Nothing quite like procrastinating on writing exposition dialog by watching a video on how to write good dialog and realizing that my exposition dialog needs a lot more work than I thought. I suppose it's not that bad now but it's been a lot of rewriting to get to this stage and I still feel like it's boring and too focused on worldbuilding despite there being multiple conflicts throughout it. It's so difficult to set up for future pay offs with worldbuilding, foreshadowing, etc while still ensuring the present reading experience is enjoyable to the reader. It feels like I'm playing 5D chess with time travel just to get something passable, nevermind actually good. The only approach I've really figured out works okay for that is to merge any worldbuilding, foreshadowing, etc text with some current event that the reader is already interested in. Like in that Council of Elrond scene, the reader/viewer cares about the fate of the ring, and in the process learns who Aragon is, that dwarves and elves dislike each other, that the ring needs to be taken to Mordor to get destroyed, that Boromir will want to take the ring, and so on. But writing that can be exceptionally difficult. It's so much easier to give a simple exposition and foreshadowing dump without really working it into the current scene.
David Eddings fell into the "Repetition without purpose" trap with his novels, to the point where after the first two series' of his (Belgariad and Malloreon) it was like "ok, that was annoying but whatever, good story" Then with the Elenium and Tamuli, he used similar repeated dialogue as from the other series, which made the universe seem less unique and more like just a continuation of what he'd previously written. The world itself was different enough from the first one that I was like "that was painful to read but at least it's over" Then with the Dreamers series, he did THE SAME THING, and now had every person from every country in that series, including the people from the uncontacted lands that everyone is just meeting for the first time start doing it, and I was done. It felt so stupid and pointless, like he was giving us the wink and nod and going "eh? eh?" and actually made me a little mad, that someone who can write this poorly has a ton of bestsellers. I had a very sour taste for fantasy after that, took a while for me to get back into it with Modesitt's Imager Portfolio (excellent series btw).
In his defence, in Malloreon one of the characters point out how the the plot is repeating itself from the Belgariad because the 'creator' lacks imagination.
I'll try to apply... Marie could feel her stomach rising in her throat, her entire body weak and her eyes watery. She saw steps she could recognize walking towards her. Standing to all her height, she said: "Go away." He didn't seem to understand, and as he came closer she could see he took a few sessions of his own. There was the hand she broke in an attempt at self-defense, now all wrapped in bandages. " mi mnéum Dlavi, rodoae stiiditer." (You gave/harmed my hand, miss human (litterally translates to "steppe person")) "Iir fizô" (I'm not angry). he said, his tone calm, almost apologetic. "Anyways, who are you and why have you brought me here ?" Suddenly, she couldn't take the nausea anymore, and after a cough so strong it made her entire body, inside and out to shake, she expelled the content of her stomach onto the cavern floor. As she catched her breath, she felt a hand gently holding her by the hair before stepping back. She could observe as he wrote something onto a clay tablet. "Iir fizes, rodoae stiiditer, lriae a taae dlaméus." (I'm sorry/don't be angry, miss human, I'll give you water.) After saying those words she couldn't understand, but the tone seemed apologetic, although it had a childlike quality to it, he left, only to come back with a large jug. He put it onto a clean spot of her cage, and carefully allowed her to inspect it. Marie soon recognized it was just clean water. She took a tentative sip, knowing she'll likely vomit it before it had time to quench her thirst. He took it out of her mouth delicatly and put it back to clean ground. He pointed to the inside and made a sound of deglution. "Lri" he said. Must it mean: "water" ?
Your contrasting examples from GoT... Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the good example was drawn from earlier in the series, when they were still working off Mr. Martin's material, while the later example was from after that material ran out. If so, some Hollywood writer wrote the weak speech, or else Dan and Dave did so themselves. My wife and I got off the GoT show train at the Red Wedding. I believe that scene was modified from what it is in the book, too. Bad writing drives away parts of the audience. I found your list of examples of what not to do crisp and pithy. The work you are putting into your videos is reflected in their increasing quality. Thanks again.
Thank you for the kind words - I'm glad to see that my effort is showing :) In regards to the GoT examples, the funeral speech by Jon Snow is from Season 8 Episode 4, so quite late in the series, yes. Tyrion Lannister's trial is from Season 4, so definitely an earlier season, yes. And I wouldn't be surprised either, if your reasoning holds a lot of the truth either. There have been many instances in recent years (I'm looking at you Netflix and the Witcher) where Hollywood butchered amazing stories because they ignored the source material.
@@TheTaleTinkerer One visual thing that I have noticed, which makes me curious, is the way your face behaves while you speak. The wrinkles on the right side of your face are larger and deeper, and they dimple harder while you talk, especially during more emotionally intense points. So it makes me curious as to whether you ever had a face injury. One of my children suffered Lyme Disease from an undiscovered tick bite several years ago, and one side of her face became temporarily paralyzed (Bell's Palsy.) She made a full recovery, but through that, I learned about celebrities who had had this issue, some of whom did not make a 100% recovery, who had lingering effects, which led their faces to behave similar to the way yours does when you speak. Or maybe it's just a character trait for you, with no known cause. I don't see it as a problem for you, but the difference between the sides is so consistent, I can't help noticing when I am watching (as opposed to just listening). Thanks again for your efforts and insights.
@@TheTaleTinkerer Thanks for the answer. I don't think it's a lighting effect. Just a facial character trait, then, or perhaps an artifact of your speaking style. ... When it comes to writing, I'm told by some that I have a strength in dialogue and characterization. I've learned a lot more about scene structure recently, but still in the process of putting that knowledge into action. I feel like there's a line past where too much attention to the physics and mechanics of writing can cross over into becoming predictable, losing authenticity, or moving into manipulating readers rather than entertaining or enlightening them. Too little is worse, though. Then you're just amateur. Have you ever pulled back on technique? (Because you found it starting to harm your work rather than to serve it?) Thanks again.
@@robertthomas6363 I often tend to re-learn theory because I prefer to learn it subconciously. While I have periods of deep studying every now and then (with the channel here now obviously a bit more heavily), I try to not get hung up on theory. Writing is still a creative process. It's important to understand the basics, yes, and knowing a lot of the more advanced details can help as well. But in the end, there are successful exceptions for every rule. People like what they like, not what theory dictates they should like. So first and foremost for me is staying true to my own style. If I like reading it, then its a good step for me since I see myself as part of my target audience :)
Nothing quite like procrastinating on writing exposition dialog by watching a video on how to write good dialog and realizing that my exposition dialog needs a lot more work than I thought. I suppose it's not that bad now but it's been a lot of rewriting to get to this stage and I still feel like it's boring and too focused on worldbuilding despite there being multiple conflicts throughout it.
It's so difficult to set up for future pay offs with worldbuilding, foreshadowing, etc while still ensuring the present reading experience is enjoyable to the reader. It feels like I'm playing 5D chess with time travel just to get something passable, nevermind actually good. The only approach I've really figured out works okay for that is to merge any worldbuilding, foreshadowing, etc text with some current event that the reader is already interested in.
Like in that Council of Elrond scene, the reader/viewer cares about the fate of the ring, and in the process learns who Aragon is, that dwarves and elves dislike each other, that the ring needs to be taken to Mordor to get destroyed, that Boromir will want to take the ring, and so on. But writing that can be exceptionally difficult. It's so much easier to give a simple exposition and foreshadowing dump without really working it into the current scene.
Thank you for posting this, it's very helpful.
Yeah, because writing is the next step of any avid reader.
Have your like, good fella.
David Eddings fell into the "Repetition without purpose" trap with his novels, to the point where after the first two series' of his (Belgariad and Malloreon) it was like "ok, that was annoying but whatever, good story"
Then with the Elenium and Tamuli, he used similar repeated dialogue as from the other series, which made the universe seem less unique and more like just a continuation of what he'd previously written. The world itself was different enough from the first one that I was like "that was painful to read but at least it's over"
Then with the Dreamers series, he did THE SAME THING, and now had every person from every country in that series, including the people from the uncontacted lands that everyone is just meeting for the first time start doing it, and I was done. It felt so stupid and pointless, like he was giving us the wink and nod and going "eh? eh?" and actually made me a little mad, that someone who can write this poorly has a ton of bestsellers. I had a very sour taste for fantasy after that, took a while for me to get back into it with Modesitt's Imager Portfolio (excellent series btw).
In his defence, in Malloreon one of the characters point out how the the plot is repeating itself from the Belgariad because the 'creator' lacks imagination.
I'll try to apply...
Marie could feel her stomach rising in her throat, her entire body weak and her eyes watery. She saw steps she could recognize walking towards her. Standing to all her height, she said: "Go away."
He didn't seem to understand, and as he came closer she could see he took a few sessions of his own. There was the hand she broke in an attempt at self-defense, now all wrapped in bandages.
" mi mnéum Dlavi, rodoae stiiditer." (You gave/harmed my hand, miss human (litterally translates to "steppe person")) "Iir fizô" (I'm not angry). he said, his tone calm, almost apologetic.
"Anyways, who are you and why have you brought me here ?"
Suddenly, she couldn't take the nausea anymore, and after a cough so strong it made her entire body, inside and out to shake, she expelled the content of her stomach onto the cavern floor. As she catched her breath, she felt a hand gently holding her by the hair before stepping back. She could observe as he wrote something onto a clay tablet.
"Iir fizes, rodoae stiiditer, lriae a taae dlaméus." (I'm sorry/don't be angry, miss human, I'll give you water.)
After saying those words she couldn't understand, but the tone seemed apologetic, although it had a childlike quality to it, he left, only to come back with a large jug. He put it onto a clean spot of her cage, and carefully allowed her to inspect it. Marie soon recognized it was just clean water. She took a tentative sip, knowing she'll likely vomit it before it had time to quench her thirst. He took it out of her mouth delicatly and put it back to clean ground. He pointed to the inside and made a sound of deglution. "Lri" he said.
Must it mean: "water" ?
Excellent!
Check out this playlist for more storytelling and fantasy writing advice: ua-cam.com/play/PLDpOcpMPZP3D-KapKbtwA5mjPlEon9rad.html
Your contrasting examples from GoT... Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe the good example was drawn from earlier in the series, when they were still working off Mr. Martin's material, while the later example was from after that material ran out. If so, some Hollywood writer wrote the weak speech, or else Dan and Dave did so themselves. My wife and I got off the GoT show train at the Red Wedding. I believe that scene was modified from what it is in the book, too. Bad writing drives away parts of the audience. I found your list of examples of what not to do crisp and pithy. The work you are putting into your videos is reflected in their increasing quality. Thanks again.
Thank you for the kind words - I'm glad to see that my effort is showing :) In regards to the GoT examples, the funeral speech by Jon Snow is from Season 8 Episode 4, so quite late in the series, yes. Tyrion Lannister's trial is from Season 4, so definitely an earlier season, yes. And I wouldn't be surprised either, if your reasoning holds a lot of the truth either. There have been many instances in recent years (I'm looking at you Netflix and the Witcher) where Hollywood butchered amazing stories because they ignored the source material.
@@TheTaleTinkerer One visual thing that I have noticed, which makes me curious, is the way your face behaves while you speak. The wrinkles on the right side of your face are larger and deeper, and they dimple harder while you talk, especially during more emotionally intense points. So it makes me curious as to whether you ever had a face injury. One of my children suffered Lyme Disease from an undiscovered tick bite several years ago, and one side of her face became temporarily paralyzed (Bell's Palsy.) She made a full recovery, but through that, I learned about celebrities who had had this issue, some of whom did not make a 100% recovery, who had lingering effects, which led their faces to behave similar to the way yours does when you speak. Or maybe it's just a character trait for you, with no known cause. I don't see it as a problem for you, but the difference between the sides is so consistent, I can't help noticing when I am watching (as opposed to just listening). Thanks again for your efforts and insights.
@@robertthomas6363 No injury or anything that I'm aware of, no :)
@@TheTaleTinkerer Thanks for the answer. I don't think it's a lighting effect. Just a facial character trait, then, or perhaps an artifact of your speaking style. ... When it comes to writing, I'm told by some that I have a strength in dialogue and characterization. I've learned a lot more about scene structure recently, but still in the process of putting that knowledge into action. I feel like there's a line past where too much attention to the physics and mechanics of writing can cross over into becoming predictable, losing authenticity, or moving into manipulating readers rather than entertaining or enlightening them. Too little is worse, though. Then you're just amateur. Have you ever pulled back on technique? (Because you found it starting to harm your work rather than to serve it?) Thanks again.
@@robertthomas6363 I often tend to re-learn theory because I prefer to learn it subconciously.
While I have periods of deep studying every now and then (with the channel here now obviously a bit more heavily), I try to not get hung up on theory.
Writing is still a creative process. It's important to understand the basics, yes, and knowing a lot of the more advanced details can help as well. But in the end, there are successful exceptions for every rule.
People like what they like, not what theory dictates they should like. So first and foremost for me is staying true to my own style. If I like reading it, then its a good step for me since I see myself as part of my target audience :)