Another counterfeit LSI HBA | 9211-8i with no LSI logo

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  • Опубліковано 21 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 73

  • @thelastdaniel
    @thelastdaniel Рік тому +20

    I wouldn't call it "counterfeit". It's an OEM revision sold by SilverStone under the name "SST-ECS02" (branded box, unbranded PCB). It's simply that, no conspiracy. SilverStone is somewhat reputable, even if they sometimes rebrand OEM stuff. Comes with the exact same firmware as the original LSI variants. There's another company called INSPUR that incorporates other revisions of these cards in their servers, they look a lot more different, and they have branded PCBs.

    • @TechTails
      @TechTails 9 місяців тому +3

      Is there even counterfeit cards? Seems like a conspiracy theory honestly

    • @Megatog615
      @Megatog615 9 місяців тому +5

      yeah but then he couldn't sell 'genuine' hardware at 4x the cost

    • @z33d6
      @z33d6 4 місяці тому +2

      @@TechTails it's not a conspiracy theory, it's a marketing strategy for the shop that he runs.

  • @123cyr
    @123cyr 2 роки тому +12

    Very minor point, but the different looking metal traces/pins is almost certainly not because the actual base metal is different but the plating/coating that is applied on top. There are a number of different finishes used for PCBs (gold/silver/tin platings etc), but they all use copper traces. Some of the difference in appearance can also be because of different types and thicknesses of the solder mask (the green coating on top).

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      Thanks for sharing this information. :-)

    • @yghjjhgj
      @yghjjhgj 2 роки тому

      ​@@ArtofServer hi bro , please help me < I have purchased this device dell t7910 and it has 2X processor 2699 v4
      128 gb ram
      However
      Boot time is very slow, and it takes 3 minutes to boot to the desktop
      Most of the time the device beeps and freezes
      And when I work on 3D programs it is very slow and freezes
      Is there a solution according to your experience?
      Because the device has strong capabilities
      But in practice, the device is very slow and bad
      Even though I did a test for the processor and the ram
      They all give a green pass

    • @zynix27
      @zynix27 Рік тому

      @@yghjjhgj what are those weird numbered videos you have on your channel?

  • @Mr.Leeroy
    @Mr.Leeroy Рік тому +10

    This is probably a good design of CN OEM SAS2008 card.
    From EE point of view, I see no disadvantages in their design at a glance. As long as it uses original chipset, power section is implemented correctly and PCIe lanes signal integrity is sound it will work the same. And these things are very doable for a competent engineer even some hobbyists.
    Some components are different in power section, which is perfectly normal as there are tons of ICs that will give you same specs voltage rails. The only noticeable difference is that definitely clone uses tantalum capacitors (yellow SMD "bricks"), while LSI one uses black, which could be polymer ones as well as same tantalum just different color. And in this case latter actually makes more sense anyway, so probably just a cosmetic difference.

  • @CMDRSweeper
    @CMDRSweeper 2 роки тому +11

    When you were weighing all of these cards, it should have been fun to see if there were differences between the other genuine LSI cards that had different components, sort of a sample of several rather than a sample size of one.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому +3

      That's an interesting experiment. Perhaps for a future video. Thanks!

  • @Dreamtwister2k
    @Dreamtwister2k 2 роки тому +3

    Thank you for this awesome video. My original Amazon purchases that I suspected to be counterfeits were what prompted me to find a reputable seller. Someone on reddit pointer me in your direction and I couldn't be more pleased.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому +1

      Thanks for supporting my store! :-)

  • @VjSky
    @VjSky 7 місяців тому +4

    Why did you assume it’s counterfeit card? LSI makes chips and provides a reference design that other oems use. It can just be a no-name reference design based card

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  7 місяців тому

      Not an assumption, just suspicion. And as to why I have suspicions, that's covered in the video. This card also did not follow the reference design in the power management section of the board, so it's not really a reference design card. Yet, it has a LSI serial number label. All the other OEM boards based on reference design, they actually followed the reference design, have LSI logo and various certified markings/labels. Also, this card's PCIe ID didn't make any sense, since a 9200-8e card is a totally different card. No OEM would do such a weird thing, in fact, they would have PCIe subsystem ID that would identify the OEM, not fake a totally different card's PCIe ID just to get the firmware to boot. All of this is covered and shown in the video. Did you even watch it?

  • @DanielTekmyster
    @DanielTekmyster 2 місяці тому +1

    Woah, I have a bunch of 9211-8E…do I need to see if this is why some may be slow?…

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 місяці тому +1

      9211-8e? or do you mean 9200-8e? and no, I don't think counterfeit cards run any slower. they just have smaller heatsinks, and seem to sometimes use subpar materials. i think the end result is that they might be less reliable in the long run, and perhaps require more airflow to cool at the same level.

    • @DanielTekmyster
      @DanielTekmyster 2 місяці тому

      @@ArtofServer 9200-8e and other variations.

  • @draskuul
    @draskuul 2 роки тому +2

    Yeah, I got one of these off an Amazon order. The Amazon pictures showed the expected LSI logo, but not what I received. I didn't even try to use it, I just returned it.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      I didn't know they were being sold on Amazon! I assume by 3rd party marketplace seller?

    • @draskuul
      @draskuul 2 роки тому

      @@ArtofServer Oh yeah, definitely a third party seller.

  • @miscbits6399
    @miscbits6399 5 місяців тому +2

    The thing to bear in mind is that 92xx and 93xx are both regarded as "long obsolete" legacy cards by Broadcom and they've farmed them out to 3rd parties. Any new cards you may run across are OEM or _very_ old stock (at least a decade, maybe older)
    As a nice "bonus", these cards don't support ASPM and will keep your machine in higher power modes(*). That's OK in a server room, not so great for a SOHO server
    It's not just the power difference of the cards (1.5W/port in 92/93xx vs 0.5W/port in later models), but on my X10Dri motherboard I'm seeing the system base power load (no drives) almost double (50W to 100W) with 9200 or 9300s plugged in vs a 9400
    9300 and earlier fusion MPT use a PowerPc core, 9305 and 9400 onwards use Arm core, which explains the power difference. Additionally the 9305 onwards support 24 ports natively so you don't have the kludge of the 9300-16's 2 controllers and a PCIe bridge bringing the things up to 25W/card
    (*) You _can_ enable L1 on 9300 series cards by forcing the OS and using setpci but you'll throw random intermittent SMART errors on a near continuous basis, so it's best not to do it
    Ok, that power difference is dwarfed by the 250W my (aging) 22 4TB HDDs are drawing, but as time goes by and they're replaced with fewer (larger) drives, it starts bcoming more noticable

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  4 місяці тому +1

      There was a very significant platform change after the SAS3008 and earlier, which were PowerPC based chips. Up until SAS3008, power consumption kept escalating. The SAS3400 and newer are now ARM based. So that's where the power efficiency comes from.

  • @billycroan2336
    @billycroan2336 Рік тому +3

    do the counterfit cards work more slowly or produce errors?

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому +3

      Since the chip is the same, that part I think is no different. Where they cut corners are things like the heatsink (smaller usually), or perhaps materials used for the PCB and other SMD components. My speculation is that over the long run, they might not be as reliable, or may require more airflow to keep cool with the smaller heatsink. But, I've never used one of these long term so that's speculation.

  • @silentjohn80
    @silentjohn80 Рік тому +5

    I see a lot of LSI(?) products for sale on Ebay produced by a chinese firm called Inspur - do you know anything about them? Thank you for all your great content!

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому +3

      I don't know a lot about them, but they are a Chinese server manufacturer. I think they also build for some of the OEM brands. I have not used any of the Inspur branded LSI SAS controllers.

  • @boerboel7777
    @boerboel7777 6 місяців тому +2

    Thanks, interesting video. If we take a step back and look at the big picture, is there really a lot of profit in making fake cards? With counterfeit cards you'd expect a lot more obvious flaws, and the most crucial bit (actual real world performance) will prove if they're fake. To my (untrained) eye these two samples look virtually identical apart from the subtle differences you pointed out. So I'm inclined to agree that these are unbranded OEM samples. The amount of engineering that goes into making a fake card must be substantial, so it makes no sense unless its total garbage that doesn't work...

  • @McCuneWindandSolar
    @McCuneWindandSolar 2 роки тому +2

    I wonder if the weight could be in the Bracket.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      No, I checked and the bracket weight is identical, and the weight difference of just the card bare is the same 9 grams.

    • @Mr.Leeroy
      @Mr.Leeroy Рік тому

      @@ArtofServer MiniSAS connectors are different, VRM inductors are shielded ones (more dense), additional components and difference in weight in common ones, probably a gramm or so for tin plating of PCB, but the bulk should still be heatsink difference, since you say that it is not bracket.

  • @Nourrights_psalm118.8
    @Nourrights_psalm118.8 5 місяців тому

    As long as the card has a properly stitched ground with adequate amount of (max spacing in between the vias based on rise/fall time of return path) vias and correct spacing in between pcb layers

  • @ScrubbedAgonizing
    @ScrubbedAgonizing Рік тому +2

    If I were to inadvertently buy a counterfeit card, will it still work? What problems might I face?

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому +1

      I have not used a counterfeit card in any long term capacity. but from the observations described in this video and others related to this topic, I would expect that they are less reliable with the smaller heatsinks, and potentially if they are using lower quality components. but that's just my speculative opinion since I have not used a counterfeit card in any of my servers. anecdotally, some of my customers have reported to me that their counterfeit card failed pre-maturely. although, some people have reported they are working just fine.

    • @ScrubbedAgonizing
      @ScrubbedAgonizing Рік тому

      @@ArtofServer Thanks. I live in Asia and all the cards I've found for sale here are shipped from China. I have an LSI 9217-4i4e on the way and my thoughts are there's a high chance it could be a counterfeit card. I plan on attaching a 40mm fan to the heatsink, so hopefully that will prolong its life if it is indeed a counterfeit with smaller heatsink.

  • @p0larz0mbies
    @p0larz0mbies 2 роки тому +3

    wow, I didn't know you had a youtube channel. I bought an hba card from you for my unraid server a year or two ago.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому +1

      Thanks for supporting my store in the past! Hope you enjoy the channel! :-)

  • @roman9509
    @roman9509 Рік тому +1

    Learned something new today

  • @shootinputin6332
    @shootinputin6332 Рік тому +1

    Hmm. My card I bought (9211-8i) has the LSI trademark with a 2009 date, above the assembled in Thailand, but the card is a different shape with the ports being on the side towards the PCI backplate, and it doesn't have the LSI logo. Works, though. What card did I get? If you could make shipping a little cheaper to Australia, I'd be able to buy from you. Right now, the Chinese have the monopoly, unless you wanna spend big.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому +1

      Not sure what card you got. Sounds like an external SAS card?
      Unfortunately, not much I can do about shipping costs to Australia. Everything in this damn place is expensive and the politicians just keep spending like they FOMO. Shipping prices are going to rise again in November. :-(

    • @shootinputin6332
      @shootinputin6332 Рік тому +1

      @@ArtofServer na, it is an internal card, just the ports are not on the end of the card like the 9211-8i. I figured out what it is - 9210-8i, which seems to only differ from the 9211-8i by where the ports are located. I actually had a 9201-16e laying around that is legit and has all the correct markings, I just slot that in and routed the cables from inside the case to outside.

  • @matrixmodulator
    @matrixmodulator 2 роки тому +1

    8:30 The green color layer is called the soldermask usualy. Silver would be hasl, gold copper color would be enig which is usualy better.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      Thank you for sharing that information! :-)

    • @Mr.Leeroy
      @Mr.Leeroy Рік тому +1

      This is not ENIG, it is just a bare oxidized copper not covered with solder mask.
      Clone is better in this regard, of course its PCB was made out of copper and then tinned before applying solder mask.
      It is an additional step that LSI saved costs on, which made sense in '80s maybe, not sure if it does now, may be at very large quantities, not even LSI quantities..

  • @rehull1973
    @rehull1973 7 місяців тому +2

    These aren't counterfeit. They are oem revisions. Sometimes unbranded and use the same chipsets.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  7 місяців тому +2

      I disagree. I've seen OEM boards from Dell, Fujitsu, Inspur, Supermicro, and other brands and they typically do their own design and look completely unique. In this case, the card is clearly a low cost copy of the LSI reference design. They seem to be using a cheaper conductor material, and the power supply circuitry is using cheaper components instead of ICs. On top of that, the serial number format is a LSI serial number, which are never on OEM boards. So, in a way, it is pretending to be a LSI reference card with LSI serial number, but is doing a poor job at it. Also, OEM cards will typically have their own branding on the card, this has none. If you think this is an OEM, which OEM brand is it?

  • @prashanthb6521
    @prashanthb6521 2 роки тому +1

    The four holes are different too. The original has copper rim.

  • @interactivesage4609
    @interactivesage4609 2 роки тому +1

    @Art of Server, Hey! I have a question. I'm a newbie trying to get into servers. Right now i'm building a server for my purposes of a file storage solution.
    I have a few questions because I can't seem to get any details from others on the internet.
    * What's the difference between an HBA and vs RAID controller?
    I know with the RAID controller you can set up RAID functionality such as raid 0,1,10,5, etc.
    However, for an HBA I'm confused, at first glance I always thought of an HBA acting like a JBOD configuration or a way to connect multiple drives to your system without having RAID and you would have to set up RAID through the operating system via software no hardware. Is this true?
    * Is it possible to set up two raid cards to act as one with all of the disks through the interface or it varies from card to card?
    * Question on a DAS array, I know that you would have to connect the mini-SAS to the RAID or HBA card externally however I am curious, can you daisy chain DAS --> DAS --> SERVER? I'm curious.
    Thank you, and also if you have any more videos about servers for newbies if you can list those videos I'd be more than happy to watch them. I love your content and so far you have been one of the few content creators that I not only feel comfortable asking for assistance but learning from too.

    • @CMDRSweeper
      @CMDRSweeper 2 роки тому

      A RAID card allows you to bundle a bunch of disks together in a redundant or non redundant way and present it as a single harddrive to the operating system, if that is Windows, Linux or whatever.
      The operating system has no say in how the harddrives are handled, and if you are planning on using ZFS, you are giving up a bit of control and if it is a hardware RAID controller with cache and the fun stuff, you may lose your pool.
      An HBA is just like the motherboard's own SATA controller, it is dumb and whatever you plug into it shows up as a single drive, if you want to use RAID functionality or with ZFS, you do it in software from that point and the card does no management at all of the drive other than communication, for ZFS this is the least hassle and the most popular method.
      But as Art of Server has showed us, you can get away with using a hardware RAID controller, but you have to disable the caching for it to work and avoid killing a ZFS pool.
      My final take on it is, if you are dealing with Windows, you should ignore HBAs go straight for hardware RAID and stick with that.
      If you intend on using a Linux NAS or anything running ZFS, save the money and get the cheaper LSI HBA and call it done, simple and easy.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому +2

      For RAID vs HBA: ua-cam.com/video/xEbQohy6v8U/v-deo.html
      If you're new to servers, then these are some videos that might help: ua-cam.com/video/9VS5j4-QHnA/v-deo.html
      To learn more about SAS expanders and JBOD enclosures:
      ua-cam.com/play/PL28eVGz5vFQ-pn6eFBC6AmfbL3yPcBDV7.html
      ua-cam.com/video/wudbsI_XB24/v-deo.html
      Hope that helps! :-) Thanks for watching!

    • @RoxasandNaruto
      @RoxasandNaruto Рік тому

      @@ArtofServer I am going to make an Unraid server soon what would you recommend and if so places send me some links thanks

  • @illstateofmind
    @illstateofmind 2 роки тому +1

    Do the counterfeit cards run hotter?

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      good question, but hard to tell. the SAS2008 chip does not have a temperature sensor. :-(

  • @FeaRFoRDeaD
    @FeaRFoRDeaD Рік тому +3

    Nice I don't know it's counterfeit or not.
    But I saw difference
    Orginal has Electroless Nickel Immersion Gold (ENIG) or OSP (Organic Solderability Preservative)
    Counterfeit card has HASL or Immersion Tin (ISn)
    2nd orginal has some smd components in back side of the card.
    But counterfeit has those components on the top side (as u refered to complex) left side of the nv ram.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому

      Thanks for pointing that out!

    • @AndehX
      @AndehX Рік тому

      False. HASL finish would be silver in colour, not gold (like we see in the video on the connector pins)

    • @FeaRFoRDeaD
      @FeaRFoRDeaD Рік тому +1

      @@AndehX if u have watched the whole video, the creator is referring to SMD pads not PCB EDGE connector(PCIE x16). PCB EDGE connectors are gold-plated in both cards.

  • @SurvivalMeAndYou
    @SurvivalMeAndYou Рік тому +1

    but does it work if it work then i really don't care if its counterfeit

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому +1

      it's your choice whether you care or not. i do, and I know many others who don't want to use counterfeit cards with cut corners. enjoy your freedom while you have it.

  • @EmilePolka
    @EmilePolka Рік тому +4

    you cant really say the thing is counterfeit if they actually using the same silicon on the main chipset as the reproduction ones.
    so the thing is, these cheap lsi cards works the same as the cards with printed LSI branding on it.
    I can only say if this card is counterfeit if the card has major hardware difference, just like in game controllers for ps3, the original ones uses toshiba chipsets while the counterfeit uses who knows what inside the blobtop.
    if were going to use your logic, no LSI logo on PCB = counterfeit. You might as well go call all those HP rebranded LSI cards as counterfeit as well all of that because it lacks LSI logo.

  • @leo_craft1
    @leo_craft1 Рік тому

    Me not caring about the brand, just matter if it works and my 9201 does not i'm frustrated

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  Рік тому

      Sorry to hear your card isn't working. Check out my "HBA troubleshooting videos" playlist. Maybe that will help?

    • @leo_craft1
      @leo_craft1 Рік тому

      @@ArtofServer Consuming 0.2W is not a good sign tho?

  • @3k3k3
    @3k3k3 2 роки тому +2

    I wish you had a EU shop, yeah i know a one man band.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      I sell to the EU all the time from the USA. Thanks for watching!

    • @3k3k3
      @3k3k3 2 роки тому +1

      @@ArtofServer no, thank you for providing so much insight. The reason i mentioned a EU store is the import charges, it gets expensive fast. Especially with the more expensive stuff.

  • @metrotechguru5863
    @metrotechguru5863 2 роки тому +1

    Very cool video. You should work for the FBI with your analytical skills.

    • @ArtofServer
      @ArtofServer  2 роки тому

      Thanks. But I don't think so...

    • @metrotechguru5863
      @metrotechguru5863 2 роки тому

      @@ArtofServer Don't sell yourself short. You really are talented compared to the "average Joe".

  • @billycroan2336
    @billycroan2336 Рік тому

    they are using melted down ikea pots