SBFC 152: Mighty Number Two & Pat's Guilt
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- The gang talk about Mighty No. 9
the title of the video courtesy of this-
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Taken from Super Best Friendcast 152 - Perpetual Motion Hustler's Paradise
superbestfriend...
Pat is surprisingly moral in this slice of a podcast. For someone who would kill anyone for immortality, he cares an honestly noble amount about how his influence and recommendations might have wasted someone's money.
Either Pat is a good guy, OR he values money over the life of a stranger. One or the other.
LieutenantAmerica
I have to ask if Pat claiming he’d kill anyone for immortality is from a podcast or LP.
I mean, I think most of us would kill just about anyone for immortality though
nah i think he just keeps his hopes & dreams healthily separate from his morals around reality. he knows the chances of him being offered immortality if he would just stab a dude to death are less than one in a billion, so its not on his mind (plus, i dont think he'd be able to do it). but the chances that someone got the same experience he did from mighty number 9 are far higher and realer than immortality or whatever other insane things he's said, and addresses it accordingly.
liam interests me here more though. supposedly the optimist, liam does not budge on his "people worked for years on this so i am obligated to enjoy it" mindset and matt & woolie see liam as obstinate as pat is, despite being at opposite ends of positivity and negativity (which they even say at 26:00). i think a rift had been forming between pat & liam caused by some disagreement involving morality which both of them manage to not mention during this 30 minute argument and the fan backlash against liam after this podcast caused pat to either say nothing or something liam interpreted as hostile, and cut ties with the best friends. way after the breakup, when castle super beast was invited to RTX in 2019, liam got upset on stream despite working with woolie and hanging out, which watching the nier automata lp i could see some rift form there too.
i think liam realized a flaw with his logic at some point and never thought through it and instead just let the pressure build until the end of 2016, when he quit. there is some "jontron leaving gamegrumps" level intrigue here, but it all happened online rather than at a convention, so there is pretty much no evidence other than liam throwing shade at his supposed friends. so yeah, liam and woolie pretend they are the high moral ground around pat, while pat seems to have realized that words matter very little to your own personal moral values a long time ago.
Everyone's got their own villains, and this time Pat realizes he was his own villain. Pat hates getting conned into playing a shitty game, so he actually cares if he might've been the shitty person in the opposite shoes.
Pat cares more about wasting time than wasting life probably
at least pat gets that they have a lot of influence over others. i got into persona berserk gurren laggan and jojo because of them.
I got into Berserk because of them. Now am a fan of just one Manga.
I was the opposite, i got into sbf because of their Persona 4 machinima video as i already loved the franchise, then i saw them talking about dumb things they liked that i also liked and it was a match made in heaven.
I got into Yakuza because of them
@@shadowrunner4620 same here and that's why it strikes me fucking insane of Liam to not feel some level of responsibility for having donated to MN9.
They had a pretty huge platform and he doesnt seem to understand that
Pat is only one person also he’s just insane
I get where Lima bean was coming from, but god damn Pat hit the nail on the head with almost every point he made.
I love Pat's sense of honor about potentially making people disappointed after getting them hyped about a game and backing it.
I agree with Pat, just because something isn't ass doesn't mean it deserves praise.
Also, stop saying the thing you like is the best thing ever. It very likely is not despite possibly being good.
Learn to express your love of something in a better way, to the vague mental image of the people who do this.
I love how they all follow the mentality of "wasted potential is worse than no potential at all" but Liam suddenly says that it's fine.
For the rest of them yeah but Liam likes Heavy Rain so... He's always kind of been like that way.
XD He likes the game where a private investigator has the disposable income required to reprogram GPS units to issue threats, keep an entire indoor transformer cluster running w/ cartoonish lightning arcs, and somehow fits into a narrow crawlspace to scatter broken glass even though he's quite overweight; not to mention he has the clairvoyant foresight to plan his crimes perfectly to coincide with impossibly long periods of rain. I just... I can't deal right now
I like the way you think
He never said he enjoyed it. Not once did he say the game was good. He's not even playing devil's advocate. But what he is doing is being a realist in that, the concept is subject to change, he liked the dash and he liked the designs. If you collectively think it's wrong that the game isn't the same as the concept, then it's the backers fault to not consider that, especially when there have already be a lot of bad campaigns where people literally ran away with the money.
@furyberserk Liam absolutely played Devils advocate. He undercuts their criticisms at almost every turn with just "yeah buts thats fine and the rest works"
So because some kickstarters were a scam and the concept was subject to change, everyone should shut up and it's on them for feeling dissapointed?
That's not being realistic, that's blaming people for having an opinion when there's very real reasons for them to feel that way. There's a reason nobody remembers this game now.
What kind of bar for quality is that? Kickscams shouldn't even be considered when talking about a videogame that released.
Pat made Liam cry like an anime fan on prom night here
Good one
Pat's sense of guilt is admirable. Feeling guilty because he understands that they have fans who would support something if they initially said it was hype is completely justified. Not to mention, the way the game was built up by the devs and their entire campaign was like the second coming of Mega Christ. So to get less than that and call it garbage because the expectations of backers and fans were somewhat preyed upon is understandable. And for Liam to say that your individual donations don't matter because they're insignificant is crazy. Of course they do. I can see his and Woolie's points, but they're dashed by Liam coming off as a dick. I love them all, and the fact that they completely don't agree with certain if not many things is what kept me around since almost their inception, or at least the channel's because it's what actual friends do. Hence the name of the channel. But although Pat can be a little crazy and goes overboard from time to time, he's right by a mile. If there's something to take from this, it's to be cautious about what you support. But that can be hard if the thing you're trying to be cautious about is painted as something that meets and goes over all your standards. So be even more careful I guess.
Pat has always been number 1 and Liam will always be the absolute worst
lance5445 Pats funny because he's angry but at the same time he's totally right.
Liam is terrible in these podcasts. The poor inexperienced weeb
Pat has literally gon on record saying that he hates the fans but he sais some funy shit so i gwes it's fine
He's right about that too, though; fans suck, by and large. They're clingy, they're petty, they're entitled, they're obsessive, and they whine on the internet whenever someone says something don't like, with shitty grammar other people can barely read, because they can't be bothered not to suck, but they can put twice as much effort into defending their crappy behavior, without fail.
I'd shake his god damn hand for saying that, because a lot of people would say the same fuckin' thing if they had the balls, but they don't because they're afraid of losing the money the kind of people who'd be offended by that would cost them. And part of the reason this is all true is because people are too fucking afraid to hear it, and while he can be a dick, Pat will frequently think on his own behavior and try to correct it later if you can reasonably prove to him he's being unreasonable, so he has every god damn right to call other people out when they're being pricks themselves.
You bet your ass he's my favorite of the group.
You said it, man.
Who else is listening to this after our remaining Dads got divorced?
Also Pat was 100% still and Liam acting like backer money means nothing for the product and defending a massive disappointment is fucking baffling and self-absorbed.
@@michaellaverty7349 Liam is limp. Pat is engorged.
Any surprise the two aren’t friends? Hell, I knew they didn’t talk after Liam left, but I didn’t think Liam actually dislike Pat. I guess it’s just the contrast in personalities being toooo vast.
Ok, you know what...I'm gonna stop, Pat.
Matt and Liam are soy boys
Looking back it's honestly kind of crazy how hard Liam defended a game everyone thought was mediocre at the time and now has become the butt of so many jokes that it's almost cliche to bring it up nowadays.
Ikr it’s crazy how hard Liam and sometimes woolie were defending it and now years later mighty no 9 has become a game that nobody remembers or everybody sees as a failure of a game
That’s Liam.
Mighty Number 9 is actively making me dejected that the guys working on Gunvolt 3 said they have Inafune on it.
Pat, once again, proving he was the realest and most honest Friend.
@@HovisOats i wish i could upvote you more than once
i have never respected pat so much before.
Or after
@@n-aera He's the most respectable out of all of them hahahaha.
@Arruda that's a yike from me
@@constantanxietyattacks6878I love seeing replies to deleted comments and trying to figure out what happened
People often color Pat as the darkest member of the Zaibatsu. He is a known liar, admits to thinking about ways to cheat or abuse systems constantly, and is easily the quickest to rage over any slight against his person. But then you get this podcast, where he expresses guilt over supporting Mighty #9 and apologies to people he "misinformed"; he hopped on the hype train, helped a garbage game get made, and feels bad about it.
In this instance, Pat shows us that he not only possesses a deep sense of justice but personal accountability as well.
Honestly, it is sort of weird that Woolie and Liam don't take responsibility for their part in Mighty #9 getting made. They are internet personalities that gave their money in the Kickstarter and took time on their podcasts/LPs to talk about the game. Do they think their actions exist in a vacuum?
I got into wrestling because of their Rustlemania videos. I bought Skullgirls and supported Indivisible because of the Best Friends. Hell, I even watched Faceoff again because Mat wouldn't fucking shut up about it for like two years.
I respect Pat for owning up to his mistake. I agree that he probably shouldn't feel bad about it, but the fact that he still does speaks volumes to his overall character.
Now is only he could learn to use『Crazy Talk 』and turn Mighty #9 into something worth playing.
Pat will gladly stab you in the back, he just doesnt want to do it on accident or by mistake.
I feel like taking accountability for an external product is nonsense. If ANYONE backed something based SOLELY on a personality’s recommendation, the the fault lies with that person. The personality probably has access to all the same information you do. I, certainly have bought things recommended and vouched for by public figures, but NEVER without reviewing it myself.
I sank quite a bit of money into MN9, after it was shown and told to me by Internet Personalities. That I would blame them for getting me to invest in it is ludicrous, because they only every said facts that were stated and shown on the Kickstarter, and speculated on the game based on that same information, exactly as I did. They are not at fault for me investing in MN9. The Kickstarter promising unreal goals and my own gullibly is to blame.
This moment is what confirmed Pat as my favorite.
the K-fabe is dropped for a second
@@Noxshade Again, the onus and responsibility EQUALLY lie with the people promoting the game, the people developing the game, and the people publishing/distributing the game. To assert this self-evident truth as "nonsense" is delusional on YOUR PART, on YOUR END and only yours. To quote Charlie Brooker "...Advertisers are ABSOLUTE cretins." So Pat actually taking the onus of the blame is not only smart and rational but it's also steeped in reality and ethically correct.
7:48 isn't that what anybody does when they start a new game? press all the buttons... says the guy that basically didn't know that there was a run button in super mario rpg
I absolutely miss Liam being part of the best friends, but boy do I NOT miss his uncontrollable need to play devil's advocate. This was peek intolerable on it.
What was the reason for Liam's leaving?
@@wsly224 At the time it was stated to be mental health reasons and wanting to do his own thing without being tied to SBFP or something like that, but within the last day it's been made very clear by Liam's twitter statements that it was because he couldn't stand being around Pat. Though even before today, it was fairly easy to draw that conclusion, as Liam pretty much pretended Pat didn't exist while still frequently interacting with Matt and Woolie.
@@EmperorZ19 Pat's talked about interacting with Liam post his absence though, maybe he just couldn't handle having a professional relationship with him?
@@ricardonelson7628 Liam has Pat blocked on Twitter, so whatever Pat had said to Liam, Liam wanted nothing to do with him.
@@P0werL1ch Yeah, I really see Liam as kind-of a shitbag now.
Maybe Pat transforms into a fucking monster off-camera, but I really get the impression that Matt and Liam are divas, and woolie and pat are super chill.
“Some people like the taste of shit in their mouth”
It was at this moment that Liam began planning to leave
To eat more shit
No but r.i.p Liam
Pat owned his ass
29:10 is the killshot
Good, he was the worst part of the podcast. He was constantly acting like a know it all contrarian who liked bad things as a substitute for an actual personality, and it got annoying fast.
Pat sucks at just being straight and instead chooses to double down on hatred still to this day
This is one of the few times I've heard Pat goes full Pat but everything he says makes sense.
Pat's honestly super on point with what he said about backing these games and all that. I preordered both Shovel Knight and Mighty Number 9 because of these guys giving me the hype. I probably wouldn't have played EITHER of them otherwise because I don't go big into the indie games. And I know I read several comments when they talked about the MNo9 kickstarter of people saying, "Yeah, I donated money because you brought this to my attention."
Liam can't ignore that the podcast gets thousands of downloads, downloads from people who BOUGHT THESE NERDS HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF ANIME. Does he really think that him saying, "Wow, this game looks neat" doesn't get about 30 people with too much money to throw their cash at it? I'm not saying they are solely responsible, that would be stupid, everyone has a choice, but in most cases I agree with these guy's taste in gaming and when they have fun with something I note that I probably will too. That's why I follow them, watch the videos and listen to the podcast. What they say DOES IN AT LEAST A SMALL PART effect my gaming habits the same way a movie reviewer affects their fan's watching habits.
Liam LITERALLY owns a 200 dollar box set of an anime GIVEN TO THEM!
he can't deny they have some leeway have some influence on the fans.
Liam can enjoy his shit all he wants but stop being a fucking baby over people not liking your shit.
$500-600, but yeah
Actually it's like ~$500
It's been 10 months. Do you know the difference between effect or affect yet?
I've bought Dead Cells when I saw them play it on the channel and Pat on stream (which was fucking hilarious seeing him trying to justify not buying items for a roguelike dungeon game)
Here 4 years later to say Pat was super right
Pat is right 100% correct. MN9 is nothing if not the hype made by the devs promise of it being the rebirth of Megaman and you have every right to call it a complete failure if its anything but that. Basically a game with MN9's upbringing doesn't get to be "just alright"
Higth115 dude, when it was delayed the second time I knew this game was gonna be ass.
Necroposting, but Yooka Laylee, anybody?
@@ledzeppelinfan1001 When they were trying to kickstart ANOTHER game off of that game before it was finished, thats when I felt it had a real shot at failing.
I'm all for positivity and optimism, but Liam defending what is clearly rubbish is baffling. It's not the worst, it's mediocre and below par, but for how much it got and the work put into it, it's a failure and garbage.
No one tries button combinations the first time they play a game. They'll try all the buttons, but why would you ever try combinations? How many games actually use button combinations?
From all the clips of the podcast I've seen, Liam almost always disagrees with Pat on all fronts.
Sam Rader thats cause pat will take a 7/10 game and call it worthless, cause whats the point of an average game that you are never going to play.
And liam will sit there and defend a 5/10 cause it has some good points.
Pats willing to stress a negative view on something and liam hasn't quite developed that cynicism yet. IMO liam comes off as naive in alot of these cases.
Cause Liam is a toddler version of Jason Bateman. He still has a while to grow. Hopefully he will.
liam likes heavy rain
Triixster valid reason, but growing up with Jak and Daxter taught me to check button combinations
Crazy Talk *very* rarely overloads and causes Pat to make a statement of
A B S O L U T E.
T R U T H.
That's just Craz Talk's requiem: anything the user says becomes the absolute truth
C U R A Z I T A L K S U R E Q U I E M
@@humphump88 you bastard I was gonna say that!
But then he went on to say Indivisible was still okay to hype up
@@LieseFury that was helping him return back to normalcy.
I liked Liam I thought he brought a unique dynamic to the group and im happy he is enjoying doing his own thing. But fuck I do not miss this shit.
One of the most human moments in the history of the podcast.
By Pat, absolutely.
I miss Liam, but then I'm reminded of stuff like this and go "You know, he wasn't all great". I hope he's well now, but it really makes listening to times like this hard. I personally, really agree with Pat here, and if I had ever influenced someone to get into something and it's bad, I would feel bad from it. And if I had as much influence as I did with Pat here, I would feel 1000x worse.
That said, stuff like this makes Liam leaving all the more understandable, as it's a strong, strong opinion that he is not willing to change. It's joked that Liam really lets bad games slide, but boy he really really let this one slide when it doesn't deserve it.
I can honestly say that these guys are the reason that I bought Shovel Knight.
And I thank them for exposing me to the game.
Man Liam would really just defend a point for no reason beyond it being opposed to pat's view, huh?
no clue what he's even saying but he has to say it
He's probably a stereotypical feminist, and takes a similar way of argumentation. In his mind, everyone SHOULD conform, and dissent is oppression
How depressing that it only took two comments to get to that shit^
Guilty Pat is Punished Pat.
It's really adorable his guilt tho. It's so uniquely Pat. He would make a competent Project Manager for a dev. He would be able to own if a game was shit, unlike a certain influential dev lead that rhyme with 'mitchford'.
Pat is the most desirable of the four for sure.
It's cute, but is a bit much! I'm with Woolie on that one, that's a bit....eh c'mon man!
Pat would just make a game called "Tank Controls" and give it a 5/7. ;D
"The $40 you put into Shovel Knight didn't make a difference."
"Me asking you to donate a little more, just for me, for Indivisible didn't make a difference."
Damn Liam really did take this personally, lighten up.
Pat was totally condescending to everyon though. The way he engaged Liam on the yellow power up in particular. Like I get his point is to go off on the developers on delivering a sub-par product, which most people in these comments seem to agree with. But he doesn't do that initially, instead he goes off on the guys that say anything too positive or apologetic about the game, interrupting, putting words in their mouths, and frame his fundamental point that the game is bad by saying "how dare YOU try to suggest this game isn't a crime against humanity." Like the hyperbole is probably supposed to be funny, but it's also exhausting to anyone who's nowhere near that level of salt or doesn't want to hear Pat dominate the conversation just to say "It's the worst/I feel betrayed" over and over.
ETA: FWIW I thought Pat was putting words in their mouth before hearing Liam say exactly that 😅
@@lnfreeman Liam was pretty condescending aswell. When Woolie was asking him how to do a move and Liam fires back it's in the tip menu in a sort of smug fashion only to be called out that the tip menu is pretty vague on what you need to do liam just deflects and goes "well why don't *you* do button combos" as if that proves his point.
Liam was always a bitch. He could dish it out but could never take it.
In all fairness so did fucking Pat and he was being way more belligerent about it.
@@GoodOlChippy1 Not in the slightest since Pat is right
Liam only thinks that Pat saying what he is saying is Pat stroking his ego. Unfortunately, Liam is objectively wrong; the product never matters, it's the advertising. People will eat a turd sandwich, or, actually, caviar, as long as they are told it is good. Look at the diamond industry. That's why more people knew who Steve Jobs was over the Woz. There is also tons of bedroom musicians that are more talented than people on labels, but no one knows them. Word of mouth is how the punk, metal, rap and so many other scenes got off the ground. One person donating is also important because so many people don't want to be the first, so they wait for someone else. It's just how it works.
"the dash mechanic is really divisive" only to you Liam, everyone else hates it. So i guess its the division between you and people who actually like good things.
Chase Wilson The dash, by itself, is fine. But it's super not by itself. The overall level design completely contradicts the mechanics of the dash, requiring either multi-level platforming that doesn't let you dash without falling into pits, or encourages you to skip entire sections of the level by spamming the air dash. The suck up mechanic is also counterintuitive, forcing you to stop in the middle of dash spam to take out an enemy directly in your path just to suck them up, them stop immediately to take out the enemy right behind it.
The reason MMX dashing feels so good is because a lot of the level design and enemy placements don't interrupt the dashing or encourage fast movement. There are a LOT of slopes and enemies that are easily avoided simply by jumping over them, and enemies that can't be jumped over and have to be destroyed are in places that you wouldn't be dashing anyways. It all moves so fluidly in MMX but in MN9, it just strikes me as "Oh the older megamans had it, so lets throw it in".
I like the dash mechanic tho. I had a really good time with this game.
Thats really unfair to Liam, especially because Woolie says that he also likes the dash 2 seconds later.
I heavily disagree, it's one of the few things that doesn't suck ass in that game.
Too bad that the fucking level design doesn't fucking help it.
Oh fuck, the smarm
It still pisses me off how much they tease/shit on Pat during this. Especially when he's right.
Yeah. Me too.
Liam is a pussy, Matt know if he backs Liam he in turn will back him up and wollie knows backing Pat will escalate things cause while Pat can take it , Liam wont.
Except Pat is not right. He's too self absorbed in this discussion to realize his money doesn't make a game good, it's whether the team behind the game used that money effectively to make the game good.
@@TwoTwig Except the ability to make a game good or not comes from funding, one way or the other. Crowd sourcing means that the funds come from your average joes instead of publishers or companies. No matter how good a team is if they don't have the funds available to make a good game they can not make a good game.
A bad team, if given enough money and time COULD make a good game and while a good team could make a similarly good game with less time and less money they absolutely need the money in order to create the good game.
@@TwoTwig It's not just the money it's the advertising he said he did by talking about how excited he is. He feels bad for even directing anyone towards this trash
this just makes me respect pat way more
Liam and Woolie don't give nearly enough credit to the people that back a game, nor the value of their own support/dismissal towards a project. They did draw attention for people towards the project and they did help make it happen.
It's especially baffling given the absolute begging and shilling for Indivisible that occurred.
"Do it for me" is a vomit worthy phrase from Liam that should've been slapped at the end of the video.
Is this why Pat is so confident? He is so right on this case, and everyone is so wrong and going against him. If most discussions on the old podcast sounded like this, no wonder he is so confident, I also listened to the Cyberpunk Discussion
Honestly that's why I hate that they Livestream on Twitch, if I had thousands of 12 year olds screaming wrong things at me all day I'd have an undeserved amount of confidence too.
Remember when he said the game didn’t exist? Wild
@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeatWhich game? Cyberpunk? Boy was he right about that one too
Forget about Pat's guilt, that's his prerogative, but he's completely spot on about his (and people's) money funding this game, and therefor having a shared responsibility in this mess. "Vote with your wallet" is a saying for a reason. You made this... this is your creation. But nah, I'd rather put all my money on the next Kickstarter. People suffer from monetary incontinence, but at least it benefits the economy.
Wow... Liam REALLY took this to heart. Like, 0 to 100 real quick...
Time stamp?
@@tonybandana7553 20:30
Pat discovering the problem with "Influencer mentality"
That's what he was trying to say.
He feels bad because he was hype and told people about it.
And that hype lead to people buying into it more than they probably otherwise wouldn't have.
Pat got it, but I'm not sure the others understood that they had genuine influence over a lot of people
He's willing to dunk on something even if its not in his best interests.
It was sad that Liam/Woolie learned nothing from this when Indivisible came up.
Straight up, I bought Double Dragon Neon when I was waffling on buying it because Woolie and Matt hyped it up so much. it's a good game, but influence, no matter how big or small, can lead you to that. That and Earth Defense 2025, Tekken Tag 2, Third Strike, Deadly Premonition, Bully. Never heard of EDF 2025, Tekken Tag 2, Third Strike, Deadly Premonition, and Bully, but I only regret Tekken Tag 2, every other purchase was solid.
@@Gungho73I’ll never trust Woolie on anything after the Indivisible “hype”.
That’s a shame, but oh well. ^
Pat is my fav so imma back my boy on this even though I never played MN9. Also Liam saying that Pats $40 didn't matter makes me sick of course it mattered so did the other thousands of people that donated. It's like people the people that say "Oh one vote won't matter." during an election, but you times that by 100,000 people saying that then it does matter.
No raindrop feels responsibility for the flood,
And no snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche
@@Abdegathe change in air pressure or a loud sound ought to feel responsible as well
7:12 if only they knew years ago how bad “the sun told me to stop” would really become
Is it related to the newspaper or is it something else?
Search for Castle SuperBeast and Katalyka
I'm not going to lie, I hate any podcasts that don't have Pat and Liam in them. They're the only two that actually butt heads with opinions and they're behind 90% of the good conversations that happen on the podcast.
That said Liam is so hilariously wrong about personal responsibility that when he taps out from being pushed into a corner I got such schadenfreude.
note4note ~PODCASTS WITHOUT LIAM~
RubberFistFight boy, does that description of Liam seen pretty damn on-point these days.
I would say I get this more with Pat and Woolie than I do with Pat and Liam.
That being said: people give Liam way to much shit for finding redeeming qualities in things. Most people who play games are whiny piss baby’s about games.
@@kyubiiofrage Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.
Pat has a point that he tries to push but no one quite gets it. The campaign for MN9 was saying how it's a spiritual successor to the classic megaman games. But then it came out and it was more like the X games. Those are two completely different franchises and while there's an overlap there, if you're expecting one of them and you get the other you're gonna be disappointed.
This.
If Bug Fables, another kickstarter game, promoting itself to be like Paper Mario the Thousand Year Door/original Paper Mario TB RPG, came out and it was like Paper Mario Color Splash or Sticker Star, people would've rightfully revolted. Those are two different games. Even if you said original Paper Mario to Mario and Luigi, those games fans would very much argue are not equivalent. Luckily that didn't happen with Bug Fables, a tremendous game, but it unfortunately did with MN9...
It’s interesting going to these older podcast clips and reading people’s reactions to everyone these days.
The smarm is amazing
I wonder if arguing with Pat is what made Liam break. I know they are friends, but in this conversation he sounds seriously annoyed at Pat.
I understand both points and both of them have good arguments, but Liam acts like the world is divised about Mighty No. 9, and it's not. It was really bad, Inafune promised an experience on par with Megaman quality and the funding was BIGGER than Shovel Knight. Being less than Shovel Knight plus having all those extensions for the Kickstarter and other projects made it such scummy thing that salted the fans really hard. It's justifiable anger.
I think it's why they disbanded. Matt is soft like Liam and can't take pat's stubborn and often unreasonable personality, at least not as well as woolie does.
It’s because Pat has self-confidence and Liam doesn’t. If people aren’t constantly agreeing with Liam he can’t be happy.
@@alexanderfreeman3406 long winded way of insulting Liam outright
@@cezarjulian0320 If you consider an honest observation an insult, then I pity you.
I've known many people that are just like Liam. It's uber left-wing soft boy vibes who is incapable of dealing with a dissenting opinion.
I like Liam and all but it's shit like this that makes him my fourth favorite of the Zaibatsu.
This. Liam's far and away my least favorite of the 4 and I've been trying to like him more for the past 2 years and I just can't cause of douche shit he says and does like this
+blinKX10 then Liam needs to stop being human garbage
People like you caused him to leave.
+Matthew Butters good
Matthew Butters Yeah good, fuck that guy. Not really. Kinda. He's way less annoying on his own channel.
What the fuck is liam talking about? Does he not understand how kickstarter works? Also big props to pat for being an astoundingly good person here.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the video that made Liam leave the zaibatsu.
Also, Liam support not voting and not donating because he specifically said, your donations/ votes don't matter
I don't get how people who support Liam in this argument can completelly ignore that the Zaibatsu had massive influence, which is a large part of Pat's argument.
Sure, Pat's 40 dollars aren't a big deal in the grand scheme of things, and they didn't make the game better or worse - but how much money did them talking about it generate?
How much money did the tens, even hundreds, of thousands of people who listened to them daily on their LPs and weekly on their podcast generate?
And sure, you might say "well, everyone had the option to read through the kickstarter and look at what was promised and decide wherever they should donate based on that."
But if a friend, or a person whose opinion you respect and trust and align with (such as the Zaibatsu), tells you "hey, this looks to be a promising game when it comes out, I'm gonna support it", are you gonna fucking stand here and tell me in honesty that your opinion wouldn't be swayed?
Have you never purchased a game based on a friend's recommendation? If not, has a friend of yours never done that?
Pat feels terrible because he made other people waste their money on a terrible product by talking about it, not because he put his own $40 into it.
And sure, if they hadn't talked about the game, it would still pass its goal, without a doubt. But Pat wouldn't have been the one responsible for people wasting their money.
I reccomended Outer Worlds to my best friend and he hated it and I still feel really bad because he works for his money and that is $60 he earned that I convinced him to essentially throw away. Liam was in denial
@@scrat9870 I did the same thing when Dissdia came out on PS4 I was hyping the game out before it was out so due to that he bought it day one like I did just to drop the game in less than a week due to how bad it was
I keep replying elsewhere, but that point of view Liam had at the time is especially embarrassing when you consider him begging/shilling with Woolie for Indivisible. Literally the phrase "Do it for me." And donate a bit extra if you already did. Can't believe he had no shame doing that despite telling people their donations essentially didn't matter. This is the same guy who, as a former tester myself, would tell you to not ever blame QA. QA that is routinely understaffed, with limited hours. You know the example Pat uses for that timeframe for an extra hour or two of development/testing? That would've gone to me or us indirectly potentially. Which can make or break a project. So to tell someone that didn't matter is so...
I don't like Liam.
I think I like @scrat @Hegataro and @Jhun Hoon however! ^_^
Isn't some of the reason as to why the Yakuza games are big on the west now because of them?
I was absolutely naffled for like a solid two minutes because i was confusing Mighty No. 9 wirh Wonderful 101
imagine how much better this segment couldve been if liam couldve just said "yeah, its not a masterpiece"
Imagine how much better it would've looked for him later when he was begging people to fund Indivisible if he didn't have the viewpoint he did here. Embarrassing.
Did Liam work on MN9? The way he's defending every indefensible point brought up is completely stunning.
Can a guy have a different opinion without having an ulterior motive. Jesus Christ.
@@DownClownTownFrown liam fucking sucks and was the worst part of the Zaibatsu
@@betaraybillfan1750 well I disagree
@@DownClownTownFrown fair enough, who was your least favorite member of the zaibatsu?
@@betaraybillfan1750 I mean like like all of them but if i had to pick one it’d be Pat, just because he can be kind of abrasive. And is also usually the one who misses really obvious things/features in a game.
they shilled so hard, and got so far
in the end it doesnt even matter
13:00 The thing to remember here, is that Bloodstained was, and still is, quality. Regardless of how much of a failure that MN9 ended up being, we can kickstart some gold out of IP corpses.
27:00 Oh shit, Woolie brought up Indivisible. That's a stinking C- of a game that I got sold on from his hype, twice over. My own fault for getting hype over it and impulse buying, frankly.
I bought it knowing it wasn't the "best" but, I like the developers and they made good with Skullgirls ten times over. I'd feel super sad if they sunk too much into it and couldn't make more.
Luckily the devs are a small team and have a finger on the pulse of the internet, so even without a "failure" I think they'll learn from the response. Pat and woolie talk with the main dude often directly too, so for sure he hears it from them.
To be fair, Indivisible looked more than solid through development.
Don’t blame Woolie for the game not being your jam. Ultimately you have to form your own opinions.
Quality is a bit much. Animation and Style is terrible. The feel and gameplay Just overly clunky and anti fun
Bloodstained was and still is a busted pile of wank. Rushed to completion and is still broken as fuck to this day. Indivisible is still a mediocre masturbatory affair from Alex Ahad himself. The lesson of the day is this: DON'T FUND CROWDFUNDERS. FULL STOP! NOT EVEN FUCKING ONCE!!! You're only setting yourself up for failure and disappointment 100% of the time and any and all exceptions only prove the rule of scientifically verifiable and peer-reviewed consistency.
pats feeling of guilt towards their fanbase is justifiable imho. lets remember, this fanbase are psychotics. they bought the gang not 1, but 2 copies of the Gurran Lagan billion dollar box set. the idea that they might spend unreasonable amounts of money purely because they said so is not only reasonable, its happened before.
That yooka lalee comment has not aged well
Listening to this after listening to their Adventure Time game argument fucking *IRKS* me.
I know Pat is a raging ginger baby sometimes. But when he is right, he is right. Even Woolie acknowledges the bullshit when Pat points it out. I think this is why they stayed friends, because Woolie sees that if maybe Pat tuned down his neuroticism people would listen to him more.
Doesn’t hurt pat was the highest voted popular member too. We all know George Constanza was the best character, despite the show being called Seinfeld. But yes, Woolie and Pat was the best content on the channel with the best chemistry. And everyone realized too late.
I really don't understand why Woolie and Liam are confused about Pat's sentiment. If you disagree with him that's totally fine but for it to just go right over there heads is crazy to me. I have SO many games in my library because of the SBFP, just off the top of my head Darkwood and The Catlady come to mind. There is a few in there I purchased without having them watched them play it. I love Woolie and I still watch him to this day and Liam is one of the most wholesome people I have ever got the chance to talk to but the two of them are so lacking in self-awareness.
Liam has always been a know it all, and loved playing devil's advocate at the slightest provocation, and clearly didn't like Pat, so him wanting to dismiss Pat's feelings of culpability are on brand for him. He doesn't feel guilty, so no one should, even though that's not how internet influence and endorsement work. And the guy, no matter what you do, refuses to accept responsibility or apologize if what he does or says hurts someone.
With Woolie, it's more that especially back then, he seemed to almost *need* to dominate and control the conversation between the group, and had/still has a habit of, if he doesn't personally agree with someone's opinion, instead of just letting them have it and expressing his own to contrast it, immediately shuts it down, tells them "no, you're wrong," and tries to logic away their feelings or opinions because "I'm the most smartest and enlightened and moral person in the room, so if I don't agree with you, that must mean I haven't logic'd at you hard enough."
Like, say what you will about Pat, he can be petulant and an asshole sometimes, but he's honest, tends to frame his disagreement as disagreement or not understanding instead of omniscient superiority, and is willing to concede that he's wrong if you can prove he's wrong.
@@senorsnout4417 I actually forgot I wrote this lol. It's kinda sad but I quit watching Woolie shortly after I made this comment and the main reason is because he's so lacking in self-awareness. I can't watch Pat, I'll never understand the appeal of watching someone grind in a mmo or 'hate playing' a single player game on story difficulty. Matt by himself just doesn't have the same energy unfortunately but I'm happy that he's finding success in his produced content
Sorry about my semi off topic tangent but I just felt the need to get it off my chest. Watching these guys fall into obscurity has been tough to watch.
@@DarkWraithKevin Woolie is the type of person that will go out of his way to shit talk the one fan in his comments helping or defending him and ignore the 500+ actively dunking on him/giving him shit advice. He fails at understanding his place in games, and his place in his comment section. It's his worst trait about him.
Watching them all fall into obscurity has been tough to watch too. They were better together, even if they were shit in the end.
@@Gungho73 Yeah it's been rough, I came back to watch the Mass Effect lp but stopped after they started playing ME2. The way he handled the series was just really weird and jarring. I think it's pretty funny even Pat was like "what are you doing bro".
It's sad cause I really like the formula he's using that's similar to the old channel and I think Reggie is great. I could even get past Woolie's negative traits, I've gotten kinda used to them over the years lol, but his 'fans' are what makes his channel unwatchable for me. Look at how they treated v mills, that's some dekcuF up tihS.
@@DarkWraithKevin Silent Hill 3 killed my enthusiam as well. Was so, so looking forward to it and he actively took in-game steps he didnt in prior games in the series to damage his enjoyment and quality of the playthrough. It was extremely heartbreaking.
"Beat Game Dodn't Matter" is a bad mentality you use when you know you're in the wrong. Like actively targeting the advice of a guy who's trying to help so negatively vs telling again, that wave of people to fuck off that want to sabotage him/shit on him when he can literally do both *live* is infuriating.
In hindsight, it's clear that Liam legitimately disliked Pat.
Eh they were literally opposites
In hindsight it’s clear that Liam was a paper-skinned baby.
In hindsight it's clear that Liam was a punk bitch...
You can tell both matt and liam really disliked pat in the life is strange lets play.
Weird because liam/pat lets plays felt really chill. I guess ill have to watch them again.
liam... my dude... i do not understand your arguments
Liam’s sentiment on pat feeling bad about giving money to a shit game is so defeatist, like no vote matters, no money matters, fuck publishers what are they for, it’s so stupid especially coming from people with qa backgrounds that should understand every hour, every dollar, every bug, does matter. So naive and ridiculous, especially with how pompous he behaves about it.
Pat was right
I believe this is before he was stabbed with the Stand Arrow
Pat’s always right, [ CRAZY TALK ] just immediately changes reality so he’s wrong.
I´ve been listening to old SBFC episodes and man, Liam was such an apologist for mediocre shit like the Ouya and MN9
Anyone being an apologist for the Ouya has to be missing chromosomes.
Mighty Number 9/11 of Video games
This is so weird listening in 2020 when Number 9 is basically just constantly shat on for being a bad game
I have literally never heard of it up until this video
@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat That's its greatest failure as a video game then.
@@Gungho73*greatest feature*
Also 27:17. Woolie, Indivisible was definitely not a slam dunk. It ended somewhat incomplete too.
I was here. I was here when Pat was super right about everything.
“me and matt are wAiting for things to be terrible” ohh no
😂😂😂
Isnt that what you do press the buttons when you get a game? O yeah as soon as i get a game i dont play it i press every fucking random combination of buttons... FUCKING R2 AND SQUARE
I thought this was going to be a random funny clip, but it was just a reminder of how much better the content is with just Woolie and Pat, and also how absolutely unbearable Liam is when someone disagrees with him.
Time stamp for when the argument begins
Honestly I've never really enjoyed Liam. My first experience with him was during his and Woolie's Guacamelee playthrough, and his constant backseating was borderline unbearable.
Some amount of backseating is always bound to happen, but he'd be telling Woolie what moves to pull mid combo damn near every time.
Or Woolie would come across an area that requires a power to access, but would take a second to actually go over to the area because he was worried about progression cutting off item gains. Liam would interrupt to be like "Oh yeah. You've gotta use that power over there by pressing this button combo. You might not have realized"
I'm sure Woolie realized, as these metroid-vania style areas are color coded based on what power you're getting, so they're VERY obvious in the environment.
Again, I get it, but with the interruptions and how constant it is.. Oof. Woolie has the patience of a Saint.
Yeah I never enjoy Liam. He could be fine to tolerable if he was with at least two of the original three. If it was ever Woolie, Matt, or Pat with just Liam, it was a ruined LP for me. Glad that Woolie and Pat still seem close after all this time.
Liam for me just always came across as an overbearing weeaboo. Like the others used to talk about anime and whatnot but they would talk about other things. Liam only ever talked about anime and it got old real quick. It also made him a hardcore apologist for anything japanese related which bled through here in regards to mighty no 9. I seriously think that if Mighty No 9 was the product of a western dev group with no connection to inafune or japan beyond just making a megaman successor, Liam would be agreeing with everything Pat says and then some.
@@chrismanning2888 00:00 - 32:57
I'm used to Woolie playing "Woolie'a Advocate" but Liam is just straight up wrong to the point of sounding like a forced contrarian... wow I'm glad he's not a part of the podcast
Okay I know this is old as hell and they're broken up, but how does Liam think numbers work??
2,852 isn't just a whole value in and of itself. It's two thousand eight hundred and fifty two 1s that make it up. Each part of the whole contributes. Sure, a corporation can afford to drive away a few customers, probably even a few dozen. But hundreds of thousands? That's arrogance- that's detachment from reality. The idea that because there are so many, no individual matters. That's just not how reality works.
I hope Liam now, present day years later Liam, looks back at himself defending bullshit and cringes.
Yeah he's annoying and I said as much in other comments, but to your last point, I'm not sure if he ever regretted MN9 specifically, but he is on record saying that he'll never get over having "this phase of his life" be so public. I think he was like 20 or something when he joined and didn't even finish college yet which he has gone back to. He's still wrong and deserves the criticism, but I have to admit if everything I said was broadcasted for 5 years, I'd probably seem silly too.
I will say I got Colossal Kaiju Combat! cause Mat was excited about it and honestly the game had made progress...but now it so cold that it hasn't been updated in since last year. Which sucks cause I want a really good Kaiju game. lol
With the amount of people (including myself) who claim that their love of Yakuza was spawned by the Best Friends LP it is *insane* for Liam or Woolie to think they shouldnt feel level of responsibility for convincing people to donate to MN9
Liam almost started crying right there.
He was ready to call Pat a white cis male
@@TheSergio1021 crying like an anime girl on prom night.
I understand Pat even though he's being slightly hyperbolic, the rage is justified. Inafune swindled, did he not? The game still is buggy on PS4. If I had promoted this game to my friends, I too would be upset. I would feel bad. His platform is bigger, he has actual fans. It's no wonder he feels bad about it. The game should've been at the very least as good as the most average MMX or MMZ game.
Not to mention I don't believe those games ever came to all the platforms they promised.
Holy shit I missed this bit and I came back to it because someone on the subreddit pointed it out, so sorry if it's out of date.
Liam here pisses me off, how can he say to not feel responsible when you are (I guess I should say "were" now, whatever) a popular internet personality in the gaming community that can potentially influence tons of people just based on your opinion, let alone pledge to a Kickstarter project? You could've just say "no one could've known that it was going to become this", it would've been a much better stance here.
I know he used to be the devil's advocate a lot in the podcast and I bet he still is elsewhere because it's clearly part of his personality, so I'll just say that he kinda needs to get gud at arguing with people because not only I disagree with most of what he's says, but he was coming off as a real prick and I'm sure he didn't want to.
My friend convinced me to buy the original home front day 1 after months of hyping it up. I did not like it and felt I wasted my money. Cause back then I didn’t have a job or allowance so I got games as bday gifts or trade ins and I had traded in some really good games I had beaten already but still liked. Anyway my friend felt so bad he payed me for the game and took my copy.. also I bought and supported shovel knight cause of the their videos … so yeah they do contribute to a game even if they don’t touch the code.
"[Indivisible] is on the right side of that line."
O O F
BIG FUCKING O O F
I D O N T F E E L S O G O O D
Fuck Woolie forever for that.
Pat's voice matches his picture on the screen. Just anger and self rage.
Pat is right- I did the exact thing with my friend and Nier Automata that Pat did with Paige and MH because his core ethical stance is WATERTIGHT.
Liam couldn't even begin to counter Pat's basic position and if Woolie wasn't babysitting his feelings throughout this whole conversation we could have seen this get extremely ugly from him.
I’m confused, you married and had a kid with your friend?
Liam essentially said "You only donated $40 dollars to the KKK? Well, that's fine because you basically did nothing."
Whether it's 1 or 1,000 a contribution is a contribution. Even if it's just the smallest fraction he absolutely had a tangible part in making Shovel Knight (and MN9) and it's fine for him to claim such. I still think he was overblowing how bad MN9 was, I thought it was mostly fine, but I have to agree with him on that note.
Pat got the better kid in the divorce
I’d say it’s more accurate to say Woolie did, considering both podcasts were his baby.
Just shows why Pat was the best and Liam the worst member.
This was Pat’s greatest stand. ;-;7
I bet liam googled "10 ways to defend mighty no.9 with images" when he went quiet
Has someone who bought bot Berserk and Jo Jo because of these guys constantly talking them I get where pat is coming from go hyping this game up
Did Liam cry?
I like Liam trying to disprove Pat trashing on MN9 by saying "the reviews think differently." Aged like a plum, going by reviews, this is still an awful game
But it's not a bad thing to be positive. When someone enjoys something and you think they're wrong, even if a majority of people eventually come around to agreeing with you, there's nothing good about making them feel bad about it.
24:30 Completely had this happen to me so I can’t agree with Pat more here
This is such a great reminder about how terrible Liam was. He's Ringo and Yoko rolled into one.
At this moment the seeds of revenge were planted in Liam's soul
I am wayyyy late to this, but what did Liam do specifically to Pat? I heard he blocked him but I don't count that as revenge per se
As of this time of writing, August the 5th of 2018, both the vita and 3ds version have not come out, nor has there been any news of it.
It is Jan 2nd 2019 and still...
July 26th 2019 and nothing
Feb 2020 and still nothing
2021 still nothing
It's 2023, hope for a 3DS/Vita version remains low. Waiting for the brave hero to return to us within a year or so.
A reminder why salty ass Liam's departure was a blessing.
Liam goes full communist with saying that the sum of donations matters but that one donor is in no way responsible in any way for the outcome. Just money out of nowhere I guess.
love how they say they wont say support kickstarter right after they talk about bloodstained
And months before, Liam literally telling people "do it for me" on Indivisible funding. For him to not understand Pat's emotions and having literally prayed on his own fanbase in turn, it's disgusting.
I hate it
it just occurred to me, imagine if Liam tried pulling that whole "how much money did you give?" bullshit on someone and they said, "$10,000". What the fuck would Liam do next? Would he still try the whole "what did your $10,000 pay for?"
Liam's optimistic attitude comes off as so ignorant that it's the reason why he bothers me.
I've seen you guys saying how he left probably partly of the shit he'd get but that's what happens when you say shit people disagree with you about, they disagree. His condescending and cocky attitude is what I hated SO MUCH whenever he was in a video on on the podcast. I DON'T wish any ill will on Liam, that's fucking absurd but fuck me I just wish he'd think about what he says more.
CyberSlayer128 definitely agree. while I really like Liam as a person, even his 'what did you do to make this game better?' argument is really iffy. Much of the societal understanding of art patronage and entrepreneurship explicitly acknowledges that it's pretty hard to make things with zero money, especially in electronics, where even the programs to make the art are often exorbitantly expensive. While Pat did absolutely jack shit to make the game artistically, he made it possible for people to do so, which is still pitching in.
its baffling he had the balls to tell Pat that and then turn around and beg us to fund, or fund a bit more, Indivisible. Specifically for him. Contrarian fuck.
Liam is wrong, as usual
I'm glad this happened, it will be a great experience for kickstarters to become more demanding, and give people angry at the final product that they funded a lesson of how executives and investors feel and do what they do, having a strong hand on the creative process so that it doesn't go over budget and is ready on time even if it means limiting the game as they are the guys that can invest 4M each to make a successful game saleswise
Miss ya Liam but you sure can be too above everyone else. Pat isn't even wrong.