Ty Fr Josiah…as an Orthodox catechumen…(transitioning from Evangelical)…I can’t even begin to tell you how good this makes me feel…the first time I learned I could pray for our loved ones who have passed on…whether or not in the Lord…I rushed to my room, fell on my knees and prayed for my beloved sister and earthy father…this was only the beginning…now I have what I call my “prayer hit list”…which keeps building, the more word gets around that I will help pray for anyone who asks…I have profound hearing loss…and I can’t have quality conversations anymore…but I sure can pray…”Lord Jesus Christ, son of God…have mercy on us sinners!”
Glory to God for the way that you DO hear! Don't ever be dissuaded or disheartened from that new faith and joy by any stumbling-block comments left anywhere by anyone.. That we can pray for the departed and that the SAINTS can truly hear us and pray for us were deeply important things for me to learn. To ask saints, such as St. Paul, to help me hear and to help me better understand what he wrote is amazing.. (i should be more diligent in doing that) ..to cross such times and distances..without a second of delay... Glory to God. Let us know what happens to you.☦☦
Stay on the Royal Path. The Lord and His Church and His Saints will gently teach you in due time.. It all will begin to make beautiful sense. Glory to God.!☦
May God bless and protect you on your journey thru Orthodox…get ready to draw closer to the Alpha and Omega…the Almighty…Lord, Jesus Christ our God…have mercy on us…and save us!
Just a share a bit on progress against my own sin (perhaps it will help?) Again and again I find how I was falling again and again to sin. When I fought against it, it seemed only a matter of time until the will diminished. Again showing my lack of faith. Until. Something occurred to me. There was an aspect of weakness I had neglected. That was the willingness to suffer. That sad state of our fallenness that to deny our sin, to actively choose the righteous way of our King, would cause us suffering, but we are told of such. I often thought of suffering caused from without, but so much less so from within. By God's grace it has helped me immensely. My will is oriented towards accepting suffering instead of forcing myself to not act sinfully. I now choose, willingly, to suffer my concupiscence and have grown from it. Best wishes-
Thank you Father for all your work. Especially being on the list of the online Orthodox “rebels” preaching truth and not ecumenism. God have mercy on us in these times
Here is something that we never realized. Jesus and the Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead. When, Jesus' Foster Father, St Joseph, died, Jesus remembered him in Prayer. Paul never said do not pray for the dead, but do not give yourselves over to grief.
2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV): “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19) About Jesus’s foster father, it can be safely assumed because Jesus grew up with Jewish traditions and customs. Like being in Soloman’s temple for the feast of the dedication and singing the Halel Psalm (which honors his mum ).
@@lindaphillips4646 thanks! another cool fun fact is that the household of Onesiphorus is mentioned again in 2 Tim 4:19. HOWEVER, 2 verses down mentions Linus, who is recorded as one of the popes in Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 3, Verse 3.
I can’t tell you how thankful I am for this, as a Roman Catholic, former evangelical Protestant , who does not and cannot accept any doctrine of purgatory as contrary to the grace of God as our source of salvation, (lest any man should boast-Ephesians), and as against the creed (the forgiveness of sins). I am an Augustinian scholar, and what you say he would be perfectly happy with. Keep preaching, Father!
You cannot deny purgatory and remain a Catholic as you're denying a dogma. Purgatory doesn't deny the necessity of God's grace for salvation as the soul is already saved, but the soul needs to do penance for past sins committed as to satisfy God's justice.
You cannot be a Catholic and deny Purgatory. You are contradicting the Pope and the Vatican, which is not acceptable and places you out of communion. If purgatory is troublesome for you, you should be Orthodox.
@@ArmandoTheCatholicYou didn't listen to what Father Josiah said, did you? The whole basis of purgatory, is based in the legal justice system of Roman Catholicism. We Orthodox don't believe in that and the Bible doesn't teach it. In Roman Catholicism, salvation is all about escaping punishment. In Orthodoxy, salvation is all about being healed. BIG difference!
Thank you for this Father Josiah. I am not Orthodox, but I am moving in that direction now and have been for a while. I have always worried about the state of my deceased mother, but having a protestant background and understanding, I came to believe that death was the end; yet, St. Paul's mention of praying for the dead always intrigued me. It was only when I bought an Orthodox prayer book that I had come to know that there is this concept for praying for the dead. I thought it was crazy, nevertheless, I started praying for my mom. After watching this video, you have fleshed out an understanding for the purpose of praying on behalf of the dead. This has given me hope and a faith in God's mercy and redeeming love that, Lord willing, can touch one beyond the grave. Thank you, Father Josiah.
"Divine Goodness conquers the idea of justice." This single sentence is really what fosters hope in forgiveness. When even you can't forgive yourself, the Love of God can. We are so small, weak and insignificant in the infinite sea of God's love. Thank you, dear Father, for your videos.
@@AnteCvitanst. Mark the apostle started the church in Egypt, in which the Coptic church has kept every tradition and teachings as that ancient church from that time. This is home to us, the apostle Jesus left us, that started our church
The doctrines of Purgatory and Mortal and Venial sin kept me and my wife from joining the Catholic Church. We were in RCIA and weeks away from coming into the Church. I just couldn’t say “Yes and Amen” to those things. Several days later the word “Orthodox” popped into my mind and I started researching it. Now, thank God, we are Orthodox. Baptized and chrismated on June 3, 2023. God bless you, Father Josiah. You played a role in our conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.
I thank the Lord for showing me your videos and a few other outspoken Fathers that have convinced me through their talks like this and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that EO is the way. I’m looking to become a catechumen here soon
Coming to a year from him falling asleep in the lord. Make sure if you can, to make a koliva, so he may be forgiven and so we can always pray for him until our time of judgement. Eternal be his memory.
I assume by referencing Revelation 20, you are referencing the Lake of Fire. Find out what that means in the original Greek and come back and talk to us. It is not what do you think it is.
This has been incredibly helpful, especially the bit on 1 Corinthians. That's been a passage I haven't had a complete rationale around in favor or against.
I think about death everyday. I understand I’m vulnerable to it, and I don’t get to decide how long I live. I don’t think of it for the fear of deliberately going to hell. I think of myself wanting to ensure I’m prepared for when my meeting with God takes place.
As a Catholic I would say that our understanding of purgatory is that our virtue of Love is perfected before entering into the beatific vision of God. I always view the "fire" as the same fire/light of God. This light convicts sinners, heals those saved from their imperfect love, and this fills the perfected soul with joy in the beatific vision.
Hi Fr Josiah. Greetings of Love, Peace, and Mercy be with, in, and through you in the Precious Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen. This was very important and helpful for All Souls to prepare. I can see clearly why the communion between the East AND the West had to be done in one soul by the Hands of God Most High in preparation for the beginning of the end. The gravity of this Holy Message is taking effect as I continue to witness... Amen
Dear Fr. Josiah, the following of what Augustine wrote: In his dread of those more serious misfortunes, the speaker disregards this life which causes him to weep and groan with its misery, and makes his entreaty: Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation [Psalms 38:1]. Let me not be among those to whom thou wilt say: Depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matthew 25:41]. Nor chastise me in thy wrath [Psalms 38:1]. Do thou cleanse me in this life and make me such that I shall have no need to pass through the purifying flames prepared for those who will be saved yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. Why? Is it not because in this world they are building upon a foundation of wood, hay, stubble? If they constructed with gold, silver, precious stones, they would be safe from both kinds of fire, not only from the everlasting fire which will torment the wicked forever and ever, but also from that which will purify those who are to be saved by fire. For we are told: He himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. And because of the phrase shall be saved, that fire is not taken seriously enough. Clearly, although they will be saved by fire, yet that fire will be more grievous than anything a man is capable of bearing in this life. Augustine: Discourse on Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) 37.3 English translation from Ancient Christian Writers, Vol. 30, page 330-331 While Augustine did not use the word purgatory he distinguished two kinds of fire, the everlasting fire that will torment the wicked forever and the purifying fire.
The Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem (1672) declared: "The souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed, especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most, which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[ Isn't this viewpoint of the Orthodox Church literally the exact same concept as purgatory?
During my 3 years as a Protestant, praying for the dead was a topic that confused me. I did not understand why people were so opposed to it, when nothing in the Bible seems to oppose it. The only thing I heard that resembled an argument was "it won't make a difference", which doesn't sound like a prohibition at all, and for which no scriptural backing was provided either.
I was confused about how on the one hand, the Orthodox believe that God being merciful means that punishment is no longer necessary, hence lack of a need of a purging fire, but on the other hand the soul goes to Hades to be punished for a time if the fruits of repentance have not been brought forth, or that a soul upon death faces tribulation by not going to be immediately with God. How is the Orthodox understanding different apart from the place or non place which the suffering for sins occurs for those who are not ready on their journey to be with God yet after death?
Father I have Seen , and been approached by souls in purgatory. I have subsequently had Gregorian masses said for those souls, offered sacrifices and was immediately shown the gratitude of the souls who benefited from the sacrifice of the mass being said on their behalf. So yes.. I know that purgatory exists. The sin is forgiven but the temporal stain must be cleaned. Gods perfect mercy is tempered only by his justice and Nothing impure may enter into the kingdom of heaven before it is renewed and made 2:20 spotless before the lord.
I agree. As a former Catholic who was Protestant for a while, thinking about even praying for the dead is not something one does. This is a topic that is uncomfortable and as you rightly said, often overlooked.
We, Catholics, don'' t pray for the dead because only body is dead and soul lives for ever. Soul is immortal and lives after the death of thd body.. if we die in sinns , we go to purgatory to clean our soul and it doesn'' matter if Lord Jesus has died on the Cross. He forgave our sins on the Cross but it doesn't mean that we go to heaven. We had a Free Will given by God and we are responsible for what we have done . Purgatory DOES EXIST AND IT IS NOT EMPTY. There are many people and they wait for prayers . If you don'' t believe in purgatory , you will be totally surprised about it's existance after the death.
@@KingaHorsztynskahonest question...Jesus talked a little bit about heaven and sure talked a lot more about hell, I don't recall him talking about purgatory. Outside of second Maccabees, what scripture references would you have in the Old testament, and even knew that would really pinpoint purgatory?
The way I see it, the Latin of doctrine of purgatory is essentially equivalent to the Orthodox idea of temporary hell/hades, especially if we understand the “fire” and “time” in purgatory to be allegorical.
As A Catholic, I've much respect and admiration for my Orthodox brothers and sisters. I like the Eternal Memory prayer which is prayed for the departed. Praying for our departed loved ones simply means that we ask God, the creator of life, to do what he has promised. To remember the departed souls and bring them into His mercy and faithfulness and Infinite Love for All Humanity! It is therefore, not wrong to ask God to have mercy upon His creation, which we All Are.
“But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.” Hebrews 9:27
First Corinthians 3:10-15 refers to the works (i.e., the converts) of gospel preachers and teachers. Paul warns teachers to be careful how they teach. Their proselytes could become "gold, silver and precious stones." But it's also possible some may falter and become "hay and straw." In this latter case, though the teacher will be saved, he will suffer loss (grief) over the souls who have not proven to be worthy.
I think that’s still different from Purgatory, and toll houses are for Orthodox Christians only. Might I also add that Toll Houses are not dogma, and is a debated topic in Orthodoxy
Many saints and theologians in the Catholic Church have speculated about the specifics of purgatory…but the speculation in those specifics is not necessarily “the teaching of the Catholic Church.” It’s interesting to note that Eastern Catholic Churches who share theological and spiritual tradition with the Orthodox generally don’t use the word purgatory nor are they required to in order to be in full communion with Rome.All they must accept is..1)there is a state of transition or transformation or “purification” en route to Heaven and 2)Our prayers help those in that condition. I personally think the differences in this area between Orthodox and Catholic is really just semantics.
@@jimmysheehan5496That's very uncharitable. To those who actually know the Faith the differences are major. This is one reason why the RCC as a whole is incoherent contradicting theologies.
I'm new Christian. I attend an Anglican church. I guess we're technically Protestant, but we pray for the departed at every service. We also don't believe in the pope or purgatory. In many ways I think we are closer to the Eastern Orthadox Church than the Roman church is.
Ortho - Tardy - D 🥴 This type or UA-cam orthodoxy exists only to be Not Roman Catholic or any of the 23 or so Rites that exist making up the entire Catholic Church.
Nothing in Jesus' sermon on the mount can be interpreted as taking place in the afterlife. His teaching was with regards to how people ought to live in this life. That being the case, Mt 5:26 refers to the trouble one should expect to face IN THIS LIFE, if he does not forgive his brother from the heart.
Purgatory is Purifying Love. The souls are immersed in the light and fire of God:s mercy and infinite love and holiness. Purification not from Sin, but from attachment and effect From Sin. A child is outside hitting baseballs with a bat. He breaks a neighbor's window with 1 of them. Although the neighbor forgives him, the child must make restitution for what he did. He must pay for the damage he caused. Sorrow is not always enough, a firm purpose of amendment is also necessary. Purgatory is not a prison, that's a medieval summation. Hebrews 12:29 states For Our God is a consuming fire.. The fire of justice snd mercy
The baseball story doesn’t really prove anything…..it’s just a cute analogy to help exemplify a teaching that may or not be true. A Protestant could easily refute that analogy by saying “nope Jesus took care of that already; He paid the price for the broken window so we don’t have to”.
@@chrisobrien6254Thank you for saying that. The minute I heard that analogy. I knew it was wrong. Roman Catholics are fond of talking about "paying the price" and other such stuff until it cuts across their private agenda. And this Treasury of Merit stuff is utter nonsense. If comes from a legal basis and legal payment, then what more do you add to what Jesus Christ has done on the Cross? This is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. For Orthodoxy, it's not about legal payments and punishment. It's about healing us and healing our broken nature.
a roman catholic here. it seems to me, that purgatory is seen as "a place or process", so there is an ambiguity in the concept. if seen as a process - this roman teaching sounds very similar to what you said about st marcs teaching, doesn't it?
As an observant Jew, Our Lord would have believed in Purgatory. Now, can we see evidence of this in His teachings? The answer is, yes. He teaches it both implicitly and explicitly. Implicitly In Matt. 12:31-32 we read the following, 31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Now, Our Lord suggests that some sins can be forgiven since He states, "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that some sins can be forgiven in the next life. Let's eliminate a couple of possibilities. He cannot be referring to Heaven since those in Heaven are already forgiven and He cannot be referring to Hell since those in Hell are beyond forgiveness. The question now becomes, how is a person forgiven in the next life and where does this forgiveness take place? The only answer is Purgatory. Explicitly In Luke 12: 40-48 we read the following, 40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." What can we gather form this passage? 1. This passage is referring to the time of death as is evidenced from v. 40 2. In verses 43-44 if the servant has been faithful to the master then he gets a good reward(Heaven). 3. If the servant was not faithful to the master then he will get Hell(verses 45-46. 4. Our Lord also offers two other possibilities. In verses 47 and 48 one servant got a severe beating while the other did not get a severe beating. These beatings are finite in nature. If this is not in reference to either Heaven or Hell then where are these beatings carried out in the afterlife? The only answer is Purgatory.
Jesus tells us about what happened on the death of `the rich man and a beggar named Lazarus`. An angel carried Lazarus to Abraham's side, while the rich man ended up in hell. To the rich man in hell, Jesus explained that "a great chasm has been fixed between heaven and hell, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross over to us from where you are." (Luke 16:26). If anyone wants to properly understand the doctrine of Purgatory, then I recommend Saint Catherine of Genoa's treatise, "Fire of Love!", that is, if you want to understand the unfathomable depths of God’s love.
Lets be honest. There are people we all know whose lives were messy, but not deserving of hell. They are saved but still need to be cleaned up a bit before they can fully participate with the saints. Purgatory is the hospital for the soul damaged by sin. Whether this takes a second or a hundred thousand years is meaningless in an eternal realm.
It is clear purgatory has never been explained as a merciful, healing and loving process. Catholic do not believe it is a place, but a process. Read St John of the Cross or St Theresa of Avila of the stages of the conversion experience known as the purgative way that begins in this life but continues on in the afterlife like as part of the unitive experience or marriage of the soul to Christ. Your explanation is so Calvinistic, punitive and not loving! Not loving like the Roman Catholic explanation given to us by the saints. I don't believe you articulate the Roman Catholic position at all. Best just to explain what the Orthodox believe and let the Roman Catholics explain their own religion.
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” Corinthians 5:12
Not sure if you meant 1st or 2nd Corinthians. It's wrong though. 1 Cor. 5:12: "12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?" 2 Cor 5:12: "12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart."
loved the video but as a "protestant" those of us in the confessional Lutheran church do pray for the dead and our confessions say that it is of great benefit>
“He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.” Isaiah 48:10
God spoke to Abraham of a purification that would be necessary. Hebrews 12:29 states For Our God Is a consuming fire. The fire of Purgatory is not punitive, rather it's purifying. When a man sinned, in the Old Covenant, He had to separate himself from the congregation and go to purify himself and then return to the Temple with a sin offering. The fires of Purgatory are not removed from God, the souls there are deeply immersed into His great mercy
Also, st john chrysostom wrote in the 5th century, hundreds of years before the RC Church clarified the doctrine of purgatory. st john chrysostom’s statement on divine Justice do not contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory . Yes - the Catholic Church has been clarifying dogma for 2000 years - the Immaculate Conception, confession, the communion of saints All Christian Churches have done this ( Southern Baptists in the US are making a “profession of faith” right now) but not all have infallibility
min 20:30 Souls go to prison? Like in Mat 5:25-26. Another reference of Purgatory.
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17:57 min and I get confused. Roman Catholics believe that purgatory will NOT save anyone, but cleanse them from sins. Salvation or damnation is determined during the time when one is still alive, and once death comes to a soul, there is nothing else to be done for their salvation. A soul is purgatory s a soul already saved. I never heard of any teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stating that purgatory is for the salvation of the souls. Maybe I understood it wrong in the video, please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently (almost 4 years ago) converted to the Roman Catholic faith and I am still learning. I am not able to do fully participate in the faith (mass and other rituals) as my husband has yet to start the annulment process in order for me to become fully initiated. It is a long path for me. But I truly appreciate the videos of Father Josiah. Thank you! Orthodox faith is beautiful!
At about 12:30 you lay out your main issue it seems, which is that Catholics say purgatory isn't just a state but a place with a unique fire. That contradicts everything I've heard on this as a Catholic. For example, Pope St. Gregory the Great said, “The same fire torments the damned and purifies the elect.” and St Robert Bellarmine said, "Almost all theologians teach that the damned in Hell and the souls in Purgatory, suffer the action of the same fire." The way I hear it described is that since God is everywhere and in all things, the fire of His love will be experienced as a beatific vision, a purging fire, or torment, depending on the person and the time. And generally, it is said to be more of a mystery, which could be a state more than a physical place. So not sure we are in that much disagreement here.
I learned from Dr. Taylor Marshall that Purgatory is in hell. I never knew that. Blew my mind. According to him, I guess according to Catholic teaching, there are 4 domains of hell: Gehenna (spelling?), Purgatory, the Abode of the Fathers (empty, this is where Jesus descended to when He died on the cross), and the Abode of children (I think it's called, also known as limbo). Maybe Orthodox and Catholics do have very opposing views on the issue of Purgatory, or maybe they don't. All above my pay grade. But from my uneducated (theology) ears it sounds almost similar to one person saying tomatoe and the other saying tomato. I could be completely wrong. That is cool too.
@@brewcity2317 That's another point I was going to make. This Orthodox priest says Catholics believe in a "third place." Catholic theology is pretty clear that there are no "third places." There is inside the Kingdom of Heaven and outside. Being outside of it doesn't mean it's always permanent though, like with purgatory or the Limbo of the Fathers, which you mentioned. I would disagree with Taylor Marshall though a bit that there are four areas of hell. That was a Medieval teaching that was widespread but not used before then and isn't used much now. There could be 40 areas of hell. We don't know. Some of them are clearly temporary, and some even have pleasure, like the limbo of the children, which is supposed to have "complete natural happiness," according to Aquinas, meaning the happiness is mediated through creatures but no supernatural happiness directly from the beatific vision like is experienced inside the walls. Limbo of infants is not official teaching, but it's also not rejected. I heartily agree with this priest that we should pray for all souls, alive or dead, that if they are outside the walls of the kingdom, that it will not be permanent and not be all torment. I'm a bit of a "hopeful universalist" myself, but I do accept that being permanently on the wrong side of the walls is possible, maybe even likely for some.
The orthodoxy was taken over by Byzantine emperors... But its ok.. i love orthodoxy as a catholic.. Hope we reunite..! Those against it are from the evil!
I appreciate your teaching. How is one to understand the teaching of toll booths in orthodoxy? As a catholic it occurs as a purgatorial substitute. Luke's gospel in chapter 16 mentions 4 outcomes, 2 of which mention beatings that I understand as purgatorial. Please comment and God bless.
Purgatory (βασανιστήριον καθαριστήριον) is a temporary state and a place where the souls of those who are found in grace by special judgment, but are not pure enough in the sight of God, are purified until the final judgment. In ancient Christianity, the idea of purgatory was essentially denied by no one. Aërius in the 4th century only questioned the efficacy of intercession for the dead; likewise later the Waldensians. In the system of other heretics, there was hardly room for purification; as with the Manicheans, Gnostics, and Cathars, who only acknowledged the redeemed and the damned. Since the schism, the Greeks have stubbornly denied the possibility of purification, in opposition to the cardinal teaching of the great fathers of Alexandria, but not the punitive sufferings, and intercession for the dead. Since the 13th century, some of them have denied the existence of purgatory. The position of the Greeks implies the idea that the soul's fate is only ultimately decided at the Last Judgment; their sufferings and the prayers for them prepare a merciful judgment for them. The Christian tradition indeed bears enough witness when it prays steadfastly for the deceased from the beginning. It was a profound conviction that injustice would be done to the martyr who prayed for him. But that someone should pray for the damned was ruled out; therefore, they could only pray for those who were not yet before God, but were preparing to go there; on whom intercession could still have an effect. From this kernel of practical confession grew the formal doctrine of purgatory; meanwhile, it had to contend with more than one foreign element (Bellarmin. 1, 11.). The first explicit witness is the author of Acta Pauli (around 160): Thecla prays for the deceased Falconilla that she may reach the place of the righteous (Acta Pauli 28.). Tertullian speaks especially firmly about the necessity of intercession for the dead and the efficacy of the Mass offered for them (Tertul. Cor. mil. 3; Monog. 10; Anima 58; Resur. 42.). The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitas (probably written by Tertullian) contains a charming vision: Perpetua sees her seven-year-old brother, Dinocrates, who died of cancer without baptism, in a dark place, with a distorted face, in great thirst. "This caused me great grief. I woke up and was aware that he was suffering. But I was filled with hope that I might be able to procure him some relief. I prayed for him night and day, and with tears persistently entreated God to be gracious to hear me. One day when we were suffering in the hard prison, I had another vision: The same place from which I saw Dinocrates step forward was now very bright; my brother was in clean and good clothes; on his face, where the cancer had been, you could only see a scab. The water vessel (which in the previous vision was much higher than the boy's stature) was now so low that he could easily reach it, and on the edge stood a full drinking cup. When Dinocrates quenched his thirst from it, he went off to play like a child. I woke up and recognized that he had been freed from his punishment." Cyprian speaks quite clearly (Cypr. Epist. 55, 20; cf. 59, 18; Mortal. 26.): "It is one thing to ask for forgiveness, another to enter glory. It is one thing to improve for sins through long torments and to purify oneself through prolonged fire; another is to cast off all punishments by suffering (martyrdom)."
According to Clement of Alexandria (Clemens Al. Strom. VII 12, 78.), true gnosis includes being merciful to those dead who are still atoning for their sins. According to Origen (Origen. Princip. II 10, 4-6; 11, 3; in Num hom. 26; in Mt hom. 30; Cels. IV 13.), every soul passes through the fire after death; the wicked are engulfed by it, the righteous are saved. This sketchy overview sufficiently refutes the view of rationalist dogma historians as if the doctrine of purification had crept into the Church through Origen. However, it cannot be denied that Origen mixes this teaching with apocatastatic elements, just like his great disciple, Gregory of Nyssa (Nyssen. Cat. 8; Anima et resurr.). The great Greek church fathers (Basil. in Is 9, 19; Chrysost. in Phil hom. 3, 4; in 1 Cor hom. 41, 4; Cyril. Hier. Catech. 5, 9; Epiphan. Haer. 75 (against Aërius); Cyril. Al. wrote a separate work "Against those who boldly claim that they do not need to celebrate Mass for the faithful deceased" M 76, 1423.) otherwise agree with the Latins in the belief that prayers are needed for the dead who are purified in suffering. The Latin teaching is rich and clear. Ambrose, whose eschatology is justly praised among the initiated, expressly teaches that the imperfect, who are not damned, go to the place of purification after the particular judgment, where they must be purified with sufferings; the remaining living can help them with prayers, Masses, alms, and funeral feasts (Ambr. De bono mortis 45-8.). Ambrose, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster believe that all believers will eventually be saved after such purifications. Saint Augustine speaks much and definitively (August. Confess. IX 11-13; Enchir. 69 109-10; Civ. Dei XXI 13, 16; 26, 2; XXVI 2; XXVII 5; Gen. Manich. II 20; Sermo 172, 2, 2.); his disciple, Caesarius of Arles (Caesar. Arel. Sermo 104, 1.) precisely states who awaits purgatory; Pope Gregory the Great (Gregor. M. Moral. IX 34; Dial. IV 39.) emphasizes the "fire" of purification. Since then, the doctrine of purgatory has been unanimous among the Latins; the Greeks gradually deviated from the common ancient tradition.
There will be an intermediate state after death. It is non physical, right here beside us living beings. You can still pray to loved ones and some of us can receive messages direct through telepathic methods. I have had several after life communications. Unclear to me how long the intermediate state lasts before they are called to the next chapter.
Purification after death of the soul (outside of temporal space) those not condemned to hell after personal judgement is normal. St Paul talks about purification as by fire which is process like a refiners fire. Prayers for the dead presumes this. The prayers and offerings to the temple in the case of the Maccabees witnesses the dead can be assisted by our prayers since they cannot do for themselves as time has finished. That they may be delivered from their sins indicates a process after death. The misunderstanding of Protestant deformers is based on straw men arguments. Time does not exist after death.
That passage is not the only one that implies the existence of a purgatory condition, there are more in the gospels (Matthew 5:26, Matthew 12:31-32), the one of the Macabees quoted at the begining by Father Josiah, etc.. As well St Gregory Nissa talks about it. By the way: Father Josiah complains in his video about an orthodox perspective on roman catholicism, that St Thomas Aquinas called the orthodox church "the greeks", but he does not stop to call to us "the latins". That is not a good example.
Please forgive me if I misunderstood…so is they’re a chance of our unsaved family members who have passed to receive Gods grace and mercy and be saved through our prayers and deeds?
When Fr. Josiah talks about the Protestant belief after death about the immediacy of going to heaven or hell why did he say “where they can fall out of paradise or get out of Hades” ? Wouldn’t that be the same thing as going to heaven or hell? Is he just reiterating or is there some distinction that he’s drawing here?
No. In Orthodox belief, after we die, and after the particular judgment, we all go to the same place (Hades/She'ol) to await the Resurrection and final judgment. All go to be in the Presence of God. It can be blissful for those in communion with God (Bosom of Abraham), or torture for those not in communion with Him. After the Resurrection and final judgment is when one goes to either the new earth/heaven or hell (Gehenna). So the Protestant idea that we go right on to heaven or hell for eternity isn't shared in Orthodoxy.
Chrysosthom and Mark of Ephesus are true saints guided by the light of divine wisdom! The dogma of Purgatory is not so easily explained away though. Much-loved Catholic saints have recounted visions of Purgatory and were told by angels the name of the place was indeed Purgatory, egs. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John Bosco. To explain away those visions would mean the angels were devils in disguise; that may be true in the latter case of John Bosco as the angel guide was said to have preached to him: "disobedience is the root of all evil" which clearly contradicts Scripture (1 Tim. 6:10).
The kneeling prayers for those in Hades, the soul's journey after death, the visions of the tollhouses, etc. all add up to a de facto belief in purgatory. Lump this one on the No Original Sin, No Assumption, No Transubstantiation pile for me.
As an ex-Mormon who hasn't really yet found a church home, I find your videos very interesting and will be subscribing, but I do have to say that it really caught my attention (and not in the best way) when you labeled Origen an "early church heretic," considering he wasn't considered one until more than 300 years postmortem, under quite suspicious (as I understand it) circumstances.
As an Orthodox Christian I've been trying to understand St. Gregory "on the soul and the ressurection" which seems to express purgatory as well as a hopeful universalism. I'd love to see you or someone explain this work, maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Being one of the three holy Heirarchs and the older sister being a teacher of both him and St. Basil. That seems troubling for our position.
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Ty Fr Josiah…as an Orthodox catechumen…(transitioning from Evangelical)…I can’t even begin to tell you how good this makes me feel…the first time I learned I could pray for our loved ones who have passed on…whether or not in the Lord…I rushed to my room, fell on my knees and prayed for my beloved sister and earthy father…this was only the beginning…now I have what I call my “prayer hit list”…which keeps building, the more word gets around that I will help pray for anyone who asks…I have profound hearing loss…and I can’t have quality conversations anymore…but I sure can pray…”Lord Jesus Christ, son of God…have mercy on us sinners!”
Glad you found Orthodoxy. God be with us. ☦️
God bless you!
Glory to God
Glory to God for the way that you DO hear! Don't ever be dissuaded or disheartened from that new faith and joy by any stumbling-block comments left anywhere by anyone..
That we can pray for the departed and that the SAINTS can truly hear us and pray for us were deeply important things for me to learn. To ask saints, such as St. Paul, to help me hear and to help me better understand what he wrote is amazing.. (i should be more diligent in doing that) ..to cross such times and distances..without a second of delay...
Glory to God.
Let us know what happens to you.☦☦
Please pray for the salvation of my dad Zhelyo who passed away 😢😢
As a Catholic, I appreciate this video. Thank you for elucidating the Orthodox position on such an important issue, Father Josiah Trenham.
I am evangelical and am moving toward Orthodoxy. I am still stumbling and struggling with some parts but hope to learn and overcome.
God bless you on your path my friend ❤️🙏🏻🌈
God bless you on your journey to Orthodoxy. 🙏☦️
Stay on the Royal Path. The Lord and His Church and His Saints will gently teach you in due time.. It all will begin to make beautiful sense.
Glory to God.!☦
Take it slowly.
May God bless and protect you on your journey thru Orthodox…get ready to draw closer to the Alpha and Omega…the Almighty…Lord, Jesus Christ our God…have mercy on us…and save us!
Thank you, Father. St. Marks quotes are a comfort to the soul of a young man struggling with past sin.
Just a share a bit on progress against my own sin (perhaps it will help?)
Again and again I find how I was falling again and again to sin. When I fought against it, it seemed only a matter of time until the will diminished. Again showing my lack of faith.
Until.
Something occurred to me. There was an aspect of weakness I had neglected. That was the willingness to suffer. That sad state of our fallenness that to deny our sin, to actively choose the righteous way of our King, would cause us suffering, but we are told of such. I often thought of suffering caused from without, but so much less so from within.
By God's grace it has helped me immensely. My will is oriented towards accepting suffering instead of forcing myself to not act sinfully. I now choose, willingly, to suffer my concupiscence and have grown from it.
Best wishes-
@@-SRM- great words, thank you. I am sure they will be of immense help to many including myself.
Thank you Father for all your work. Especially being on the list of the online Orthodox “rebels” preaching truth and not ecumenism. God have mercy on us in these times
who else is on the list? and we must remember that it is the ecumenists who are the "rebels". True orthodoxy has remained the same
@@mingus444_gaming would say fr.Spyridon Bailey, and maybe Orthodox Ethos
Excuse me brother but i dont know any other channels in English,im Greek
Here is something that we never realized. Jesus and the Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead. When, Jesus' Foster Father, St Joseph, died, Jesus remembered him in Prayer. Paul never said do not pray for the dead, but do not give yourselves over to grief.
Biblical reference please
2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV): “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19)
About Jesus’s foster father, it can be safely assumed because Jesus grew up with Jewish traditions and customs. Like being in Soloman’s temple for the feast of the dedication and singing the Halel Psalm (which honors his mum ).
@@marcuschung2 thank you..
I never had realized what St. Paul was saying there. That he was praying for someone departed..
@@lindaphillips4646 thanks! another cool fun fact is that the household of Onesiphorus is mentioned again in 2 Tim 4:19. HOWEVER, 2 verses down mentions Linus, who is recorded as one of the popes in Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 3, Verse 3.
@@marcuschung2 so? the papacy of RC wasn't the papacy bacl then, term pope or papa was used by most bishops back then.
I can’t tell you how thankful I am for this, as a Roman Catholic, former evangelical Protestant , who does not and cannot accept any doctrine of purgatory as contrary to the grace of God as our source of salvation, (lest any man should boast-Ephesians), and as against the creed (the forgiveness of sins). I am an Augustinian scholar, and what you say he would be perfectly happy with. Keep preaching, Father!
You cannot deny purgatory and remain a Catholic as you're denying a dogma. Purgatory doesn't deny the necessity of God's grace for salvation as the soul is already saved, but the soul needs to do penance for past sins committed as to satisfy God's justice.
You cannot be a Catholic and deny Purgatory. You are contradicting the Pope and the Vatican, which is not acceptable and places you out of communion. If purgatory is troublesome for you, you should be Orthodox.
@@ArmandoTheCatholicYou didn't listen to what Father Josiah said, did you? The whole basis of purgatory, is based in the legal justice system of Roman Catholicism. We Orthodox don't believe in that and the Bible doesn't teach it.
In Roman Catholicism, salvation is all about escaping punishment. In Orthodoxy, salvation is all about being healed. BIG difference!
@@IrishEddie317you still can't be Catholic and deny Purgatory.
@christopherpavesi7245 I am not Catholic. I belong to the Church which Jesus founded upon the Apostles - Holy Orthodoxy.
You where a huge help in me finding the true Church. My family and myself are forever grateful.
Thank you for this Father Josiah. I am not Orthodox, but I am moving in that direction now and have been for a while. I have always worried about the state of my deceased mother, but having a protestant background and understanding, I came to believe that death was the end; yet, St. Paul's mention of praying for the dead always intrigued me. It was only when I bought an Orthodox prayer book that I had come to know that there is this concept for praying for the dead. I thought it was crazy, nevertheless, I started praying for my mom. After watching this video, you have fleshed out an understanding for the purpose of praying on behalf of the dead. This has given me hope and a faith in God's mercy and redeeming love that, Lord willing, can touch one beyond the grave. Thank you, Father Josiah.
"Divine Goodness conquers the idea of justice." This single sentence is really what fosters hope in forgiveness. When even you can't forgive yourself, the Love of God can. We are so small, weak and insignificant in the infinite sea of God's love. Thank you, dear Father, for your videos.
Thank you Father, as a Catholic looking into Orthodoxy, you have answered so many 'bogus' issues (as you call them) I have had about Rome.
As a new Roman Catholic I had to affirm the teaching of purgatory but now I see the problem with that
As a former Catholic, I invite you to come all the way home. Orthodoxy awaits you.
@@IrishEddie317 Home? What are the names of Orthodox apostols?
@@AnteCvitanst. Mark the apostle started the church in Egypt, in which the Coptic church has kept every tradition and teachings as that ancient church from that time. This is home to us, the apostle Jesus left us, that started our church
Thank you, father! This helps many people and adds to the catechism of we Orthodox.
💗☦️
This man keeps me grounded! Healthy!
Glory to God for his true Church bearing good works. Father please as the Theotokos to intercede when we just can’t take it anymore.
The doctrines of Purgatory and Mortal and Venial sin kept me and my wife from joining the Catholic Church. We were in RCIA and weeks away from coming into the Church. I just couldn’t say “Yes and Amen” to those things. Several days later the word “Orthodox” popped into my mind and I started researching it. Now, thank God, we are Orthodox. Baptized and chrismated on June 3, 2023. God bless you, Father Josiah. You played a role in our conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.
Your testimony brings so much joy!i am also glad you remember when you became a member of Christ's Holy Body and took the chrism of the Holy Spirit!
I am a Roman Catholic and I have Seen souls in purgatory.
That was an amazing teaching. Thank you.
Great reflection dear Father, as always. May God grant you many years
I thank the Lord for showing me your videos and a few other outspoken Fathers that have convinced me through their talks like this and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that EO is the way. I’m looking to become a catechumen here soon
Please pray for the salvation of my dad Zhelyo who passed away...😢
Coming to a year from him falling asleep in the lord. Make sure if you can, to make a koliva, so he may be forgiven and so we can always pray for him until our time of judgement. Eternal be his memory.
Always a blessing to hear your holy words on the Faith. Thank you, Father.
These have been very comforting. Thank you Father.
Yep, 2 Maccabees speaks of praying for the souls of the dead.
Your discussion was very helpful, even comforting. God bless and keep you.
Glory to God! 🙏
I am sure I will not end there..praise glory to Christ..your Rapture..so your saying Revelation is a fable...Rev.20..I. Pray for u sir..
I assume by referencing Revelation 20, you are referencing the Lake of Fire. Find out what that means in the original Greek and come back and talk to us. It is not what do you think it is.
Excellent video Abouna, thank you and God bless you!
Yes Father, this is a great summary, thank you.
Thank you for this very informative and edifying word Fr. Josiah.
This has been incredibly helpful, especially the bit on 1 Corinthians. That's been a passage I haven't had a complete rationale around in favor or against.
So deep gives one much to consider, reflect upon, and examine motive…
I think about death everyday. I understand I’m vulnerable to it, and I don’t get to decide how long I live. I don’t think of it for the fear of deliberately going to hell. I think of myself wanting to ensure I’m prepared for when my meeting with God takes place.
Thank you Father. So very helpful!
Thank you father. In answer to your question, yes, it has been very helpful. I have always wondered about this.
Thank you Father ☦. Highly recommend the Nicene Creed Course 🙏
I knew a Catholic nun and priest who said Purgatory is like a heavenly hospital. That made sense to me.
Anyone can say anything to make an idea easier to swallow. Doesn't mean it's true.
Heavenly hospital where you're punished for leftover menial sins? That does not sound like a hospital
@@ninjason57none of the nonsense that heretic Protestants come out with is true !
Thank you for this. Not yet Orthodox, but this was very fascinating and enlightening.
As a Catholic I would say that our understanding of purgatory is that our virtue of Love is perfected before entering into the beatific vision of God. I always view the "fire" as the same fire/light of God. This light convicts sinners, heals those saved from their imperfect love, and this fills the perfected soul with joy in the beatific vision.
Hi Fr Josiah. Greetings of Love, Peace, and Mercy be with, in, and through you in the Precious Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen. This was very important and helpful for All Souls to prepare. I can see clearly why the communion between the East AND the West had to be done in one soul by the Hands of God Most High in preparation for the beginning of the end. The gravity of this Holy Message is taking effect as I continue to witness... Amen
This was helpful. Thank you .
Dear Fr. Josiah, the following of what Augustine wrote:
In his dread of those more serious misfortunes, the speaker disregards this life which causes him to weep and groan with its misery, and makes his entreaty: Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation [Psalms 38:1]. Let me not be among those to whom thou wilt say: Depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matthew 25:41]. Nor chastise me in thy wrath [Psalms 38:1]. Do thou cleanse me in this life and make me such that I shall have no need to pass through the purifying flames prepared for those who will be saved yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. Why? Is it not because in this world they are building upon a foundation of wood, hay, stubble? If they constructed with gold, silver, precious stones, they would be safe from both kinds of fire, not only from the everlasting fire which will torment the wicked forever and ever, but also from that which will purify those who are to be saved by fire. For we are told: He himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. And because of the phrase shall be saved, that fire is not taken seriously enough. Clearly, although they will be saved by fire, yet that fire will be more grievous than anything a man is capable of bearing in this life.
Augustine: Discourse on Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) 37.3
English translation from Ancient Christian Writers, Vol. 30, page 330-331
While Augustine did not use the word purgatory he distinguished two kinds of fire, the everlasting fire that will torment the wicked forever and the purifying fire.
Thank you for that. It is pretty clear-cut, but some just crossover parts of the Bible that don’t fit their narrative.
This was answered in the video lesson.
@@TheB1nary no, he denied that Augustine taught such thing
He did say if it is possibly found in a father or two that it is a small minority position that shouldn’t be dogma.
@@cherryswirlchale9511 is there minimum number to make something a dogma?
The Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem (1672) declared: "The souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed, especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most, which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[
Isn't this viewpoint of the Orthodox Church literally the exact same concept as purgatory?
Don't expect an answer. :-)
Thank you father! Your videos are a godsends.
During my 3 years as a Protestant, praying for the dead was a topic that confused me. I did not understand why people were so opposed to it, when nothing in the Bible seems to oppose it. The only thing I heard that resembled an argument was "it won't make a difference", which doesn't sound like a prohibition at all, and for which no scriptural backing was provided either.
cool video. Many thanks for posting that.
I was confused about how on the one hand, the Orthodox believe that God being merciful means that punishment is no longer necessary, hence lack of a need of a purging fire, but on the other hand the soul goes to Hades to be punished for a time if the fruits of repentance have not been brought forth, or that a soul upon death faces tribulation by not going to be immediately with God. How is the Orthodox understanding different apart from the place or non place which the suffering for sins occurs for those who are not ready on their journey to be with God yet after death?
Thank you father I have been looking for and needed to hear this teaching and contrast, Glory to the Triune God
Father I have Seen , and been approached by souls in purgatory. I have subsequently had Gregorian masses said for those souls, offered sacrifices and was immediately shown the gratitude of the souls who benefited from the sacrifice of the mass being said on their behalf.
So yes.. I know that purgatory exists. The sin is forgiven but the temporal stain must be cleaned. Gods perfect mercy is tempered only by his justice and Nothing impure may enter into the kingdom of heaven before it is renewed and made 2:20 spotless before the lord.
I agree. As a former Catholic who was Protestant for a while, thinking about even praying for the dead is not something one does. This is a topic that is uncomfortable and as you rightly said, often overlooked.
We, Catholics, don'' t pray for the dead because only body is dead and soul lives for ever. Soul is immortal and lives after the death of thd body.. if we die in sinns , we go to purgatory to clean our soul and it doesn'' matter if Lord Jesus has died on the Cross. He forgave our sins on the Cross but it doesn't mean that we go to heaven. We had a Free Will given by God and we are responsible for what we have done . Purgatory DOES EXIST AND IT IS NOT EMPTY. There are many people and they wait for prayers . If you don'' t believe in purgatory , you will be totally surprised about it's existance after the death.
@@KingaHorsztynskahonest question...Jesus talked a little bit about heaven and sure talked a lot more about hell, I don't recall him talking about purgatory. Outside of second Maccabees, what scripture references would you have in the Old testament, and even knew that would really pinpoint purgatory?
It is most unfortunate for your deceased loved ones and also for yourself.. that you believe thusly
The way I see it, the Latin of doctrine of purgatory is essentially equivalent to the Orthodox idea of temporary hell/hades, especially if we understand the “fire” and “time” in purgatory to be allegorical.
I think the "Deal" Christ gave to the thief on the cross that fateful day would be my first talking point in any apologetic discussion.
As A Catholic, I've much respect and admiration for my Orthodox brothers and sisters.
I like the Eternal Memory prayer which is prayed for the departed.
Praying for our departed loved ones simply means that we ask God, the creator of life, to do what he has promised.
To remember the departed souls and bring them into His mercy and faithfulness and Infinite Love for All Humanity!
It is therefore, not wrong to ask God to have mercy upon His creation, which we All Are.
“It is appointed unto men once to die, there after the judgement. “
Why do you pray for the souls then?
“But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.” Hebrews 9:27
That's not Hebrews 9:27. This is:
"27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"
@@LadyMariajudgement does Not exclude the infinite mercy of purification .
@@Alfieruben-j1l Irrelevant. I merely put the correct Bible verse, nothing more.
@@LadyMaria irrelevant is it lol. Ah but you’ll find out… oh and I’d watch that pride .
To deal with death, I decide on the bible verse for my tombstone and act on it.
That's an interesting saying
Hebrews 9v27
It is appointed for men once to die, and then the judgement
Those who reject Father God’s creations are condaming their own soul 😢
Repent and amend one's ways
Amen 🙏
“Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:26
That's about the end of age. Not purgatory.
@@LadyMariaHow do you know that ? You are Wrong by the way
Will you do a video on the Particular Judgement Father? If you could, it'd be greatly appreciated. ☦️
Whats difference between purgatory and toll houses?
First Corinthians 3:10-15 refers to the works (i.e., the converts) of gospel preachers and teachers. Paul warns teachers to be careful how they teach. Their proselytes could become "gold, silver and precious stones." But it's also possible some may falter and become "hay and straw." In this latter case, though the teacher will be saved, he will suffer loss (grief) over the souls who have not proven to be worthy.
As a Catholic, who has believed in the Church's teaching on this, I'm not here to debate nor argue the point.
Nor should you. You should simply receive thisreflect and discuss it with your priest. May God lead you to the truth. God bless you.
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What about toll houses?
I think that’s still different from Purgatory, and toll houses are for Orthodox Christians only.
Might I also add that Toll Houses are not dogma, and is a debated topic in Orthodoxy
Many saints and theologians in the Catholic Church have speculated about the specifics of purgatory…but the speculation in those specifics is not necessarily “the teaching of the Catholic Church.”
It’s interesting to note that Eastern Catholic Churches who share theological and spiritual tradition with the Orthodox generally don’t use the word purgatory nor are they required to in order to be in full communion with Rome.All they must accept is..1)there is a state of transition or transformation or “purification” en route to Heaven and 2)Our prayers help those in that condition.
I personally think the differences in this area between Orthodox and Catholic is really just semantics.
orthos love making a HUGE deal over semantics though. without that, they really don't have an identity in the west at least.
@@jimmysheehan5496That's very uncharitable. To those who actually know the Faith the differences are major. This is one reason why the RCC as a whole is incoherent contradicting theologies.
@@LadyMaria wrong
@@jimmysheehan5496No, it's correct. It's part of why I left the RCC.
@@LadyMaria you left for a stupid reason sorry
I’ve always thought the description of Purgatory sounds a whole lot like life on Earth
It is apparently much worse
I'm new Christian. I attend an Anglican church. I guess we're technically Protestant, but we pray for the departed at every service. We also don't believe in the pope or purgatory. In many ways I think we are closer to the Eastern Orthadox Church than the Roman church is.
min 11:50 Rejection of Purgatory, but affirmation of the intermediate state?
Ortho - Tardy - D 🥴
This type or UA-cam orthodoxy exists only to be Not Roman Catholic or any of the 23 or so Rites that exist making up the entire Catholic Church.
Yes, the intermediate state is spiritual, not a created Purgatory like what Catholics believe
Matthew : 5 : 26 - Amen I say to you, that you shall not go forth from there, until you have repaid the last quarter.
That’s purgatory
Omg ur right now I'll become medieval traditional catholic kyrieeleisonchungus SSPX3000 buy indulgences to get bailed out of jail purgatory
Nothing in Jesus' sermon on the mount can be interpreted as taking place in the afterlife. His teaching was with regards to how people ought to live in this life. That being the case, Mt 5:26 refers to the trouble one should expect to face IN THIS LIFE, if he does not forgive his brother from the heart.
Purgatory is Purifying Love.
The souls are immersed in the light and fire of God:s mercy and infinite love and holiness.
Purification not from Sin, but from attachment and effect From Sin.
A child is outside hitting baseballs with a bat. He breaks a neighbor's window with 1 of them. Although the neighbor forgives him, the child must make restitution for what he did.
He must pay for the damage he caused.
Sorrow is not always enough, a firm purpose of amendment is also necessary.
Purgatory is not a prison, that's a medieval summation.
Hebrews 12:29 states
For Our God is a consuming fire..
The fire of justice snd mercy
The saints also say the most purified the soul is becoming the more they love and joy increase until they enter Paradise.
The baseball story doesn’t really prove anything…..it’s just a cute analogy to help exemplify a teaching that may or not be true. A Protestant could easily refute that analogy by saying “nope Jesus took care of that already; He paid the price for the broken window so we don’t have to”.
@@chrisobrien6254Thank you for saying that. The minute I heard that analogy. I knew it was wrong. Roman Catholics are fond of talking about "paying the price" and other such stuff until it cuts across their private agenda. And this Treasury of Merit stuff is utter nonsense. If comes from a legal basis and legal payment, then what more do you add to what Jesus Christ has done on the Cross?
This is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. For Orthodoxy, it's not about legal payments and punishment. It's about healing us and healing our broken nature.
Where are you getting your definition of purgatory?
a roman catholic here. it seems to me, that purgatory is seen as "a place or process", so there is an ambiguity in the concept. if seen as a process - this roman teaching sounds very similar to what you said about st marcs teaching, doesn't it?
As an observant Jew, Our Lord would have believed in Purgatory. Now, can we see evidence of this in His teachings? The answer is, yes. He teaches it both implicitly and explicitly.
Implicitly
In Matt. 12:31-32 we read the following,
31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
Now, Our Lord suggests that some sins can be forgiven since He states, "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that some sins can be forgiven in the next life. Let's eliminate a couple of possibilities. He cannot be referring to Heaven since those in Heaven are already forgiven and He cannot be referring to Hell since those in Hell are beyond forgiveness. The question now becomes, how is a person forgiven in the next life and where does this forgiveness take place? The only answer is Purgatory.
Explicitly
In Luke 12: 40-48 we read the following,
40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."
What can we gather form this passage?
1. This passage is referring to the time of death as is evidenced from v. 40
2. In verses 43-44 if the servant has been faithful to the master then he gets a good reward(Heaven).
3. If the servant was not faithful to the master then he will get Hell(verses 45-46.
4. Our Lord also offers two other possibilities. In verses 47 and 48 one servant got a severe beating while the other did not get a severe beating. These beatings are finite in nature. If this is not in reference to either Heaven or Hell then where are these beatings carried out in the afterlife? The only answer is Purgatory.
@@GigiGhiba what is your proof for that?
Jesus tells us about what happened on the death of `the rich man and a beggar named Lazarus`. An angel carried Lazarus to Abraham's side, while the rich man ended up in hell. To the rich man in hell, Jesus explained that "a great chasm has been fixed between heaven and hell, so that those who want to cross over from here to you cannot do so, nor can anyone cross over to us from where you are." (Luke 16:26). If anyone wants to properly understand the doctrine of Purgatory, then I recommend Saint Catherine of Genoa's treatise, "Fire of Love!", that is, if you want to understand the unfathomable depths of God’s love.
Lets be honest. There are people we all know whose lives were messy, but not deserving of hell. They are saved but still need to be cleaned up a bit before they can fully participate with the saints. Purgatory is the hospital for the soul damaged by sin. Whether this takes a second or a hundred thousand years is meaningless in an eternal realm.
It is clear purgatory has never been explained as a merciful, healing and loving process. Catholic do not believe it is a place, but a process. Read St John of the Cross or St Theresa of Avila of the stages of the conversion experience known as the purgative way that begins in this life but continues on in the afterlife like as part of the unitive experience or marriage of the soul to Christ.
Your explanation is so Calvinistic, punitive and not loving! Not loving like the Roman Catholic explanation given to us by the saints. I don't believe you articulate the Roman Catholic position at all. Best just to explain what the Orthodox believe and let the Roman Catholics explain their own religion.
Why would we not? Some people calling themselves Christians must not believe in the afterlife
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” Corinthians 5:12
ALL Even Evangelicals!!
Not sure if you meant 1st or 2nd Corinthians. It's wrong though.
1 Cor. 5:12:
"12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?"
2 Cor 5:12:
"12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart."
loved the video but as a "protestant" those of us in the confessional Lutheran church do pray for the dead and our confessions say that it is of great benefit>
“He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.”
Isaiah 48:10
That's not Isaiah 48:10. This is:
"Behold, I sold you, but not for silver; and I delivered you from the furnace of poverty."
17:18 at first glance sounds more like they're talking about nuclear annihilation than purgatory as we know of it
God spoke to Abraham of a purification that would be necessary.
Hebrews 12:29 states For Our God Is a consuming fire.
The fire of Purgatory is not punitive, rather it's purifying.
When a man sinned, in the Old Covenant, He had to separate himself from the congregation and go to purify himself and then return to the Temple with a sin offering.
The fires of Purgatory are not removed from God, the souls there are deeply immersed into His great mercy
Hebrews 9:27 ESV / 162 helpful votes
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Also, st john chrysostom wrote in the 5th century, hundreds of years before the RC Church clarified the doctrine of purgatory. st john chrysostom’s statement on divine Justice do not contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory .
Yes - the Catholic Church has been clarifying dogma for 2000 years - the Immaculate Conception, confession, the communion of saints
All Christian Churches have done this ( Southern Baptists in the US are making a “profession of faith” right now) but not all have infallibility
min 20:30 Souls go to prison? Like in Mat 5:25-26. Another reference of Purgatory.
17:57 min and I get confused. Roman Catholics believe that purgatory will NOT save anyone, but cleanse them from sins. Salvation or damnation is determined during the time when one is still alive, and once death comes to a soul, there is nothing else to be done for their salvation. A soul is purgatory s a soul already saved. I never heard of any teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stating that purgatory is for the salvation of the souls. Maybe I understood it wrong in the video, please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently (almost 4 years ago) converted to the Roman Catholic faith and I am still learning. I am not able to do fully participate in the faith (mass and other rituals) as my husband has yet to start the annulment process in order for me to become fully initiated. It is a long path for me. But I truly appreciate the videos of Father Josiah. Thank you! Orthodox faith is beautiful!
At about 12:30 you lay out your main issue it seems, which is that Catholics say purgatory isn't just a state but a place with a unique fire. That contradicts everything I've heard on this as a Catholic. For example, Pope St. Gregory the Great said, “The same fire torments the damned and purifies the elect.” and St Robert Bellarmine said, "Almost all theologians teach that the damned in Hell and the souls in Purgatory, suffer the action of the same fire." The way I hear it described is that since God is everywhere and in all things, the fire of His love will be experienced as a beatific vision, a purging fire, or torment, depending on the person and the time.
And generally, it is said to be more of a mystery, which could be a state more than a physical place. So not sure we are in that much disagreement here.
I learned from Dr. Taylor Marshall that Purgatory is in hell. I never knew that. Blew my mind. According to him, I guess according to Catholic teaching, there are 4 domains of hell: Gehenna (spelling?), Purgatory, the Abode of the Fathers (empty, this is where Jesus descended to when He died on the cross), and the Abode of children (I think it's called, also known as limbo).
Maybe Orthodox and Catholics do have very opposing views on the issue of Purgatory, or maybe they don't. All above my pay grade. But from my uneducated (theology) ears it sounds almost similar to one person saying tomatoe and the other saying tomato.
I could be completely wrong. That is cool too.
@@brewcity2317 That's another point I was going to make. This Orthodox priest says Catholics believe in a "third place." Catholic theology is pretty clear that there are no "third places." There is inside the Kingdom of Heaven and outside. Being outside of it doesn't mean it's always permanent though, like with purgatory or the Limbo of the Fathers, which you mentioned. I would disagree with Taylor Marshall though a bit that there are four areas of hell. That was a Medieval teaching that was widespread but not used before then and isn't used much now. There could be 40 areas of hell. We don't know. Some of them are clearly temporary, and some even have pleasure, like the limbo of the children, which is supposed to have "complete natural happiness," according to Aquinas, meaning the happiness is mediated through creatures but no supernatural happiness directly from the beatific vision like is experienced inside the walls. Limbo of infants is not official teaching, but it's also not rejected. I heartily agree with this priest that we should pray for all souls, alive or dead, that if they are outside the walls of the kingdom, that it will not be permanent and not be all torment. I'm a bit of a "hopeful universalist" myself, but I do accept that being permanently on the wrong side of the walls is possible, maybe even likely for some.
@@DavidLarson100, I didn't know all of that, thank you for the reply.
The orthodoxy was taken over by Byzantine emperors...
But its ok.. i love orthodoxy as a catholic..
Hope we reunite..!
Those against it are from the evil!
I appreciate your teaching. How is one to understand the teaching of toll booths in orthodoxy? As a catholic it occurs as a purgatorial substitute. Luke's gospel in chapter 16 mentions 4 outcomes, 2 of which mention beatings that I understand as purgatorial. Please comment and God bless.
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Purgatory (βασανιστήριον καθαριστήριον) is a temporary state and a place where the souls of those who are found in grace by special judgment, but are not pure enough in the sight of God, are purified until the final judgment. In ancient Christianity, the idea of purgatory was essentially denied by no one. Aërius in the 4th century only questioned the efficacy of intercession for the dead; likewise later the Waldensians. In the system of other heretics, there was hardly room for purification; as with the Manicheans, Gnostics, and Cathars, who only acknowledged the redeemed and the damned. Since the schism, the Greeks have stubbornly denied the possibility of purification, in opposition to the cardinal teaching of the great fathers of Alexandria, but not the punitive sufferings, and intercession for the dead. Since the 13th century, some of them have denied the existence of purgatory. The position of the Greeks implies the idea that the soul's fate is only ultimately decided at the Last Judgment; their sufferings and the prayers for them prepare a merciful judgment for them.
The Christian tradition indeed bears enough witness when it prays steadfastly for the deceased from the beginning. It was a profound conviction that injustice would be done to the martyr who prayed for him. But that someone should pray for the damned was ruled out; therefore, they could only pray for those who were not yet before God, but were preparing to go there; on whom intercession could still have an effect. From this kernel of practical confession grew the formal doctrine of purgatory; meanwhile, it had to contend with more than one foreign element (Bellarmin. 1, 11.).
The first explicit witness is the author of Acta Pauli (around 160): Thecla prays for the deceased Falconilla that she may reach the place of the righteous (Acta Pauli 28.). Tertullian speaks especially firmly about the necessity of intercession for the dead and the efficacy of the Mass offered for them (Tertul. Cor. mil. 3; Monog. 10; Anima 58; Resur. 42.). The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitas (probably written by Tertullian) contains a charming vision: Perpetua sees her seven-year-old brother, Dinocrates, who died of cancer without baptism, in a dark place, with a distorted face, in great thirst. "This caused me great grief. I woke up and was aware that he was suffering. But I was filled with hope that I might be able to procure him some relief. I prayed for him night and day, and with tears persistently entreated God to be gracious to hear me. One day when we were suffering in the hard prison, I had another vision: The same place from which I saw Dinocrates step forward was now very bright; my brother was in clean and good clothes; on his face, where the cancer had been, you could only see a scab. The water vessel (which in the previous vision was much higher than the boy's stature) was now so low that he could easily reach it, and on the edge stood a full drinking cup. When Dinocrates quenched his thirst from it, he went off to play like a child. I woke up and recognized that he had been freed from his punishment." Cyprian speaks quite clearly (Cypr. Epist. 55, 20; cf. 59, 18; Mortal. 26.): "It is one thing to ask for forgiveness, another to enter glory. It is one thing to improve for sins through long torments and to purify oneself through prolonged fire; another is to cast off all punishments by suffering (martyrdom)."
According to Clement of Alexandria (Clemens Al. Strom. VII 12, 78.), true gnosis includes being merciful to those dead who are still atoning for their sins. According to Origen (Origen. Princip. II 10, 4-6; 11, 3; in Num hom. 26; in Mt hom. 30; Cels. IV 13.), every soul passes through the fire after death; the wicked are engulfed by it, the righteous are saved.
This sketchy overview sufficiently refutes the view of rationalist dogma historians as if the doctrine of purification had crept into the Church through Origen. However, it cannot be denied that Origen mixes this teaching with apocatastatic elements, just like his great disciple, Gregory of Nyssa (Nyssen. Cat. 8; Anima et resurr.). The great Greek church fathers (Basil. in Is 9, 19; Chrysost. in Phil hom. 3, 4; in 1 Cor hom. 41, 4; Cyril. Hier. Catech. 5, 9; Epiphan. Haer. 75 (against Aërius); Cyril. Al. wrote a separate work "Against those who boldly claim that they do not need to celebrate Mass for the faithful deceased" M 76, 1423.) otherwise agree with the Latins in the belief that prayers are needed for the dead who are purified in suffering. The Latin teaching is rich and clear. Ambrose, whose eschatology is justly praised among the initiated, expressly teaches that the imperfect, who are not damned, go to the place of purification after the particular judgment, where they must be purified with sufferings; the remaining living can help them with prayers, Masses, alms, and funeral feasts (Ambr. De bono mortis 45-8.). Ambrose, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster believe that all believers will eventually be saved after such purifications. Saint Augustine speaks much and definitively (August. Confess. IX 11-13; Enchir. 69 109-10; Civ. Dei XXI 13, 16; 26, 2; XXVI 2; XXVII 5; Gen. Manich. II 20; Sermo 172, 2, 2.); his disciple, Caesarius of Arles (Caesar. Arel. Sermo 104, 1.) precisely states who awaits purgatory; Pope Gregory the Great (Gregor. M. Moral. IX 34; Dial. IV 39.) emphasizes the "fire" of purification. Since then, the doctrine of purgatory has been unanimous among the Latins; the Greeks gradually deviated from the common ancient tradition.
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There will be an intermediate state after death. It is non physical, right here beside us living beings. You can still pray to loved ones and some of us can receive messages direct through telepathic methods. I have had several after life communications. Unclear to me how long the intermediate state lasts before they are called to the next chapter.
Purification after death of the soul (outside of temporal space) those not condemned to hell after personal judgement is normal.
St Paul talks about purification as by fire which is process like a refiners fire. Prayers for the dead presumes this. The prayers and offerings to the temple in the case of the Maccabees witnesses the dead can be assisted by our prayers since they cannot do for themselves as time has finished.
That they may be delivered from their sins indicates a process after death.
The misunderstanding of Protestant deformers is based on straw men arguments. Time does not exist after death.
That passage is not the only one that implies the existence of a purgatory condition, there are more in the gospels (Matthew 5:26, Matthew 12:31-32), the one of the Macabees quoted at the begining by Father Josiah, etc.. As well St Gregory Nissa talks about it.
By the way: Father Josiah complains in his video about an orthodox perspective on roman catholicism, that St Thomas Aquinas called the orthodox church "the greeks", but he does not stop to call to us "the latins". That is not a good example.
And Luke 12:46-48. There is a difference between the one who is cut off and those who get a beating. Thanks for your post.
Please forgive me if I misunderstood…so is they’re a chance of our unsaved family members who have passed to receive Gods grace and mercy and be saved through our prayers and deeds?
what do you mean by “unsaved”?
@@jamesbancroft2467 non-Christian who haven’t repented and received Gods grace and mercy before they depart from this early life.
@@schelloma thank you for clarifying. I’d say the only two things that are stopping me from accepting orthodoxy, is the veneration of Mary and icons.
When Fr. Josiah talks about the Protestant belief after death about the immediacy of going to heaven or hell why did he say “where they can fall out of paradise or get out of Hades” ? Wouldn’t that be the same thing as going to heaven or hell? Is he just reiterating or is there some distinction that he’s drawing here?
I didn’t understand this either.
No. In Orthodox belief, after we die, and after the particular judgment, we all go to the same place (Hades/She'ol) to await the Resurrection and final judgment. All go to be in the Presence of God. It can be blissful for those in communion with God (Bosom of Abraham), or torture for those not in communion with Him. After the Resurrection and final judgment is when one goes to either the new earth/heaven or hell (Gehenna). So the Protestant idea that we go right on to heaven or hell for eternity isn't shared in Orthodoxy.
Chrysosthom and Mark of Ephesus are true saints guided by the light of divine wisdom!
The dogma of Purgatory is not so easily explained away though. Much-loved Catholic saints have recounted visions of Purgatory and were told by angels the name of the place was indeed Purgatory, egs. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John Bosco.
To explain away those visions would mean the angels were devils in disguise; that may be true in the latter case of John Bosco as the angel guide was said to have preached to him: "disobedience is the root of all evil" which clearly contradicts Scripture (1 Tim. 6:10).
The kneeling prayers for those in Hades, the soul's journey after death, the visions of the tollhouses, etc. all add up to a de facto belief in purgatory. Lump this one on the No Original Sin, No Assumption, No Transubstantiation pile for me.
Well you clearly are an unbeliever. That is your free will choice. Good luck with that 👍
As an ex-Mormon who hasn't really yet found a church home, I find your videos very interesting and will be subscribing, but I do have to say that it really caught my attention (and not in the best way) when you labeled Origen an "early church heretic," considering he wasn't considered one until more than 300 years postmortem, under quite suspicious (as I understand it) circumstances.
As an Orthodox Christian I've been trying to understand St. Gregory "on the soul and the ressurection" which seems to express purgatory as well as a hopeful universalism. I'd love to see you or someone explain this work, maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Being one of the three holy Heirarchs and the older sister being a teacher of both him and St. Basil. That seems troubling for our position.