Dynamics of Abuse at Willow Creek | What We've Learned with Tim Stevens
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- Former Willow Creek Executive Pastor Tim Stevens unpacks the situation at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. In a transparent conversation, Tim dissects the dynamics of abuse at Willow Creek, outlines the problem with isolated leadership, and covers how to lead when you start with zero trust.
Tim and Carey also discuss how to build a new culture and find momentum as you reach the next generation.
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Chapters
00:00 - Willow Creek's Culture
02:33 - Willow Creek: My Journey
10:07 - Running Into the Fire
16:36 - The Culture of Power Abuse at Willow Creek
21:29 - The Physical Reconfiguration of the Senior Pastor's Office
24:41 - The Culture of the Church
27:06 - Leaders of Willow Church During the Sexual Misconduct scandal
34:32 - The Culture of the Team at Willow
41:12 - Willow Church's Crisis of Trust
44:31 - Staff Values
48:11 - When You Inherit a Legacy Facility
52:54 - Engaging Millennials and Gen Z
55:47 - Why Tim Stevens Retired from Willow
57:33 - The Challenges Facing the Church
01:02:24 - Playing The Long Game in Leadership
I really appreciate this conversation. So positive and constructive when it's easy to spread scandal and tear down. It is easy to forget, this is the church of the living God, we're talking about. We need to be so careful in what and how we say things. Thank you so much for this.
Hope it was helpful, thanks for watching.
What I find absolutely astounding, astonishing and sad about this conversation is that there there is no mention of crying out to Jesus in prayer and fasting for restoration; guidance wisdom. Instead he only talks about trying their new initiatives, methodology, strategies, ideas, culture shift with a very secular approach. Only God’s power and our humility can heal such such devastation. His plan sounds just like any other corporate restructuring.
That was my experience at Willow: extremely corporate
I absolutely agree with you, this is the problem with the Church these days. It’s too much of a business we need to get back to our roots in the early days of the New Testament church when people were highly valued and that they did everything in community together, and they loved one another and thought of each other instead of that you’re just a number or a business project to get the church back up running again. I think also what I found disappointing was that he mentioned how the bloggers were so negative and he didn’t really care for them and even Carey said he doesn’t read these people blogs either. yes, if there are bloggers who are just extremely negative, then I can understand those may not be helpful, but you have to read between the lines. Why are they blogging this way? What trauma have they experienced ? What distrust do they have? And learn from these bloggers I understand he reached out to 1 which was great I think that was a really good step, and those kinds of steps needed to be more taken.
One of the things I loved about this new season at Willow was the focus on prayer we introduced at the staff level. The practice in the past had been "come prayed up." In other words, they weren't going to take valuable staff time for prayer -- do that on your own time -- let's get to work. When we began to take large chunks of staff meetings for prayer and worship -- we really began to come together and heal. Perhaps another time we can unpack that more.
Thank you for the openness and transparency in sharing experiences that became transformative opportunities for the people involved, and now for other leaders in 2024. Carey, your interviewing style moves the conversation and encourages the guest speaker to unpack their experiences and ideas opening the vault to all the guests can offer to the listeners. You are asking the questions we all want answered, even the ones we haven't thought about yet but need to take the next step forward. Your podcast is helping leaders share experiences, knowledge, and wisdom in such an honest form that it is impossible to resist. As Spanish-speaking leaders, we are sharing your podcast and the ideas and wisdom we learn by listening to it. Your podcast is an answer prayer for many leaders around the world. ¡Mil gracias! (A thousand thanks!)
Wow, thank you for watching and sharing, but even more - thank you for the encouragement. I'm so glad this was helpful. Cheering for you and your crew.
Was a member and volunteer at Willow from 2004 to 2008. It’s great to get these insights and bts stuff that helps fill in the blanks I’ve had for years. The unhealthy culture was palpable even for me not being on staff. Very curious if Bill will ever reemerge publicly…..
Carey and Tim, thank you for sharing your many years of experience leading great churches. Appreciated the transparency you displayed and your willingness to add value to leaders of churches and other organizations. Well done!
Thank you William
Tim literally wrote the book that inspired the method by which I was let go from a church. It was the most devastating process of my professional career. After being Worship Pastor at a local church for 10 year, the time had come to transition to another ministry. My hope was that this ministry would be an even longer chapter. A year into my time with this church, the lead pastor sat me down and told me that the church could not afford to sustain my position full time and they would need to let me go. I would not be meeting with my team that night for rehearsal. I would not be participating in service in any way that Sunday. I was done. My credentials had all been revoked. My keys were taken. I was asked to meet with someone else at a specific time to remove my personal belongings from our rehearsal space. I was done. Effective immediately. Nearly 14 years later, the trauma of that experience still haunts me. I had done nothing wrong (and this was verbalized to me and the church)... I was just removed. Being in the height of a recession, this led to 6 years of part time and transitional ministries at three different churches, before finally landing where I have now served for 8 fulfilling years of ministry. Seeing Tim's name on your podcast today made so many of those haunting memories come flooding back. I don't know if Tim would still recommend this "clean cut" method of letting pastors go or not. I can attest to the pain that can result.
I am so sorry that you were let go in that insensitive un Christlike way. It’s so sad how the church is not different from the world. I’m praying that God will continue to heal you because you did not deserve that. I understand the church is sometimes a business, but their first focus needs to be on how they can love and care for people, even if they have to let somebody go, that’s a tragedy what happened to you!❤🙏🏻
Hey Steve -- sorry about your experience. I haven't written any books on terminating employment in this manner. There are times when a church can't afford to keep staff, that certainly was true at Willow. But it's important in those times for the church to be as gracious as they can. We tried to do that well at Willow as we had to right-size the staff with current realities. The only time I'd suggest a "clean cut" as you suggest is when there is destructive behavior. It doesn't sound like that was true in your case.
Carey, I only began watching your videos about a month ago, but love your thoughtful conversations. You are a gifted interviewer. I grew up in Willow, and I am currently in the interview process to be on-staff at Willow. I found this conversation really insightful and encouraging as we work to continue to pick up the pieces at my home church. It has been hard to let go of the Willow I grew up in, and the pain we went through, but am feeling blessed as I see what God is doing in this new era at Willow.
Willow is a brand new church in so many ways, but the good DNA persists. If you end up on staff, I believe you will find it a place of love and care and always new challenges.
Thank you for running TOWARDS us at Willow when so so so many, including one incredibly long time respected foundational church in Chicago, ran AWAY from us in our greatest need. TD Jakes was another that ran towards us. There are so many more to who ran towards us for whom I’m grateful. FFW: We are thankful for Dave Summit.
I appreciate your note Mariah!
I LOVED this conversation. Thank you so much. WOW. I am reading the blogs now and waiting for my e-book. WOOHOO!
Thank you Johnette!
Thanks for watching, glad it was helpful!
Hadn't seen the new office look. Love it! Been listening since Episode 1 and you're still killin the game. Thanks guys!
Glad you enjoy it!
Good conversation. I have some thoughts regarding ignoring the "bloggers" who report negative news about church leaders. I'm in a completely different line of work, but when someone in my profession makes a mistake that has serious consequences, I owe it to my employer and my profession to understand what went wrong at a detailed level. Not to dump on people and feel self-righteous, but to avoid making the same type of mistake myself. I don't know why your profession would be different in that regard. I think there are some common mistakes being made in your profession in our culture's churches that are leading to predictable negative results.
Yeah, I’ve worked in healthcare for 35 years, and you have to make silk purses out of sows ears. I don’t care where info comes from, you have to use it.
Great Conversation.!
Thanks for watching
Thank you for this episode. I appreciate the candid discussion, especially as it relates to isolation of the pastor and the imbalance and improper use of authority. Compassionately, it sounds like there's much pressure placed on people in these roles and definitely praying for them and remembering them as human in interactions is super important. As well, this isolation seems to be a part of what starts to feed the narrative of "exclusive," "exceptional," and "extra-special" which is a short hop to justifying sins. "Life in the fishbowl" should not be justified to excuse behaviors like favoritism, idolatry, deception, dishonesty, denial, invalidation, and a host of other actions that maintain high control of the organization. When this happens and then is protected by those around them, it harms people in the Church and harms the person doing it because they are not being held to the standard of accountability. As Jesus followers, we are to contend for the faith, to speak up when things are wrong, and to lean in in love and truth when correction is needed. Yes, in respect for the role for sure, but silence isn't the only way to show respect and when authority is misused to protect their image over taking actions consistent with following Jesus - accountability, conflict resolution, honesty - it serves no one but self. Unlike leaders who misuse their authority without regard for the wellbeing of those harmed, to the Lord, those people aren't "expendable." He cares about them. I'm glad Tim was present and able to help this church in the aftermath of the devastation left by the sins of the leaders and those protecting him for so long. Moving forward, my hope is the system has been built up to protect others from being harmed at the hands of those with the power and support the average Jesus follower in congruency between what the Word says and the actions taken. Philippians 2:3-4; James 5:16; 1 Peter 5:1-4. Thanks for a great conversation.
Thank you for watching and for sharing this Andrea. Isolation can certainly lead to unhealthy behaviors. Accountability and community are so important.
This is a timely podcast AND comment… reluctantly leaving a church of 30 years membership and trying to make sense of grief, weaknesses, hurt, leadership difficulties and disappointment (while loving God and others)
… thank you. Needed this today. HE IS so kind
Can you talk more about the disconnect between leaders & the people they Shepard ?Thank you for the insight .
Hi Laura -- quick thoughts here -- it's easy for leaders to emotionally disconnect. This comes over time from hurt. Disconnected leaders can tend to be isolated, which can lead to poor decisions. It's why we should all be praying for our pastors!
Thanks for adding to the conversation, Tim!
There can be a unhealthy divide between leaders/staff versus lay people, as if we can’t hang out and be more in community with our leaders, that is not how the early church was, or how Jesus lead, we are to be meek, generous and have hospitality and invite people in our life, And be warm and gracious with people and get to know them and invite them in our homes and have dinner and coffee with people. We are so out of touch with community, so praying for our pastors is a basic given, the question would be how can we help pastors to deal with their emotional Unhealed areas of trauma or disappointment or hurt that separates them to not have more healthy relationships with the people that they serve? How are the leaders or the pastors supporting this or not? And perhaps more attention needs to be in the beginning process of vetting a pastor. Do you not think we are a little too easy in putting almost anyone at the pulpit? Sometimes you have pastors who have such poor communication and people skills you wonder why in the world do they even want to be a pastor? Because a Pastor is a shepherd who shepherds the flock so you’re constantly with people so don’t be a pastor if you can’t do this. I remember mega pastor had said at the pulpit “I don’t like being around people“ and I thought wow, yes, he was being honest but it made me feel there’s no way I want to approach this Pastor, that left a terrible taste in my mouth and I just remembered he was really never really close with the congregation because he would preach and then leave, he wouldn’t be amongst the people to talk to or have much community he just run in his little “green room” And escape and I just don’t think that is really how pastors should be, that’s the role of a celebrity pastor 😢
I thought the conversation was good- I think the title was a bit misleading- there was only one substantive instance about abuse of power
I would maybe add one category to Henry Cloud's 3 types - wise, foolish and evil.
I would categorize 4 types in my past experience being - wise (vulnerable and authentic), broken/messy, toxic (with unresolved wounding or offense drawing similarly hurt and vulnerable ones to themselves) and then the sinister.
Good insight, thanks for sharing.
That is a great add.
This is typical at most mega churches unfortunately!
Systems are far mote interesting than individuals becayse without a system an abusive leader can’t do nearly as much damage. There were many people in leadership positions at Willow Creek who knew what was going on and did nothing. We have to understand that. I’m more interested in the 50 or 100 people that do nothing than i am in thr one person doing evil. Some of the enablers were smart, talented people who knew better.
Can someone please tell me why these 'elders' who had front row seats to this debacle, are still capable of looking for a 'pastor'? They should all have resigned, close the whole 'show' down, repent, roll in ashes, including the membership who sat under the 'authority' of a hypocrite and start from scratch. A quick reading of the OT will clearly show what the Lord did to 'idol' worshippers. When thousands of people put their trust in one 'man', it was inevitable...the whole set up would eventually fold like a house of cards, by the wind of the Holy Spirit. He cleaning house. Look how many high profile Christian 'superstars' have fallen these oassed few months, (and keep falling...exposed) !!! It will continue until His remnant church is pure and holy. Get right with Jesus, not men!
I have heard recently from a volunteer at Willow Creek that they were going to have Dr. Henry Cloud there to help them with the transition from the sex scandal that happened but that the staff canceled it, so when you Carey, brought up Henry Cloud I had thought you were going to mention that, but you didn’t probably know, I was very curious why they canceled it and they actually didn’t have anything for the congregation to help them heal with that sex scandal trauma. So when you asked this Pastor, what did they do to help the church heal, I really didn’t hear anything more concrete that they did that was helpful to address the trauma and to be fair, I don’t think the church has that specialization. They really need to resource out and we in the mental health field need to work together to help the church, but I find the church is resistant to having this help. That would be great to explore, this church staff resistance. And when this pastor said there is nothing much that could be done to help with the distrust, except to keep on doing the right things over and over yes, I can agree to that to some extent but again I didn’t hear more of what he could’ve tried to help build the bridge of healing, for example spending time with people going out with them having coffee I know it’s Covid OK do it virtually make a phone call just because it’s Covid doesn’t mean that you can’t connect with people Yes you can’t connect in person, but there are other ways to connect with people to show that you really care, and you really feel bad for what they’ve been through, having people in the mental health do workshops on trauma and healing and sexual abuse and narcissistic clergy abuse, having a support group on this to help people heal, those would all have been really helpful things, etc. I didn’t hear any of this, and I don’t think they did any of that. Sounds like more focus was on helping the staff get back into the vision and moving forward, but you haven’t helped them heal from the trauma, so that is so insensitive and doesn’t help go to the root of the problem that happened at Willow Creek. This is not just at this church. It is happening at church is all over the place. It is a travesty and a devastation the church does not know how to help it people to heal, nor will it allow outside, help to come in . No wonder people are leaving the church, It’s such a shame! The go to is “let’s just not talk about it let’s just not deal with it “as if that is going to help so since nobody’s talking about it, I guess we’re all OK. Not! God help the leaders!
Hi there -- we arrived more than 2 years after the scandal broke. There was a lot of work done by the interim leaders to help with healing. I don't know anything about a canceled engagement with Dr. Cloud. He's been a great gift to Willow over the years.
Classic results of a “cult of personality” where nobody dares to express an idea or thought that opposes the leader
Hi Carey. You failed at keeping it positive. You allowed Tim Stevens to seemingly offhandedly, viciously disparage and lie about astonishingly courageous journalist Julie Roys, claiming she "never" reached out to Willow Creek Community Church for comment or clarification. Immediately thereafter Tim spoke about Julie with SUCH a gross, arrogant, condescending attitude, suggesting that her courageous exposure of horrific abuses is not due to her courageous response to God's call on her life, but rather because "hurt people hurt people", clearly implying she's operating out of some bitterness or trauma rather than responding to God's call on her life.
Have you ever yourself reached out to Julie Roys? Did you, Carey Nieuwhof, touch bases with Julie for comment or clarification before you published Tim Stevens public disparagement of her?
Great comment! I think leaders are unfortunately afraid, intimidated, feel guilty or insecure in how to deal with any kind of church scandal so the go to is just to ignore deflect tell people that they don’t know what they’re talking about or they don’t have the information that they don’t know what’s going on, well, of course the church doesn’t know what’s going on because the leaders are hiding so much. Why are you hiding it? why aren’t you allowing the truth to be the truth so that it gets out and that people can know what’s going on so that they can be safe? Your job is to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, stop trying to protect people from TRUTH because people have their own mind, and will make their mind upon the Holy Spirit’s guidance to do what they need to with that information. Even at my old church, they hid that there was a youth pastor, who inappropriately had engagements with a young person in the ministry and this came out from a Townhall meeting when the church was falling apart due to scandal allegations, it was never really elaborated. Oh my gosh that was shocking that they wouldn’t even tell parents that that happened. the church doesn’t trust leaders and pastors because there’s so much lying & covering up, this is so upsetting because so many people from the church are so hurt and broken and the leaders are not doing a good job, the church is broken!