Palutena's down tilt can combo into fair and bair, but it really depends on a lot, like percent and how late of a hit you got. Also, Rob dair is active for 7 frames, and I'd consider that instead of ivysaur, even though they're both crazy. Also, Min Min doesn't really use her down tilt since down angled ramram f smash is better. If you still wanted a sliding kick downtilt move, sephiroths 2 frames more consistently than clouds or jokers.
Yea, Palu down tilt is honestly way better to hit around like 70 - 100 then anywhere after that bc then it’s harder to hit bair or fair after it as long as they SDI out
Guilty pleasure of mine is Incineroar down tilt. Decently consistent, leads to forward tilt which has a devasting angle and is ridiculous on small side zones like town, and at higher percents nearly guaranteed aerial combos. There are a lot of crazier moves obviously but the decent consistency and flowchart puts it up there for me.
Ridley’s forward tilt saves his character, an excellent two framing weapon. But what’s actually a really underrated two frame is Ridley’s forward smash, reaches well below the ledge and kills at like 50
1. There are times where there isn't always a 2 frame window to hit recovering opponents. For example, if Palu does up b aligned with the stage (horizontal) she will have frame 1 intangibility. This is just 1 of many examples. 2. Regarding Sora, you said that the drawback is that you have to back up to use it. This isn't true. You can do an instant dash attack, even if you are teetering on the ledge. You just have to be quick to input it. 3. You can combo off of Palu d tilt, but it can't be an early hit and they have to DI in or no DI. 4. Overall not bad tier list, I wouldn't have included snake f smash (too slow and the discharge is slow as well, he's better off setting up for ledge trap) or min min d tilt (angled down ram ram is much better 2 framing, plus she is in good position to ledge trap).
Good list! I'll throw my hat in the ring. With Hero, standing at roughly middle stage will allow you to 2-frame with Kaboom. It lasts forever, is massive enough to cover every ledge option, and is basically unavoidable if you're in the air. On top of that, it's a jumpscare (on or offline) and a devastating kill move.
I think Corrin pin is arguably the best 2 frame in the game. Non committal. Kill super early. And if you miss the timing it work as a ledge trap option. - normal getup you go forward kick. - roll goes backward kick. - jump you cancel and do short hop up air.
You do a pretty incredible job of setting healthy expectations for the comment section to not be filled with all the "but wait you forgot about this" energy.
I think MinMin's downward angle ram-ram f-smash is the best two framing move in the game. She can throw it out at roll distance so she'll be safe if it misses. It hits below the ledge since you can angle it down. It's a smash attack so you can charge it and make it kill early. And it's completely disjointed.
I'm surprised to see Robin's Arcfire isn't on here. It's easy to set up, reaches below the ledge, and sends at a good angle for follow up attacks. Though, I suppose that falls more along the lines of ledge trapping, instead of 2 framing. As for an actual 2 frame move, I recommending Byleth's and Corrin's Down Angled Side Smashes, and Sephiroth's Down Smash. Those all kill super early, and can reach below the ledge with their sweet spot hit boxes.
Thanks for the good video! I like this a lot. Two other moves I absolutey hate to deal with at the ledge are bowser flame breath and min min downward angled ram ram forward smash.
IMO, Wolf's F-tilt/D-tilt is an honorable mention. Sure, D-Smash is infamous. But his tilts are quick and even further cement him as the character who teaches you the "fundamentals". You learn how to 2-frame on reaction. You learn the right spacing for 2-framing (it's not that hard - I checked). They mostly work, but occasionally you'll need to do a matchup check. Other 2-framing moves are busted. But I think Wolf's is really good for teaching fundamentals. And F-tilt has better reward than Sora/Min-Min/Cloud. Was this move considered for the list?
Quite surprising Hero wasn't mentioned here. He does have a lot of tools, some of which 2 frame. One of the most notable ones is Flame/Kacrackle Slash. The main risk is only being able to 2 frame for one frame (f8), but it makes up for that in it's low reach, lack of commitment, and absurd killpower (sweetspot can 2 frame if close enough, and with PU, it will reliably kill below 40)
Pretty good list overall. Solid choices and one I didn't know was good like Min Min's D-Tilt (even if Down Angled Ram Ram steals the limelight) Other moves in this area include: -Bowser & Zard's Firebreath -Sonic's F-Smash -Rob's Dair -K. Rool's Dair -Isabelle's Fishing Rod (Though that's debatable) -Kazuya's D-Smash
2:44 my two cents on the fact that "dash attacks are less efficient at 2-framing because they're dash attacks" would be that by now, some mains of characters with busted 2-framing dash attacks have already learned how to Sticky Ledge Run so that it becomes a non-issue, and tbh it really isn't hard to perform
I'm surprised you didn't mention Incineroar's down tilt. I know you said you didn't want to saturate the list but I've always felt that that move was especially nasty. Maybe I'm just biased as an Incineroar main but d-tilt into short up neutral B or d-tilt into f-tilt are pretty broken confirms that can kill incredibly early and reliably. He's also got intangibility on his leg so it's pretty safe to throw out. Still though, good list.
Incin's is one of my favorite 2-framers. (Sorry, I'm commenting on another video way more than I should during my lunch break lol.) I think Incineroar's is a "fundamentals" downtilt in the same way Wolf's is. And it has has good reward, especially at mid-to-kill percent. And I think it's definitely better than Sora's dash attack.
i disagree on the best 2 frame dash attack because dr. mario can combo after his into up air or up b wich kills very early, against some characters its a free kill at 80
snake fsmash is not that great for 2frame, only because the bigger hitbox only apply to grounded opponent, the hitbox for 2 frame is not that big so catching 2frame with fsmash is harder than you think
my personal list would have been 1. rob side b (debatable whether this counts since you are off the stage but it is still a 2 frame) 2. minmin ramram downsmash 3. bowser ftilt 4. palu downtilt 5. ivysaur down air 6. soras thundaga (his dash attack doesnt 2 frame the whole cast btw) 7. seph down air 8. wolf downsmash 9. ridley ftilt 10. megaman downair
The point of it was easiest option, Rob side B for newbies could be difficult, timing the thundaga could be difficult for noobs. But everything is an input/option, and most of it actually is effective.
@@jonjonbrady7695 I mean if we are looking at the best 2 frame tools then that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be easy 2 framing tools. rob side b is also not that hard, you just walk offstage and instantly side b. I don't think that being beginner friendly should be taken into account, if the video was called "top 10 2 framing tools for beginners" then yes, but it isnt
I was honestly surprised to see that corrins insta pin (side-b) at ledge wasn’t included
it is not that easy to pull out dude, it requires a lot of spacing and timming
@@javiervergara5695 it is not as hard as you’re making it out to be, just practice setting it up and executing and I promise you’ll get it
Well a lot of these don’t need practice sooooo
Corrin pin + dair arent as hard as yall think. I could do it consistently w minimal practice
@@APOPSYMPHONY I’m saying bro, I learned it in 2 games of elite smash
Palutena's down tilt can combo into fair and bair, but it really depends on a lot, like percent and how late of a hit you got. Also, Rob dair is active for 7 frames, and I'd consider that instead of ivysaur, even though they're both crazy. Also, Min Min doesn't really use her down tilt since down angled ramram f smash is better. If you still wanted a sliding kick downtilt move, sephiroths 2 frames more consistently than clouds or jokers.
Yea, Palu down tilt is honestly way better to hit around like 70 - 100 then anywhere after that bc then it’s harder to hit bair or fair after it as long as they SDI out
Guilty pleasure of mine is Incineroar down tilt. Decently consistent, leads to forward tilt which has a devasting angle and is ridiculous on small side zones like town, and at higher percents nearly guaranteed aerial combos. There are a lot of crazier moves obviously but the decent consistency and flowchart puts it up there for me.
Ridley’s forward tilt saves his character, an excellent two framing weapon. But what’s actually a really underrated two frame is Ridley’s forward smash, reaches well below the ledge and kills at like 50
Corrin gets popular now all of a sudden she has the "best" [insert option]. She been the same character for a few years now.
omitting Steve dtilt is insane
That will be in part 2!
1. There are times where there isn't always a 2 frame window to hit recovering opponents. For example, if Palu does up b aligned with the stage (horizontal) she will have frame 1 intangibility. This is just 1 of many examples.
2. Regarding Sora, you said that the drawback is that you have to back up to use it. This isn't true. You can do an instant dash attack, even if you are teetering on the ledge. You just have to be quick to input it.
3. You can combo off of Palu d tilt, but it can't be an early hit and they have to DI in or no DI.
4. Overall not bad tier list, I wouldn't have included snake f smash (too slow and the discharge is slow as well, he's better off setting up for ledge trap) or min min d tilt (angled down ram ram is much better 2 framing, plus she is in good position to ledge trap).
Not having Ridley f tilt on here is insane.
I was actually surprised you didn't include Wario's f tilt
you were surprised?
Imo, the best 2 framing f tilt is Lucas‘. Good Video tho. Incin D tilt, Mac Down Smash, Rob dair and Jr F Smash are also really good.
Good list! I'll throw my hat in the ring. With Hero, standing at roughly middle stage will allow you to 2-frame with Kaboom. It lasts forever, is massive enough to cover every ledge option, and is basically unavoidable if you're in the air. On top of that, it's a jumpscare (on or offline) and a devastating kill move.
Super well made video. Surprised you don’t have more subscribers. Will be watching your videos in the future.
Thanks!
I think Corrin pin is arguably the best 2 frame in the game. Non committal. Kill super early. And if you miss the timing it work as a ledge trap option.
- normal getup you go forward kick.
- roll goes backward kick.
- jump you cancel and do short hop up air.
top 10 hurtbox shifts next please
Bowser Junior's tilted down Forward smash is very underrated for this
You do a pretty incredible job of setting healthy expectations for the comment section to not be filled with all the "but wait you forgot about this" energy.
I think MinMin's downward angle ram-ram f-smash is the best two framing move in the game. She can throw it out at roll distance so she'll be safe if it misses. It hits below the ledge since you can angle it down. It's a smash attack so you can charge it and make it kill early. And it's completely disjointed.
Agreed. Fully expected this to be part of the list instead of her down tilt.
i think seph down tilt is underated because if you hit the late hit you can get a true combo into forward air and sometimes angled up f tilt
I'm surprised to see Robin's Arcfire isn't on here. It's easy to set up, reaches below the ledge, and sends at a good angle for follow up attacks. Though, I suppose that falls more along the lines of ledge trapping, instead of 2 framing.
As for an actual 2 frame move, I recommending Byleth's and Corrin's Down Angled Side Smashes, and Sephiroth's Down Smash. Those all kill super early, and can reach below the ledge with their sweet spot hit boxes.
Ryu and Ken light down tilt are both really really good at it, I think, as they lead to combos 99% of the time :D
I really like this content, love to see more
Im actually surprised about all the reactions that everyone is surprised
My favorite ( because i main it ) is Diddy Kong Angel drop
Banana Zdrop + Dair
Thanks for the good video! I like this a lot. Two other moves I absolutey hate to deal with at the ledge are bowser flame breath and min min downward angled ram ram forward smash.
Yeah I'm surprised Ram Ram didn't make it
Here before half of all Ganondorf mains complain that his up tilt isn't on the list
IMO, Wolf's F-tilt/D-tilt is an honorable mention. Sure, D-Smash is infamous. But his tilts are quick and even further cement him as the character who teaches you the "fundamentals". You learn how to 2-frame on reaction. You learn the right spacing for 2-framing (it's not that hard - I checked). They mostly work, but occasionally you'll need to do a matchup check.
Other 2-framing moves are busted. But I think Wolf's is really good for teaching fundamentals. And F-tilt has better reward than Sora/Min-Min/Cloud.
Was this move considered for the list?
No, but I will look into it for part 2!
@@x_bell1142 Great to hear!
Quite surprising Hero wasn't mentioned here. He does have a lot of tools, some of which 2 frame. One of the most notable ones is Flame/Kacrackle Slash. The main risk is only being able to 2 frame for one frame (f8), but it makes up for that in it's low reach, lack of commitment, and absurd killpower (sweetspot can 2 frame if close enough, and with PU, it will reliably kill below 40)
Pretty good list overall.
Solid choices and one I didn't know was good like Min Min's D-Tilt (even if Down Angled Ram Ram steals the limelight)
Other moves in this area include:
-Bowser & Zard's Firebreath
-Sonic's F-Smash
-Rob's Dair
-K. Rool's Dair
-Isabelle's Fishing Rod (Though that's debatable)
-Kazuya's D-Smash
Forgot to mention, but Shulk's Fair as well.
Isabelle Fishing Rod would be good if it was slightly less wonky
I vote Dedede's dash attack, lasts 16 frames and the early hitbox will delete them because it's the strongest dash attack in the game.
surprised you didn't include game and watch chef
Sonic f smash and diddy f tilt are definitely good options if you ever make a part 2 to this, really good 2 framing options
Luigis d tilt is super spamable I’m surprised its not on the list
Luigi dtilt is spammable at ledge and can 2 frame. Underrated imo.
2:44
my two cents on the fact that "dash attacks are less efficient at 2-framing because they're dash attacks" would be that by now, some mains of characters with busted 2-framing dash attacks have already learned how to Sticky Ledge Run so that it becomes a non-issue, and tbh it really isn't hard to perform
Really enjoyed the video! Subbed!
Thanks!
Bowser Jr's fsmash is pretty wild at the ledge. Great list tho, hope to see a part 2!
You missed the opportunity to have a projectile with Mii Gunner's grenade. But otherwise solid list
I'm surprised Bowsers flame breath isn't here. It's free damage on a lot of the cast.
Mr Game and Watch's Chef.
Super easy to use, the opponent just gets cooked
nice list!
Thanks
Game and watch.. f tilt. That chair lingers.
Ivysaur's Down Air hitbox actually scales to the size of your tv. It's just that big.
Hero’s dash attack can also two frame.. it’s such a satisfying move
Ganon up tilt
You hardly land on stage or as a 2 frame
But it looks cool
+Style
Facts
Terry's Power Geysers deserved a spot on this list
very good video!
I really hope that it's just that I'm bad, but B&K dtilt really feels heavily character dependant because it misses the majority of time
Idk man, Ganon's volcano kick is pretty good...
lmao
Funny I actually landed that 2 frame twice on an Inkling in tournament.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Incineroar's down tilt. I know you said you didn't want to saturate the list but I've always felt that that move was especially nasty. Maybe I'm just biased as an Incineroar main but d-tilt into short up neutral B or d-tilt into f-tilt are pretty broken confirms that can kill incredibly early and reliably. He's also got intangibility on his leg so it's pretty safe to throw out. Still though, good list.
Incin's is one of my favorite 2-framers. (Sorry, I'm commenting on another video way more than I should during my lunch break lol.) I think Incineroar's is a "fundamentals" downtilt in the same way Wolf's is. And it has has good reward, especially at mid-to-kill percent. And I think it's definitely better than Sora's dash attack.
Ridley ftilt is also really damn good
Please show off more good ways to do this with more characters!
dedede dash attack
pre patch pichu f tilt
Lol min min would just sit at roll distance and ramram smash the ledge tho😅
Banjo Kazooie side B
on god if there's one thing i hate about this game it's giving characters random intangability on moves
Would you consider luigi dtilt? Or maybe his zair too? You see us spam them like no tommorow
Magic Burst should be here
Belmont holy water.
Small factual mistake on Ness down smash. It is not the only charging smash with an active hitbox. Corrin’s F-smash also has one 😊
That's why he said only down smash in the game.
@@Flametixexactly, other smash attacks have charging hitboxes but Ness’s is the only down smash
Min min down tilt is def not better than ram ram
Ness' down smash at ledge is utterly broken. How did they think it was fair? It's baffling.
i disagree on the best 2 frame dash attack because dr. mario can combo after his into up air or up b wich kills very early, against some characters its a free kill at 80
where the hecc is rob's down air
Lucas forward tilt can also 2-frame
Wolf?
Yes.
snake fsmash is not that great for 2frame, only because the bigger hitbox only apply to grounded opponent, the hitbox for 2 frame is not that big so catching 2frame with fsmash is harder than you think
mewtwo down smash is like snakes forward smash but no endlag
Diddy ftilt
Min min ram ram should be here instead of her down tilt
Bowser and Charizard neutral b
Bowser jr. Down angled forward smash. Its like ness down smash
my personal list would have been
1. rob side b (debatable whether this counts since you are off the stage but it is still a 2 frame)
2. minmin ramram downsmash
3. bowser ftilt
4. palu downtilt
5. ivysaur down air
6. soras thundaga (his dash attack doesnt 2 frame the whole cast btw)
7. seph down air
8. wolf downsmash
9. ridley ftilt
10. megaman downair
The point of it was easiest option, Rob side B for newbies could be difficult, timing the thundaga could be difficult for noobs. But everything is an input/option, and most of it actually is effective.
@@jonjonbrady7695 I mean if we are looking at the best 2 frame tools then that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be easy 2 framing tools. rob side b is also not that hard, you just walk offstage and instantly side b. I don't think that being beginner friendly should be taken into account, if the video was called "top 10 2 framing tools for beginners" then yes, but it isnt
What about R.O.B Dsmash
Bro forgot incineroar downtilt which combos into Upsmash, Bair, Fair and Ftilt and is a killconfirm
That will be in part 2!
and its crazy to hear you say ''palu down tilt 2frame have no combo'', could you just watch some good palu players' gamesets bro?
no incineroar down tilt ? no minmin arms ? lol you just have no idea about what moves are actually useful for 2frame comepetition
Ike should not be on here
bad list¡