Reviewing the Ortofon LVB 250!
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
- Ortofon produced an upgrade to the 2M Black, and I see if it lives up to the hype. If that's your thing, you've found your place. Welcome to the Vinyl Attack!
0:00 - Intro
2:27 - A Brief Look Back
3:20 - Some Specifics
4:49 - The Upgrades
7:12 - The Sound
10:38 - VS the Hana ML
11:28 - The Considerations
12:53 - In Summation...
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I own the 250 LVB Ortofon Black 2M. I graduated from the 2M Bronze. I am very glad I did as wonderful as the 2M bronze was. My equipment is a Denon PMA 1600 amp., a technics SL1210 GR, an EAT E glo petite for phono preamp and B&W 702 S2’s connected with Audio Quest AWG 12 cable. I also have 2 REL’s R7 subwoofers in the system. Kimble silver cable between the turntable and pre-amp and the pre-amp and the Denon amp. I took the time to describe this so if you are seriously reading this it will offer you a detailed view.
The move to the LVB stylus was well worth it. Soundstage became larger than the bronze, there is much more detail than the bronze and there is NEVER inner groove distortion, which with the bronze it happened occasionally. Although badly pressed records had more to do with it. The timbre and detailed of a mass of strings, as in Beethoven’s 9th, was the best I ever heard out of my 30 yrs old Decca Recording ever. On single voices : they sound more real and intimate.
In sum I made a great decision.
Now the boron cantilever is fragile. You have to handle this cartridge carefully. Boron is more rigid than aluminum but also more susceptible to splitting if you you get sloppy handling the tonearm. I also increased the mass of my tonearm. My thought was, and I was right, a little extra weight at the back would prevent the dog from wagging the tail. So I added the extra weight that came with the SL-1210 GR. -If you know what I mean.- Yes, I also did rebalance the tonearm even though most people might think that just changing the tip would be enough. Come on, we all here take this seriously right? I also use a double slice of blue moon gel over the hesdshell, installed before rebalancing the arm. As a whole all this improvements increased my set up’s ability to benefit from the increased output and energy this cartridge produces. But I am assured the toner arm remains cool and staid in spite of the shibata transmitting all that energy through the boron cantilever up stream. I also confess I also have a K.A.B. Silicone liquid trough at the base of my SL 1210 GR tonearm. And when needed, mostly for bad recorded records, I might bring down a notch the capacitance on the phono preamp. But that is it. This is a dream of a cartridge that being a moving magnet easily positions itself in the echelon of a Hana ML. Which I also own. Although the LVB behaved more daringly, with quicker response which brings a feeling of more immediacy than the beautifully relaxed Hana ML. Last keep your records impecable. If you need info on how to do this let me know. Enjoy!
That is a sick discount code and shipping! Thank you so much.
15% is definitely solid. I'm happy to be a part of this one.
Another great video I love your stuff keep it up
Thanks, will do!
Great review as always Chris! I just love my Hana ML too much to even think of switching to any other cart. That gentle and sweet sound it produces is too addictive to give up!
The Hana is my everyday cart and I too love it's balanced and refined approach to sound. I'm glad I get to tinker with other carts to see what's out there though.
Very informative as always. I appreciate cart reviews as its an expensive upgrade and its difficult to "test" on my own. Also, Go Blue!
I like doing cart reviews for that very reason. It's difficult to audition them without simply purchasing them.
Great review!
Thank you.
Dearborn looks amazing. I feel a Michigan road trip coming on soon.
It's a great store for sure.
Noice episode Chris....excellent.
Thanks.
Another home run video, great insight, I’m with you I’m not trading my Hana m/l but it’s good to keep up with new tech in cases I want to mix it up!
I'm glad you liked it.
Excellent review. I've often wondered about the LVB, though I have long since gone to moving coil. Definitely a fan of Hana. My first moving coil was a Hana SL, and recently I replaced a Rega Apheta 3 with the Hana Umami Red.
How does the Umami compare with the Apheta 3?
I have owned one since April and have thoroughly enjoyed its stereo imaging and fairly neutral presentation. I love my MP-110 but it can seem a tad muddy by comparison even with its bass boost. The LVB 250 is very clear and nothing gets in the way.
Wow and wow.
Nicely done and very informative 👍
Would be interesting if you could compare an Ortofon 2m blue fitted to a Funk Firm Houdini,to a 2m black, then try the Houdini on the black.
Or trying the Houdini on any cartridges you have available.
Here's hoping.
Jim, in Scotland 🏴🙂
I'd love a comparison between the lvb, 2m bronze and hana sl
Sounds like a helluva good cartridge. A bit high in the price range for me though...
I'm currently using a Sumiko Moonstone which is quite fantastic.
Great video!
It is a bit on the expensive side, but worth saving for if one is so inclined.
Dearborn Music!! I remember digging through records there in the 70's when they were at the old location. I'm ashamed I haven't been there in so long and live so close. I'm gonna make a point to visit soon 👍
They're worth the trip.
I’m lucky enough to live in Dearborn and have been shopping at Dearborn Music since I was a kid - about 50 years ago!
One of the reasons I like them is their storied history.
hi Chris, informative video. I usually find Ortofon carts to be very sterile inn sound, although the 2m black is not too cold. I use a Shure V15-Vmrx with a Jico SAS stylus which is also a nude shibata. I compared the LVB 250 against my Shure on my heavily modified 90's Logic Gemini 2 motor belt drive with logic Datum S arm. Found the neutrality of the Shure with the genuine Shure micro ridge stylus and also with the Jico stylus to be a nicer sound than the Ortofon. The LBV was good but not good enough for me. Enjoy the music..
Yeah! Dearborn Music! My home away from home 🥰
It's a great store.
How did this pair with your concept with the aluminum tonearm? The Clearaudio Concept is on my short list, and I am debating the satisfy alum or carbon arm. Thanks for your great work on these reviews!
I have the satisfy black arm, so all the sonic description I gave in the video are referenced from that.
Hi Chris - thanks for the discount code for Dearborn Music. Scored 15% discount on the new Silversun Pickups 2LP Violet edition, REM's Chronic Town EP, and an oldie but goodie - War Greatest Hits. Cheers!
I'm very happy you were able to make use of it. They're a great store and I'm excited to have them onboard as a sponsor.
Hey Chris, really enjoy you channel. Little off topic maybe is missed it, I was wondering if you ever did a review of the EAT E-Glo Petit phono stage, if not, any Idea when it might be reviewed, thanks for you work, stay well
I haven't yet. I've been so busy with manufacturer reviews (which are on a time table) that I haven't had a chance. I'll get there though.
@@thevinylattack Thanks for the reply, look forward to your review, enjoy the day.
I buy online at Dearborn all the time, fast shipping, always packaged well. I Have the Ortofon Black on My VPI Scout and my Technics 1500c I very satisfied with the sound.
I've only heard the regular Black in passing, but I'd be interested to hear how it compares to the LVB variant.
Im using the 2m black. Wondering whats the diference between 2mblack and lvb250😊
Haven't been to Dearborn Music but we have some very nice independent stores in the Saginaw/Bay City/Midland area.
I was just there today. No kidding.
Nice. I do wonder how this would stack up compared to the Sumiko Songbird MC HO I’m considering. Even the High Output on that thing equals 2.5mv, exactly HALF of that LVB Black
While Sumiko makes some really good stuff, I feel like the higher tracking force and aluminum cantilever might make it a little less agile. Of course, that doesn't mean it would sound worse. Just different.
Thanks Chris
An excellent video on the new Or to con Cartridge. In my mind it brought up this question, what type of alignment protractor do you prefer? Do you like a mirrored protractor, or a plastic one? Or is the Mofi Geo-Disc you weapon of choice?
I use a mirrored protractor called the WallyTractor from WAM Engineering (wallyanalog.com). It's by far the best protractor I've ever used.
@@thevinylattack Or to con is my autoincorrect's way of spelling "Ortofon".
@@thevinylattack I looked at the WallyTractor on the website. There is an Ouch! factor to it's price. Yet I like the way it helps calculate overhang, alignment and the tonearm arc for vinyl pressings of different eras. I just spent close to $400.00 on a new turntable, so a WallyTractor, for me, is a bit out of the budget. Could you detail the proper use of a WallyTractor on a future video?
@@Vince_Tasciotti It's definitely not a cheap tool, but it's a tool you only buy once (provided you take care of it). I'm working on a video, but it's just so damn hard to film.
There was a thread on the Hoffman forums a while back where someone investigated the frequency response of the 2m black and found it needed a much lower impedance than 47K, ideally around 33K. I set my preamp to 33K/100pF and indeed it did tame the unwanted brashness the 2m bronze and black suffer from as it flattened the curve and took away the sonic bump in the upper mids that 47K gave.
Do you happen to know if the LVB requires this too? When it comes to replacing my black stylus, the LVB is an option but I am tired of having to "hack" my preamp to get a decent sound from what is a very expensive cartridge! Are you able to try 33K on the LVB (or a normal black for that matter!) to see if it improves the sonic signature of the cartridge? It may also give you a more enjoyable experience as it did for me with my black.
Great video though - again!
I had no issues at 47k, but I did have my gain set to 40db. I'll play around with the impedance a bit today as my phono pre has a few more options below 47k. Thanks for the heads up.
Curious, which turntable did you test the LVB250 ? I was told by Ortofon that VTA adjustment is very important for shibata type of styli.
I used my Clearaudio concept.
does VTA adjustment matter?I don't think Rega even offers VTA adjustment. Unless you have a very short tonearm, moving the back of it up and down is not going to change the stylus angle very much at all. Are you supposed to adjust VTA to compensate for different thickness of each vinyl? I personally cannot hear a difference on my Technics sl 1200 with ortofon 2m black whenever I change the VTA.
Instead of moving up to the 2m bronze from the 2m blue, I went with the VM540ML. Is there much of a step up with the 2m black?
It would definitely be noticeable.
Switched from a Nagaoka mp-150 to an mp200 and boron cantilever makes a big difference.
It really does.
Anyone try this on a VPI Cliffwood? Wondering as the Cliffwood has no option for VTA adjustments.
Per usual your reviews are awesome although a lot of the technical aspects that you understand are way beyond me.
I have a Fluance RT85 with the 2M Blue, a vintage Sansui 661 and Boston Acoustics A200 speakers.
I’d like to upgrade and I’m considering the 2M Black but wonder if this might be better or completely lost on the limitation of my system.
Any thoughts? General commenters who might want to bash my system can simply pass but fair opinions are welcome.
I'm sure you would enjoy the upgrade. Will you be missing something with that setup? Maybe, but it's hard to say. The limitation would probably come from the phono pre-amp.
@@thevinylattack thanks.
I think I’ll jump up to the Black and hold back the $300 for the LVB and maybe can investigate the pre-amp as an upgrade soon.
@@MD-wk3gj Let us all know how it works out for you.
I’m currently using the 2M Bronze but I have the standard 2M Black stylus already. I think the bronze is great. Once it needs replacing later this year I’ll install the black. I’m curious how much of a difference it will be on my system. I’m also curious how the standard black sounds compared to the LVB. Not that I would ever buy the LVB. It’s way overkill for my system.
Let us know what you think of the upgrade.
How have you liked the 2M Bronze? I’m seriously considering the Bronze to replace the OM 10 that came with my table from Pro-Ject. Thanks
@@tamstutz921 I love the Bronze. It’s a huge upgrade from the OM10. You would notice a huge difference going from your elliptical stylus to the Bromze’s fine line. It pulls a lot of information from the grooves. Even upgrading to the 2M blue would be a decent upgrade.
@@quikspecv4d I’ve got the blue and it’s great for the price. I have it on an old Pioneer PL-200 and it’s good until I get a better turntable.
I had the Bronze and switched to the black stylus. . . The bronze is great, but the black has greater detail. Wider sound stage. And a more open overall sound. But. . . It also requires a bit more care in the setup. Had to work a bit harder to get it dialed in. But once I did. . . Marvelous!
Way too much money for a mm. I recently switched from a smoking hot 2m Bronze to an VM95ML and could not be happier. 3.5mv VS 5mv sounds so much better in 'my system'.(2m series carts have been measured over 7mv in tests). I now get 90% of the bronze performance minus a bit of top end sparkle I got from the bronze for so much less. All this is being said to illustrate the point that you don't need to spend huge cash for great cartridges. Great vid brother, thanks for sharing!
$40 Audio Technica ep311 cartridge on my 30-year-old rack system Technics turntable is what started me down the rabbit hole. If I could not have afforded more I would have been happy. I now own 2m black, Audio Technica 440 MLB, and recently purchased ortofon om40 with Fritz Geiger 70 stylus. Curious about moving iron Zephyr from sound Smith but it is high dollar. Very happy with what I currently have.
@@Drivehead103 that's some of the fun of this hobby is experimenting. So much is subjective and you gotta try stuff until you find what 'you' like.
I'd have been hesitant to spend that kind of money on a moving magnet myself, until I heard this one.
I’ve had the 2m red and the 2m blue which I’m using currently. I’m Very very happy with the Blue. I’ve heard that any Ortofon stylus above the Blue is not forgiving with less than perfect near mint/mint records. Even though most of my records Are at least near mint, I don’t want a cartridge that’s gonna emphasize surface noise. And for Me, no cartridge on the planet is worth a thousand bucks. I’ll stick with my Blue. Its impressive enough.
You heard wrong. At least in my opinion.
11:50 What does ‘run hot’ mean? I’m new to vinyl and record players. Thank you in advance for your help.
It's a very high output cartridge that can be a bit much if you don't adjust your phono stage properly.
Yikes! I’ll stick with my Shure V15vxmr. and it’s beryllium cantilever. I’ve an OEM replacement stylus waiting when needed. I figure I’m good for another 1500 hours. The all time tracking super star. Thanks for the vid, Chris.
Thanks for watching!
Had the V15T3HE and V15T5MR both stock, and very much prefer the T3HE, that was 20;years ago, I'm still with type 3.
I'm a little late to this party, but I got a Grado Prestige Gold for my Dual TT, and it was a night and day improvement from stock. The Prestige series is MM and usually $2-300. I see that you haven't reviewed any Grado carts based on my quick check. Would you be interested in checking mine out? I'd be interested in your feedback to assist with educating my ears
While I'd be happy to review Grado products, I don't like to be responsible for viewers' equipment. I appreciate the offer, however.
Run hot? Did you need more or less impedanceo the pre amp?
I ran it at a standard 47k, but I did have the gain lowered all the way to 40db.
I have the same issue with it as someone else already pointed out - too expensive for a MM cart, I'm afraid. Replaceable styli aren't really a pro anymore when they cost €750 and the whole cart is €900 (west EU prices). You can get an MC retipped for less.
Depending on where you buy it, the LVB is actually almost as expensive as the Quintet Black S with a nude Shibata on sapphire cantilever!
People seem to be stuck on MM always being worse that MC. I can say for certain that that's not the case. This cart will hold its own with MC carts in the same price range for sure.
@@thevinylattack I think it really depends, in my experience MM was indeed always worse than pretty much any MC. I've had 2M Red, Blue, VM740ML and a few other MM's and they always were unnatural, hot and brash sounding. However as always YMMV.
@@puciohenzap891 Those are fairly low-end carts though. When you move up a bit, things start to change.
I'm currently using the Ortofon 2M Blue and feel the need to leave a comment to "defend it". I've found that "a mid-range audiophile balance" for me includes the Blue. Now do I dream about even better cartridges? Yes. I dream about dropping $1k on the LVB. But have I been nearly 100% happy with it in my system? Yes! The Blue has served me well for 2+ years. It brings the boogie! I'm using it in an all tube system with Cornwalls. Classic Rock is my Bread and Butter. Is there a little distortion here and there? Yes, but it's a great cartridge which has given me and my friends many hours of happy listening. So if you're out there and can't drop a grand on a cartridge maybe the Blue is for you. One last thing... my tube phono can't handle a low output MC without a step up so they're kind of a non-starter.
Thanks for all your videos by the way VA!
Lots of people like the Blue. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just not for me.
Well, it is a given that $1000 for a phono cart is far too much for me especially when the fact that my 3 turntables are all vintage 1971 to 1985ish and certainly don't have adjustable VTA. That said, I run a Ortofon 2M Bronze on my Denon DP47f. Setting up that cart on that table is, well, not for the faint of heart as that cart is really pushing the envelope of what that tonearm can handle. After an hour or more of sweat equity though, I finally got it. I like the detailed sound thanks to the nude fine line stylus (of course the fact that while I only have used original pressings dating back to the late 50s forward, I get all the detail and staging as I hear when I listen, or course having a very nice phono preamp is mandatory to that as well. $400 - $500 is about as much as I care to spend on a phono cart given the circumstances, so I won't get to play with the 2M Black or the LVB, but I also don't honestly think I would hear a difference between that and the 2M Bronze.
You would definitely hear a difference. Of course, that doesn't mean you need to run right out and get one either.
Hi , I am sort of new to your hi-fi canal, People who listen to their vinyl on very expensive record decks don’t seem to mind when they’re Stylus comes to the end of the record and obviously just sits there in the groove, Why hasn’t there been any body produce a Tone Arm that’s when it finishes playing it lifts off the record, As it seems to defeat the object of going out and spending very high end money on styluses records just to have your stylus continually running round your record how do you get up and switch it off, I noticed that there seems to be a few little mechanisms that you can buy but look a bit cheap and tacky, But do you do the job.
PHIL FROM THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOULIN FRANCE
There are several fully automatic turntables on the market that do what you're describing, as well as some quality tonearm lifts that you mount separately.
I am surprised the reviewer mentions nothing about tonearm mass and what is optimal for this cartridge. Not only is adjustable pillar height desireable with any Shibata stylus, too high a tonearm mass can cause bottoming on record warps with this highly compliant model. Phono players are highly responsive to a "systems" approach, matching mechanical parameters like arm mass, cartridge compliance, VTA, and tracking force with electronic factors like preamp gain, capacitive loading (for MMs) and desired tonal balance. My LVB wasn't such a great match for me. I'm back to an old Van den Hul MC-10 and preferring it...Thorens TD1600, PhonoBox DS3, w/AQ Mackenzie XLR.
Killer
Nice review. I'd love to hear it myself, but it's way to rich for my blood. That said, pretty much every Ortofon cart I've ever heard has been fatiguing to my ears and I simply hate the always popular 2M Red and Blue. Yes, a "too hot" cart can indeed be a problem, as the gain settings on many phono preamps are all simply too high for a 5mv+ cart.
I can understand that. I had the gain on my pre-amp down at 40. That worked quite well for me.
Now I have to spend $1000. Thanks.
No problem ;-)
12:40 Everyone knows which brand you mean, so just say it. *It's Rega*
Even their more expensive models don't have any VTA adjustment.
Rega isn't the only table that does this. That's why I didn't mention a name. I don't want to make list of turntables in the middle of a review.
@@thevinylattack Fair point. Rega is just by far the most well known and most common example.
@@QoraxAudio Certainly.
@@QoraxAudio🙄
Sorry but the Super OM40 is much better than the 2M Black LVB 250. The stylus is the difference as the Geiger is superior to the Shibata almost regardless of the mounting. The black went back. If Ortofon had the guts, they would put a Geiger S stylus on the LVB250 and it would also wipe out much of their moving coil cartridge sales as well
Interesting.
So wrong.
Be excellent to each other