These podcasts have a tendency to underestimate the intelligence of the metal ranks. There are definitely people that suck in those ranks. There are also those that have a pretty good sense about the game, just less time to grind comp and perfectly execute mechanically difficult tasks.
I played since season 2 to Moth meta and came back for Overwatch 2. I find I know what the right decisions are most of the time, but the time it takes for me to recognize them is often a step behind. There’s also problems I simply don’t have an answer for on an individual level. That specifically being widow and sombra Been hard stuck diamond for pretty much my whole career lol.
@@narcodixyadigg781 the problem is just that metal ranks are extremely volatile and unpredictable, so its difficult to accureately represent and balance around that
Never normally high on flats but when he becomes the mediator to Sam and freedo, mad respect. This argument is driving the community apart and we just need to relax. More deep rooted problem is the player sentiment and their psychology.
I'd be very interested to see what a 6v6 with actual developer attention would look like. I firmly believe that if we had the developer support we have now, but in 6v6, we'd have an absolutely unmatchable game! In 5v5, there are so many problems that are unfixable without sabotaging so many hero identities. 6v6 has always been the easier format to balance, we just never saw the dev team at the time actually try to solve problems in a more surgical way.
@@afterthought9538 I 100% don't buy new dev balancing would change anything, but a large part of me wants it anyways even if we have to abandon role q and find something else
I personally never felt that Overwatch felt “same-y” and I’m wondering you guys might feel that just because you guys are Overwatch content creators, who talk and play a lot of Overwatch, like A LOT. On average I probably play like 6 hours of Overwatch a week and I really enjoy but and I don’t think it’s same-y. Another thing, flats was saying how with role que choosing your preferred role there are a lot of flaws, and that people could just choose the preferred role que with the shortest que time. What if you had to stay on your role for a certain amount of time after the match has been found / game started. Just a thought. Thank you all for doing the stream, it was a long one and you all definitely touched on a lot of important things and made me think of things very differently and think of more things.
@@mckookie2967 I don’t even see Dva that often. I do see Mcree often because he counters ball pretty well and I play ball a ton but I’ve never thought of the game as same-y and still don’t
As someone that has been grinding OverWatch more the past few seasons that I have in a very long time, and as a tank player, the games become extremely same-y very fast even when the meta shifts a little bit. Already this season it feels like every single game I have to push the enemy tank solo while my DPS shoot the enemy tank instead of dealing with the enemy flanking DPS and we just lose. Or the enemy team does not have flankers and I'm able to just steamroll the enemy team, when I'm not playing like crap.
I want 7v7. I know it's crazy, the technical challenges would be probably insane and take a year to figure out, before they move on to widen chokes/add flanks/change maps. But that's the format I would want ideally I understand that it would slow down gameplay pace probably to even as slow as I remember Overwatch 2016-2017. But I think it would fix the most downsides and be the best vs 5v5 or 6v6. The teamfights, creativity, and chaos would be insanely fun too. (They might have to tone down some old visual effects like change sym ult again or tree of life visually but still)
Of course the issue is a DPS problem. I have been saying this since the debate started. Tank stacking was just too powerful. Literally erased DPS as an option for a long time before Role Queue.
I don't know if I agree with that last sentence to be honest. Tank synergies were op massively in some metas but I have plenty of great memories of DPS feeling good
@willwunsche6940 DPS feeling good didn't happen in Open Queue once people realized how powerful Tank stacking became. Unless maybe you were in lower ranks and people weren't playing optimally.
@@ReaveIdono No, I am just an old veteran flex player from the days Ana nano had speed boost and heroes had no limits on how many you could have in comp. I have been through basically every rank from bottom
In being honest tanks where not the problem until end of open que when brig came out and role que ow look devs where doing balancing. That was goats and double sheild meta do you know what metas where before then?. Dive meta lasted TWICE as long as goats did but we barely talk about that. We also had all the nano metas form nano blade, nano visor and the og meta beyblade (nano gave speed boost + Lucio speed + reaper ult). And then we can't forget the mercy metas hide&seek and moth meta so far all these metas are support heavy and none of these are tank heavy metas only 2 tank metas back then where gravblade and grav dragon or those meta where 2 tanks being up those meta where big CC ult making enemy team easy for dps ult
I think we should have a flex queue like league. No ones guaranteed a specific role and has shared sr. U can select preferred roles but won’t guarantee u get them. League has a lot of similarities to Overwatch in terms of roles. Marvel rivals does a pretty good job in making heroes like tanks fun. 7 v 7 tbh is a really good idea. I’d be down for it. But if we’re keeping 5v5, I think it would be an interesting test to try 2-2-1 with one buffed up support. By buffed up, given at least one mobility ability and adjusted kits to fit the format. My thought process behind this, would be to decrease the overall healing in a game. A lot of games don’t feel like they punish u for being out of position cuz the supports just full heal u in 2 seconds. With supports having the strongest cooldowns in the game, I think it would be cool to test it out with just one in a game. This would definitely put a lot of pressure on a support, but with keeping the format of supports that can duel/escape I think that it really wouldn’t be that bad. Sure, in a game where supports have 0 mobility and 0 peel abilities, this wouldn’t work. But with a lot of supports having mobility like juno, kiri, Lucio, mercy, etc I really don’t think it would be a bad idea. This would also mean that there would not be another support pocketing the other, as well as supports being inherently squishy, it would be easier for dps and tanks to deal with the biggest threat. As a GM support player, I would not mind a change lie this. Have supports be the duel, mobility, utility characters with strong cooldowns, but also be squishy and punishable if out of position. Tanks just aren’t that. And I think if we were to keep 5v5, I’d like to see 2-2-1 with obvious adjustments to the support role. With global passive healing, I don’t think this would be an absolute terrible change. Healing is meant to assist with bad positioning, not completely negate it. I mean valorant has no healing and punishes those out of position. Which is how an fps should be played. For the less fun heroes, make em more fun. Give them mechanics that would increase how fun or how good the hero would feel.
@@lilwintery6434 yep LOL. Part of why i think one support would work. Too much sustain is just flat out not great to play against. The amount of times I’ve gotten a person to 1hp for them to get bursted to full hp and nano’d with transcendence is insane.
As an average OW player I don't like being used as an excuse to dumb down the game. My inability to execute on more complicated aspects of the game does not mean I don't appreciate or aspire to them. Removing the things that I appreciated and aspired to made me quit the game.
I get what you're saying. But at the same time it's not just about dumbing down the game, it's catering the game to how it's actually played. If everyone in gold or whatever is secretly aspiring to playing functional comps with a FS/MS backline and an OT enabling MT engages and such, that's great, but the reality is that matches in gold actually did just have six people doing their own thing. So do you have a game where the ceiling you aspire to is good, or do you make a game where what people are actually playing is fun? Cos that is the dichotomy for the devs. One version loses average players like you who place importance on aspiring to good gameplay, but the other version probably loses a whole lot more average players who just want their game to be fun, who want their queues to be reasonable, etc.
@@Nyxtia that's fine, I just don't want to be used as the excuse. Nothing they have done as of OW2 has made the game better for me as an average player, It's just consistently boring. It's fine if I am being cut out of the demographic but lets not pretend that the simplification was for me - an average OW player
@@livaveragegamerthe point is that they absolutely were for the average gamer, things like drastically shorter queue times for dps, more frequent updates supported by sustainable monetisation, etc. - those are things that rescued the game from late OW1 to where it is now with exponentially more "average" players. If you value compositional depth and such over those things, that's cool but I think by definition that really isn't the average player, and that's reflected in you quitting the game while millions more people are playing now than three years ago.
@@Nyxtia I really think you are punching at the clouds. I don't really care how you justify things. I am an average player (very long time). I don't like the current state. Don't say it was for me. Simples. (and yes, I am speaking for myself personally but you can literally search a chorus of youtube videos that will echo what I'm saying in 5 part harmony) I don't want to go back to OW 1 or OW 2. I am looking forward to how the 6v6 experiments go. Maybe I'll come back.
Agreed! I think that is the best of the options even if it has its own downsides. I would love the team fights. I hope they consider it even though there is an obvious insane technical challenge that would need to be overcome and the major problems of last gen consoles and very old PCs that cannot be abandoned no matter what
Don't think older hardware would be able to handle that to a fixed rate. PS4 and Xbox are over a decade old now, they'd either need to leave last gen behind or make drastic visual changes to enable 7v7.
@@vigour6786 I wonder if they could lean more heavily into AMD FSR upscaling and a downgraded lighting model as a crutch. Would absolutely love 7v7 even if there are obvious insane technical hurdles to get there
@@willwunsche6940 possibly but I’m not a game dev so I wouldn’t know the limitations or requirements to push that on older hardware. 7v7 sounds good on paper but I think the maps are already small as they are and it could get crowded at certain spaces, especially choke points.
@@vigour6786 it's true. A large part of me thinks going back to 6v6 abandoning role queue and finding something else is the only answer sadly. I just love the allure of 14 player Overwatch fights the chaos sounds so insanely fun
A large part of me thinks going back to 6v6 AND abandoning role queue and finding something else is the only answer sadly. Even if I still enjoy 5v5 a lot I just love the allure of 7v7; 14 player Overwatch fights the chaos sounds so insanely fun, but the maps are already small and it would be extremely scummy and wrong to abandon low spec gamers or last gen console players who have invested a lot of time into this game and can't afford a better system once Overwatch starts running 30-40% worse. I have a lot of fun in 5v5 but feel lonely sometimes with less players. At the same time I really miss a lot of aspects of 6v6. I have always said they really are just different subgeneres of games for me it depend on my mood Is there a world where both at once work? We have the playerbase size but I don't know
I’m interested in a flex queue. I enjoyed being able to swap roles mid-game in open queue to go on and win the game. Right now you get rewarded for being a specialist and that just doesn’t interest me anymore. I don’t want to play one role or one hero every hour I play, but if I don’t then I get punished because the game has slowly been redesigned to reward one-trick style playing. The game has literally been designed to condition us to one trick through its current reward system. Any ideas that might break that design cycle is great in my book.
Extremely Curious of the multiple formats they are willing to try for 6v6 but what im seriously hoping is that this goes on for ATLEAST 2 months. 1 month of testing is always the honey moon phase. Everyone unless its just supremely bad will be biased and blind to the format. I want 6v6 but i dont want it skewed in anyway
Absolutely. I don't want 6v6 back so I can really respect someone from the other side who foresees and recognises this problem. I know everyone will enjoy 6v6. I know I will - hell, part of the problem I have with the format was that I was one of about 12 people who still played ow1 towards the end. I also know queues will be pretty good. I'll be queueing tank a fair bit because I really miss playing DVa as an OT. The problems with 6v6 won't set in and calcify for a long time. Just like how the majority of OW2 players preferred 5v5 for a long time after launch until the problems of that format set in. Ultimately they both have major pros and cons, and it's which ones you pick over the other. The problem with a test phase is that it'll highlight the pros way more effectively than the long-term cons. I don't think even 2 months will really do the job, but it's honestly a bare minimum.
Seems like the info we need is if the stalemates in 6v6 are largely due to 2cp. If we take it in its totality, then who knows what ground it to a halt.
I feel like chokes sucked and could have been improved crossed the board but 2cp maps suffered because the defensive spawn was too dang close to second point. Not saying it should come back, but you could reliably get through first point. Second, point though…oof
@Nyxtia yea I wish I was there I would've mentioned it bc they didn't even describe it. I stopped watching League bc every match felt the same unless a patch went through.. the bans have shaken things up though
Imagine this: you queue “Open Queue” and select your role(s). The map is revealed, your role is revealed alongside the locked roles for both teams. From 5 dps to 3 support, 1 dps, 1 tank.if you and a teammate queued for the same roles you may swap. First come first served. This is my dream.
My face when my idea was referenced @ 3:16:00 😮, yall danced around it in the least. This concept takes the best of both worlds. It brings back double tank compositions, more complexity, I think its a winning format. Flats had some very fair criticism, I will ponder over his complaints and see If I can come up with any solutions.
Yeah I thought the exact same thing when I originally read the blog post and saw they mentioned they're gonna play around with the queue. The only issue I've been thinking of is that in reality DPS are gonna stay DPS, so 70% of the time it'll be 1-2-2 still, then 20% of the time it'll be 2-2-1 and maybe 10% of the time 2-1-2
I think a better idea would be to split tanks into main tank and off tank. A 1-1-2-2. Creating an off tank could fill the role of having a second “tank” but still present the attraction of playing dps.
@@MxChloeB42 Sir, I think you have single handedly proposed one of the strongest arguments against my proposed format. Clearly the player would need an incentivize to not just lock DPS constantly as a DPS player just queing for flex for a quick que time.
@@Bighoodiekid regarding ur idea, it needs revision. As we know per Blizzards dev blocg, that would lead to veryyyy long que times, even longer than 6v6 at its worst. Keep adapting the idea tho, do good things.
As someone who was once hardcore with the game but has falled out of love with it, my first FPS game on PC was overwatch, and grinded from bottom 500 SR to plat 2900, and I am now plat in OW2, so I am not the best at the game but I had a great love of overwatch it was a game that captured my heart for many years, frankly the game was a lot more enjoyable for me with two tanks that could be killed, as opposed to what we have now with one giga buffed tank. It felt like I had more dynamic options to interact with the tank as a support or dps player, and when playing tank it was sometimes frustrating but also rewarding to learn the limits of my survivability. there was more room for player agency and game knowledge to overcome situations whereas now there are so many abilities that erase the value of your play making and the tank is basically a character that you ignore as much as possible because taking a duel with them is not possible.
Would is a guarantee. We lost like 2/3s the dps playerbase due to role queue. I want 7v7 ideally but at the same time on a technical level I don't think it's possible without overhauling servers and setting last gen consoles and older PCs to use FSR by default + a years worth of optimization, system optimization and changing maps at least. And that's before you even think about rebalancing everything again
Idk when this became lost history, but support has always been the least played role. After they introduced role lock in OW 1, DPS Qs were about 9 minutes, tank Qs were about 3 minutes, and support Qs took about 30 seconds. That's how it was for years.
PLEASE LIKE! I have PLAYED THE GAME SINCE SEASON 8 of OW1 , PLEASE 5v5 or 6v6 it DOESNT MATTER YOUR SIDE!! Just welcome ANYONE this brings back to our game with open arms and no toxic junk in lobby’s to returning players ! As a community I feel like we can do this bc we’re not a toxic community like most gamers falsely in my opinion believe. THE WORLD COULD ALWAYS USE MORE HEROS!!!!
I would also point out that 5v5 would have likely fixed the 2cp problem. Breaking the choke is significantly easier if you only have 1 high hp hero to protect one area.
If they remove the 2 and go back they should introduce a time traveling theme and cinematic with a story of them having to go back to stop the omnic crisis or something as a cinematic reason/ excuse to go back that could actually be done really well if the marketing team doesn’t fumble the bag. They could even maybe introduce a time traveling hero or alternate version of existing heroes (diff timeline version of same hero) that could introduce a skill tree system if they do wind up going skill tree system route as well. Like three alternate versions of tracer u can pick form that have slightly diff stats/abilities from each other. Could be cool
I might have a solution. 6v6 isn’t an option because nobody wants to play tank at the end of the day. 5v5 isn’t an option because the user experience is terrible. What if we added an off tank role? Pseudo dps essentially. I believe this could adjust the ratio enough to not make que times egregious again
@@lordmew5 I fail to see why? Common complaints seem to be that the one tank takes too much attention from the enemy team. However adding two isn’t an option either because there’s simply not enough players for two. Adding a pseudo tank could fix both issues
@@Bighoodiekid are we replacing the tank role with pseudo tank or just adding it in because Then that's just 6v6 again because pretty much what overwatch 1 played like ball was in all but name a pseudo tank
@@lordmew5 i agree but i believe making it an official role might help ques, especially if you balance the game around that idea like for example. A tank like Rein is a main tank he’ll have a high health pool and great sustain but a low kill potential. JQ will be in the off tank role, very squishy but has a strong engage and damage output.
@@Bighoodiekid Firstly, you still haven't answered my first question, which is where does offtank go? Does it replace one of the current roles in 5v5 or are we going back to 6v6 but now we are cutting the role with the least amount of players into 2 separate rolls because that just worsens the problem dramatically by making you need two of the least qued role at least with how it was you could get to off tank players in the same game even if it's not the smartest thing to do.
Thought the shade towards open queue was unnecessary. True Overwatch experience right next to no limits. No idea how anyone stomachs role queue anymore
Part of the reason dps queue was so bad is because there is double the dps roles over time as the roles get more Evan numbers the queues will get better but also more people will play tank as it’s new stuff which will encourage more tank also rein zarya
This is just a ridiculous statement. They could have even more tanks than dps, and that wouldn't change much. People do not like tank the role because it's a role based on theoreticals, while dps is based on bringing things into reality.
@@lordmew5 I know I’m not saying that the whole reason there’s such a huge queue time difference between dps and tank is because there’s more dps heros I understand tank sucks to play a lot of the time I was just saying it’s a contributing factor because if one role has more characters that leads to a bigger variety of play styles and we could apply the same thought process to support because there’s half as many supports that’s less characters that people have the opportunity to play I wasn’t trying to say that an even amount of characters would fix the queue time issue I was trying to say it would make it better I’m sorry for not being clearer with my thoughts but I did specify it was only part of the reason and that it would be better not fixed
flats and freedo are in one hell of a bubble. especially freedo. queue times werent nearly as bad for the majority of the game. Yes there were high q times, but for the average user it was like 5 mins. That never effected the game the way balance did. I think samito has a better idea of how the average overwatch player is feeling.
@@FractionsofInfinity895 Well games are about fun at the end of the day I might switch once if my pick just isn't working. But I rarely play tank, and when I do, if we win first fight, it's an instant swap by the other tank, and probably 1 DPS. I get why no one wants to play tank, and I think alot of it is instant swaps to counter the tank.
@@KingOfNebbishes i mean it all to be flexible again. With the exception that there needs to be one of each role minimum and a max of 3. Shit could do 3 tanks 1 dps 2 heals
The game is samey not because of the devs but because of the influencers. Hitscan is ennobled, projectile dps are vilified. Nonstandard kits are degraded, point and click Myst heroes are lionized. Everyone everywhere must have overloaded kits for "skill expression" but too many stackable abilities is cancer. More heroes are needed but only a select few should be viable in comp. It's the problem with any solved game - the pros and creators have turned it from fun to a math equation, and then pushed the playerbase to believe that calculus is the only fun allowed. And then they complain they do math problems all day.
I think they should add a vronze player just to spice up and bring the most deranged takes. It would be like having an average person participate in the Olympics.
Just pitching an idea, what would queue times look like if went back from “dps” heroes, to “offense and defense”heroes, and the role limit was 2-1-1-2?
Gonna have to elaborate before anyone could even hazard a guess. What would offence and defence comprise, and which roles would correspond to each of the numbered slots..
I think a better idea would be to split tanks into main tank and off tank. A 1-1-2-2. Creating an off tank could fill the role of having a second “tank” but still present the attraction of playing dps.
@@Bighoodiekid Because it's a net additional restriction on the matchmaker. That's just mathematically how it works. Same as moving from OQ to RQ - almost everyone agrees that it improved the quality of games, but it objectively worsened queue times because instead of finding 12 evenly matched players you need to matchmake 4 + 4 + 4. MT+OT queues means you need to matchmake 4 + 4 + 2 + 2. One more matchmaking requirement. And that's before even getting to the headache of getting people to understand where the heroes fit into each role. We're eight years into the game and people still think Sigma is/was a MT and Ball is/was an OT. I've often thought about it as an ideal solution in an ideal world when playing OW1, because 6v6 was horrendous for giving you stupid tank comps, but realistically it wouldn't work unfortunately.
Blizzard killed the game by letting PvP die on the vine when it was popular by working on a PvE that was never going to happen. They had a winner, biggest game on the planet, and just did nothing with it for "PvE", which like 5% of the playerbase actually cares about anyway.
Love to listen to the podcast, but I am just unable to listen to Flats for longer periods of time without it ruining my mood, so gonna have to skip this one :(
…did you think they’d drop 6v6 next week after reading 2 paragraphs dedicated to how they’re having a myriad of performance issues trying to make it work???
6v6 customs play fine. why would they be running into a "myriad" of performance issues? "trying to make it work" it already works! LMAO customs aren't the actual game blah blah. players wanted 6v6 LAST YEAR. it shouldn't take 2 years to put something in the game that's, for the most part, already there. sooo slow 🥱🥱🥱
@@quanchi371 What are you on??? The 6v6 custom PUGs start having INSANE frame and server issues when 12 players hit their abilities simultaneously. Just imagine that kind of instability on live servers lol
I played ow2 first time in years... I had to answer the door and got kicked off, then a 2 hour ban on all modes. I was playing in quick play.... how does anyone play this game. They have intentionally killed this game. No looking for group option, they took away 6v6 and made overwatch gay
Cool lies bro; In Unranked Modes, leaving two to three of your last 20 games played will result in a 2-minute suspension from queuing for most modes. If you continue to leave games, the suspension can increase to 10 minutes, then 2 hours and finally 48 hours. - Battle Net
![The Great Tank Debate [2024] feat. Flats, Danteh, Bogur & Freedo](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ckPGk9pd6n4/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Great Tank Debate [2024] feat. Flats, Danteh, Bogur & Freedo](/img/tr.png)
These podcasts have a tendency to underestimate the intelligence of the metal ranks. There are definitely people that suck in those ranks. There are also those that have a pretty good sense about the game, just less time to grind comp and perfectly execute mechanically difficult tasks.
ive always thought this as well
I played since season 2 to Moth meta and came back for Overwatch 2.
I find I know what the right decisions are most of the time, but the time it takes for me to recognize them is often a step behind.
There’s also problems I simply don’t have an answer for on an individual level. That specifically being widow and sombra
Been hard stuck diamond for pretty much my whole career lol.
This 100% I really wish they would add a metal rank voice who played OW1 to this.
@@narcodixyadigg781 even just a medal rank in general. sometimes i just feel like we’re under represented
@@narcodixyadigg781 the problem is just that metal ranks are extremely volatile and unpredictable, so its difficult to accureately represent and balance around that
Never normally high on flats but when he becomes the mediator to Sam and freedo, mad respect. This argument is driving the community apart and we just need to relax. More deep rooted problem is the player sentiment and their psychology.
I'd be very interested to see what a 6v6 with actual developer attention would look like. I firmly believe that if we had the developer support we have now, but in 6v6, we'd have an absolutely unmatchable game!
In 5v5, there are so many problems that are unfixable without sabotaging so many hero identities. 6v6 has always been the easier format to balance, we just never saw the dev team at the time actually try to solve problems in a more surgical way.
@@afterthought9538 I 100% don't buy new dev balancing would change anything, but a large part of me wants it anyways even if we have to abandon role q and find something else
7v7?!!!!!
This is way more civilized than expected
not fun
lol THIS IS MENT TO BE OVERWATCH
I personally never felt that Overwatch felt “same-y” and I’m wondering you guys might feel that just because you guys are Overwatch content creators, who talk and play a lot of Overwatch, like A LOT. On average I probably play like 6 hours of Overwatch a week and I really enjoy but and I don’t think it’s same-y.
Another thing, flats was saying how with role que choosing your preferred role there are a lot of flaws, and that people could just choose the preferred role que with the shortest que time. What if you had to stay on your role for a certain amount of time after the match has been found / game started. Just a thought.
Thank you all for doing the stream, it was a long one and you all definitely touched on a lot of important things and made me think of things very differently and think of more things.
Played for 2 hrs yesterday and it was dva mccree in 95% of games, it's getting very samey
@@mckookie2967 I don’t even see Dva that often. I do see Mcree often because he counters ball pretty well and I play ball a ton but I’ve never thought of the game as same-y and still don’t
As someone that has been grinding OverWatch more the past few seasons that I have in a very long time, and as a tank player, the games become extremely same-y very fast even when the meta shifts a little bit. Already this season it feels like every single game I have to push the enemy tank solo while my DPS shoot the enemy tank instead of dealing with the enemy flanking DPS and we just lose. Or the enemy team does not have flankers and I'm able to just steamroll the enemy team, when I'm not playing like crap.
I want 7v7. I know it's crazy, the technical challenges would be probably insane and take a year to figure out, before they move on to widen chokes/add flanks/change maps. But that's the format I would want ideally
I understand that it would slow down gameplay pace probably to even as slow as I remember Overwatch 2016-2017. But I think it would fix the most downsides and be the best vs 5v5 or 6v6. The teamfights, creativity, and chaos would be insanely fun too. (They might have to tone down some old visual effects like change sym ult again or tree of life visually but still)
Devs care way too much about what high level players think (like these guys)
I’m just tryna have fun. 5v5 ruined that for me as a tank main
Of course the issue is a DPS problem. I have been saying this since the debate started. Tank stacking was just too powerful. Literally erased DPS as an option for a long time before Role Queue.
I don't know if I agree with that last sentence to be honest. Tank synergies were op massively in some metas but I have plenty of great memories of DPS feeling good
@willwunsche6940 DPS feeling good didn't happen in Open Queue once people realized how powerful Tank stacking became. Unless maybe you were in lower ranks and people weren't playing optimally.
@@ReaveIdono No, I am just an old veteran flex player from the days Ana nano had speed boost and heroes had no limits on how many you could have in comp. I have been through basically every rank from bottom
In being honest tanks where not the problem until end of open que when brig came out and role que ow look devs where doing balancing. That was goats and double sheild meta do you know what metas where before then?. Dive meta lasted TWICE as long as goats did but we barely talk about that. We also had all the nano metas form nano blade, nano visor and the og meta beyblade (nano gave speed boost + Lucio speed + reaper ult). And then we can't forget the mercy metas hide&seek and moth meta so far all these metas are support heavy and none of these are tank heavy metas only 2 tank metas back then where gravblade and grav dragon or those meta where 2 tanks being up those meta where big CC ult making enemy team easy for dps ult
l am glad someone still thinks in this community. it was the problem
I think we should have a flex queue like league. No ones guaranteed a specific role and has shared sr. U can select preferred roles but won’t guarantee u get them. League has a lot of similarities to Overwatch in terms of roles. Marvel rivals does a pretty good job in making heroes like tanks fun.
7 v 7 tbh is a really good idea. I’d be down for it. But if we’re keeping 5v5, I think it would be an interesting test to try 2-2-1 with one buffed up support. By buffed up, given at least one mobility ability and adjusted kits to fit the format. My thought process behind this, would be to decrease the overall healing in a game. A lot of games don’t feel like they punish u for being out of position cuz the supports just full heal u in 2 seconds. With supports having the strongest cooldowns in the game, I think it would be cool to test it out with just one in a game. This would definitely put a lot of pressure on a support, but with keeping the format of supports that can duel/escape I think that it really wouldn’t be that bad. Sure, in a game where supports have 0 mobility and 0 peel abilities, this wouldn’t work. But with a lot of supports having mobility like juno, kiri, Lucio, mercy, etc I really don’t think it would be a bad idea. This would also mean that there would not be another support pocketing the other, as well as supports being inherently squishy, it would be easier for dps and tanks to deal with the biggest threat. As a GM support player, I would not mind a change lie this. Have supports be the duel, mobility, utility characters with strong cooldowns, but also be squishy and punishable if out of position. Tanks just aren’t that. And I think if we were to keep 5v5, I’d like to see 2-2-1 with obvious adjustments to the support role. With global passive healing, I don’t think this would be an absolute terrible change. Healing is meant to assist with bad positioning, not completely negate it. I mean valorant has no healing and punishes those out of position. Which is how an fps should be played.
For the less fun heroes, make em more fun. Give them mechanics that would increase how fun or how good the hero would feel.
ttk in rivals is so high everyone almost feels like an ow1 offtank
@@lilwintery6434 yep LOL. Part of why i think one support would work. Too much sustain is just flat out not great to play against. The amount of times I’ve gotten a person to 1hp for them to get bursted to full hp and nano’d with transcendence is insane.
As an average OW player I don't like being used as an excuse to dumb down the game. My inability to execute on more complicated aspects of the game does not mean I don't appreciate or aspire to them. Removing the things that I appreciated and aspired to made me quit the game.
I get what you're saying. But at the same time it's not just about dumbing down the game, it's catering the game to how it's actually played.
If everyone in gold or whatever is secretly aspiring to playing functional comps with a FS/MS backline and an OT enabling MT engages and such, that's great, but the reality is that matches in gold actually did just have six people doing their own thing.
So do you have a game where the ceiling you aspire to is good, or do you make a game where what people are actually playing is fun? Cos that is the dichotomy for the devs.
One version loses average players like you who place importance on aspiring to good gameplay, but the other version probably loses a whole lot more average players who just want their game to be fun, who want their queues to be reasonable, etc.
@@Nyxtia that's fine, I just don't want to be used as the excuse. Nothing they have done as of OW2 has made the game better for me as an average player, It's just consistently boring. It's fine if I am being cut out of the demographic but lets not pretend that the simplification was for me - an average OW player
@@livaveragegamerthe point is that they absolutely were for the average gamer, things like drastically shorter queue times for dps, more frequent updates supported by sustainable monetisation, etc. - those are things that rescued the game from late OW1 to where it is now with exponentially more "average" players. If you value compositional depth and such over those things, that's cool but I think by definition that really isn't the average player, and that's reflected in you quitting the game while millions more people are playing now than three years ago.
@@Nyxtia I really think you are punching at the clouds. I don't really care how you justify things. I am an average player (very long time). I don't like the current state. Don't say it was for me. Simples. (and yes, I am speaking for myself personally but you can literally search a chorus of youtube videos that will echo what I'm saying in 5 part harmony)
I don't want to go back to OW 1 or OW 2. I am looking forward to how the 6v6 experiments go. Maybe I'll come back.
Widen the chokes, go 7v7, let it rip
Agreed! I think that is the best of the options even if it has its own downsides. I would love the team fights.
I hope they consider it even though there is an obvious insane technical challenge that would need to be overcome and the major problems of last gen consoles and very old PCs that cannot be abandoned no matter what
8v8. 2 tanks (for OG overwatch), 3 DPS (queue times), 3 Supports (queue times and help heal the increased amount of players)
The chaos would be unbearable, please no
Flats was actually cooking with this 7v7 argument. Really put the pepper on with the anti-power creep. I'm sold
Don't think older hardware would be able to handle that to a fixed rate. PS4 and Xbox are over a decade old now, they'd either need to leave last gen behind or make drastic visual changes to enable 7v7.
7v7 sounds horrible and if this would really be released I'm out. Immediately.
@@vigour6786 I wonder if they could lean more heavily into AMD FSR upscaling and a downgraded lighting model as a crutch. Would absolutely love 7v7 even if there are obvious insane technical hurdles to get there
@@willwunsche6940 possibly but I’m not a game dev so I wouldn’t know the limitations or requirements to push that on older hardware. 7v7 sounds good on paper but I think the maps are already small as they are and it could get crowded at certain spaces, especially choke points.
@@vigour6786 it's true. A large part of me thinks going back to 6v6 abandoning role queue and finding something else is the only answer sadly. I just love the allure of 14 player Overwatch fights the chaos sounds so insanely fun
I am so happy to see the return of 6v6. The happiest I’ve felt as an OW fan. Anything new other than 5v5 is awesome.
A large part of me thinks going back to 6v6 AND abandoning role queue and finding something else is the only answer sadly. Even if I still enjoy 5v5 a lot
I just love the allure of 7v7; 14 player Overwatch fights the chaos sounds so insanely fun, but the maps are already small and it would be extremely scummy and wrong to abandon low spec gamers or last gen console players who have invested a lot of time into this game and can't afford a better system once Overwatch starts running 30-40% worse. I have a lot of fun in 5v5 but feel lonely sometimes with less players. At the same time I really miss a lot of aspects of 6v6. I have always said they really are just different subgeneres of games for me it depend on my mood
Is there a world where both at once work? We have the playerbase size but I don't know
I’m interested in a flex queue. I enjoyed being able to swap roles mid-game in open queue to go on and win the game. Right now you get rewarded for being a specialist and that just doesn’t interest me anymore. I don’t want to play one role or one hero every hour I play, but if I don’t then I get punished because the game has slowly been redesigned to reward one-trick style playing. The game has literally been designed to condition us to one trick through its current reward system. Any ideas that might break that design cycle is great in my book.
Extremely Curious of the multiple formats they are willing to try for 6v6 but what im seriously hoping is that this goes on for ATLEAST 2 months.
1 month of testing is always the honey moon phase. Everyone unless its just supremely bad will be biased and blind to the format. I want 6v6 but i dont want it skewed in anyway
They said 2 seasons away
Absolutely. I don't want 6v6 back so I can really respect someone from the other side who foresees and recognises this problem.
I know everyone will enjoy 6v6. I know I will - hell, part of the problem I have with the format was that I was one of about 12 people who still played ow1 towards the end. I also know queues will be pretty good. I'll be queueing tank a fair bit because I really miss playing DVa as an OT.
The problems with 6v6 won't set in and calcify for a long time. Just like how the majority of OW2 players preferred 5v5 for a long time after launch until the problems of that format set in.
Ultimately they both have major pros and cons, and it's which ones you pick over the other. The problem with a test phase is that it'll highlight the pros way more effectively than the long-term cons. I don't think even 2 months will really do the job, but it's honestly a bare minimum.
Seems like the info we need is if the stalemates in 6v6 are largely due to 2cp. If we take it in its totality, then who knows what ground it to a halt.
I feel like chokes sucked and could have been improved crossed the board but
2cp maps suffered because the defensive spawn was too dang close to second point. Not saying it should come back, but you could reliably get through first point. Second, point though…oof
I wish I knew this was live. I would've brought up the bans in EWC OW and how fun they've been.
3:19:50
@Nyxtia yea I wish I was there I would've mentioned it bc they didn't even describe it. I stopped watching League bc every match felt the same unless a patch went through.. the bans have shaken things up though
Imagine this: you queue “Open Queue” and select your role(s). The map is revealed, your role is revealed alongside the locked roles for both teams. From 5 dps to 3 support, 1 dps, 1 tank.if you and a teammate queued for the same roles you may swap. First come first served. This is my dream.
None of what you said made any sense
I’m kind of following you on that, but yea that’s not super clear. but I like the creativity.
1-1-1 lock with 2 flex per team, limit 2 per role. Use DPS passives to keep 2-1-2 in check.
My face when my idea was referenced @ 3:16:00 😮, yall danced around it in the least. This concept takes the best of both worlds. It brings back double tank compositions, more complexity, I think its a winning format. Flats had some very fair criticism, I will ponder over his complaints and see If I can come up with any solutions.
Yeah I thought the exact same thing when I originally read the blog post and saw they mentioned they're gonna play around with the queue. The only issue I've been thinking of is that in reality DPS are gonna stay DPS, so 70% of the time it'll be 1-2-2 still, then 20% of the time it'll be 2-2-1 and maybe 10% of the time 2-1-2
I think a better idea would be to split tanks into main tank and off tank. A 1-1-2-2. Creating an off tank could fill the role of having a second “tank” but still present the attraction of playing dps.
@@MxChloeB42 Sir, I think you have single handedly proposed one of the strongest arguments against my proposed format. Clearly the player would need an incentivize to not just lock DPS constantly as a DPS player just queing for flex for a quick que time.
@@Bighoodiekid regarding ur idea, it needs revision. As we know per Blizzards dev blocg, that would lead to veryyyy long que times, even longer than 6v6 at its worst. Keep adapting the idea tho, do good things.
As someone who was once hardcore with the game but has falled out of love with it, my first FPS game on PC was overwatch, and grinded from bottom 500 SR to plat 2900, and I am now plat in OW2, so I am not the best at the game but I had a great love of overwatch it was a game that captured my heart for many years, frankly the game was a lot more enjoyable for me with two tanks that could be killed, as opposed to what we have now with one giga buffed tank. It felt like I had more dynamic options to interact with the tank as a support or dps player, and when playing tank it was sometimes frustrating but also rewarding to learn the limits of my survivability. there was more room for player agency and game knowledge to overcome situations whereas now there are so many abilities that erase the value of your play making and the tank is basically a character that you ignore as much as possible because taking a duel with them is not possible.
The only reason flats has left 6v6 is because of Aaron saying it could make q times longer..
Would, not could
Would is a guarantee. We lost like 2/3s the dps playerbase due to role queue. I want 7v7 ideally
but at the same time on a technical level I don't think it's possible without overhauling servers and setting last gen consoles and older PCs to use FSR by default + a years worth of optimization, system optimization and changing maps at least. And that's before you even think about rebalancing everything again
Which is the most important point. I rather play 5 games in an hour than 2
Idk when this became lost history, but support has always been the least played role. After they introduced role lock in OW 1, DPS Qs were about 9 minutes, tank Qs were about 3 minutes, and support Qs took about 30 seconds. That's how it was for years.
Would it be viable to have 6v6 or 7v7 role lock with a 5v5 open queue?
As a console silver Winston man I wish I was in this call
PLEASE LIKE! I have PLAYED THE GAME SINCE SEASON 8 of OW1 , PLEASE 5v5 or 6v6 it DOESNT MATTER YOUR SIDE!! Just welcome ANYONE this brings back to our game with open arms and no toxic junk in lobby’s to returning players ! As a community I feel like we can do this bc we’re not a toxic community like most gamers falsely in my opinion believe. THE WORLD COULD ALWAYS USE MORE HEROS!!!!
I would also point out that 5v5 would have likely fixed the 2cp problem. Breaking the choke is significantly easier if you only have 1 high hp hero to protect one area.
If they remove the 2 and go back they should introduce a time traveling theme and cinematic with a story of them having to go back to stop the omnic crisis or something as a cinematic reason/ excuse to go back that could actually be done really well if the marketing team doesn’t fumble the bag. They could even maybe introduce a time traveling hero or alternate version of existing heroes (diff timeline version of same hero) that could introduce a skill tree system if they do wind up going skill tree system route as well. Like three alternate versions of tracer u can pick form that have slightly diff stats/abilities from each other. Could be cool
I might have a solution. 6v6 isn’t an option because nobody wants to play tank at the end of the day. 5v5 isn’t an option because the user experience is terrible. What if we added an off tank role? Pseudo dps essentially. I believe this could adjust the ratio enough to not make que times egregious again
You would just lose dedicated tank players and the dps and supports who like to hide behind them.
@@lordmew5 I fail to see why? Common complaints seem to be that the one tank takes too much attention from the enemy team. However adding two isn’t an option either because there’s simply not enough players for two. Adding a pseudo tank could fix both issues
@@Bighoodiekid are we replacing the tank role with pseudo tank or just adding it in because Then that's just 6v6 again because pretty much what overwatch 1 played like ball was in all but name a pseudo tank
@@lordmew5 i agree but i believe making it an official role might help ques, especially if you balance the game around that idea like for example. A tank like Rein is a main tank he’ll have a high health pool and great sustain but a low kill potential. JQ will be in the off tank role, very squishy but has a strong engage and damage output.
@@Bighoodiekid Firstly, you still haven't answered my first question, which is where does offtank go? Does it replace one of the current roles in 5v5 or are we going back to 6v6 but now we are cutting the role with the least amount of players into 2 separate rolls because that just worsens the problem dramatically by making you need two of the least qued role at least with how it was you could get to off tank players in the same game even if it's not the smartest thing to do.
Thought the shade towards open queue was unnecessary. True Overwatch experience right next to no limits. No idea how anyone stomachs role queue anymore
Part of the reason dps queue was so bad is because there is double the dps roles over time as the roles get more Evan numbers the queues will get better but also more people will play tank as it’s new stuff which will encourage more tank also rein zarya
This is just a ridiculous statement. They could have even more tanks than dps, and that wouldn't change much. People do not like tank the role because it's a role based on theoreticals, while dps is based on bringing things into reality.
@@lordmew5 I know I’m not saying that the whole reason there’s such a huge queue time difference between dps and tank is because there’s more dps heros I understand tank sucks to play a lot of the time I was just saying it’s a contributing factor because if one role has more characters that leads to a bigger variety of play styles and we could apply the same thought process to support because there’s half as many supports that’s less characters that people have the opportunity to play I wasn’t trying to say that an even amount of characters would fix the queue time issue I was trying to say it would make it better I’m sorry for not being clearer with my thoughts but I did specify it was only part of the reason and that it would be better not fixed
They finally talk about 6v6 and what's the community say "Actually 7v7!" 🤣
flats and freedo are in one hell of a bubble. especially freedo. queue times werent nearly as bad for the majority of the game. Yes there were high q times, but for the average user it was like 5 mins. That never effected the game the way balance did. I think samito has a better idea of how the average overwatch player is feeling.
As just a gold player I NEVER swap. No matter who I start with, I will finish with. I find swapping boring, cravenness and simply dishonorable.
based
So you throw your teams match in the name of fun and honor?
@@FractionsofInfinity895 Well games are about fun at the end of the day
I might switch once if my pick just isn't working.
But I rarely play tank, and when I do, if we win first fight, it's an instant swap by the other tank, and probably 1 DPS. I get why no one wants to play tank, and I think alot of it is instant swaps to counter the tank.
go back to 6v6. but have a role cap. ie. Tanks capped at 2. dps and support capped at 3. must have a min of 1. ie 1-3-2. 2-1-3
1-3-2 was tried and was abysmal.
@@KingOfNebbishes i mean it all to be flexible again. With the exception that there needs to be one of each role minimum and a max of 3. Shit could do 3 tanks 1 dps 2 heals
@@beejjoss4973 So Sombra Goats.
I will never go back to 6v6. Too many downsides not enough positives aspects.
The one trick problem was a result of certain characters getting more sr than others... not open queue
Is there a world where both at once work? We have the playerbase size but I don't know
Can someone time stamp all the times samito speaks.
😂
I live for these podcasts. They're how I cope with my life.
sad story
Make tanks.. brawlers :)
To eliminate the feeling of “samey”, how about ask for a greater overhaul of maps than what we have been getting? Might be good but idk
That wouldn't help because many people who came into overwatch 2 and only played 2 feel the same way
The game is samey not because of the devs but because of the influencers. Hitscan is ennobled, projectile dps are vilified. Nonstandard kits are degraded, point and click Myst heroes are lionized. Everyone everywhere must have overloaded kits for "skill expression" but too many stackable abilities is cancer. More heroes are needed but only a select few should be viable in comp.
It's the problem with any solved game - the pros and creators have turned it from fun to a math equation, and then pushed the playerbase to believe that calculus is the only fun allowed. And then they complain they do math problems all day.
I think they should add a vronze player just to spice up and bring the most deranged takes. It would be like having an average person participate in the Olympics.
I love freedo but it’s weird how he can turn Samito being a high rank player into a point against his arguments.
There has been a growing sentiment of how balancing for pro players ruins casual player's fun.
23:50 we love WINTON OVERWAT
Just pitching an idea, what would queue times look like if went back from “dps” heroes, to “offense and defense”heroes, and the role limit was 2-1-1-2?
Gonna have to elaborate before anyone could even hazard a guess. What would offence and defence comprise, and which roles would correspond to each of the numbered slots..
I think a better idea would be to split tanks into main tank and off tank. A 1-1-2-2. Creating an off tank could fill the role of having a second “tank” but still present the attraction of playing dps.
@@Bighoodiekid this just makes queues even worse by the way
@@Nyxtia how do you know? has it been tested
@@Bighoodiekid Because it's a net additional restriction on the matchmaker. That's just mathematically how it works. Same as moving from OQ to RQ - almost everyone agrees that it improved the quality of games, but it objectively worsened queue times because instead of finding 12 evenly matched players you need to matchmake 4 + 4 + 4.
MT+OT queues means you need to matchmake 4 + 4 + 2 + 2. One more matchmaking requirement.
And that's before even getting to the headache of getting people to understand where the heroes fit into each role. We're eight years into the game and people still think Sigma is/was a MT and Ball is/was an OT.
I've often thought about it as an ideal solution in an ideal world when playing OW1, because 6v6 was horrendous for giving you stupid tank comps, but realistically it wouldn't work unfortunately.
Blizzard killed the game they cancelled pve. They will never recover from that
Blizzard killed the game by letting PvP die on the vine when it was popular by working on a PvE that was never going to happen. They had a winner, biggest game on the planet, and just did nothing with it for "PvE", which like 5% of the playerbase actually cares about anyway.
Love to listen to the podcast, but I am just unable to listen to Flats for longer periods of time without it ruining my mood, so gonna have to skip this one :(
6v6 RETURNS...
...sometime next year🥱🥱🥱
…did you think they’d drop 6v6 next week after reading 2 paragraphs dedicated to how they’re having a myriad of performance issues trying to make it work???
6v6 customs play fine. why would they be running into a "myriad" of performance issues? "trying to make it work" it already works! LMAO
customs aren't the actual game blah blah. players wanted 6v6 LAST YEAR. it shouldn't take 2 years to put something in the game that's, for the most part, already there.
sooo slow 🥱🥱🥱
@@quanchi371 What are you on??? The 6v6 custom PUGs start having INSANE frame and server issues when 12 players hit their abilities simultaneously. Just imagine that kind of instability on live servers lol
An open queue position.
Even after 6v6 is back, the devs will fuck up the balancing and some streamers will keep crying..
2 tanks, 3 DPS, and 3 Supports. Boom game fixed
Just revert everything and only keep the little bit better graphics and ui. and than start balancing
If they reverted all the lame changes, give McCree his flashbang back, doom fist old skills and stuff, I'll consider coming back to the game
7v7 !!!!!!!!
I played ow2 first time in years... I had to answer the door and got kicked off, then a 2 hour ban on all modes. I was playing in quick play.... how does anyone play this game. They have intentionally killed this game. No looking for group option, they took away 6v6 and made overwatch gay
Holy fucking brain rot
So what you are telling us is a lie. You left quick play before. You wont get banned for 2 hours on your first leave on qp.
Cool lies bro;
In Unranked Modes, leaving two to three of your last 20 games played will result in a 2-minute suspension from queuing for most modes. If you continue to leave games, the suspension can increase to 10 minutes, then 2 hours and finally 48 hours. - Battle Net
Leaving 5 out of 20 games is kinda crazy, literally can't even finish 1 in 4 games. Get over yourself. Got what was deserved.
"Things that never happened for $500 Alex"
6v6 is flat earth
2:11:48 Oh really Flats, you don't say? Then why even bother showing up to this debate? Who would've thought neither solution is perfect lol