Excellent video. One thing I would add it that HBA/NIC speed are reported using 10 as a base. So the values here are in MB/s and GB/s. Most people (i think) are interested in true amount of bandwidth when we use 2 as a base. So for example, 750MB is really "750 x (10^6/2^20) = ~715 MiB".
Even with 8 SATA3 SSDs all writing/reading sequentially at full speed and at the same time, you will be barely saturating the PCI2.0 x8 bandwidth (theoretical 500MB/s per drive). Most of these SSDs max out at sequential speeds of around 500-550 MB/s. Excellent video BTW.
yeah... 8x high performing SAS2/SATA3 SSDs will just about hit the limit of PCIe 2.0 x8, so if anything you're not losing out too much even if the PCIe 2.0x8 was a bottleneck. However, another consideration is that the SAS2308 or newer chips have higher IOPS capability than the SAS2008.
@@ArtofServer So you're saying that something like 9207-8i in PCIe 2.0 8x slot will be able to perform overall more IOPS (faster chipset) than 9211-8i in the same slot? I understand that 9207-8i in PCIe gen2 won't be able to leverage full bandwidth.
From my other comments on your other video, I found the LSI2308-8i would run the config utility at boot when I downgraded the card to P19 when installed in the DL380 G7
I don't know if you saw my reply to your other post, but you don't need to downgrade the firmware to P19, and that's not recommended. You just need a LSI ROM downgrade by sub-revision, still part of P20. Get the mptsas2.rom file for version from P20 package version 07.39.00.00 and it should work around the HP issue.
@@ArtofServer On the Broadcom site the only P20 I can download is firmware 20.00.07.00, evidently 20.00.04.00 is what I am after but I am not sure what ROM version is in that zip as I can't fin'd it for download anywhere.
Thanks to your video I bought an HP H240 locally. It costed around the same then others. It like it a lot - no flashing required and best in class performance. Using Linux with btrfs.
Thank you! Be sure to checkout the 2020 edition of this video too: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html And thank you for supporting me through my ebay store! :-)
Instead of using an HBA card, are there motherboards with SAS controllers directly built into them? So instead of (or in addition to) SATA ports, the motherboard will have two or four SFF-8087 ports. And those can be used to connect to a backplane or to SATA drives with a breakout cable? Thanks in advance.
Yes, in fact my channel has a few motherboard videos with that type of configuration. going off memory, there was the X9DRH-7F, and X9DRD-LN4F I think... may be others.
Hello, thank you for the detailed description. Just one question: do hba mode cards use battery backup to deal with write hole in case of power loss?. Thank you!
No, HBA mode doesn't cache data so there's no need for battery backup for cache. The write hole problem is only present with certain types of RAID technologies and specific modes. However, keep in mind that the cache in the drives is not protected.
@@ArtofServer thank you for your reply!. I have an r610 with perc6/i. I guess I will configure raid10 and use openmediavault / ext4 rather than truenas/zfs and a backup on a separate pc running rsync to check for inconsistencies. Congratulations for a great job on your channel!
Love your videos. I just got my hands on 2x H240 cards, you briefly mention them in the video but don't give much detail. I can't figure out how to put them into HBA mode? Is there a write-up or video somewhere? I also noticed in your ebay store it said you install firmware 6.60? Is there something wrong with firmware 7.0?
Thanks! :-) You need to install the HP SSACLI tool. Then run the ... "modify raidmode=off" command. I don't have a vid explaining it, but if you read the tool's user guide, you should see it. The cards I currently sell in my store have firmware version 7.00. The previous ones had 6.60.
@@ArtofServer Great, thanks for the info. I ended up finding the USB bootable HP software for the cards. It allows setting the HBA mode and power settings from the GUI. I flashed 6.6 firmware in ubuntu but will go ahead and update to 7.00 since you use it.
Be sure to checkout the 2020 Edition of this video as it has some more up to date information. I'm not familiar with that particular Adaptec SAS expander so I can't really comment on that. The SAS protocols are standardized, so the likelihood of compatibility is high between different vendors. But, there have been cases were some incompatibilities exist.
Thanks so much, I'm a curious workstation /cheap home server guy , your channel is a godsend for demystifying this space. One question i have is im building an old HP Z800 Windows 10 pro is running on a SSD but ive got a big SAS hard disc I'm thinking of adding as bulk storage, if I use SAS 9211-8i PCI Express (PCIe)-to-Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) host bus adapter (HBA) to connect the SAS drive can it co-exist with windows running on the 2.5 inch SSD?
@@ArtofServer Thank you for your response. It makes sense that a portion of the SAS connector must rotate the spinning disc. One cable for data transfer from HDD to HBA. Another for power from PSU to HDD. This is what I remember for SATA. Thank you for your video content.
you will probably want to watch this: ua-cam.com/video/Lj_FfdPfYM4/v-deo.html and maybe the entire series: ua-cam.com/play/PL28eVGz5vFQ9hUBeeg5bxj-s0IeitoGIb.html
Thank you for the suggestion! I don't think there is a "typical" setup, which is what makes this space so interesting! However, I will be making some videos showing how to setup certain model servers in IT mode for storage server builds.
Art of Server I guess for people who are just getting into the game reviewing example systems help people learn and understand. It makes for good content too. Doing a review and breakdown of the small home lab setup to the enterprise setup!!!
I did update this video in 2020 here: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html But I don't have any updates since. There's not a lot of advantages of using the latest SAS controllers unless you're using SAS-3 SSDs. And since the industry is moving towards NVMe for fast storage, that leaves SAS mostly with spinning HDDs for cheap bulk storage, in which case, SAS-2 hardware is good enough for spinning HDDs.
I'm confused about something, my motherboard has a SAS3008, if I use only 1 cable (4 lanes?) SFF-8643 , and plug it to a huge array, let's say 16 normal hard drives. I imagine, it will have the expander to connect the 16. How will the performance look like? 16 HD at 100MB/s = 1600MB/s all that through one SFF-8643 ? is that right? if using only 1 SFF-8643 , I will only worry when I start getting close to 4GB/sec, something like 40 HD. Am I understanding properly?
That might depend on your SAS expander. If it is a SAS-3 expander, the link between the expander and HBA will be SAS-3 or 12Gbps per link, so 48Gbps per cable, or 6GBytes/sec per cable. The fastest HDDs available today max out at around 2Gbps, or 250MBytes/s at the outer edge of the platter going sequentially, and much less at the inner part or if there's increased latency due to random I/o. You would need about 24 HDDs reading sequentially at the edge of platter to hit the SAS-3 HBA/Expander link limit.
Hello friend, I wanted to ask you a question, I have an HP DC7900CMT and I wanted to test if the sas controller that I have in my Dell T5600 worked and the HP didn't even start. The controller is a Perc H310. Do you think that if I put an HP controller or others it can work? Thanks if you answer me. Greetings from Spain. Pedro
Thanks for the question. I'm not familiar with the DC7900CMT so I don't know. I don't see many SAS enclosures that are "vendor locked" these days. So the problem might be something else...
@@ArtofServer you didnt talk about the capacity of drive they support. some card i know dont support more then 2TB. i need one for windows and im having a tough time looking for the right card.
I am so annoyed by a card i bought on ebay. It's an LSI 9201 SAS2 Meteor ROC card and I cant figure out how to get it to work. No hard drives sahow up in device manager or windows partition when I connect them with breakaway cables to the LSI card. There is no BIOS that appears for it on boot. ive searched everywhere and it's really annoying me that it doesn't work via plug and play.
If you have a SAS expander backplane, make sure it's a sas-3 expander chip. If you have a direct attached backplane, then it should work at SAS-3 speeds as long as HBA and storage device can handle SAS-3.
Is it ok to run these in x4 mode pcie with spinning drives? I already have an lsi-9201-8i from your store. Looking to buy a 9207 for pcie 3.0 spec but still limited to x4 lanes. Thanks
yes, any of these PCIe cards can run at x1,x2,x4, or x8. of course, there will be limitations on I/O bandwidth based on how many PCIe lanes you have available. for spinning HDD use, you only need about 16Gbps, so PCIe 2.0 x4 is actually just enough. if you upgrade to a PCIe 3.0 9207-8i card, you'll have about 32Gbps in PCIe 3.0 x4.
Hi! Please be sure to checkout the 2020 edition of this video too. But no, I do not include cables with the HBA cards I sell because I believe everyone's situation is unique. As a computer enthusiast, I rather not sell "generic" solution, and instead, I offer a video on my channel on how to choose the right cable for your application and I have a SAS cable section in my store that has a variety of cables with different connectors and lengths, etc. that someone can choose from.
@@BIGNEAL Were you not able to decide after watching these (this and or the 2020 edition) videos? There's no one answer for all, so I recommend going over the 2020 edition video.
Hi there. Sorry for the novice question but this really is a new dive into servers as a pet project for home during lockdown. I bought myself a dell t310 to learn the real basics and almost immediately got stuck with software hardware issues. I am looking at freenas to keep it cheap but I have a perc 6i card installed. After learning too many acronyms, is the IT flashed H200 the way to go in order to get freenas to see the individual SAS drives and also get passed the 2Tb limit? Sorry, I did say real newbie, but if we dont learn we dont grow. Thanks.
There are many IT mode HBA SAS controllers that work with FreeNAS. I talked about them in this video, but also checkout the 2020 Edition of this video here: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html Also, you should watch the 2TB Limit video too: ua-cam.com/video/u55vIGMzzKw/v-deo.html
Great Job. Can you advice cables required to interface 4 NVMe drives to LSI 9400-16i SAS Controller on Supermicro 6048R-E1CR36N with Backplane 12 Bays BPN-SAS3-826EL1-N4. The SFF-8643 Black connector on this backplane is it the same as the NVMe connector on the same Backplane? meaning can I use an SFF-8643 to SFF-8643 cable to connect the LSI 9400-16i Ports 1&2 to the NVMe ports on the Backplane Thanks in advance
I bought a sas card from a different shop years ago. and it did not have drivers for xp, either 32 or 64 i forget which now. i'd still like one for my old machine.
Yeah, unfortunately I'm not a windows person so I don't know anything about windows driver support. Maybe it's time to upgrade to win10? I know I have customers who use win10 with my HBA cards just fine.
Hi, Today I bought the SAS for H200 cables from your store on eBay ... I will buy the H200 from an acquaintance, however he has the H200 IT Mode low profile and the full height ... Which one should I buy for the Dell R710 ?? Thanks in advance for the answer ...
If you want to use the H200 in the R710 integrated slot, make sure the card is modified with the correct subsystem ID like my cards have. In that case, you don't need the bracket. Watch the 2nd video in my R710 series and you will see what I mean.
i'm using a dell perc h200 controller, this is my first time dealing with raid controllers and sas. it has two sas drives on one of its ports and 2 connector on that cable is empty. if i buy two ssd drives and connect to that part (that already utilizes two sas drives) would that be a bottleneck? would I benefit from purchasing another cable and using the second sas port for the ssd raid? or should i not raid ssds at all? thanks in advance for your input!
I got H310 card. I am not that much of IT guy but i manged to run it on desktop PC. I am willing to attach 8x drives. The datasheet says it can support more than 2TB capacity but how much is not clear. Can i use 8TB of 8 drives or should i stick with 4TB drives. i am using SAS to sata connector.
If you are making a NAS with a 10Gb/s NIC, is there any benefit at all to go for a higher end card? it seems even the 2008 series will saturate a 10G nic no problem
It depends on your workload. If you're going to saturate that 10Gbps NIC with sequential I/O streams, then you're likely just using spinning HDDs, in that case the LSI SAS2008 will handle that easily. If you're doing a lot of small random I/O over that 10Gbps, then you're more likely to want to build your NAS with SSDs, in which case you might be looking at the LSI SAS2308 or one of the SAS3 12Gbps options. but yes, I've saturated 10Gbps NICs easily even with the LSI SAS2008 using 8 or more HDDs.
The SAS2308 has 8x SAS lanes, so directly attached it would only be able to connect to 8 HDDs. It can however control up to 256 HDDs, but that requires a SAS expander. For SAS expanders, check out my video on the IBM 46M0997.
There's never a 100% sure way to tell; some counterfeiters might go to great lengths to copy the real thing. That said, most counterfeit cards I've seen show that they take shortcuts. One of the easiest giveaway signs is the lack of the "LSI" silkscreen logo on the PCB. Besides that, it's a little harder to tell if you don't already have a genuine card in your hands; things like shorter/smaller heatsinks, or certain chips/ICs with printing instead of embossed logos, heatsinks attached with plastic pins instead of brass/metal pins, etc. One way to improve your chances of avoiding counterfeits, is to go with an OEM branded card; for some reason the counterfeiters will go after LSI or Intel cards, but i have never seen the branded Dell, HP, IBM, counterfeit cards.
Please explain to me is it possible with SAS controllers to connect my SAS hard disk of 16 TB on SATA Motherboard, and if it's possible to read my disk can you tell me what exactly type of controller will do do work- can you suggest some example?
Yes, any SAS-2 controller should be able to work with SAS HDDs of 16TB size. Even SAS-1 can work too, but it is better to use SAS-2. For example, consider the LSI 9211-8i card here: ebay.to/33C57hU You will also need the cables to connect from that card, which uses SFF8087 connection, to your SAS HDDs, which needs SFF8482 connector. See my "How to select SAS cable" video here: ua-cam.com/video/OW419HwU7sg/v-deo.html
@Stole - that's a big unknown. Seagate SAS-3 drives have had firmware bugs where they won't negotiate down to SAS-2 and will only work with SAS-3 controllers even though they can never benefit from SAS-3 speeds. with Seagate, I can't suggest anything because their stuff just isn't reliable.
*Question near the end of my comment* I have a PowerEdge 1950 1U server i've recently loaded FreeNAS on. I am learning I need an HBA card to allow ZFS direct access to the disks, thanks to your video it explains theres 4 SAS lanes per port. So I plan to connect 8 SATA NAS Drives (ironwolfs). I have an available PCI X8 slot on this server. A few questions I have are: Are there cards with ports facing out towards the back for external use? I can't run 3.5" drives in this 1U, i'd need to have them external. How am I to connect these drives? I'm assuming there's some SAS to sata adapter splitting a single cable into 4 SATA (per sas lane)? As mentioned in the video mechanical drives max out at roughly 250MB/s or so, so for my needs a 2008 based controller seems fine. What is most affordable to fit my needs and works well with FreeNAS, while allowing me to connect these drives externally? Please let me know if further info is needed, very eager to get this working. Thanks in advance
Yes, there are cards with external ports. My eBay store has a wide selection of HBA IT mode cards in various configurations, including external cards, so please take a look here: www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver/HBA-IT-mode-controllers/_i.html?_storecat=23844485012 I might even dare say that I have the greatest selection of HBA cards on eBay. You'll need external SAS cables to a "disk shelf" or also known as JBOD chassis. I talk about SAS cable selection in this video here: ua-cam.com/video/OW419HwU7sg/v-deo.html SAS controllers can accept SATA drives; it's just the reverse isn't true, SATA controllers cannot accept SAS drives. So, if you have SAS controller/backplane/cables, you can plug a SATA HDD in it no problem and it will work. As part of the SAS specification, there is something called SATL (SAS ATA Translation Layer) which translates ATA commands (SATA) to SCSI commands (SAS). And you are correct, with mechanical HDDs, any SAS2008 based HBA card will do just fine. I have a benchmark video showing that with 16x HDDs, the faster SAS2308 makes virtually no difference here: ua-cam.com/video/LMPq1B31cmE/v-deo.html Hope that helps! :-)
I have 2 HBA LSI cards. when I set my FreeNas I used just one and then and expander. I'm now building a new Freenas box with supermicro case and mother board. and was thinking if I want faster data transfer, and instead of using the Expander and if I should use 3 HBA cards so all my drives could have full bandwidth. mother board is a Supermicro X9DRi-LN4F+ with 2 2670 processors. Should I put the cards in were on CPU handles all the cards, and put my 10 GB card on the other CPU. I looked at the mother board and looks like CPU 1 runs 3 of the PCIE slots and every thing else were as CPU 2 has only the 3 PCIE slots and the memory and nothing else. was thinking of using that CPU for all 3 cards, and the main cpu 1 for networking ect. What are your thoughts.
@@ArtofServer HDD I have 12 4 TB drives. I will be installing TrueNas, backing up the data I have right now on the drives and rebuild the POOL to were I have all 12 drives in one vdev were as I now have 3 vdev's and have 2 drives set up that can fail before I lose all data. were as right now its set up if I was to lose 2 drives in on vdev I lose it all. so want to change that. Than later down the line will get 12 more drives to create a new pool on the system. I have 2 ssd's I use for boot, and 2 more for cash.
Quick question as a complete server noob, if I may? My Dell R720 server is a 12-bay server, and I've noticed the backplane has two cables coming from it with SFF 8087 connectors that's connected into the existing RAID card. Can I still use an HBA with 2 SFF 8087 ports, like the LSI 9211-8i and still be able to use all 12 drives? Hope I'm making sense...
Your R720 has a backplane with a SAS expander chipset that allows 8x SAS lanes to connect with all 12 HDD slots and even the 2x 2.5" slots if you have the rear flexbay backplane. Without the SAS expander, you would only be able to connect with 8x HDDs with 8x SAS lanes. Hope that helps 😊
No, the H330 has the "internal" version of that connector, which is SFF8643. The SFF8644 is an external connector, which might be why it is hard to find it with SFF8087 (though, not impossible, and not recommended for reasons mentioned in this video).
@@ArtofServer Funny a pdf from Dell says "Two x4 internal mini-SAS HD SFF8644", so I also thought it was strange to list SFF8644 as internal. Thank you for the quick reply and clearing things up.
I'm looking at building a low power NAS with a HP H220 LSI 9207-8i P20. Does this card have a configuration option for staggering the drive spin up at boot?
If you're looking for low power NAS, I would recommend getting a card based on SAS2008 chipset instead, especially if you'll be using HDDs only. The SAS2008 runs at a much slower clock speed, so uses less power, and generates less heat. The SAS2308 uses more power, generates more heat. I believe both have the options in the LSI BIOS program to delay drive spin up at boot.
Very nice and informative video....some notices / questions -can they support in ir mode 2 different raid set ups lets say 2 ssd's in mirror and 3-5hdds in raid5 I am sure this doent play a role if they are going to be used as pass through hbas. - the last on down (left side) hba because I couldnt hear clearly in the video is a Dell PercH310? (I have one and I m pretty sure none recommends it quite the opposite - also it doesnt pass through trim commands) -I noticed you mention that thet come pre flashed with IT V20 firm. I cam across many posts complaining of broken arrays and low iops in general. Most if not all problems solved flashing with IT v19 firm. V20 not so compatible with zfs ??? -What about trim commands? Do all of them pass through the command both in IR and IT mode? Have you tried? Thank you in advance.
thanks for watching! to answer your questions: 1) IR mode firmware for SAS2008 is very basic RAID, and only supports RAID0/1/1e/10. not RAID5. i don't usually use the IR firmware, so I can't say too much about it. 2) yes, there is a H310 in this video. I don't really recommend using H310 with SSDs in the first place. I also don't really know about TRIM support, as most enterprise SSDs seem to take care of garage collection automatically and i don't usually need to use TRIM. For TRIM to work, I would image you need firmware support at the SAS/ATA Translation Layer. 3) i think most of the mentions about problems with P20 firmware are very old. the recommended current firmware is P20 and has been stable, but it might depend on your OSes driver version. if you're using an older OS with LSI driver that matches P19, then maybe using P19 is better idea. However, with most modern systems, P20 is recommended. 4) like i said, I don't usually have to worry about TRIM with modern enterprise SSDs. i don't know about TRIM support as I have not tried it. hope that helps..
Hi, Thanks for a great information video. So I have 2 Sata 6G SSDs & 11 NAS hhds in my unraid server. Correct me if i'm wrong but the LSI SAS2308 would be the best card to buy due to the fact I have 2 ssd's in my array? Oh i should mention my NAS hhds are Sata 6G as well.
Hi sorry to bother you again, but how can i change my Dell Perch H330 into HBA mode as you stated in the video? When I hit "Apply" after changing "Personality Mode" from "RAID-Mode" to "HBA-Mode" in the bios it says "The requested operation is not possible at this time."
Hmmm ... I don't know about that error. If I had to guess, maybe there is existing raid configuration on the card. Trying clearing the configuration, and try again.
What a great video! I just wish I had found and watched it before getting a Fujitsu D3216-A12 LSI MegaRAID SAS 1GB Cache 12GB (=9361-8I). Do you know what LSI chipset this is and if it is possible to crossflash these to IT mode? Do you perform flashing services?... Looking to consolidate +10 spinning HDDs and 4 SSDs into a single box and was eager. I will look in your store for a 2308 chipset based i16 card as I can still return the Fujitsu card which I presume is in IR mode...
I believe the 9361-8i is based on LSI SAS3108 chipset. I have not tried to cross-flash those, only the SAS3008 chipset cards. It may or may not be possible, but I don't know for sure. No, at this time I do not offer firmware flashing services on a case by case basis. It's a lot less time consuming for me to do firmware flashing in large batches. unfortunately, I don't know of any "internal" SAS2308 cards with 16 ports. there are external versions with 16 ports, and internal versions with only 8 ports. thanks for watching and welcome to my channel! :-)
small question: lets say I want to build a 2U server with 20-24 SATA SSD's for ZFS, which card should I pick? (CPU will be Ryzen so PCIe 3.0 is perfectly ok)
I think the best choice will be the cards based on LSI SAS2308 chipset. I would not spend the extra on the 12Gbps cards (SAS3008) as with SATA you won't benefit from that. And I would get the SAS2308 over the SAS2008 for 2 reasons: 1) SAS2308 supports PCIe3.0, and 2) the SAS2308 is faster than SAS2008 which should help with handling the higher IOPS of SSDs vs HDDs. Hope that helps! :-)
Depends on how much bandwidth you have between the HBA and the SAS expander. For an example benchmark on a SAS2008 HBA with SAS-2 expander, checkout my other video here: ua-cam.com/video/BvL70tEW3VU/v-deo.html
Thanks for this video! Kinda helpful now that I'm exploring more slots on my unRaid build, and also potentially adding a SAS3 drive onto my Windows PC.
Have you tried getting the H240 to work with the IBM46M0997 expander, by any chance? I'm trying to set up this connection under Linux but no luck so far. Wondering if it's even technically possible.
The HP H240 is a SAS-3 12Gbps card, so it probably isn't the best choice for a SAS-2 expander like the IBM 46M0997. Is the storage device you are using also SAS-3 or is it a SAS-2 device?
@@ArtofServer Actually just SATA drives at the moment via a breakout cable. (I don't really need SAS3, but I happened to win this H240 in an eBay auction.) I figured that the connection would be auto-negotiated between the two, but the expander doesn't seem to receive any usable signal at all - two orange LEDs is all I'm getting. I checked the working of both cards separately, tested different cables, flashed the latest firmware for both, tried changing some settings with HP's SSA, but to no avail. I think I'll sell it and buy myself an H220.
@@naamval Yeah, I suspect it's just a SAS-2 vs SAS-3 issue. SAS-3 introduced independent link speed negotiation, but the SAS-2 expander probably wants to negotiate end-to-end link speed. You've confirmed both cards work fine when paired with the right components, so I think it's just a compatibility issue. Highly doubt IBM and HP would spend the time to update their firmware to fix this issue. That H240 is a great HBA by the way, if you plan to use it for SAS-3 storage devices... I've used it to build all flash SAS-3 storage servers and it's a true HBA, providing the generic SCSI (/dev/sg*) device nodes and everything.
@@rezarohoman6201 There are a few options for you. One of them I don't have. If you're short on PCIe slots, you'll probably want a LSI 9201-16i... but unfortunately, I don't sell this card right now; it is hard to find genuine ones on eBay. another option is to get 2x 9201-8i (or 9210-8i, 9240-8i, H310, H200) .. these cards have 2 SFF-8087 ports each, providing 8x SAS lanes, and with 2 cards gives you 16 SAS lanes. You can find these cards in my store here: www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver/HBA-IT-mode-controllers/_i.html?_storecat=23844485012 a third option is 1x HBA + SAS-2 expander as I show in my other video here: ua-cam.com/video/qccpopxc_Uo/v-deo.html you can buy that HBA and SAS-2 expander here: www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-9240-8i-with-LSI-9210-8i-FW-6Gbps-SAS-HBA-P20-IT-Mode-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID/163600383999 and www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ServeRAID-16-Port-6Gbps-SAS-2-SATA-Expansion-Adapter-46M0997-Firmware-634A/163321588238 Hope that helps! :-)
@@ArtofServer I would like to do this as well, any help? I just purchased some parts from you last week and now that they have arrived I am a little stuck. I am trying to get two 4tb HP/Seagate SAS drives that I got a deal on running on an HP EliteDesk 800 G2 SFF. I have the HP H240 Card and need some info on how to set this up. Thanks
@@DFWCASSANOVA In the About tab of my channel page, you can find a way to reach me directly. Be sure to provide some model numbers of the drives you're using and we can discuss from there. :-)
Nice ...and very well explained . I have a asus sabertooth Mark 2 I7 7740X and purchased a Dell H310 (IT-mode) Adapter 8-Port 6Gb/s SAS SATA Raid Card . My main use for this card is to use it as a normal controller to add more storage . I have ssds and other sata 3 hard drives . And running windows 10 pro and steam. Do i have to do anything else special except install the card and hook my drives up ? I was watching youre videos and others and it seems like this is already setup to use as normal as non raid with being able to use 8 drives if need be so im hoping to be able to plug in and play .... Sound somewhat right?
What would you recommend for external HBAs? I got a powervault MD1000 I'd like to use with the R710 I got, and it has 2x SFF-8470 12gbps connections. www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/povw/powervault-md1000/techspecs
@GrumpyTanker : hi there! Yeah, I use to have a MD1000 too! Keep in mind, the expander chip on the MD1000 has some performance limitations, so I wouldn't go out and buy the fastest HBA for it, as it would just be wasted on the MD1000. That said, any SAS2008 based external HBA should work as long as you have the right cables. So, basically, look for something like a 9201-16e or equivalent, then get a SFF-8088->SFF-8470 cable. Are you planning to run the md1k in unified or split mode?
@@ArtofServer thanks for the reply! I'm not quite sure yet. As I understand it, Unified would allow me to use a single cable to see all the drives. I don't know if there are any performance advantages to running split and having two cables running back to the same server. Would having both cables in split mode run to the same card improve performance or would two separate cards be required? Lemme know if you have the recommended card and cables on your ebay store.
@@grumpytanker8258 In general, it's hard to get a lot of performance out of the md1k due to the limitations of the expander chipset in those EMM modules. yes, if you go split, and run 8x SAS lanes, you can get a little more out of the system and you don't need a 2nd HBA, as even a single SAS2008 HBA will have more performance than you will ever get out of md1k. going totally off memory from 10yrs ago, i think i maxed out the md1k at around 600~700MB/sec sequential I/O. if you see the benchmark video here: ua-cam.com/video/BvL70tEW3VU/v-deo.html , you'll see that a single SAS2008 HBA can do near 2GB/sec sequential I/O.
@@grumpytanker8258 oh, yes, i do have an external HBA in my store. see here: www.ebay.com/itm/LSI-9201-16e-6Gbps-16-lane-external-SAS-HBA-P20-IT-Mode-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID-NoROM/162872615455 Also, feel free to look around the HBA section of my store here: www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver/HBA-IT-mode-controllers/_i.html?_storecat=23844485012
@@ArtofServer Is there a big advantage to PCI-E 2.0 vs 3.0 for this card? Since it has 4 ports, if I theoretically hook up a second MD1000 (or something else, or 3 arrays), I guess it could get close to saturating the 4GB/s bandwidth. Probably just as price/performance efficient to add a dedicated card at that point. Just thinking out loud. I was also looking at jamming an MD1200 controller, which is SFF-8088 and 6GB/s into the MD1000, but it looks like the 1200 controller has an extra set of connectors. Looks like it might physically still fit, but probably wouldn't work right. www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-POWERVAULT-MD1000-SAS-SATA-CONTROLLER-EMM-JT517-AMP01-SIM/202127145905?epid=907324914&hash=item2f0fb77bb1:g:GncAAOSwlMFZJFxK:rk:1:pf:0 www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-POWERVAULT-MD1200-MD1220-EMM-6GB-S-SAS-CONTROLLER-MODULE-W307K/332862810033?hash=item4d802b67b1:g:jboAAOSwBVdb20N8:rk:2:pf:0 Thanks for the help buddy, gonna order the LSI-9201 you suggested.
I'm not a Windows person so I haven't done so myself, but I know several of my past customers have successfully used my IT mode HBAs for storage spaces.
@@ArtofServer - I have used storage spaces and was disappointed with the performance of the RAID equivalent that it offers, but it runs quite fast when you have the disks configured as mirrors. I still have a preference of using ZFS. There is a project that is trying to bring ZFS to Windos, and that would be nice: github.com/openzfsonwindows/ZFSin
Well thought out and organized. Thanks a ton for breaking this all down!
no problem. glad it helped!
Excellent video. One thing I would add it that HBA/NIC speed are reported using 10 as a base. So the values here are in MB/s and GB/s. Most people (i think) are interested in true amount of bandwidth when we use 2 as a base. So for example, 750MB is really "750 x (10^6/2^20) = ~715 MiB".
Thanks for sharing your tip! Be sure to catch the 2020 edition of this video as it has more up to date infomration!
Even with 8 SATA3 SSDs all writing/reading sequentially at full speed and at the same time, you will be barely saturating the PCI2.0 x8 bandwidth (theoretical 500MB/s per drive). Most of these SSDs max out at sequential speeds of around 500-550 MB/s. Excellent video BTW.
yeah... 8x high performing SAS2/SATA3 SSDs will just about hit the limit of PCIe 2.0 x8, so if anything you're not losing out too much even if the PCIe 2.0x8 was a bottleneck. However, another consideration is that the SAS2308 or newer chips have higher IOPS capability than the SAS2008.
@@ArtofServer So you're saying that something like 9207-8i in PCIe 2.0 8x slot will be able to perform overall more IOPS (faster chipset) than 9211-8i in the same slot? I understand that 9207-8i in PCIe gen2 won't be able to leverage full bandwidth.
6:20 12 is 8 I assume? Thanks for your time and effort.
Yeah, thanks for catching it.
From my other comments on your other video, I found the LSI2308-8i would run the config utility at boot when I downgraded the card to P19 when installed in the DL380 G7
I don't know if you saw my reply to your other post, but you don't need to downgrade the firmware to P19, and that's not recommended. You just need a LSI ROM downgrade by sub-revision, still part of P20. Get the mptsas2.rom file for version from P20 package version 07.39.00.00 and it should work around the HP issue.
@@ArtofServer I missed the reply sorry - I'll go back and check it out. Thanks!
@@ArtofServer On the Broadcom site the only P20 I can download is firmware 20.00.07.00, evidently 20.00.04.00 is what I am after but I am not sure what ROM version is in that zip as I can't fin'd it for download anywhere.
Got it all sorted with the help from your videos. Thanks!
Thanks to your video I bought an HP H240 locally. It costed around the same then others. It like it a lot - no flashing required and best in class performance. Using Linux with btrfs.
came here from your ebay store, awesome video!
super useful. Thanks for the video. Are you sending stuff to the Netherlands?
Yes I am!
Oh wow I was looking at ur product last night, now ur in my recommended!
thanks! :-)
Very informative, decided to purchase from you based on your knowledge. Thanks
Thank you! Be sure to checkout the 2020 edition of this video too: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html
And thank you for supporting me through my ebay store! :-)
Instead of using an HBA card, are there motherboards with SAS controllers directly built into them? So instead of (or in addition to) SATA ports, the motherboard will have two or four SFF-8087 ports. And those can be used to connect to a backplane or to SATA drives with a breakout cable? Thanks in advance.
Yes, in fact my channel has a few motherboard videos with that type of configuration. going off memory, there was the X9DRH-7F, and X9DRD-LN4F I think... may be others.
Great, will check them out. Thanks!
@@ArtofServeris it possible to boot into sas drive with those cards mentioned in the video even if my mobo have no sas controler?
Thanks. This explained everything so well. Good on you.
Glad it was helpful!
amazing information in your video!
Thanks! Be sure to check out the 2020 version of this video. Thanks for watching!
Hello, thank you for the detailed description. Just one question: do hba mode cards use battery backup to deal with write hole in case of power loss?. Thank you!
No, HBA mode doesn't cache data so there's no need for battery backup for cache. The write hole problem is only present with certain types of RAID technologies and specific modes. However, keep in mind that the cache in the drives is not protected.
@@ArtofServer thank you for your reply!. I have an r610 with perc6/i. I guess I will configure raid10 and use openmediavault / ext4 rather than truenas/zfs and a backup on a separate pc running rsync to check for inconsistencies. Congratulations for a great job on your channel!
Love your videos. I just got my hands on 2x H240 cards, you briefly mention them in the video but don't give much detail.
I can't figure out how to put them into HBA mode? Is there a write-up or video somewhere?
I also noticed in your ebay store it said you install firmware 6.60? Is there something wrong with firmware 7.0?
Thanks! :-)
You need to install the HP SSACLI tool. Then run the ... "modify raidmode=off" command. I don't have a vid explaining it, but if you read the tool's user guide, you should see it.
The cards I currently sell in my store have firmware version 7.00. The previous ones had 6.60.
@@ArtofServer Great, thanks for the info. I ended up finding the USB bootable HP software for the cards. It allows setting the HBA mode and power settings from the GUI.
I flashed 6.6 firmware in ubuntu but will go ahead and update to 7.00 since you use it.
thanks for your video,I will pick dell H310 for my disks
Love this video thank you! Just curious, would an Adaptec AEC-82885T SAS expander card work with any of the LSI SAS3008 cards you show here?
Be sure to checkout the 2020 Edition of this video as it has some more up to date information.
I'm not familiar with that particular Adaptec SAS expander so I can't really comment on that. The SAS protocols are standardized, so the likelihood of compatibility is high between different vendors. But, there have been cases were some incompatibilities exist.
@@ArtofServer Thank you!
Thanks so much, I'm a curious workstation /cheap home server guy , your channel is a godsend for demystifying this space. One question i have is im building an old HP Z800 Windows 10 pro is running on a SSD but ive got a big SAS hard disc I'm thinking of adding as bulk storage, if I use SAS 9211-8i PCI Express (PCIe)-to-Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) host bus adapter (HBA) to connect the SAS drive can it co-exist with windows running on the 2.5 inch SSD?
So you just connect the SAS drives to the HBA? No PSU connection?
The SAS drives need power. If using a cable, the cable usually has power input headers that need to be connected to a power source.
@@ArtofServer Thank you for your response. It makes sense that a portion of the SAS connector must rotate the spinning disc. One cable for data transfer from HDD to HBA. Another for power from PSU to HDD. This is what I remember for SATA. Thank you for your video content.
which controller card you recommend me to run proxmox on my dell r710????
you will probably want to watch this: ua-cam.com/video/Lj_FfdPfYM4/v-deo.html
and maybe the entire series:
ua-cam.com/play/PL28eVGz5vFQ9hUBeeg5bxj-s0IeitoGIb.html
Excellent video! Thank you for making it!
thank you for watching!
I would love to see you do a video of a typical setup/configurations
Thank you for the suggestion! I don't think there is a "typical" setup, which is what makes this space so interesting! However, I will be making some videos showing how to setup certain model servers in IT mode for storage server builds.
Art of Server I guess for people who are just getting into the game reviewing example systems help people learn and understand. It makes for good content too. Doing a review and breakdown of the small home lab setup to the enterprise setup!!!
Art of Server I also wanted to thank you for the advice you gave me the other day on adding additional storage to my small home lab setup!
@@AJ-pz8ug of course! :-)
How do i choose a raid card for gen 8 server as they so many
Any updates on the chipsets, like PCI 4.0?
I did update this video in 2020 here: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html
But I don't have any updates since. There's not a lot of advantages of using the latest SAS controllers unless you're using SAS-3 SSDs. And since the industry is moving towards NVMe for fast storage, that leaves SAS mostly with spinning HDDs for cheap bulk storage, in which case, SAS-2 hardware is good enough for spinning HDDs.
I'm confused about something, my motherboard has a SAS3008, if I use only 1 cable (4 lanes?) SFF-8643 , and plug it to a huge array, let's say 16 normal hard drives. I imagine, it will have the expander to connect the 16. How will the performance look like? 16 HD at 100MB/s = 1600MB/s all that through one SFF-8643 ? is that right? if using only 1 SFF-8643 , I will only worry when I start getting close to 4GB/sec, something like 40 HD. Am I understanding properly?
That might depend on your SAS expander. If it is a SAS-3 expander, the link between the expander and HBA will be SAS-3 or 12Gbps per link, so 48Gbps per cable, or 6GBytes/sec per cable.
The fastest HDDs available today max out at around 2Gbps, or 250MBytes/s at the outer edge of the platter going sequentially, and much less at the inner part or if there's increased latency due to random I/o. You would need about 24 HDDs reading sequentially at the edge of platter to hit the SAS-3 HBA/Expander link limit.
Hello No word can describe your Stunning video ❤️
Thank you! very kind of you to say that. Hope you saw the 2020 updated edition of this video: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html
Hello friend, I wanted to ask you a question, I have an HP DC7900CMT and I wanted to test if the sas controller that I have in my Dell T5600 worked and the HP didn't even start. The controller is a Perc H310. Do you think that if I put an HP controller or others it can work?
Thanks if you answer me.
Greetings from Spain.
Pedro
Thanks for the question. I'm not familiar with the DC7900CMT so I don't know. I don't see many SAS enclosures that are "vendor locked" these days. So the problem might be something else...
Excellent video, thanks a lot
Glad you liked it!
This is VERY useful.
Thanks for sharing your insights :)
Thanks! Make sure to check out the new 2020 edition of this video.
@@ArtofServer you didnt talk about the capacity of drive they support. some card i know dont support more then 2TB. i need one for windows and im having a tough time looking for the right card.
I am so annoyed by a card i bought on ebay. It's an LSI 9201 SAS2 Meteor ROC card and I cant figure out how to get it to work. No hard drives sahow up in device manager or windows partition when I connect them with breakaway cables to the LSI card. There is no BIOS that appears for it on boot. ive searched everywhere and it's really annoying me that it doesn't work via plug and play.
How do you know if your Supermicro backplane can handle a SAS3 HBA???
If you have a SAS expander backplane, make sure it's a sas-3 expander chip. If you have a direct attached backplane, then it should work at SAS-3 speeds as long as HBA and storage device can handle SAS-3.
I want to connect 8 new drives on my windows 10 pc running ryzen5. Which card shall i get? I need to run the drives as individual drives.
Is it ok to run these in x4 mode pcie with spinning drives? I already have an lsi-9201-8i from your store. Looking to buy a 9207 for pcie 3.0 spec but still limited to x4 lanes. Thanks
yes, any of these PCIe cards can run at x1,x2,x4, or x8. of course, there will be limitations on I/O bandwidth based on how many PCIe lanes you have available. for spinning HDD use, you only need about 16Gbps, so PCIe 2.0 x4 is actually just enough. if you upgrade to a PCIe 3.0 9207-8i card, you'll have about 32Gbps in PCIe 3.0 x4.
@@ArtofServer thank you, I will be buying another 9207 from you for peace of mind.
I know this video is old but do any of the cards on your eBay store come with cables?
Hi! Please be sure to checkout the 2020 edition of this video too.
But no, I do not include cables with the HBA cards I sell because I believe everyone's situation is unique. As a computer enthusiast, I rather not sell "generic" solution, and instead, I offer a video on my channel on how to choose the right cable for your application and I have a SAS cable section in my store that has a variety of cables with different connectors and lengths, etc. that someone can choose from.
@@ArtofServer ok cool what card do I get for r710/720 for was drives I want to use IT mode for freenas/Unraid
@@BIGNEAL Were you not able to decide after watching these (this and or the 2020 edition) videos? There's no one answer for all, so I recommend going over the 2020 edition video.
Hi there. Sorry for the novice question but this really is a new dive into servers as a pet project for home during lockdown.
I bought myself a dell t310 to learn the real basics and almost immediately got stuck with software hardware issues. I am looking at freenas to keep it cheap but I have a perc 6i card installed. After learning too many acronyms, is the IT flashed H200 the way to go in order to get freenas to see the individual SAS drives and also get passed the 2Tb limit?
Sorry, I did say real newbie, but if we dont learn we dont grow.
Thanks.
Oh great vid! Its another level of knowlege I think I understand.
There are many IT mode HBA SAS controllers that work with FreeNAS. I talked about them in this video, but also checkout the 2020 Edition of this video here: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html
Also, you should watch the 2TB Limit video too: ua-cam.com/video/u55vIGMzzKw/v-deo.html
Great Job. Can you advice cables required to interface 4 NVMe drives to LSI 9400-16i SAS Controller on Supermicro 6048R-E1CR36N with Backplane 12 Bays BPN-SAS3-826EL1-N4. The SFF-8643 Black connector on this backplane is it the same as the NVMe connector on the same Backplane? meaning can I use an SFF-8643 to SFF-8643 cable to connect the LSI 9400-16i Ports 1&2 to the NVMe ports on the Backplane
Thanks in advance
I bought a sas card from a different shop years ago. and it did not have drivers for xp, either 32 or 64 i forget which now. i'd still like one for my old machine.
It was a SAS LSI Mega 9240-8i . not listed in this video.
Yeah, unfortunately I'm not a windows person so I don't know anything about windows driver support. Maybe it's time to upgrade to win10? I know I have customers who use win10 with my HBA cards just fine.
Hi,
Today I bought the SAS for H200 cables from your store on eBay ... I will buy the H200 from an acquaintance, however he has the H200 IT Mode low profile and the full height ... Which one should I buy for the Dell R710 ??
Thanks in advance for the answer ...
If you want to use the H200 in the R710 integrated slot, make sure the card is modified with the correct subsystem ID like my cards have. In that case, you don't need the bracket. Watch the 2nd video in my R710 series and you will see what I mean.
@@ArtofServer So the diference from low profile and high weight is only the bracket... Ty again..
i'm using a dell perc h200 controller, this is my first time dealing with raid controllers and sas. it has two sas drives on one of its ports and 2 connector on that cable is empty. if i buy two ssd drives and connect to that part (that already utilizes two sas drives) would that be a bottleneck? would I benefit from purchasing another cable and using the second sas port for the ssd raid? or should i not raid ssds at all? thanks in advance for your input!
No, that wouldn't present a bottleneck. The SAS cables each carry 4 SAS lanes.
@@ArtofServer thank you, as far as I understand 2 sas ports equal to 8 total full speed lanes. that's pretty amazing!
cheers!
Great video. Thank you.
Glad you liked it! Be sure the see the 2020 edition which has updated information.
Thank you so much for this video!!
You are so welcome! Be sure to checkout the new 2020 Edition too: ua-cam.com/video/hTbKzQZk21w/v-deo.html
Dang, saw this too late. Already ordered my 9211. If I don't get the IT mode working I'll order one from you.
no problem... good luck! :-)
I got H310 card. I am not that much of IT guy but i manged to run it on desktop PC. I am willing to attach 8x drives. The datasheet says it can support more than 2TB capacity but how much is not clear. Can i use 8TB of 8 drives or should i stick with 4TB drives. i am using SAS to sata connector.
I think you'll want to watch my video on the 2TB limit: ua-cam.com/video/u55vIGMzzKw/v-deo.html
Lsi 9267-8i or 9264-8i, could be upgrade to IT mode firmware?
not that i know of... but i could be wrong.
by any chance do you have any information how to flash a 9240-4i to it mode ?
Sorry, I do not have any video on that topic yet.
@@ArtofServer aight , thanks.
If you are making a NAS with a 10Gb/s NIC, is there any benefit at all to go for a higher end card? it seems even the 2008 series will saturate a 10G nic no problem
It depends on your workload. If you're going to saturate that 10Gbps NIC with sequential I/O streams, then you're likely just using spinning HDDs, in that case the LSI SAS2008 will handle that easily. If you're doing a lot of small random I/O over that 10Gbps, then you're more likely to want to build your NAS with SSDs, in which case you might be looking at the LSI SAS2308 or one of the SAS3 12Gbps options.
but yes, I've saturated 10Gbps NICs easily even with the LSI SAS2008 using 8 or more HDDs.
How many drives does the LSI sas2308 card support? Just 8? Or would it read more?
The SAS2308 has 8x SAS lanes, so directly attached it would only be able to connect to 8 HDDs. It can however control up to 256 HDDs, but that requires a SAS expander. For SAS expanders, check out my video on the IBM 46M0997.
What would be good for 4TB seagate drives in a mainstream desktop pc? I did buy h700 but not having much luck.
what's the model of the Seagate drive? some seagate drives have buggy firmware that have special requirements.
@@ArtofServer Seagate Constellation ES.3 ST4000NM0023
@@Thrakus The H700 should work with that.... if you need an HBA instead, any LSI SAS2008 based HBA should work.
Is there a way to tell if you got an counterfeit HBA than the genuine ones?
There's never a 100% sure way to tell; some counterfeiters might go to great lengths to copy the real thing. That said, most counterfeit cards I've seen show that they take shortcuts. One of the easiest giveaway signs is the lack of the "LSI" silkscreen logo on the PCB. Besides that, it's a little harder to tell if you don't already have a genuine card in your hands; things like shorter/smaller heatsinks, or certain chips/ICs with printing instead of embossed logos, heatsinks attached with plastic pins instead of brass/metal pins, etc. One way to improve your chances of avoiding counterfeits, is to go with an OEM branded card; for some reason the counterfeiters will go after LSI or Intel cards, but i have never seen the branded Dell, HP, IBM, counterfeit cards.
Please explain to me is it possible with SAS controllers to connect my SAS hard disk of 16 TB on SATA Motherboard, and if it's possible to read my disk can you tell me what exactly type of controller will do do work- can you suggest some example?
Yes, any SAS-2 controller should be able to work with SAS HDDs of 16TB size. Even SAS-1 can work too, but it is better to use SAS-2. For example, consider the LSI 9211-8i card here:
ebay.to/33C57hU
You will also need the cables to connect from that card, which uses SFF8087 connection, to your SAS HDDs, which needs SFF8482 connector. See my "How to select SAS cable" video here:
ua-cam.com/video/OW419HwU7sg/v-deo.html
this is the hard Seagate ST16000NM002G Exos 16Tb SAS-12Gbps 7200Rpm 3.5-Inch Hard Drive will work on this controller you suggested to me?
@Stole - that's a big unknown. Seagate SAS-3 drives have had firmware bugs where they won't negotiate down to SAS-2 and will only work with SAS-3 controllers even though they can never benefit from SAS-3 speeds. with Seagate, I can't suggest anything because their stuff just isn't reliable.
*Question near the end of my comment* I have a PowerEdge 1950 1U server i've recently loaded FreeNAS on. I am learning I need an HBA card to allow ZFS direct access to the disks, thanks to your video it explains theres 4 SAS lanes per port. So I plan to connect 8 SATA NAS Drives (ironwolfs). I have an available PCI X8 slot on this server. A few questions I have are: Are there cards with ports facing out towards the back for external use? I can't run 3.5" drives in this 1U, i'd need to have them external. How am I to connect these drives? I'm assuming there's some SAS to sata adapter splitting a single cable into 4 SATA (per sas lane)? As mentioned in the video mechanical drives max out at roughly 250MB/s or so, so for my needs a 2008 based controller seems fine. What is most affordable to fit my needs and works well with FreeNAS, while allowing me to connect these drives externally? Please let me know if further info is needed, very eager to get this working. Thanks in advance
Yes, there are cards with external ports. My eBay store has a wide selection of HBA IT mode cards in various configurations, including external cards, so please take a look here:
www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver/HBA-IT-mode-controllers/_i.html?_storecat=23844485012
I might even dare say that I have the greatest selection of HBA cards on eBay. You'll need external SAS cables to a "disk shelf" or also known as JBOD chassis. I talk about SAS cable selection in this video here:
ua-cam.com/video/OW419HwU7sg/v-deo.html
SAS controllers can accept SATA drives; it's just the reverse isn't true, SATA controllers cannot accept SAS drives. So, if you have SAS controller/backplane/cables, you can plug a SATA HDD in it no problem and it will work. As part of the SAS specification, there is something called SATL (SAS ATA Translation Layer) which translates ATA commands (SATA) to SCSI commands (SAS).
And you are correct, with mechanical HDDs, any SAS2008 based HBA card will do just fine. I have a benchmark video showing that with 16x HDDs, the faster SAS2308 makes virtually no difference here:
ua-cam.com/video/LMPq1B31cmE/v-deo.html
Hope that helps! :-)
I have 2 HBA LSI cards. when I set my FreeNas I used just one and then and expander. I'm now building a new Freenas box with supermicro case and mother board. and was thinking if I want faster data transfer, and instead of using the Expander and if I should use 3 HBA cards so all my drives could have full bandwidth. mother board is a Supermicro X9DRi-LN4F+ with 2 2670 processors. Should I put the cards in were on CPU handles all the cards, and put my 10 GB card on the other CPU. I looked at the mother board and looks like CPU 1 runs 3 of the PCIE slots and every thing else were as CPU 2 has only the 3 PCIE slots and the memory and nothing else. was thinking of using that CPU for all 3 cards, and the main cpu 1 for networking ect. What are your thoughts.
HDDs or SSDs or?
@@ArtofServer HDD I have 12 4 TB drives. I will be installing TrueNas, backing up the data I have right now on the drives and rebuild the POOL to were I have all 12 drives in one vdev were as I now have 3 vdev's and have 2 drives set up that can fail before I lose all data. were as right now its set up if I was to lose 2 drives in on vdev I lose it all. so want to change that. Than later down the line will get 12 more drives to create a new pool on the system. I have 2 ssd's I use for boot, and 2 more for cash.
what do you recomend for a dell t5600. sas/sata cards 4port 8 ports 16 ports etc
Depends on what you want to do and what type of storage devices you will use?
Lenovo LSI 11407-1 6GB 16 Port PCI-E SAS Expander Card Board 03X3834 will this work?
Quick question as a complete server noob, if I may? My Dell R720 server is a 12-bay server, and I've noticed the backplane has two cables coming from it with SFF 8087 connectors that's connected into the existing RAID card. Can I still use an HBA with 2 SFF 8087 ports, like the LSI 9211-8i and still be able to use all 12 drives? Hope I'm making sense...
Your R720 has a backplane with a SAS expander chipset that allows 8x SAS lanes to connect with all 12 HDD slots and even the 2x 2.5" slots if you have the rear flexbay backplane. Without the SAS expander, you would only be able to connect with 8x HDDs with 8x SAS lanes. Hope that helps 😊
Is the connector on the Dell H330 a SFF-8644? Because I cant seem to find an adapter cable from SFF-8644 to SFF-8087..
No, the H330 has the "internal" version of that connector, which is SFF8643. The SFF8644 is an external connector, which might be why it is hard to find it with SFF8087 (though, not impossible, and not recommended for reasons mentioned in this video).
@@ArtofServer Funny a pdf from Dell says "Two x4 internal mini-SAS HD SFF8644", so I also thought it was strange to list SFF8644 as internal.
Thank you for the quick reply and clearing things up.
@@Runenaldo yeah, i think that is typo.
Very useful. Thanks!
Glad it was useful! :-)
I'm looking at building a low power NAS with a HP H220 LSI 9207-8i P20. Does this card have a configuration option for staggering the drive spin up at boot?
If you're looking for low power NAS, I would recommend getting a card based on SAS2008 chipset instead, especially if you'll be using HDDs only. The SAS2008 runs at a much slower clock speed, so uses less power, and generates less heat. The SAS2308 uses more power, generates more heat.
I believe both have the options in the LSI BIOS program to delay drive spin up at boot.
Very nice and informative video....some notices / questions
-can they support in ir mode 2 different raid set ups lets say 2 ssd's in mirror and 3-5hdds in raid5 I am sure this doent play a role if they are going to be used as pass through hbas.
- the last on down (left side) hba because I couldnt hear clearly in the video is a Dell PercH310? (I have one and I m pretty sure none recommends it quite the opposite - also it doesnt pass through trim commands)
-I noticed you mention that thet come pre flashed with IT V20 firm. I cam across many posts complaining of broken arrays and low iops in general. Most if not all problems solved flashing with IT v19 firm. V20 not so compatible with zfs ???
-What about trim commands? Do all of them pass through the command both in IR and IT mode? Have you tried?
Thank you in advance.
thanks for watching! to answer your questions:
1) IR mode firmware for SAS2008 is very basic RAID, and only supports RAID0/1/1e/10. not RAID5. i don't usually use the IR firmware, so I can't say too much about it.
2) yes, there is a H310 in this video. I don't really recommend using H310 with SSDs in the first place. I also don't really know about TRIM support, as most enterprise SSDs seem to take care of garage collection automatically and i don't usually need to use TRIM. For TRIM to work, I would image you need firmware support at the SAS/ATA Translation Layer.
3) i think most of the mentions about problems with P20 firmware are very old. the recommended current firmware is P20 and has been stable, but it might depend on your OSes driver version. if you're using an older OS with LSI driver that matches P19, then maybe using P19 is better idea. However, with most modern systems, P20 is recommended.
4) like i said, I don't usually have to worry about TRIM with modern enterprise SSDs. i don't know about TRIM support as I have not tried it.
hope that helps..
@@ArtofServer Thank you in advance. You ve been very informative
Hi, Thanks for a great information video. So I have 2 Sata 6G SSDs & 11 NAS hhds in my unraid server. Correct me if i'm wrong but the LSI SAS2308 would be the best card to buy due to the fact I have 2 ssd's in my array? Oh i should mention my NAS hhds are Sata 6G as well.
Hi sorry to bother you again, but how can i change my Dell Perch H330 into HBA mode as you stated in the video? When I hit "Apply" after changing "Personality Mode" from "RAID-Mode" to "HBA-Mode" in the bios it says "The requested operation is not possible at this time."
Hmmm ... I don't know about that error. If I had to guess, maybe there is existing raid configuration on the card. Trying clearing the configuration, and try again.
@@ArtofServer I tried to reset to factory defaults from the bios, but that didnt help. any other way of clearing it?
@@Runenaldo yeah, go into the perc bios and clear configuration.
@@ArtofServer it was from the perch bios I did the reset to factory defaults, sorry should have been more clear.
@@Runenaldo ok. Did you clear any raid configuration?
What a great video! I just wish I had found and watched it before getting a Fujitsu D3216-A12 LSI MegaRAID SAS 1GB Cache 12GB (=9361-8I). Do you know what LSI chipset this is and if it is possible to crossflash these to IT mode? Do you perform flashing services?... Looking to consolidate +10 spinning HDDs and 4 SSDs into a single box and was eager. I will look in your store for a 2308 chipset based i16 card as I can still return the Fujitsu card which I presume is in IR mode...
I believe the 9361-8i is based on LSI SAS3108 chipset. I have not tried to cross-flash those, only the SAS3008 chipset cards. It may or may not be possible, but I don't know for sure.
No, at this time I do not offer firmware flashing services on a case by case basis. It's a lot less time consuming for me to do firmware flashing in large batches.
unfortunately, I don't know of any "internal" SAS2308 cards with 16 ports. there are external versions with 16 ports, and internal versions with only 8 ports.
thanks for watching and welcome to my channel! :-)
Hi, it is okay to combine sas3008 internal(for internal server hardisk) and sas3008 external(for add jbod enclosure) attach to the same server?
Yes
small question: lets say I want to build a 2U server with 20-24 SATA SSD's for ZFS, which card should I pick? (CPU will be Ryzen so PCIe 3.0 is perfectly ok)
I think the best choice will be the cards based on LSI SAS2308 chipset. I would not spend the extra on the 12Gbps cards (SAS3008) as with SATA you won't benefit from that. And I would get the SAS2308 over the SAS2008 for 2 reasons: 1) SAS2308 supports PCIe3.0, and 2) the SAS2308 is faster than SAS2008 which should help with handling the higher IOPS of SSDs vs HDDs. Hope that helps! :-)
This is a fantastic video!
Glad you liked it. Thanks for watching!
What about dell perc 200?
Do you mean the H200?
HI I got an hp dl 180 g6 with a
p 212 raid controller u got anything with it mode to replace for used with unraid it in low profile
Any of the SAS2008 or SAS2308 based HBA cards should work. If you want to keep within the brand, I do have some H220 (9207-8) in my eBay store.
@@ArtofServer I just ordered one of the sas2308
Good info
Glad it was helpful!
thank youu now i understand
Glad this helped!
So even if my SAS expander is connected to 24 SATA III drives, a SAS2008 HBA would suffice?
Depends on how much bandwidth you have between the HBA and the SAS expander. For an example benchmark on a SAS2008 HBA with SAS-2 expander, checkout my other video here: ua-cam.com/video/BvL70tEW3VU/v-deo.html
Thanks for this video! Kinda helpful now that I'm exploring more slots on my unRaid build, and also potentially adding a SAS3 drive onto my Windows PC.
Also, really cool that your HBAs are pre-flashed!
Have you tried getting the H240 to work with the IBM46M0997 expander, by any chance? I'm trying to set up this connection under Linux but no luck so far. Wondering if it's even technically possible.
The HP H240 is a SAS-3 12Gbps card, so it probably isn't the best choice for a SAS-2 expander like the IBM 46M0997. Is the storage device you are using also SAS-3 or is it a SAS-2 device?
@@ArtofServer Actually just SATA drives at the moment via a breakout cable. (I don't really need SAS3, but I happened to win this H240 in an eBay auction.) I figured that the connection would be auto-negotiated between the two, but the expander doesn't seem to receive any usable signal at all - two orange LEDs is all I'm getting. I checked the working of both cards separately, tested different cables, flashed the latest firmware for both, tried changing some settings with HP's SSA, but to no avail. I think I'll sell it and buy myself an H220.
@@naamval Yeah, I suspect it's just a SAS-2 vs SAS-3 issue. SAS-3 introduced independent link speed negotiation, but the SAS-2 expander probably wants to negotiate end-to-end link speed. You've confirmed both cards work fine when paired with the right components, so I think it's just a compatibility issue. Highly doubt IBM and HP would spend the time to update their firmware to fix this issue. That H240 is a great HBA by the way, if you plan to use it for SAS-3 storage devices... I've used it to build all flash SAS-3 storage servers and it's a true HBA, providing the generic SCSI (/dev/sg*) device nodes and everything.
hi i am looking for a sas to sata controller in it mode for 16 drive what do u recommended and point me to it on your ebay store thanks
Hi. Is this for internal or external application? HDD or SSD? What model storage devices?
@@ArtofServer internal 16 hdd going into a 15 bay rosewell case with unraid
@@rezarohoman6201 are any of those HDDs Seagate SAS-3 HDDs?
@@ArtofServer no it's all wd 8 tb red had no sas
@@rezarohoman6201 There are a few options for you. One of them I don't have. If you're short on PCIe slots, you'll probably want a LSI 9201-16i... but unfortunately, I don't sell this card right now; it is hard to find genuine ones on eBay.
another option is to get 2x 9201-8i (or 9210-8i, 9240-8i, H310, H200) .. these cards have 2 SFF-8087 ports each, providing 8x SAS lanes, and with 2 cards gives you 16 SAS lanes. You can find these cards in my store here: www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver/HBA-IT-mode-controllers/_i.html?_storecat=23844485012
a third option is 1x HBA + SAS-2 expander as I show in my other video here: ua-cam.com/video/qccpopxc_Uo/v-deo.html
you can buy that HBA and SAS-2 expander here:
www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-9240-8i-with-LSI-9210-8i-FW-6Gbps-SAS-HBA-P20-IT-Mode-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID/163600383999
and
www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ServeRAID-16-Port-6Gbps-SAS-2-SATA-Expansion-Adapter-46M0997-Firmware-634A/163321588238
Hope that helps! :-)
Hello, thanks for the video, I have an HP H240, is there any way to make this card work in a non server environment (windows 10pro) in HBA mode.
I think so... Do you have a particular combination of hardware that isn't working?
@@ArtofServer I would like to do this as well, any help? I just purchased some parts from you last week and now that they have arrived I am a little stuck. I am trying to get two 4tb HP/Seagate SAS drives that I got a deal on running on an HP EliteDesk 800 G2 SFF. I have the HP H240 Card and need some info on how to set this up. Thanks
@@DFWCASSANOVA In the About tab of my channel page, you can find a way to reach me directly. Be sure to provide some model numbers of the drives you're using and we can discuss from there. :-)
Are any of these cards supported by Mac OSX?
I don't know. The brand that has the broadest support is LSI, so I would think those cards have a good chance of being supported.
On just normal sata hard drives is a 2008 anywhere near insufficient
yes
Do you ever sell via Paypal? I could usd HBA IT flashed H200 for my unraid
(ebay has been causing me some order frustrations over the past month).
Reach out to me directly on the about page of my channel.
@@ArtofServer Thank you
@@ArtofServer Email sent. Thank you. :-)
good video, thanks
thanks
You're welcome!
Nice ...and very well explained . I have a asus sabertooth Mark 2 I7 7740X and purchased a Dell H310 (IT-mode) Adapter 8-Port 6Gb/s SAS SATA Raid Card . My main use for this card is to use it as a normal controller to add more storage . I have ssds and other sata 3 hard drives . And running windows 10 pro and steam. Do i have to do anything else special except install the card and hook my drives up ? I was watching youre videos and others and it seems like this is already setup to use as normal as non raid with being able to use 8 drives if need be so im hoping to be able to plug in and play .... Sound somewhat right?
Yes, as long as the adapter has IT mode firmware, it is pretty much plug and play.
Art of Server Thanks so much.
What would you recommend for external HBAs? I got a powervault MD1000 I'd like to use with the R710 I got, and it has 2x SFF-8470 12gbps connections.
www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/povw/powervault-md1000/techspecs
@GrumpyTanker : hi there! Yeah, I use to have a MD1000 too! Keep in mind, the expander chip on the MD1000 has some performance limitations, so I wouldn't go out and buy the fastest HBA for it, as it would just be wasted on the MD1000. That said, any SAS2008 based external HBA should work as long as you have the right cables. So, basically, look for something like a 9201-16e or equivalent, then get a SFF-8088->SFF-8470 cable. Are you planning to run the md1k in unified or split mode?
@@ArtofServer thanks for the reply! I'm not quite sure yet. As I understand it, Unified would allow me to use a single cable to see all the drives. I don't know if there are any performance advantages to running split and having two cables running back to the same server. Would having both cables in split mode run to the same card improve performance or would two separate cards be required?
Lemme know if you have the recommended card and cables on your ebay store.
@@grumpytanker8258 In general, it's hard to get a lot of performance out of the md1k due to the limitations of the expander chipset in those EMM modules. yes, if you go split, and run 8x SAS lanes, you can get a little more out of the system and you don't need a 2nd HBA, as even a single SAS2008 HBA will have more performance than you will ever get out of md1k. going totally off memory from 10yrs ago, i think i maxed out the md1k at around 600~700MB/sec sequential I/O. if you see the benchmark video here: ua-cam.com/video/BvL70tEW3VU/v-deo.html , you'll see that a single SAS2008 HBA can do near 2GB/sec sequential I/O.
@@grumpytanker8258 oh, yes, i do have an external HBA in my store. see here: www.ebay.com/itm/LSI-9201-16e-6Gbps-16-lane-external-SAS-HBA-P20-IT-Mode-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID-NoROM/162872615455
Also, feel free to look around the HBA section of my store here: www.ebay.com/str/theartofserver/HBA-IT-mode-controllers/_i.html?_storecat=23844485012
@@ArtofServer Is there a big advantage to PCI-E 2.0 vs 3.0 for this card? Since it has 4 ports, if I theoretically hook up a second MD1000 (or something else, or 3 arrays), I guess it could get close to saturating the 4GB/s bandwidth. Probably just as price/performance efficient to add a dedicated card at that point. Just thinking out loud.
I was also looking at jamming an MD1200 controller, which is SFF-8088 and 6GB/s into the MD1000, but it looks like the 1200 controller has an extra set of connectors. Looks like it might physically still fit, but probably wouldn't work right.
www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-POWERVAULT-MD1000-SAS-SATA-CONTROLLER-EMM-JT517-AMP01-SIM/202127145905?epid=907324914&hash=item2f0fb77bb1:g:GncAAOSwlMFZJFxK:rk:1:pf:0
www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-POWERVAULT-MD1200-MD1220-EMM-6GB-S-SAS-CONTROLLER-MODULE-W307K/332862810033?hash=item4d802b67b1:g:jboAAOSwBVdb20N8:rk:2:pf:0
Thanks for the help buddy, gonna order the LSI-9201 you suggested.
Most SATA SSDs only get to 500-550MB/s, which would be about 4-4.4GB/s
Sata 3 limit is 6 gigabits per second, not gigabytes!!!
exactly
Hey, Don't suppose you have checked if any of your cards work with storage spaces on server 2016???👏
I'm not a Windows person so I haven't done so myself, but I know several of my past customers have successfully used my IT mode HBAs for storage spaces.
@@ArtofServer - I have used storage spaces and was disappointed with the performance of the RAID equivalent that it offers, but it runs quite fast when you have the disks configured as mirrors. I still have a preference of using ZFS.
There is a project that is trying to bring ZFS to Windos, and that would be nice: github.com/openzfsonwindows/ZFSin