Really fantastic analysis!! Brought up a lot of points and criticisms that I hadn't even considered. I think your main point about Return of the Obra Dinn being played inside your own mind is super spot-on. It's a logic puzzle for gamers.
About the physicality: if you read the devlog online, it's astounding how much time and effort was spent on making the game world tangible. The hand animation and coding, the exact bobbing of the camera when you walk, the spreads of the book moving to the right as you flick through it like they do in a real bound book.
Yes, it's so rare to have such a detailed log of the technical development side of a game. One thing I found fascinating was seeing Pope work out the best way to implement the 1-bit artstyle without it being visually overwhelming. He found that the better the footage would compress into video (like in UA-cam trailers) without artifacting too much, generally, the easier it was to parse visually as a player. There's so much cool stuff there.
I just had the painful realization that we almost certainly won't get "another" obra dinn this game really is one of a kind and I'm left with an intese craving for more of it that I'm not sure anything else could satisfy.
If you haven’t already, then play Outer Wilds. They’re quite different but both hit that itch of discovery and figuring out what happened to a long lost group of people along with how the mechanics of the world(s) works. I cannot recommend enough going into Outer Wilds blind. It is phenomenal and I do not know anyone who finishes the game without being deeply moved and effected by it
@@dandaropa Too late, already did! Amazing game, I'm constantly trying to bribe my friends into playing it. But now you get a recommendation too: Chants of Sennar, very different to the other two, but the way that the puzzle is ultimately understanding as a player, much like Obra Dinn, makes it tremendously compelling.
@@TuftyTaltan try The Case of the Golden Idol. Won't spoil it, but it does require deduction and understanding past the tutorial stage, obtaining that understanding is earned and rewarding. Traersal element is removed, and you can go and look anywhere anytime in a few seconds and clicks.
Great video, it brought back a lot of memories. When I finished the game, the most frustrating thing was knowing that there wouldn't be another game like it. I wanted more, which made me love this game even more, because for me, it was truly unique in its category. On the plus side, I have a very bad memory for remembering first names, so I could start it again, even if it still won't have the same taste as the first time.
As much as I wanedt a way to fast-travel to scenes, I definitely agree with the decision to make you walk to each location, because I think it would have been a lot harder to understand where you are physically on the ship. The only place that an exception would have been nice is the Edward and Friends Rowboat Adventure, which is impossible the view in chronological order when you're revisiting it
I think forcing peiple to walk to, and forcing them to stay some ammount of time inside memories is necessary. You can comolete the game while only seeing each memory once, if you can find all the clues on every scene (as denonstrated by MangledPork's lets play), but most people just breeze through scenes and do not see the majority of clues and/or never go back to the scenes (i have seen A LOT of people, that once they finish unlocking all scenes just never revisit them, and just try to solve what is left by staring at the info on the book pages, thus making it harder on themseleves by missing all the important clues).
Obra Dinn was one of the rare games that completely GRIPPED me and refused to let go, until I finished it in a single sitting. I cannot think of the last time something caused me to lose sleep over how deeply engrossing it was to me, and Obra Dinn achieved it. And you put together a wonderful video to talk about this masterpiece. However, I do tend to disagree with one thing you said in it - you referred to the "Bargain" chapter being named such from the captain bargaining with the mermaids. I disagree. Captain Witterell was THREATENING the mermaids with death to call off the kraken ravaging the ship, which I would hardly consider bargaining; that's extortion. What I DO consider to be the titular scene of that final chapter is Third Mate Martin Perrot's death scene. He was the one who proposed a bargain in his last moments- not Witterell-requesting the mermaid to guide the Obra Dinn back to England, and granting its release and the remaining shell in exchange.
My boyfriend was visiting me when I first played Obra Dinn, and there were times that I said "I can't cuddle now I've just found a massive lead!" This game really is one of the best games I've ever played, without exaggeration.
9:13 OMG YES!! If you are going through the game for the first time, keep track of the shoes! Seriously one of the most effective ways of identifying everyone who’s sleeping. Also watch for the languages, people hang out with those they can understand, and where they sleep.
I've returned to Return of the Obra Dinn multiple times. It just takes a year or so between playthroughs. Or a mind, like mine, that sucks at names. :p
Last week I finished the second time this game and, without the fact that I was one fate of the good ending (fricking chapter 7), its an absolute 10/10. No one talks about it but I love it because you go in 0 expectations and causes such an impact in all his faces that makes it unforgetable. Gold masterpiece!!!
It might also be worth looking at Curse of the Golden Idol. I jumped into it on recommendation for more games like Obra Dinn and it really does scratch a similar "playing the game in your head" itch, with a similar situation of being given a static set of scenarios and your only mission is to find out what the hell happened here
Lovely video. I want to add to one thing you say at the end of the video, about games like Obra Dinn and Outer Wilds not having replay value. In a very strict sense, I suppose this is true. However these games have left such a strong impression on me and others around me, that knowing we can only experience them once, for the first time, that we seek out other ways to re-experience the games. Outer Wilds was shared to me by a friend who had previously completed it, and was shared to me with a message akin to "Because I can't play this again without already knowing everything I've seen, you are going to play it for the first time for me". And so I played Outer Wilds with my friend watching my screen in Discord, talking me through things, letting me explore on my own, and occasionally giving me a nudge if I was lost or asked for help. And after playing through the game I understood what he meant. I wanted more and was saddened that there was no more to discover. I'd seen it all, and that felt bad. However much like my friend I went on to do the same thing to other friends. Obra Dinn was one I shared with whomever might enjoy it. And when they were doubtful I would play the game for them and broadcast it over Discord or Twtich and have the tell me what to do. This really only worked with Obra Dinn and not Outer Wilds as the smaller spaces and more structured gameplay made it much easier to jump from scene to scene and look at everything that caught my co-player's eye. I got lost reminiscing about these great games. I just wanted to share that perhaps their replay value lies in sharing the experience with those close to you.
One thing I must say having juat beat it, reading the different options for cause of death really put some high expectations on some cool varied deaths, when in reality most of the deaths are the same few things. That was a little dissappointing, especially checking off your 6th speared/spiked crewmate.
You know, it says a lot about the quality of a game when my biggest criticism of it is probably the choice to use an X on the indian sailor's bed id plate instead of it being mostly ripped off because it breaks the atmosphere just a little bit.
That's the sad true about mystery games. Once you know the mystery the magic is lost. Like a magic trick. But that doesn't mean that the experience, while it lasted was absolutely wonderful. Like Tunic. That game was absolutely something else. When I tried to replay it, not so much. I guess my point it we should appreciate things by what they are not by what they are not
Still no one has noted the failure of the blurred pictures. Lucas has conflicting mechanics for pacing. The blurring of the pictures, smoke, and having to wait for the song to end all suggest to the player to slow down. But the shaking of the watch encourages the player to speed up. The curiosity of the scenes also encouraging speed. I have yet to observe any player actually note that they should ignore the shaking and check the state of blurred pictures. Which is an actual rule noted by the game. I have seen people after a bit of coaching to not rush ignore the shaking. When doing that the difficulty pips make a bit more sense. However since these two things are ignored by most players I am not surprised to hear that the pips aren't seen as showing proper difficulty.
100% agree with you. The shaking should have been changed, it would be as simple as putting it on a 5 minute timer, so that the player has tine to explore the scene and find the corpse at his own pace, or if they do not find it, to have the shaking pointing it out. The other thing that could more easyly solve the problem, is comunicating to the player that even if the smoke has put a new "corpse" on the boat, you do not need to see his scene, you can leave the smoke "corpse" there and go back to the scene you were watching earlier.
@@dirty_mac he didn’t say that, but even with your criteria; outer wilds, unfinished swan, oxenfree, 12 minutes, gone home, fire watch, forgotten city (minimal combat which doesn’t even need to be in the game imo) I’m sure there’s more, just the ones I’ve played.
"Who wants to play a game that nobody revisits?" Maybe I'm a bit older than you, but do you now what the best selling PC game in the 90's was (before The Sims)? It was Myst ... a puzzle game.
Really fantastic analysis!! Brought up a lot of points and criticisms that I hadn't even considered. I think your main point about Return of the Obra Dinn being played inside your own mind is super spot-on. It's a logic puzzle for gamers.
Thanks, really glad you liked it!
About the physicality: if you read the devlog online, it's astounding how much time and effort was spent on making the game world tangible. The hand animation and coding, the exact bobbing of the camera when you walk, the spreads of the book moving to the right as you flick through it like they do in a real bound book.
Yes, it's so rare to have such a detailed log of the technical development side of a game. One thing I found fascinating was seeing Pope work out the best way to implement the 1-bit artstyle without it being visually overwhelming. He found that the better the footage would compress into video (like in UA-cam trailers) without artifacting too much, generally, the easier it was to parse visually as a player. There's so much cool stuff there.
I just had the painful realization that we almost certainly won't get "another" obra dinn this game really is one of a kind and I'm left with an intese craving for more of it that I'm not sure anything else could satisfy.
If you haven’t already, then play Outer Wilds. They’re quite different but both hit that itch of discovery and figuring out what happened to a long lost group of people along with how the mechanics of the world(s) works.
I cannot recommend enough going into Outer Wilds blind. It is phenomenal and I do not know anyone who finishes the game without being deeply moved and effected by it
@@dandaropa Too late, already did!
Amazing game, I'm constantly trying to bribe my friends into playing it.
But now you get a recommendation too: Chants of Sennar, very different to the other two, but the way that the puzzle is ultimately understanding as a player, much like Obra Dinn, makes it tremendously compelling.
@@TuftyTaltan try The Case of the Golden Idol. Won't spoil it, but it does require deduction and understanding past the tutorial stage, obtaining that understanding is earned and rewarding. Traersal element is removed, and you can go and look anywhere anytime in a few seconds and clicks.
@@DimaBulwinklBochk0 It's at the top of the list now, thank you for the suggestion!
Since you've already played outer wilds, my next best suggestion would be Chants of Senaar
Great video, it brought back a lot of memories.
When I finished the game, the most frustrating thing was knowing that there wouldn't be another game like it. I wanted more, which made me love this game even more, because for me, it was truly unique in its category.
On the plus side, I have a very bad memory for remembering first names, so I could start it again, even if it still won't have the same taste as the first time.
As much as I wanedt a way to fast-travel to scenes, I definitely agree with the decision to make you walk to each location, because I think it would have been a lot harder to understand where you are physically on the ship. The only place that an exception would have been nice is the Edward and Friends Rowboat Adventure, which is impossible the view in chronological order when you're revisiting it
I completely agree
I think forcing peiple to walk to, and forcing them to stay some ammount of time inside memories is necessary. You can comolete the game while only seeing each memory once, if you can find all the clues on every scene (as denonstrated by MangledPork's lets play), but most people just breeze through scenes and do not see the majority of clues and/or never go back to the scenes (i have seen A LOT of people, that once they finish unlocking all scenes just never revisit them, and just try to solve what is left by staring at the info on the book pages, thus making it harder on themseleves by missing all the important clues).
@@diegokevin3824 I'll need to check that one out!
How the hell does this have so few views
Obra Dinn was one of the rare games that completely GRIPPED me and refused to let go, until I finished it in a single sitting. I cannot think of the last time something caused me to lose sleep over how deeply engrossing it was to me, and Obra Dinn achieved it.
And you put together a wonderful video to talk about this masterpiece. However, I do tend to disagree with one thing you said in it - you referred to the "Bargain" chapter being named such from the captain bargaining with the mermaids. I disagree. Captain Witterell was THREATENING the mermaids with death to call off the kraken ravaging the ship, which I would hardly consider bargaining; that's extortion. What I DO consider to be the titular scene of that final chapter is Third Mate Martin Perrot's death scene. He was the one who proposed a bargain in his last moments- not Witterell-requesting the mermaid to guide the Obra Dinn back to England, and granting its release and the remaining shell in exchange.
My boyfriend was visiting me when I first played Obra Dinn, and there were times that I said "I can't cuddle now I've just found a massive lead!" This game really is one of the best games I've ever played, without exaggeration.
Martin could have done it because the captain told him of course. Maybe Witterel changed his mind.
9:13 OMG YES!! If you are going through the game for the first time, keep track of the shoes! Seriously one of the most effective ways of identifying everyone who’s sleeping.
Also watch for the languages, people hang out with those they can understand, and where they sleep.
I've returned to Return of the Obra Dinn multiple times. It just takes a year or so between playthroughs. Or a mind, like mine, that sucks at names. :p
Last week I finished the second time this game and, without the fact that I was one fate of the good ending (fricking chapter 7), its an absolute 10/10. No one talks about it but I love it because you go in 0 expectations and causes such an impact in all his faces that makes it unforgetable. Gold masterpiece!!!
It might also be worth looking at Curse of the Golden Idol. I jumped into it on recommendation for more games like Obra Dinn and it really does scratch a similar "playing the game in your head" itch, with a similar situation of being given a static set of scenarios and your only mission is to find out what the hell happened here
Lovely video. I want to add to one thing you say at the end of the video, about games like Obra Dinn and Outer Wilds not having replay value. In a very strict sense, I suppose this is true. However these games have left such a strong impression on me and others around me, that knowing we can only experience them once, for the first time, that we seek out other ways to re-experience the games. Outer Wilds was shared to me by a friend who had previously completed it, and was shared to me with a message akin to "Because I can't play this again without already knowing everything I've seen, you are going to play it for the first time for me". And so I played Outer Wilds with my friend watching my screen in Discord, talking me through things, letting me explore on my own, and occasionally giving me a nudge if I was lost or asked for help. And after playing through the game I understood what he meant. I wanted more and was saddened that there was no more to discover. I'd seen it all, and that felt bad. However much like my friend I went on to do the same thing to other friends. Obra Dinn was one I shared with whomever might enjoy it. And when they were doubtful I would play the game for them and broadcast it over Discord or Twtich and have the tell me what to do. This really only worked with Obra Dinn and not Outer Wilds as the smaller spaces and more structured gameplay made it much easier to jump from scene to scene and look at everything that caught my co-player's eye.
I got lost reminiscing about these great games. I just wanted to share that perhaps their replay value lies in sharing the experience with those close to you.
This is a wonderful way to look at it. I totally agree too, I bought Outer Wilds for my brother for almost the exact same reason.
This was a really insightful take on the game! Might just give it a play!
I liked and subscribed simply because of the dad coming back with the milk joke.
Good reason 😜
Incredible work, you're going to blow up eventually with these quality essays!
Thanks heaps! Great to hear you liked it!
One thing I must say having juat beat it, reading the different options for cause of death really put some high expectations on some cool varied deaths, when in reality most of the deaths are the same few things. That was a little dissappointing, especially checking off your 6th speared/spiked crewmate.
You know, it says a lot about the quality of a game when my biggest criticism of it is probably the choice to use an X on the indian sailor's bed id plate instead of it being mostly ripped off because it breaks the atmosphere just a little bit.
That's the sad true about mystery games. Once you know the mystery the magic is lost. Like a magic trick. But that doesn't mean that the experience, while it lasted was absolutely wonderful. Like Tunic. That game was absolutely something else. When I tried to replay it, not so much.
I guess my point it we should appreciate things by what they are not by what they are not
Still no one has noted the failure of the blurred pictures. Lucas has conflicting mechanics for pacing. The blurring of the pictures, smoke, and having to wait for the song to end all suggest to the player to slow down. But the shaking of the watch encourages the player to speed up. The curiosity of the scenes also encouraging speed. I have yet to observe any player actually note that they should ignore the shaking and check the state of blurred pictures. Which is an actual rule noted by the game. I have seen people after a bit of coaching to not rush ignore the shaking. When doing that the difficulty pips make a bit more sense. However since these two things are ignored by most players I am not surprised to hear that the pips aren't seen as showing proper difficulty.
Yeah, I agree with this. In retrospect, this could have made a nice discussion, but you have articulated it well here too.
100% agree with you.
The shaking should have been changed, it would be as simple as putting it on a 5 minute timer, so that the player has tine to explore the scene and find the corpse at his own pace, or if they do not find it, to have the shaking pointing it out.
The other thing that could more easyly solve the problem, is comunicating to the player that even if the smoke has put a new "corpse" on the boat, you do not need to see his scene, you can leave the smoke "corpse" there and go back to the scene you were watching earlier.
chants of senaar does a similar thing :D
I've been meaning to get around to playing that! Thanks for mentioning it.
hey, quality stuff! I would love to see some similar videos about Outer Wilds and the Case of the Golden Idol from you! :)
Thanks! I'd love to at the very least do a video on The Outer Wilds eventually, I'd want to do it justice.
good video.
Thanks, glad you liked it!
epic vid
There’s plenty of puzzle games that don’t have combat
Not many that makes the narrative the puzzle. It's usually: you solve a puzzle, you unlock the narrative.
@@dirty_mac he didn’t say that, but even with your criteria; outer wilds, unfinished swan, oxenfree, 12 minutes, gone home, fire watch, forgotten city (minimal combat which doesn’t even need to be in the game imo) I’m sure there’s more, just the ones I’ve played.
"Who wants to play a game that nobody revisits?"
Maybe I'm a bit older than you, but do you now what the best selling PC game in the 90's was (before The Sims)?
It was Myst ... a puzzle game.
Ahoy. Yoy