I do understand your desiluion with how Bungie handle the narrative, but at this point your channel is just Fan Fic content, since most of Bungie lore did not follow your expectations, or at least the masturbatory idea of the Winnower is now gone, at least I can say "Nice Fan Fic bro".
This is why you are my favorite Destiny lore channel! Great deep cut lore and proper theories, and not just basic lore tab reading. So many other lore channel are too Byf-ified, that they just say the same things as Byf, who takes the lore as literal as it's in the game, and doesn't really add proper theories or connects things the way you do. I love your Darkness and Winnower videos, they are some of the most interesting aspects of Destiny lore, but so many people boil it down to Witness vs Traveller, when theres so much more to it. I really hate, how Witness is seen as the Winnower, and the main force behind Darkness, even though they clearly are seperate characters/entities, especially after this weeks cutscene.
At the end of the day, regardless of how you interpret the lore, what will always matter the most is how Bungie's narrative team values that lore. The sad reality is that although my points come from the written lore, there is a chance that this lore will either be forgotten or retconned by Bungie, either because the writers don't like that lore, or because they don't have the budget/time to bring it to the main story. I'll make a video on this, but this is what I think happened to Nezarec for example. But with that being said, I refuse to throw my hands up and say old lore is retconned until I know for certain it is.
Your theory got me thinking of a Bible verse that I think perfectly encapsulates the relationship between the Witness and the Winnower. “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and the name that sat upon him was Death, and Hell followed close behind.” -Revelation 6:8 The Witness is the pale rider, embodiment of death, harbinger of doom, but herald of a greater master. The Winnower is that master, Hell itself. Ask yourself this: When the Witness takes worlds, where do they go?
I’ve been trying to get people to understand this since Shadow Keep.. idk why the community wants to ignore the Winnower. Idk why the community wants to ignore Bungie’s inspiration of religion and mythology. The community even ignored all the heads and voices on the Witness.. not to mention all the We, Us, Our statements made by the Witness. Big smh but yeah I believe you’re correct. The Witness is just the herald of the Winnower. Not to mention there is a non confirmed raid leak floating around called “Herald Of The Winnower”. Can’t wait for everything to come out honestly.
I think the main difference is that I don't believe the Winnower is directly getting the Witness to do anything, but rather manipulating them from the background. Ironically it would be the exact same thing as what happened with the Hive.
Peak Destiny content bro. Better than Myelin, Byf, and Evaze - and I love all those guys. It never seems like you need to brush up on the lore; it's like it's all there, a consistent grasp of your vision. Great deductions, convincing arguments, enthusiastic presentation. You called it with the Witness' race being uplifted, but I was bummed that they weren't the ancient Egyptians. I can't wait to see where the Final Shape goes, and to see your take on it! Sometimes I think the youtubers have been around longer than the writers at Bungie. You're keeping it together for us!
Venextron, you are the greatest theorist in this community, bar none. When I first saw the cutscene showing The Witness' origin, one of the first things I recalled was your video on the Pyramid race( Props to you )and how Savathûn told us this origin story back in Witch Queen. Your Theories in this video are well-reasoned, like when you point out how gravity distortion is only characteristic of the Winnower and not the Black Fleet or how he has a god complex because he is used to winning based on the original flower game. Saint encountering The Gardener in a dream is news to me, but when it comes to her being a motherly, caring individual, the writer's nailed her portrayal. I'm of a similar mind when you say you hope Bungie doesn't forget or retcon their lore because with the poetry of the Winnower staying his hand after the first Collapse so we, The Gardener's final answer to the Darkness, would join him to twist the knife as you say makes it clear to me that the narrative potential here is akin to diamonds. Here's hoping Bungie doesn't forsake this.
You really flatter me man. I just really care about this part of the lore, and I've spent a long time trying to piece things together. But yeah it is disheartening making discoveries, and knowing the whole time that Bungie might have already ditched them.
This may not relate to the video, but there is a lore tab talking about how Osiris doesn't remember or possible know about brother Vance (Mercury vendor). When seeing this concept art at 22:10 it somehow indicate to me that the witness may get into brother Vance head and amplify his emotions of being lost, forgotten, not cared for. Also, it's worth mentioning that the only Vendor from the taken plants that wasn't involved in the story yet is brother Vance.
You need to keep your videos up a lot of these other creators were taking your ideas, and since you haven’t been creating, there’s nowhere for us to link people. You’re by far the best Lore person imo because you don’t believe the orthodoxy. You think for yourself
I make all my own theories and beliefs, that's true. But I spend a lot of time talking with people who are REALLY into the lore and asking them about those theories. I even spoke with someone a few days ago who doesn't play Destiny but who is massive into ancient cultures about the Pyramid Race. I don't just assume I'm right, I have others challenge/strengthen my ideas.
@@Venextron if you want one piece of advice… start cutting your videos up into 10 to 15 minute digestible parts…. You would be one of the biggest Lore creators on the Internet. When you release this hour to 2 to 3 hour podcast they’re just too long for most people nowadays. Plus you’ll get more views, and all you do is cut them into multiple pieces and add a playlist right there for people who want to listen to it longform. But the algorithm likes 10 to 12 minutes. Evaze my other favorite guy did exactly that and he’s at 100 K subs now. You could easily be a few hundred thousand. How many times you’ve been right? How many times your beliefs win against the popular opinion? We both knew the witness was not the winnower that was ridiculous. You were right about Nazarec, but they did him dirty Game of Thrones, season eight style
39:34 Ooohohoho, and if the hive succeeded in resurrecting oryx with the light, he’d be wiped clean and no longer representative of sword logic, he’d become a herald of the skies strength. I wonder if that would piss off the winnower.
Hey question, I have a theory about The Witness being the first knife or at least the concept of what the first knife is explained by the Winnower in the Root Of Nightmares Raid lore.
That's a tough one. Since I take everything that happened in Unveiling literally, I believe the first knife mentioned in Unveiling was an actual knife created before the universes were made. So if that is true, then the Witness isn't the first knife. That being said if the first knife is something that exists in the world of Destiny, then I really don't know. Also I'm reminded of the swords that are engraved in the Pyramid architecture and doorways, so the Pyramids are linked to a blade , but that could just be a reference to the sword logic, especially since those blades look very similar to the one the Winnower is holding in the art.
Oh I got another question: What's your thoughts on The Traveler and The Pyramid Ships originally visually being paired as ying & Yang ☯️? The reason I say that is because since D2 at the very end of the Red War Campaign we see the Pyramids wake up from a long slumber but they only wake up BECAUSE of The Traveler waking up from a dormant sleep after being disturbed by Ghual. There's even more evidence of it during the very beginning of D2 that 2d cutscene, the dream our Guardian had, later in future seasons like Season of Arrivals, etc...than The Veil came in But that's just me tho, lol.
Light and Darkness needs to become one again. There are two sides of the same thing. Darkness is the Mind... Light is the body and maybe the soul... The Veil being the Cosmic Mind. The Traveler or better say the paleheart is the Cosmic Egg. Once they were together... Mind and Soul. So maybe the real final shape is only the Moment when this two forces become one again... The strongest shape...
So if the winnower caused the god wave on titan then is it also the one who caused the god wave on fundament? (Which was a display of gravitational manipulation) Cause I might be wrong but I swear it was confirmed that the witness was responsible for the god wave on fundament
That was my original belief yes. However recent lore implies that it was Nezarec who caused the wave on Titan. I’m obviously not a fan of that, but it is what it is.
@Venextron which lore would that be? I'm not disagreeing I'm just curious where this is mentioned. Also I did not believe that the winnower existed but your unveiling video has me completely agreeing with you on his existence.
I’ve been following you a long time, and I believe everything you said, and all your theories with the original plan. But look how bad destiny screwed Nezerec. He was supposed to be the final god of pain. He talks about him being worshiped in the olden days. But now with Destinys intern level writing I truly believe this is Game of Thrones season eight and they were just trying to tie up loose ends. I don’t agree with Byf on a lot of things but he hit the nail on the head with how disjointed this last cut scene was. It legitimately was the biggest destiny reveal we’ve had endgame, and it was on a random weekday not in the DLC. I truly don’t think they know what the hell they’re doing
To be fair not everything I've said has happened, but what I've told the guys on stream is my original theory has two main points. 1. The Winnower is behind the Darkness and the Gardener is behind the Light. 2. The Pyramids are connected a race that were given a Golden Age by the Traveler, and who were most likely Ancient Humans. To this day I still stand by those two points, and more and more I do believe they are being proven right.
I do understand your desiluion with how Bungie handle the narrative, but at this point your channel is just Fan Fic content, since most of Bungie lore did not follow your expectations, or at least the masturbatory idea of the Winnower is now gone, at least I can say "Nice Fan Fic bro".
Thanks man
I toss your salad
"Yamcha, don't thank him"
8 months later, is it still fan fiction when Eido says in the collector that The Witness and The Winnower are separate entities ? :)
this didnt age well 😂 L
This is why you are my favorite Destiny lore channel! Great deep cut lore and proper theories, and not just basic lore tab reading.
So many other lore channel are too Byf-ified, that they just say the same things as Byf, who takes the lore as literal as it's in the game, and doesn't really add proper theories or connects things the way you do.
I love your Darkness and Winnower videos, they are some of the most interesting aspects of Destiny lore, but so many people boil it down to Witness vs Traveller, when theres so much more to it. I really hate, how Witness is seen as the Winnower, and the main force behind Darkness, even though they clearly are seperate characters/entities, especially after this weeks cutscene.
At the end of the day, regardless of how you interpret the lore, what will always matter the most is how Bungie's narrative team values that lore.
The sad reality is that although my points come from the written lore, there is a chance that this lore will either be forgotten or retconned by Bungie, either because the writers don't like that lore, or because they don't have the budget/time to bring it to the main story. I'll make a video on this, but this is what I think happened to Nezarec for example.
But with that being said, I refuse to throw my hands up and say old lore is retconned until I know for certain it is.
Your theory got me thinking of a Bible verse that I think perfectly encapsulates the relationship between the Witness and the Winnower.
“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and the name that sat upon him was Death, and Hell followed close behind.” -Revelation 6:8
The Witness is the pale rider, embodiment of death, harbinger of doom, but herald of a greater master. The Winnower is that master, Hell itself. Ask yourself this: When the Witness takes worlds, where do they go?
I’ve been trying to get people to understand this since Shadow Keep.. idk why the community wants to ignore the Winnower. Idk why the community wants to ignore Bungie’s inspiration of religion and mythology. The community even ignored all the heads and voices on the Witness.. not to mention all the We, Us, Our statements made by the Witness. Big smh but yeah I believe you’re correct. The Witness is just the herald of the Winnower. Not to mention there is a non confirmed raid leak floating around called “Herald Of The Winnower”. Can’t wait for everything to come out honestly.
I think the main difference is that I don't believe the Winnower is directly getting the Witness to do anything, but rather manipulating them from the background. Ironically it would be the exact same thing as what happened with the Hive.
Peak Destiny content bro. Better than Myelin, Byf, and Evaze - and I love all those guys. It never seems like you need to brush up on the lore; it's like it's all there, a consistent grasp of your vision. Great deductions, convincing arguments, enthusiastic presentation. You called it with the Witness' race being uplifted, but I was bummed that they weren't the ancient Egyptians. I can't wait to see where the Final Shape goes, and to see your take on it! Sometimes I think the youtubers have been around longer than the writers at Bungie. You're keeping it together for us!
Peak comment bro. Thank you so much :0)
Venextron, you are the greatest theorist in this community, bar none. When I first saw the cutscene showing The Witness' origin, one of the first things I recalled was your video on the Pyramid race( Props to you )and how Savathûn told us this origin story back in Witch Queen. Your Theories in this video are well-reasoned, like when you point out how gravity distortion is only characteristic of the Winnower and not the Black Fleet or how he has a god complex because he is used to winning based on the original flower game. Saint encountering The Gardener in a dream is news to me, but when it comes to her being a motherly, caring individual, the writer's nailed her portrayal. I'm of a similar mind when you say you hope Bungie doesn't forget or retcon their lore because with the poetry of the Winnower staying his hand after the first Collapse so we, The Gardener's final answer to the Darkness, would join him to twist the knife as you say makes it clear to me that the narrative potential here is akin to diamonds. Here's hoping Bungie doesn't forsake this.
You really flatter me man. I just really care about this part of the lore, and I've spent a long time trying to piece things together. But yeah it is disheartening making discoveries, and knowing the whole time that Bungie might have already ditched them.
the concept art is still canon baby yeah!
Facts. Concept art has been cannon since before Destiny even launched. But it’s like people ignore it..
;)
"... I will turn you into a hat bro" lmao
hehe, those last seconds on the video 👌
Yessir
I’ve been waiting to hear your thoughts on the info we’ve gotten about the Witness and the Veil recently, you definitely do not disappoint.
So the ‘Father’ is a transvestite according to that cutscene as the clarity statue is associated with the Winnower/Veil
Thanks man I really really worked hard on this one!
cant wait to enjoy this video, always nice to see your lore videos!
Absolutely fantastic!
This may not relate to the video, but there is a lore tab talking about how Osiris doesn't remember or possible know about brother Vance (Mercury vendor). When seeing this concept art at 22:10 it somehow indicate to me that the witness may get into brother Vance head and amplify his emotions of being lost, forgotten, not cared for. Also, it's worth mentioning that the only Vendor from the taken plants that wasn't involved in the story yet is brother Vance.
You need to keep your videos up a lot of these other creators were taking your ideas, and since you haven’t been creating, there’s nowhere for us to link people. You’re by far the best Lore person imo because you don’t believe the orthodoxy. You think for yourself
he thinks like a writer instead of a content consumer. you have to have some understanding of archetypes to get the gardener/winnower stuff
@@xXx_Regulus_xXxYou need help?
@@lazyvoid7107 🤨
I make all my own theories and beliefs, that's true. But I spend a lot of time talking with people who are REALLY into the lore and asking them about those theories. I even spoke with someone a few days ago who doesn't play Destiny but who is massive into ancient cultures about the Pyramid Race.
I don't just assume I'm right, I have others challenge/strengthen my ideas.
@@Venextron if you want one piece of advice… start cutting your videos up into 10 to 15 minute digestible parts…. You would be one of the biggest Lore creators on the Internet. When you release this hour to 2 to 3 hour podcast they’re just too long for most people nowadays. Plus you’ll get more views, and all you do is cut them into multiple pieces and add a playlist right there for people who want to listen to it longform. But the algorithm likes 10 to 12 minutes. Evaze my other favorite guy did exactly that and he’s at 100 K subs now. You could easily be a few hundred thousand. How many times you’ve been right? How many times your beliefs win against the popular opinion?
We both knew the witness was not the winnower that was ridiculous.
You were right about Nazarec, but they did him dirty Game of Thrones, season eight style
48:51 dam!! you right 🤔
39:34
Ooohohoho, and if the hive succeeded in resurrecting oryx with the light, he’d be wiped clean and no longer representative of sword logic, he’d become a herald of the skies strength. I wonder if that would piss off the winnower.
The gardener is an art major and the winnower is a business major.
Hey question, I have a theory about The Witness being the first knife or at least the concept of what the first knife is explained by the Winnower in the Root Of Nightmares Raid lore.
That's a tough one. Since I take everything that happened in Unveiling literally, I believe the first knife mentioned in Unveiling was an actual knife created before the universes were made. So if that is true, then the Witness isn't the first knife.
That being said if the first knife is something that exists in the world of Destiny, then I really don't know.
Also I'm reminded of the swords that are engraved in the Pyramid architecture and doorways, so the Pyramids are linked to a blade , but that could just be a reference to the sword logic, especially since those blades look very similar to the one the Winnower is holding in the art.
I am so here for this
Love your videos!
Oh I got another question:
What's your thoughts on The Traveler and The Pyramid Ships originally visually being paired as ying & Yang ☯️?
The reason I say that is because since D2 at the very end of the Red War Campaign we see the Pyramids wake up from a long slumber but they only wake up BECAUSE of The Traveler waking up from a dormant sleep after being disturbed by Ghual. There's even more evidence of it during the very beginning of D2 that 2d cutscene, the dream our Guardian had, later in future seasons like Season of Arrivals, etc...than The Veil came in
But that's just me tho, lol.
Thank you.
Im pretty sure the father she refers to is the speaker
Light and Darkness needs to become one again. There are two sides of the same thing. Darkness is the Mind... Light is the body and maybe the soul... The Veil being the Cosmic Mind. The Traveler or better say the paleheart is the Cosmic Egg. Once they were together... Mind and Soul. So maybe the real final shape is only the Moment when this two forces become one again... The strongest shape...
On point
So if the winnower caused the god wave on titan then is it also the one who caused the god wave on fundament? (Which was a display of gravitational manipulation) Cause I might be wrong but I swear it was confirmed that the witness was responsible for the god wave on fundament
That was my original belief yes. However recent lore implies that it was Nezarec who caused the wave on Titan. I’m obviously not a fan of that, but it is what it is.
@Venextron which lore would that be? I'm not disagreeing I'm just curious where this is mentioned. Also I did not believe that the winnower existed but your unveiling video has me completely agreeing with you on his existence.
I’ve been following you a long time, and I believe everything you said, and all your theories with the original plan. But look how bad destiny screwed Nezerec. He was supposed to be the final god of pain. He talks about him being worshiped in the olden days. But now with Destinys intern level writing I truly believe this is Game of Thrones season eight and they were just trying to tie up loose ends.
I don’t agree with Byf on a lot of things but he hit the nail on the head with how disjointed this last cut scene was. It legitimately was the biggest destiny reveal we’ve had endgame, and it was on a random weekday not in the DLC.
I truly don’t think they know what the hell they’re doing
To be fair not everything I've said has happened, but what I've told the guys on stream is my original theory has two main points.
1. The Winnower is behind the Darkness and the Gardener is behind the Light.
2. The Pyramids are connected a race that were given a Golden Age by the Traveler, and who were most likely Ancient Humans.
To this day I still stand by those two points, and more and more I do believe they are being proven right.
"promo sm" 💖