lol... that would be fireworks... these guys enjoy'd (maybe a little too muchMUCHLYfor my liking) a mutual respect for the podcaster/influencer game... Schopenhauer & Nietzsche would inevitably try to tear each other's f*cking throats out... god!!... i love this channel too much for polite society... good taste and such.
The other day I was wondering if I'd ever live to see this collab. I got introduced to the depth of Nietzschean Philosophy through your channels. Thank you for this!
Schopenhauer held artists in higher esteem than any other philosopher. And he held composers of classical music highest of all. Why? Because art -- through what it does NOT say explicitly but only hints at or alludes to -- can show one what the nature of "will" actually is; will here being the ultimate reality or "thing-in-itself." Artists are "seers" and "sages," and they produce for mankind that which stills or quenches desire and allows one to bask in contemplative repose. I also think Nietzsche was quite correct when he said "We have art in order not to die of life."
Man, great back and forth with you two. I think a monthly talk between you guys would be really valuable, alternate on each other's channel or whatever, it'd be great. Thank you.
I just came upon this channel recently, but have been a reader of Nietzsche for quite a while. I've been watching Weltgeist for a couple years or so. Two of my favorite philosophical channels - as much for the wealth of thorough insights on figures like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche themselves as for the rich array of additional thinkers you both bring into the fold during the analyses. You're both doing a great service for those already into Nietzsche, and indeed philosophy overall. I can only imagine the work you put into your respective channels. As a question - in light of the Nietzschean and Schopenhauerian views discussed, how would either of you characterize the aesthetic of, say, a picturesque and exerting nature trail walk? It would perhaps seem to afford a perspective somewhere between the poles of spectator and creator, due to the pre-existing beauties of nature, but also to the sustained physical and psychological effort put forth in getting there.
This was an awesome conversation. Loved it! The only part I question is the topic about space. It amazes me really smart people don’t question if the government CGI images of space and planetoids are real.
What if the difference between Schopenhauer's concept of art is about consuming it, and Nietzsche's is about producing it? Perhaps it can be reconciled that way. They may be two categorically different phenomenological processes. Weltgeist touches on this some at the very ending
Thank you for this engaging podcast. I'm also interested in the topic of art and its connection to life as a whole. From the angle of the artist, Nietzsche's description of art as an expression of passions, ecstasies, and valuations which are fundamentally irrational is correct. From the angle of the spectator, art can be experienced in a number of different ways, depending on the particular artwork and one's overall temperament. Art can be appreciated purely for the beauty and perfection of its form, engaging the senses and the intellect while seeming to calm the passions, as preferred by Kant and Schopenhauer. However, a spectator can also allow himself to be more personally affected by the work, partaking in the states of mind which inspired the artist by finding the corresponding passions within himself. Nietzsche was critical of "immaculate perception", of treating impersonality as an intellectual and aesthetic virtue, but also disproved of Wagnerian art for its uncertain form and unrestrained excitement of the passions. His opinions on the topic suggest that a great work of art should be deeply personal, but expressed with great discipline and refinement of form.
Art is at its core an excersize in problem solving. Necessity ( or perceived nesrccisity ) gives birth to innovation and the creative process. The cave analogy is always great, imagine you have small children 30000 years ago and they can't leave the cave. And you desire to share and show them what is out there. So you focus your memory, enough to scratch a representation of the animals you see when you forage. The instinctual irrational passion to look out for your tribe gives birth to a creative process of emparting wisdom. Art was the begining of philosophy. The love of the wisdom emparted , by stories, rituals, pictures, music, dance. We embody the world around us in order to understand it. Empathy. Art may be an excersize in empathy. Embodiment and mimickery as a conduit for deeper understanding. Thanks so much guys. My life is made better through both of your work.
There are two sides to the music, both Schopenhauers and Nietzsches are like poles of the same thing. But I have found maybe third part, when I sometimes listen to music and I have bursting energy in me or willpower if you want, I feel like the whole me is in sense recreating the song, when I listen to something and I know the meaning and emotions that artist left there, but still while listening I’m putting there my own emotions, ideas…, in that way I feel more like I’m finding myself there by giving it my own part. In this way I sense it like overcoming the Autor who wants to force in some way. Two wills colliding and one is submitting to the other. But the Autors to mine or they are together creating something beyond, I’m not sure which one of these it is. Maybe both. But you get the idea.
What a beautiful aesthetic conversation ✨️ Did I lose myself in the conversation 🤔 or was I enthused & inspired ??? 🤔 By the way, the part about the ascetic ideals in science is profound & somewhat disturbing. Vastly more needs to be published about this - I have fallen into that Abyss prior to exposure to Nietzsche and see it all to often manifest. (Great example with the pale blue dot) Huge parallels to "how small are in Theistic humility" transmuted into secular domain.
I understand the confusion when it comes to Wagner. I think sometimes Nietchze can be understood as a man bewitched and then betrayed. He seems to feel that in relationship to Christianity, Schopenhauer, and Wagner. Again, that line " one must have almost himself succumbed to" (loose quote) to understand.
An interesting aspect of the "philosophy as a luxury" view is that it is totally compatible with the view that philosophy might strengthen a healthy culture and destroy an already dying one: imagine indulging in luxuries like expensive parafernalia when you don't really have that money to spend and your life is already going from bad to worse. You'll get there quicker 🤣
This is great. I believe tragedy is also educational to the Greeks. It wasn't mere entertainment or hedonic. It's a way of staying familiar with potential threat. I believe all mythological stories including religion really started this way. As an attempt to fortify and progress through life. Prodginey and legacy were also extremely important. Essentially I'm describing exposure therapy. 😊
Again so thoughtful. I am dazzled by the elegance of the thought. Sheer poetry. But please check your application. It is intriguing to follow your thought about the psychology of scientists, but let those thoughts be hypothesis. As an anthropologist that is also a physician scientist I study scientists. I find very little of use in the direct you give. The problems of discourse are much more traced to the influence of industry. My training was very much influenced by Foucault, another descendant of the thinking you study here. I’ve discarded that as of little use. Worse, as Chomsky documents, it reenforced the elitism of much of academia, that disregards from trying to solve real problems in society. Those problems fundamentally require engagement with all sorts of different people. Again, thanks. A great program but reenforces my conclusions about Neitzche.
Behind Nietzsche and Schopenhauer in the debate of art, is the same debate between Stendhal and Kant on art. Stendhal who said that « la beauté est la promesse du bonheur ». I have tu agree with him on that one rather than Kant. Only a true German can say that beauty is a disinterested contemplation.
@@untimelyreflectionsHave you read Stendhal ! They are very fun books ! I think it is interesting for you to make an analysis between Stendhal and Nietzsche !
Without researching, I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is no “Last Judgement” painting by Da Vinci, let alone in the Sistine Chapel. I’m guessing Mr. Weltgeist misspoke and meant to say Michelangelo.
When thinking about Nietzsche's claims about the production of art, I wonder whether his sample is too parochial, limited to a certain geography and historical tradition, i.e. the Hellenic. The passage where Nietzsche stresses the "indispensable ecstasy" which is the "outcome of all great desires" is a case in point. As a universal generalization about the production or performance of art, this seems false. I doubt, for example, whether this applies to all of the varieties of modern art, e.g. Jasper Johns, Jackson Pollack, or Andy Warhol; or to art of other cultures, e.g. Daoist painting. But even if we limit the claim to music, the claim seems doubtful. Not all modern western music seems to be the product of ecstasy and passion, e.g. the 12 tone music of the early 20th century, John Cage, and the minimalism of Reich, Glass, Part and others. If we expand our attention beyond the West, there is e.g. Indian classical musical music. When I hear the sarod, the Japanese koto or the Javanese gamelan, I never think of the performers as wanting "to impress their passions" on me. Nietzsche's aesthetic is clearly prescriptive: he has an agenda of promoting a new type of music, art, and philosophy, even if he has regrets about his early Wagnerian project. Schopenhauer's aesthetic seems to have wider scope. Not only does it accommodate western art, I suspect that it would also accommodate the more contemplative spirit of eastern art and music. He not only enjoyed playing the flute and listening to Rossini, he also enjoyed contemplating his Bronze Buddha.
And here we are where it seems like its first violent birth spasms might really be kicking in. I hope the world is not about to be cast into even deeper darkness and confusion, but this is a hope against all hope. God help us and hold us.
What did you just do? I don’t know, but it had this effect. Can we infer that it therefore happened for this reason? Let me try; nope. It doesn’t feel right: a different reason perhaps…
Thank you for having me! Enjoyed the conversation
Thanks for joining me! Weltgeist is always wilkommen in salts land.
You guys should do more stuff together in the future , I love you both.
Instantly subscribed to your channel. Excellent conversation
Thank you, love your channel🤟🏻
Thanks for the insights into Nietzche. After reading Russell on the man, I was repulsed. Clearly the man struggled.
The only collaboration I would be more excited about is if Nietzsche and Schopenhauer did a podcast together.
“And that’s why Hegel is a buffoon.”
“That’s fuckin crazy man. You ever try amor fati?”
lolo... there thou sayest TRUUUUUUUUE!!
lol... that would be fireworks... these guys enjoy'd (maybe a little too muchMUCHLYfor my liking) a mutual respect for the podcaster/influencer game... Schopenhauer & Nietzsche would inevitably try to tear each other's f*cking throats out... god!!... i love this channel too much for polite society... good taste and such.
Life is overflowing from this collaboration.
*Vitalism intensifies*
Now THIS is a collaboration🎉 to be exited about!
So true!
Indeed!
"Excited" dude. No exit. 😉
The other day I was wondering if I'd ever live to see this collab. I got introduced to the depth of Nietzschean Philosophy through your channels. Thank you for this!
Two of the best philosophy channels collaborating 🤘
Thank you. 🤘
Yesss wonderful collaboration, hoping for more of these
Wonderful to hear WeltGeist in dialogue. Thanks for this!
I thoroughly enjoyed these discussions from two of my favorite philosophy UA-camrs. Well done!
Schopenhauer held artists in higher esteem than any other philosopher. And he held composers of classical music highest of all. Why? Because art -- through what it does NOT say explicitly but only hints at or alludes to -- can show one what the nature of "will" actually is; will here being the ultimate reality or "thing-in-itself." Artists are "seers" and "sages," and they produce for mankind that which stills or quenches desire and allows one to bask in contemplative repose. I also think Nietzsche was quite correct when he said "We have art in order not to die of life."
Wow 😂 I'm so happy that you two guys decided to meet up together ! Gonna watch the whole thing now 😊. Love you beautiful people.
🙏
Omg , two greatest Nietzsche analysts on youtube together ❤️
Honored!
We need more of this. Both of you guys have provided me with amazing insights about life and philosophy.
Honored to have been of service! 🙏
What a great collaboration, thank you both!
Stoked on this collab!!
Weltgeist is so knowledgeable.
2 of my favorite philosophy channels merging. :) glad you guys teamed up on this
One of the best coversations I've ever heard. For a long time I've hoped you would talk to Weltgeist, and it was indeed fruitful.
Amazing collab, two of the best
Man, great back and forth with you two. I think a monthly talk between you guys would be really valuable, alternate on each other's channel or whatever, it'd be great. Thank you.
I just came upon this channel recently, but have been a reader of Nietzsche for quite a while. I've been watching Weltgeist for a couple years or so. Two of my favorite philosophical channels - as much for the wealth of thorough insights on figures like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche themselves as for the rich array of additional thinkers you both bring into the fold during the analyses. You're both doing a great service for those already into Nietzsche, and indeed philosophy overall. I can only imagine the work you put into your respective channels. As a question - in light of the Nietzschean and Schopenhauerian views discussed, how would either of you characterize the aesthetic of, say, a picturesque and exerting nature trail walk? It would perhaps seem to afford a perspective somewhere between the poles of spectator and creator, due to the pre-existing beauties of nature, but also to the sustained physical and psychological effort put forth in getting there.
so happy to see this development!!!
Such a pleasure to listen to you both on this quiet Sunday!
Thank you 🙏
Sick collaboration right here. Good job essentialsalts
So excited for this one!!!!!!!!!!!!
This was a blast honestly 🔥
That was a very interesting and thought provoking conversation, especially with the topic being art! Thank you for posting :3
This was an awesome conversation. Loved it!
The only part I question is the topic about space. It amazes me really smart people don’t question if the government CGI images of space and planetoids are real.
What if the difference between Schopenhauer's concept of art is about consuming it, and Nietzsche's is about producing it? Perhaps it can be reconciled that way. They may be two categorically different phenomenological processes. Weltgeist touches on this some at the very ending
Nice!! my 2 favourite Nietzsche channels
Thank you for this engaging podcast. I'm also interested in the topic of art and its connection to life as a whole.
From the angle of the artist, Nietzsche's description of art as an expression of passions, ecstasies, and valuations which are fundamentally irrational is correct. From the angle of the spectator, art can be experienced in a number of different ways, depending on the particular artwork and one's overall temperament. Art can be appreciated purely for the beauty and perfection of its form, engaging the senses and the intellect while seeming to calm the passions, as preferred by Kant and Schopenhauer. However, a spectator can also allow himself to be more personally affected by the work, partaking in the states of mind which inspired the artist by finding the corresponding passions within himself. Nietzsche was critical of "immaculate perception", of treating impersonality as an intellectual and aesthetic virtue, but also disproved of Wagnerian art for its uncertain form and unrestrained excitement of the passions. His opinions on the topic suggest that a great work of art should be deeply personal, but expressed with great discipline and refinement of form.
Beautiful collab
what an excellent discussion.
schätzen- that which we treasure, is what we value, is our creativity, it is our meaning and our pursuit, our pastime...
I love this. Exactly what I hoped for for a long time.
One day a year, slave was king. Is that a possible explanation for the ancient celebration?
I would be interested to know your thoughts on the Nietzsche vs Plato debate with Uberboyo and Aarvoll
Really excellent. Thanks, chaps. ❤
YES! TWO LEGENDS MEET AT LAST! 🥳
Art is at its core an excersize in problem solving. Necessity ( or perceived nesrccisity ) gives birth to innovation and the creative process. The cave analogy is always great, imagine you have small children 30000 years ago and they can't leave the cave. And you desire to share and show them what is out there. So you focus your memory, enough to scratch a representation of the animals you see when you forage. The instinctual irrational passion to look out for your tribe gives birth to a creative process of emparting wisdom. Art was the begining of philosophy. The love of the wisdom emparted , by stories, rituals, pictures, music, dance. We embody the world around us in order to understand it. Empathy. Art may be an excersize in empathy. Embodiment and mimickery as a conduit for deeper understanding. Thanks so much guys. My life is made better through both of your work.
There are two sides to the music, both Schopenhauers and Nietzsches are like poles of the same thing. But I have found maybe third part, when I sometimes listen to music and I have bursting energy in me or willpower if you want, I feel like the whole me is in sense recreating the song, when I listen to something and I know the meaning and emotions that artist left there, but still while listening I’m putting there my own emotions, ideas…, in that way I feel more like I’m finding myself there by giving it my own part. In this way I sense it like overcoming the Autor who wants to force in some way. Two wills colliding and one is submitting to the other. But the Autors to mine or they are together creating something beyond, I’m not sure which one of these it is. Maybe both. But you get the idea.
What a beautiful aesthetic conversation ✨️
Did I lose myself in the conversation 🤔 or was I enthused & inspired ??? 🤔
By the way, the part about the ascetic ideals in science is profound & somewhat disturbing. Vastly more needs to be published about this - I have fallen into that Abyss prior to exposure to Nietzsche and see it all to often manifest.
(Great example with the pale blue dot)
Huge parallels to "how small are in Theistic humility" transmuted into secular domain.
I understand the confusion when it comes to Wagner. I think sometimes Nietchze can be understood as a man bewitched and then betrayed. He seems to feel that in relationship to Christianity, Schopenhauer, and Wagner. Again, that line " one must have almost himself succumbed to" (loose quote) to understand.
Great collaboration. Although arguing is for the weak. Discussion is for the dubious
Why not bring The Abolition of Man by C.S. Lewis into the discussion?
An interesting aspect of the "philosophy as a luxury" view is that it is totally compatible with the view that philosophy might strengthen a healthy culture and destroy an already dying one: imagine indulging in luxuries like expensive parafernalia when you don't really have that money to spend and your life is already going from bad to worse. You'll get there quicker 🤣
Omigosh please can you do a monthly collab ?!
This is great. I believe tragedy is also educational to the Greeks. It wasn't mere entertainment or hedonic. It's a way of staying familiar with potential threat. I believe all mythological stories including religion really started this way. As an attempt to fortify and progress through life. Prodginey and legacy were also extremely important. Essentially I'm describing exposure therapy. 😊
Why is this not a weekly thing?
Oh wow, I had no idea I needed this, but I did
Listening again… 💫
Really cool video.
I’m as excited as a little boy on Christmas! 🤩
Again so thoughtful. I am dazzled by the elegance of the thought. Sheer poetry. But please check your application. It is intriguing to follow your thought about the psychology of scientists, but let those thoughts be hypothesis. As an anthropologist that is also a physician scientist I study scientists. I find very little of use in the direct you give. The problems of discourse are much more traced to the influence of industry. My training was very much influenced by Foucault, another descendant of the thinking you study here. I’ve discarded that as of little use. Worse, as Chomsky documents, it reenforced the elitism of much of academia, that disregards from trying to solve real problems in society. Those problems fundamentally require engagement with all sorts of different people. Again, thanks. A great program but reenforces my conclusions about Neitzche.
Behind Nietzsche and Schopenhauer in the debate of art, is the same debate between Stendhal and Kant on art. Stendhal who said that « la beauté est la promesse du bonheur ». I have tu agree with him on that one rather than Kant. Only a true German can say that beauty is a disinterested contemplation.
Stendhal was one of Nietzsche’s favorites
@@untimelyreflectionsHave you read Stendhal ! They are very fun books ! I think it is interesting for you to make an analysis between Stendhal and Nietzsche !
Without researching, I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is no “Last Judgement” painting by Da Vinci, let alone in the Sistine Chapel. I’m guessing Mr. Weltgeist misspoke and meant to say Michelangelo.
Of course you're correct. I was already thinking of Da Vinci's Last Supper which we talked about a bit later.
This a bangerrr
When thinking about Nietzsche's claims about the production of art, I wonder whether his sample is too parochial, limited to a certain geography and historical tradition, i.e. the Hellenic. The passage where Nietzsche stresses the "indispensable ecstasy" which is the "outcome of all great desires" is a case in point. As a universal generalization about the production or performance of art, this seems false. I doubt, for example, whether this applies to all of the varieties of modern art, e.g. Jasper Johns, Jackson Pollack, or Andy Warhol; or to art of other cultures, e.g. Daoist painting. But even if we limit the claim to music, the claim seems doubtful. Not all modern western music seems to be the product of ecstasy and passion, e.g. the 12 tone music of the early 20th century, John Cage, and the minimalism of Reich, Glass, Part and others. If we expand our attention beyond the West, there is e.g. Indian classical musical music. When I hear the sarod, the Japanese koto or the Javanese gamelan, I never think of the performers as wanting "to impress their passions" on me. Nietzsche's aesthetic is clearly prescriptive: he has an agenda of promoting a new type of music, art, and philosophy, even if he has regrets about his early Wagnerian project. Schopenhauer's aesthetic seems to have wider scope. Not only does it accommodate western art, I suspect that it would also accommodate the more contemplative spirit of eastern art and music. He not only enjoyed playing the flute and listening to Rossini, he also enjoyed contemplating his Bronze Buddha.
pure fire
Excellent talk. Kant is the most over-rated philosopher of all time. He richly deserved all off Nietzsches drive-by ridicule pointed in his direction.
Yes
Peak x Peak
Leaping from mountaintops
The voices of Nietzsche
Thank you for the episode
It's nice to listen this before ww3
And here we are where it seems like its first violent birth spasms might really be kicking in. I hope the world is not about to be cast into even deeper darkness and confusion, but this is a hope against all hope. God help us and hold us.
Of the trillion of UA-cam videos this is in the top ten!
Wow!!
Finally! The nietz bois unite!
What did you just do? I don’t know, but it had this effect. Can we infer that it therefore happened for this reason? Let me try; nope. It doesn’t feel right: a different reason perhaps…
science is a form asceticism. Straight line to Foucault.
Your either Captain Beefheart or the Beatles, but you can't be both.
So many maybes from salts.
Maybe too many.
whoa!
But meat is murder.....