Deacon Jones also was responsible for the head slap being outlawed. But the NFL waited until he retired to put in the rule. He also had 22 sack, 22 sack and 21.5 sack seasons in 14 game seasons. He was one bad man.
Ed "too tall" Jones definitely should have made the list. Besides sacks and dropping running backs for a lose. How many passes were batted down or intercepted.
@@Whodeysportscards aw that HOF just puts people in because they are A** kissers. It's political just like every thing else is. I pay as much attention to the HOF as I would a dog across the street. Banning Pete Rose from the baseball HOF shows me that if certain people don't like you, it's not going to happen. That goes for the NFL, NBA, MLB. They all the same
Gino the Giant was named the greatest defensive end of the NFL’s first 50 years. Deacon Jones himself said that he got his pass rush moves from Gino. Gino should be on this list.
Not having Gino Marchetti on this list reflects a complete lack of understanding how the NFL game has changed over the decades. Players need to be judged against his contemporaries. Gino Marchetti was the most dominant defensive lineman during the 1950s and early 1960s. In 1972 the Pro Football HOF called Gino the greatest DE in pro football history. And yet he gets left off this list. To illustrate my point further, take Don Hutson an end who played for Green Bay from 1935 to 1945. Arguably, he is the greatest pass receiver in NFL history and few can tell you who he is. Why? He played before TVs were available and there is little game film remaining from that era. He amassed 8000 yds receiving, 88 touchdowns, 488 receptions and was on the All NFL team nine times all the while playing both ways. His records were not surpassed until three decades after he retired. How dominant was Don Hutson? The only other end in the HOF who was a contemporary of Don Hutson was Wayne Milner. Hid stats: 1800 yds receiving, 12 TDs and 124 receptions. Don Hutson had 4x the receiving yds of his nearest competitor. Even Jerry Rice, who I consider the modern GOAT receiver shows that kind of dominance over his contemporaries that Don Hutson did.
The 1st great modern pass rusher was Len Ford of the great Browns teams of the 1950s. He is the only DE to play in 6 consecutive NFL championship games (won 3) & he made 3 INTs in those games. In addition, he may have also been the 1st great TE. In 2 seasons in the AAFC (LA Dons) at 6-4 & 245 he caught 67 passes for 1175 yds & 8 TDs. He was absolutely a top 100 player in the 1st 100 NFL years.
Agree he was good, it was hard to find enough tape on him and I hate the NFL didn’t keep stats for defense except INts and Fumble recoveries. I would have liked to see how many sacks he had considering it was a run first league then.
Just Dawned on me about Carl Eller.....he didn't come from the Blind Side.....he was in view, as most QBs are RH....and he was still fast enough to get Home, and make the Sack
I like this list, no complaints here. Excellent blend of old school and modern era. Unfortunately, many that were deserving did not make it, but great job 👍🏿
Reggie White and Willie Davis played for the U. of Tennessee. Each was the 4th player drafted in their NFL draft. Carl Eller (U. of Minnesota) was drafted 5th. Deacon Jones (South Carolina State) was drafted in the 14th round, 166th overall. Bubba Smith (Michigan State) was the 1st player drafted. Julus Peppers (U. of North Carolina) was the 2nd player drafted. Others: J.J. Watt (Central Michigan and U. of Wisconsin) - 11th; Jack Youngblood (U. of Florida) - 20th; Michael Strahan (Texas Southern) - 40th; and Jason Taylor (Akron) - 73rd.
I remember here in Buffalo when Reggie White left Philly and before he signed with the Packers. There was talk of him coming to Buffalo. Can you imagine Smith and White playing together in their primes?
When the USFL folded and Reggie White became available, Bill Belichick (DC for the Giants at that time) tried to talk Bill Parcells into signing White for the Giants. The late 1980s Super Bowls would have looked a lot different had White and LT were paired together.
Charles Haley was 5 time super bowl champion. I don't know how you can leave him off this list and there is no doubt he was a big part of getting those teams there and winning those super bowls. Julius Peppers was great but not better than Richard Dent.
Yes, if anyone loses out on this list it’s Marchetti, it was a tough one for me and maybe he should have made it before Davis or even Jason Taylor. There are a lot of great DE’s. I spent the weekend researching middle linebackers and watched a lot of tape, some other guys like the Giants Andy Robustelli and da Bears Doug Atkins really stood out as well.
@@Whodeysportscards As much as I hate to say it, I would have to replace Youngblood with Marchetti, as Marchetti was a more dominant player. I could also replace Taylor and Watt with Atkins and Dent, respectively. The others I mentioned would have to be Honorable Mentions, but very close to the Top 10 list, as would Youngblood, Watt, and Taylor.
Where would Howie Long & Bubba Smith rank? I agree that Reggie White is the best Defensive End ever. I would imagine every single one on this list is most likely in the Hall of Fame but I think you need to take a closer look at Howie Long & Bubba Smith.
I would have Howie in my top 15. I loved Bubba in the Police Academy, but football wise his career was just too short and he only made 1 all-pro team with no Hall of Fame either.
Jones was known for the head slap as noted below, but that was a truly an unfair practice because the offensive tackle had no equivalent and any retaliation wld nt be tolerated.
No Chris Doleman? Doleman had 150.5 sacks, 44 forced fumbles, 24 recovered fumbles and was an 8 time Pro Bowler, a first-team All-Pro in 1987, 1989 and 1992 and a member of The Hall of Fame.
Sorry pal. Your list is skewed. Deacon belongs at the top. And where is Gino Marchetti? Reggie & Bruce are great but by the time they came along the league had gone pass happy. If Jones could've played from `85 until 2000, he probably would've had over 300.
That’s fair, it’s always hard to debate older players for modern ones, you could also say if Reggie White had played back in the 60-70’s he could have single handedly wrecked the league against the tiny Oline back then. Overall, he’s one of the greatest, I agree!
@@Whodeysportscards Thanks for the response and I apologize for sounding snippy. Let's agree they were the best at the time they played. Reggie would've had a field day but remember, Jones was 6- 5 and 275. Freakish for that era. Keep them coming. I am subscribed.
@@robertdavis4386also offensive linemen could hold on every play in the 80s while in the 60s-70s all they could do is shove or put their hands together- elbows out
Hey, no worries. I was hoping these list drives some good debate. I will admit I grew up in the 80’s/90’s so there might be a little bias. But these comments are making me do much better research on the next positions I do and I’m learning quite a bit about these old timers. Different era, but many of these older guys were just plane nasty. I will have MLB’s up next, I think you will be happier with that list except who’s not listed at #1! Thanks for the commentary, keep it coming!
@@KennethHults-xo3yr I forgot to tell you about Ed Sprinkle from the 1950,'s. His go to move was to clothesline the ball carrier. The equivalent of Ty Cobb when it cam to dirty tricks.
J.J. Watt was a 3-time NFL Defensive PLAYER of the year. I believe he deserved a higher ranking. AND NO GINO MARCHETTI? He was the blueprint for consistent edge pressure. Doug Atkins as well.
Agree with you on Marchetti and maybe even Atkins. It’s just so difficult to find room for all these guys. I could see removing Taylor for Marchetti, and maybe moving Watt up some, but I don’t see him as top 5.
I can name multiple DE's (not in any particular order ) who are all better than Taylor, Peppers & Keeley. 1. Harvey Martin Dallas Cowboys. 2. Charles Haley Dallas Cowboys & SF 49ers. 3. Ed "Too Tall" Jones Dallas Cowboys. 4. Dexter Manley Wash Redskins. 5. Charles Mann Wash Redskins. 6. L.C. Greenwood Pitts Steelers. 7. Curtis White Pitts Steelers. 8. Merlen Olsen L.A. Rams 9. Richard Dent Chi Bears & 49ers 10. Gino Marcherlli Balt Colts 11. Chris Doleman Minn Vikings 12. Jim Marshall Minn Vikings And I'm sure I missed many others as well who deserve to be mentioned.
The reason I put him there was that Deacon was fortunate enough to play with a top 3 DT in Merlin Olsen, I'm sure that created a lot of mismatches. I feel like Smith and White were one man wrecking crews! White had a great Dline with the Eagles, but his career went to another level with the Packers. Smith had Ted Washington and Phil Hansen, decent players but not HoFamers like Olsen.....
TOP TEN Defensive ends , get off sacks as you know stats are not everything . Ok , that being said 12 -14 games rules have changed till now you , can't recognize the games we know . Top 20-30 would be more right . Doug Atkins , Gino Marchetti , Len Ford in Jim Brown's book "Off my Chest" said Lenny and Gino was . Jim Marshall , John Randle , and the nfl as it is now is unwatchable > I watch the games of THE GOLDEN ERA , and if its not the 60's ,then go dig yourself , add some more talking heads ,like every game is the SB ! And please show and break down every play ,like we only know what you nice paycheck goobs tells us .Don't blame the ex-players , get all you can and a little eye -candy .
No Cedric Hardman? Watch any 49 game from the first half of the 70s and you’ll see Cedric Hardman camped out in the offensive backfield. He was a relentless beast.
Just the opposite of your MLB video you omitted a couple of players from the 50's and 60's like Gino Marchetti and Doug Atkins. Id trade either with Youngblood and i personally think Strahan is rated to high
@Whodeysportscards fair point, but the sack was never counted as a stat in his day. So how do they measure other DE's worth from the same Era? This is a guy who had 4 sacks in a SB vs a decent cowboys team and was one of two dominant figures on a great defensive line for a decade. That's why I'm a confused about his continued exclusion. If the voters are excluding him because he had an all-time great next to him, then why are Ham and Lambert both in the hall?
Hard to fit all those guys in the top 10. I have Olsen as DT in that video. I probably should have had Marchetti on this list though as a 7 time all-pro. I really like the footage of Doug Atkins I watched as well, dude was a giant!
Deacon Jones also was responsible for the head slap being outlawed. But the NFL waited until he retired to put in the rule. He also had 22 sack, 22 sack and 21.5 sack seasons in 14 game seasons. He was one bad man.
Coined the term sack.
Ed "too tall" Jones definitely should have made the list. Besides sacks and dropping running backs for a lose. How many passes were batted down or intercepted.
NO HOF WHAT A JOKE
@@charleslee1644agree. Too Tall belongs in. No doubt
Only 1 all-pro and no Hall of Fame. Although, he probably deserves to be in the HoF over Howie Long
@@Whodeysportscards aw that HOF just puts people in because they are A** kissers. It's political just like every thing else is. I pay as much attention to the HOF as I would a dog across the street. Banning Pete Rose from the baseball HOF shows me that if certain people don't like you, it's not going to happen. That goes for the NFL, NBA, MLB. They all the same
Signed; Ed 'Too Tall' Jones Jr.
other guys I can think of, Charles Haley, Doug Atkins, Richard Dent
Yes, all good ones. The biggest name I left off (had him at 11) was Gino Marchetti. The ones you mentioned are more in the 11-20 range most likely
I just watched some highlight on Doug Atkins, that guy was a beast. He made the other players look like kids on the field!
@@WhodeysportscardsAnother video is all it takes.
@@WhodeysportscardsDoug Atkins was a giant among men. He could play & excel in today's game
@@Whodeysportscards I must have seen the same highlights years ago, because I still feel he was one of the very best
No Gino Marchetti? What a joke.
Yeah, he was the toughest one to leave off!
Big mistake
Gino the Giant was named the greatest defensive end of the NFL’s first 50 years. Deacon Jones himself said that he got his pass rush moves from Gino. Gino should be on this list.
Gino the first and the best period!
Not having Gino Marchetti on this list reflects a complete lack of understanding how the NFL game has changed over the decades. Players need to be judged against his contemporaries. Gino Marchetti was the most dominant defensive lineman during the 1950s and early 1960s. In 1972 the Pro Football HOF called Gino the greatest DE in pro football history. And yet he gets left off this list.
To illustrate my point further, take Don Hutson an end who played for Green Bay from 1935 to 1945. Arguably, he is the greatest pass receiver in NFL history and few can tell you who he is. Why? He played before TVs were available and there is little game film remaining from that era. He amassed 8000 yds receiving, 88 touchdowns, 488 receptions and was on the All NFL team nine times all the while playing both ways. His records were not surpassed until three decades after he retired. How dominant was Don Hutson? The only other end in the HOF who was a contemporary of Don Hutson was Wayne Milner. Hid stats: 1800 yds receiving, 12 TDs and 124 receptions. Don Hutson had 4x the receiving yds of his nearest competitor. Even Jerry Rice, who I consider the modern GOAT receiver shows that kind of dominance over his contemporaries that Don Hutson did.
The 1st great modern pass rusher was Len Ford of the great Browns teams of the 1950s. He is the only DE to play in 6 consecutive NFL championship games (won 3) & he made 3 INTs in those games. In addition, he may have also been the 1st great TE. In 2 seasons in the AAFC (LA Dons) at 6-4 & 245 he caught 67 passes for 1175 yds & 8 TDs. He was absolutely a top 100 player in the 1st 100 NFL years.
Agree he was good, it was hard to find enough tape on him and I hate the NFL didn’t keep stats for defense except INts and Fumble recoveries. I would have liked to see how many sacks he had considering it was a run first league then.
Agree, no Gino's Marchetti, not only a joke, but disgraceful
a lot of these sacks would probably be flagged for roughing the quarterback nowadays
#87 Willie Davis had at least 120 sacks in his 10 seasons with the Green Bay Packers.
Just Dawned on me about Carl Eller.....he didn't come from the Blind Side.....he was in view, as most QBs are RH....and he was still fast enough to get Home, and make the Sack
Ha, good point. Just seeing him round the corner in their face probably made them have a bowel movement….
@@Whodeysportscards Purple People Eaters... SKOLL.....and I root for the Lions....m screw GB and Da Bears!
I like this list, no complaints here. Excellent blend of old school and modern era. Unfortunately, many that were deserving did not make it, but great job 👍🏿
Ed "Too Tall" Jones. He transformed the defensive end position.
AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE HOF
How about the iron man, Jim Marshall?
Played a long time, but no all-pro selections and no HoF, just can’t get him in the top 10…
Gino Marchetti, Doug Atkins, Charles Haley
Julius Peppers and Jason Taylor but not Harvey Martin and Gino Marchetti?
Reggie White and Willie Davis played for the U. of Tennessee. Each was the 4th player drafted in their NFL draft. Carl Eller (U. of Minnesota) was drafted 5th. Deacon Jones (South Carolina State) was drafted in the 14th round, 166th overall. Bubba Smith (Michigan State) was the 1st player drafted. Julus Peppers (U. of North Carolina) was the 2nd player drafted. Others: J.J. Watt (Central Michigan and U. of Wisconsin) - 11th; Jack Youngblood (U. of Florida) - 20th; Michael Strahan (Texas Southern) - 40th; and Jason Taylor (Akron) - 73rd.
I remember here in Buffalo when Reggie White left Philly and before he signed with the Packers. There was talk of him coming to Buffalo. Can you imagine Smith and White playing together in their primes?
great list btw
That would have been crazy! Bills had a pretty solid defense, but having White surely would have put them over the top!
Thank you!
When the USFL folded and Reggie White became available, Bill Belichick (DC for the Giants at that time) tried to talk Bill Parcells into signing White for the Giants. The late 1980s Super Bowls would have looked a lot different had White and LT were paired together.
Charles Haley was 5 time super bowl champion. I don't know how you can leave him off this list and there is no doubt he was a big part of getting those teams there and winning those super bowls. Julius Peppers was great but not better than Richard Dent.
No #89 Gino Marchetti Baltimore Colts make the case great against the run and devastating pass rusher.
Yes, if anyone loses out on this list it’s Marchetti, it was a tough one for me and maybe he should have made it before Davis or even Jason Taylor. There are a lot of great DE’s. I spent the weekend researching middle linebackers and watched a lot of tape, some other guys like the Giants Andy Robustelli and da Bears Doug Atkins really stood out as well.
This list definitely needs Gino Marchetti, Doug Atkins, Rich Jackson, Elvin Bethea, Howie Long, and Richard Dent.
Who would you remove then?
That would make the list somewhat longer than ten.
@@Whodeysportscards As much as I hate to say it, I would have to replace Youngblood with Marchetti, as Marchetti was a more dominant player. I could also replace Taylor and Watt with Atkins and Dent, respectively. The others I mentioned would have to be Honorable Mentions, but very close to the Top 10 list, as would Youngblood, Watt, and Taylor.
Oooh, dude coming in with a 'Tombstone' Jackson reference,
Where would Howie Long & Bubba Smith rank? I agree that Reggie White is the best Defensive End ever. I would imagine every single one on this list is most likely in the Hall of Fame but I think you need to take a closer look at Howie Long & Bubba Smith.
I would have Howie in my top 15. I loved Bubba in the Police Academy, but football wise his career was just too short and he only made 1 all-pro team with no Hall of Fame either.
I'd consider Howie to really be a DT ,not really DE
Richard Dent belongs on the list.
Nice list.
Glad you think so!
Jones was known for the head slap as noted below, but that was a truly an unfair practice because the offensive tackle had no equivalent and any retaliation wld nt be tolerated.
Could be a lot of others on this list as well. Good list the minister of defense Reggie White belongs at the top I fully agree with that.
Gino Marchetti belongs in the top 10
Gino marketi and charles halley
Perfect list. Would not change a spot.
Youngblood playing with a broken leg is remarkable.
Now do 11 thru 20
Will do, working on MLB’s next and the number 1 spot will surprise many!
It was non weight bearing bone
@@damien5138 Do u happen to know which bone it is? I cannot seem to locate that info.
yes,your comment shows how many true great ones there were
No Chris Doleman? Doleman had 150.5 sacks, 44 forced fumbles, 24 recovered fumbles and was an 8 time Pro Bowler, a first-team All-Pro in 1987, 1989 and 1992 and a member of The Hall of Fame.
I know, there are so many great ones that were on the outside looking in, Marchetti and Doleman being 2.
He’s a great player, no doubt. Just too many great sack artists to fit them all in the top 10!
That is a joke he was one of the greatest.
Sorry pal. Your list is skewed. Deacon belongs at the top. And where is Gino Marchetti? Reggie & Bruce are great but by the time they came along the league had gone pass happy. If
Jones could've played from `85 until 2000, he probably would've had over 300.
That’s fair, it’s always hard to debate older players for modern ones, you could also say if Reggie White had played back in the 60-70’s he could have single handedly wrecked the league against the tiny Oline back then. Overall, he’s one of the greatest, I agree!
@@Whodeysportscards Thanks for the response and I apologize for sounding snippy. Let's agree they were the best at the time they played. Reggie would've had a field day but remember, Jones was 6- 5 and 275. Freakish for that era. Keep them coming. I am subscribed.
@@robertdavis4386also offensive linemen could hold on every play in the 80s while in the 60s-70s all they could do is shove or put their hands together- elbows out
Hey, no worries. I was hoping these list drives some good debate. I will admit I grew up in the 80’s/90’s so there might be a little bias. But these comments are making me do much better research on the next positions I do and I’m learning quite a bit about these old timers. Different era, but many of these older guys were just plane nasty. I will have MLB’s up next, I think you will be happier with that list except who’s not listed at #1! Thanks for the commentary, keep it coming!
@@KennethHults-xo3yr I forgot to tell you about Ed Sprinkle from the 1950,'s. His go to move was to clothesline the ball carrier. The equivalent of Ty Cobb when it cam to dirty tricks.
Ed “Too Tall” Jones
J.J. Watt was a 3-time NFL Defensive PLAYER of the year. I believe he deserved a higher ranking. AND NO GINO MARCHETTI? He was the blueprint for consistent edge pressure. Doug Atkins as well.
Agree with you on Marchetti and maybe even Atkins. It’s just so difficult to find room for all these guys. I could see removing Taylor for Marchetti, and maybe moving Watt up some, but I don’t see him as top 5.
Most likely just the ones since (maybe) 1980.
That's a guess without watching it yet.
I can name multiple DE's (not in any particular order ) who are all better than Taylor, Peppers & Keeley.
1. Harvey Martin Dallas Cowboys.
2. Charles Haley Dallas Cowboys & SF 49ers.
3. Ed "Too Tall" Jones Dallas Cowboys.
4. Dexter Manley Wash Redskins.
5. Charles Mann Wash Redskins.
6. L.C. Greenwood Pitts Steelers.
7. Curtis White Pitts Steelers.
8. Merlen Olsen L.A. Rams
9. Richard Dent Chi Bears & 49ers
10. Gino Marcherlli Balt Colts
11. Chris Doleman Minn Vikings
12. Jim Marshall Minn Vikings
And I'm sure I missed many others as well who deserve to be mentioned.
I'm surprised that Smith was #2. Most times Deacon is ahead of him.
The reason I put him there was that Deacon was fortunate enough to play with a top 3 DT in Merlin Olsen, I'm sure that created a lot of mismatches. I feel like Smith and White were one man wrecking crews! White had a great Dline with the Eagles, but his career went to another level with the Packers. Smith had Ted Washington and Phil Hansen, decent players but not HoFamers like Olsen.....
Mark Gastineau (NY Sack Exchange)
Jared Allen ( Vikings) !!
Richard Dent
I love him, but he only made 1 all-pro team, hard to put him top 10 in comparison. Definitely top 20 though
Dent.
I have in top 20
You misspelled Richard DENT
Mean joe green
TOP TEN Defensive ends , get off sacks as you know stats are not everything . Ok , that being said 12 -14 games rules have changed till now you , can't recognize the games we know . Top 20-30 would be more right . Doug Atkins , Gino Marchetti , Len Ford in Jim Brown's book "Off my Chest" said Lenny and Gino was . Jim Marshall , John Randle , and the nfl as it is now is unwatchable > I watch the games of THE GOLDEN ERA , and if its not the 60's ,then go dig yourself , add some more talking heads ,like every game is the SB ! And please show and break down every play ,like we only know what you nice paycheck goobs tells us .Don't blame the ex-players , get all you can and a little eye -candy .
Fair points, I’m adding more research into these future positions I’m posting. You will see it in the MLB video, although you may not like the top 3!
No Cedric Hardman? Watch any 49 game from the first half of the 70s and you’ll see Cedric Hardman camped out in the offensive backfield. He was a relentless beast.
Howie long was a D tackle
Just the opposite of your MLB video you omitted a couple of players from the 50's and 60's like Gino Marchetti and Doug Atkins. Id trade either with Youngblood and i personally think Strahan is rated to high
Michael Strahan and Jason Taylor should not be ranked ahead of JJ Watt! Deacon Jones is the GREATEST Defensive End ever!
Doug Atkins deserves to be here. Deacon Jones the best. Gino Marchetti and Jim Marshall as well
Why is LC Greenwood so overlooked?
He just doesn’t quite seem to have the stats as the other guys
@Whodeysportscards fair point, but the sack was never counted as a stat in his day. So how do they measure other DE's worth from the same Era? This is a guy who had 4 sacks in a SB vs a decent cowboys team and was one of two dominant figures on a great defensive line for a decade. That's why I'm a confused about his continued exclusion. If the voters are excluding him because he had an all-time great next to him, then why are Ham and Lambert both in the hall?
Where is Gino's Marchetti at
Yeah he was a tough one, I had him just outside my top 10 at 11.
I believe Reggie White, Deacon Jones and Bruce Smith are the 3 greatest DE. My number 4 is Lee Roy Selmon but he is closer to 10 than 3.
He had a couple of great seasons, he just didn’t seem to play long enough to get the recognition he deserves
No Richard Dent?
Gino Marchetti..
Nomean joe geeen
How is Richard Dent not on this list Super Bowl mvp
Being a Super Bowl MVP doesn't put You on the list of the top 10 defensive ends.
L C Greenwood
Willie Davis at #10?? 🤔
Is that based on you think he should be higher or not in the top 10?
I think a little higher. After all he was the anchor of that Packet defense.
Which player got the MVP in the NFL?
No Richard Seymour or Ty Warren c'mon
That’s fair, just so many good ones to consider!
how about joe greene richard dent and melen olsen your list sucks alan page could have been on there to
I have Joe Greene and Olsen on my top DTs of all time in my other video.
L C
Maybe top 20?
L.C. Greenwood is criminally underappreciated. Why is he not in the Hall of Fame?
Peppers above Strahan? Where's Merlin Olsen/Rosey Grier, Gino Marchetti, Richard Dent/Doug Atkins, L.C. Greenwood/Dwight White, Manny Fernandez,..et al..😢
Hard to fit all those guys in the top 10. I have Olsen as DT in that video. I probably should have had Marchetti on this list though as a 7 time all-pro. I really like the footage of Doug Atkins I watched as well, dude was a giant!
Dexter Manly
1 all-pro team and not in the hall of fame, good player but just not quite worthy enough
97 sacks in 9 seasons for Washington, of which 2 seasons ('82 & '87) were shortened by strikes. That's good enough for me
97 sacks in 9 seasons for Washington, of which 2 seasons ('82 & '87) were shortened by strikes. That's good enough for me