I play video games to forget about money and...basically everything. With everything being pay to win, it's a constant reminder that maybe just maybe, I should be working instead of playing the game.
99% of singleplayer games have no microtransactions, and there is no pay to win in singleplayer games. You can work and play video games, that's what most people do
Cosmetics are the problem too. Why make a quality game when you can just slap skins into a shop, which is also a gateway to inject worse monetizing. The Helldiver 2's are extremely rare and I'm waiting for execs to force the devs to ruin that game as well.
I think you don't get to complain about the state of democracy and policies if you don't bother voting. Similarly, I think you don't get to complain about capitalism and commercial greed or whatnot when you're not willing to vote with your wallet or your time. Guy in the video is quite right in his observations, overall. And, at the same time, he's wrong. Because he's unwilling to stop playing and cutting off what he disapproves of. In practice, he's indifferent so long as it's not in his face. Just like abstaining from voting. Blank votes are disapproval. Abstaining is indifference. De facto and de jure, it is, regardless of your reasons for it.
I have completely given up on MMO and PVP gaming. I play single player and co-op, That's it. No cheaters, No sweaty people, No SBMM, And it's much easier to find games that aren't pay to win It's relaxing and fun, which I think we all forgot is exactly what gaming was for
i play mmos but totally solo because i like the lenght of mmos and whenever i get asked for a dungeon i replay ''no thanks i prefer having fun'' which always puzzles them
Finally! Someone who agrees! I remember when I've used to play smash ultimate and become more and more competetive, I've noticed I have been turning toxic more and more as well as a result. And all around, I was not enjoying playing it. I was having fun less and less until I forgot why I was playing games in the first place. So, I gave myself a question to answer: "Why am I playing videogames in the first place?!" The answer was simple. "To have fun." and "To relax and enjoy myself." Not sweat my ass off for something no one cares about nor lifes are at stake. That is exactly why I dont play PVP anymore of ANY KIND, and just enjoy PVE casually and single player games by myself. The bad toxic competetive crowds are also bad to hang around with. You turn into one of them, which I've learned from experience.
Modern games are mostly either full competitive/tryhard/challenging or very cinematographic. Meaning it willl be full online, multiplayers with sweaty tryhards and toxicity or just boring AF and of course both full of micro transaction... and that's why indies or older games are better, because you dont have to deal with this bs.
@@kokocaptainqc same here, I love MMOs but play them solo because I don't have the time/energy to keep up with gear requirements for dungeons/raids. I loved back in the day in WoW just raiding a couple times a week and doing whatever else the rest of the time.
I've realised I just don't enjoy multiplayer games anymore the developers and companies are too greedy. The games exciting sometimes but I just don't have fun. I've watched all my friends fizzle out
I think also a lot of the reason we’ve fizzled out on those games is the complexity. Once you have a job & money to spend you don’t want to spend all yr free time & money on that
I agree - Playing MTG Arena felt like an abusive relationship - especially when they introduced 'Blackagorn' and 'Chinese Gandalf'. They expected me to pay lots of money for an IP they had no respect for themselves.
So Asmon really think that if a company finds a way to make the product cheaper to produce. They are going to lower the price for the consumer instead of making a bigger profit. Sure that will happen..
isn't that the premise of free to play games? that they make more money off of the game costing less because people spend money on purchases within the game? the prices tied to skins and digital items in a free to play game are only dictated by what people are willing to pay for them
Better tech does mean that the bar is lower. Like with unreal it's pretty easy to make a game look good any good indie dev could couple that with fantastic gameplay and you have a good game. Same logic applies here. It's arguably if that will happen tho
I don't think him making that comment was about AAA companies. It was more a reflection of hobbyist developers being able to break into the scene. Sort of like how the original online games like Neverwinter Nights and Islands of Kesmai(prices based on baud rate per hour) gave rise to free MUDs
That’s why I prefer going the co-op, host-your-own-server direction (like v rising, valheim) because it’s not as expensive to maintain for them but you can still play with friends
If you know a game is pay to win and you plan on playing it until you hit the ceiling as a non-paying player, they've already won. This guy is a sucker for admitting grinding a game he knew was p2w from the start.
One of the problem that has not been mentionned too in regards with suscription. Is yes, its a barrier to entry but the games now try to double and triple dip by charging you for the sub, and then having a cash shop inside the game so that you can pay more on top of your sub.
It's almost like they are unaware of the current economy. Most people don't have money to burn on stupid things like this. Probably why most live service games die within the first year.
@@ericv738 Having fun is not waste of time, imo having fun is the point of life, everything else are just necessities that enable having fun. Everybody is different and some people enjoy "work grinding" and that is fine. Ofcourse you should take care of responsibilities 1st, 'cause if you fail at that, then consequences probably won t be fun.
Sadly alot of the younger generation doesnt really care about paying in games. Their first contact to games over the last 10.15 years were quite the same to some degree. They dont know anything else than such stuff. Companys will go on and on with it until people stop giving them money at all.
why is that sad? if it makes ‘em happy, who cares? you don’t need to play those games, and you don’t need any kind of brand loyalty. play games that you think are fun. give zero sh!ts about the rest. makes life a lot nicer when you aren’t worried about getting mad at your fun. there are thousands of games out there to play. f*ck so called “AAA” crap. and mmos…
@@mkv2718 I agree with your second paragraph, but it is still kinda sad knowing things could be better and younger people just can't see it because they simply don't know. Imagine having two options, a) getting punched in the gut and b) playing a sport you like. And you see people just going to option A because that's the new standard and all they know. Sure go pick A and if you're happy being punched why should people picking option B care. Still it's a little sad.
Eve online is technically pay to win, but because player death costs what gear you bring out into the world and half of it can be harvested by the players who kill you it tends not to work out like that. Additionally the game knowledge cap is so vast and the best ship being friendship its hard to fear some in game noob who grinds irl jobs.
MMOs are kind of doomed nowadays due to the players. Players want a story they don't read. They want lore that other people tell them about. If there is customization they want someone else to tell them how to build their character. They don't want to explore the world. They want quests they don't have to do. They want to be among the strongest without competing with others. They want to be paid to enjoy theirselves. They want to play a game with a bunch of other people that they never have to interact with. No longer do players want what classic MMOs offered. Vast worlds. Risks. PVP. Competition. Customization of one's own character, house, and world. ...giving a streamer content that they can watch and take part in is more of today's player's desire... while the minority wants to actually play a good game, and explore it theirselves while competing with others.
This is why my personal favorite games are all singleplayer and have no pay to win crap. Case in point; Baldur's Gate 3. Even the Digital Deluxe stuff are merely cosmetic. Everything else is in-game already.
whenever i played witcher 3 i literally felt like i was playing the peak of all time gaming and knew in that moment that it would only be downhill from there
None of the games that have been memorable to me in recent years have been multiplayer and have all been single player oddly enough. Things like god of war, the new resident evil remakes, the 1st last of us, baldurs gate, the witcher 3, seikiro, disco elysium, tales of Arise (I just like tales games in general, the last of a dying breed of good jrpg), and nier...were all single player experiences and were simply exquisite some of which even brought me to my knees crying (ie disco Elysium) - I feel these are some of the most talked about games as well of their eras...not the paid to win ones or the multiplayer ones. I don't get that type of emotion from multiplayer to be honest or rather its really rare (ex. some exceptions of course being honkai 3rd impact [the music in that game and some of the cinematics are chefs kiss] but the game play is kinda dog and dated, or ff14). But for the most part you don't see the same level of detail, polish and craftsmanship especially towards a great emotionally driven rollercoaster of a story. Single player seem more complete, focused on being inclusive in delivering a great experience for all that want play no matter their social status, and with skill being the only accurate measure to differentiate the good from the bad player as it should be. The online games now days while great in theory are too ripe for abuse and have been bastardized beyond recognition at this point. Too many unscrupulous actors and corporate greed has all but ensured their demise. I've played my far share of p2w games over the years and they all end the same. None of my favorite games are paid to win because I don't pay and I don't have fun not being competitive unless I continue to funnel money. Not my idea of good game design to be honest due to the continued investment of time and money. I prefer skill being the measure as it gives me something to work towards (with skill expression being one of the few measures that help sustain games and create communities around them like with many of the online globally competitive games like league of legends, etc) and be better at rather then p2w games which are only fun for a bit until you advance further and the difference between spenders become so ginormous that it is deemed impossible to compete. And at that point, the only thing you can do is join the alliance of a whale and depend on him for rewards and to pull you through events, in which case there is always a bigger and better whale once servers inevitably merge due to an ever dwindling playerbase. Its almost like you become a 3rd class citizen and are only there to contribute to the whales fun as you get farmed by them, regardless of their actual skill or knowledge of said game. But ya, for p2w you can have fun but me they are hardly really memorable and it is like a worn out gum that quickly loses its flavour as opposed the sustained flavor I get out of other games that put in the effort and prioritize customer satisfaction/value.
@@christopherdsuza7531 Yep, i dont understand how anyone can say that games aren't good anymore, or that they're all pay to win, when games have just been getting better and better imo. disco elysium is also one of my favorite games of all time, and sekiro. have you played outer wilds? along with disco elysium and sekiro, outer wilds is also one of my favorite games, if not my favorite game of all time, you gotta play it if you havent..
Its makes sense, sadly. What game was better than Ultima Online or World of Warcraft? Open world, meaningful player interaction, customization, housing, meaningful guilds, useful professions, etc... Developers have failed to catch up with the classic games. Some others have exceled in specific areas, but as a whole, the classics are the best because developers of new games aren't even trying to make anything as good as the classics.
I think this is as much to do with the games today as it does with growing older, maturing, losing interest in things that once gave us pleasure (not just games) and the fondness for our childhood and the simple life we got to live. I don’t do multiplayer or fps games anymore, and they were always my favorite. But I still enjoy tons of single player games.
force forgot to mention Tarisland, a Tencent's WoW/Lost ark hybrid. The game is in the stage of p2w that you can not do normal attack during skill cooldown unless you pay subscription
The reason the inflation estimate sounds too low is because prices in food & housing are what’s soared & they’re not included in the calculation he’s using. For example, fast food & grocery prices in the last 20 years have doubled or tripled on many products. A pack of butter is $6
Eggs more than doubled in price since 2019. Inflation calculations are completely skewed to make the government look better. They changed the math after the 70s inflation.
in my canadian town whenever theres a sale on butter, no matter how much it can be 25 cent less, people go crazy and call each other to warn the most people then 10 minutes into the sale its all gone...if you seen crazy videos about the boxing day sometimes well its the exact same and I DONT GET IT and think theyre all crazy...nobody that i asked could give me an answer either
Exactly. That site uses the official numbers which are designed to purposely lowball the estimate by not accounting for food or energy costs. Everyone complaining about 8% inflation or whatever is completely clueless; we were in solid double digits by any reasonable metric. If you have enough experience dealing with those kinds of fluctuations, you don't really even have to do the math. A year or so ago FELT like 15% inflation. You can tell the difference intuitively between 15% and 8% because it's twice as hard on you in every aspect.
And it all started with EverQuest! You see, Classic EQ was FIERCELY competitive, because the game had ZERO isntances. The entire game was open world, including Dungeons & Raids. Sony introduced the *_Legends Servers_* where, for triple the monthly sub-fee, your guild would be guaranteed a weekly raid slot, alongside things like higher rare drop & spawn rates in dungeons. Those players could gear up in a FRACTION of the time and then transfer back to their original server. And this included PVP servers, where gear was EVERYTHING.
Imagine a series that you pay for to watch once, its filled with filler episodes and you have to pay 5$ to skip each filler episode. (They're so boring you'll want to do it). That's what timesavers in games feel like.
That was my first reaction the first time I saw premium "time savers" in a game. Like, why the heck would I pay MORE money to play LESS game? I don't spend more money to get less toppings on my burger, less features in my car, or less clothing in my closet. You apply this kind of pricing to any other industry, and its complete nonsense. So why is it apparently acceptable in video games? This is the developers literally telling you that their game is worthless. They are showing you that there is more value in not playing it, than there is in playing it. And at that point, why not just pay nothing, and not play it at all? That's maximum value for minimum cost.
Cosmetics are the problem too. They normalize monetizing and seem "innocent." Why make a quality game when you can just slap skins into a shop (usually price gouged and far better quality than what's in the game), which is also a gateway to inject worse monetizing. The Helldiver 2's are extremely rare and I'm waiting for execs to force the devs to ruin that game as well.
Pay to win wouldn't be a big of an issue if housing wasn't 3k a month, if gas was $2 a gallon again, or if food didn't double in cost in 3 years. Every game wants to be your only game and for you to spend $200 a month on it. People don't have unlimited money to sink into every new game that comes along.
I think people are just dumb thinking about money, most of my friends won't play wow/ffXIV because of the subscription are too much, but are fine to paying for more than that on lol every month in battlepasses and skins. I just don't understand
6 місяців тому+31
well to be fair in WoW you need to Buy the Game, Buy the new Expansion, Pay a monthly Subscription, but than it also has a Battlepass, a way to buy ingame currency and a shop for Cosmetics, Mounts etc so its probably the worst example you could have chosen, but i get what your saying lol
Yeah I always think it's weird how someone can drop hundreds on a F2P game but can't bother dropping some money on a paid game. In the end people just value what they like. Battlepasses are at least optional and usually just for skins while a sub completely gates you from playing the game.
Bcoz you literally cant play without continuously paying for subscription. They would rather play f2p games and then spend money after some time knowing they enjoy the games, than to outright paying first without knowing whether they enjoy playing or not.
This is why I'm so thankful for games like Valheim for co-op play with friends for no additional costs. V-Rising also put out a really decent pve-pvp game with some solid mechanics and reasonable size. There needs to be more games along these models. Open co-op play with possible pvp and no additional fees after purchasing the game.
But do keep in mind, those inflation calculators use the 'official numbers' for inflation that excludes virtually everything you need to purchase to live, food, housing, fuel, etc. So it's actually more like double or more the difference they claim.
One of my favourite game of all time is Mabinogi and it's where I draw the line for pay to win, despite having everything that would make you think it's the worst. > The cash shop is Gacha System based > The gear you get from the Gacha is super cool and powerful, but not better than what you can craft in the game yourself > The inventory is very limited and you can pay to increase the slots, but you can get countless ammount of pets (they have inventory slots) and bags for free by doing events > Some summoned pets deal damage/heal when summoned, and this is so powerful that a skilled player with no lag can solo even the hardest content. But again, you can get these from events, and they are account based, so even if you make a new character, you are going to keep them > You can sell cash shop items to players and use that money to buy the best gear crafted from other players, so in a certain way, you can pay to buy the best gear of the game. But you can also easily earn that money on your own in the game or just become a crafter yourself > Most of the free costumes are ugly compared to the super cool/cute premium items from the cash shop, but you can buy them from other players So essentially, just play the game to get what others would get by paying instead of playing
the optional sub is the only model that makes sense, and that optional sub has to find the fine line between being worth it and not worth it. because if it's an auto 100% xp boost or whatever then it doesn't seem optional anymore.
There is however a hybrid model. Similar to what asmon described You got the base game and to continue after a while, you need to purchase an expantion, season pass or subscription ecc. Every expantion the base gets a mini quest that gives one a taste of new stuff. Like a slightly longer quest/mini dungeon and the "we have that armor set at home" And as long as you are in the same party as the expantion/seasonpass/supscription holder. You can play the expantions with them. Payday 2 had a similar way of doing things. Only the lobby host had to have the dlc for you to play a new level. Almost Every dlc you got the "boring version of the new guns. Basically, such system gets new guys in, gets them to stay for longer, and incentevises cooperation , or allows a group of frends to play together, and eventually, individually purchase the expantions to prevent logistocal nightmares. Ofc payday locked some things behind dlc. Certain very specialised weapons and builds but the base game has all the builds you will need, dlc adds variety
As it should. Its a gacha game. It's a game that targets vulnerable losers with no life using generic waifu characters. A friend told me powercreep has never been alive since they released 2 of the most broken characters.
Guild Wars 2 is free to play for the entire base game. To unlock the full game, no subscription is needed. Just buy the expansions which are always on sale. It's horizontal progression so there's no reason to spend real money for power. Every cosmetics in the store can be bought with in game gold earned by playing the game. I think GW2 is very fair if not the best model for players.
@@kbutta01 no it doesnt, its a cash shop with an optional game attached. which is why they need no sub and can only offer the base game. they make money hand over fist from the whales to support that idea. I see more videos talking about whatever new virtual tat you can get from their lootboxes than their expansions or content.
Warframe the only mmo kind off, where you can pay to win faster but it is not required . You can farm all the warframes,weapons,mods and companions that you can buy with real money the only thing that people who use real money can buy and you can't farm are some cosmetics (tenno gen, prime accessories)
Games in the past didn’t need pay to win to survive but I think it’s greed causing all this and how we as a society have shifted to instant gratification rather than earned gratification
Honestly i dont buy into the bullshit that server cost for MMO is too expensive WoW and other mmos got big and successful without any P2W with a smaller playerbase somehow carrying the production + server cost but now suddenly with more people into gaming and higher general player numbers the cost is "too high" the reality is most of these companies are bloated and overhired and also pay out ridiculous sums to exec positions while providing a experience that is of lower quality then years ago.
Major companies like UA-cam have also stated that server cost is a major money sink and takes the most of the money. Either all the companies are in on it OR servers cost a lot.
well, times have changed. even an old horse like wow with its simple graphics has a cool 300 people working on it these days. also blizzard is a public company so profits must increase whether or not they actually release a good game.
Estimates range from $120,000 - $150,000 per day to keep a WOW server up and running. So a bit under $5,000,000 a month or so is the common inference. This was posted in January, 2014. Server expenses are high af that’s why many online services games right now are such a risky investment because you need a sizeable player base buying micro transactions and dlcs to keep it afloat then once that’s covered they can get into profits.
@@answering248soooooo completey inflated just like op said There are/were private servers that hosted much much more than official wow Bandwidth is CHEAP and renting a server or hell building your own isn't expensive at all
@@Xenphos Of course they are in on it. And no, it is not a conspiracy, there is no collaboration going, they are simply in the same position so they resort to same tactics. Like, what did you expect UA-cam to say when it raises prices/ads more adds? Susan needs a new yacht? We need more DEI hires to feed to get free-pass from gov? Yeah, of course they claim that it is servers, magnetic storms from venus, etc.
Subscription is 100% still sustainable. Plenty of people can afford $15-$20 per month plus box price. The problem is that big developers now want to reach the global market where a lot of people maybe can't afford subs. I don't think that's worth making the game worse with a shop / cosmetics because it's free. The reality is that people will justify the price if the value is there. Make great games. There is a huge demographic of gamers that have PLENTY of disposable income and waste it on stupid things like doordash, starbucks, name brand clothes, and electronics. 50 cents a day for hundreds of hours of entertainment per month is a steal.
How I explain pay to win games is like this: There is 2 Lines and 3 categories - First Category is casual, you play the game on weekends, you don't think too much of it, you play them a couple of hours at night after a long day during that weekend. - The second category is Regular average gamer, you play games as your entertainment, a couple of hours at night and all weekend - it doesn't effect your life. - The third category is hardcore, you play games all the time, your tired at work and all you think about during the day is getting back home to play video games. Now the two lines that separate these categories are completely different the line between casual and regular is thick - your making a conscience decision of playing during the week off from your regular 2-3 hours during the weekend - it is not normal for you. The line between Regular and hardcore is so thin that you wouldn't know that you crossed over until you see the effects in the mirror one day. Free to play games: Remove the first line between casual and regular, and get rid of the regular category, all your left with is a thin line between casual and hardcore. Buy your games people - it's the healthier choice.
You know that you can workout 3 times a week, work/study, meet friends/family in weekend and play after work and in rest free time in weekend? Can be healthy and good at the game. Only issue is if you have hobby to pursue, then you cannot be "hardcore". Game becomes your hobby but you become good at it and can compete. If someone never got interested in anything or need escapism, I think that's fair. Along the way, people can monetize their gameplay/expertise if game is popular.
@@lionart5230 Yeah that's casual - that's fine - that itself is healthy - nothing wrong with that. If you want to play games you buy a game and you can forget about it and play it when you have free time. F2P games TARGET causal markets and try to suck them into the hardcore market - being that if you don't want to spend money - you have to play the game in a hardcore manner - sometimes with extreme cases like "Oh an event is happening, better block out a time during the day(whether it's at work, or late at night after acceptable sleep times) or else I'll be kicked out of my social group in the game", "Always gotta do my dallies"- That or your spending money on RNG. and you know what happens to free to play games after the EoS - all that time and money - Gone.
@@lionart5230 To put a final thing to it - Hardcore gamers while spend probably every waking moment playing games - are a lot more stable then a F2P player, being that while you may think and talk about video games all the time as a hardcore player - your not running home or disappearing from work just to play a game for a half hour to an hour. That itself is when you know the game is controlling you. Hardcore gamers who buy games are really not controlled by a video game - they just play it too much and maybe tired at work or talk about it way too much.
@@fafnirchaos0711 I had one or two games that I saw this issue with. One was Hearthstone and ability to keep only 3 quests so F2P players had to do dailies. Second was Rise of Mythos/Kings and Legends where you got some bonus for first game of the day (along with some upgrades that you were waiting for 24h etc). To be honest never felt like I "have to" do it but if I played the game everyday, I did it all the time except for example vacation/travel where you disappear for 2 days - 2 weeks. I never had this urge to leave in specific time to play the game though. Seems weird. I am against every single daily, battle/season pass and other FOMO shit.
@@lionart5230 I played 3 games that had all of that stuff in it, and it was based upon the Meta - and the Meta made it so that if you win an event you get rewards based upon the rank you made it to - and FOMO is basically everything because the rewards for winning would make you even more powerful than anybody you ran into - and you will run into these whales in competitive, just to throw it in your face that you never spent money or did your heavy grind. I also played 1 MMO - one of the first ones - back in high school, spent my entire summer playing that grindfest, and trying to maximize the money i spent on the subscription - and i remember sitting down on the steps of my house 2 days before school started, and wondered where my summer went. From my experience within those games, and what I've actually seen what happens to people playing those games(one person playing the game in a hospital bed just to help out their guild make it to a high rank) pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said about F2P games. you buy a game - you have a complete experience - you can put it into your backlog and can make conscience discussions on whether or not you want to play that game casual or hardcore based upon your current situation - and the fact you can play it 10 years later without worrying about the developers EoSing the game because not enough whales are spending money on it.
Yes OSRS you can buy bonds and sell them for gold sure but i still think its the best of all of them. You cant really buy bonds to get like full torva or something youd have to spend so much to do that. Buying a bond is really good for the start to help you have the money to get the requirements for quest and skills faster but once you get your account leveled enough to make your own money you will never need to buy a bond again and you will prolly be able to make enough gold to never spend real money on runescape again for membership. I usually hate p2w but OSRS bonds I'm okay with.
I still think Anarchy Online had one of the most interesting solutions. Being a scifi game, there were big screens in the hub cities with "ads" for game items manufactured by the fictional corporations in the world. Eventually they started selling that ad space to real companies and many of them tailored their ads to fit the game world so it wasn't too immersion breaking. To this day every time I see Fanta I get instant Anarchy Online nostalgia because they had a scifi Fanta ad running there for a while. You couldn't really avoid hearing the ads when you walked by, but it just felt like normal ambience for the city setting and it didn't clutter your field of view since you had to actually look up at the billboards to see them.
Guide to make an enjoyable mmo: 1) free to play so that everyone can try the game for a while 2) cash shop with only costumes and fashion 3) subscription If I enjoy the game I will for sure pay for subscription and buy costumes from the shop to support the game. I think FF14 did well, dont know about whats in the shop since I did not look that much into it.
Most people with logical sense don't play those games either. Except me, as trash as Shinobi Striker is with hackers, sweaty gamers out that wazoo, and blatant p2w for better jutsus, I still play it and I hate myself for doing so, but damn man the game's fun when it's not raw dogging you with no spit or nothin. I just wish game companies that have actually fun games didn't try their damnedest to ruin it for money.
@@CookiePieMonster Havent opened up the game in years. I think I played with one of the boys when Healer 6 paths Naruto(S) dropped. Sad that game didnt hold big baller status
3:43 I do think there's some nuance to this. If a subscription provides you with, let's say more Gold dropping. Or it improves your chance at some RNG element of the game. Or it gives you a loot box that can grant you some of the best gear in the game. Etc. Then a "subscription" is also P2W in a F2P game. Do I personally care? No. But I wouldn't argue it's not necessarily P2W.
if you plan on playing eso competitively you have to have eso plus, it doubles your bank and inventory capacity, also unlocks the dungeons you haven't paid for via expansions and unlocks a bag that lets you hold unlimited amount of materials.
If something is just a matter of price, there is no satisfaction from achievement itself. If game is P2W, has bot problems, easily available currency etc. it immediately removes any interest I could have it in first place.
Other games that have the option of Monthly Sub that pretty much opens up most of the game or removes restrictions include: DCU, SWTOR, DDO (to a certain extent), LOTRO (to a certain extent), and the list goes on... It's mostly older MMORPG's, as most newer games typically opt for a F2P or Monthly Sub to reduce restrictions but almost always still include cash shop items to supplement the income even further... Then you get some MMORPG's that went the extreme direction of removing subs but also adding high restrictions requiring expensive cash shop purchases revolving around Character Specific Unlocks vs Account Unlocks... Champions Online is one of the worst ones... As to the subject of future games, EA and Asian Market Games have proven that the F2P and Cash Shop method makes more money over Box+Sub... The MMORPG market of developers are just a bit too afraid from a corporate standpoint (especially publicly traded ones) to take huge risks on a game that may or may not make money within the first few years... Going F2P+Cash Shop is less risky, and typically tends to work against attrition better then a Box+Sub+Expansions method... Honestly, when I look back, the turning point where F2P and Cash Shops began hitting the MMORPG market hard, happened when SWTOR didn't make the kinds of money expected in it's first year... Up to that point, very few bigger Western Market MMORPG's had a F2P model or the addition of a modern cash shop... Regardless if SWTOR got better later, it was too little too late, the market became scarred after that point... And the market crashing in 2008/2009 didn't help... As to the point of MMORPG's funneling players to the cash shop via the game play... It was always an Asian Market thing, that began worming it's way into the Western Market... Especially after EA began doing it with their games (especially the sports games overseas)... Because it proved to western market gaming developers that the cash shop system, found in most Asian Market games, was a huge money maker... In the same vein as micro transactions with mobile devices... But worse in the PC gaming world, because of the higher prices... As to the "WoW Killers", until WoW subs drop to super low numbers, or Blizzard comes out with another big MMORPG (which will probably never happen any time soon) that draws subs away from WoW itself, no game ever labelled as a "WoW Killer" has ever killed WoW... Especially when they don't innovate enough to move away from the generic High Fantasy scenario with newer systems that draw peeps in...
I always wondered where Warframe's monetization categorizes here, cause it has pay to win mechanics in its monetization but a huge part of the player thinks its very fair me included. Edit: I'm always curious about the game's premium currency being tradable.
DOwnside to sub only model is it encourages content and gameplay to play out at .5 speed. And i felt that strongly in ff14 coming from eso. Eso is not perfect but always having access to the game, without being gated by sub, is a must going foreword imo.
idk if I agree with that cause p2w games are even more incentivized to pad out the content. Just look at Genshin Impact's Dickens-level word count. You'd think they got paid by the word. But it's to increase the longevity of the game and keep you always thinking they'll make it better next patch.
@@raevenent751 during shadowbringers I asked my fc about speeding up walking and mount pace, I quit then and there coz literally every step is slowed to pad out the game.
no, not really.mmo players are like locusts you are never gonna have enough content to fill the months between payments for them unless you want to adopt a biweekly release schedule or something stupid like that. the thing you need to keep in mind is that with a sub you actually have to deliver quality content. the game has to be actually interesting or people are just gonna unsub. with whale economics you just need to cater to your most loyal idiots - much easier.
Eso releases new dungeons or areas every 3 months which come with optional sub or can be bought straight up. That option allows players to play no sub. More options for payment is always the better option for consumers. Neither wow or ff14 are that much greater than their competition to show any type of extra quality coming from sub fees. Like i said, in fact from a gameplay and movement perspective they are much worse.
What I'd love to see in an mmo is a giant tower with a magic hour glass. You can pay to put more sand in. when the sand from the top is gone from the top the game no longer gets further development. then the sand from the bottom starts leaving, and once it's gone the servers go offline. very direct, everyone in the game knows what it means, everyone can see it from miles away. you can contribute, you get nothing in return but the little bit of sand that you added to the pool.
6:40 Yeah, a subscription is comparatively reasonable because the advantages are limited compared to a premium currency & ingame shop that enables whaling for example. It's still P2W in a strict sense, but so is DLC in general if you can get some crazy equipment from the DLC content that trivializes the rest of the game (i.e. Bethesda games, though that's singleplayer so who cares). All players that pay the entry fee get an equal advantage though so I don't think it's so bad.
You guys said exactly why I don't play P2W games. Why would I pay to be the best in the game and clear everything easily? What's the point of playing the game....? If it's really easy and I can just pay my way to a win why would I want to play it? lol Makes zero sense to me why people do this. Part of the fun is the grind to becoming the strong character you are. That's what MMOs are. Progressing your character from a peon to a champion. If you go from peon to champion instantly you take away the best part of the MMO.
You really can't understand why someone who plays video games with the "being the best" goal in mind pays to be there? Keep in mind, having the most powerful character in a video game literally translates to nothing outside of the video game. Inside the video game however, you are the big dawg that nobody can stand up to. That's a good feeling period. The person this goal attracts has a very difficult time differentiating personal progress with social progress. To this person, you'd be doing yourself a disservice not taking every advantage. Everybody plays games for different reasons. You may sit down to play an MMO to build your character's power through work and skill. Somebody else may sit down to grief other players. This person sits down to stroke their ego.
If someone becomes a big dawg that nobody can stand up to. and then a big dawg that nobody can stand up to... I've seen this over and over again in KR games like NC soft's Lineage, Nexon's Maple Stroy, and etc mmorpgs. It is simply a business strategy that capitalizes on human psychology. They force us to compare and compete with each other, and that's how games make money. This method is not only used by Korean game companies, but also by KPOP IDOL entertainment companies. In order to go to a fan signing, the top N people in terms of album purchases are selected. Of course, you only need one album to listen to the music, but you are forced to buy multiple albums. It is said that 800 tons of albums are thrown away every year because they are useless.
@@mr.vindicator4697 yeah and it’s stupid. lol that’s my point. You didn’t have to write a novel. Paying to be the best is dumb. It defeats the point of gaming. Especially in mmos. MMOs are about the adventure.
@@ikiwheese I Guess you didn't understand what I was saying then. It's not dumb to them. It's dumb to not take the advantage. These people have little grasp on reality. I agree with you from a personal perspective. It's just not about me or you. It's about making money.
I think games doing cosmetic-only mtx is fine. (if it has no gambling elements) Its just a different business model and it doesn't harm the player as it does not provide any advantage.
@@hypnogri5457 those that see a problem ther have just so much self restrain that if there is ANYTHING to buy they feel obligated to buy it even if they do so cursing and moaning....its just way stronger them them
Development costs are one thing; MMOs also have server and maintenance fees to pay. And they are costly. I remember my first MMO was StoneAge, and that was a monthly subscription; it was a wonderful period.
Conan doesn't have pay for convenience items. Most items you can buy or get are midtier at best and it usually costs the same as that level of item, and same material cost to build
Osrs bonds are barely pay2win, they used to not be worth like 5bucks 5mil coins, now its 13million, yea inflation will make it eventually not worth your time. Spend 100 bucks save a year of grinding if you a casual i guess.. its why most players are iron in osrs
brother not only irons are minority of osrs but being able to literally buy BiS gear with your credit card is the definition of P2W. OSRS is even worse than Korean mmos
@@yrtert7138 any non iron somewhat serious player makes enough gold to buy that gear withour buying bonds(wow token thing for ppl who dont know) Yes casuals use it to even out the playing field but it doesnt make them good and bis gear is so expensive, im gonna guess the amount of people spending irl cash for full bis ingame gear or even half, is at most a few hundred people. Were talking thousands of euros, yo then use that at places that are still hard for them. Its not like wow or korean actual ingame shops, those are so much worse. We have bad value wow tokens any decent player doesnt spend money on cause they actually so the content the noobs buy the gear for I know what im talking about maxes 3 accs, soonish 4 (every mode, hc to go) Idk why you defend korean ingame psychologic shop bullshit vs this either way you just wrong glhf
@@yrtert7138 The BiS gear cost billions of GP(gold). A bond costs 8$(USD) which sells for about 13m now. Just to get a weapon like the scythe it would be 1.6B/13M= ~985$, for one item(that can be lost by being PKed while being skulled, for example). I think you get it that it is not the way to get it. For PVP you just need to get good, that way you get there faster, for PVMers it is more irrelevant to buy GP through bonds, as that's what they enjoy doing, while making consistent GP to keep going in case they lose an item.
best pay-to-win system in a MMO is for Warframe. You can spend real money to get some powerful characters and weapons that are lock or hard to farm,, or you can make in-game coins from farming and buy them from other players in-game store. Basic any playr can have same powerful upgrades, armor, weapons but will be a race in between poor players that will invest hundred of hours to farm those stuff versus wallet-warriors that will have them in a blink of eye.
If you are expecting wow 2 from aoc u will be disappointed, aoc it's L2+archeage systems Even so I expect the worst player base on that game, that devs won't be able to control
14 absolutely has pay to win in the form of instant levels and story skips. Its design is so bad, there's no endgame or competitive skilled activities anyways for them to add that form of pay-to-win. Not a good solution to have pointless item level-based grindfests for cosmetics only.
A lot of players don't care about the "pay-to-win" as long as it doesn't ruin the in-game economy. You want that thriving auction house with appropriate pricing. Then, instead of grinding for gear, you grind for currency...and buy your gear from the auction house. Some people even view THAT as "pay-to-win". And that's not fair. That's literally how the game works.
I think the monetization of Halo Infinite was the biggest killer of that particular game. I and my friends actually really enjoyed it. Then it show me the shop, where all the shit that used to be important you can just buy. Combine that with their failed promises and I just got more depressed about it the more I logged in. We played it for a month, and it wasn’t for the gameplay we left. The halo 3 recon armor was a great example, I didn’t complete the challenges I just woke up or came back from school one day and looked in my locker and had it so I must’ve played with a Bungie dev and I still to this day wonder if I bodied him or not. Probably not. You could wear what you were proud of and it would incentivize others, when I got the recon I felt like I won the lottery.
I saw a chatter ask what's wrong with grind skips. The grind was added in by the dev, they make the grind crazy long so you're incentivized to buy a skip for a grind they put in, to make you buy the skip
Paying for Crystalline Aura in Lost Ark is the biggest waste of money. It costs anywhere from 12k-14k gold for a 30 day subscription, and one character doing weekly raids makes more than that in one week.
A major reason is bc servers cost money to run. This is why so many ppl say Single player offline games are A NECESSITY. Multiplayer games cost a lot more to keep going. Offline games dont need servers and ppl to run servers.
2nd life model could work, players create their own cosmetic items and sell to eachother with purchased currency, they can then convert back into real money with the game taking a cut, infinite cosmetics, company gets funds, no p2w
As a massive Warframe player I am a bit biased towards the game but I would hardly call it pay to win and most of the stuff is actually inconvenient to buy lol the only things that are convenient to buy are boosters which can basically make you play half as much to earn the same amount. I could go further in depth if someone wants. Almost everything in the market other than cosmetics is a massive fucking ripoff but that’s okay because you can earn them fairly quickly and no one buys them anyways. You can only purchase prime frames when they are initially released and it’s very expensive from the market. BUT the difference is you can trade to get plat to just trade for the prime parts. For example protea prime just came out and for the frame, weapons, exclusive cosmetics only obtainable from this purchase, 2 90 day boosters and it’s $140. But I can buy or trade for about 200-250 plat and get all of it minus the boosters and cosmetics from another player. $20 will get you 370 plat. Regular frames cost 325 plat and is a complete ripoff because almost all of them are easily obtainable. Weapons vary in price but are also a ripoff and easy to get by playing. The major difference between buying from a player or the market is the market will come finished where as you have to build it using resources if you get it from a player. Because Warframe gives you the ability to be a complete f2p player (like myself) but still be able to do any content, I don’t find it to be a p2w game at all. There is nothing in the game you have to purchase to stay relevant or strong or for instance they added a new “endgame” that you can only run once, no matter what. If you just play the game enough and there’s something you don’t have that you want to get, you just trade people your leftovers and buy what you need.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are still a handful of 2D MMOs like Adventure-Quest and Mech-Quest that are still supported and prefer $5 subscriptions, which is quite cheap if you're into 2D JRPGs.
I think the monetization of Halo Infinite was the biggest killer of that particular game. I and my friends actually really enjoyed it. Then it show me the shop, where all the shit that used to be important you can just buy. Combine that with their failed promises and I just got more depressed about it the more I logged in. We played it for a month, and it wasn’t for the gameplay we left. The halo 3 recon armor was a great example, I didn’t complete the challenges I just woke up or came back from school one day and looked in my locker and had it so I must’ve played with a Bungie dev and I still to this day wonder if I bodied him or not. Probably not.
i disagree with pay for convinience is the same as pay to win, poe if you use the first 60$ you dont gain more by using more money.. tho it makes it more convinient and maybe faster to put stuff for sale but imo this is pay to play then its up to you if you wanna use 60$ or 1000$
Ideally an MMO would be first section (~5 hours of content) of the game is free, $20/mo subs after that, then a lot of cool physical merch (not in-game cosmetics), paid social options like guild halls, paid expansions every 12 months, and a buy all previous expansions for $60 if there's been a bunch.
I think the biggest issue is the games that are released unfinished, or like the new assassins creed, hide a singular mission behind a paywall. Gamers will pay the money to enjoy the game, but the game has to be enjoyable.
ESO has quite a bit of monetization but honestly the game is great. So many options and so many builds possible. The housing in ESO is top notch but if you want to get into housing you better be ready to open your wallet. I've spent way more on ESO than I ever did on wow but I like ESO better too.
@2:17 “ in the future when games are cheaper to develop…” Why do you assume games will be cheaper to develop? The cost of everything is constantly going up. NOTHING is cheaper than what it was 20 years ago. So I’m very confused why people always assume “The future will be cheaper”…
HE said... AI. Im a computer eng. you can now use co pilot to write code... they all use the same engines now with just different skins.. you can put a new gme out in like a month no problem so ya you can put a new game out monthly and make it P2W and suckers will spend.
@@tickertape78 no he said games will be cheaper to develop. sorry but i dont believe it's going to be that easy. if people flood the market with AI coded trash it will be the 1980s game market crash all over again.
@@BeachLookingGuy FR? All the MMO's and MMORPG and online are all same engine with different skins.. you can put a new game out in a week.. Look at ROK COC COD ROD evony.. Whiteout Survival... Was frozen City.. Now WOS made 1 bil... Look at last of rrafts and Arctic Wild.. exact!! Same with all the other "Games" there is nothing useful created.. Civ in 2025 is humanity's last go lmao. Now to go play mech domination or bugtopia or Ant's of one form or another...For the Horde!! I mean Swarm.
A big part of this is that most of these devs belong to large corps that are publicly traded so the pressure for line to go up never stops. NO AMOUNT OF PROFIT WILL APPEASE THE BEAST
It would be lovely if all mmo or mmolite games could function on the same level as warframe which you literally never need to pay money to get the store currency. You can farm material to sell to players for the currency. It's perfect for everyone. Waeframe is very niche in that way though
I think one reason PTW games still have popularity might be because of time consumption. I prefer an mmo that everyone has to work to get better gear etc instead of pay however i can see how ppl that like mmo’s but dont have the time to compete with ppl that have a ton of free time might prefer paying money to skip the grind and go straight to the end game stuff. Which is why games like that still exist.
P2P is the worst thing ever happened to gaming. Not only it gatekeeps players from playing if they are poor, but it also locks away everything you built if you stop paying. GW2 has the best monetization if you ignore cash-shop: free core game, paid expansions.
Servers got so much more efficient over the past 20 years. They could easily do 10$ subscription now and still make more money than back then. Lets say in 2004 1k people were able to play on a server and now it's more than 10k. And the costs for running the servers didn't went up 10x the amount from 2004.
I always find it funny, the people who would say a sub fee is too much will be nine times out of ten will also be the one dropping 200 bucks on cash shop items monthly for a free to play pay to win shovelware title.
Players agency is a thing. What's the scriptures you have no agency. Put microtransactions you do. If you stop paying the subscription, you cannot play. If you stop buying microtransactions, you can still play the game. It doesn't take much thought trying to figure out why people prefer microtransations over Subscriptions.
Its why i like Guild Wars 2 its over all pretty easy to get into anything in the game with out the cash shop and u can trade gems for gold but doesnt overly effect anyone in game as its so easy to get armor and weapons.
I know you hate to mention it, but GuildWars2 honestly has some of the best monetization in the industry. You can play the core game for free for as long as you want, the expansions are fairly priced, there's no monthly sub whatsoever. The gem store exists but it is truly optional. While there are a lot of skins for sale there is a ton of good looking cosmetic items you can only get from gameplay. There are convenience items such as bank tabs but they aren't necessary unless you are investing hundreds of hours into the game. You can convert gems into gold, but making gold in game isnt predatory, in fact I know quite a few players who have never bought gems and solely convert gold to gems for their purchases. At the same time you really can't use gold to make your character stronger, the highest tier of gear can only be acquired through gameplay and is account bound on acquire. The options to spend money are there, however it's balanced very fairly, respecting players time and giving the developer an outlet to fund the game.
You're 100% correct that gamers have the power to change these things. It's also not just with games but with all corporations. Without your wallets even the biggest can fall. The problem is people have gotten far too passive. Never be loyal to a company which is screwing you over. Don't make excuses for them; all that does is enable them to get worse. If you truly care about a game series or company, then speak up and put your foot down when they badly mess up. Every little step they take in the wrong direction, which you support them regardless of (oh it's just ) is a step you've allowed them to get worse. That isn't love for a game or company, that's enabling their destruction.
![How to Get a Developer Job - Even in This Economy [Full Course]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6nz8GXjxiHg/mqdefault.jpg)
I play video games to forget about money and...basically everything. With everything being pay to win, it's a constant reminder that maybe just maybe, I should be working instead of playing the game.
99% of singleplayer games have no microtransactions, and there is no pay to win in singleplayer games.
You can work and play video games, that's what most people do
Cosmetics are the problem too. Why make a quality game when you can just slap skins into a shop, which is also a gateway to inject worse monetizing. The Helldiver 2's are extremely rare and I'm waiting for execs to force the devs to ruin that game as well.
You're spot on with this dude.
Just don't buy any micro transac- fuck that armor skin looks good maybe I should it's $2
@@ionsevenhelldiver's 2 is already being ruined, but not by the devs 🤷🏾♂️
How to stop this vicious cycle:
1. Dont play the games that do this
2. Thats it
blah blah blah. sit down, pay, and play the game.
If those kids could read, they'd be VERY upset right now....
Exactly. There are a multitude of good games out there that aren't excessively monetized. Play those instead. Stop rewarding the bad guys.
Yep! Just impossible to get (almost) everyone to agree to not buy the damn game 😆
@@Eaon69not if you have great tastes
Playing with yourself is free
Must supply yourself with liquids tho
It's not.
Don't worry they're working on it lmao
Graphic sux..:(
Sad 😿
someone on the internet said it best:
Once i had to find a store to buy a game. nowadays, I buy a game to find a store.
* *2003:* _I used to go into a store to find a game,_
* *2023:* _Now I go into a game to find a store._
So poetic and so true
"Why are all my favorite games pay-to-win??"
Same people: "I'll swipe my card until I hit a wall."
All video games will eventually become pay-to-win. It's too lucrative and game developers are getting greedy 🤑
sounds like going to vegas and playing slots
If you’re trying to quote him. That’s not what he said.
I think you don't get to complain about the state of democracy and policies if you don't bother voting. Similarly, I think you don't get to complain about capitalism and commercial greed or whatnot when you're not willing to vote with your wallet or your time.
Guy in the video is quite right in his observations, overall. And, at the same time, he's wrong. Because he's unwilling to stop playing and cutting off what he disapproves of. In practice, he's indifferent so long as it's not in his face. Just like abstaining from voting.
Blank votes are disapproval. Abstaining is indifference. De facto and de jure, it is, regardless of your reasons for it.
I never do that. If a game is free to play I might buy a thing or two to support it but that's it.
I have completely given up on MMO and PVP gaming.
I play single player and co-op, That's it.
No cheaters, No sweaty people, No SBMM, And it's much easier to find games that aren't pay to win
It's relaxing and fun, which I think we all forgot is exactly what gaming was for
i play mmos but totally solo because i like the lenght of mmos and whenever i get asked for a dungeon i replay ''no thanks i prefer having fun'' which always puzzles them
Finally! Someone who agrees! I remember when I've used to play smash ultimate and become more and more competetive, I've noticed I have been turning toxic more and more as well as a result.
And all around, I was not enjoying playing it. I was having fun less and less until I forgot why I was playing games in the first place.
So, I gave myself a question to answer: "Why am I playing videogames in the first place?!"
The answer was simple. "To have fun." and "To relax and enjoy myself."
Not sweat my ass off for something no one cares about nor lifes are at stake.
That is exactly why I dont play PVP anymore of ANY KIND, and just enjoy PVE casually and single player games by myself.
The bad toxic competetive crowds are also bad to hang around with. You turn into one of them, which I've learned from experience.
Modern games are mostly either full competitive/tryhard/challenging or very cinematographic. Meaning it willl be full online, multiplayers with sweaty tryhards and toxicity or just boring AF and of course both full of micro transaction... and that's why indies or older games are better, because you dont have to deal with this bs.
@@kokocaptainqc same here, I love MMOs but play them solo because I don't have the time/energy to keep up with gear requirements for dungeons/raids. I loved back in the day in WoW just raiding a couple times a week and doing whatever else the rest of the time.
Same, I play only co-op pve games, single players and that's pretty much it.
I've realised I just don't enjoy multiplayer games anymore the developers and companies are too greedy. The games exciting sometimes but I just don't have fun. I've watched all my friends fizzle out
Sounds like someone who played Shinobi Striker and was upset that it's not a bad game, but ruined by greed. Or maybe it's the username.
I think also a lot of the reason we’ve fizzled out on those games is the complexity. Once you have a job & money to spend you don’t want to spend all yr free time & money on that
I think it's true that's why You need strong single player parts if You want to succeed. Main story in FFIVX and iron man in OSRS are good examples.
Yeah I mostly play older RPGs from PS3 and 360 era an so in
I agree - Playing MTG Arena felt like an abusive relationship - especially when they introduced 'Blackagorn' and 'Chinese Gandalf'. They expected me to pay lots of money for an IP they had no respect for themselves.
So Asmon really think that if a company finds a way to make the product cheaper to produce. They are going to lower the price for the consumer instead of making a bigger profit. Sure that will happen..
Good point
isn't that the premise of free to play games? that they make more money off of the game costing less because people spend money on purchases within the game? the prices tied to skins and digital items in a free to play game are only dictated by what people are willing to pay for them
Better tech does mean that the bar is lower. Like with unreal it's pretty easy to make a game look good any good indie dev could couple that with fantastic gameplay and you have a good game. Same logic applies here. It's arguably if that will happen tho
@@jacob-2271no.
I don't think him making that comment was about AAA companies. It was more a reflection of hobbyist developers being able to break into the scene. Sort of like how the original online games like Neverwinter Nights and Islands of Kesmai(prices based on baud rate per hour) gave rise to free MUDs
That’s why I prefer going the co-op, host-your-own-server direction (like v rising, valheim) because it’s not as expensive to maintain for them but you can still play with friends
If you know a game is pay to win and you plan on playing it until you hit the ceiling as a non-paying player, they've already won. This guy is a sucker for admitting grinding a game he knew was p2w from the start.
One of the problem that has not been mentionned too in regards with suscription. Is yes, its a barrier to entry but the games now try to double and triple dip by charging you for the sub, and then having a cash shop inside the game so that you can pay more on top of your sub.
dont forget the games that have what you mentioned plus also a season pass you gotta pay extra for on top of what you are pointing out
It's almost like they are unaware of the current economy. Most people don't have money to burn on stupid things like this. Probably why most live service games die within the first year.
if a game is p2w its not a game its a waste of time
It was always a waste of time unfortunately. Not like the game was teaching you differential calculus.
@@ericv738 something being a waste of time or not is subjective.
@@ericv738 Watching this video is just as much of a waste of time by that logic.
It is
@@ericv738 Having fun is not waste of time, imo having fun is the point of life, everything else are just necessities that enable having fun. Everybody is different and some people enjoy "work grinding" and that is fine. Ofcourse you should take care of responsibilities 1st, 'cause if you fail at that, then consequences probably won t be fun.
Sadly alot of the younger generation doesnt really care about paying in games. Their first contact to games over the last 10.15 years were quite the same to some degree. They dont know anything else than such stuff. Companys will go on and on with it until people stop giving them money at all.
Vote with your wallet 😂
why is that sad? if it makes ‘em happy, who cares? you don’t need to play those games, and you don’t need any kind of brand loyalty.
play games that you think are fun. give zero sh!ts about the rest. makes life a lot nicer when you aren’t worried about getting mad at your fun. there are thousands of games out there to play. f*ck so called “AAA” crap. and mmos…
@@mkv2718 I agree with your second paragraph, but it is still kinda sad knowing things could be better and younger people just can't see it because they simply don't know.
Imagine having two options, a) getting punched in the gut and b) playing a sport you like. And you see people just going to option A because that's the new standard and all they know. Sure go pick A and if you're happy being punched why should people picking option B care. Still it's a little sad.
@@mkv2718 I care. Because *I* get no games anymore as every new game is designed for braindead consooomers.
@@araamahasla555 and we can replay the classics only so much before we burn out
Eve online is technically pay to win, but because player death costs what gear you bring out into the world and half of it can be harvested by the players who kill you it tends not to work out like that. Additionally the game knowledge cap is so vast and the best ship being friendship its hard to fear some in game noob who grinds irl jobs.
Sneaky editor changing the game behind Force to Honkai Impact 😂
MMOs are kind of doomed nowadays due to the players.
Players want a story they don't read.
They want lore that other people tell them about.
If there is customization they want someone else to tell them how to build their character.
They don't want to explore the world.
They want quests they don't have to do.
They want to be among the strongest without competing with others.
They want to be paid to enjoy theirselves.
They want to play a game with a bunch of other people that they never have to interact with.
No longer do players want what classic MMOs offered. Vast worlds. Risks. PVP. Competition. Customization of one's own character, house, and world.
...giving a streamer content that they can watch and take part in is more of today's player's desire... while the minority wants to actually play a good game, and explore it theirselves while competing with others.
The people paying for the dumb shit are enabling the devs too, it’s a downward spiral.
Zoom zoom zoomers😂
People think about Us Vs Them when Time is the True Enemy of Us All.
Bro tell us you have the attention of a gold fish lol
Completely wrong
This is why my personal favorite games are all singleplayer and have no pay to win crap. Case in point; Baldur's Gate 3. Even the Digital Deluxe stuff are merely cosmetic. Everything else is in-game already.
Well… my favors are Wow, Baldur’s Gate 3 and GOT( Ghost of Tsushima)
I had the same love with The Witcher 3. +700 hours in that game 😊 for only 20 euro ❤
whenever i played witcher 3 i literally felt like i was playing the peak of all time gaming and knew in that moment that it would only be downhill from there
None of the games that have been memorable to me in recent years have been multiplayer and have all been single player oddly enough. Things like god of war, the new resident evil remakes, the 1st last of us, baldurs gate, the witcher 3, seikiro, disco elysium, tales of Arise (I just like tales games in general, the last of a dying breed of good jrpg), and nier...were all single player experiences and were simply exquisite some of which even brought me to my knees crying (ie disco Elysium) - I feel these are some of the most talked about games as well of their eras...not the paid to win ones or the multiplayer ones. I don't get that type of emotion from multiplayer to be honest or rather its really rare (ex. some exceptions of course being honkai 3rd impact [the music in that game and some of the cinematics are chefs kiss] but the game play is kinda dog and dated, or ff14). But for the most part you don't see the same level of detail, polish and craftsmanship especially towards a great emotionally driven rollercoaster of a story. Single player seem more complete, focused on being inclusive in delivering a great experience for all that want play no matter their social status, and with skill being the only accurate measure to differentiate the good from the bad player as it should be. The online games now days while great in theory are too ripe for abuse and have been bastardized beyond recognition at this point. Too many unscrupulous actors and corporate greed has all but ensured their demise. I've played my far share of p2w games over the years and they all end the same. None of my favorite games are paid to win because I don't pay and I don't have fun not being competitive unless I continue to funnel money. Not my idea of good game design to be honest due to the continued investment of time and money. I prefer skill being the measure as it gives me something to work towards (with skill expression being one of the few measures that help sustain games and create communities around them like with many of the online globally competitive games like league of legends, etc) and be better at rather then p2w games which are only fun for a bit until you advance further and the difference between spenders become so ginormous that it is deemed impossible to compete. And at that point, the only thing you can do is join the alliance of a whale and depend on him for rewards and to pull you through events, in which case there is always a bigger and better whale once servers inevitably merge due to an ever dwindling playerbase. Its almost like you become a 3rd class citizen and are only there to contribute to the whales fun as you get farmed by them, regardless of their actual skill or knowledge of said game. But ya, for p2w you can have fun but me they are hardly really memorable and it is like a worn out gum that quickly loses its flavour as opposed the sustained flavor I get out of other games that put in the effort and prioritize customer satisfaction/value.
@@christopherdsuza7531 Yep, i dont understand how anyone can say that games aren't good anymore, or that they're all pay to win, when games have just been getting better and better imo. disco elysium is also one of my favorite games of all time, and sekiro. have you played outer wilds? along with disco elysium and sekiro, outer wilds is also one of my favorite games, if not my favorite game of all time, you gotta play it if you havent..
You know what’s really funny and sad? All my favorite games are from the past.
well yeah for you to like a game today you must have been able to play it sometime before today.
@@MrWilliGaming
Well, yeah, when I say from the past, I don’t mean yesterday or a year or a few years back.
@@7rob27All my favorite games are from the future. And when I say future, I don't mean tomorrow or a year or a few years from now.
Its makes sense, sadly.
What game was better than Ultima Online or World of Warcraft?
Open world, meaningful player interaction, customization, housing, meaningful guilds, useful professions, etc...
Developers have failed to catch up with the classic games.
Some others have exceled in specific areas, but as a whole, the classics are the best because developers of new games aren't even trying to make anything as good as the classics.
I think this is as much to do with the games today as it does with growing older, maturing, losing interest in things that once gave us pleasure (not just games) and the fondness for our childhood and the simple life we got to live.
I don’t do multiplayer or fps games anymore, and they were always my favorite. But I still enjoy tons of single player games.
I remember the golden early days, where games were sold completed and no stupid cosmetics/DLC.
force forgot to mention Tarisland, a Tencent's WoW/Lost ark hybrid. The game is in the stage of p2w that you can not do normal attack during skill cooldown unless you pay subscription
they use the korean model where you pay hourly up front with an extra surcharge every time you log in.
im seeing a future where you need to pay to generate the energy to launch the game
The reason the inflation estimate sounds too low is because prices in food & housing are what’s soared & they’re not included in the calculation he’s using. For example, fast food & grocery prices in the last 20 years have doubled or tripled on many products. A pack of butter is $6
Eggs more than doubled in price since 2019. Inflation calculations are completely skewed to make the government look better. They changed the math after the 70s inflation.
in my canadian town whenever theres a sale on butter, no matter how much it can be 25 cent less, people go crazy and call each other to warn the most people then 10 minutes into the sale its all gone...if you seen crazy videos about the boxing day sometimes well its the exact same and I DONT GET IT and think theyre all crazy...nobody that i asked could give me an answer either
Exactly. That site uses the official numbers which are designed to purposely lowball the estimate by not accounting for food or energy costs.
Everyone complaining about 8% inflation or whatever is completely clueless; we were in solid double digits by any reasonable metric.
If you have enough experience dealing with those kinds of fluctuations, you don't really even have to do the math. A year or so ago FELT like 15% inflation. You can tell the difference intuitively between 15% and 8% because it's twice as hard on you in every aspect.
And it all started with EverQuest! You see, Classic EQ was FIERCELY competitive, because the game had ZERO isntances. The entire game was open world, including Dungeons & Raids.
Sony introduced the *_Legends Servers_* where, for triple the monthly sub-fee, your guild would be guaranteed a weekly raid slot, alongside things like higher rare drop & spawn rates in dungeons.
Those players could gear up in a FRACTION of the time and then transfer back to their original server. And this included PVP servers, where gear was EVERYTHING.
Rip EverQuest and RIP PlanetSide 2
Imagine a series that you pay for to watch once, its filled with filler episodes and you have to pay 5$ to skip each filler episode. (They're so boring you'll want to do it).
That's what timesavers in games feel like.
Yup, paying money so you don't have to play the game you just bought :S
This shit is insane
That was my first reaction the first time I saw premium "time savers" in a game. Like, why the heck would I pay MORE money to play LESS game? I don't spend more money to get less toppings on my burger, less features in my car, or less clothing in my closet. You apply this kind of pricing to any other industry, and its complete nonsense. So why is it apparently acceptable in video games?
This is the developers literally telling you that their game is worthless. They are showing you that there is more value in not playing it, than there is in playing it. And at that point, why not just pay nothing, and not play it at all? That's maximum value for minimum cost.
Cosmetics are the problem too. They normalize monetizing and seem "innocent." Why make a quality game when you can just slap skins into a shop (usually price gouged and far better quality than what's in the game), which is also a gateway to inject worse monetizing. The Helldiver 2's are extremely rare and I'm waiting for execs to force the devs to ruin that game as well.
@@doomspud6302 they wouldn't do it if nobody bought that kinda stuff, blame it on comsumers. Why do people get scammed ?
Pretty good analogy tbh
Pay to win wouldn't be a big of an issue if housing wasn't 3k a month, if gas was $2 a gallon again, or if food didn't double in cost in 3 years.
Every game wants to be your only game and for you to spend $200 a month on it. People don't have unlimited money to sink into every new game that comes along.
That's because AAA companies stopped being game development companies. They're now hedge funds that *just so happen* to _also_ make video games.
I think people are just dumb thinking about money, most of my friends won't play wow/ffXIV because of the subscription are too much, but are fine to paying for more than that on lol every month in battlepasses and skins. I just don't understand
well to be fair in WoW you need to Buy the Game, Buy the new Expansion, Pay a monthly Subscription, but than it also has a Battlepass, a way to buy ingame currency and a shop for Cosmetics, Mounts etc so its probably the worst example you could have chosen, but i get what your saying lol
You don't have friends that like what you do, but at least they're polite about it.
Yeah I always think it's weird how someone can drop hundreds on a F2P game but can't bother dropping some money on a paid game. In the end people just value what they like. Battlepasses are at least optional and usually just for skins while a sub completely gates you from playing the game.
Because it's a choice with the f2p game while wow and ff14 are subscriptions and you have to pay upfront to even play them
Bcoz you literally cant play without continuously paying for subscription. They would rather play f2p games and then spend money after some time knowing they enjoy the games, than to outright paying first without knowing whether they enjoy playing or not.
This is why I'm so thankful for games like Valheim for co-op play with friends for no additional costs. V-Rising also put out a really decent pve-pvp game with some solid mechanics and reasonable size. There needs to be more games along these models. Open co-op play with possible pvp and no additional fees after purchasing the game.
Sure but those are not mmos
@@greenfroggood2392the title is "all my favourite games are p2w", not "all my favourite MMOs are p2w"
@@greenfroggood2392 the video isn't about mmos bud
@@Panteni87 The video is about mmos, who cares about the title... watch the video.
@@Walnutsofdoom watch the video before commenting.
But do keep in mind, those inflation calculators use the 'official numbers' for inflation that excludes virtually everything you need to purchase to live, food, housing, fuel, etc. So it's actually more like double or more the difference they claim.
This guy gets it.
inflation is simply the devaluing of currency.
One of my favourite game of all time is Mabinogi and it's where I draw the line for pay to win, despite having everything that would make you think it's the worst.
> The cash shop is Gacha System based
> The gear you get from the Gacha is super cool and powerful, but not better than what you can craft in the game yourself
> The inventory is very limited and you can pay to increase the slots, but you can get countless ammount of pets (they have inventory slots) and bags for free by doing events
> Some summoned pets deal damage/heal when summoned, and this is so powerful that a skilled player with no lag can solo even the hardest content. But again, you can get these from events, and they are account based, so even if you make a new character, you are going to keep them
> You can sell cash shop items to players and use that money to buy the best gear crafted from other players, so in a certain way, you can pay to buy the best gear of the game. But you can also easily earn that money on your own in the game or just become a crafter yourself
> Most of the free costumes are ugly compared to the super cool/cute premium items from the cash shop, but you can buy them from other players
So essentially, just play the game to get what others would get by paying instead of playing
the optional sub is the only model that makes sense, and that optional sub has to find the fine line between being worth it and not worth it. because if it's an auto 100% xp boost or whatever then it doesn't seem optional anymore.
There is however a hybrid model. Similar to what asmon described
You got the base game and to continue after a while, you need to purchase an expantion, season pass or subscription ecc.
Every expantion the base gets a mini quest that gives one a taste of new stuff.
Like a slightly longer quest/mini dungeon and the "we have that armor set at home"
And as long as you are in the same party as the expantion/seasonpass/supscription holder. You can play the expantions with them.
Payday 2 had a similar way of doing things. Only the lobby host had to have the dlc for you to play a new level.
Almost Every dlc you got the "boring version of the new guns.
Basically, such system gets new guys in, gets them to stay for longer, and incentevises cooperation , or allows a group of frends to play together, and eventually, individually purchase the expantions to prevent logistocal nightmares.
Ofc payday locked some things behind dlc. Certain very specialised weapons and builds but the base game has all the builds you will need, dlc adds variety
hi3 catching stray in the thumbnail lmao.
nah deserved
As it should. Its a gacha game. It's a game that targets vulnerable losers with no life using generic waifu characters. A friend told me powercreep has never been alive since they released 2 of the most broken characters.
Prolly my fav gacha and hoyo game
@@Nichole9201 which one
@@Nichole9201better than a sweaty mmo player
Guild Wars 2 is free to play for the entire base game. To unlock the full game, no subscription is needed. Just buy the expansions which are always on sale. It's horizontal progression so there's no reason to spend real money for power. Every cosmetics in the store can be bought with in game gold earned by playing the game. I think GW2 is very fair if not the best model for players.
LOTRO has base game free +5 expasions free....that means a solid 350 hours...theres no better free model
I really feel like guild wars 2 has a great monetization model.
@@kbutta01 no it doesnt, its a cash shop with an optional game attached. which is why they need no sub and can only offer the base game. they make money hand over fist from the whales to support that idea. I see more videos talking about whatever new virtual tat you can get from their lootboxes than their expansions or content.
100%
Warframe the only mmo kind off, where you can pay to win faster but it is not required . You can farm all the warframes,weapons,mods and companions that you can buy with real money the only thing that people who use real money can buy and you can't farm are some cosmetics (tenno gen, prime accessories)
Games in the past didn’t need pay to win to survive but I think it’s greed causing all this and how we as a society have shifted to instant gratification rather than earned gratification
Honestly i dont buy into the bullshit that server cost for MMO is too expensive WoW and other mmos got big and successful without any P2W with a smaller playerbase somehow carrying the production + server cost but now suddenly with more people into gaming and higher general player numbers the cost is "too high" the reality is most of these companies are bloated and overhired and also pay out ridiculous sums to exec positions while providing a experience that is of lower quality then years ago.
Major companies like UA-cam have also stated that server cost is a major money sink and takes the most of the money. Either all the companies are in on it OR servers cost a lot.
well, times have changed. even an old horse like wow with its simple graphics has a cool 300 people working on it these days.
also blizzard is a public company so profits must increase whether or not they actually release a good game.
Estimates range from $120,000 - $150,000 per day to keep a WOW server up and running. So a bit under $5,000,000 a month or so is the common inference. This was posted in January, 2014. Server expenses are high af that’s why many online services games right now are such a risky investment because you need a sizeable player base buying micro transactions and dlcs to keep it afloat then once that’s covered they can get into profits.
@@answering248soooooo completey inflated just like op said
There are/were private servers that hosted much much more than official wow
Bandwidth is CHEAP and renting a server or hell building your own isn't expensive at all
@@Xenphos Of course they are in on it. And no, it is not a conspiracy, there is no collaboration going, they are simply in the same position so they resort to same tactics. Like, what did you expect UA-cam to say when it raises prices/ads more adds? Susan needs a new yacht? We need more DEI hires to feed to get free-pass from gov? Yeah, of course they claim that it is servers, magnetic storms from venus, etc.
i legit wanted a league mmo that was a standard mmo with a league coat of paint. But i respect that the devs dont. im excited to see what they do.
Subscription is 100% still sustainable. Plenty of people can afford $15-$20 per month plus box price. The problem is that big developers now want to reach the global market where a lot of people maybe can't afford subs. I don't think that's worth making the game worse with a shop / cosmetics because it's free. The reality is that people will justify the price if the value is there. Make great games.
There is a huge demographic of gamers that have PLENTY of disposable income and waste it on stupid things like doordash, starbucks, name brand clothes, and electronics. 50 cents a day for hundreds of hours of entertainment per month is a steal.
Global market combined is still bigger than US
How I explain pay to win games is like this: There is 2 Lines and 3 categories - First Category is casual, you play the game on weekends, you don't think too much of it, you play them a couple of hours at night after a long day during that weekend. - The second category is Regular average gamer, you play games as your entertainment, a couple of hours at night and all weekend - it doesn't effect your life. - The third category is hardcore, you play games all the time, your tired at work and all you think about during the day is getting back home to play video games.
Now the two lines that separate these categories are completely different the line between casual and regular is thick - your making a conscience decision of playing during the week off from your regular 2-3 hours during the weekend - it is not normal for you. The line between Regular and hardcore is so thin that you wouldn't know that you crossed over until you see the effects in the mirror one day.
Free to play games: Remove the first line between casual and regular, and get rid of the regular category, all your left with is a thin line between casual and hardcore.
Buy your games people - it's the healthier choice.
You know that you can workout 3 times a week, work/study, meet friends/family in weekend and play after work and in rest free time in weekend? Can be healthy and good at the game. Only issue is if you have hobby to pursue, then you cannot be "hardcore". Game becomes your hobby but you become good at it and can compete. If someone never got interested in anything or need escapism, I think that's fair. Along the way, people can monetize their gameplay/expertise if game is popular.
@@lionart5230 Yeah that's casual - that's fine - that itself is healthy - nothing wrong with that. If you want to play games you buy a game and you can forget about it and play it when you have free time.
F2P games TARGET causal markets and try to suck them into the hardcore market - being that if you don't want to spend money - you have to play the game in a hardcore manner - sometimes with extreme cases like "Oh an event is happening, better block out a time during the day(whether it's at work, or late at night after acceptable sleep times) or else I'll be kicked out of my social group in the game", "Always gotta do my dallies"- That or your spending money on RNG.
and you know what happens to free to play games after the EoS - all that time and money - Gone.
@@lionart5230 To put a final thing to it - Hardcore gamers while spend probably every waking moment playing games - are a lot more stable then a F2P player, being that while you may think and talk about video games all the time as a hardcore player - your not running home or disappearing from work just to play a game for a half hour to an hour.
That itself is when you know the game is controlling you. Hardcore gamers who buy games are really not controlled by a video game - they just play it too much and maybe tired at work or talk about it way too much.
@@fafnirchaos0711 I had one or two games that I saw this issue with. One was Hearthstone and ability to keep only 3 quests so F2P players had to do dailies. Second was Rise of Mythos/Kings and Legends where you got some bonus for first game of the day (along with some upgrades that you were waiting for 24h etc). To be honest never felt like I "have to" do it but if I played the game everyday, I did it all the time except for example vacation/travel where you disappear for 2 days - 2 weeks.
I never had this urge to leave in specific time to play the game though. Seems weird. I am against every single daily, battle/season pass and other FOMO shit.
@@lionart5230 I played 3 games that had all of that stuff in it, and it was based upon the Meta - and the Meta made it so that if you win an event you get rewards based upon the rank you made it to - and FOMO is basically everything because the rewards for winning would make you even more powerful than anybody you ran into - and you will run into these whales in competitive, just to throw it in your face that you never spent money or did your heavy grind.
I also played 1 MMO - one of the first ones - back in high school, spent my entire summer playing that grindfest, and trying to maximize the money i spent on the subscription - and i remember sitting down on the steps of my house 2 days before school started, and wondered where my summer went.
From my experience within those games, and what I've actually seen what happens to people playing those games(one person playing the game in a hospital bed just to help out their guild make it to a high rank) pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said about F2P games.
you buy a game - you have a complete experience - you can put it into your backlog and can make conscience discussions on whether or not you want to play that game casual or hardcore based upon your current situation - and the fact you can play it 10 years later without worrying about the developers EoSing the game because not enough whales are spending money on it.
20:02 👌
I really don’t get the excuse of developing countries for the “free to play” P2W model, because it ends up coating more than a sub long term…
they could just adjust the monthly sub fee in different countires based on there average income could they not??
@@michelsealy3782 how do you cover a case where someone "moves" to a different country to buy a year of subscription at half price
A- Any games that are pay to win don't buy them.
B- If a game has microtransactions or subscriptions in them don't buy them.
Simple.
Bring back subscription mmos and remove all the mtx garbage
A big problem is, what if you buy a game, and one of those things is added AFTER you bought it?
how tf are they going to feed developer then? with air?
C - You get to play one new game every 5-6 years now...
People are too willing to be tempted
Yes OSRS you can buy bonds and sell them for gold sure but i still think its the best of all of them. You cant really buy bonds to get like full torva or something youd have to spend so much to do that. Buying a bond is really good for the start to help you have the money to get the requirements for quest and skills faster but once you get your account leveled enough to make your own money you will never need to buy a bond again and you will prolly be able to make enough gold to never spend real money on runescape again for membership. I usually hate p2w but OSRS bonds I'm okay with.
I still think Anarchy Online had one of the most interesting solutions. Being a scifi game, there were big screens in the hub cities with "ads" for game items manufactured by the fictional corporations in the world.
Eventually they started selling that ad space to real companies and many of them tailored their ads to fit the game world so it wasn't too immersion breaking.
To this day every time I see Fanta I get instant Anarchy Online nostalgia because they had a scifi Fanta ad running there for a while.
You couldn't really avoid hearing the ads when you walked by, but it just felt like normal ambience for the city setting and it didn't clutter your field of view since you had to actually look up at the billboards to see them.
Guide to make an enjoyable mmo:
1) free to play so that everyone can try the game for a while
2) cash shop with only costumes and fashion
3) subscription
If I enjoy the game I will for sure pay for subscription and buy costumes from the shop to support the game. I think FF14 did well, dont know about whats in the shop since I did not look that much into it.
Complete opposite for me. I usually do not enjoy games that have any of that loot crate/gacha whatever p2w mechanics.
Most people with logical sense don't play those games either. Except me, as trash as Shinobi Striker is with hackers, sweaty gamers out that wazoo, and blatant p2w for better jutsus, I still play it and I hate myself for doing so, but damn man the game's fun when it's not raw dogging you with no spit or nothin. I just wish game companies that have actually fun games didn't try their damnedest to ruin it for money.
@@CookiePieMonster
Havent opened up the game in years. I think I played with one of the boys when Healer 6 paths Naruto(S) dropped. Sad that game didnt hold big baller status
I can't image that as all my fav games, are single player games from 2015 to 2001
I retreated to my 90's early 2000's P.C time capsule till this shit is over. See you in 20 years.
problem for me is those games are too short...i need mmo lenght now or i burn out within 2 days
@@kokocaptainqc get a job, it helps fill in the time so you can't spend 2 days straight playing a game.
3:43 I do think there's some nuance to this. If a subscription provides you with, let's say more Gold dropping. Or it improves your chance at some RNG element of the game. Or it gives you a loot box that can grant you some of the best gear in the game. Etc. Then a "subscription" is also P2W in a F2P game. Do I personally care? No. But I wouldn't argue it's not necessarily P2W.
if you plan on playing eso competitively you have to have eso plus, it doubles your bank and inventory capacity, also unlocks the dungeons you haven't paid for via expansions and unlocks a bag that lets you hold unlimited amount of materials.
We had Overwatch in 2016, upfront cost (buying the game) and the only thing that you could spend money on was skins. I miss it.
"Just stop being poor" is very "luxury brand customer" energy. And we all know luxury brands aren't made for rich people.
If something is just a matter of price, there is no satisfaction from achievement itself. If game is P2W, has bot problems, easily available currency etc. it immediately removes any interest I could have it in first place.
Just go play solo games, pay to play, even better
Other games that have the option of Monthly Sub that pretty much opens up most of the game or removes restrictions include: DCU, SWTOR, DDO (to a certain extent), LOTRO (to a certain extent), and the list goes on... It's mostly older MMORPG's, as most newer games typically opt for a F2P or Monthly Sub to reduce restrictions but almost always still include cash shop items to supplement the income even further... Then you get some MMORPG's that went the extreme direction of removing subs but also adding high restrictions requiring expensive cash shop purchases revolving around Character Specific Unlocks vs Account Unlocks... Champions Online is one of the worst ones... As to the subject of future games, EA and Asian Market Games have proven that the F2P and Cash Shop method makes more money over Box+Sub... The MMORPG market of developers are just a bit too afraid from a corporate standpoint (especially publicly traded ones) to take huge risks on a game that may or may not make money within the first few years... Going F2P+Cash Shop is less risky, and typically tends to work against attrition better then a Box+Sub+Expansions method... Honestly, when I look back, the turning point where F2P and Cash Shops began hitting the MMORPG market hard, happened when SWTOR didn't make the kinds of money expected in it's first year... Up to that point, very few bigger Western Market MMORPG's had a F2P model or the addition of a modern cash shop... Regardless if SWTOR got better later, it was too little too late, the market became scarred after that point... And the market crashing in 2008/2009 didn't help...
As to the point of MMORPG's funneling players to the cash shop via the game play... It was always an Asian Market thing, that began worming it's way into the Western Market... Especially after EA began doing it with their games (especially the sports games overseas)... Because it proved to western market gaming developers that the cash shop system, found in most Asian Market games, was a huge money maker... In the same vein as micro transactions with mobile devices... But worse in the PC gaming world, because of the higher prices...
As to the "WoW Killers", until WoW subs drop to super low numbers, or Blizzard comes out with another big MMORPG (which will probably never happen any time soon) that draws subs away from WoW itself, no game ever labelled as a "WoW Killer" has ever killed WoW... Especially when they don't innovate enough to move away from the generic High Fantasy scenario with newer systems that draw peeps in...
I always wondered where Warframe's monetization categorizes here, cause it has pay to win mechanics in its monetization but a huge part of the player thinks its very fair me included.
Edit: I'm always curious about the game's premium currency being tradable.
I think the optional subscription for benefits is the best.
Normally store cosmetics just means nothing cool looking drops from gameplay.
It also means more development time allocated to store cosmetics in detriment of the gameplay.
DOwnside to sub only model is it encourages content and gameplay to play out at .5 speed. And i felt that strongly in ff14 coming from eso. Eso is not perfect but always having access to the game, without being gated by sub, is a must going foreword imo.
idk if I agree with that cause p2w games are even more incentivized to pad out the content. Just look at Genshin Impact's Dickens-level word count. You'd think they got paid by the word. But it's to increase the longevity of the game and keep you always thinking they'll make it better next patch.
@@raevenent751 during shadowbringers I asked my fc about speeding up walking and mount pace, I quit then and there coz literally every step is slowed to pad out the game.
no, not really.mmo players are like locusts you are never gonna have enough content to fill the months between payments for them unless you want to adopt a biweekly release schedule or something stupid like that.
the thing you need to keep in mind is that with a sub you actually have to deliver quality content. the game has to be actually interesting or people are just gonna unsub. with whale economics you just need to cater to your most loyal idiots - much easier.
Eso releases new dungeons or areas every 3 months which come with optional sub or can be bought straight up. That option allows players to play no sub. More options for payment is always the better option for consumers. Neither wow or ff14 are that much greater than their competition to show any type of extra quality coming from sub fees. Like i said, in fact from a gameplay and movement perspective they are much worse.
@@monalisa-bs4zs the word is customer...consumer implies a lack of respect
2:06, lets be real, when they use AI to help develop games, they aren't reducing no prices lol
What I'd love to see in an mmo is a giant tower with a magic hour glass. You can pay to put more sand in. when the sand from the top is gone from the top the game no longer gets further development. then the sand from the bottom starts leaving, and once it's gone the servers go offline.
very direct, everyone in the game knows what it means, everyone can see it from miles away. you can contribute, you get nothing in return but the little bit of sand that you added to the pool.
6:40 Yeah, a subscription is comparatively reasonable because the advantages are limited compared to a premium currency & ingame shop that enables whaling for example. It's still P2W in a strict sense, but so is DLC in general if you can get some crazy equipment from the DLC content that trivializes the rest of the game (i.e. Bethesda games, though that's singleplayer so who cares). All players that pay the entry fee get an equal advantage though so I don't think it's so bad.
You guys said exactly why I don't play P2W games. Why would I pay to be the best in the game and clear everything easily? What's the point of playing the game....? If it's really easy and I can just pay my way to a win why would I want to play it? lol Makes zero sense to me why people do this. Part of the fun is the grind to becoming the strong character you are. That's what MMOs are. Progressing your character from a peon to a champion. If you go from peon to champion instantly you take away the best part of the MMO.
You are a fxxking genius.
You really can't understand why someone who plays video games with the "being the best" goal in mind pays to be there?
Keep in mind, having the most powerful character in a video game literally translates to nothing outside of the video game. Inside the video game however, you are the big dawg that nobody can stand up to. That's a good feeling period.
The person this goal attracts has a very difficult time differentiating personal progress with social progress. To this person, you'd be doing yourself a disservice not taking every advantage.
Everybody plays games for different reasons. You may sit down to play an MMO to build your character's power through work and skill. Somebody else may sit down to grief other players. This person sits down to stroke their ego.
If someone becomes a big dawg that nobody can stand up to. and then a big dawg that nobody can stand up to...
I've seen this over and over again in KR games like NC soft's Lineage, Nexon's Maple Stroy, and etc mmorpgs.
It is simply a business strategy that capitalizes on human psychology. They force us to compare and compete with each other, and that's how games make money.
This method is not only used by Korean game companies, but also by KPOP IDOL entertainment companies. In order to go to a fan signing, the top N people in terms of album purchases are selected. Of course, you only need one album to listen to the music, but you are forced to buy multiple albums. It is said that 800 tons of albums are thrown away every year because they are useless.
@@mr.vindicator4697 yeah and it’s stupid. lol that’s my point. You didn’t have to write a novel. Paying to be the best is dumb. It defeats the point of gaming. Especially in mmos. MMOs are about the adventure.
@@ikiwheese I Guess you didn't understand what I was saying then. It's not dumb to them. It's dumb to not take the advantage. These people have little grasp on reality.
I agree with you from a personal perspective. It's just not about me or you. It's about making money.
My favourite games aren't pay to win.
Yay me!
won't even consider buying a game that has any micro transactions. Im sticking to my ps2 with over100 games. Ill be back when they stop gouging us.
Do you forget that Elden Ring and BG3 exists?
I did the same thing. I'm in a 90's early 2000's pc time capsule.
I think games doing cosmetic-only mtx is fine. (if it has no gambling elements) Its just a different business model and it doesn't harm the player as it does not provide any advantage.
@@hypnogri5457 those that see a problem ther have just so much self restrain that if there is ANYTHING to buy they feel obligated to buy it even if they do so cursing and moaning....its just way stronger them them
i totally believe that you're only playing ps2 games, man. yup
Development costs are one thing; MMOs also have server and maintenance fees to pay. And they are costly. I remember my first MMO was StoneAge, and that was a monthly subscription; it was a wonderful period.
Conan doesn't have pay for convenience items. Most items you can buy or get are midtier at best and it usually costs the same as that level of item, and same material cost to build
Thank god i only play singleplayer games. From ace combat 7, to atelier ryza, and then monster hunter world, or project diva
Based AC/Miku enjoyer
Osrs bonds are barely pay2win, they used to not be worth like 5bucks 5mil coins, now its 13million, yea inflation will make it eventually not worth your time. Spend 100 bucks save a year of grinding if you a casual i guess.. its why most players are iron in osrs
brother not only irons are minority of osrs but being able to literally buy BiS gear with your credit card is the definition of P2W. OSRS is even worse than Korean mmos
@@yrtert7138 any non iron somewhat serious player makes enough gold to buy that gear withour buying bonds(wow token thing for ppl who dont know)
Yes casuals use it to even out the playing field but it doesnt make them good and bis gear is so expensive, im gonna guess the amount of people spending irl cash for full bis ingame gear or even half, is at most a few hundred people. Were talking thousands of euros, yo then use that at places that are still hard for them. Its not like wow or korean actual ingame shops, those are so much worse. We have bad value wow tokens any decent player doesnt spend money on cause they actually so the content the noobs buy the gear for
I know what im talking about maxes 3 accs, soonish 4 (every mode, hc to go)
Idk why you defend korean ingame psychologic shop bullshit vs this either way you just wrong glhf
@@yrtert7138
The BiS gear cost billions of GP(gold). A bond costs 8$(USD) which sells for about 13m now. Just to get a weapon like the scythe it would be 1.6B/13M= ~985$, for one item(that can be lost by being PKed while being skulled, for example).
I think you get it that it is not the way to get it. For PVP you just need to get good, that way you get there faster, for PVMers it is more irrelevant to buy GP through bonds, as that's what they enjoy doing, while making consistent GP to keep going in case they lose an item.
All my favorite streamers are pay to watch
Use adblock, problem solved
@@slizeres easier to complain and do nothing apparently
This is why I enjoy FFXIV... yea it has a cash shop but its all cosmetics basically and you can't even access it via ingame....
best pay-to-win system in a MMO is for Warframe.
You can spend real money to get some powerful characters and weapons that are lock or hard to farm,, or you can make in-game coins from farming and buy them from other players in-game store.
Basic any playr can have same powerful upgrades, armor, weapons but will be a race in between poor players that will invest hundred of hours to farm those stuff versus wallet-warriors that will have them in a blink of eye.
don't worry guys, soon, AoC will save us all.
If you are expecting wow 2 from aoc u will be disappointed, aoc it's L2+archeage systems
Even so I expect the worst player base on that game, that devs won't be able to control
Age of Conan? been out since 2008
14 absolutely has pay to win in the form of instant levels and story skips. Its design is so bad, there's no endgame or competitive skilled activities anyways for them to add that form of pay-to-win. Not a good solution to have pointless item level-based grindfests for cosmetics only.
A lot of players don't care about the "pay-to-win" as long as it doesn't ruin the in-game economy. You want that thriving auction house with appropriate pricing. Then, instead of grinding for gear, you grind for currency...and buy your gear from the auction house. Some people even view THAT as "pay-to-win". And that's not fair. That's literally how the game works.
15:59 actually indeed, paying players for an advantage is 100% different than spending in cash shops
I think the monetization of Halo Infinite was the biggest killer of that particular game. I and my friends actually really enjoyed it. Then it show me the shop, where all the shit that used to be important you can just buy. Combine that with their failed promises and I just got more depressed about it the more I logged in. We played it for a month, and it wasn’t for the gameplay we left. The halo 3 recon armor was a great example, I didn’t complete the challenges I just woke up or came back from school one day and looked in my locker and had it so I must’ve played with a Bungie dev and I still to this day wonder if I bodied him or not. Probably not. You could wear what you were proud of and it would incentivize others, when I got the recon I felt like I won the lottery.
I saw a chatter ask what's wrong with grind skips. The grind was added in by the dev, they make the grind crazy long so you're incentivized to buy a skip for a grind they put in, to make you buy the skip
Paying for Crystalline Aura in Lost Ark is the biggest waste of money. It costs anywhere from 12k-14k gold for a 30 day subscription, and one character doing weekly raids makes more than that in one week.
Like Anarchy Online. You have a free version but you can pay a monthly sub to access Expansion zones for more levels/gear/content.
A major reason is bc servers cost money to run. This is why so many ppl say Single player offline games are A NECESSITY. Multiplayer games cost a lot more to keep going. Offline games dont need servers and ppl to run servers.
2nd life model could work, players create their own cosmetic items and sell to eachother with purchased currency, they can then convert back into real money with the game taking a cut, infinite cosmetics, company gets funds, no p2w
As a massive Warframe player I am a bit biased towards the game but I would hardly call it pay to win and most of the stuff is actually inconvenient to buy lol the only things that are convenient to buy are boosters which can basically make you play half as much to earn the same amount. I could go further in depth if someone wants. Almost everything in the market other than cosmetics is a massive fucking ripoff but that’s okay because you can earn them fairly quickly and no one buys them anyways. You can only purchase prime frames when they are initially released and it’s very expensive from the market. BUT the difference is you can trade to get plat to just trade for the prime parts. For example protea prime just came out and for the frame, weapons, exclusive cosmetics only obtainable from this purchase, 2 90 day boosters and it’s $140. But I can buy or trade for about 200-250 plat and get all of it minus the boosters and cosmetics from another player. $20 will get you 370 plat. Regular frames cost 325 plat and is a complete ripoff because almost all of them are easily obtainable. Weapons vary in price but are also a ripoff and easy to get by playing. The major difference between buying from a player or the market is the market will come finished where as you have to build it using resources if you get it from a player. Because Warframe gives you the ability to be a complete f2p player (like myself) but still be able to do any content, I don’t find it to be a p2w game at all. There is nothing in the game you have to purchase to stay relevant or strong or for instance they added a new “endgame” that you can only run once, no matter what. If you just play the game enough and there’s something you don’t have that you want to get, you just trade people your leftovers and buy what you need.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are still a handful of 2D MMOs like Adventure-Quest and Mech-Quest that are still supported and prefer $5 subscriptions, which is quite cheap if you're into 2D JRPGs.
I think the monetization of Halo Infinite was the biggest killer of that particular game. I and my friends actually really enjoyed it. Then it show me the shop, where all the shit that used to be important you can just buy. Combine that with their failed promises and I just got more depressed about it the more I logged in. We played it for a month, and it wasn’t for the gameplay we left. The halo 3 recon armor was a great example, I didn’t complete the challenges I just woke up or came back from school one day and looked in my locker and had it so I must’ve played with a Bungie dev and I still to this day wonder if I bodied him or not. Probably not.
i disagree with pay for convinience is the same as pay to win, poe if you use the first 60$ you dont gain more by using more money.. tho it makes it more convinient and maybe faster to put stuff for sale but imo this is pay to play then its up to you if you wanna use 60$ or 1000$
Ideally an MMO would be first section (~5 hours of content) of the game is free, $20/mo subs after that, then a lot of cool physical merch (not in-game cosmetics), paid social options like guild halls, paid expansions every 12 months, and a buy all previous expansions for $60 if there's been a bunch.
I think the biggest issue is the games that are released unfinished, or like the new assassins creed, hide a singular mission behind a paywall. Gamers will pay the money to enjoy the game, but the game has to be enjoyable.
The specific ways inflation breaks society are actually very funny when observed in isolation XD
ESO has quite a bit of monetization but honestly the game is great. So many options and so many builds possible. The housing in ESO is top notch but if you want to get into housing you better be ready to open your wallet. I've spent way more on ESO than I ever did on wow but I like ESO better too.
@2:17 “ in the future when games are cheaper to develop…”
Why do you assume games will be cheaper to develop? The cost of everything is constantly going up. NOTHING is cheaper than what it was 20 years ago. So I’m very confused why people always assume “The future will be cheaper”…
HE said... AI. Im a computer eng. you can now use co pilot to write code... they all use the same engines now with just different skins.. you can put a new gme out in like a month no problem so ya you can put a new game out monthly and make it P2W and suckers will spend.
@@tickertape78 no he said games will be cheaper to develop. sorry but i dont believe it's going to be that easy. if people flood the market with AI coded trash it will be the 1980s game market crash all over again.
@@BeachLookingGuy FR? All the MMO's and MMORPG and online are all same engine with different skins.. you can put a new game out in a week.. Look at ROK COC COD ROD evony.. Whiteout Survival... Was frozen City.. Now WOS made 1 bil... Look at last of rrafts and Arctic Wild.. exact!! Same with all the other "Games" there is nothing useful created.. Civ in 2025 is humanity's last go lmao. Now to go play mech domination or bugtopia or Ant's of one form or another...For the Horde!! I mean Swarm.
A big part of this is that most of these devs belong to large corps that are publicly traded so the pressure for line to go up never stops. NO AMOUNT OF PROFIT WILL APPEASE THE BEAST
It would be lovely if all mmo or mmolite games could function on the same level as warframe which you literally never need to pay money to get the store currency. You can farm material to sell to players for the currency. It's perfect for everyone. Waeframe is very niche in that way though
I think one reason PTW games still have popularity might be because of time consumption. I prefer an mmo that everyone has to work to get better gear etc instead of pay however i can see how ppl that like mmo’s but dont have the time to compete with ppl that have a ton of free time might prefer paying money to skip the grind and go straight to the end game stuff. Which is why games like that still exist.
P2P is the worst thing ever happened to gaming.
Not only it gatekeeps players from playing if they are poor, but it also locks away everything you built if you stop paying.
GW2 has the best monetization if you ignore cash-shop: free core game, paid expansions.
Servers got so much more efficient over the past 20 years. They could easily do 10$ subscription now and still make more money than back then. Lets say in 2004 1k people were able to play on a server and now it's more than 10k. And the costs for running the servers didn't went up 10x the amount from 2004.
Eve onlines subscription is alright. Pay to unlock full game but you can eventually buy the subscription with in game currency.
I always find it funny, the people who would say a sub fee is too much will be nine times out of ten will also be the one dropping 200 bucks on cash shop items monthly for a free to play pay to win shovelware title.
Players agency is a thing. What's the scriptures you have no agency. Put microtransactions you do.
If you stop paying the subscription, you cannot play. If you stop buying microtransactions, you can still play the game.
It doesn't take much thought trying to figure out why people prefer microtransations over Subscriptions.
Its why i like Guild Wars 2 its over all pretty easy to get into anything in the game with out the cash shop and u can trade gems for gold but doesnt overly effect anyone in game as its so easy to get armor and weapons.
I know you hate to mention it, but GuildWars2 honestly has some of the best monetization in the industry.
You can play the core game for free for as long as you want, the expansions are fairly priced, there's no monthly sub whatsoever. The gem store exists but it is truly optional. While there are a lot of skins for sale there is a ton of good looking cosmetic items you can only get from gameplay. There are convenience items such as bank tabs but they aren't necessary unless you are investing hundreds of hours into the game.
You can convert gems into gold, but making gold in game isnt predatory, in fact I know quite a few players who have never bought gems and solely convert gold to gems for their purchases. At the same time you really can't use gold to make your character stronger, the highest tier of gear can only be acquired through gameplay and is account bound on acquire.
The options to spend money are there, however it's balanced very fairly, respecting players time and giving the developer an outlet to fund the game.
Guy who spent 10 years paying to win defends corporation saying it’s the only way they can make games. Giving them the ol gawk gawk 3000 aren’t you
You're 100% correct that gamers have the power to change these things. It's also not just with games but with all corporations. Without your wallets even the biggest can fall. The problem is people have gotten far too passive. Never be loyal to a company which is screwing you over. Don't make excuses for them; all that does is enable them to get worse. If you truly care about a game series or company, then speak up and put your foot down when they badly mess up. Every little step they take in the wrong direction, which you support them regardless of (oh it's just ) is a step you've allowed them to get worse. That isn't love for a game or company, that's enabling their destruction.