This is becoming one of my favorite podcasts. It's not silly, or goofy, or full of young kids. These guys are real gentlemen talking about chess and personal issues. They approached this issue like real gentlemen. The didn't cover it up or anything. They pointed out what they knew and didn't know and was clear that they found the entire thing very shocking and disappointing. It's nice to see men who are honest enough to admit when they made mistakes, and where they made their own missteps.
I think people don't realize how differently people can act based on who is around them especially predators. The ones that do this for so long have a sixth sense for who will oust them and turn them in. They aren't just bragging about sexual assault with everyone who interacts with them. We all need to be on the lookout for stuff like this and protect each other but we shouldn't assume that anyone who is friends with a criminal knows about or condones their behavior.
you are missing the point here. he isn't a criminal yet. he hasn't gone to court. there is no evidence. proof? not sure how you can just simply use the word "criminal" so lightly here.
@@NormCantoral Of course he's presumed innocent but he was speaking about cases where that would be true. I did not see a direct accusation beyond the existing one.
@@phenix2403 what signs would you expect to see during a broadcast? Ted Bundy could talk chess in front of a monitor and it’s not like you would have a clue
Thank you, guys, for commenting on this in such a clear and considered fashion. I was one of the people who complained about your previous comment and it means a lot to hear you say all this in such unambiguous terms, especially knowing that you have worked closely with Alejandro Ramírez and consider him a friend.
Subject addressed with the seriousness and decorum it required, thank you. I fear, given the nature of the chess circuit, the problem could be much wider. Hopefully, this will encourage more people to come forward, and for chess to put in place measures to protect players.
What do you mean "given the nature of the chess circuit"? Are you implying any organization with a majority of men will be rife with sexual abuse? Try that logic out but with a different group than "all men" to see how outrageous and insulting that is. This is straight up bigotry logic, getting upvoted by 31 people. Well, you know how it goes, everything people do - good and evil - is part of human nature, so it makes sense that many people would possess some forms of bigotry / statistical thinking without recognizing how unfair it is against the group that generalities are being applied to. Rise above that and judge individuals not groups. There is absolutely zero reason to suspect there is prolific sexual abuse throughout the chess community. Jesus Christ.
18:06 Fabi recognising some reasons why victims may not choose to come forward is definitely appreciated. It’s a very mature understanding and much needed in times like this…imIt’s easy for some in the general public to judge and question why so-and-so didn’t speak up earlier etc but an incident could be so traumatic that the victim just doesn’t want to relive the trauma or has just blocked it out for their own mental health reasons. In this context, really commend Fabi’s level of understanding here. Heartbreaking to see this unfold…
Facts. Way too often, ignorance about that aspect of the issue taints what would otherwise be constructive and morally sound statements. These guys did well.
US Chess allowed him to be coach of US women's olympiad team even after it was known to US Chess since 2020. Wow! They intentionally put the women in danger.
@@markcederberg1 It’s just that they has a working relationship during the 2018 WC. Of course, just because he worked as a second for Fabi doesn’t mean there’s a problem with Fabi’s character…
Alejandro put the ENTIRE STLCC in a tough spot…….wait until the lawsuits are filed, they will probably demand 8 figures $$$$$$$$. Alejandro won’t be the only person that is sued, too.
Very nice discussion and addendum to your previous non-take. This is a respectful and measured discussion of the situation. Thanks for revisiting this topic!
Any discussion of this that doesn't hold the St. Lous University and the chess club accountable for ignoring the issue for YEARS and thus enabling further predations ignores fifty percent of the issue. But its always the same story with these types of criminal acts. No doubt Alejandro is going to be rightly vilified and punished. But the people who gave him the position and power to abuse young women for years while having been made aware of his proclivities and actions will never have their feet put to the fire the way that they should.
Did the University know anything prior to Jen’s statement? If they never received any reports, then there’s not much they could have done. But they did react immediately after Jen spoke up. With the SLCC it’s different, because they did receive reports and seem to have done nothing.
Not even a single word about due process and the the fact that this man's life is now completely destroyed in light of allegations? Does he not have any rights? Is this how it works now? When the sh*t hits the fan, you receive in a single instant accusation, verdict and sentence. Then that's it: you're cancelled. Isn't that a little fast, considering there may be strong disagreements nowadays on where to draw the line between "flirtatious" and "predatory"? I'm not denying there is one, but where is it exactly? Who can say? Don't you want to hear his side of the story? Or is this in itself "blaming the victim", as the phrase goes? The scariest part is I don't see anybody even mention this in the comments. Scary times, folks. Many congratulated Fabi and Cristian on the way they approached the issue; I get the position they're in, and I don't think I could have done better, but in the end it seems to me like they give in to the mob, like just about everybody.
There have been over 10 accusations. Yes, this is how it works in the modern age. If you are a public figure who has been doing things like this, expect it to blow up in your face one day. Karma sucks huh? Welcome to the real world.
Of course this is a much worse and more serious situation than Niemann’s, which in hindsight seems so minuscule in terms of honesty and chess health. Chess is people, and people must be granted safety, physically and emotionally
Why didn't you say anything about the St. Louis chess club? They gave very bad statements that they were not responsible for anything even though they heard about the allegations very early on.
I agree, the response from St. Louis was completely unacceptable and should be a major focus along side with Alejandro being punished to the full extent of the law.
They are employed by the Chess Club, so it really was in their best interest not to address that topic. Statements need to come from the general manager of the Club or their lawyer.
They do not represent the club. Unless they are employed as the clubs spokesperson or lawyer they cannot articulate what the clubs position is - mainly because they don't know what it is.
I love that your podcast tackles things like this and mental health. It’s rare and valuable to see men at the top of hyper competitive fields talk so openly about this stuff. I am subscribing.
I AM SO IMPRESSED by how you both have handled this from the beginning!! These are incredibly important issues and your initial patience and desire for more information followed by your detailed, balanced and open discussion of an absolutely IMPOSSiBLE situation to address - 2 well know friends and shocking allegations of sexual harassment - has been done as well as could be done. I will also second the comments that your podcast has quickly become my favorite! PLEASE continue to bring us the behind the scenes looks at all the issues that you cover. There will always be critics but the people who agree w/ your approach usually just agree and don’t post - I wanted to tell you there are way more of us than them - Best always to you both!
What about the role of the Saint Louis Chess Club? According to the article Ms. Shahade came out with the allegations in 2020, and the club did not draw at least personal consequences to Mr. Ramirez within 2-3 years?? Instead there was nothing more than silence and bad jokes for this period of time! For me this sounds like ignorance eye closing and consequently the club put himself in a state of complicity.. And if today the Saint Louis Chess Club remains to be silent, it is an act of cowardness and disrespectful to all victims in this case. Simply not a good place for young women to learn chess! And a little bit unfortunate that you did not address this in this episode
It's understandable, Cris himself being coach of women chess players it's so embarassing and shocking for him as well that his friend/colleague turned out to be such a predator.
I found it very concerning that some people (on reddit etc.) immediately jumped to the conclusion that you two had to know about this and be guilty of covering it up. It's not that simple and in your position I would have found that very upsetting. Hope this episode puts an end to that.
@@fal2218 as a woman, you'd be very surprised that even in a tight-knit community, this whole ordeal can go unheard for YEARS and I'm speaking from experience. That's why sexual assaults even in an immediate family scope can happen and go unnoticed, these predators don't just go everywhere being an open book, especially those who are cunning and very manipulative.
I thought the "open secret" was that he was very flirtatious. A far cry from abuse, but when allegations did come out, people were less surprised because of that characteristic. EDIT: tbf Fabi does address this at 11:20
May I offer a suggestion regarding the monetization. I think you guys should monetize the video, be transparent about the earnings and donate the money to an organization that provides support to women victims of sexual assault. Thanks for the discussion and update on this matter, guys!
come on guys, why you took down the podcast with Alejandro? i mean im not defending him but i think that was not necessary, i mean, is not your fault that he have made all that shit...
Glad you guys addressed this. Would be great to see a podcast with Jen or another woman chess player discussing how the chess community should move forward with this.
Hey guys, don't forget that episode is still up on Spotify. Also I know it's hard to imagine that this can happen in your community but I think any community allowing minors to be at parties with adults will have these abusers. It's disgusting but not surprising.
Some people are complaining about Jen Shahade going public and the manner in which she did so (i.e. Time's Up). Keeping it quiet and asking responsible officials to do something about the situation got her absolutely nowhere. She was told to call Alejandro and deal with it herself, which is asinine. What else would you have had her do?
come up with evidence, have proof? the party she was at with Alejandro had more people there. did she tell any of them? did you stop to think that the officials she complained to might have asked her if she had proof? and if she said no??? what is anyone suppose to do? the US gov't, the state gov't, the local gov't??? they aren't going to be bothered without proof !
@@RL.777 Fair point. And yes, some kind of verification should be used. His accusers could be exaggerating for example, or mischaracterising him. Also, the other women who came forward may be doing so to support their friend, Shahade, or even out of sheer spite.. It's not implausible. You've all seen those gym videos on tiktok that have been talked about lately where women accuse men of being creeps when they were only trying to help them. All this woke ideology has messed with peoples heads in a big way. Personally, I'm leaning a slightly more towards Alejandro conducting himself inappropriately.. But the fact is, I dont know. And I think some verifications will be necessary to substantiate the accusations so that we're not left with "It's my word against your word".
@@bubsadoozy Yes. If you dress one way versus another way, then it's logical to expect that you may be treated differently. But it is in no way an invitation for someone to make sexual advances on you or treat you disrespectfully for example.
@@bubsadoozy Then I suppose a man dressing with his genitalia showing in front of women and girls is also acceptable, unless we’re dealing with a double standard
@@RL.777 How is the onus on women to dress conservatively rather than to educate men not to "treat women like french prostitutes"? The loss of "modesty" doesn't mean we can justify what you're failing to properly label sexual assault.
I've been lobbying USCF for a policy to prevent known, convicted sex offenders with crimes against children to be barred from playing. There is atleast one such individual in Rhode Island / Massachusetts who did time for child porn and assaulting a 14 yr old girl who has been allowed to play in big tournaments in MA , NY, and other states. This puts all children at risk and I don't feel an urgency at all from USCF or state organizers. Now that this is out in the open, hopefully something gets done because they all know and are enabling chess to be a safe haven for sexual predators. I'm a National Master and lifelong chess enthusiast, but I am also a parent and I'd rather burn chess to the ground than allow children to be hurt.
It's honestly shocking that there aren't already rules to that effect. Sports organizations involving kids should be required to implement similar regulatory safeguards to those of scholastic organizations. They're inherently easy environments for predators to operate within, and there'll always be some risk of that in any large community, so it's vital to implement the best evidence-based practices that reduce the opportunities for and incidence of harms. And I can see reasons someone might argue against background check rules, but as someone who's involved in a lot of advocacy for chronic trauma populations (and so I'm close to a lot of offenders, including some good people who have been unjustly caught in the sex offender net) ... I know a lot of them feel similarly about it being crucial to protect kids from those people who've earned their convictions, rather than worry about the mislabeled people these practices could exclude from recreational activities like sports coaching or competition. We have to make rules that are the best for the majority and the most vulnerable. Anyway, thanks for the work you do, and for piping up about this so more of us know that USCF has some serious problems to fix. It's certainly a deal-breaker for me on participating in or encouraging anyone else to participate in their system.
I would be very surprised if Ramirez was innocent of these allegations. But due process remains a very important principle. Ramirez must be given a chance to defend himself in a court of law. Until then he is an alleged abuser and the women alleged victims. Groups of chess people or chess bodies are not adequate replacements for the legal system. These accusations should be investigated by the judicial system.
Thanks for talking about this in more detail, I didn't care or know much about Alejandro before your podcast episode with him. This episode definitely feels like a debriefing from that
I remember in the Saint Louis Chess Club broadcast of 2015 Norway Chess hosted by Jennifer and Alejandro (at that point it was pretty much always Jen and Yasser the hosts), people complained a lot about the quality of Jennifer chess comments and she was replaced by Tatev. Now we know why it must have been so uncomfortable for Jen to share screen with your abuser.
@@abhishekkj9664 Yes, he assaulted her twice about 10 years ago, and when she informed her bosses at the STLCC they basically told her to deal with it herself and made it her problem. Once she learned that he has been abusing others, including young girls, she made the very brave choice to speak publicly about her own personal traumatic experience with him, which I’m sure she would have rather kept private. Leaders in the STLCC and UCSF knew about Alejandro’s proclivities for years and did little to nothing, so Jen was forced to alert the media in order to hold him and his enablers accountable.
At the Sinquefield Cup in 2017 (I think it was), I sat in an analysis room that Alejandro Ramirez and Cristian Cirilla were running. Nothing struck me about Alejandro except that he clearly projected an attitude of superiority over the poor patzers who were honored to be in his presence. He even made a comment (kind of half-joking) to the effect that he could've been doing something else, but he was stuck in this room with us. Cristian seemed like a genuinely nice guy.
has this been reported to the police? seems to me (non us-citizen) that this is very illegal and reporting to the chess federation is not my first thought
That decision is up to each girl. The police cannot do anything except write a report documenting what they’ve been told unless one of the girls tells law enforcement they want to formally press charges against Alejandro.
@@kc910 Yeah that's essentially right and very close to exactly right, hope it's cool if I piggyback to elaborate: For criminal law, victims don't actually make decisions about whether a case starts going to court, rather, the prosecuting attorney for the jurisdiction does. Sometimes (especially often in cases like this) a victim's personal testimony is the only or strongest evidence available, so if local laws say that's enough to indict and the DA thinks there's a case, then the decision _may_ in effect fall to the victim in those instances because it's their prerogative to decide to testify or not and no indictment can happen without them. But my point is, if the DA/indicting prosecutor doesn't think there's enough for a case according to local laws, then victims may have no options to pursue criminal justice at all. So yeah, you're spot-on that with SA typically a police report is all that can come of it. It's just that even if a victim wants to do all they can to make a criminal case, sometimes their local laws or local system doesn't even have a way for that to happen. I have no idea how it works in other countries when it comes to low-evidence crimes like SA. And idk how I'd fix our system. But to the best of my understanding, this is the main reason why our criminal justice system is a crap resource for SA victims.
The article references StL CC officials joking about the matter. I don't doubt your account, but I also don't doubt people at the club knew before it went public. I'd be interested to hear about whether you are considering what your future relationship with the club will be.
Thank you both for addressing this sensitive and disturbing topic, but I strongly disagree with your ending statements. There is something more you two can do here. You can use your platform to condemn the USCF and the SLCC for their irresponsible, unethical behavior. Regardless of the guilt or innocence of GM Ramirez, these two organizations behaved horribly, and in a manner that may even be legally irresponsible and liable.
I thought you guys were rightly criticised a couple of weeks ago for the very minimal response to what happened (my reasoning of which I typed in that video). I think you guys deserve to be rightly praised for this video. Excellent response. You addressed points from a personal and professional perspective and looked at the bigger picture - that this isn't just one man and one instance, this is an issue which needs looking at to ensure the safety of young children (particularly young girls) in chess. I hope someone with the empathy and well-spoken nature of Fabi can be brought in to accelerate change at the grass roots level (football term, I don't know the chess equivalent).
The US Chess Federation moved to St Louis last July, so they should have been on top of this situation. What happened? Did Rex move to protect one of his "guys?" Did the USCF go along with Rex? There needs to be an external review of the inaction by the USCF. Some complaints vs Alejandro were known in 2000. It appears the USCF did nothing.
@@AhPhoey oh yes.. it was of course 2020. But always nice to have sarcasm. Unless adly, course, the type confused you so seriously that you weren't able to follow the argument.
@@jackm4457 Why do you say "of course"? How did I know that you weren't telling the truth? And with all the craziness I thought you actually had new breaking news to share from his past. Turns out it was a ruse.
Most daring Chess Pod. You talk about the Elephant in the room, all the time. Fabi has become my new Chess Hero. I want him to win. :D Cheating, money, and now sexual abuse. For me the Open is also a fight for Democrazy. And against lies and propaganda. And your interviews, letting interesting people tell their storys, helping them with good questions, are high journalistic quality. Keep it up. Thanks from Scandinavia!
@@rehtekhatake6973 Absolutely fcuking ridiculous that these organizations might have known about it and chose to do nothing. There needs to be some accountability.
Very honest. However, you did not speculate or criticise the US chess organisations. I can understand why you did this, but I hope that you ask these questions in private using the power that you have? There is obviously some blame there, and more could have been done?
Thanks for the mature discussion, fellas. There is obviously no place in chess or in society for such behavior. My sympathies to any victims of such behavior....
Jesus christ, reading that article genuinely made me sick. I hope he get's punished to the full extent of the law, and I absolutely expect him to see prison time for this. He was put in a position of power where parents trusted him with their kids and he fucking violated them. It's very hard to explain how furious that makes me. That being said I think you handled this situation well with this video. There was definitely a need to elaborate after the short mention you made on the podcast, and I think you explained your reasoning well here. It's extremely important that these things are taken seriously, and players at the highest level will always be role models that form the culture at lower levels. There is without a doubt still an outdated culture in chess that was established in an extremely male dominated enviornment by a generation with outdated views on what is acceptable.
@@TheTastefulThickness I doubt anyone including OP thinks their take is hyper original/mega brave, per se. But unfortunately, a lot of people are (in effect, albeit generally unintentionally) arguing for positions that conflict with what OP said.
@@TheTastefulThickness What part of "in effect, albeit generally unintentionally" wasn't clear? Lots of people even just in this thread have said things like "leave it to law enforcement" which IN EFFECT is disregarding the actual needs/best interests of victims. In those cases it's unintentional (like I said) but that's still the logical result of their position even if they're ignorant of exactly how their take leads to those implications, generally by way of being ignorant of how useless USian criminal justice is for SA cases. Ditto people trying to "both sides" about it, they're advocating against the legitimate best interests of SA victims even if they don't realize it due to their (valid but here-misplaced) concerns for victims of false allegations. If you agree with OP and with me that the issue matters, then why tf are you being so hostile to us? Is there nowhere more constructive you can direct your sarcasm and interrogative bad faith fake questions? Christ poached on toast
I didn't hear anything about what he actually did. The discussion was extremely circumlocutory. There are many degrees of this sort of thing and this leaves every possibility open for speculation.
I don't know if you already found out/read it yourself after you made this comment, but a WSJ Article was published back then which they referred to in this episode and is linked in the video description of this video. So, if you haven't found out yet, and are still interested, I think it might be worth reading it. Of course, it didn't touch on every instance of what might have happened (for several reasons), but it gives some idea of what he did in several instances.
I think that when they say it was an "open secret" I think the closest take that Fabian got was that it's an open secret in some circles. If you think about the issue with Hans -- it sounds like very high level current SGMs mostly all seemed to know but either older chess players or non-SGMs had no idea. That's not a huge circle. I'm guessing like with what happens a lot with SA that the people who got the reports (like St Louis) all knew once it was reported and a lot of female chess players talked about it like "avoid that guy" -- women do that all the time. Women are also gaslit a lot about SA to minimize it like with Jen -- like people will say why not call the police? Those people have no idea how police would respond to a kiss slammed against the wall -- they will do nothing. Only the underage girls would have a chance if they aren't terrified of coming forward, and they are often very afraid especially if they were drinking underage -- that they will be the ones to get punished (and they might). So it's just so murky... And yeah women will not trust to tell someone's "friends" about it. It says nothing about your character, but it is just too scary.
Yeah for real, it's shocking how much misplaced faith a lot of people here seem to have in law enforcement systems. In most cases even if officers do want to help, the legal logistics just don't work. SA is an inherently low-evidence crime and it's challenging to investigate/indict for it under even the best of circumstances. And yeah exactly, then a lot of people go the other way and minimize it because if it's not an all out r*pe-tier crime then some think it's no big deal. I'm relieved to see the core influencers in the chess community make efforts to be good advocates for and listeners to women and other vulnerable people about topics like this. I've only been down the chess rabbit hole for several months now but I see a ton of good character and strong values among the most publicly visible top players. The behavior they demonstrate, shunning those who predate and making a point to be welcoming and safe to vulnerable players, is a vital catalyst in helping keep the community moving in the right direction.
@@RL.777 Pretending that a victim's clothing has any bearing on assault is like pretending someone's masturbatory habits have any bearing on their risk of being blinded with an acid attack. Your comment reeks of anti-data ignorant puritanical victim-blaming.
@@RL.777 An analogy about a cigarette in a freaking combustible garage is not a "fact" related to sexual assault. That's not a feeling. It's a fact that they are not the same thing.
Thank you guys for covering this. It feels like nobody is willing to do it, and I think that's wrong. You guys are doing the right thing - I know he's friends with many American chess players, but this also means we need to be extra careful and always side with the victims - there's too many, and there's nothing to talk about. Everyone's known about this stuff for too long, and it's really not okay - minors are involved and it's bad.
Hey guys, appreciate the de-monetization, but then you're just giving youtube free money. Instead, why not monetize and give the money to some kind of NGO which helps victims of this kind, or to a chess org promoting girls and women in chess. Thanks for addressing this and giving it the attention and seriousness it deserves.
Imagine devoting your entire life to chess since childhood, only to nuke your entire career because you can't keep your hands to yourself. Bro better get practicing the beggar's cup gambit, he's gonna need it
What would a court say? Public humiliation by a woman who promotes poker (which is a thing related to nudity). Yes. Actual evidence of being assaulted. No. The problem in depth is that we think we're smarter than G-d: Genesis, Joseph and Potiphar's wife. Read and get wise. This problem already existed ~3400 years ago. Go to court - stop fooling around. There is a punishment for false allegations as well. Makes sense - shaming a person for life? His wife, children, relatives...
Would not be surprised if allegations are motivated by other behind the scenes quarrels, tough to imagine Jennifer would remain silent for a decade when she is so openly political and anti misogyny. It just seems fishy, no one has suspected anything like this from Alejandro??? Then Boom! End Him!
for the last couple years since Jennifer hasn't come back to do any of the big events in St. Louis, its been Alejandro in her chair. coincidence? and the article states that its Alejandro who has been paid the most in his tenure with the chess club. coincidence ? the lawyer for the chess club said they weren't aware of any misconduct, BUT they did hear about ALLEGATIONS as early as 2020.
Open secret or not, in the chess world as in the non chessworld, there are guys who go at least one step too far. I also know of people in my Nations chessworld who are like that, everyone knows but it is sadly enough tolerated or ignored in a way, so i would be not surprised if it is the same in the US
yep, and in the article it says that Jennifer and Alejandro were at a small gathering in a large house where the incident occurred. so the next logical question is, why didn't she tell the others who were there?
might be more productive to keep the video up with an amended description and put all the future earnings from it towards maybe womens shelters instead of just throwing it down the memory hole
Applaud you for covering this, considering that you are closely associated with Saint Louis Chess club and have the righteousness to make a public coverage of this.
This is becoming one of my favorite podcasts. It's not silly, or goofy, or full of young kids. These guys are real gentlemen talking about chess and personal issues. They approached this issue like real gentlemen. The didn't cover it up or anything. They pointed out what they knew and didn't know and was clear that they found the entire thing very shocking and disappointing. It's nice to see men who are honest enough to admit when they made mistakes, and where they made their own missteps.
Rational, straight-up discussion of a serious matter. Thanks.
It was literally them distancing themselves from alejandro so no one blames them in any way more than it was meant to be educational
Listening comprehension 2/10
@@TheTastefulThickness there's always one
@@TheTastefulThickness You literally don't know the meaning of the word literally.
@@davidhale8034 Not an argument
I think people don't realize how differently people can act based on who is around them especially predators. The ones that do this for so long have a sixth sense for who will oust them and turn them in. They aren't just bragging about sexual assault with everyone who interacts with them. We all need to be on the lookout for stuff like this and protect each other but we shouldn't assume that anyone who is friends with a criminal knows about or condones their behavior.
Exactly like the serial killer whose neighbours all claim that he was the salt of the earth.
You can rest assured that the victim in question here is quite well-protected.
you are missing the point here. he isn't a criminal yet. he hasn't gone to court. there is no evidence. proof? not sure how you can just simply use the word "criminal" so lightly here.
@@NormCantoral Of course he's presumed innocent but he was speaking about cases where that would be true. I did not see a direct accusation beyond the existing one.
@@NormCantoral The problem is if he's innocent, multiple women are liars. Both can't be true. Take your pick on who you wish to offend.
No need to engage people taking a serious matter as an opportunity to troll
@@nicbentulan booby Fischer
yeah, from the way he acted on screen I would have never thought he did this stuff. Even his "playboy reputation" is surprising to me
@@phenix2403 what signs would you expect to see during a broadcast? Ted Bundy could talk chess in front of a monitor and it’s not like you would have a clue
@@nicbentulan fischer was pedophile
No respect to her at all. It sounds like she is just trying her best to trash Alejandro. Who knows what her motives are?
Thank you, guys, for commenting on this in such a clear and considered fashion. I was one of the people who complained about your previous comment and it means a lot to hear you say all this in such unambiguous terms, especially knowing that you have worked closely with Alejandro Ramírez and consider him a friend.
Subject addressed with the seriousness and decorum it required, thank you. I fear, given the nature of the chess circuit, the problem could be much wider. Hopefully, this will encourage more people to come forward, and for chess to put in place measures to protect players.
What do you mean "given the nature of the chess circuit"? Are you implying any organization with a majority of men will be rife with sexual abuse? Try that logic out but with a different group than "all men" to see how outrageous and insulting that is. This is straight up bigotry logic, getting upvoted by 31 people. Well, you know how it goes, everything people do - good and evil - is part of human nature, so it makes sense that many people would possess some forms of bigotry / statistical thinking without recognizing how unfair it is against the group that generalities are being applied to. Rise above that and judge individuals not groups. There is absolutely zero reason to suspect there is prolific sexual abuse throughout the chess community. Jesus Christ.
Sexual abuse could be much wider than 1 person? No way. You know there are also MURDERERS in chess too.
Oh all male players must be sexist right, what a patsy.
@@AG-ld6rv he's drunk the feminist kool-aid a little too much.
18:06 Fabi recognising some reasons why victims may not choose to come forward is definitely appreciated. It’s a very mature understanding and much needed in times like this…imIt’s easy for some in the general public to judge and question why so-and-so didn’t speak up earlier etc but an incident could be so traumatic that the victim just doesn’t want to relive the trauma or has just blocked it out for their own mental health reasons. In this context, really commend Fabi’s level of understanding here. Heartbreaking to see this unfold…
Facts. Way too often, ignorance about that aspect of the issue taints what would otherwise be constructive and morally sound statements. These guys did well.
There could be other reasons a victim might not want to go to the police in a case like this one.
@@robbielock8422 Also very true
Thank you for this very thoughtful and informative discussion of a delicate but shocking scandal in the chess world.
US Chess allowed him to be coach of US women's olympiad team even after it was known to US Chess since 2020. Wow! They intentionally put the women in danger.
Glad you guys are addressing this. Hope you guys and everyone you know are doing okay
Alejandro has put Fabiano in a very rough spot.
It's a good thing to speak out about it. To face it right away.
what do you mean? what did Alejandro say about Fabiano?
@@markcederberg1 It’s just that they has a working relationship during the 2018 WC. Of course, just because he worked as a second for Fabi doesn’t mean there’s a problem with Fabi’s character…
He wasn't his second, but was in his team.
Alejandro put the ENTIRE STLCC in a tough spot…….wait until the lawsuits are filed, they will probably demand 8 figures $$$$$$$$. Alejandro won’t be the only person that is sued, too.
Fabiano is not exactly the major victim here...
Yes it is a shock. Alejandro would have been the last person I would have thought could do something like this. But looks are deceiving.
I have always been a big fan of Caruana precisely because of his objetivity and matureness.
Agreed, dude is a class act
Very nice discussion and addendum to your previous non-take. This is a respectful and measured discussion of the situation. Thanks for revisiting this topic!
Any discussion of this that doesn't hold the St. Lous University and the chess club accountable for ignoring the issue for YEARS and thus enabling further predations ignores fifty percent of the issue. But its always the same story with these types of criminal acts. No doubt Alejandro is going to be rightly vilified and punished. But the people who gave him the position and power to abuse young women for years while having been made aware of his proclivities and actions will never have their feet put to the fire the way that they should.
Did the University know anything prior to Jen’s statement? If they never received any reports, then there’s not much they could have done.
But they did react immediately after Jen spoke up.
With the SLCC it’s different, because they did receive reports and seem to have done nothing.
@@Solvir It says in the article that she told University officials as well as USCF and Chess club officials. Years before the tweet.
Yes. To be honest i was very disappointed they didn't talked bout it in their conversation.
Fabi is one of the most educated, articulated and well reasoned elite chess player.
Not even a single word about due process and the the fact that this man's life is now completely destroyed in light of allegations? Does he not have any rights? Is this how it works now? When the sh*t hits the fan, you receive in a single instant accusation, verdict and sentence. Then that's it: you're cancelled. Isn't that a little fast, considering there may be strong disagreements nowadays on where to draw the line between "flirtatious" and "predatory"? I'm not denying there is one, but where is it exactly? Who can say? Don't you want to hear his side of the story? Or is this in itself "blaming the victim", as the phrase goes? The scariest part is I don't see anybody even mention this in the comments. Scary times, folks. Many congratulated Fabi and Cristian on the way they approached the issue; I get the position they're in, and I don't think I could have done better, but in the end it seems to me like they give in to the mob, like just about everybody.
There have been over 10 accusations. Yes, this is how it works in the modern age. If you are a public figure who has been doing things like this, expect it to blow up in your face one day. Karma sucks huh? Welcome to the real world.
Good discussion. But I wish you would've discussed the reports (WSJ) that the St Louis Chess Club sat on reports for years and did nothing.
Of course this is a much worse and more serious situation than Niemann’s, which in hindsight seems so minuscule in terms of honesty and chess health. Chess is people, and people must be granted safety, physically and emotionally
Why didn't you say anything about the St. Louis chess club? They gave very bad statements that they were not responsible for anything even though they heard about the allegations very early on.
I agree, the response from St. Louis was completely unacceptable and should be a major focus along side with Alejandro being punished to the full extent of the law.
I may be wrong, but I think this episode was recorded prior to the statement from SLCC being released.
They are employed by the Chess Club, so it really was in their best interest not to address that topic. Statements need to come from the general manager of the Club or their lawyer.
They do not represent the club. Unless they are employed as the clubs spokesperson or lawyer they cannot articulate what the clubs position is - mainly because they don't know what it is.
I love that your podcast tackles things like this and mental health. It’s rare and valuable to see men at the top of hyper competitive fields talk so openly about this stuff. I am subscribing.
I AM SO IMPRESSED by how you both have handled this from the beginning!! These are incredibly important issues and your initial patience and desire for more information followed by your detailed, balanced and open discussion of an absolutely IMPOSSiBLE situation to address - 2 well know friends and shocking allegations of sexual harassment - has been done as well as could be done. I will also second the comments that your podcast has quickly become my favorite! PLEASE continue to bring us the behind the scenes looks at all the issues that you cover. There will always be critics but the people who agree w/ your approach usually just agree and don’t post - I wanted to tell you there are way more of us than them - Best always to you both!
Really nice to see you guys finally address this issue properly, huge props to you! I cannot imagine it being an easy position to be in.
Oh damn, a dedicated episode? I sure didn't expect that but it's welcome
What about the role of the Saint Louis Chess Club? According to the article Ms. Shahade came out with the allegations in 2020, and the club did not draw at least personal consequences to Mr. Ramirez within 2-3 years?? Instead there was nothing more than silence and bad jokes for this period of time! For me this sounds like ignorance eye closing and consequently the club put himself in a state of complicity.. And if today the Saint Louis Chess Club remains to be silent, it is an act of cowardness and disrespectful to all victims in this case. Simply not a good place for young women to learn chess!
And a little bit unfortunate that you did not address this in this episode
100% agree. They should have talked about it.
St Louis chess club invites him to tournaments, which he still attends, and profits quite lucratively from. Pretty shameless.
Was really looking forward to you addressing this situation and you didn't disappoint.
Oh really? What did u learn
@@TheTastefulThickness don’t be ‘this guy’ = 🤡
Unlike hikaru gloating and schadenfreude this is a solid discussion.
Thats not what I got from hikarus video
I was looking forward for you guys to talk about it.
It's understandable, Cris himself being coach of women chess players it's so embarassing and shocking for him as well that his friend/colleague turned out to be such a predator.
Two gentlemen of chess, thanks for being so serious and respectful about this
ST Louis admitted a few fonths back that they knew it all along and didn;t do anything.
I found it very concerning that some people (on reddit etc.) immediately jumped to the conclusion that you two had to know about this and be guilty of covering it up. It's not that simple and in your position I would have found that very upsetting. Hope this episode puts an end to that.
People love jumping to conclusions on the internet from the safety of anonymity.
US chess community is very small. They definitely knew or at the very least had heard something
Why would they know? This isn’t something people gossip about. The people closest to the abuser are often the last to know.
@@fal2218 even finegold whose known them all for years was "taken aback"
@@fal2218 as a woman, you'd be very surprised that even in a tight-knit community, this whole ordeal can go unheard for YEARS and I'm speaking from experience. That's why sexual assaults even in an immediate family scope can happen and go unnoticed, these predators don't just go everywhere being an open book, especially those who are cunning and very manipulative.
I thought the "open secret" was that he was very flirtatious. A far cry from abuse, but when allegations did come out, people were less surprised because of that characteristic.
EDIT: tbf Fabi does address this at 11:20
All make chess players must be sexually neutral, or gay, or be banished from the game
Kudos to you guys for talking about it!!
Chess has some really good people, such as these guys, and I guess some very bad people as well. Chess is life.
Chess is just a board game.. certainly not life
@@sayandas5 It's a metaphor
Chess is love, chess is life
@@sayandas5u r dumb
Sport/business/education/(insert anything) has some really good people and I guess some very bad people as well.
That's deep.
May I offer a suggestion regarding the monetization. I think you guys should monetize the video, be transparent about the earnings and donate the money to an organization that provides support to women victims of sexual assault. Thanks for the discussion and update on this matter, guys!
Its their work they should keep the money.
come on guys, why you took down the podcast with Alejandro? i mean im not defending him but i think that was not necessary, i mean, is not your fault that he have made all that shit...
Glad you guys addressed this. Would be great to see a podcast with Jen or another woman chess player discussing how the chess community should move forward with this.
I think it would have been wise to bring in a woman's voice to this conversation
Thats like asking, "how do we deal with murderers" lol.
@@TheTastefulThickness 🙄
how about women not waiting 10 years and just going directly to the police.
Hey guys, don't forget that episode is still up on Spotify. Also I know it's hard to imagine that this can happen in your community but I think any community allowing minors to be at parties with adults will have these abusers. It's disgusting but not surprising.
Damn Alejandro really hit that pedophile gambit abuse variation
Curious to see how you handle this terrible story
The anti-rizz demon strikes again
Update half way through: good discussion
What's there to handle? They didn't do anything
@@poohoff If there's a wrong set of actions there is a right one. They discussed what they knew openly. What else did you want from them?
10 fking years, like come on. what the fuck can society do when someone waits 10 years. my god.
Some people are complaining about Jen Shahade going public and the manner in which she did so (i.e. Time's Up). Keeping it quiet and asking responsible officials to do something about the situation got her absolutely nowhere. She was told to call Alejandro and deal with it herself, which is asinine. What else would you have had her do?
come up with evidence, have proof? the party she was at with Alejandro had more people there. did she tell any of them? did you stop to think that the officials she complained to might have asked her if she had proof? and if she said no??? what is anyone suppose to do? the US gov't, the state gov't, the local gov't??? they aren't going to be bothered without proof !
I feel like if someone does that, there's no going back. He crossed the line. Biggest blunder in chess history.
@@RL.777 Fair point. And yes, some kind of verification should be used. His accusers could be exaggerating for example, or mischaracterising him. Also, the other women who came forward may be doing so to support their friend, Shahade, or even out of sheer spite.. It's not implausible. You've all seen those gym videos on tiktok that have been talked about lately where women accuse men of being creeps when they were only trying to help them. All this woke ideology has messed with peoples heads in a big way.
Personally, I'm leaning a slightly more towards Alejandro conducting himself inappropriately.. But the fact is, I dont know. And I think some verifications will be necessary to substantiate the accusations so that we're not left with "It's my word against your word".
Dressing is a particular way is not consent. It in absolutely no way justifies or excuses sexual assault.
@@bubsadoozy Yes. If you dress one way versus another way, then it's logical to expect that you may be treated differently. But it is in no way an invitation for someone to make sexual advances on you or treat you disrespectfully for example.
@@bubsadoozy
Then I suppose a man dressing with his genitalia showing in front of women and girls is also acceptable, unless we’re dealing with a double standard
@@RL.777 How is the onus on women to dress conservatively rather than to educate men not to "treat women like french prostitutes"? The loss of "modesty" doesn't mean we can justify what you're failing to properly label sexual assault.
I've been lobbying USCF for a policy to prevent known, convicted sex offenders with crimes against children to be barred from playing. There is atleast one such individual in Rhode Island / Massachusetts who did time for child porn and assaulting a 14 yr old girl who has been allowed to play in big tournaments in MA , NY, and other states. This puts all children at risk and I don't feel an urgency at all from USCF or state organizers. Now that this is out in the open, hopefully something gets done because they all know and are enabling chess to be a safe haven for sexual predators. I'm a National Master and lifelong chess enthusiast, but I am also a parent and I'd rather burn chess to the ground than allow children to be hurt.
It's honestly shocking that there aren't already rules to that effect. Sports organizations involving kids should be required to implement similar regulatory safeguards to those of scholastic organizations. They're inherently easy environments for predators to operate within, and there'll always be some risk of that in any large community, so it's vital to implement the best evidence-based practices that reduce the opportunities for and incidence of harms.
And I can see reasons someone might argue against background check rules, but as someone who's involved in a lot of advocacy for chronic trauma populations (and so I'm close to a lot of offenders, including some good people who have been unjustly caught in the sex offender net) ... I know a lot of them feel similarly about it being crucial to protect kids from those people who've earned their convictions, rather than worry about the mislabeled people these practices could exclude from recreational activities like sports coaching or competition. We have to make rules that are the best for the majority and the most vulnerable.
Anyway, thanks for the work you do, and for piping up about this so more of us know that USCF has some serious problems to fix. It's certainly a deal-breaker for me on participating in or encouraging anyone else to participate in their system.
I would be very surprised if Ramirez was innocent of these allegations.
But due process remains a very important principle.
Ramirez must be given a chance to defend himself in a court of law.
Until then he is an alleged abuser and the women alleged victims.
Groups of chess people or chess bodies are not adequate replacements for the legal system.
These accusations should be investigated by the judicial system.
Wanted to hear your take on this. Thanks for addressing this issue
Bring Jennifer on the podcast for addressing larger ‘women in chess’ topic
As there's a strong possibility of litigation, Jen has probably been instructed by legal counsel not to speak publicly on the matter.
@@randybailin4902 but she tweeted publicly? hmm??
Too little, too late for some of the young girls. I want to know why Jennifer was not (obviously not) taken seriously at her FIRST complaint.
Thanks for talking about this in more detail, I didn't care or know much about Alejandro before your podcast episode with him. This episode definitely feels like a debriefing from that
I remember in the Saint Louis Chess Club broadcast of 2015 Norway Chess hosted by Jennifer and Alejandro (at that point it was pretty much always Jen and Yasser the hosts), people complained a lot about the quality of Jennifer chess comments and she was replaced by Tatev. Now we know why it must have been so uncomfortable for Jen to share screen with your abuser.
what ? Shahade knew about misconduct then ? Ramirez made advances on her as well ?!
@@abhishekkj9664 Yes, he assaulted her twice about 10 years ago, and when she informed her bosses at the STLCC they basically told her to deal with it herself and made it her problem. Once she learned that he has been abusing others, including young girls, she made the very brave choice to speak publicly about her own personal traumatic experience with him, which I’m sure she would have rather kept private. Leaders in the STLCC and UCSF knew about Alejandro’s proclivities for years and did little to nothing, so Jen was forced to alert the media in order to hold him and his enablers accountable.
@@Updog89 yup, the assault was in 2011
@@Updog89 what did he do exactly? Generally speaking people are innocent til proven guilty right?
Why don't minors at parties have chaperones?
They enabled this behavior
At the Sinquefield Cup in 2017 (I think it was), I sat in an analysis room that Alejandro Ramirez and Cristian Cirilla were running. Nothing struck me about Alejandro except that he clearly projected an attitude of superiority over the poor patzers who were honored to be in his presence. He even made a comment (kind of half-joking) to the effect that he could've been doing something else, but he was stuck in this room with us. Cristian seemed like a genuinely nice guy.
To be fair, had you been a 12-year-old girl, he would have been very happy to share time with you.
has this been reported to the police? seems to me (non us-citizen) that this is very illegal and reporting to the chess federation is not my first thought
That decision is up to each girl. The police cannot do anything except write a report documenting what they’ve been told unless one of the girls tells law enforcement they want to formally press charges against Alejandro.
@@kc910 Yeah that's essentially right and very close to exactly right, hope it's cool if I piggyback to elaborate: For criminal law, victims don't actually make decisions about whether a case starts going to court, rather, the prosecuting attorney for the jurisdiction does. Sometimes (especially often in cases like this) a victim's personal testimony is the only or strongest evidence available, so if local laws say that's enough to indict and the DA thinks there's a case, then the decision _may_ in effect fall to the victim in those instances because it's their prerogative to decide to testify or not and no indictment can happen without them. But my point is, if the DA/indicting prosecutor doesn't think there's enough for a case according to local laws, then victims may have no options to pursue criminal justice at all.
So yeah, you're spot-on that with SA typically a police report is all that can come of it. It's just that even if a victim wants to do all they can to make a criminal case, sometimes their local laws or local system doesn't even have a way for that to happen.
I have no idea how it works in other countries when it comes to low-evidence crimes like SA. And idk how I'd fix our system. But to the best of my understanding, this is the main reason why our criminal justice system is a crap resource for SA victims.
@@ItsAsparageese Thank you both so much! TIL a lot :)
The article references StL CC officials joking about the matter. I don't doubt your account, but I also don't doubt people at the club knew before it went public.
I'd be interested to hear about whether you are considering what your future relationship with the club will be.
Yes. To be honest it was a little disappointing they didn't talked bout that or StL CC negligence in general
Siding with Jen! What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? You guys make it sound like women don't lie, cause they do.
Yeah, _surely_ a dozen women AND young girls just made up sexual assault. Must be a gender-wide conspiracy.
Allegations do not equal guilt. Let's remember that.
Thank you both for addressing this sensitive and disturbing topic, but I strongly disagree with your ending statements.
There is something more you two can do here. You can use your platform to condemn the USCF and the SLCC for their irresponsible, unethical behavior. Regardless of the guilt or innocence of GM Ramirez, these two organizations behaved horribly, and in a manner that may even be legally irresponsible and liable.
I thought you guys were rightly criticised a couple of weeks ago for the very minimal response to what happened (my reasoning of which I typed in that video).
I think you guys deserve to be rightly praised for this video. Excellent response. You addressed points from a personal and professional perspective and looked at the bigger picture - that this isn't just one man and one instance, this is an issue which needs looking at to ensure the safety of young children (particularly young girls) in chess.
I hope someone with the empathy and well-spoken nature of Fabi can be brought in to accelerate change at the grass roots level (football term, I don't know the chess equivalent).
Why? Because they waited for more info to come out?
@@griffinq8003 EXACTLY .. & AMEN
The US Chess Federation moved to St Louis last July, so they should have been on top of this situation. What happened? Did Rex move to protect one of his "guys?" Did the USCF go along with Rex? There needs to be an external review of the inaction by the USCF. Some complaints vs Alejandro were known in 2000. It appears the USCF did nothing.
In 2000 Alejandro was 11 years old. Who was complaining about him then? I'm surprised the Wall Street journal didn't run with this.
@@AhPhoey oh yes.. it was of course 2020. But always nice to have sarcasm. Unless adly, course, the type confused you so seriously that you weren't able to follow the argument.
@@jackm4457 Why do you say "of course"? How did I know that you weren't telling the truth? And with all the craziness I thought you actually had new breaking news to share from his past. Turns out it was a ruse.
@@AhPhoey Wow... so you were not being sarcastic? You REALLY thought I was alleging sexual assault by an 11 year old Alejandro? Really?! wow.
@@jackm4457 I never thought you were deliberately lying when writing that. You tricked us all.
Very respectful and mature discussion of a difficult topic. Well done!
Thank You for speaking up
Why doesn't U.S. Chess insist on chaperones for social gatherings to make sure the underage players aren't served alcohol?
Alejandro was an adult and coach of the team…in a sense, he WAS the chaperone
If it’s not an official event, it’s not their place to have to do so. That’s the job of the parent.
Most daring Chess Pod. You talk about the Elephant in the room, all the time.
Fabi has become my new Chess Hero. I want him to win. :D
Cheating, money, and now sexual abuse. For me the Open is also a fight for Democrazy. And against lies and propaganda.
And your interviews, letting interesting people tell their storys, helping them with good questions, are high journalistic quality.
Keep it up. Thanks from Scandinavia!
Democracy was never a good idea
@@TheTastefulThickness you don’t like to think before typing things out to the world, do you?
@@robdubent How do you know my secrets
Really appreciate this podcast
Great conversation.
You could monetize the video and donate the proceeds to an organization that promotes women and girls in chess.
Man you both sound so sad towards the end... the whole thing sucks
So who actually knew about it and chose to overlook it and ignore it, and why?
Apparently the StL CC and the U.S. chess federation
@@rehtekhatake6973 Absolutely fcuking ridiculous that these organizations might have known about it and chose to do nothing. There needs to be some accountability.
Thank you for addressing this
Very honest. However, you did not speculate or criticise the US chess organisations. I can understand why you did this, but I hope that you ask these questions in private using the power that you have? There is obviously some blame there, and more could have been done?
Great job talking through this guys, I appreciate the patience to let things develop, and level headed discussion.
Thanks for the mature discussion, fellas. There is obviously no place in chess or in society for such behavior. My sympathies to any victims of such behavior....
Anybody remember the simpsons episode about marge as a teenager dating artie ziff?
If you've seen it you know what i mean
No way that's so spot-on whaaat
The resemblence is uncanny wtf
I wonder if it was an open secret among the _women_ in chess
The women who voted for him to be their Olympiad coach? Not likely.
So do we know if all this actually was true?
6:43 am in Athens, I just returned home from an all nighter at bars and clubs and now it is time for my favourite podcast
I don't think you should remove the video with Ramirez. I really don't see a reason to.
They don't want to be seen being chummy with Ramirez. They were closer with him than they're letting on in this segment.
Jesus christ, reading that article genuinely made me sick. I hope he get's punished to the full extent of the law, and I absolutely expect him to see prison time for this. He was put in a position of power where parents trusted him with their kids and he fucking violated them. It's very hard to explain how furious that makes me.
That being said I think you handled this situation well with this video. There was definitely a need to elaborate after the short mention you made on the podcast, and I think you explained your reasoning well here. It's extremely important that these things are taken seriously, and players at the highest level will always be role models that form the culture at lower levels. There is without a doubt still an outdated culture in chess that was established in an extremely male dominated enviornment by a generation with outdated views on what is acceptable.
Very well said!
U think its important that sexual assault and pedophilia are taken seriously? Wow, what a take.
@@TheTastefulThickness I doubt anyone including OP thinks their take is hyper original/mega brave, per se. But unfortunately, a lot of people are (in effect, albeit generally unintentionally) arguing for positions that conflict with what OP said.
@The plural is actually "asparageese". name 1 person arguing for the silencing of sexual assault victims or not taking pedophilia seriously. Ill wait.
@@TheTastefulThickness What part of "in effect, albeit generally unintentionally" wasn't clear? Lots of people even just in this thread have said things like "leave it to law enforcement" which IN EFFECT is disregarding the actual needs/best interests of victims. In those cases it's unintentional (like I said) but that's still the logical result of their position even if they're ignorant of exactly how their take leads to those implications, generally by way of being ignorant of how useless USian criminal justice is for SA cases. Ditto people trying to "both sides" about it, they're advocating against the legitimate best interests of SA victims even if they don't realize it due to their (valid but here-misplaced) concerns for victims of false allegations.
If you agree with OP and with me that the issue matters, then why tf are you being so hostile to us? Is there nowhere more constructive you can direct your sarcasm and interrogative bad faith fake questions? Christ poached on toast
I didn't hear anything about what he actually did. The discussion was extremely circumlocutory. There are many degrees of this sort of thing and this leaves every possibility open for speculation.
I don't know if you already found out/read it yourself after you made this comment, but a WSJ Article was published back then which they referred to in this episode and is linked in the video description of this video. So, if you haven't found out yet, and are still interested, I think it might be worth reading it. Of course, it didn't touch on every instance of what might have happened (for several reasons), but it gives some idea of what he did in several instances.
@aki97 Thanks very much. So strange to see a sensible reply on UA-cam!
👀
27:46 "it was a chess topic and we... we know chess well, so we felt qualified" hahahahha like no-one could be more qualified on this hahah
This is horrendous, I really like Alejandro. If these accusations are true it will be absolutely appalling.
just read the article once
You STILL like him after all this?
@@bagelized I'm very much of the opinion everyone is innocent until proven guilty. But it doesn't look good.
@@bagelizedlol yeah innocent until proven guilty
that old saying comes to mind. When you point a finger at someone, there is three pointing back at you
I think that when they say it was an "open secret" I think the closest take that Fabian got was that it's an open secret in some circles. If you think about the issue with Hans -- it sounds like very high level current SGMs mostly all seemed to know but either older chess players or non-SGMs had no idea. That's not a huge circle.
I'm guessing like with what happens a lot with SA that the people who got the reports (like St Louis) all knew once it was reported and a lot of female chess players talked about it like "avoid that guy" -- women do that all the time. Women are also gaslit a lot about SA to minimize it like with Jen -- like people will say why not call the police? Those people have no idea how police would respond to a kiss slammed against the wall -- they will do nothing. Only the underage girls would have a chance if they aren't terrified of coming forward, and they are often very afraid especially if they were drinking underage -- that they will be the ones to get punished (and they might). So it's just so murky... And yeah women will not trust to tell someone's "friends" about it. It says nothing about your character, but it is just too scary.
Yeah for real, it's shocking how much misplaced faith a lot of people here seem to have in law enforcement systems. In most cases even if officers do want to help, the legal logistics just don't work. SA is an inherently low-evidence crime and it's challenging to investigate/indict for it under even the best of circumstances. And yeah exactly, then a lot of people go the other way and minimize it because if it's not an all out r*pe-tier crime then some think it's no big deal.
I'm relieved to see the core influencers in the chess community make efforts to be good advocates for and listeners to women and other vulnerable people about topics like this. I've only been down the chess rabbit hole for several months now but I see a ton of good character and strong values among the most publicly visible top players. The behavior they demonstrate, shunning those who predate and making a point to be welcoming and safe to vulnerable players, is a vital catalyst in helping keep the community moving in the right direction.
@@RL.777 I know lots of people with vices and people who dress any which way- none of it is an excuse or open invitation to sexual assault.
@@RL.777 That's an idiotic analogy.
@@RL.777 Pretending that a victim's clothing has any bearing on assault is like pretending someone's masturbatory habits have any bearing on their risk of being blinded with an acid attack. Your comment reeks of anti-data ignorant puritanical victim-blaming.
@@RL.777 An analogy about a cigarette in a freaking combustible garage is not a "fact" related to sexual assault. That's not a feeling.
It's a fact that they are not the same thing.
Thank you guys for covering this. It feels like nobody is willing to do it, and I think that's wrong. You guys are doing the right thing - I know he's friends with many American chess players, but this also means we need to be extra careful and always side with the victims - there's too many, and there's nothing to talk about. Everyone's known about this stuff for too long, and it's really not okay - minors are involved and it's bad.
Hey guys, appreciate the de-monetization, but then you're just giving youtube free money. Instead, why not monetize and give the money to some kind of NGO which helps victims of this kind, or to a chess org promoting girls and women in chess. Thanks for addressing this and giving it the attention and seriousness it deserves.
UA-cam videos don’t make that much money… starting a small donation option from viewers would be an idea maybe
I'm seeing some comments in here victim shaming - chess community, clean up your shit
It has been a while since my latest comment. Keep it up guys 😊✌️👍
Imagine devoting your entire life to chess since childhood, only to nuke your entire career because you can't keep your hands to yourself. Bro better get practicing the beggar's cup gambit, he's gonna need it
Are you new to sexuality? Never heard of people acting in self destructive ways for sex, huh?
What would a court say?
Public humiliation by a woman who promotes poker (which is a thing related to nudity). Yes.
Actual evidence of being assaulted. No.
The problem in depth is that we think we're smarter than G-d:
Genesis, Joseph and Potiphar's wife. Read and get wise.
This problem already existed ~3400 years ago.
Go to court - stop fooling around.
There is a punishment for false allegations as well.
Makes sense - shaming a person for life? His wife, children, relatives...
Would not be surprised if allegations are motivated by other behind the scenes quarrels, tough to imagine Jennifer would remain silent for a decade when she is so openly political and anti misogyny. It just seems fishy, no one has suspected anything like this from Alejandro??? Then Boom! End Him!
for the last couple years since Jennifer hasn't come back to do any of the big events in St. Louis, its been Alejandro in her chair. coincidence? and the article states that its Alejandro who has been paid the most in his tenure with the chess club. coincidence ? the lawyer for the chess club said they weren't aware of any misconduct, BUT they did hear about ALLEGATIONS as early as 2020.
Open secret or not, in the chess world as in the non chessworld, there are guys who go at least one step too far. I also know of people in my Nations chessworld who are like that, everyone knows but it is sadly enough tolerated or ignored in a way, so i would be not surprised if it is the same in the US
Yes the world is full of sexual abuse. Ty.
I’m going to be honest. Given his demeanor I would have though Ramirez would be way too timid to SA anyone. But I guess I was wrong
Was it proven?
Why did Jennifer not report him to the authorities after her incident?
yep, and in the article it says that Jennifer and Alejandro were at a small gathering in a large house where the incident occurred. so the next logical question is, why didn't she tell the others who were there?
Good job on speaking up I know you guys would have said something sooner if you any idea this was going on. Chess has no place for predators.
How do you guys have a different set every time :)
appreciate the discussion
might be more productive to keep the video up with an amended description and put all the future earnings from it towards maybe womens shelters instead of just throwing it down the memory hole
Or you guys could have monetize the videos, but donated the money to some charity for rape victims or something..
Applaud you for covering this, considering that you are closely associated with Saint Louis Chess club and have the righteousness to make a public coverage of this.