Hallo ! Father Anthony, I am from Eritrea but I reside in Europe, I thank God for giving you the knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. Your preaching are so touching that they inspire me to always strive hard to do the will of God. Thank you for all you do. I will share ur preaching to all I know. Please to those of who read my message by chance share the preaching. Have blessed day! 🙏
I'm a baptist who's been considering buying an icon just because I think they're beautiful and think it would help remind me to flee my temptations. Thank you for this explanation.
I was born again 2 years ago, and in these two years I’ve been upset with how the Protestant church has become married to the world. The Orthodox Church has interested me, but two BIG things convict me. One, the icons are alarming; and two, Mark. 7:7-8. Is the Orthodox Church Holy and set apart? Or secular like the Catholics… I guess I outta visit one and find out
I go to a baptist church too. What ever church takes His word seriously, I’m with. No making up human interpretations like you see In churches all over
@@ashtonlambert7673 I have the same dilemma. I feel as though “modern” denominations of Christianity are becoming worldly, but the older ones look pagan and secular to me. I mean, kissing and bowing to icons? Yeah, no thanks… I also go to a baptist church which is okay I guess, not pagan and not too worldly either, but I don’t feel like there’s a real connection with God. It feels “bland”, for the lack of a better word. Orthodox and Catholic Churches look bright and lively, but the icons and candles make them look like pagan worship places, which is unsettling to me.
@@Agua678 I think you should know more about iconography and how it was important to the early church and the other symbols and icons that was used by the early. I can understand the secular part ,but the pagan part is insulting.
@@newday7469 The problem with your statement is that God has been seen! God became material to save and sanctify the material! The Jews, some foreigners and the Apostles saw God in the flesh: Jesus the Christ! The unbelievers like the Pharisees only saw a man. Yet Christ does everything God does! Are we made in God's image? Does not God say to love the poor, the sick, the imprisoned is to love Him? Does not God say to love one another? Are we not told by God to love images then...living walking images...like you? If Christ healed the blind with just His spit, how much more His image (of the true living God) can do? Even the pagan Romans had a signet ring with the Emperor's symbol on it. What ever was imprinted with it was considered highly by the citizens. How much more meaningful is the likeness of Christ and His subjects then are to the children of God's Kingdom?
@@gamerjj777 only statues. Icons are not just images. There are strict rules how to paint icon, including spiritual. It's not just whatever artist wants to do. That's why we don't accept Roman Catholic sculptures and paintings.
@@dimazanya2568 I am not superstitious and I love to bow and kiss the image of my beloved Jesus and Holy Mary!What is creepy?It is like kissing a photo if your child or your parents!
@@someguy9571 Jews made mistake just as orthodox Christians are doing now. People believe that icons have supernatural powers, it is not about kissing per se (although it is still creepy since we do not know what Jesus looks like and there are many different icons ), it is about bowing before these images and ascribing to them what should be ascribed to one God who made heavens and earth. Now I do not know if church holds this view, but it certainly does not correct these uneducated people that are doing this.
@@katerinakaterinaki9143 I am not orthodox , but l understand what you are saying .Just love and great respect you show and l love the Orthodox Church and wish to be part of it !
Most people may not know this but OrthoDoxes and CathOlIcs have always been, are still, and will always be 1 Church as Creeds allow no belief in any "splits" in the Church. Most people may however know both the Romanists of the West and the Byzantinists and the Uniatists of the East strayed from OrthoDox CathOlIc Dogma in different ways.
This is the most excellent explanation I have heard !!! Thank you I will watch his videos .I have been trying to learn about Orthodox Christian Church .This helps me a lot .I will be subscribing .Thank you very much.
You should approach this with less enthusiasm and a colder head to avoid being misguided. Read the bible, there's nothing about worshipping Mary, the saints, the patriarchs, the rituals, etc. Is all idolatry, but because it appeals to the flesh so much, people fall for the spectacular rituals and images and forget how wrong everything is. The EO church is just little Rome, they will put a hundred obstacles between you and God so you never just believe by faith unto salvation, the real gospel.
@@JesusProtects Just believing isn't enough. Jesus said it Himself. He also said we have to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. John 6. Zwingli started that "in memory" focus. I personally want a Church that actually does the things Jesus taught instead of talking about the things. If you ever kissed your wife or mother, then you've done the same as we do when we kiss an icon. We're just surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses. It says no where in the Bible that those on the other side can't see what's happening here on earth. When Jesus said, "If you're faithful over a few things, I'll make you ruler over many," what do you think we will rule over on heaven? I believe Saints are given the responsibility to help those on earth and pray for us. If you dig into the visions of the Temple in heaven in the Bible you'll see the incense rising up which is the prayer of the Saints! The martyrs are under the alter, just as their relics are in Orthodox and Catholic churches. Also explain how protestantism accepts the filoque when that was added by Rome and caused the Great Schism? It's so sad how many of the Roman additions got into protestantism. Every mystery gets analyzed to death instead of just believing. That's why the world is in the state it's in now. If you read the homilies of John Chrysostom and maybe some St. John Cassian, you'd see what those of us converting see in it.
The worship in Orthodoxy is glorious! God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit deserves beautiful Temples and worship! ua-cam.com/video/dAZu9Wmxjs4/v-deo.html
I'm an Orthodox Christian and to be fully honest, I struggle with icon kissing and saint veneration including the Virgin Mary. I don't like to pray to the saints or the Virgin Mary. I only wish to pray to Christ. Why do we pray to Christ through the saints when we know we don't need to do this, but instead can pray to our Lord directly? I started attending liturgy recently and it doesn't feel right to me to do this..... I'm trying to understand it more..... I don't want to abandon going to liturgy, but at the same time I don't want to continue doing something that doesn't feel genuine and right to me intrinsically. I'm constantly praying about it and asking the good Lord to provide some answers on the subject... If anyone has some insight to bestow please do.....I am confused when it comes to this.
It might be the Holt Spirit convicting. I did too and left the Orthdox church and I kid u not after I left the Church I have a real relationship with God. If the Bible don’t tell us to venerate Mary just don’t. til now I read to pray to the father in the name of the son by the power of the Holy Spirit. Stick to the Bible alone not human interpretations when u can see it doesn’t line up.
@@slavi7191 I am going to assume that you are Serbian, like me? Not that it matters. So we Christians, or in this case orthodox Christians, do not pray to the icons or to the Virgin Mary. The reason why we kiss the Icons of the church is out of respect. Every icon is an image of a holy man or women who devoted their life to the eternal son of God, Jesus Christ. Think of it like this, if you would to have a picture of your son in your wallet and you would look after it and even kiss it sometimes, when things get hard, you are not kissing a piece of paper but rather what it represent - your son. So we show our respect to the Lord by respecting (in this case kissing) icons in the church of people who devoted their life to Jesus Christ. If you are a Serb like i suspect, then you know for example who Knez Lazar is and why we have icons of him in our churches and why we love him so much. With that being said, we pray to only one God and that is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I am orthodox and do not pray to Mary, even if to me she is the greatest women to have ever lived. I only pray to my God and Savior Jesus Christ.
He is wrong. He is misleading you by taking Bible verses out of context and comparing them to his own traditions that are not equal. Both the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant were specifically commanded by God Himself to be made. Icons of Mary and the saints were not commanded by God to be made at all. They are graven images.
The English words "graven image" or "idol" in translations of the Bible may represent any of several Hebrew words. The word is pesel, translated in modern Hebrew as “sculpture” indicating something carved or hewn. @@eiontactics9056
Thank you father. Your ministry has been fundamental in my conversion and as far as I know 3-4 others through subtle changes in my life and how I now live the faith. Thank you father, thank god for his grace.
@@asyamikula5757 Really?? What do u call your male parent....by his first name? Even St. Paul says to his spiritual children they have many fathers, but he is their father in Christ because he spiritually begot them (1Corinthians 4:15-17)! Christ said what He said to emphasize humility to the Jewish religious leaders, not to ban the word! Luke 1:73 Abraham is called "father"! The biblical word "Patriarch" comes from the Latin root word for 'father' (Patri)! Read with the mind of the Church to properly understand and be nourished with the Scriptures!
@@thomas7571 That's an erroneous view. Christ criticizes the Pharisees for being shallow self-centered religious leaders (Matthew 23:9). Proper context prevents erroneous context. The Bible shows many instances of use of the term: 1) "Honor your father and mother (Matthew 19:19). 2) Jesus calls Abraham "Father" (Matthew 3:9). 3) St. Stephen calls Jewish leaders "fathers" (Acts 7:2). 4) St. Paul calls Jerusalem Jews "fathers" (Acts 21:40, 22:21). 5) Abraham is called "the fathers of us all" (Romans 4:16-17). 6) St. Paul calls himself someone's spiritual "father"(1 Cor. 4:14-15, 1 Timothy 1:2,Titus 1:4). This is why we called priests "Father". 7) St. Paul calls our dads "earthly fathers" (Hebrews 12:7-9). These are just a some examples. Please notice the contexts in these and most were said AFTER Christ's statement of Matthew 23:9! There are more Scripture verses in the NT and OT showing this.
@@frankignatius2507 You are mistaken. Jesus was strictly talking about religious titles within His Church. Which, btw, is the way you are using father. You are disobeying Jesus. Call him brother instead of father. He is your brother. You only have one Father, which is in heaven. Also, when you ignorantly listed other times people called others "fathers" you are out of context. The term fathers meant almost like "ancestors". Depicting a lineage. NOT a title. Also, Paul calls himself father of Timothy. It never says that Timothy called him "Father" or that Paul was declaring a title for himself. He was merely describing the close relationship he had with Timothy. Again. Ignorantly out of Context.
So why my friend my mom was called out of jacobite church My mom being pious jacobite, used to read bibke a lot and later on she found how the church was different from the Bible itself Thays when she started to pray to jesus to reveal the truth, wether she is in the truth or not and he spoke to her and He said she is in the wrong path, she is not truly following Him So she asked how can she truly follow him and live for Him and said i want to follow you if u are the truth So late on she was filled with the holy spirit even before she was baptized not the common infant baptism And later on she moved to Bible believing church i.e, Pentecostal My father was a catholic catholic, he too was called out when he with 2 of his friends sat in last row of a convention to listen to the music, the preacher in the middle stood on the stage and pointing at 3 men in the last row, " jesus is calling you for his ministry, to preach the gospel are u ready to give your life to jesus " They are from kerala, they came here to karnataka after baptizing to preach Gospel with just 2 suitcases, one full of clothes and the other with some books Brother, i guess u need to study the bible again and ask jesus to reveal wether u truly believe in him, and wether your journey wil take to him in the end, and u must comfirm by his words rather than what the church teaches you or what u might think is true May God Bless you By the way, i am also a malayallee , ma parents from adimali and iddukki
We are not God to create icons and worship them we are created beings we are human beings and we can only do one thing and worship the father in the spirit and in truth.
Do you not realize that all Christian denominations do proclaim that they worship God in spirit and truth? Or do you think this verse is only found in your Bible?
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers If the church proclaim that they worship the father in spirit and in truth does that mean that they do, the holy father is a spirit and we need to close the door and pray to our father who is unseen and Jesus taught us this in Matthew unless you don't believe the Bible and Jesus clearly tells us that we worship only the father through him and in spirit, you can't make something that resemble God the father, in the old testament YAHWEH said all idols and graven images are nothing I will not give glory to another and I know that if Jesus came today he would have destroyed every idol inside your churches and told you to repent and that's what I'm trying to tell you brother, repent and believe in God the father and the lord Jesus and you need to do the 2 most important commandments and are : 1-love the lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 2-love your neighbor as yourself. That's it the church can't change the word of christ but christ can change the church.
Please forgive me. I don’t mean to be rude. But I would ask you, if you deem it wise, that you would start looking into different interpretations from what you are being fed. After reading your answer, iconography is the least of my worries. May God be with you in your research. You can reach out anytime if you have an honest question. God bless
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers all you need to see is what the orthodox church did in Russia. Most so called christians don’t know or believe anything. But they do trust that the ikons if various saints they bought in a church shop have magic powers. Witches also like to use ikons in their practices. Superstition reigns instead of faith. Christ is completely obscured by Mary and the saints. All this pageantry is completely misleading from Christ the Savior.
Thank you father. I often receive hate statements from my Muslim friends that we Christians pray to idols and this video explain everything!!! I’ll direct them to watch this video because they have not studied Gospel they don’t know the exact answer!! Keep up with Great work!!!
I would tell anybody who is doubting the validity of using icons to read Saint John of Damascus' treatise "In defense of icons", It is a work in which he defended the use of icons against the iconoclasts. I'm aware that he is not Coptic, but it's still a good read.
Ikons are not essential for salvation and shouldn’t be viewed as supernatural objects of worship and adoration as is the case in the Russian Orthodox Church.
@@synthesaurus Literally nobody says they are "essential for salvation". Stop making stuff up. And yes they are worthy of adoration, not worship. You know there is a difference.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God. (Ex 20:4,5) The church can talk around this all they want, but the scripture couldn't be more clear. If icons were a valid part of Christendom, then why are there no examples of it anywhere in the scriptures accept as sin?
@@rl4u144 protestant spotted. What came first, scripture or the church? Exactly... Scripture is fully compatible with the church, just not with protestant heresy
Just a friendly question, not trying to start a debate but... Deuteronomy 4:15-15 Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. Nkjv Now this is saying God forbade it because he didn't even want them trying to make an image of Him. How come the Israelites didn't make icons of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, or Moses, or Elijah for the purpose of veneration and prayers? The tabernacle or temple consisted of plam trees, flowers and nameless cherubim caved into the walls, of which there is no indication that the Israelites venerated them. As a matter of fact when Israel started to bow down before the bronze serpent then Gods anger aroused. So im not sure how these justifies it. 2 kings 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. nkjv Plus God commanded the building of the bronze serpent and ark of the covenant. As a matter of fact concerning the ark of covenant the area of worship or veneration wasn't the cherubin but what the two cherubim where pointing to...what was it? Come on...it was the mercy seat. And what image was in the mercy seat? NOTHING...it was empty. The presence of the invisible God filled the empty spot in between the two cherubim. To me this fulfills Jesus words of matthew 15, and mark 7 about traditions of men that violate the commandment of God. The commandment is not rocket science. Why risk it? The bible warns of idolatry more times then any other sin, and constantly mocks the making of images fir worship.
Thank you, Mark, for your comment. And there is not much to disagree on with what it is that you are saying - especially concerning the fact that in your references the people make the mistake of turning their prayers to those carved images rather than to God Almighty. And so we agree, any sort of worship directed to anything but God is idolatry. However, you make an important statement "The presence of the invisible God filled the empty spot in between the two cherubim" - and this was the case until the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now we have God in the flesh, manifested visibly for all the world to behold. This changes things! We are no longer making statues of serpents, or birds or cattle like the Israelites did in the wilderness, we are honouring Him who became like us in every aspect of humanity except for sin alone. John of Damascus says it best: "In former times, God, who is without form or body, could never be depicted. But now when God is seen in the flesh conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see."
As for the comment concerning the people of Israel not depicting their forefathers in imagery, we actually have evidence that they did! Please look up Dura-Europos synagogue, it gives some insighton the subject. God bless
+ mark Anderson i understand what the priest is saying but you can't get around what God says in the Bible, to the Priest , maybe God had made the tabernacle the way he wanted to his liking at that time for it's purpose and that was the only one to be made like it. also if God wanted us to make churches with icons or statues in it he would have told us to . nobody can keep the law and we thank God for Jesus Christ. it's just my opinion it feels that building this it tries to take away from God
@@cvetkojovcevski645 You are certainly misled by the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Bible does NOT include everything what Christians shall do. You can refer to two other video of the author. ua-cam.com/video/4z95mUdimmo/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/kQG8u-CBgxs/v-deo.html
I was uncertain about the use of icons of God and saints in the Ethiopian Orthodox church until I watched this video. Thank you so much, God bless you!
Are you an Arab father.. I am Sang Ngabou and I live in the Gambia, West Africa. I love orthodox church and I want to be a father or monk but I do not know whether the Lord would be please with that. Pray for me okay. God bless you.
God bless you dear friend, and of course, if you really want to be a priest or a monk then you should go to an orthodox church near you and the fathers in their will explain everything to you.
@@ecgmissionoutreachs843 You are the church brother. God created you where ever you and other Christians are is as good as any church. I genuinely pray that you get a church in Gambia soon.
Watching people spending long time by the icons of the saint and bring “lucky charms” to them does give you an impression of something verging on worship
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers Gazing at photos of your dead relative is not a very good comparison. You don’t ask them to do “favors” for you and people do not do pilgrimage to these picture. Also, what about the “accidental” icons which end up attracting worshipers for miracles? One such apparition turned out to be a urine stain :(
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matt 23:9) Jesus was literally talking about religious titles. By calling him "Father", you are directly disobeying Jesus. He is your brother, not your father.
@@eiontactics9056 1 Corinthians 4:15 15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
@@Ajjajajss Paul is not talking about a Title to be called. Like "Holy Father" or "Father Paul". He was merely describing a relationship, not a religions title (which Jesus rebuked).
Would be curious to know what you think of digital icons and how we should treat them. Been looking for answers all over for can we draw them on iPads, can they be deleted?, etc..
I'm orthodox and I find kissing and bowing before icons of saints a bit odd. I understand doing so with Jesus and Mary (the mother of God) but with saints it doesn't feel right :/ Can anyone explain?
In my culture and many cultures that have been followed for decades I saw, as a sign of respect, and love we bow and kiss our parents hands or people who are higher than us ,and those saints are our fathers that died and suffered for the sake of God and they are the one who teached us how to worship God right, we kiss and bow to them because they are higher than us in action,and love to God they have, we are nothing close to them so we respect them , and that how we show respect nothing more , we worship only ONE God. There is probably more to that answer , hopefully Abuja answers it but I answered it behalf of my knowledge. God bless🙏🏽☦️
@@secrethuman581 its exactly that. Bowing and kissing is a eastern practice to show respect and venerate someone. As we can see in 1 Chronicles 29:20. There the people bow down to god AND the king. The western world is unfamiliar with that practice and for them this looks like worship which isnt. Even muslims kiss the hand of their fathers out of respect. So do they worship their fathers as pagan gods too?
I was baptized as an Orthodox Christian last year at a Coptic Orthodox church. I have a question. Some of these Orthodox Christians called me a miaphysite and heretic because I told them that the Coptics are Orthodox. Do you have any scholarly writings shutting these idiots down please? They are really making me irritated and I step out of character by telling them off.
There are many scriptures that explain the teaching of miaphysite and related issues.... Pope Shenouda III have a book called "The Nature of Christ" which fully focused on when does this term "miaphsite" is coined, who were the inventor of heretic about the nature of Christ and what is exactly the teaching of oriental orthodox on Nature of Christ. You can find it www.stminahamilton.ca/groups/servants/pope-shenouda-iii-books
@Markos pantopolos Thank you. I'm new to this and I allowed their rudeness to really push me out of character. This Clown Jay Dyer and his Facebook group Traditional Metaphysics kicked ne out for defense of the Coptics. I was baptized last November by a Coptic Orthodox church in New Jersey. I have no regrets. Yes I would like that. I'm still learning.
The thing is in the ancient near east they believed the idols were literally the incarnation of their gods. Like they'd take the idol to meet other idols and say "so and so has to go meet so and so"
Mo Siba Thanks for this Abouna, at least we can say definitively that WE ARE NOT WORSHIPPING THESE ICONS OR ANY GRAVEN IMAGES in case anyone asks. But how should we understand this verse from the New Testament? Acts 17:29-30 29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. We all know how savvy our kids are these days. How would we respond if they asked us why we didn’t obey God in this? Would we be able to insist that God’s Word is the ultimate authority if we didn’t obey all of it?
Thank you for your comment Mary. That verse actually makes the point perfectly: the Divine Nature of God is not like gold or silver - it is not created! We worship a God that is Creator - the great 'I AM'. St Paul here in this passage that you quote is dealing with a Hellenic Community that worshiped statues and images of man-made gods where they believed that the gods actually dwelt in them and in their temples... And so St Paul calls them to repent. In Orthodoxy however, icons are never seen as objects that are worshiped - as if they are in and of themselves divine. Rather they are tools that are utilized within the Orthodox expression of worship of the One True God.
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers But why does God actually say to Moses: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above. YOU SHALL NOT MAKE...YOU SHALL NOT MAKE...YOU SHALL NOT MAKE...? Why is the Lord God Almighty telling Moses not to make them in the first place? He is not saying, "You may make, but you shall not worship nor bow down..." He is saying, YOU SHALL NOT MAKE. Surely this lets us use other parts of God's law according to the culture and society we live in. For example, a man may leave his father and mother and marry another man, because they both love each other. And God says not to judge. And God is love. Do you see how perverted the Word of God can become if we pick and choose what we will obey, and use it to suit what we think is right?
@@marymeawad9532 Galatians chapter 3 might provide some understanding. Living by The Law is not something the Church is required to do. The Law was given to the Hebrews to guide and try them. The New Testament was written by The Church that The Christ founded and The Apostles spread, so they are certain to be the best at interpreting their own writings, which were written by Apostles who grew up with the Hebrew scriptures and Law. The Church doesn't have to pick and choose anything from The Law to live by, only point to for understanding and correction of how to live by faith instead of condemning themselves by taking on possible curses for failing to live by the Law. I hope this response is helpful in lifting up, never harmful.
@@marymeawad9532 Why Protestantism has so msny churches with so many diffetences between them?On the other hand Orthodox Churches based in ine and only truth and have the same liturgues for 2000 years in every country that are!Ask God ,He is the only one to tell you the truth!Don't listen to Heresies!Luther King,Calvin, Mohammad and others were just humans to believe them !We also don't believe in the unmistakable if the catholic popes because Jesus was only unmistakable and that is how the schism between Orthodox and Catholic Church happened!
Well done. You've explained this very well and thoroughly... Unfortunately, even with a perfect explanation and providing evidence from the Bible, some will continue to be deceived or brainwashed into the heresy of Puritanism.
I really like, appreciate and respect the Orthodox church ☦ , I learned alot from it and admire how christ like many of its members are but what really turns me away is the Iconography and how similar it is to eastern religions and the way Mary is presented with baby Jesus in the iconography really reminds me of how the pagans worshipped Tammuz and Semiramis...and that is my main turnaround point
Hello dear one, Perhaps something like this video may be able to get you deeper into the icon and to see a little of what is happening in Orthodox Iconography, ua-cam.com/video/bsbbn_nKUKQ/v-deo.html
This may seem like that to you, but is it like that to the Church that for 2,000 years read about the golden calf and how it was destroyed? Instead of seeing paganism in an icon of the Holy Mother and Christ Child, how about seeing 3,000 years of anticipation (promise of the Messiah) and hopes fulfilled (the Incarnation) in holy art?
Very nice video. This is an issue I've been wrestling with over the past year and while I of course agree in principle, I struggle more so in practicality. It would be unfair to say that no one, particularly lay people, fall into iconolatry. While yes, color is just as much a fair expression of worship as letters and speech, none of them are satisfactory in describing or representing God. I don't think John Calvin was entirely incorrect in saying that God can only be found within in the absence of all other representation. At the same time I cannot deny the feeling you get stepping into an Orthodox church, particularly in that you feel like you are worshipping with the saints who came before. I guess I still don't know for sure, but I think that a balance is probably the best answer
@@katerinakaterinaki9143 I agree, ask God. But that seems like a weak principle to base your truth off of - the number of churches. Furthermore, isn't it against Orthodoxy to ask God and find your own truth about Him? Should I not just ask the church? Thank you for your kind response
@@daltonsteede6482 If you pray to God sincerely he will lead you to the truth. Like Cornelius in the book of acts God listened to his prayers and led him Peter. After God leads you to hus true Church then you listen to them.
The problem is that there are no examples in the New Testament where the early church uses or makes icons. The book of Acts and the Epistles lay out in great detail, how the church should conduct itself, proper doctrine and worship and never mentions images of deceased Saints. In fact, the only times in the bible where this type of imagery IS mentioned in scripture, it's mentioned as something sinful. This video doesn't make a good case for icons, because it's only based in tradition and not the word of God.
I love icons but I’m just wondering, isn’t there a distinction between the way we interact with icons in comparison with the OT decorating of the tabernacle and ark of the covenant? I mean, isn’t there more of a temptation to worship icons in the way that we use them? I for one know that many poorly catechized/well meaning Catholics here in Spain fall into this. Especially in the particular Marian devotions.
Marian devotion, is way worse than simply devotion. If you put before them a rock and say this is Mary, they will bow down to that piece of rock. The same goes for statues of Jesuses and crosses, Catholics will gladly bow down to all kinds of statues. Scriptures are very clear, from the moment that someone bows down to a piece of wood or metal, he or she commits idolatry. As Isaiah pointed out, a piece of wood would make some good when burned instead of being bowed down to ( Isaiah ch. 44).
*I'm an eastern catholic, and I see many easterners and orthodox bowing to an image of Jesus yet ignoring His true divine presence in the tabernacle (the Eucharest.) The Lord is not happy about this and will correct this very soon.*
God will correct every fault in every church.Im a Seventh-day Adventist and they teach about this bowing before images.Although I have my disbelief in some of the teachings in the Seventh-day Adventist church.Im looking for a good church to attend but I find it hard to find a church that follows the bible.I was also looking in the direction of orthodox christain but I find it hard bowing before a icon.But I definitely don't want to attend a Seventh-day Adventist anymore.
@@jenelleg9848 I've heard Calvary chapels are really good, although right now I'm not attending church because of COVID. You may have a Calvary Chapel in your area.
I have to ask if the Cherubim were bowed down to, kissed, prayed to, used in worship services, had miracles attributed to them etc. and were copies of them carried by the people on their person or installed in their dwelling places?
The word "worship" them is not correct. Orthodox are not worshipping the icon, but what they represent (and only in the case of Jesuschrist's icons) Westerns see bow down and kiss as a sign of worship, but in the Middle East (where Christianism cames from, not Rome, France, Britain, etc.) kissing and bowing down is a sign of respect. Orthodoxs worship God, venerate/respect/honor the Saints and Holy Theotokos. If you see a person kissing and bowing down to an icon, you might think they are worshipping it, as one can't known the intentionts on men, only God knows what are in our hearts. Sorry if cant explain myself better, english its not my first language.
@@pabloalvarez7510 so kissing a picture of my mother is like kissing my mother? No... besides it's written in the commandments that we should not bow down to images.
@@alexanderstauber As i said, bowing and kissing an icon its a sign of respect to the person it represents, not the wood and paint of the object. You love your mother and kiss her picture, you are not loving the picture itself, just the memory of her. Its simple, Im sorry if im nof clear enough. Blessings.
@@pabloalvarez7510 well people also didn't pray to the Greek god statues but to the Greek Gods still they used those statues as representations of those Gods. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God It's clear
@@alexanderstauber Yes, but those gods are pagan, even if Greeks didnt pray to statues, its still paganism and there is no comparison there. I was answering your first question regarding bowing down to icons, and I answered its a custom in the east to pray respects as it, its not worshipping. As for your statement about the Second Commandement, i think its pretty clear in the video, as you also say you understand what Father Mourad explained, so i dont get your question.
The strongest argument for icons is this: Historically, the oriental Orthodox split from the rest of the east with the council of Chalcedon in 451. Here we are over 1500 years later, and the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches have the exact same arguments and practices when it comes to icons.
Regarding the veneration of icons to be deep in history necessitates being Protestant, is to cease to be Roman Catholic or to cease to be Eastern Orthodox. - Dr. Gavin Ortlund
@secrethuman581 He means that there are variations between the images, some have longer beards, and some longer hair. But I myself don't see the issue.
It’s simple when you see an icon remember it’s not like the pagans where they believe that there god is the statue unlike us we have an understanding that they are just the images they’re not Jesus the Saints or God in actuality. They’re Simply references
I doubt there an image of God in the world simply because there no person ever rendered his likeness in stone or on paper. Surprising really when so many have apparently seen Him. But then perhaps it was more the eyes of imagination that saw His face rather than fact.
God bless you Abuna!! but next time i sincerely advice you to put God in a capital "G" because there are many false gods that the Bible mentioned.. i mean other than The True God we know, Which is "The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" thank you and God bless you! it really helpful. i actually needed this so i can explain to some people who are confused about with our Holy Icons.
Do we know that early Christian churches specifically used images for devotion and facilitating worship rather than decoration and teaching purposes? Origin cites Celsus (Contra Celsus, Book VII - 2nd century) as comparing Christians to Jews Scythians, the Nomadic Libyans, the godless Seres, and the Persians, in not having images in their worship. In fact, Celsus calls Christians atheists because of this. How are we supposed to reconcile this with the idea that the ancient church used icons in devotion and to worship Christ?
How can you make excuses for idolatry?? There is no example in the New Testament where the early church uses or makes icons. The book of Acts and the Epistles lay out in great detail, how the church should conduct itself, proper doctrine and worship and never mentions images of deceased Saints. In fact, the only times in the bible where this type of imagery IS mentioned in scripture, it's mentioned as something sinful. I respect everyone's faith, but you should at least own up to the fact that this is a violation of Exodus 20.
1. The second commandment (Ex. 20:4ff) explicitly describes what is prohibited: making an image and bowing to it. Doing that very thing but claiming the images are not really idols but "icons" and the bowing isn't really worship but "veneration" is not convincing. 2. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, “Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration.” This is the accurate translation. 3. Origen(184-254) responded to Celsus by admitting that Christians used no images; he mocked the notion that images were helpful in worship, and, citing the Second Commandment wrote, “It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they [Christians] not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God.” (Origin, Contra Celsus, Book VII, Chapter 64.) 4. Eusebius (c. AD 263 - 339) wrote that even the incarnate Christ cannot appear in an image, for "the flesh which He put on for our sake … was mingled with the glory of His divinity so that the mortal part was swallowed up by Life. . . . This was the splendor that Christ revealed in the transfiguration and which cannot be captured in human art. To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error." 5. Epiphanius (inter 310-320 - 403): "I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person." He goes on to tell John that such images are “contrary to our religion” and to instruct the presbyter of the church that such images are “an occasion of offense.” (Epiphanius, Letter 51, chapter 9).
We often forget that it is not the action that counts but the meaning behind the action. Often people automatically associate bowing down with worship. It is the intention when it comes to God, but it isn’t when it comes to icon. Would you judge a human being bowing to another as a sign of worship or respect? Would you characterize the human being who is bowing down as respectful or heretic because he broke the second commandment. If you choose the former, you are right. If you choose the latter, remember that the spirit gives life and the letter kills.
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers But God literally told them not to bow down before images. Acts 10 "As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
Of course you're going to say that! 🙄 So is there pictures of Jesus while He was here during His incarnation that you claim that the images portray Him that are in the orthodox churches... please stop!!!
Laudetur Jesus Christus Hi, Vietnamese Traditionalist Catholic here. This is a great video, Father But I have a question. In the comments section, you mentioned saint John of Damascus. But according to Wikipedia, saint John is not a saint in the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Is that true? Thank you, God bless you and the Coptic Orthodox Church. I hope someday we (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian) can reunite our sister churches ✝️❤️☦️
Hello, Thank you for the question! You are totally right that St. John of Damascus is a post-chalcedonian figure and was not therefore a part of the discourse of the Oriental Orthodox. However, in terms of the exposition of icons, he is a figure to be greatly revered. Because iconoclasm did not affect the Oriental Orthodox in the same capacity, there was not a reason to elaborate the belief in the veneration of icons as there was in the Chalcedonian communion. Just being in a different epoch or region does not somehow invalidate the rich and deeply striking writings of St. John of Damascus, however. For this reason he is an important figure to know and to discuss when it comes to the veneration of icons and the greater question of our relationship to the material world and the Orthodox insistence against manichean dualism. God bless you!
Coptic Orthodox Answers Thank you, God bless you too Father, please pray for us the Vietnamese Catholics. We have been persecuted by the communist regime since 1975 (Fall of South Viet Nam).
@@trubangTrang God bless you! May your witness to His sufferings be a sign for us all and may He continue to strengthen you in conforming yourself to the image of His Son.
But isn't that Commandment issuing TWO interdictions? "Don't make images meant to represent other things" "Don't worship the above" Also, since the same word is used, would that make Man a graven image himself?
Yes. They are idols. Every world religion has them and reasons why. It doesn't matter if you are worshipping an image or not. It Says "not to CREATE" or "CARVE" a graven image.
@@maryh2237 don't get me wrong. There Is alot to admire about orthodox Christianity. But the origins of Christianity and its many mistakes are still present.
Who actually worships created things? My wife is Buddhist and prostrates before manifestations of the Buddha every New Year. She is not worshipping a statue but rather using the statue to contemplate about the one it represents. I imagine even those bowing down to statues in the Old Testament surely were not worshipping statues. They were worshipping God as they understand God (different name and back story)
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” - Matthew 22:32 The St Mary is not dead, she is in heaven.
It's called, iconography because it's scripture, "graphw" means write, Most people couldn't read the Bible 100 years ago, yet alone 2000 years back Image description of the Bible,the life of the apostles and the saints/martyrs that came later can be understood by toddlers
I guess it depends on where the church is located and its traditions. In ex soviet countries, orthodox people are literally bowing down to statues and pictures. That is idolatry, not just a mere ' reading' of a ' writing '.
You didn't address the worship piece. Sure, God may allow us to create beautiful artistic imagery but that isn't at question. My question is this, is directing prayer to, bowing down to, and kissing saint icons a form of worship? It certainly looks exactly like worship being directed at a person that isn't God. We are called to worship and pray to God and no one else.
Hello Dear Bryan, It is because God has entered into matter, we can encounter Him through matter. We can use the matter to elevate our minds and our thoughts to God. It is also an affirmation of our being both material body and soul that means that we must make our way to God both by contemplation but also through the material means which elevate us to Him. St. John of Damascus says beautifully, "Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul. I honour all matter besides, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to me. Was not the thrice happy and thrice blessed wood of the Cross matter? Was not the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Sepulchre, the source of our resurrection: was it not matter? Is not the most holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the blessed table matter which gives us the Bread of Life? Are not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either do away with the veneration and worship due to all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the worship of images, honouring God and His friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit. Do not despise matter, for it is not despicable Nothing is [despicable] which God has made. That is the Manichean heresy." St. John of Damascus, On the Holy Images. For more modern sources about this topic, we highly recommend the materials of Fr. Stephen Freeman whose academic work was on Icons. Here are some great pieces; - blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2019/03/20/when-icons-became-windows/ - blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2019/11/18/venerating-icons-its-so-much-other-than-you-think/ God bless your search for Him and your desire for Truth.
Even catholics and other orthodix light candles to the idols whoch is imdeed an act if worship to the idol But i understand that when u pray to those idols u think of jesus or mary etc But still i don't know The truth is even the apostles never practiced these things Until Constantine made christianity look like any other religion looked like With tradition, festivals, idols, icons etc Because when he commanded every people to accept christianity they complained of not having look like true religion because they had Rituals and traditions, celebrations and idols and icons etc
@@santigikargbo3415 can i ask a question Jesus said im with u always, i live in you Why should u need a mans image portrayed or played as jesus for Him to be with you When he is already inside u, u dont need to look at a photo and pray to it, u can pray to then God who is living inside you Will u make image of a dead one to remember them or pray to them, dead ones don't need prayers though U just remember them, u just bring back all those memories and that lives inside u that how u remember a dead person Say u loved ur grandmother a lot and meant lot But u dont have any photo of her Will u just remember all those memories with her and just wish she was woth u Or u will get another woman of the same age and try to see ur grandmother in that image No one can't do such a thing What catholics nd other sects doing is When jesus said im with u, i live inside you But u are making graven images of another man who are artists or actors and pray to them beliving they are jesus How many photos and images do one has in churches different kinds of jesus Blonde etc But the truth is, jesus was never a blonde So how can u justify this ???
ccreativ Ghost personally i can say yes Jesus is inside of us. but i never said the image means he’s legit with us. i use it to refocus if anytime i get off track. but yea that’s it for me considering im young child 🥱
the calf was a symbol of virility and strength associated with the Canaanite god El. It was never about the one true god, and that is why god shunned its worship. I'm still on the fence about icons myself though.
I still stumble at the kissing, and bowing down to the icons. I understand that the image is like looking at a photograph of a beloved family member, but the bowing and kissing seems a step too far in the 'veneration'. Just my personal conviction. No offense intended.
It is a no-no. “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,” Colossians 2:18 KJV
This explanation is based on assumption. The specific direction for the tabernacle does not open the door to allow artistry in the creation of icons and idols. God wrote the law. If you choose to understand it differently, it’s on you. The whole worship around “Tamata” is false idol that icons have allowed.
Are you kidding me, you are trying to teach us a false teaching. God wants you to worship Him in Spirit, not with false images made buy sinners hand. I got one question for you, why do we need those images? Even if it was not bad, why do we need them. The bible says we just need Jesus to pray in His name to God, so you agree with me, we don't need them, than you should not have it or use it in any way. Psalms 115:4-5 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
@Λούκα There was a difference between the time when Joshua was on the earth and the time we live in now. In Josua's time, the LORD dwelled between the Cherubims above the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant. So if Joshua was bowing to the ark, he was bowing to the presence of God. God gave the commandments then to not make images, nor bow down to images ( De 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,) So, for someone to make any kind of image now and bow down to it, it is idolatry. Paul writes to the church in Galatia, Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. He also writes to the church at Corinth, 1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. The reality of idolatry is more than just respecting a soldier for their service to their country. Idolatry is putting anything above the Lord and worshipping that. Even if the early church could not read, that would not give them the right to worship idols! God used preaching, not idols ( 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.) Also, the pattern for the tabernacle were given by God and the men who did the work were given their ability to create the tabernacle directly by God ( Ex 36:1 Then wrought Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whom the LORD put wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the LORD had commanded.) There is no tabernacle now that God honors, other than the born again Christian. Now God dwells in a saved person, but no person is to be worshipped by any other man. 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. The Holy Spirit lives in a born again Christian and helps us to worship Jesus Christ only. (Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:) (Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.) no idol or image needed. Now that the Holy Spirit is here in a believer of the gospel. There is no need to worship an idol because we now have a direct relationship with Jesus Christ and can pray directly to him. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
@Λούκα 2 timo 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I hope you will pray and ask God, could it be that you are wrong? And my sir, when did you become a christian and how?
Good argument, Fr. But if i am to err on the side of caution (not saying the orthodox interpretation is wrong, but just to be extra careful), I wouldn't have images of any sort....just in case.
@@wanrazul The concept is still there: we respect a piece of cloth or the meaning behind the flag? Are we respecting a piece of metal on the roads or respect the traffic laws? The signet ring of Caesar and its wearer were greatly respected. How much more honorable are the imprints of the Cross, or of Christ and His subjects to a citizen of the Kingdom of God? The ancient Hebrews left a polytheistic country called Egypt. The golden calf was a representation of the false Egyptian god Serapis! It wasn't a bull that liberated the Hebrews! It was the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses Who did! Context protects you from a false pretext.
You forget to mention that the Lord came to fall fill the law not to abolish it, which means the Ten Commandments are for all Jews and gentiles. Otherwise if the Ten Commandments were only for the Jews that means it’s ok for us to commit murder,adultery etc. I’m amazed that you yourself as a supposed spiritual leader twist the scriptures to suit your theology. Our very basis of following Christ is from the Ten Commandments that’s how we know we have sined and fallen short of the glory of god and need salvation through Christ our lord and saviour. Your theology is wrong and I pray god opens your eyes my brother and before you say I don’t understand the orthodox church, I do I was raised in it and I have found that the Orthodox Church twist the word of god to suit its theology and customs instead of taking the word of god literally. May god bless you!
You seem like a evangelical cultist who twist the scriptures and other peoples words..Where did he say to discard the 10 commandments..?? don't twist other people's words to suit your perverted agenda..Why did God told to make the Cherubim on the ark of the covenant? Wasn't that a icon ?
@@alangervasis 1. I’m not a cultist! It’s funny how people like you assume because someone follows biblical scripture and not traditions is in some sought of cult, it’s laughable. 2. I didn’t twist anything! He said the law was only given to the Jews which by his own interpretation wasn’t given to the gentiles of today, that’s false. Because like I said the scripture says Jesus came to fulfil the law not abolish the law. What’s the law the Ten Commandments! 3. The cherubim are not icons they are the cherubim that sit on either side of god and worship him day and night in heaven as the scriptures say. So he told Moses to build the ark of the covenant according to the exact representation in heaven. So no the ark of the covenant is not an idol it’s the exact representation of god given to Moses. Please educate yourself with scripture before you try to ridicule a fellow Christian. May God bless you!
Being raised in Church doesn't mean u understand the Ortodohxy right lol, if u didn't follow it wz ur heart just bc ur body was in the church doesn't mean u understood the whole meaning of Ortodohxy , because ur soul was somewhere else, if u got questions and u want it to be Clearfield , u should ask in respectfully way ,or else who are u to tell abuna to open his eyes lol? Y'all ppl who leave Ortodohxy forgetting how to humble urself acting like y'all know the whole Bible. And also we ortodohx don't twist nun , God words aren't simple words to understand them literally , God talks in example,mathphor and on . And again if u have questions as them RESPECTFULLY and don't assume your right immediately. God bless and may YOUR eyes will be open and realize Ortodohxy is the original and real Christianity.🙏🏽☦️
Ive enjoyed your explanation of the icons which is very clear. as we have ET living in other planets which is very well documented across the world. my question to you, if you can please explain why is it not mention in the bible of any such other race as it seems we are the only race that the bible explains. are we really alone in this galaxy or has God made other life forms and if so why isnt it mentioned in the bible. also why is the vactican holding our book of our true existence?
There is no amount of apologetics that can justify this. If it looks like idolatry, walks like idolatry, talks like idolatry, acts like idolatry, it must not be idolatry?
Jesus is the love of my life, and no icon or image of Him can satisfy my deep longing for Him. These icons or images are not connected to my beloved Jesus. If you want to see Jesus, ask Him to reveal Himself to you-it’s far more meaningful. This is how we Pentecostals view it. We don’t rely on any image claimed to represent Jesus to shape our perception; He is in me, and I am in Him.
no we are not worshiping the Catholism not worshiping the image remember when God commands makes a tabernacle with 2angels and look the solomon house etc
I don't know much about Orthodox church I am from a non denomination church I know the Bible well as I have read it every day for over 10 years and still learning. In my tradition it is known that we pray to God alown it dose say in Hebrews I believe that Jesus is interceding for us everyday he lives to intercede for us. I don't find anywhere in the Bible that talks about praying to others other than the trinitarian god can you help me by telling me where that idea come from I've heard it comes from the Apocrypha books is there a specific book in the Apocrypha that talks about praying to Saints? I do not believe that that is what God wants us to do which is why so many Traditions do not do that but I am interested in knowing why you do seem to think it is okay to pray to Saints ask for weather God approves of using pictures to help us worship God or and or pray to Saints I also still don't find that in the scriptures the Ark of the Covenant Yaz a picture of symbolism for sure and the temple for sure has symbolism like the cherubim also the bronze snake that Moses held up in the. I think the main concern to me is the praying to Saints I am don't see there to be good evidence from God's word to us promoting that idea anywhere in the scriptures
@@joshuahardman396 You do what you gotta do my friend, we don't elevate saints to the same level as God, we know where God belong in the hierarchy, its just nice to know that people in heaven, closer to God, can be there for us, with us, in all of our troubled life. God bless,
I see much symbolism in the bible. Not icons and imagery, i think it is excessive. Evelating Mary to be on par with God or Jesus? Salvation through works? Praying to saints, thats blasphemy..
@@synthesaurus it is clearly worship. They bow down to them, kiss them and pray to them thinking they have some special powers. They literally place those graven images and what they represent inbetween them and Christ. It is idolatry.
He is trying to turn and make anything out for him to justify himself that worshiping icons and images are ok for new testament believers it just not right to make something with human hands and make it sacred🤦♂️ wake up people Jesus never taught us this nor the desciple taught us this and never ever will anyone speech and say that worshiping idols are right but one do you know who the Antichrist yeah and the Antichrist will make a likeness to himself and he will make everyone worship his likeness so don't do like him worship the father only in the spirit and in truth. Jesus is lord amen
How do you know that your 16th century reading is not the one that is wrong? It amazes me how people comment without any kind of research assuming their position is right. Instead of quoting me bible verses that we all know and heard over and over again, I would suggest looking a bit at church history. Not only regarding this subject but many others. You may be surprised. Remember Protestantism started in the 16th century.
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers brother I'm not a protestant, but I'm gonna tell you that I am a Jesus's witness who is a Christian, I'm not obligated to be a protestant if I'm an evangelist, I can be an evangelist without being a protestant but the problem I'm telling you is that Mary is the mother of Jesus and that's it and Jesus said with his own words I'm the way the truth and the life(no one) comes to the father but by me, either you are telling me that Jesus is a liar because you teach in your catholic and orthodox churches that we can pray in the name of Mary, or you are doing against what our lord said and you are teaching people to do what you think is right and you do not stand on the word of God and secondly which means that you are corrupt , I personaly don't believe your doctrine of the Trinity, I believe that we have only one God YAHWEH and one mediator between God and men (the man) christ Jesus which is in the bible I'm not creating doctrines and teaching people to obey me, I'm reading the Bible in it's context and trying to find the real truth, and the final point I wanna make is that the first christians were not (orthodox) 😂😂, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, they were (evangelistic) and you can see it in the bible so I think you need a lesson in history my brother but you can read the bible hand to heart and then ask yourself is the church telling the truth or are they creating what they think is the truth.
Please forgive me. I don’t mean to be rude. But I would ask you, if you deem it wise, that you would start looking into different interpretations from what you are being fed. After reading your answer, iconography is the least of my worries. May God be with you in your research. You can reach out anytime if you have an honest question. God bless
@Srbin Srbinovic Absolutely! There are a number of rich and beautiful sources. 1. One excellent series is the texts of Jaroslav Pelikan called "The Christian Tradition" which cover the full breadth of Christian history in 5 volumes and they are great reads. 2. A fantastic one stop shop with regards to early history is the welcome book by Fr. John Anthony Mcguckin, "The Path of Christianity: The First Thousand Years". This text is organized chronologically and then by themes. Fr. John is a foremost scholar and also includes primary source texts of the fathers in very easy to read translations so you can sick your teeth into the time itself. 3. The best source from an Oriental Orthodox would be Aziz Atiya's History of Eastern Christianity. May God bless you in your search for Him
The idols of the nations are in the flag and the flag is high and lifted up on a flag pole, and those who are serving the flag are serving idols. The nations made images of the stars of heaven, of the moon, of the sun, of birds and four footed beasts, in the likeness of heaven above, or in the likeness of the earth below, and set the images in the flag, to serve them. The nations idols of wood and stone, were replaced with idols of fabric. Idolatry is through the pledge of allegiance to the flag and anthem. When the king of babylon the great played the anthem at the sound of music the babylonians bowed down to the ground and worshipped the image of the golden statue of the earth. When the US plays the anthem at the sound of music the US stand on their feet and worshipped the image of the star spangled of heaven with a song. The god of the US is the image of the star spangled of heaven, and the image of the bald eagle of the earth. The god of Japan is the image of the sun of heaven. The god of Israel is the image of the star remphan of heaven Acts 7:43 The god of Canada is the image of the leaf of the maple tree of the earth. The god of Mexico is the image of the eagle and serpent of the earth. To avoid idol worship we must believe what God said in Exodus 20:3-5, and deuteronomy 4:15-19
ICONS is SIN!!! They are dead, they are objects. One of the 10 commandments of God: DO NOT MAKE AN IMAGE OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN ABOVE . . . Stop leading people into hell. Jesus said the ONLY way to pray: DEAR FATHER IN HEAVEN . . . No, no icons, No saints, No maria, Just FATHER IN HEAVEN!!!! Didn't the Apostle say that whoever tells you other gospel , let him be under CURSE. No IDOLATERS will enter the Kingdom of God. Praying to Icons, praying to anything but God - is a way of worship and a SIN. What is the real meaning of worship? 1 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power also : an act of expressing such reverence. 2 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual. 3 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem worship of the dollar.
@Λούκα Now, I do not need to watch video till the end. Joshua did what God told them to do those days! I am reading right now old testament (over and over again). They were bowing down to ARK OF LORD, not to saints! Never ever any of has any them bowed down to image. And to statues of other people. They were serving the ARK and bowing down because GOD told them to do, because those things was carrying the presence of God. Jesus came and told them that things changed. He fulfilled the Law. There is no need for Ark of Lord.
@Λούκα what you do not understand is - WE ARE THE SAINTS, we - christians according to the Bible. God is gloryfied through us, not through the DEAD. You are an idolater. Every Icon worshipers will be punished. Psalm 97:7 says whoever worship those images will be put to shame.
@Λούκα ark of the lord is what God said to do and it is not an image. Ark of the lord had cherubims! Cherubims are carriers of presence of the Lord. That's where the presence was. Icons do not carry the presence of the lord. God came and cancelled law of Moses and the Ark and any other thing. When disciples asked Jesus how to pray. He said: My father in Heaven . . . Not to icon or saint. again GOD said himself: My father in Heaven. No Maria, No st john, no other. And read the bible from the beginning till the end. WE are saints. We are saints. In greek bible - agios -Holy people. Is the same thing, saints are Holy people. WE are Holy people of God, chosen.
@Λούκα I will tell you smth 100%. Those pastors who teach to bow to Icons and pray to them will have the most severe punishment in hell (if they do not repent). You think, I am stupid and playing with you. But I know where the soul will go. You should be happy actually that you found me and I put that seed in your mind. I am very serious about. You will really go to hell dear if you do not stop it. You do not know your God. And if you do not know him, you cannot enter Heaven. What I am telling you is precious , it can save your soul. All the catholics will go to Hell (unless they repent). I am not playing, I am not wrong. I am very serious about because I have seen things. I have seen demons because of my gift. (same with Orthodox) You should investigate this while you are still alive! I was Orthodox and God delivered me out of this
God bless all Christians
God bless everyone brother. Everyone else needs it more then we do. We have Jesus, we’re blessed already.,
And have mercy on those who are in cults who think their "Christians".
Only OrthoDox CathOlIcs are Christians
Yes, the real ones, by faith.
@@ChristianHada Exactly.
Hallo ! Father Anthony, I am from Eritrea but I reside in Europe, I thank God for giving you the knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. Your preaching are so touching that they inspire me to always strive hard to do the will of God. Thank you for all you do. I will share ur preaching to all I know.
Please to those of who read my message by chance share the preaching.
Have blessed day! 🙏
I'm a baptist who's been considering buying an icon just because I think they're beautiful and think it would help remind me to flee my temptations. Thank you for this explanation.
I was born again 2 years ago, and in these two years I’ve been upset with how the Protestant church has become married to the world.
The Orthodox Church has interested me, but two BIG things convict me. One, the icons are alarming; and two, Mark. 7:7-8.
Is the Orthodox Church Holy and set apart? Or secular like the Catholics… I guess I outta visit one and find out
I go to a baptist church too.
What ever church takes His word seriously, I’m with. No making up human interpretations like you see In churches all over
@@ashtonlambert7673 you should become a monk then
@@ashtonlambert7673 I have the same dilemma. I feel as though “modern” denominations of Christianity are becoming worldly, but the older ones look pagan and secular to me. I mean, kissing and bowing to icons? Yeah, no thanks… I also go to a baptist church which is okay I guess, not pagan and not too worldly either, but I don’t feel like there’s a real connection with God. It feels “bland”, for the lack of a better word. Orthodox and Catholic Churches look bright and lively, but the icons and candles make them look like pagan worship places, which is unsettling to me.
@@Agua678 I think you should know more about iconography and how it was important to the early church and the other symbols and icons that was used by the early. I can understand the secular part ,but the pagan part is insulting.
Great explanation. I'm Roman Catholic and people often accuse of us of worshiping idols too
ua-cam.com/video/IkM7ElcnCWM/v-deo.html
You do worship icons not only you but the Orthodox church to by bowing for an icon rather than bowing for the unseen God
@@newday7469 The problem with your statement is that God has been seen! God became material to save and sanctify the material! The Jews, some foreigners and the Apostles saw God in the flesh: Jesus the Christ! The unbelievers like the Pharisees only saw a man. Yet Christ does everything God does! Are we made in God's image? Does not God say to love the poor, the sick, the imprisoned is to love Him? Does not God say to love one another? Are we not told by God to love images then...living walking images...like you? If Christ healed the blind with just His spit, how much more His image (of the true living God) can do? Even the pagan Romans had a signet ring with the Emperor's symbol on it. What ever was imprinted with it was considered highly by the citizens. How much more meaningful is the likeness of Christ and His subjects then are to the children of God's Kingdom?
For orthodox churches statues and images are not good. Like an idol.
@@gamerjj777 only statues. Icons are not just images. There are strict rules how to paint icon, including spiritual. It's not just whatever artist wants to do. That's why we don't accept Roman Catholic sculptures and paintings.
honestly i don’t kiss or bow to icons. icons for me are just a way to remember the incarnation of Christ. also an icon is like the Bible in painting.
@@dimazanya2568 Was it creepy for the Jews to kiss the Scriptures? Is it creepy when people kiss photos of their loved ones?
@@dimazanya2568 I am not superstitious and I love to bow and kiss the image of my beloved Jesus and Holy Mary!What is creepy?It is like kissing a photo if your child or your parents!
@@katerinakaterinaki9143 but you do not know how Jesus look like?
@@someguy9571 Jews made mistake just as orthodox Christians are doing now. People believe that icons have supernatural powers, it is not about kissing per se (although it is still creepy since we do not know what Jesus looks like and there are many different icons ), it is about bowing before these images and ascribing to them what should be ascribed to one God who made heavens and earth. Now I do not know if church holds this view, but it certainly does not correct these uneducated people that are doing this.
@@katerinakaterinaki9143 I am not orthodox , but l understand what you are saying .Just love and great respect you show and l love the Orthodox Church and wish to be part of it !
This channel is so helpful. As always, thank you to everyone involved!
Excellent exegesis and use of context. Thank you, COA! 🙏✝️📈
I am in the Polish Orthodox Church and get accused of idolatry by my Jehovah's Wittness grandmother all the time. I will try reading her exodus 38...
good luck brother
Well she is lost , and so are icon venerating or statues
@@albusai Icons are drawn gospel
They also have paintings on their walls 🤷🏻♂️
@@juancarlosjuarez3365 that they do
i really love orthodox and catholic churches
Why? They do not know Christ. They are false teachings and following them will lead you away from Christ.
@@eiontactics9056 bruh, what you said is just SOOO ignorant. Educate yourself on those churches
@@eiontactics9056 go marry some homosexuals you protestant
Most people may not know this but OrthoDoxes and CathOlIcs have always been, are still, and will always be 1 Church as Creeds allow no belief in any "splits" in the Church. Most people may however know both the Romanists of the West and the Byzantinists and the Uniatists of the East strayed from OrthoDox CathOlIc Dogma in different ways.
@@samiverson2496 very charitable of you
This is the most excellent explanation I have heard !!! Thank you I will watch his videos .I have been trying to learn about Orthodox Christian Church .This helps me a lot .I will be subscribing .Thank you very much.
You should approach this with less enthusiasm and a colder head to avoid being misguided. Read the bible, there's nothing about worshipping Mary, the saints, the patriarchs, the rituals, etc. Is all idolatry, but because it appeals to the flesh so much, people fall for the spectacular rituals and images and forget how wrong everything is.
The EO church is just little Rome, they will put a hundred obstacles between you and God so you never just believe by faith unto salvation, the real gospel.
@@JesusProtects That is bible speaking. Amen.
@@JesusProtects Just believing isn't enough. Jesus said it Himself. He also said we have to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. John 6. Zwingli started that "in memory" focus. I personally want a Church that actually does the things Jesus taught instead of talking about the things. If you ever kissed your wife or mother, then you've done the same as we do when we kiss an icon. We're just surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses. It says no where in the Bible that those on the other side can't see what's happening here on earth. When Jesus said, "If you're faithful over a few things, I'll make you ruler over many," what do you think we will rule over on heaven? I believe Saints are given the responsibility to help those on earth and pray for us. If you dig into the visions of the Temple in heaven in the Bible you'll see the incense rising up which is the prayer of the Saints! The martyrs are under the alter, just as their relics are in Orthodox and Catholic churches. Also explain how protestantism accepts the filoque when that was added by Rome and caused the Great Schism? It's so sad how many of the Roman additions got into protestantism. Every mystery gets analyzed to death instead of just believing. That's why the world is in the state it's in now. If you read the homilies of John Chrysostom and maybe some St. John Cassian, you'd see what those of us converting see in it.
The worship in Orthodoxy is glorious! God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit deserves beautiful Temples and worship! ua-cam.com/video/dAZu9Wmxjs4/v-deo.html
I'm an Orthodox Christian and to be fully honest, I struggle with icon kissing and saint veneration including the Virgin Mary. I don't like to pray to the saints or the Virgin Mary. I only wish to pray to Christ. Why do we pray to Christ through the saints when we know we don't need to do this, but instead can pray to our Lord directly?
I started attending liturgy recently and it doesn't feel right to me to do this..... I'm trying to understand it more.....
I don't want to abandon going to liturgy, but at the same time I don't want to continue doing something that doesn't feel genuine and right to me intrinsically.
I'm constantly praying about it and asking the good Lord to provide some answers on the subject...
If anyone has some insight to bestow please do.....I am confused when it comes to this.
It might be the Holt Spirit convicting. I did too and left the Orthdox church and I kid u not after I left the Church I have a real relationship with God. If the Bible don’t tell us to venerate Mary just don’t. til now I read to pray to the father in the name of the son by the power of the Holy Spirit. Stick to the Bible alone not human interpretations when u can see it doesn’t line up.
@@edenkid4627 thank you for your comment. Appreciate it. I think you're right.
@@slavi7191 u welcome ❤️
@@edenkid4627 sometimes it’s worries too I have ocd so I’m constantly worrying if this is conviction
@@slavi7191 I am going to assume that you are Serbian, like me? Not that it matters.
So we Christians, or in this case orthodox Christians, do not pray to the icons or to the Virgin Mary. The reason why we kiss the Icons of the church is out of respect. Every icon is an image of a holy man or women who devoted their life to the eternal son of God, Jesus Christ. Think of it like this, if you would to have a picture of your son in your wallet and you would look after it and even kiss it sometimes, when things get hard, you are not kissing a piece of paper but rather what it represent - your son. So we show our respect to the Lord by respecting (in this case kissing) icons in the church of people who devoted their life to Jesus Christ. If you are a Serb like i suspect, then you know for example who Knez Lazar is and why we have icons of him in our churches and why we love him so much. With that being said, we pray to only one God and that is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I am orthodox and do not pray to Mary, even if to me she is the greatest women to have ever lived. I only pray to my God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Beautiful! God bless our Orthodox brothers and sisters! 🙏
He is wrong. He is misleading you by taking Bible verses out of context and comparing them to his own traditions that are not equal. Both the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant were specifically commanded by God Himself to be made. Icons of Mary and the saints were not commanded by God to be made at all. They are graven images.
@@eiontactics9056 Christ also did not outright command icons to be made of himself, does that somehow make it wrong?
The English words "graven image" or "idol" in translations of the Bible may represent any of several Hebrew words. The word is pesel, translated in modern Hebrew as “sculpture” indicating something carved or hewn. @@eiontactics9056
@@collectiveconsciousness5314In subsequent passages, pesel was applied to images of metal and wood, as well as those of stone.
Love this! The christological argumentation is by far the strongest, yet even here you have shown the OT teaching of iconography
Thank you so much for this channel! This is the first video I’ve seen from you because I was doubting a bit, so this was really helpful
Thank you father. Your ministry has been fundamental in my conversion and as far as I know 3-4 others through subtle changes in my life and how I now live the faith. Thank you father, thank god for his grace.
Only GOD can be called a Father.Matt.23:8
@@asyamikula5757 Really?? What do u call your male parent....by his first name? Even St. Paul says to his spiritual children they have many fathers, but he is their father in Christ because he spiritually begot them (1Corinthians 4:15-17)! Christ said what He said to emphasize humility to the Jewish religious leaders, not to ban the word! Luke 1:73 Abraham is called "father"! The biblical word "Patriarch" comes from the Latin root word for 'father' (Patri)! Read with the mind of the Church to properly understand and be nourished with the Scriptures!
@@frankignatius2507
It’s referring towards a “higher power” form of “Father” likewise, we are to only call God Father, not another man.
@@thomas7571 That's an erroneous view. Christ criticizes the Pharisees for being shallow self-centered religious leaders (Matthew 23:9). Proper context prevents erroneous context. The Bible shows many instances of use of the term: 1) "Honor your father and mother (Matthew 19:19).
2) Jesus calls Abraham "Father" (Matthew 3:9).
3) St. Stephen calls Jewish leaders "fathers" (Acts 7:2).
4) St. Paul calls Jerusalem Jews "fathers" (Acts 21:40, 22:21).
5) Abraham is called "the fathers of us all" (Romans 4:16-17).
6) St. Paul calls himself someone's spiritual "father"(1 Cor. 4:14-15, 1 Timothy 1:2,Titus 1:4). This is why we called priests "Father".
7) St. Paul calls our dads "earthly fathers" (Hebrews 12:7-9).
These are just a some examples. Please notice the contexts in these and most were said AFTER Christ's statement of Matthew 23:9! There are more Scripture verses in the NT and OT showing this.
@@frankignatius2507 You are mistaken. Jesus was strictly talking about religious titles within His Church. Which, btw, is the way you are using father. You are disobeying Jesus. Call him brother instead of father. He is your brother. You only have one Father, which is in heaven.
Also, when you ignorantly listed other times people called others "fathers" you are out of context. The term fathers meant almost like "ancestors". Depicting a lineage. NOT a title.
Also, Paul calls himself father of Timothy. It never says that Timothy called him "Father" or that Paul was declaring a title for himself. He was merely describing the close relationship he had with Timothy. Again. Ignorantly out of Context.
All episode's are awesome, I can't words to explain, whole wishes from Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Churches from India. ❤
We ask for your prayers dear friend!
So why my friend my mom was called out of jacobite church
My mom being pious jacobite, used to read bibke a lot and later on she found how the church was different from the Bible itself
Thays when she started to pray to jesus to reveal the truth, wether she is in the truth or not and he spoke to her and He said she is in the wrong path, she is not truly following Him
So she asked how can she truly follow him and live for Him and said i want to follow you if u are the truth
So late on she was filled with the holy spirit even before she was baptized not the common infant baptism
And later on she moved to Bible believing church i.e, Pentecostal
My father was a catholic catholic, he too was called out when he with 2 of his friends sat in last row of a convention to listen to the music, the preacher in the middle stood on the stage and pointing at 3 men in the last row, " jesus is calling you for his ministry, to preach the gospel are u ready to give your life to jesus "
They are from kerala, they came here to karnataka after baptizing to preach Gospel with just 2 suitcases, one full of clothes and the other with some books
Brother, i guess u need to study the bible again and ask jesus to reveal wether u truly believe in him, and wether your journey wil take to him in the end, and u must comfirm by his words rather than what the church teaches you or what u might think is true
May God Bless you
By the way, i am also a malayallee , ma parents from adimali and iddukki
Lord have mercy
☦KYRIE ELEISON☦
We are not God to create icons and worship them we are created beings we are human beings and we can only do one thing and worship the father in the spirit and in truth.
Do you not realize that all Christian denominations do proclaim that they worship God in spirit and truth? Or do you think this verse is only found in your Bible?
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers If the church proclaim that they worship the father in spirit and in truth does that mean that they do, the holy father is a spirit and we need to close the door and pray to our father who is unseen and Jesus taught us this in Matthew unless you don't believe the Bible and Jesus clearly tells us that we worship only the father through him and in spirit, you can't make something that resemble God the father, in the old testament YAHWEH said all idols and graven images are nothing I will not give glory to another and I know that if Jesus came today he would have destroyed every idol inside your churches and told you to repent and that's what I'm trying to tell you brother, repent and believe in God the father and the lord Jesus and you need to do the 2 most important commandments and are : 1-love the lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
2-love your neighbor as yourself.
That's it the church can't change the word of christ but christ can change the church.
Please forgive me. I don’t mean to be rude. But I would ask you, if you deem it wise, that you would start looking into different interpretations from what you are being fed. After reading your answer, iconography is the least of my worries. May God be with you in your research. You can reach out anytime if you have an honest question. God bless
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers all you need to see is what the orthodox church did in Russia. Most so called christians don’t know or believe anything. But they do trust that the ikons if various saints they bought in a church shop have magic powers. Witches also like to use ikons in their practices. Superstition reigns instead of faith. Christ is completely obscured by Mary and the saints. All this pageantry is completely misleading from Christ the Savior.
Thank you father. I often receive hate statements from my Muslim friends that we Christians pray to idols and this video explain everything!!! I’ll direct them to watch this video because they have not studied Gospel they don’t know the exact answer!! Keep up with Great work!!!
Muslims practice idolatry by worshipping their false prophet and his demon god, Alipoop.
I would tell anybody who is doubting the validity of using icons to read Saint John of Damascus' treatise "In defense of icons", It is a work in which he defended the use of icons against the iconoclasts. I'm aware that he is not Coptic, but it's still a good read.
Agreed! Very well drawn out arguments!
God bless
Ikons are not essential for salvation and shouldn’t be viewed as supernatural objects of worship and adoration as is the case in the Russian Orthodox Church.
@@synthesaurus Literally nobody says they are "essential for salvation". Stop making stuff up. And yes they are worthy of adoration, not worship. You know there is a difference.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God. (Ex 20:4,5) The church can talk around this all they want, but the scripture couldn't be more clear. If icons were a valid part of Christendom, then why are there no examples of it anywhere in the scriptures accept as sin?
@@rl4u144 protestant spotted. What came first, scripture or the church? Exactly...
Scripture is fully compatible with the church, just not with protestant heresy
Just a friendly question, not trying to start a debate but...
Deuteronomy 4:15-15 Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. Nkjv
Now this is saying God forbade it because he didn't even want them trying to make an image of Him.
How come the Israelites didn't make icons of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, or Moses, or Elijah for the purpose of veneration and prayers?
The tabernacle or temple consisted of plam trees, flowers and nameless cherubim caved into the walls, of which there is no indication that the Israelites venerated them. As a matter of fact when Israel started to bow down before the bronze serpent then Gods anger aroused. So im not sure how these justifies it.
2 kings 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. nkjv
Plus God commanded the building of the bronze serpent and ark of the covenant. As a matter of fact concerning the ark of covenant the area of worship or veneration wasn't the cherubin but what the two cherubim where pointing to...what was it? Come on...it was the mercy seat. And what image was in the mercy seat? NOTHING...it was empty. The presence of the invisible God filled the empty spot in between the two cherubim.
To me this fulfills Jesus words of matthew 15, and mark 7 about traditions of men that violate the commandment of God. The commandment is not rocket science. Why risk it? The bible warns of idolatry more times then any other sin, and constantly mocks the making of images fir worship.
Thank you, Mark, for your comment. And there is not much to disagree on with what it is that you are saying - especially concerning the fact that in your references the people make the mistake of turning their prayers to those carved images rather than to God Almighty. And so we agree, any sort of worship directed to anything but God is idolatry.
However, you make an important statement "The presence of the invisible God filled the empty spot in between the two cherubim" - and this was the case until the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now we have God in the flesh, manifested visibly for all the world to behold. This changes things! We are no longer making statues of serpents, or birds or cattle like the Israelites did in the wilderness, we are honouring Him who became like us in every aspect of humanity except for sin alone. John of Damascus says it best: "In former times, God, who is without form or body, could never be depicted. But now when God is seen in the flesh conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see."
As for the comment concerning the people of Israel not depicting their forefathers in imagery, we actually have evidence that they did! Please look up Dura-Europos synagogue, it gives some insighton the subject. God bless
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers will do, always interested in learning more about history. Thankyou for your answers. Although i still disagree.
+ mark Anderson i understand what the priest is saying but you can't get around what God says in the Bible, to the Priest , maybe God had made the tabernacle the way he wanted to his liking at that time for it's purpose and that was the only one to be made like it. also if God wanted us to make churches with icons or statues in it he would have told us to . nobody can keep the law and we thank God for Jesus Christ. it's just my opinion it feels that building this it tries to take away from God
@@cvetkojovcevski645 You are certainly misled by the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Bible does NOT include everything what Christians shall do. You can refer to two other video of the author.
ua-cam.com/video/4z95mUdimmo/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/kQG8u-CBgxs/v-deo.html
I was uncertain about the use of icons of God and saints in the Ethiopian Orthodox church until I watched this video. Thank you so much, God bless you!
Wow this question was pressing me today as I came across this verse
Are you an Arab father.. I am Sang Ngabou and I live in the Gambia, West Africa. I love orthodox church and I want to be a father or monk but I do not know whether the Lord would be please with that. Pray for me okay. God bless you.
God bless you dear friend, and of course, if you really want to be a priest or a monk then you should go to an orthodox church near you and the fathers in their will explain everything to you.
@@nathaniel2101 Thank you brother I really appreciate it. Unfortunately their is no orthodox church in the Gambia,West Africa.
He’s a Copt not an Arab
@@ecgmissionoutreachs843 You are the church brother. God created you where ever you and other Christians are is as good as any church.
I genuinely pray that you get a church in Gambia soon.
@አደዳይ ኣባይthank you sister... whereare you from?
Praise Jesus! In Jesus Name I pray! Amen ❤️🙏📖
Watching people spending long time by the icons of the saint and bring “lucky charms” to them does give you an impression of something verging on worship
Following that logic, if someone is gazing at the picture of their passed away parent or friend that is also verging on worship… hmm…
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers
Gazing at photos of your dead relative is not a very good comparison. You don’t ask them to do “favors” for you and people do not do pilgrimage to these picture.
Also, what about the “accidental” icons which end up attracting worshipers for miracles? One such apparition turned out to be a urine stain :(
Wow, amazing. Thank you, Father.
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
(Matt 23:9)
Jesus was literally talking about religious titles. By calling him "Father", you are directly disobeying Jesus. He is your brother, not your father.
@@eiontactics9056 1 Corinthians 4:15
15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
@@Ajjajajss Paul is not talking about a Title to be called. Like "Holy Father" or "Father Paul". He was merely describing a relationship, not a religions title (which Jesus rebuked).
Why some people bowling down to icons then ? Can you please explain
What happens if you go for holiday for example with no icons on you or churhes where you go? can you still pray to God without the use of an icon?
Of course we can, that's a funny question honestly 😅😅
I use icons to focus on prayer I have ADHD so it helps me focus of course ik God isn't in the icon it self . But reminds our minds to focus on him
well said
Would be curious to know what you think of digital icons and how we should treat them. Been looking for answers all over for can we draw them on iPads, can they be deleted?, etc..
I am sure all these ikons could just disappear and christians would be in the same position as the church of the first century :)
Best answer I ever got
God bless you
I'm orthodox and I find kissing and bowing before icons of saints a bit odd. I understand doing so with Jesus and Mary (the mother of God) but with saints it doesn't feel right :/ Can anyone explain?
I have never been an Orthodox church. Im here also if someone explains. Thanks
In my culture and many cultures that have been followed for decades I saw, as a sign of respect, and love we bow and kiss our parents hands or people who are higher than us ,and those saints are our fathers that died and suffered for the sake of God and they are the one who teached us how to worship God right, we kiss and bow to them because they are higher than us in action,and love to God they have, we are nothing close to them so we respect them , and that how we show respect nothing more , we worship only ONE God. There is probably more to that answer , hopefully Abuja answers it but I answered it behalf of my knowledge. God bless🙏🏽☦️
@@secrethuman581 thank you
@@secrethuman581 its exactly that. Bowing and kissing is a eastern practice to show respect and venerate someone. As we can see in 1 Chronicles 29:20. There the people bow down to god AND the king. The western world is unfamiliar with that practice and for them this looks like worship which isnt. Even muslims kiss the hand of their fathers out of respect. So do they worship their fathers as pagan gods too?
who made the bronze serpeant of moses?
I was baptized as an Orthodox Christian last year at a Coptic Orthodox church. I have a question. Some of these Orthodox Christians called me a miaphysite and heretic because I told them that the Coptics are Orthodox. Do you have any scholarly writings shutting these idiots down please? They are really making me irritated and I step out of character by telling them off.
This is something I also like to know.
There are many scriptures that explain the teaching of miaphysite and related issues.... Pope Shenouda III have a book called "The Nature of Christ" which fully focused on when does this term "miaphsite" is coined, who were the inventor of heretic about the nature of Christ and what is exactly the teaching of oriental orthodox on Nature of Christ. You can find it www.stminahamilton.ca/groups/servants/pope-shenouda-iii-books
@Markos pantopolos thank you so much for the invaluable information brother.
@Markos pantopolos Thank you. I'm new to this and I allowed their rudeness to really push me out of character. This Clown Jay Dyer and his Facebook group Traditional Metaphysics kicked ne out for defense of the Coptics. I was baptized last November by a Coptic Orthodox church in New Jersey. I have no regrets. Yes I would like that. I'm still learning.
Thank you!! Markos pantopolos
Wonderful explanation father
Thank you.
The thing is in the ancient near east they believed the idols were literally the incarnation of their gods. Like they'd take the idol to meet other idols and say "so and so has to go meet so and so"
I do not understand praying to icons of men "saints" when they are supposed to be sleeping awaiting the return of christ.
Mo Siba
Thanks for this Abouna, at least we can say definitively that WE ARE NOT WORSHIPPING THESE ICONS OR ANY GRAVEN IMAGES in case anyone asks.
But how should we understand this verse from the New Testament?
Acts 17:29-30
29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
We all know how savvy our kids are these days.
How would we respond if they asked us why we didn’t obey God in this?
Would we be able to insist that God’s Word is the ultimate authority if we didn’t obey all of it?
Thank you for your comment Mary. That verse actually makes the point perfectly: the Divine Nature of God is not like gold or silver - it is not created! We worship a God that is Creator - the great 'I AM'. St Paul here in this passage that you quote is dealing with a Hellenic Community that worshiped statues and images of man-made gods where they believed that the gods actually dwelt in them and in their temples... And so St Paul calls them to repent. In Orthodoxy however, icons are never seen as objects that are worshiped - as if they are in and of themselves divine. Rather they are tools that are utilized within the Orthodox expression of worship of the One True God.
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers But why does God actually say to Moses: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above.
YOU SHALL NOT MAKE...YOU SHALL NOT MAKE...YOU SHALL NOT MAKE...? Why is the Lord God Almighty telling Moses not to make them in the first place?
He is not saying, "You may make, but you shall not worship nor bow down..."
He is saying, YOU SHALL NOT MAKE.
Surely this lets us use other parts of God's law according to the culture and society we live in.
For example, a man may leave his father and mother and marry another man, because they both love each other.
And God says not to judge. And God is love.
Do you see how perverted the Word of God can become if we pick and choose what we will obey, and use it to suit what we think is right?
@@marymeawad9532 Galatians chapter 3 might provide some understanding. Living by The Law is not something the Church is required to do. The Law was given to the Hebrews to guide and try them. The New Testament was written by The Church that The Christ founded and The Apostles spread, so they are certain to be the best at interpreting their own writings, which were written by Apostles who grew up with the Hebrew scriptures and Law. The Church doesn't have to pick and choose anything from The Law to live by, only point to for understanding and correction of how to live by faith instead of condemning themselves by taking on possible curses for failing to live by the Law. I hope this response is helpful in lifting up, never harmful.
@@marymeawad9532 Why Protestantism has so msny churches with so many diffetences between them?On the other hand Orthodox Churches based in ine and only truth and have the same liturgues for 2000 years in every country that are!Ask God ,He is the only one to tell you the truth!Don't listen to Heresies!Luther King,Calvin, Mohammad and others were just humans to believe them !We also don't believe in the unmistakable if the catholic popes because Jesus was only unmistakable and that is how the schism between Orthodox and Catholic Church happened!
To venerate in hebrew לְהַעֲרִיץ means to worship, honor, praise, idolize. Think there is great denial with the orthodox in all this
Well done. You've explained this very well and thoroughly... Unfortunately, even with a perfect explanation and providing evidence from the Bible, some will continue to be deceived or brainwashed into the heresy of Puritanism.
I really like, appreciate and respect the Orthodox church ☦ , I learned alot from it and admire how christ like many of its members are but what really turns me away is the Iconography and how similar it is to eastern religions and the way Mary is presented with baby Jesus in the iconography really reminds me of how the pagans worshipped Tammuz and Semiramis...and that is my main turnaround point
Hello dear one,
Perhaps something like this video may be able to get you deeper into the icon and to see a little of what is happening in Orthodox Iconography,
ua-cam.com/video/bsbbn_nKUKQ/v-deo.html
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers thank you I will watch it and God bless
This may seem like that to you, but is it like that to the Church that for 2,000 years read about the golden calf and how it was destroyed? Instead of seeing paganism in an icon of the Holy Mother and Christ Child, how about seeing 3,000 years of anticipation (promise of the Messiah) and hopes fulfilled (the Incarnation) in holy art?
@@frankignatius2507 could you please direct to a link so I may thank you
@@L.vegmadekid.V What do you mean?
Why did you not adress the verses where them worshiping the thing that Moses built was wrong ?
Very nice video. This is an issue I've been wrestling with over the past year and while I of course agree in principle, I struggle more so in practicality. It would be unfair to say that no one, particularly lay people, fall into iconolatry. While yes, color is just as much a fair expression of worship as letters and speech, none of them are satisfactory in describing or representing God. I don't think John Calvin was entirely incorrect in saying that God can only be found within in the absence of all other representation. At the same time I cannot deny the feeling you get stepping into an Orthodox church, particularly in that you feel like you are worshipping with the saints who came before. I guess I still don't know for sure, but I think that a balance is probably the best answer
Protestantism has too many churches to be true and have many differences between them!Ask God!He holds the answer for you!
@@katerinakaterinaki9143 I agree, ask God. But that seems like a weak principle to base your truth off of - the number of churches. Furthermore, isn't it against Orthodoxy to ask God and find your own truth about Him? Should I not just ask the church?
Thank you for your kind response
@@daltonsteede6482 If you pray to God sincerely he will lead you to the truth. Like Cornelius in the book of acts God listened to his prayers and led him Peter. After God leads you to hus true Church then you listen to them.
In regards to this, Calvinism is like Christian Islam.
The problem is that there are no examples in the New Testament where the early church uses or makes icons. The book of Acts and the Epistles lay out in great detail, how the church should conduct itself, proper doctrine and worship and never mentions images of deceased Saints. In fact, the only times in the bible where this type of imagery IS mentioned in scripture, it's mentioned as something sinful. This video doesn't make a good case for icons, because it's only based in tradition and not the word of God.
I love icons but I’m just wondering, isn’t there a distinction between the way we interact with icons in comparison with the OT decorating of the tabernacle and ark of the covenant? I mean, isn’t there more of a temptation to worship icons in the way that we use them? I for one know that many poorly catechized/well meaning Catholics here in Spain fall into this. Especially in the particular Marian devotions.
Marian devotion, is way worse than simply devotion. If you put before them a rock and say this is Mary, they will bow down to that piece of rock. The same goes for statues of Jesuses and crosses, Catholics will gladly bow down to all kinds of statues. Scriptures are very clear, from the moment that someone bows down to a piece of wood or metal, he or she commits idolatry. As Isaiah pointed out, a piece of wood would make some good when burned instead of being bowed down to ( Isaiah ch. 44).
*I'm an eastern catholic, and I see many easterners and orthodox bowing to an image of Jesus yet ignoring His true divine presence in the tabernacle (the Eucharest.) The Lord is not happy about this and will correct this very soon.*
God will correct every fault in every church.Im a Seventh-day Adventist and they teach about this bowing before images.Although I have my disbelief in some of the teachings in the Seventh-day Adventist church.Im looking for a good church to attend but I find it hard to find a church that follows the bible.I was also looking in the direction of orthodox christain but I find it hard bowing before a icon.But I definitely don't want to attend a Seventh-day Adventist anymore.
@@jenelleg9848 I've heard Calvary chapels are really good, although right now I'm not attending church because of COVID. You may have a Calvary Chapel in your area.
I have to ask if the Cherubim were bowed down to, kissed, prayed to, used in worship services,
had miracles attributed to them etc. and were copies of them carried by the people on their
person or installed in their dwelling places?
As a Protestant i am not against images and i understand your explanation. The point is orthodox bow down, kiss and worship them.
The word "worship" them is not correct. Orthodox are not worshipping the icon, but what they represent (and only in the case of Jesuschrist's icons) Westerns see bow down and kiss as a sign of worship, but in the Middle East (where Christianism cames from, not Rome, France, Britain, etc.) kissing and bowing down is a sign of respect. Orthodoxs worship God, venerate/respect/honor the Saints and Holy Theotokos. If you see a person kissing and bowing down to an icon, you might think they are worshipping it, as one can't known the intentionts on men, only God knows what are in our hearts. Sorry if cant explain myself better, english its not my first language.
@@pabloalvarez7510 so kissing a picture of my mother is like kissing my mother? No... besides it's written in the commandments that we should not bow down to images.
@@alexanderstauber As i said, bowing and kissing an icon its a sign of respect to the person it represents, not the wood and paint of the object. You love your mother and kiss her picture, you are not loving the picture itself, just the memory of her. Its simple, Im sorry if im nof clear enough. Blessings.
@@pabloalvarez7510 well people also didn't pray to the Greek god statues but to the Greek Gods still they used those statues as representations of those Gods.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God
It's clear
@@alexanderstauber Yes, but those gods are pagan, even if Greeks didnt pray to statues, its still paganism and there is no comparison there. I was answering your first question regarding bowing down to icons, and I answered its a custom in the east to pray respects as it, its not worshipping. As for your statement about the Second Commandement, i think its pretty clear in the video, as you also say you understand what Father Mourad explained, so i dont get your question.
Amazing explanation abouna
Roman 1:22-25 is where my concern comes from. Along with Acts 17:29. As an orthodox person I fear it isn’t clearly demonstrated
The strongest argument for icons is this:
Historically, the oriental Orthodox split from the rest of the east with the council of Chalcedon in 451.
Here we are over 1500 years later, and the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches have the exact same arguments and practices when it comes to icons.
I agree that historically it is clear that icons were used in the early Church
Regarding the veneration of icons to be deep in history necessitates being Protestant, is to cease to be Roman Catholic or to cease to be Eastern Orthodox.
- Dr. Gavin Ortlund
My question is, those "images of Jesus" are different between them, how do we know that was or not the truly appearance of Jesus and not other man?
Those images of our Lord Jesus Christ are drawn by the saints that saw him, long hair and on, what differences are u talking bout?
@secrethuman581 He means that there are variations between the images, some have longer beards, and some longer hair. But I myself don't see the issue.
It’s simple when you see an icon remember it’s not like the pagans where they believe that there god is the statue unlike us we have an understanding that they are just the images they’re not Jesus the Saints or God in actuality. They’re Simply references
I doubt there an image of God in the world simply because there no person ever rendered his likeness in stone or on paper. Surprising really when so many have apparently seen Him.
But then perhaps it was more the eyes of imagination that saw His face rather than fact.
Once you come to rely on all these images what are you going to do when they are gone? If you in jail or exile? You going to draw one with chalk?
God bless you Abuna!! but next time i sincerely advice you to put God in a capital "G" because there are many false gods that the Bible mentioned.. i mean other than The True God we know, Which is "The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" thank you and God bless you! it really helpful. i actually needed this so i can explain to some people who are confused about with our Holy Icons.
Good job my dear brother you have a nice zeal about your religion
Thank you father. I understand now.
Your probably more confused now. This idolatry cannot be justified.
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9 KJV
@@brooke9446 What do you call your dad then?
Thank you!
Keep up the good work, from Ethiopian Orthodox Thewahdo church
Ethiopiss
Colossians 1:15
Christ Jesus IS THE Image
Christ is LOGOS... Eternal Word
Do we know that early Christian churches specifically used images for devotion and facilitating worship rather than decoration and teaching purposes? Origin cites Celsus (Contra Celsus, Book VII - 2nd century) as comparing Christians to Jews Scythians, the Nomadic Libyans, the godless Seres, and the Persians, in not having images in their worship. In fact, Celsus calls Christians atheists because of this. How are we supposed to reconcile this with the idea that the ancient church used icons in devotion and to worship Christ?
How can you make excuses for idolatry?? There is no example in the New Testament where the early church uses or makes icons. The book of Acts and the Epistles lay out in great detail, how the church should conduct itself, proper doctrine and worship and never mentions images of deceased Saints. In fact, the only times in the bible where this type of imagery IS mentioned in scripture, it's mentioned as something sinful. I respect everyone's faith, but you should at least own up to the fact that this is a violation of Exodus 20.
1. The second commandment (Ex. 20:4ff) explicitly describes what is prohibited: making an image and bowing to it. Doing that very thing but claiming the images are not really idols but "icons" and the bowing isn't really worship but "veneration" is not convincing.
2. Canon 36 of the Council of Elvira states, “Pictures are not to be placed in churches, so that they do not become objects of worship and adoration.”
This is the accurate translation.
3. Origen(184-254) responded to Celsus by admitting that Christians used no images; he mocked the notion that images were helpful in worship, and, citing the Second Commandment wrote, “It is in consideration of these and many other such commands, that they [Christians] not only avoid temples, altars, and images, but are ready to suffer death when it is necessary, rather than debase by any such impiety the conception which they have of the Most High God.” (Origin, Contra Celsus, Book VII, Chapter 64.)
4. Eusebius (c. AD 263 - 339) wrote that even the incarnate Christ cannot appear in an image, for
"the flesh which He put on for our sake … was mingled with the glory of His divinity so that the mortal part was swallowed up by Life. . . . This was the splendor that Christ revealed in the transfiguration and which cannot be captured in human art. To depict purely the human form of Christ before its transformation, on the other hand, is to break the commandment of God and to fall into pagan error."
5. Epiphanius (inter 310-320 - 403): "I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loath that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person."
He goes on to tell John that such images are “contrary to our religion” and to instruct the presbyter of the church that such images are “an occasion of offense.” (Epiphanius, Letter 51, chapter 9).
Why do you bow before icons... of created beings?
We often forget that it is not the action that counts but the meaning behind the action. Often people automatically associate bowing down with worship. It is the intention when it comes to God, but it isn’t when it comes to icon. Would you judge a human being bowing to another as a sign of worship or respect? Would you characterize the human being who is bowing down as respectful or heretic because he broke the second commandment. If you choose the former, you are right. If you choose the latter, remember that the spirit gives life and the letter kills.
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers But God literally told them not to bow down before images. Acts 10 "As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
Of course you're going to say that! 🙄
So is there pictures of Jesus while He was here during His incarnation that you claim that the images portray Him that are in the orthodox churches... please stop!!!
thank u
God bless you father!
Laudetur Jesus Christus
Hi, Vietnamese Traditionalist Catholic here. This is a great video, Father
But I have a question. In the comments section, you mentioned saint John of Damascus. But according to Wikipedia, saint John is not a saint in the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Is that true?
Thank you, God bless you and the Coptic Orthodox Church. I hope someday we (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian) can reunite our sister churches ✝️❤️☦️
Hello,
Thank you for the question! You are totally right that St. John of Damascus is a post-chalcedonian figure and was not therefore a part of the discourse of the Oriental Orthodox. However, in terms of the exposition of icons, he is a figure to be greatly revered. Because iconoclasm did not affect the Oriental Orthodox in the same capacity, there was not a reason to elaborate the belief in the veneration of icons as there was in the Chalcedonian communion. Just being in a different epoch or region does not somehow invalidate the rich and deeply striking writings of St. John of Damascus, however. For this reason he is an important figure to know and to discuss when it comes to the veneration of icons and the greater question of our relationship to the material world and the Orthodox insistence against manichean dualism.
God bless you!
Coptic Orthodox Answers
Thank you, God bless you too
Father, please pray for us the Vietnamese Catholics. We have been persecuted by the communist regime since 1975 (Fall of South Viet Nam).
@@trubangTrang God bless you! May your witness to His sufferings be a sign for us all and may He continue to strengthen you in conforming yourself to the image of His Son.
Coptic Orthodox Answers
Thank you
But isn't that Commandment issuing TWO interdictions?
"Don't make images meant to represent other things"
"Don't worship the above"
Also, since the same word is used, would that make Man a graven image himself?
Yes. They are idols. Every world religion has them and reasons why. It doesn't matter if you are worshipping an image or not. It Says "not to CREATE" or "CARVE" a graven image.
Well said Anthony
@@maryh2237 don't get me wrong. There Is alot to admire about orthodox Christianity. But the origins of Christianity and its many mistakes are still present.
Who actually worships created things? My wife is Buddhist and prostrates before manifestations of the Buddha every New Year. She is not worshipping a statue but rather using the statue to contemplate about the one it represents. I imagine even those bowing down to statues in the Old Testament surely were not worshipping statues. They were worshipping God as they understand God (different name and back story)
Buddhist don't worship statues, or anything else. They would not be considered pagans.
Why do you pray to mary who is dead
Theotokos (Mary) is not dead because she is in heaven.
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
- Matthew 22:32
The St Mary is not dead, she is in heaven.
It's called, iconography because it's scripture, "graphw" means write,
Most people couldn't read the Bible 100 years ago, yet alone 2000 years back
Image description of the Bible,the life of the apostles and the saints/martyrs that came later can be understood by toddlers
I guess it depends on where the church is located and its traditions. In ex soviet countries, orthodox people are literally bowing down to statues and pictures. That is idolatry, not just a mere ' reading' of a ' writing '.
You didn't address the worship piece. Sure, God may allow us to create beautiful artistic imagery but that isn't at question. My question is this, is directing prayer to, bowing down to, and kissing saint icons a form of worship? It certainly looks exactly like worship being directed at a person that isn't God. We are called to worship and pray to God and no one else.
Hello Dear Bryan,
It is because God has entered into matter, we can encounter Him through matter. We can use the matter to elevate our minds and our thoughts to God. It is also an affirmation of our being both material body and soul that means that we must make our way to God both by contemplation but also through the material means which elevate us to Him. St. John of Damascus says beautifully,
"Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul.
I honour all matter besides, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to me. Was not the thrice happy and thrice blessed wood of the Cross matter? Was not the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Sepulchre, the source of our resurrection: was it not matter? Is not the most holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the blessed table matter which gives us the Bread of Life? Are not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either do away with the veneration and worship due to all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the worship of images, honouring God and His friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit. Do not despise matter, for it is not despicable Nothing is [despicable] which God has made. That is the Manichean heresy." St. John of Damascus, On the Holy Images.
For more modern sources about this topic, we highly recommend the materials of Fr. Stephen Freeman whose academic work was on Icons. Here are some great pieces;
- blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2019/03/20/when-icons-became-windows/
- blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2019/11/18/venerating-icons-its-so-much-other-than-you-think/
God bless your search for Him and your desire for Truth.
Even catholics and other orthodix light candles to the idols whoch is imdeed an act if worship to the idol
But i understand that when u pray to those idols u think of jesus or mary etc
But still i don't know
The truth is even the apostles never practiced these things
Until Constantine made christianity look like any other religion looked like
With tradition, festivals, idols, icons etc
Because when he commanded every people to accept christianity they complained of not having look like true religion because they had
Rituals and traditions, celebrations and idols and icons etc
ccreativ Ghost there isn’t prayers to the icons. it’s reminders. a picture of a loved one reminds u of them so a paint reminds and focus us on christ
@@santigikargbo3415 can i ask a question
Jesus said im with u always, i live in you
Why should u need a mans image portrayed or played as jesus for Him to be with you
When he is already inside u, u dont need to look at a photo and pray to it, u can pray to then God who is living inside you
Will u make image of a dead one to remember them or pray to them, dead ones don't need prayers though
U just remember them, u just bring back all those memories and that lives inside u that how u remember a dead person
Say u loved ur grandmother a lot and meant lot
But u dont have any photo of her
Will u just remember all those memories with her and just wish she was woth u
Or u will get another woman of the same age and try to see ur grandmother in that image
No one can't do such a thing
What catholics nd other sects doing is
When jesus said im with u, i live inside you
But u are making graven images of another man who are artists or actors and pray to them beliving they are jesus
How many photos and images do one has in churches different kinds of jesus
Blonde etc
But the truth is, jesus was never a blonde
So how can u justify this ???
ccreativ Ghost personally i can say yes Jesus is inside of us. but i never said the image means he’s legit with us. i use it to refocus if anytime i get off track. but yea that’s it for me considering im young child 🥱
If he is orthodox, why does he cross from left to right?
Because he is not dyslexic?
Orential Orthodox Christians cross them selves from left to right. Greek Orthodox do it backwards for some reason, it is not the same Church.
The golden calf was an icon of God and he didn’t allow it.
the calf was a symbol of virility and strength associated with the Canaanite god El. It was never about the one true god, and that is why god shunned its worship. I'm still on the fence about icons myself though.
@@saltMagic Wasn't El the name of the biblical God also?
@@christophersnedeker2065No, Allah's name can be found in the Bible, Look at Exodus 6:3 and Psalm 68:4.
Amen
I still stumble at the kissing, and bowing down to the icons. I understand that the image is like looking at a photograph of a beloved family member, but the bowing and kissing seems a step too far in the 'veneration'. Just my personal conviction. No offense intended.
Thank you dear for your comment... it is essentially the same as kissing a relative or a friend... that's all...
So does this mean like in modern day, at least I think it is modern day... But praying to archangels is a no no basically?
It is a no-no. “Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
Colossians 2:18 KJV
Here is another video for those iconoclasts who still not understand:
• ua-cam.com/video/qRFP4Yx6qXw/v-deo.html
Why do you bow down and kiss these icons of you don't worship them? Muslims bow and kiss the black stone in Mecca, what's the difference?
They kissing stone. We kiss a picture of loved one. You don't look at picture of someone you missed and kissed this picture or maybe hugged it.
Muslims don't worship the stone. They worship a false notion of God but they don't worship a stone.
@@HabashyAngyI’ve never kissed or hugged a photograph. Weirdo
Maybe it is a cultural thing.
@@HabashyAngy Maybe you worship pictures aka idolatry
This explanation is based on assumption. The specific direction for the tabernacle does not open the door to allow artistry in the creation of icons and idols. God wrote the law. If you choose to understand it differently, it’s on you. The whole worship around “Tamata” is false idol that icons have allowed.
Nice
I think images icons for only educational purposes not to kiss or bow
The early Orthodox Church argued against icons. It was women emperors who brought them back..
Acts 17:29.
Youre qouting Colossians that Jesus is the image of God, yes but Jesus now is at the right hand of God. Jesus is not a graven images.
Are you kidding me, you are trying to teach us a false teaching.
God wants you to worship Him in Spirit, not with false images made buy sinners hand.
I got one question for you, why do we need those images? Even if it was not bad, why do we need them. The bible says we just need Jesus to pray in His name to God, so you agree with me, we don't need them, than you should not have it or use it in any way.
Psalms 115:4-5
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
Amen
@Λούκα There was a difference between the time when Joshua was on the earth and the time we live in now. In Josua's time, the LORD dwelled between the Cherubims above the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant. So if Joshua was bowing to the ark, he was bowing to the presence of God. God gave the commandments then to not make images, nor bow down to images ( De 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,) So, for someone to make any kind of image now and bow down to it, it is idolatry. Paul writes to the church in Galatia, Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. He also writes to the church at Corinth, 1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. The reality of idolatry is more than just respecting a soldier for their service to their country. Idolatry is putting anything above the Lord and worshipping that. Even if the early church could not read, that would not give them the right to worship idols! God used preaching, not idols ( 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.) Also, the pattern for the tabernacle were given by God and the men who did the work were given their ability to create the tabernacle directly by God ( Ex 36:1 Then wrought Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whom the LORD put wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the LORD had commanded.) There is no tabernacle now that God honors, other than the born again Christian. Now God dwells in a saved person, but no person is to be worshipped by any other man. 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. The Holy Spirit lives in a born again Christian and helps us to worship Jesus Christ only. (Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:) (Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.) no idol or image needed. Now that the Holy Spirit is here in a believer of the gospel. There is no need to worship an idol because we now have a direct relationship with Jesus Christ and can pray directly to him. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
@Λούκα 2 timo 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. I hope you will pray and ask God, could it be that you are wrong? And my sir, when did you become a christian and how?
Good argument, Fr. But if i am to err on the side of caution (not saying the orthodox interpretation is wrong, but just to be extra careful), I wouldn't have images of any sort....just in case.
So then do you don't trust God? Christ was alright with it in John 3:14-15. You salute a flag? You listen to a stop sign? Would you stomp on a Cross?
@@frankignatius2507 We were given specific orders in Exodus 20:4. Flags and signs are not graven images.
@@wanrazul The concept is still there: we respect a piece of cloth or the meaning behind the flag? Are we respecting a piece of metal on the roads or respect the traffic laws? The signet ring of Caesar and its wearer were greatly respected. How much more honorable are the imprints of the Cross, or of Christ and His subjects to a citizen of the Kingdom of God? The ancient Hebrews left a polytheistic country called Egypt. The golden calf was a representation of the false Egyptian god Serapis! It wasn't a bull that liberated the Hebrews! It was the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Moses Who did! Context protects you from a false pretext.
Still going to stay clear from them just in case, and of human 'saints' too
You forget to mention that the Lord came to fall fill the law not to abolish it, which means the Ten Commandments are for all Jews and gentiles. Otherwise if the Ten Commandments were only for the Jews that means it’s ok for us to commit murder,adultery etc. I’m amazed that you yourself as a supposed spiritual leader twist the scriptures to suit your theology. Our very basis of following Christ is from the Ten Commandments that’s how we know we have sined and fallen short of the glory of god and need salvation through Christ our lord and saviour. Your theology is wrong and I pray god opens your eyes my brother and before you say I don’t understand the orthodox church, I do I was raised in it and I have found that the Orthodox Church twist the word of god to suit its theology and customs instead of taking the word of god literally. May god bless you!
You seem like a evangelical cultist who twist the scriptures and other peoples words..Where did he say to discard the 10 commandments..?? don't twist other people's words to suit your perverted agenda..Why did God told to make the Cherubim on the ark of the covenant? Wasn't that a icon ?
@@alangervasis 1. I’m not a cultist! It’s funny how people like you assume because someone follows biblical scripture and not traditions is in some sought of cult, it’s laughable.
2. I didn’t twist anything! He said the law was only given to the Jews which by his own interpretation wasn’t given to the gentiles of today, that’s false. Because like I said the scripture says Jesus came to fulfil the law not abolish the law. What’s the law the Ten Commandments!
3. The cherubim are not icons they are the cherubim that sit on either side of god and worship him day and night in heaven as the scriptures say. So he told Moses to build the ark of the covenant according to the exact representation in heaven. So no the ark of the covenant is not an idol it’s the exact representation of god given to Moses. Please educate yourself with scripture before you try to ridicule a fellow Christian. May God bless you!
Being raised in Church doesn't mean u understand the Ortodohxy right lol, if u didn't follow it wz ur heart just bc ur body was in the church doesn't mean u understood the whole meaning of Ortodohxy , because ur soul was somewhere else, if u got questions and u want it to be Clearfield , u should ask in respectfully way ,or else who are u to tell abuna to open his eyes lol? Y'all ppl who leave Ortodohxy forgetting how to humble urself acting like y'all know the whole Bible. And also we ortodohx don't twist nun , God words aren't simple words to understand them literally , God talks in example,mathphor and on . And again if u have questions as them RESPECTFULLY and don't assume your right immediately. God bless and may YOUR eyes will be open and realize Ortodohxy is the original and real Christianity.🙏🏽☦️
Ive enjoyed your explanation of the icons which is very clear. as we have ET living in other planets which is very well documented across the world. my question to you, if you can please explain why is it not mention in the bible of any such other race as it seems we are the only race that the bible explains. are we really alone in this galaxy or has God made other life forms and if so why isnt it mentioned in the bible. also why is the vactican holding our book of our true existence?
There is no amount of apologetics that can justify this. If it looks like idolatry, walks like idolatry, talks like idolatry, acts like idolatry, it must not be idolatry?
Confusing should I say the least
Jesus is the love of my life, and no icon or image of Him can satisfy my deep longing for Him. These icons or images are not connected to my beloved Jesus. If you want to see Jesus, ask Him to reveal Himself to you-it’s far more meaningful. This is how we Pentecostals view it. We don’t rely on any image claimed to represent Jesus to shape our perception; He is in me, and I am in Him.
no we are not worshiping the Catholism not worshiping the image remember when God commands makes a tabernacle with 2angels and look the solomon house etc
GOD DOSE NOT Want us worshiping him with the help of images
The ark of the covenant?
Have you not read about the temple of God in the old testament?
I don't know much about Orthodox church I am from a non denomination church I know the Bible well as I have read it every day for over 10 years and still learning. In my tradition it is known that we pray to God alown it dose say in Hebrews I believe that Jesus is interceding for us everyday he lives to intercede for us. I don't find anywhere in the Bible that talks about praying to others other than the trinitarian god can you help me by telling me where that idea come from I've heard it comes from the Apocrypha books is there a specific book in the Apocrypha that talks about praying to Saints? I do not believe that that is what God wants us to do which is why so many Traditions do not do that but I am interested in knowing why you do seem to think it is okay to pray to Saints ask for weather God approves of using pictures to help us worship God or and or pray to Saints I also still don't find that in the scriptures the Ark of the Covenant Yaz a picture of symbolism for sure and the temple for sure has symbolism like the cherubim also the bronze snake that Moses held up in the. I think the main concern to me is the praying to Saints I am don't see there to be good evidence from God's word to us promoting that idea anywhere in the scriptures
@@joshuahardman396 You do what you gotta do my friend, we don't elevate saints to the same level as God, we know where God belong in the hierarchy, its just nice to know that people in heaven, closer to God, can be there for us, with us, in all of our troubled life. God bless,
@@willolol3353 gotcha
I see much symbolism in the bible.
Not icons and imagery, i think it is excessive.
Evelating Mary to be on par with God or Jesus?
Salvation through works?
Praying to saints, thats blasphemy..
Everything you said below your first line is completely untrue unfortunately for you
It's asking the saints to pray for you. The prayers of a righteous man availth much.
Ikons are not graven and we don't worship them.
Graven means to put something on a surface. See dictionary. So your putting the pictures on the wood.
It may not be worship but very often the attention to them becomes obsessive and unduly reverent
@@synthesaurus it is clearly worship. They bow down to them, kiss them and pray to them thinking they have some special powers. They literally place those graven images and what they represent inbetween them and Christ. It is idolatry.
engrave (an inscription or image) on a surface.
He is trying to turn and make anything out for him to justify himself that worshiping icons and images are ok for new testament believers it just not right to make something with human hands and make it sacred🤦♂️ wake up people Jesus never taught us this nor the desciple taught us this and never ever will anyone speech and say that worshiping idols are right but one do you know who the Antichrist yeah and the Antichrist will make a likeness to himself and he will make everyone worship his likeness so don't do like him worship the father only in the spirit and in truth.
Jesus is lord amen
How do you know that your 16th century reading is not the one that is wrong? It amazes me how people comment without any kind of research assuming their position is right. Instead of quoting me bible verses that we all know and heard over and over again, I would suggest looking a bit at church history. Not only regarding this subject but many others. You may be surprised. Remember Protestantism started in the 16th century.
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers brother I'm not a protestant, but I'm gonna tell you that I am a Jesus's witness who is a Christian, I'm not obligated to be a protestant if I'm an evangelist, I can be an evangelist without being a protestant but the problem I'm telling you is that Mary is the mother of Jesus and that's it and Jesus said with his own words I'm the way the truth and the life(no one) comes to the father but by me, either you are telling me that Jesus is a liar because you teach in your catholic and orthodox churches that we can pray in the name of Mary, or you are doing against what our lord said and you are teaching people to do what you think is right and you do not stand on the word of God and secondly which means that you are corrupt , I personaly don't believe your doctrine of the Trinity, I believe that we have only one God YAHWEH and one mediator between God and men (the man) christ Jesus which is in the bible I'm not creating doctrines and teaching people to obey me, I'm reading the Bible in it's context and trying to find the real truth, and the final point I wanna make is that the first christians were not (orthodox) 😂😂, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, they were (evangelistic) and you can see it in the bible so I think you need a lesson in history my brother but you can read the bible hand to heart and then ask yourself is the church telling the truth or are they creating what they think is the truth.
Please forgive me. I don’t mean to be rude. But I would ask you, if you deem it wise, that you would start looking into different interpretations from what you are being fed. After reading your answer, iconography is the least of my worries. May God be with you in your research. You can reach out anytime if you have an honest question. God bless
@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers you too brother God bless you.
@Srbin Srbinovic Absolutely!
There are a number of rich and beautiful sources.
1. One excellent series is the texts of Jaroslav Pelikan called "The Christian Tradition" which cover the full breadth of Christian history in 5 volumes and they are great reads.
2. A fantastic one stop shop with regards to early history is the welcome book by Fr. John Anthony Mcguckin, "The Path of Christianity: The First Thousand Years". This text is organized chronologically and then by themes. Fr. John is a foremost scholar and also includes primary source texts of the fathers in very easy to read translations so you can sick your teeth into the time itself.
3. The best source from an Oriental Orthodox would be Aziz Atiya's History of Eastern Christianity.
May God bless you in your search for Him
The idols of the nations are in the flag and the flag is high and lifted up on a flag pole, and those who are serving the flag are serving idols.
The nations made images of the stars of heaven, of the moon, of the sun, of birds and four footed beasts, in the likeness of heaven above, or in the likeness of the earth below, and set the images in the flag, to serve them.
The nations idols of wood and stone, were replaced with idols of fabric.
Idolatry is through the pledge of allegiance to the flag and anthem.
When the king of babylon the great played the anthem at the sound of music the babylonians bowed down to the ground and worshipped the image of the golden statue of the earth.
When the US plays the anthem at the sound of music the US stand on their feet and worshipped the image of the star spangled of heaven with a song.
The god of the US is the image of the star spangled of heaven, and the image of the bald eagle of the earth.
The god of Japan is the image of the sun of heaven.
The god of Israel is the image of the star remphan of heaven Acts 7:43
The god of Canada is the image of the leaf of the maple tree of the earth.
The god of Mexico is the image of the eagle and serpent of the earth.
To avoid idol worship we must believe what God said in Exodus 20:3-5, and deuteronomy 4:15-19
ICONS is SIN!!! They are dead, they are objects. One of the 10 commandments of God: DO NOT MAKE AN IMAGE OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN ABOVE . . .
Stop leading people into hell. Jesus said the ONLY way to pray: DEAR FATHER IN HEAVEN . . . No, no icons, No saints, No maria, Just FATHER IN HEAVEN!!!!
Didn't the Apostle say that whoever tells you other gospel , let him be under CURSE.
No IDOLATERS will enter the Kingdom of God. Praying to Icons, praying to anything but God - is a way of worship and a SIN.
What is the real meaning of worship?
1 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power also : an act of expressing such reverence.
2 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual.
3 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem worship of the dollar.
@Λούκα Now, I do not need to watch video till the end. Joshua did what God told them to do those days! I am reading right now old testament (over and over again).
They were bowing down to ARK OF LORD, not to saints! Never ever any of has any them bowed down to image. And to statues of other people. They were serving the ARK and bowing down because GOD told them to do, because those things was carrying the presence of God.
Jesus came and told them that things changed. He fulfilled the Law. There is no need for Ark of Lord.
@Λούκα what you do not understand is - WE ARE THE SAINTS, we - christians according to the Bible. God is gloryfied through us, not through the DEAD.
You are an idolater.
Every Icon worshipers will be punished.
Psalm 97:7 says whoever worship those images will be put to shame.
@Λούκα ark of the lord is what God said to do and it is not an image. Ark of the lord had cherubims! Cherubims are carriers of presence of the Lord. That's where the presence was.
Icons do not carry the presence of the lord.
God came and cancelled law of Moses and the Ark and any other thing.
When disciples asked Jesus how to pray. He said: My father in Heaven . . .
Not to icon or saint.
again GOD said himself: My father in Heaven.
No Maria, No st john, no other.
And read the bible from the beginning till the end.
WE are saints. We are saints. In greek bible - agios -Holy people. Is the same thing, saints are Holy people. WE are Holy people of God, chosen.
@Λούκα you can do what you want.
I told you about this sin.
It is a witchcraft what you do.
And you will go to hell unless you repent
@Λούκα I will tell you smth 100%. Those pastors who teach to bow to Icons and pray to them will have the most severe punishment in hell (if they do not repent).
You think, I am stupid and playing with you.
But I know where the soul will go.
You should be happy actually that you found me and I put that seed in your mind.
I am very serious about.
You will really go to hell dear if you do not stop it.
You do not know your God. And if you do not know him, you cannot enter Heaven.
What I am telling you is precious , it can save your soul.
All the catholics will go to Hell (unless they repent). I am not playing, I am not wrong. I am very serious about because I have seen things. I have seen demons because of my gift. (same with Orthodox)
You should investigate this while you are still alive!
I was Orthodox and God delivered me out of this