Thanks for the integrity you display in making a balanced presentation of all the facts. Your avoidance of polemics is refreshing - especially when we see so much of it from the advocates of determinism.
Extremely interesting, I was wondering what happened with microtubule research, thanks for posting. It looks very promising, the transfer over microtubule length and rhe switchoff effect of anesthetics, hopefully a new branch of science gets awoken after all the criticism this research received. It was pathetic how the existing brain "experts" were trying to torpedo Roger and Stuart's ideas.
Really enjoy the popups showing referecences. Would you please consider including those references (or links) in the episode notes? Excellent discussion. The popups from Stuart's talks/slides are also excellent additions to what is otherwise a podcast discussion. Good idea! Does anyone know of a link for Stuart Hameroff's current slide deck(s) he uses when presenting on these topics?
Have spent several hours watching this now - and still not reached the end... So many interesting ideas and research results I keep going back and starting again.
Thank you Justin! I watched every single video and I learned so much from you that it was so easy to watch this. This extends now to being able to listen to Sir Penrose and feel like I can follow his ideas easily😊❤
So, I stopped at 39:14 3 weeks ago and then came back to this video today... In the shower this morning I was thinking about Dr. Igwe's line in the game Prey, "I think consciousness is more like music than computation." I come back here and it's immediately what Dr. Hameroff goes into. 😸 Igwe was such a great nod to Hameroff and Penrose. ♥️
I think it makes perfect sense. By combining the wave functions to create a slower wave it allows the quantum processors to operate at the slow speeds of of the biological neural net.
I appreciate your work Justin and i really like Stuat effort to undestand something about conscience. I think you should exchange ideas also with Michael Levin and try to understand if a very simple albeit studiable organism react to obstacle, food or danger: can be understood if he reacts intelligently or automatically? what are its molecular sensors, how they activate responses? I'm not a materialist but my impression is that you undervalue the fact that any chemical reaction is not "just chemistry" but instead ANY chemical reaction emit em some specific waves that propagate freely or constrained by the environment structure/characteristics. Externally we perceive these em waves just as body temperature but every quantum train of them preserve the signature of the particular chemical reaction. So I suggest also to study what are the reactions that maintain active (live) the microtubuli structure and how they change when a stimulus is generated and transmitted. These em waves can propagate from cell to cell or if not absorbed they can travel all the universe (and conversely we can "receive" external emissions). Thanks for your wery good work.
This was such a fascinating discussion, this theory is becoming quite compelling. . It was interesting that Stewart mentioned psychedelics. There is an easily demonstrable but PROFOUND phenomenon that isolates the key role of tryptophan in the manifestation of coherent open eye visual entities when added to the oral administration of the traditional combination of isolated molecules DMT and Harmala. I've pondered long and hard about how a simple amino acid can change the phenomenology of such in-and-of-themselves psychoactive molecules.
This is THE CHANNEL for Orch-OR theory, Stuart Hameroff himself! Free will still feels like its too good to be true, but anyway I will watch more of your videos to form an opinion.
@@JustinRiddle Thanks. He's Nobel Prize worthy as well. But as to "human consciousness being epiphenomenal" even in Orch Or view honestly I don't think "Free Will doesn't matter. Proving Non-computational Nature of Counsciosness will disprove Simulation. And Orch Or combined with Anton Zeilingers work may prove ESP and gave our existence meaning sure. But as to"Free Will " I'm not convinced neither by "human uniqueness" nor by Stuarts arguments. I think it would be better for Orch Or cause to accept that the only thing Dan Dennet got right is that we don't seem to have a Free Will and it's OK. Parapsychology is all right given EPR Paradox and Non-locality but arguing for "free will" looks More and more like defending Santa Claus.
@@christiannavarro3519 It's a direct consequence of Orch Or Theory as a matter of fact. Stuart Hameroff talked plenty of time about how driving a car or doing routine things doesn't constitute Counsciosness per se. Now this magnitude thing. I'm a Panpsychist : Proto-counsciousness is indeed everywhere in the natural world and some animals are even more Counscios than we homo sapiens (birds with their 100 degree body temperature and Magnetoreception via Quantum Entanglement, or dogs-read original Rupert Sheldrake paper he gave also excellent and myth destroying interview on Curt Jaimungal TOE channel). But as to "human consciousness"... Sure you and I are certainly Counscios but defending "Free Will" because of the cultural Judeo-Christian doctrine about humans being divinely created separate from the rest of the Universe... It's ridiculous and harmfull for Hameroffs cause. They are random quantum events and brain is objectively and Non-locally and non-reversibilly collapsing Quantum Computer so you may call it "Free Will" that our behavior can't be predicted , but if you claim "ah counsciosness is Time Traveling to make choosing different futures by subject possible even though it's by definition impossible ". Honestly... Sean Carroll is gonna give you that kind of Free Will. The Prize you will pay would be Everetts Quantum Phildickian! If you accept that Wave Function Collapses Objectively and we live in One and Undivided Universe of Real Realists like David Bohm or Sir Roger Penrose then...you must accept that you and I are part of Physics that is just it Physics... Panpsychic, Non-local, Wonderful but no place for "Human Mind body Dualism"
@@christiannavarro3519 I love Orch Or because it 1 Makes Simulation Impossible which "Materialistic" Theories allow. And makes us connected to the Universe that Is ONE Undived and Entangled. Orch Or also saves, memory, explains better than any other Theory why there can't be Cousciousness under anesthesia and coma and even allows for some kind of precognition for counsciosness when it returnes from anesthesia to be far more mystical. But Free Will as understood by Christians is against every bit of Neuroscience and Physics Orch Or included
By combining the complementary elements of the Penrose-Hameroff and Hoffman theories of consciousness it appears a complete understanding of consciousness is possible. Seems to me the collapse of the wave function inside the microtubule is where the non-computational conscious agent projects it’s influence into space-time reality.
This video is *extremely well done*. Thank you so much for asking the right questions and taking the time to break Stu's answers down. But what's up with the intro and outro music? It sounds like an AI tried to improvise to a 90's techno cassette tape that melted in a car parked in the sun.
You should interview Professor Basil J. Hiley on noncommutativity in quantum consciousness - he just gave a talk last year in the same location with Hameroff and Penrose giving a talk (in Finland).
@@jimmyjasi- Basil J. Hiley has proven that Bohm's model is noncommutative and there is no need to use the wavefunction. Penrose dismisses Everett outright as not falsifiable and absurd. As Alain Connes says all of Western science is based on commutative geometry hence why scientists find noncommutativity to be strange and a nuisance. Even Penrose admits he's not good at noncommutative geometry or quantum algebra math. See Alain Connes talk to physicists - on quantum randomness. Professor Basil J. Hiley is now working on a new paper based on this talk by Alain Connes. Hiley told me it changes physics. "It is really deep stuff which moves us well away from the way physics is normally presented." That's what he wrote to me. So I recommend you study Professor Basil J. Hiley. I think he's done the best to figure out the truth at the foundation of reality as per physics and mathematics. Penrose is closely related to Hiley's work also - you can find them talking together at a recent talk that is on youtube - it is unlisted. go to the website emmy (dot) network (forward slash) mindandmatter (dot) html
What do you think about phase cancellation as it pertains to hertz in relation to resonance throughout microtubules. Could this relate to the perpendicular nature of the centrioles?
It's simple, the plank scale occurs between the cell membranes (consciousness), the variations of gradient are entanglement, and this cause deformation on microtubules formation (memories) that cause different movements of neurotransmitters in the intracellular space (personalities). Anesthetics close the gap of variation on the membrane by freezing the movement of ions, interfering in the top down process. WE ARE TANGLED BY GRAVITY, and our BRAIN WILL EVOLVE MORE IN AN LESS GRAVITY ENVIRONMENT, cause the planck scale variation are increased
@@gehtdichnixan4704 he should've said, I'll summarize here. Simplify would be saying there are really tiny things smaller than an atom going inside our brains that cause consciousness. And a lot of subtle things happen with our brain cell membranes to give us things like like personalities and memories.
Non-expert here, but it occurs to me that the slow 5-10Hz range might apply to ordinary, self-conscious thinking, but there are social and subconscious forms of attentiveness that could be happening much much faster? And maybe self-conscious thought is like the slowest range we have, and could even be a symptom of modern social isolation..practically a disabled form of consciousness?
if the tubule system implements the collapse that represents the internal observer, and thus the experience of time passing, then the same tubule systems' interaction with the neuron network (memory and logic) might enable our "model-making" and predicting ability. how can we predict, or even implement learned reflexes? (catching a ball). it is our ability to model our environment, spacetime and even other people's minds, through "observing" our own neural memory, that allows us to experience prediction, and simultaneous realization with other humans, undergoing their own collapse experience / time passage. if we are modeling the same environment, physical or conceptual, it ends up being "observed" and "predicted" almost simultaneously.
You should have a look at Nima Arkani-Hamed's work... "Spacetime, Quantum Mechanics and Custerhedra at Infinity" on youtube. This is a great video made during the lockdown in 2020... the presentation clearly demonstrates that he has discovered something non trivial... @ 1h 33m into this presentation, Nima briefly shows a diagram of what his theory looks like in Kinematic Spacetime, not some other esoteric space with different numbers of dimensions, but what it looks like right here in our 3+1 spacetime - where we live everyday. I was amazed, shocked, and devastated by this diagram for around 6 months. Anyone who has studied centrioles, cilia, microtubules with regards to how our experience arises, cannot fail to grasp the similarities with Nima's diagrams. Even the cylinder windings (polarity of his helix structures in the diagram) have to be reversed, positive to negative, for them to be connected. This is exactly what we see within the internal structure of neocortical dendrites, where microtubules have a mixture orientation of both positive and negative polarity. Looks to me like his infinity, might actually reside somewhere within the walls of my microtubules, which in hindsight would make sense, as it's me doing the observing, and preserving locality.
It could be just a quantum process, like any other of the gazillion quantum processes out there. The theory claims that it is an essential part of consciousness.
The megahertz is ultrasound with microsecond wavelength that is quantum coherence phase between the left and right ear. Study Dr. Mae-Wan Ho for details. It's not epiphenomenal at all. It's due to noncommutative time-frequency. Study Fields Medal Math Professor Alain Connes lecture, "Music of Shapes" on the truth of noncommutative time-frequency.
I really enjoyed your video. I believe that the more you look for something (ask, seek, knock) the more you will find it. Look for synchronicity and you will find it. I HATED your UGLY HYPNOTIC MUSIC st the end - so NOT aligned with your inspiring and uplifting message. It's like torture chamber music.
That's the Orch part. As far as I understand there is a harmony of coherent quantum oscillations on the lowest scale (benzene rings I believe) that transitions scales upwards (while the frequency goes down) until the top scale (brain) is reached. (Everything after “as far as I understand“ is debatable and subject to research)
This is the most relevant topic of the century
This is an absolute treat for me to watch two of the most eminent personalities discuss about Orch OR
Thanks for the integrity you display in making a balanced presentation of all the facts. Your avoidance of polemics is refreshing - especially when we see so much of it from the advocates of determinism.
Extremely interesting, I was wondering what happened with microtubule research, thanks for posting. It looks very promising, the transfer over microtubule length and rhe switchoff effect of anesthetics, hopefully a new branch of science gets awoken after all the criticism this research received. It was pathetic how the existing brain "experts" were trying to torpedo Roger and Stuart's ideas.
Congratulations on the interview and thank you for sharing with us!
I don't know how, but you manage to explain those concepts so easily that even I can understand, thank you!
Really enjoy the popups showing referecences.
Would you please consider including those references (or links) in the episode notes?
Excellent discussion. The popups from Stuart's talks/slides are also excellent additions to what is otherwise a podcast discussion. Good idea!
Does anyone know of a link for Stuart Hameroff's current slide deck(s) he uses when presenting on these topics?
Have spent several hours watching this now - and still not reached the end... So many interesting ideas and research results I keep going back and starting again.
Been watching both of you individually for awhile now. Great interview!
Thank you Justin! I watched every single video and I learned so much from you that it was so easy to watch this. This extends now to being able to listen to Sir Penrose and feel like I can follow his ideas easily😊❤
Wow oh wow. I love you both and now I get to witness this! Cannot wait to watch!
So, I stopped at 39:14 3 weeks ago and then came back to this video today...
In the shower this morning I was thinking about Dr. Igwe's line in the game Prey, "I think consciousness is more like music than computation."
I come back here and it's immediately what Dr. Hameroff goes into. 😸 Igwe was such a great nod to Hameroff and Penrose. ♥️
I think it makes perfect sense. By combining the wave functions to create a slower wave it allows the quantum processors to operate at the slow speeds of of the biological neural net.
Great interview man. Subscribed
I appreciate your work Justin and i really like Stuat effort to undestand something about conscience. I think you should exchange ideas also with Michael Levin and try to understand if a very simple albeit studiable organism react to obstacle, food or danger: can be understood if he reacts intelligently or automatically? what are its molecular sensors, how they activate responses? I'm not a materialist but my impression is that you undervalue the fact that any chemical reaction is not "just chemistry" but instead ANY chemical reaction emit em some specific waves that propagate freely or constrained by the environment structure/characteristics. Externally we perceive these em waves just as body temperature but every quantum train of them preserve the signature of the particular chemical reaction. So I suggest also to study what are the reactions that maintain active (live) the microtubuli structure and how they change when a stimulus is generated and transmitted. These em waves can propagate from cell to cell or if not absorbed they can travel all the universe (and conversely we can "receive" external emissions). Thanks for your wery good work.
Just found your channel. Loving the content!!
Thanks for this J
This was such a fascinating discussion, this theory is becoming quite compelling. . It was interesting that Stewart mentioned psychedelics. There is an easily demonstrable but PROFOUND phenomenon that isolates the key role of tryptophan in the manifestation of coherent open eye visual entities when added to the oral administration of the traditional combination of isolated molecules DMT and Harmala. I've pondered long and hard about how a simple amino acid can change the phenomenology of such in-and-of-themselves psychoactive molecules.
I'm glad Stuart is now acknowledging water also could be doing quantum coherence also.
This is THE CHANNEL for Orch-OR theory, Stuart Hameroff himself!
Free will still feels like its too good to be true, but anyway I will watch more of your videos to form an opinion.
Absolutely love it.
Thanks! It was a lot of fun to record
@@JustinRiddle Thanks. He's Nobel Prize worthy as well. But as to "human consciousness being epiphenomenal" even in Orch Or view honestly I don't think "Free Will doesn't matter. Proving Non-computational Nature of Counsciosness will disprove Simulation. And Orch Or combined with Anton Zeilingers work may prove ESP and gave our existence meaning sure. But as to"Free Will " I'm not convinced neither by "human uniqueness" nor by Stuarts arguments. I think it would be better for Orch Or cause to accept that the only thing Dan Dennet got right is that we don't seem to have a Free Will and it's OK. Parapsychology is all right given EPR Paradox and Non-locality but arguing for "free will" looks More and more like defending Santa Claus.
@@jimmyjasi-anti-descartes7088 you want consciousness to be epiphenomenal.
@@christiannavarro3519 It's a direct consequence of Orch Or Theory as a matter of fact. Stuart Hameroff talked plenty of time about how driving a car or doing routine things doesn't constitute Counsciosness per se. Now this magnitude thing.
I'm a Panpsychist : Proto-counsciousness is indeed everywhere in the natural world and some animals are even more Counscios than we homo sapiens (birds with their 100 degree body temperature and Magnetoreception via Quantum Entanglement, or dogs-read original Rupert Sheldrake paper he gave also excellent and myth destroying interview on Curt Jaimungal TOE channel).
But as to "human consciousness"... Sure you and I are certainly Counscios but defending "Free Will" because of the cultural Judeo-Christian doctrine about humans being divinely created separate from the rest of the Universe... It's ridiculous and harmfull for Hameroffs cause. They are random quantum events and brain is objectively and Non-locally and non-reversibilly collapsing Quantum Computer so you may call it "Free Will" that our behavior can't be predicted , but if you claim "ah counsciosness is Time Traveling to make choosing different futures by subject possible even though it's by definition impossible ".
Honestly... Sean Carroll is gonna give you that kind of Free Will.
The Prize you will pay would be Everetts Quantum Phildickian!
If you accept that Wave Function Collapses Objectively and we live in One and Undivided Universe of Real Realists like David Bohm or Sir Roger Penrose then...you must accept that you and I are part of Physics that is just it Physics... Panpsychic, Non-local, Wonderful but no place for "Human Mind body Dualism"
@@christiannavarro3519 I love Orch Or because it 1 Makes Simulation Impossible which "Materialistic" Theories allow. And makes us connected to the Universe that Is ONE Undived and Entangled.
Orch Or also saves, memory, explains better than any other Theory why there can't be Cousciousness under anesthesia and coma
and even allows for some kind of precognition for counsciosness when it returnes from anesthesia to be far more mystical.
But Free Will as understood by Christians is against every bit of Neuroscience and Physics Orch Or included
Fascinating and peppered with sci references, I love this. Are the overlay slides available as zip download?
By combining the complementary elements of the Penrose-Hameroff and Hoffman theories of consciousness it appears a complete understanding of consciousness is possible.
Seems to me the collapse of the wave function inside the microtubule is where the non-computational conscious agent projects it’s influence into space-time reality.
great job
Fav new channel
This video is *extremely well done*. Thank you so much for asking the right questions and taking the time to break Stu's answers down.
But what's up with the intro and outro music? It sounds like an AI tried to improvise to a 90's techno cassette tape that melted in a car parked in the sun.
🤣🤣🤣
Great video.
I would love it if a transcript was available.
Note that Aristide Dogariu name was misspelled in the video
Great interview!
You should interview Professor Basil J. Hiley on noncommutativity in quantum consciousness - he just gave a talk last year in the same location with Hameroff and Penrose giving a talk (in Finland).
@@jimmyjasi- Basil J. Hiley has proven that Bohm's model is noncommutative and there is no need to use the wavefunction. Penrose dismisses Everett outright as not falsifiable and absurd. As Alain Connes says all of Western science is based on commutative geometry hence why scientists find noncommutativity to be strange and a nuisance. Even Penrose admits he's not good at noncommutative geometry or quantum algebra math. See Alain Connes talk to physicists - on quantum randomness. Professor Basil J. Hiley is now working on a new paper based on this talk by Alain Connes. Hiley told me it changes physics. "It is really deep stuff which moves us well away from the way physics is normally presented." That's what he wrote to me. So I recommend you study Professor Basil J. Hiley. I think he's done the best to figure out the truth at the foundation of reality as per physics and mathematics. Penrose is closely related to Hiley's work also - you can find them talking together at a recent talk that is on youtube - it is unlisted. go to the website emmy (dot) network (forward slash) mindandmatter (dot) html
I don't know why you keep deleting your comments? I'm supposed to respond to your deleted comments? haha.
Great!
Am i wrong or Stewart has always managed to defend the theory well so far
It will be good to see if other researchers replicate the experiments and build on them.
This is huge!
What do you think about phase cancellation as it pertains to hertz in relation to resonance throughout microtubules.
Could this relate to the perpendicular nature of the centrioles?
When does the paper that refutes the hyped experiment results come out?
It's simple, the plank scale occurs between the cell membranes (consciousness), the variations of gradient are entanglement, and this cause deformation on microtubules formation (memories) that cause different movements of neurotransmitters in the intracellular space (personalities). Anesthetics close the gap of variation on the membrane by freezing the movement of ions, interfering in the top down process. WE ARE TANGLED BY GRAVITY, and our BRAIN WILL EVOLVE MORE IN AN LESS GRAVITY ENVIRONMENT, cause the planck scale variation are increased
Our understandings of the word “simple“ are different.
@@gehtdichnixan4704 he should've said, I'll summarize here. Simplify would be saying there are really tiny things smaller than an atom going inside our brains that cause consciousness. And a lot of subtle things happen with our brain cell membranes to give us things like like personalities and memories.
Does the photosynthesis effect on microtubules related to near death experiences
Great interview
17:34 *Dogariu , as in, Whaddup Aristide?
Non-expert here, but it occurs to me that the slow 5-10Hz range might apply to ordinary, self-conscious thinking, but there are social and subconscious forms of attentiveness that could be happening much much faster? And maybe self-conscious thought is like the slowest range we have, and could even be a symptom of modern social isolation..practically a disabled form of consciousness?
The slower we process, the less freedom we actually have? ie. the more bound we are to deterministic classical physics?
There is a new discovery on superradiance..
Ultra violette superradiance from Mega Networks
Does this makes Hameroff right ?
if the tubule system implements the collapse that represents the internal observer, and thus the experience of time passing, then the same tubule systems' interaction with the neuron network (memory and logic) might enable our "model-making" and predicting ability. how can we predict, or even implement learned reflexes? (catching a ball). it is our ability to model our environment, spacetime and even other people's minds, through "observing" our own neural memory, that allows us to experience prediction, and simultaneous realization with other humans, undergoing their own collapse experience / time passage. if we are modeling the same environment, physical or conceptual, it ends up being "observed" and "predicted" almost simultaneously.
You should have a look at Nima Arkani-Hamed's work... "Spacetime, Quantum Mechanics and Custerhedra at Infinity" on youtube. This is a great video made during the lockdown in 2020... the presentation clearly demonstrates that he has discovered something non trivial...
@ 1h 33m into this presentation, Nima briefly shows a diagram of what his theory looks like in Kinematic Spacetime, not some other esoteric space with different numbers of dimensions, but what it looks like right here in our 3+1 spacetime - where we live everyday. I was amazed, shocked, and devastated by this diagram for around 6 months.
Anyone who has studied centrioles, cilia, microtubules with regards to how our experience arises, cannot fail to grasp the similarities with Nima's diagrams. Even the cylinder windings (polarity of his helix structures in the diagram) have to be reversed, positive to negative, for them to be connected. This is exactly what we see within the internal structure of neocortical dendrites, where microtubules have a mixture orientation of both positive and negative polarity. Looks to me like his infinity, might actually reside somewhere within the walls of my microtubules, which in hindsight would make sense, as it's me doing the observing, and preserving locality.
That's one classy mug of Hameroff's right there
Wow, alright!
Audio boomy and resonant at Mr. Hameroff"s voice pitch ??? Hard to listen and follow.
Great youtube video!
Could it be that the quantum effect in microtubules is some process other than consciousness? What else could it be?
It could be just a quantum process, like any other of the gazillion quantum processes out there. The theory claims that it is an essential part of consciousness.
👍👍
The megahertz is ultrasound with microsecond wavelength that is quantum coherence phase between the left and right ear. Study Dr. Mae-Wan Ho for details. It's not epiphenomenal at all. It's due to noncommutative time-frequency. Study Fields Medal Math Professor Alain Connes lecture, "Music of Shapes" on the truth of noncommutative time-frequency.
the negative resonance is precognitive - look up Penrose's latest talk on the "Science of Consciousness" youtube channel.
"Connected by laserbeams". I... I see what you did there.
I am dying to show off my name Daniel Ray Waters Hazelton Ortiz DRWHO spelled out anagrams true
Read Anirbans papers, most groundbreaking work
Brown Mark Anderson Carol Williams James
I really enjoyed your video. I believe that the more you look for something (ask, seek, knock) the more you will find it. Look for synchronicity and you will find it.
I HATED your UGLY HYPNOTIC MUSIC st the end - so NOT aligned with your inspiring and uplifting message. It's like torture chamber music.
Hameroff is modern Copernicus.
Hi Justin, I also have a question on how by Orch OR do I feel like a single person if by the theory even single cells could be consciouss?
That's the Orch part. As far as I understand there is a harmony of coherent quantum oscillations on the lowest scale (benzene rings I believe) that transitions scales upwards (while the frequency goes down) until the top scale (brain) is reached. (Everything after “as far as I understand“ is debatable and subject to research)
Cells are on an intermediate scale and something between protoconscious and conscious.
@@gehtdichnixan4704 oh, thanks mate, learned something new