This isn’t really related to this video, more like a potential video idea if you have any thoughts about it, but seeing helluva boss in the video and with hazbin hotel coming out soon, it made me think about how vivziepop writes her characters to swear a lot…like a lot, to the point where I think it’s less funny and more distracting honestly. I’m not even a religious person or anything, I swear all the time myself, but I think swearing excessively can usually be a sign of lazy writing and immaturity. Like, yeah they’re in hell, but I’ve seen other shows where the characters use swearing occasionally or for emphasis that are actually funny. Idk it’s something I see no one really talk about so what are your thoughts? Sorry for the ramble. TLDR: Do you think excessive swearing in helluva boss and hasbin hotel is considered immature and lazy writing at worst?
Absolutely hate how Orochimaru had zero to no consequences. I can get Sasuke, who is supposed to be more of a "Lost/tragic antihero" (who still committed SEVERAL war crimes) but Orochimaru??? How is this guy even allowed to continue his sick experiments, let alone live?? It's beyond me.
@samflood5631 tbh lot of characters should have stayed dead. Almost no one died through the entire Great Ninja War arc, not counting Shikamaru's dad (and other adults who had no screen time) and Neji because... just because lol. At the other hand, a lot of characters were revived left and right, a lot of them even stayed alive like Tsunade (and Kakashi a bit earlier)
@@looniemoonie5955 really don’t know what was going through the mind of the author when he made that decision. Did he just forget everything a orochimaru did???
@@anxhelovucinaj1576Killing Danzo (and raiding the five kage summit), working with the akatsuki, attempting to destroy the leaf village and above all tries to kill naruto
The Akzeriuth scene always hurts. For all of Luke's brattiness, he's still a seven-year-old, quite literally with the whole clone thing. The guy's only real father figure was Vandesdelca (yep, that's his full name), as he comments the man was the only one to praise him for his successes, scold him if he screwed up, and took him seriously. Add being the Order of Lorelei's Commandant, and you have a man the whole world respects, including most of the party. The fact he's brainwashed into doing the deed doesn't help matters, but the entire part sans Luke outright swings into Designated Hero territory when it'a revealed _several of them already knew something in regard to said tragedy;_ Guy had full knowledge of Van's plans, Tear had every reason to view Van as a villain, Jade found out key information about the plan, Anise was a mole put on by Mohs, and Natalia heard enough of Luke and Van's talk beforehand to at least have something to be suspicious about, and some of them _know_ Luke is truly seven years old, and they still give him crap which they justify with how he was spoiled and didn't try to improve early on. Also, Van knew from _the Score itself_ that Luke was fated to destroy Akzeriuth, and he uses that to kickstart a war. They don't even give the kid a good reason to actually distrust Van outside of telling him to do more critical thinking for himself and not go rushing in on the authority of others, which breaks the aesop they were trying to set up in the first place. Sure, Luke does change and become less of an ass, but he gets put through the wringer a bit too hard for it to fully work for me.
It's been year since I played Abyss, but I do remember feeling really bad for Luke. Yeah, he was kinda a piece of shit, but it's hard to blame him and, as you said, he was used by basically the only person in the world who really gave a crap about him and whom he really cared about.
Yeah, Luke's my favorite lead for the Tales series, and a standout JRPG protag in general for me, but the party he has are all comprised of hypocritical assholes. A lot of it comes down to cultural differences between the East and West. In the East, taking responsibility is very important, regardless of how old you are, and is very collectivist, so the party left Luke because he refused to take responsibility for what happened, regardless of the fact that he was being manipulated in the 1st place. Family honor is also heavily emphasized, hence why Anise isn't really given much flack even though her actions in the long run costed the group far more than Luke did. The West, by contrast, places more focus on individuality and the ways people can affect you, as such, while yes, Luke's actions led to the loss of many lives, but he's still just a kid who was tragically manipulated by an adult figure that he trusted, and was unaware of the damage and risks involved. Yes, it was for selfish reasons, but at the end of the day, he'd be let off because he was just a kid who wanted to be free from the toxic and confined life he'd been held in and was manipulated by the closest thing he had to a father. By contrast, Anise would be given far more flack if this was made by the West because, while her parents were held hostage, she was still perfectly aware that the people she was working for had ill intentions and never once tried to inform the party or anyone else at any point what was going on.
@@shadowwarrior3444 Reminds me a thing I read on a discussion: in the West a apology is admitingyour wrongs, in the East is being a scapegoat to a group
What I love of Chai's developement is that feels earned, that' why the ending is satisfactory for me. Also in game, just seeing him during the team attacks and cheering up Peppermint, Macaron and Korsica, thanking them between sequences is dope.
Bony Clay's final moments in the anime were genuinely heartfelt, sure we know he survives in the end, but it's still sad that inspite of everything they went through, he needed to stay behind in order for the others to escape and the fact Luffy ultimately fails in saving Ace just makes it sadder.
Spoilers, but I’d say one of the worst examples is Akito Sohma from Fruits Basket, she abused her entire family, controlled, gaslit them, almost killed 1 of them, almost handicapped another one of them, and threatened to kill Tohru, then she had next to no consequences, idc what her mother was like, she doesn’t deserve forgiveness from her family
I agree to a degree. The problem is that Akito’s potential journey ends too soon and focus instead on that fact that everyone is free of the curse. Which isn’t too bad because, frankly, I didn’t want to follow Akito anymore. I feel like this also happens in stuff like Steven Universe and Rise of the TMNT. Iffyness on the redemptions aside, they both show how it can be done wrong. With Rise, yes, stories had to be cut and condensed. However, when it comes to the character of Baron Draxum, the responsibility of redeeming him and moving on is essentially Michelangelo getting him an apartment, a job where he literally throttles a child without consequences and doesn’t need to do anything whilst the person he made the life of a living hell, Splinter, is told to forgive Draxum to begin the healing process. Mikey, you’re not a professional therapist. Stop. Steven Universe has the other problem; moving too quick and timeskipping over the actual work. In both cases, it’s very much a sense of “who cares about seeing these characters get reasons to be better and making that harsh journey?”
If you read the sequel manga you learn that she actually does have some consequences. Not sure if it's to the extent that she deserved, but she's not really forgiven by everyone. When Rin lashes out at the others; people seem to make the assumption that all is forgiven with the others between Akito. The truth is that they're just exhausted and don't have the energy to keep hating and being angry at her. Most of them just want to hurry up and sever the ties and want nothing to do with her at that point. In the sequel we learn that she doesn't really have any contact from most of the former zodiac members. (Tohru is basically one of her only friends.) Not only that but she's even been attacked and had to listen to a lot of hurtful things. She doesn't complain, and thinks it's deserved. In Fruits Basket it's easy to hate her, but in the sequel I can't help but feel a little bad for her. It feels like to an extent Akito is the only one who never actually got to move on.
@@kohaiame2691 I just can’t feel bad for her. Everything that’s going on with her is honestly pretty deserved considering her behavior in the first series. Kind of glad that we got to see a character actually face consequences for their terrible behavior.
Thank you for providing some more nuance to the Scott pilgrim situation. It’s exhausting hearing people only want to talk about literally only the first line of the entire freaking series when it comes to his story arc.
Feel like Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho is a good example. Hiei at the start is just a demon criminal looking to cause as much destruction and death as possible and even when he joins Yusuke and his group he's still violent and a jerk, but gradually we see there is more to him and he gradually becomes a more likeable guy and by the end has for the most part moved past his villanious side.
Literally every video about redemption arcs talk about Zuko, he is THE example everyone mentions. It's a breath of fresh air to see a video about redemption arcs without mentioning him tbh.
I believe that an issue with a lot of more modern redemption is when it's treated as expected by the writers. Like in what I'd describe as "gacha game culture" where a character is meant to be marketable and reusable, it's frequent that you can have characters either treated with kid gloves in their awfulness or be way too easily "redeemed" by simply showing a tragic backstory, not changing them at all but saying "oh they're still awful, just an ally now so it's fine" or in some instances saying, "It happened off-screen." It isn't exclusive to gacha games but it's where it's most frequent since they have the general vibe of trying to make everyone a character that people open their wallets for.
@@jiin6 A few examples that I've come across? - Carol from Symphogear. Literally tries to destroy the world in the third season because she wants to prove her dad's theories correct. Gets treated as tragic because her dad is dead and because she also dies in the season. In most future marketing and in a later season (and the gacha game spinoff because of course) she's treated as being more or less an antihero. - Aguilera from Kamen Rider Revice. She's one of the leaders of a cult dedicated to reviving a demon that is the main antagonist of the series. She gets backstabbed and then just hangs out with one of the main cast for a day and turns good and her history with the cult is more or less swept under the rug. This was confirmed to have been a rewrite and might have been due to the character being popular (ironically only as a villain). - In Xenoblade 2 the main antagonistic group are (with a couple of final boss exceptions) recruitable in New Game Plus and the overall only real acknowledgement it gets in the writing is, "Well let bygones be bygones." These aren't really gacha games (Xenoblade 2 has a gacha element though) but the overarching idea is just that they easily redeem the characters because of some marketing reason. I just noticed that this trend became increasingly common as gacha games became more popular and it's almost always needing to redeem the villain or excuse their actions SPECIFICALLY so that they can be recruited into the main cast. Fate/Grand Order is a gacha game that tends to do this, there's a chapter where the primary antagonist only redemption is, throwing in, "She had a tragic past and gets betrayed" in the last chapter she appears. In the game the fandom tends to be fine with this type of writing so it happens really freaking often and it's where I first started to notice, "It's because they want to sell this character."
@@Zetact_ Honestly for Xenoblade 2, I hardly consider the Torna blades’ recruitment canon to the main story, as Akhos and Patroka both clearly died on-screen, and while Mikhail would be more likely to survive, I feel his death would’ve been more fitting for him. I think they’re mainly just recruitable for the sake of using them, not an actual redemption.
@@Zetact_ Carol is pretty explicitly still the villain for the entirety of the third season? Like, you can make a character tragic and still be the villain at the same time. She's only treated as heroic when she comes back in the fifth season because she's a) Technically just a recreation of Carol's personality created from the remnants of her memories in someone else's body b) fighting to stop the end of the world. So I wouldn't call her character redeemed? Especially when the gacha is stuff is pretty non-canonical and fan-servicey in the first place. Edit: Also, which antagonist are you talking about for FGO? If you're talking about Tamamo Vitch, then yeah. Tunguska Sanctuary was just badly written as a whole. I don't think Vitch even has a "tragic backstory".
If Luke gets at least a fifth of the blame for sinking an entire town into a pool of poison than tear gets another fifth as well, because the whole thing with her trying to assassinate her brother. Was that she knew that he was up to something and was a master manipulator, and she still left Luke alone with him even though she knew he had the mentality of a child.
I agree. It was annoying how the party treated Luke. Van was a master and a father figure to Luke. He had no reason to distrust him, but when Luke asked. questions, they brushed him off
@@tyroi1059 While I like the story overall, I did feel that tear and guy we’re running away from their part of the responsibility with the incident. Even without Guy having some inkling of what was happening, because Van had been talking to him in secret, he was still, the person most aware that Luke was extremely naïve and manipulatable, and as you can tell, Tear was on the opposite end with her brother. Yes he needed to take responsibility because he allowed an ability that he made aware of as being dangerous be abused but even though they had warned him that Van was a dangerous liar, they still left him alone with them. Heck, Ion was almost as active participant as a van, since he had been reading the forbidden score for the grand maestro, and knew exactly what was about to happen, and still opened the door.
@@emeraldpichu1Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been years since I last played the game), but didn't Jade know Luke was a replica? I understand where they were going; Luke needed to grow up and stop being selfish and spoiled, but I feel like Luke's development with Akzeriuth was kind of forced.
@@tyroi1059 while I don’t agree with Jade but at least he was very consistent about being a giant coward who didn’t wanna face his past until he was forced to and being quiet about Luke was just part of him, compartmentalizing his problems.
Yeah Jade knew but didn't say anything but then again Jade is also a terrible person despite his humor and it can be said her is probably the most responsible for creating a lot of issues in the game
One thing that makes Scott Pilgrim’s development in Takes Off so interesting is that despite being an objectively shitty person, he also isn’t unlikeable. His absolute unearned confidence gets him into trouble, but combined with his earnest passion, it also makes him fun to hang out with. He’s also unashamed of his shortcomings and doesn’t criticize other people for theirs, allowing anyone to honestly be themselves around him-something that the text of the story strongly emphasized as the reason why Kim and Ramona were even attracted to him in the first place. He may be a very shallow, unhelpful person, that will cause you trouble in the long term, but he is downright *charming,* and that’s why he even has a cool gay roommate, two ex girlfriends, and a band in the first place.
It was confirmed by the Scott Pilgrim creator than the comic ending was untouched and that it’s in its on timeline. The show comes from a different timeline. So it’s not the same Scott. No lessons were unlearned.
... Great, word of god - Something that wasn't actually confirmed in the show, and had to be pointed out by the writer in some obscure manner... GREAT WRITING.
@@Mangakamen I don't know how fair it is in this situation when it's two different media that people will watch separately. The author is just saying that these two aren't connected in terms of continuity, so I don't think it has to do with writing
@ashroy9454 ... Well, for one - It makes reference to the original story, that's literally the motivation of Future Scott, and it's blatantly explained. And for two, yes, it doesn't have to do with writing - If you're claiming that the original story is separate, don't include elements that contradict that - Which Takes off clearly does.
Guts's redemption from Black Swordsman arc going foward is my favorite to this day From demonic demon slayer with little care for others into a badass dad of his squad
Honestly Luke's redemption is by far my favorite character in the Tales series and I love his story. Despite looking like a teen, the guy's literally a child at heart, mind, and body. He doesn't understand things that normal people would because he's been sheltered by his family, and treated with little to no respect by the gang until he changed. But you can't exactly blame him for his actions, he didn't know what was going on because people kept info from him and had to basically learn the hard way of his consequences, he was lied to someone he deemed as a father figure (Van Grants) who actually told him what was right, what was wrong, and scolded him. Sure everyone had some kinda idea Van was bad (like Jade, Guy, etc) but never filled Luke in on it (from what I remember) so they leave him out of practically everything but still expect him to know what he did to Akzeriuth and its people. I understand they're pissed at him but again, you can't expect someone like him to understand that someone who he trusted hurt him, ruined his and countless lives, and never tell him about it or tell him how he shouldn't rush in blindly. It's always about blaming Luke, never the other characters getting blamed besides maybe Anise and her involvement with Ion's fate.
Another good example of redemption: Miles Edgeworth. Another bad example of redemption: Saint Germain (Castlevania anime version - literally doomed the world just so he can reunite with a woman he simped hard for, even after realizing he was being manipulated by Death).
Late to the party, but I don't think Saint Germain is a bad example of redemption. He is truly despicable at the end, serving only himself. However, he died trying to help the heroes against Death, and possibly helped Trevor and/or Dracula and his wife in his final moments. If he was still alive maybe some form of punishment would be in order, but he died and failed to get what he wanted, what point is there in hating him still? Or maybe it's more apt to say that he has not redeemed himself, but that I forgive him because at the final moment he gave all he had to give. Which is maybe not surprisingly very Christian when I think about it.
@@thomaslacroix6011 One good deed does not correct a lot of wrongs. He literally sacrificed and tricked people in order to just have a chance at seeing a woman he had a crush on. The effort and cost did not equate to the potential reward. His last act didn't redeem him. The whole thing just made people pity him at how pathetic he was. Side note: He didn't help Dracula. He helped in tormenting him and his wife by trapping them in a makeshift body, which was going to drive Dracula insane and go on another murderous rampage (Death explained this).
@@neonnwave1 it was never explained how Dracula and his wife returned to life, nor how Trevor managed to escape the castle. If I remember well, the key flash for a moment in the hands of Saint Germain at the end of the battle, suggesting something happened. He was also manipulated by a shapeshifting being as old as humanity to believe he was pursuing alchemy's ultimate achievement, and that fact was revealed only after he was far too gone to stop, the innocents were already dead and Death would just kill him if he didn't finish it. I feel like that should count for something. My personal view of redemption is that at any point a character can be redeemed, if they pay the price, up to everything they have to give. Often for really despicable characters, that means death, or imprisonment even after they have done everything in their power to fix the situation. In this situation, he gave up his life and his dream, so there's no higher price he could have paid.
@@thomaslacroix6011 The key thing is what brought Trevor into the Infinite Corridor and Trevor found his way out of it. As for Dracula and Lisa coming back, it's due to sabotaging the ritual by destroying the makeshift body which released their souls. That wasn't done by Saint Germain. Only saving Trevor was his doing. Yes, Saint Germain was being manipulated but he could have listened to his conscience and said no from the start. Instead he went along with it knowing full well what horrors it would bring. And when Death revealed himself, explained the entire plan and admitted to fooling him.... Germain continued with the ritual when he could have refused in order to save humanity.
In Scott Pilgrim Takes Off, I definitely agree that the whole thing could have used one or two more episodes to round everything out properly, expanding on where Old Scott and Future Ramona went wrong and maybe adjusting the plot so that Young Ramona plays an active role in helping Young Scott get back to the past while at the same time giving the Twins some focus. However, I don’t see Old Scott and Future Ramona having relationship issues as an explicit bad ending to the comic. The old timeline is starting from an alternate universe where Nega-Scott doesn’t exist and his character growth is more on par with the movie. Comic!Scott and Comic!Ramona still have their happy ending, as far as I’m concerned.
Another example of a jerk protagonist being redeemed that I’d like to bring up is Neku Sakuraba, from The World Ends With You. (Spoilers inbound below, obviously…) Sure, you’re probably gonna hate the kid at the start; there’s not much to redeem him and he actively tries to KILL his partner to get out of the game (granted, he thought he would die if he didn’t do so, but he also sucks at apologizing for it later after the misunderstanding was cleared)… but by sticking around the kindness of others like Shiki and Mr. Haneko, you can see how he starts coming out of his misanthropy and tries to support them in their worst moments. You can really see him grow from one week ingame to the next, pushing aside Joshua’s own misanthropy and supporting former enemy Beat as they go from just saving each other to inadvertently saving ALL of Shibuya once they learn of the mass mind-control plot behind the scenes. It’s what makes TWEWY one of my favorite game stories to have experienced thus far… He also gets put through the wringer, like, a *lot*. In some way, it makes his frustrations feel a little more justified when his attempts to come back to life are constantly yanked away, and I guess in some way it balances out his jerkishness.
@@maxmasse1029 Agreed, I think Thorfinn is my favorite character ever written. His journey is extremely relatable to me and he is the exact kind of man I want to be and try to be
IMO Scott Pilgrim Takes Off feels like a multiverse introduction, it was only one of the many endings that could have happened after the comics ended, with scott getting old and becoming his own dark reflection, while in other iterations Nega-Scott is Scott's own vices and what he hates about himself. ofc its still up to interpretation, but that's just my opinion.
Off topic but I love the bit at the end about improvement. I too want to keep getting better, for me right now, It's art. You've actually been a huge inspiration to me in trying to improve my art style and writing. So, thanks!
For Scott Pilgrim, I don't think it really kicks the comic ending in the nuts like you said since that show, the comics, and the movie are all their own timeline stuff. And if the point was you were supposed to learn from Scott, I think the point was something you already touched on. Your personal growth doesn't just stop when you reach whatever goal, that and you have to be careful not to backslide into old bad habits. Which both Scott and Ramona did in that timeline.
@MangaKamenTheRealOne Yeah, it wasn't stated in the show itself, fair enough. I just know the creators said that, and it's also how I approach a lot of things that aren't trying to be a 1 to 1 adaptation. If only to not bemoan every change. 😆 And I don't fully see it as dashing the ending as much as it being another lesson that some people need that you have to actively keep working on yourself and not just have one big adventure and become a better person forever afterwards. But maybe I'm reading too much into Canadian FLCL. 😂
15:00 It’s always a trip for voices you’d hear in western toons to come out of characters from very Japanese games Watching this video inspired me to think of ideas for this fanfic. Basically it’d be about Kirby making new friends in the face of a multiversal calamity. I had the idea of Invader Zim being a crass jackass (Due to the reality of his mission being fake setting in) who aside from Kirby is only barely tolerated by the rest of the main cast. Perhaps due to the positive influence of Kirby, Zim would move on from being an incompetent invader turned stupid drunk to a large ham gunslinger.
I'm really glad to get that copy of Tales of the Abyss for the 3DS when I saw it. I love hunting for games that I long missed out on in their initial debut.
I've been listening to the indie synth pop duo Magdalena Bay and I feel like this line from one of their songs sums up a lot of characters. "He was a lonely cynic Neither hero nor villain."
A very different theme of entertainment, but when redeemable characters, especially protagonists are mentioned I like to think about Gumball from TAWOG due, not only him growing *worse* as the season progressed, but him being stated as an awful friend by the show itself, yet the antics of each episode make him incredibly iconic and at the very least he's decent to the people around him when he *wants* to be, or at the very least when the whole theme of an episode is that all the dread he causes is completely unintentional just because he is a massive goofball
Honestly Bowser Jr's Journey should've made it on here for how much they developed the prince's character. At the start he's a real unlikable prick who basically mistreats his adoptive siblings because he thinks that his dad only got as strong as he thinks he is because he's unreliant on his minions and does his dirty work solo, to the point where he went from travelling with an entourage of 7 Koopalings to Morton and Kamek being the last remaining elites of his dad's army still giving a crud about him (ok to be fair some of them were forcefully removed from the story while some deliberately left for personal reasons). Then when he lost Morton and was left all alone with Kamek being the last of his family that he can still cling onto he starts to appreciate the minions more and even recognizes how much of a prick he was to his siblings and caretakers and makes amends with them, including Roy who was the first of the Koopalings to deliberately leave Jr's side due to him being a complete ass in the beginning of the game. Honestly it's such a shame that Bowser Jr's Journey flopped as hard as it is both from a gameplay standpoint and from a sales standpoint because these games are like the heavy hitters in terms of what made the Koopa Troop in my eyes, superior than the Mushroom Kingdom as characters. Even if that game wasn't necessarily good gameplay wise the one final bang Alphadream gave to their literal final product was to give Bowser Jr one of the most emotional and well written development arcs in Mario history, nay, one of the best character development arcs I've ever seen, and for that I respect it.
I'd say Vegeta from Sragon Ball Z is one of my favorite redemption arc stories. He started out as a ward (lackey, henchman? I don't remember what he properly was in Frieza's Empire) to Lord Frieza, and when he was thrown away, he began changing. He started as being cold and antagonistic towards the Z Fighters team, but as time went on, he began showing compassion for his son, and the people around him, in his own strange way. He wasn't immediately forgiven, and through every roadblock he faced during his time with the Z Fighters, he learned humility and humanity through his successes and failures. I still have to see the Buu Arc to finalize my statement, so I'll edit this when I'm finished with that.
It's so embarrassing that there are people who still try to act like Forespoken is some sort of underappreciated masterpiece and Frey is an amazing character
Full metal alchemist manga/brotherhood spoilers: Greed was perfect I mean: starts slightly dickish Then redeems himself And at last died for his friends
hold on a second 18:06 i dont know anything about Abyss but i recognize that voice anywhere. Thats the voice actor of Haseo from the dot Hack//GU series, a personal favorite of mine and another character that starts as an asshole that later becomes good.
I'm all for the change in avatar, to represent yourself. I'm used to the swapping of looks by now. However, there's no need to change your tone in with the avatar. Just speak how you normally would, be yourself.
I still need to finish Tales of the Abyss... then again, I'm thinking of just starting a new game to try and get everything. Still need to play some other Tales games, too.
Should we expect a follow-up next week talking about the much less common inverse, corruption arcs? Where a good character slides down toward a much less noble path.
You know as someone who managed to grab my librarybooks and backpack on the way out and whose sister managed to get her cat when our house started burning leaving a bag of MONEY that you could just pickup in like 2 seconds is beyond stupid.
If someone is interested in a story with character focus and redemption I recommend Library of Ruina (game), it has a good story and the 2 best protagonists in my opinion, though a warning is that the difficulty may become vertical.
The biggest thing I've seen about writing a redemption is that you don't rush it, and you make it clear that the character may be flawed/bad but has human elements. The biggest one is probably Zuko, given that his redemption is his entire arc and feels like proper character growth for him. It's all about making a giant satisfying payoff, where the character slowly grows over time until they finally blossom or hit a dark enough point that they end up shaping up to face the consequences head on. I mean, Vivian's character in TTYD follows these. You meet her in Chapter 2 as a villain but it's still obvious she's not as terrible as Beldam, and it plants the seeds for her to move on from her abusive sister.
Credit to Bentham, he didn't get free from Impel Down, but he _did_ succeed Ivankov as the Queen of Newkama Land (honestly, translating "Okama Way" as "Oh, Come My Way" as a play on the phrase kinda stops working after the Newkamas show up since they aren't called "Newcomers", but that's just me) as a result, that counts for something, right?
Spoilers: To me, "Scott Pilgrim: Takes Off" is more a sequel to the movies than it is an adaptation of the comics. In it, Scott actually becoming an evil ex and Ramona becomethe catalyst to that which would make sense since they weren't as well developed in the movie compared to the comics.
14:48 Have you played Dark Cloud 2 by any chance? It came out earlier the same year as Teen Titans and Max in that game also happens to be voiced by Scott.
It's a missed opportunity for you to not talk about the Diamonds from Steven Universe, which is a WHOLE can of worms regarding the topic of redemption.
An important thing is that they admit that they were wrong. Too many were only sorry about their plans not working. There is also "redemptions" where other characters put more effort than said character in that "redemption." I hate how Dracula and Isaac were handled in the Castlevania cartoon since it acts like they didn't do anything wrong.
I thought they were handled alright but from what I understand there was actually meant to be another season which is why the last one feels so awkward and rushed.
@@thomasraines1396 The writing of season 4 felt like they thought they will be given infinite episodes and they did the writing equivalent of shading random dots in the test sheet. The pacing of season 2 was both too slow (on scenes that don't actually move the plot) and too fast (on scenes that featuring the main characters). Season 3 was a filler arc for everybody but Isaac. Alucard is alone in castle then goes back to being alone in the castle. Trevor and Sypha go on vacation then come back from vacation. Hector became a slave then stayed a slave. I'm not going to bother explaining why Dracula and Isaac didn't earn anything.
Dante Alighieri from Visceral's Dante's Inferno is certainly worth a mention. He committed brutal atrocities and cheated on Beatrice, yet faces the literal forces of Hell, including Lucifer himself, to free her soul.
I can't remember what the intro song's name is, and it's driving me crazy. I know I've already heard it like plenty of times, but can't figure it out, can somebody help?
I'd heavily recommend the webcomic "Unordinary". It has Protagonist corruption arcs, protagonist redemption arcs and antagonist redemption arcs. Spoilers The Unordinary world is a world where superpowers are the ordinary and the main character John, doesn't have powers, and he goes to a school basically catering to high powered people (the world is a very "survival of the strongest" where the strong bully the weak), where he gets by, by analyzing other people's powers and deciding if he can fight back, if he should run, or just take the hits to avoid further conflict. As the series goes on, stronger and stronger people notice him and they start digging up his past. It eventually peaks where the top dog of the school finds out John is actually very very powerful, and he gets angry that this apex power user is acting super meakly when he could dominate. As we and the top dog (Arlo) find out, John was actually kicked out of his last school for being "too violent" which even the other characters of this "the strong takes from the weak" world is shocked by. This sets John off and slowly spirals back into his hyper violent past, where if someone angers or even annoys him, he beats them half to death and leaves them where they lie. As this goes on we find out that John actually was born with no powers and was bullied because of it, and when he got his power as a late bloomer and mastered it, he took action that he felt was justified, because that's how "they" treated him. We learn that after he was kicked out of school, the authorities took him and basically tortured and brainwashed him to think his powers were bad. And that brings us back to the story where John kept going and going, where the other low levels at first looked up to him for putting high tiers down, now feared him for how brutal he was becoming, even trying to stop the high tiers from putting together an organization to help the low tiers because he thought it was too little to late. He was only brought back by his friend who went through quite a lot as well to help him. He didn't just become a good person again, he has to take time off once he cooled down to actually think and reflect on what he did and who he was. And even when he got back to school he wasn't just accepted back, everyone still feared him and he ever so barely, slowly started to gain some people trust again, and later on even started teaching a self defense class to who ever wanted to learn, he made some slip ups, and the angry vengeful god of a personallity slipped past, but he was constantly working on it. Now, Arlo, the dick who couldn't let sleeping lions lay. He actually goes through an arc as well where he thinks that the strong rule, and the authority has everyone's best interest at heart, slowly gains a heart, doesn't ever fully admit he did anything wrong, but oh so slightly, barely changes how he acts, so we can see that he's had a change of heart, and even tries to help his friends when he realizes the authorities aren't all he thought they were. And those are just the main character, and one of the main side characters
So what are your thoughts on some of the other Tales of Games? Tales of Vesperia Tales of Grace F Tales of Xillia Tales of Zesteria Tales of Berseria Tales of Arise
I've heard that Tales of Arise is REALLY divisive in terms of how the story was played out and that not many people talked about it from what I've seen.
I'm obviously not MangaKamen, but I still wanna give my thought anyway. Vesperia- Love it and one of my favorite games ever even if the final villain feels pretty weak. Everytime I go back to it, I find something new. Also my favorite gameplay due to feeling like a fighting game. Also also, it's my first Tales game Graces F- Hate it. Hate the story. Hate the characters. Everyone says it has the best gameplay, but I don't remember it being all that amazing. Zesteria- Meh. Story was whatever, and despite being a massive Mary Sue, Rose was somehow one of the more enjoyable characters in the game. Also was not a fan of the whole "human bad" thing. The open world was dumb and pointless and bad. Haven't played the DLC, but I did see how they turned Rose into a massive bitch for seemingly no reason and I hate it. Zesteria the X is pretty fun, though. Berseria-One of my favorite games of all time and Velvet is my 2nd favorite character ever. Combat is fun, but I still vastly prefer Vesperia's. The world is also adittedly bland visually and unnecessarily big with too much backtracking. Arise- bought it for $5, but haven't actually opened it yet, so no real opinion. I will say that the whole "appeal to Western audiences" approach does not leave me optimistic in the slightest.
@@s3studios597Looked into Graces after seeing this, and the general consensus I could find is that the story is weaker due to having a cliched plot with the power of friendship without any deconstructions like the series usally does, and while the characters are fun, only Asbel has a meaningful chracter arc, while people like Pascal, Malik, and Cheria are just along for the ride. The game lets you mix and match character attributes thanks to the Titles, and everyone has their own unique fighting style, but as a result, many focus more on the game than the story. Explains why this got such a frosted reception...
Oh boy a Tales game character reference. Even with his growing up I still never really liked Luke as a protagonist. Damn I'm still salty over his last encounter with Asche and the cutscene that happened after that.
I definitely do acknowledge the growth that Chai has during his story, but to me I just find him to be unfunny and annoying, both before and after his redemption. Still better than Frey by a mile.
the ending of takes off is a bit rough in terms of the comics but that is why i personally like the take that it follows the more rushed story of the movie, just an interpretation of it
A little late, but I hope you guys enjoy the video and be sure to leave a comment and like as we make more and more lovely content for 2024.
I currently like 2024 it is having some shows that i'm getting except for hazbin
Ssssooo, thoughts on a specific UA-camr leaving in March?
This isn’t really related to this video, more like a potential video idea if you have any thoughts about it, but seeing helluva boss in the video and with hazbin hotel coming out soon, it made me think about how vivziepop writes her characters to swear a lot…like a lot, to the point where I think it’s less funny and more distracting honestly. I’m not even a religious person or anything, I swear all the time myself, but I think swearing excessively can usually be a sign of lazy writing and immaturity. Like, yeah they’re in hell, but I’ve seen other shows where the characters use swearing occasionally or for emphasis that are actually funny. Idk it’s something I see no one really talk about so what are your thoughts? Sorry for the ramble.
TLDR: Do you think excessive swearing in helluva boss and hasbin hotel is considered immature and lazy writing at worst?
Can you make the Right and Wrong ways to make a Rival: Kamen Rider Edition
I wouldn’t necessarily call Chai’s arc a “Redemption” because he wasn’t straight up evil, just ignorant. And a giant doofus.
Right, and he redeemed himself - Redemption isn't just for evil.
@@Mangakamen Huh. Good point.
@@Mangakamen tbh he still are he's just less what he was before
@@firdanharbima6997to be fair
Chai seems to be less stupid and more stubborb than anything
Absolutely hate how Orochimaru had zero to no consequences. I can get Sasuke, who is supposed to be more of a "Lost/tragic antihero" (who still committed SEVERAL war crimes) but Orochimaru??? How is this guy even allowed to continue his sick experiments, let alone live?? It's beyond me.
Times like these I wished Orochimaru should have stayed dead.
@samflood5631 tbh lot of characters should have stayed dead. Almost no one died through the entire Great Ninja War arc, not counting Shikamaru's dad (and other adults who had no screen time) and Neji because... just because lol. At the other hand, a lot of characters were revived left and right, a lot of them even stayed alive like Tsunade (and Kakashi a bit earlier)
What war crimes did sasuke even commit for him to deserve arrest?
@@looniemoonie5955 really don’t know what was going through the mind of the author when he made that decision. Did he just forget everything a orochimaru did???
@@anxhelovucinaj1576Killing Danzo (and raiding the five kage summit), working with the akatsuki, attempting to destroy the leaf village and above all tries to kill naruto
The Akzeriuth scene always hurts. For all of Luke's brattiness, he's still a seven-year-old, quite literally with the whole clone thing. The guy's only real father figure was Vandesdelca (yep, that's his full name), as he comments the man was the only one to praise him for his successes, scold him if he screwed up, and took him seriously. Add being the Order of Lorelei's Commandant, and you have a man the whole world respects, including most of the party. The fact he's brainwashed into doing the deed doesn't help matters, but the entire part sans Luke outright swings into Designated Hero territory when it'a revealed _several of them already knew something in regard to said tragedy;_ Guy had full knowledge of Van's plans, Tear had every reason to view Van as a villain, Jade found out key information about the plan, Anise was a mole put on by Mohs, and Natalia heard enough of Luke and Van's talk beforehand to at least have something to be suspicious about, and some of them _know_ Luke is truly seven years old, and they still give him crap which they justify with how he was spoiled and didn't try to improve early on. Also, Van knew from _the Score itself_ that Luke was fated to destroy Akzeriuth, and he uses that to kickstart a war. They don't even give the kid a good reason to actually distrust Van outside of telling him to do more critical thinking for himself and not go rushing in on the authority of others, which breaks the aesop they were trying to set up in the first place. Sure, Luke does change and become less of an ass, but he gets put through the wringer a bit too hard for it to fully work for me.
It's been year since I played Abyss, but I do remember feeling really bad for Luke. Yeah, he was kinda a piece of shit, but it's hard to blame him and, as you said, he was used by basically the only person in the world who really gave a crap about him and whom he really cared about.
Yeah, Luke's my favorite lead for the Tales series, and a standout JRPG protag in general for me, but the party he has are all comprised of hypocritical assholes. A lot of it comes down to cultural differences between the East and West.
In the East, taking responsibility is very important, regardless of how old you are, and is very collectivist, so the party left Luke because he refused to take responsibility for what happened, regardless of the fact that he was being manipulated in the 1st place. Family honor is also heavily emphasized, hence why Anise isn't really given much flack even though her actions in the long run costed the group far more than Luke did.
The West, by contrast, places more focus on individuality and the ways people can affect you, as such, while yes, Luke's actions led to the loss of many lives, but he's still just a kid who was tragically manipulated by an adult figure that he trusted, and was unaware of the damage and risks involved. Yes, it was for selfish reasons, but at the end of the day, he'd be let off because he was just a kid who wanted to be free from the toxic and confined life he'd been held in and was manipulated by the closest thing he had to a father. By contrast, Anise would be given far more flack if this was made by the West because, while her parents were held hostage, she was still perfectly aware that the people she was working for had ill intentions and never once tried to inform the party or anyone else at any point what was going on.
@@shadowwarrior3444 Ah Cultural Differences... What a shitshow it can be at it's worst.
@@shadowwarrior3444 Reminds me a thing I read on a discussion: in the West a apology is admitingyour wrongs, in the East is being a scapegoat to a group
What I love of Chai's developement is that feels earned, that' why the ending is satisfactory for me. Also in game, just seeing him during the team attacks and cheering up Peppermint, Macaron and Korsica, thanking them between sequences is dope.
Bony Clay's final moments in the anime were genuinely heartfelt, sure we know he survives in the end, but it's still sad that inspite of everything they went through, he needed to stay behind in order for the others to escape and the fact Luffy ultimately fails in saving Ace just makes it sadder.
Spoilers, but I’d say one of the worst examples is Akito Sohma from Fruits Basket, she abused her entire family, controlled, gaslit them, almost killed 1 of them, almost handicapped another one of them, and threatened to kill Tohru, then she had next to no consequences, idc what her mother was like, she doesn’t deserve forgiveness from her family
I agree to a degree. The problem is that Akito’s potential journey ends too soon and focus instead on that fact that everyone is free of the curse. Which isn’t too bad because, frankly, I didn’t want to follow Akito anymore.
I feel like this also happens in stuff like Steven Universe and Rise of the TMNT. Iffyness on the redemptions aside, they both show how it can be done wrong.
With Rise, yes, stories had to be cut and condensed. However, when it comes to the character of Baron Draxum, the responsibility of redeeming him and moving on is essentially Michelangelo getting him an apartment, a job where he literally throttles a child without consequences and doesn’t need to do anything whilst the person he made the life of a living hell, Splinter, is told to forgive Draxum to begin the healing process.
Mikey, you’re not a professional therapist. Stop.
Steven Universe has the other problem; moving too quick and timeskipping over the actual work.
In both cases, it’s very much a sense of “who cares about seeing these characters get reasons to be better and making that harsh journey?”
If you read the sequel manga you learn that she actually does have some consequences. Not sure if it's to the extent that she deserved, but she's not really forgiven by everyone.
When Rin lashes out at the others; people seem to make the assumption that all is forgiven with the others between Akito. The truth is that they're just exhausted and don't have the energy to keep hating and being angry at her. Most of them just want to hurry up and sever the ties and want nothing to do with her at that point.
In the sequel we learn that she doesn't really have any contact from most of the former zodiac members. (Tohru is basically one of her only friends.) Not only that but she's even been attacked and had to listen to a lot of hurtful things. She doesn't complain, and thinks it's deserved.
In Fruits Basket it's easy to hate her, but in the sequel I can't help but feel a little bad for her. It feels like to an extent Akito is the only one who never actually got to move on.
@@kohaiame2691 I just can’t feel bad for her. Everything that’s going on with her is honestly pretty deserved considering her behavior in the first series. Kind of glad that we got to see a character actually face consequences for their terrible behavior.
@@maxanderson3733 Yeah. I feel more bad for her son than her. As for Akito herself; I have mixed feelings.
At least Rin doesn’t forgive her, and she isn’t judged for it. I can respect that at least.
I love how EVERYONE agreed that you can pick up a bag of money AND look for your pet at the same time!
No, gotta find Homer first.
@@BBHood217 LOL!
Thank you for providing some more nuance to the Scott pilgrim situation. It’s exhausting hearing people only want to talk about literally only the first line of the entire freaking series when it comes to his story arc.
Concur’d. Plus, Bryan Lee o Malley has said lots of other people in the story are JUST as flawed as him.
Feel like Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho is a good example. Hiei at the start is just a demon criminal looking to cause as much destruction and death as possible and even when he joins Yusuke and his group he's still violent and a jerk, but gradually we see there is more to him and he gradually becomes a more likeable guy and by the end has for the most part moved past his villanious side.
Agreed
I’m surprised you didn’t include zuko. He was a villain with a very good redemption. I understand if you wanted to give other characters a spot light.
Yeh every youtuber already tell about redemption of Zuko so it could repetitive it better other spot light
Literally every video about redemption arcs talk about Zuko, he is THE example everyone mentions. It's a breath of fresh air to see a video about redemption arcs without mentioning him tbh.
He’s way too overrepresented in these videos
@@deviljho4260 Exactly
Zuko, the poster child of the redemption arc
I believe that an issue with a lot of more modern redemption is when it's treated as expected by the writers. Like in what I'd describe as "gacha game culture" where a character is meant to be marketable and reusable, it's frequent that you can have characters either treated with kid gloves in their awfulness or be way too easily "redeemed" by simply showing a tragic backstory, not changing them at all but saying "oh they're still awful, just an ally now so it's fine" or in some instances saying, "It happened off-screen." It isn't exclusive to gacha games but it's where it's most frequent since they have the general vibe of trying to make everyone a character that people open their wallets for.
I’ve noticed that too
happen to have any examples of this gacha game culture?
@@jiin6 A few examples that I've come across?
- Carol from Symphogear. Literally tries to destroy the world in the third season because she wants to prove her dad's theories correct. Gets treated as tragic because her dad is dead and because she also dies in the season. In most future marketing and in a later season (and the gacha game spinoff because of course) she's treated as being more or less an antihero.
- Aguilera from Kamen Rider Revice. She's one of the leaders of a cult dedicated to reviving a demon that is the main antagonist of the series. She gets backstabbed and then just hangs out with one of the main cast for a day and turns good and her history with the cult is more or less swept under the rug. This was confirmed to have been a rewrite and might have been due to the character being popular (ironically only as a villain).
- In Xenoblade 2 the main antagonistic group are (with a couple of final boss exceptions) recruitable in New Game Plus and the overall only real acknowledgement it gets in the writing is, "Well let bygones be bygones."
These aren't really gacha games (Xenoblade 2 has a gacha element though) but the overarching idea is just that they easily redeem the characters because of some marketing reason.
I just noticed that this trend became increasingly common as gacha games became more popular and it's almost always needing to redeem the villain or excuse their actions SPECIFICALLY so that they can be recruited into the main cast. Fate/Grand Order is a gacha game that tends to do this, there's a chapter where the primary antagonist only redemption is, throwing in, "She had a tragic past and gets betrayed" in the last chapter she appears. In the game the fandom tends to be fine with this type of writing so it happens really freaking often and it's where I first started to notice, "It's because they want to sell this character."
@@Zetact_ Honestly for Xenoblade 2, I hardly consider the Torna blades’ recruitment canon to the main story, as Akhos and Patroka both clearly died on-screen, and while Mikhail would be more likely to survive, I feel his death would’ve been more fitting for him. I think they’re mainly just recruitable for the sake of using them, not an actual redemption.
@@Zetact_ Carol is pretty explicitly still the villain for the entirety of the third season? Like, you can make a character tragic and still be the villain at the same time. She's only treated as heroic when she comes back in the fifth season because she's a) Technically just a recreation of Carol's personality created from the remnants of her memories in someone else's body b) fighting to stop the end of the world.
So I wouldn't call her character redeemed? Especially when the gacha is stuff is pretty non-canonical and fan-servicey in the first place.
Edit: Also, which antagonist are you talking about for FGO? If you're talking about Tamamo Vitch, then yeah. Tunguska Sanctuary was just badly written as a whole. I don't think Vitch even has a "tragic backstory".
If Luke gets at least a fifth of the blame for sinking an entire town into a pool of poison than tear gets another fifth as well, because the whole thing with her trying to assassinate her brother. Was that she knew that he was up to something and was a master manipulator, and she still left Luke alone with him even though she knew he had the mentality of a child.
I agree. It was annoying how the party treated Luke. Van was a master and a father figure to Luke. He had no reason to distrust him, but when Luke asked. questions, they brushed him off
@@tyroi1059 While I like the story overall, I did feel that tear and guy we’re running away from their part of the responsibility with the incident. Even without Guy having some inkling of what was happening, because Van had been talking to him in secret, he was still, the person most aware that Luke was extremely naïve and manipulatable, and as you can tell, Tear was on the opposite end with her brother. Yes he needed to take responsibility because he allowed an ability that he made aware of as being dangerous be abused but even though they had warned him that Van was a dangerous liar, they still left him alone with them. Heck, Ion was almost as active participant as a van, since he had been reading the forbidden score for the grand maestro, and knew exactly what was about to happen, and still opened the door.
@@emeraldpichu1Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been years since I last played the game), but didn't Jade know Luke was a replica? I understand where they were going; Luke needed to grow up and stop being selfish and spoiled, but I feel like Luke's development with Akzeriuth was kind of forced.
@@tyroi1059 while I don’t agree with Jade but at least he was very consistent about being a giant coward who didn’t wanna face his past until he was forced to and being quiet about Luke was just part of him, compartmentalizing his problems.
Yeah Jade knew but didn't say anything but then again Jade is also a terrible person despite his humor and it can be said her is probably the most responsible for creating a lot of issues in the game
One thing that makes Scott Pilgrim’s development in Takes Off so interesting is that despite being an objectively shitty person, he also isn’t unlikeable. His absolute unearned confidence gets him into trouble, but combined with his earnest passion, it also makes him fun to hang out with. He’s also unashamed of his shortcomings and doesn’t criticize other people for theirs, allowing anyone to honestly be themselves around him-something that the text of the story strongly emphasized as the reason why Kim and Ramona were even attracted to him in the first place.
He may be a very shallow, unhelpful person, that will cause you trouble in the long term, but he is downright *charming,* and that’s why he even has a cool gay roommate, two ex girlfriends, and a band in the first place.
It was confirmed by the Scott Pilgrim creator than the comic ending was untouched and that it’s in its on timeline. The show comes from a different timeline. So it’s not the same Scott. No lessons were unlearned.
... Great, word of god - Something that wasn't actually confirmed in the show, and had to be pointed out by the writer in some obscure manner...
GREAT WRITING.
@@Mangakamen I don't know how fair it is in this situation when it's two different media that people will watch separately. The author is just saying that these two aren't connected in terms of continuity, so I don't think it has to do with writing
@ashroy9454 ... Well, for one - It makes reference to the original story, that's literally the motivation of Future Scott, and it's blatantly explained.
And for two, yes, it doesn't have to do with writing - If you're claiming that the original story is separate, don't include elements that contradict that - Which Takes off clearly does.
@@Mangakamen I mean by that logic it could just as easily be movie Scott or video game Scott who have much less development.
Guts's redemption from Black Swordsman arc going foward is my favorite to this day
From demonic demon slayer with little care for others into a badass dad of his squad
Honestly Luke's redemption is by far my favorite character in the Tales series and I love his story. Despite looking like a teen, the guy's literally a child at heart, mind, and body. He doesn't understand things that normal people would because he's been sheltered by his family, and treated with little to no respect by the gang until he changed. But you can't exactly blame him for his actions, he didn't know what was going on because people kept info from him and had to basically learn the hard way of his consequences, he was lied to someone he deemed as a father figure (Van Grants) who actually told him what was right, what was wrong, and scolded him. Sure everyone had some kinda idea Van was bad (like Jade, Guy, etc) but never filled Luke in on it (from what I remember) so they leave him out of practically everything but still expect him to know what he did to Akzeriuth and its people.
I understand they're pissed at him but again, you can't expect someone like him to understand that someone who he trusted hurt him, ruined his and countless lives, and never tell him about it or tell him how he shouldn't rush in blindly. It's always about blaming Luke, never the other characters getting blamed besides maybe Anise and her involvement with Ion's fate.
Another good example of redemption: Miles Edgeworth.
Another bad example of redemption: Saint Germain (Castlevania anime version - literally doomed the world just so he can reunite with a woman he simped hard for, even after realizing he was being manipulated by Death).
Saint Germain in the games was such a cool timetraveler
Late to the party, but I don't think Saint Germain is a bad example of redemption. He is truly despicable at the end, serving only himself.
However, he died trying to help the heroes against Death, and possibly helped Trevor and/or Dracula and his wife in his final moments.
If he was still alive maybe some form of punishment would be in order, but he died and failed to get what he wanted, what point is there in hating him still?
Or maybe it's more apt to say that he has not redeemed himself, but that I forgive him because at the final moment he gave all he had to give. Which is maybe not surprisingly very Christian when I think about it.
@@thomaslacroix6011 One good deed does not correct a lot of wrongs. He literally sacrificed and tricked people in order to just have a chance at seeing a woman he had a crush on. The effort and cost did not equate to the potential reward. His last act didn't redeem him. The whole thing just made people pity him at how pathetic he was.
Side note: He didn't help Dracula. He helped in tormenting him and his wife by trapping them in a makeshift body, which was going to drive Dracula insane and go on another murderous rampage (Death explained this).
@@neonnwave1 it was never explained how Dracula and his wife returned to life, nor how Trevor managed to escape the castle. If I remember well, the key flash for a moment in the hands of Saint Germain at the end of the battle, suggesting something happened.
He was also manipulated by a shapeshifting being as old as humanity to believe he was pursuing alchemy's ultimate achievement, and that fact was revealed only after he was far too gone to stop, the innocents were already dead and Death would just kill him if he didn't finish it. I feel like that should count for something.
My personal view of redemption is that at any point a character can be redeemed, if they pay the price, up to everything they have to give. Often for really despicable characters, that means death, or imprisonment even after they have done everything in their power to fix the situation. In this situation, he gave up his life and his dream, so there's no higher price he could have paid.
@@thomaslacroix6011 The key thing is what brought Trevor into the Infinite Corridor and Trevor found his way out of it. As for Dracula and Lisa coming back, it's due to sabotaging the ritual by destroying the makeshift body which released their souls. That wasn't done by Saint Germain. Only saving Trevor was his doing.
Yes, Saint Germain was being manipulated but he could have listened to his conscience and said no from the start. Instead he went along with it knowing full well what horrors it would bring. And when Death revealed himself, explained the entire plan and admitted to fooling him.... Germain continued with the ritual when he could have refused in order to save humanity.
In Scott Pilgrim Takes Off, I definitely agree that the whole thing could have used one or two more episodes to round everything out properly, expanding on where Old Scott and Future Ramona went wrong and maybe adjusting the plot so that Young Ramona plays an active role in helping Young Scott get back to the past while at the same time giving the Twins some focus.
However, I don’t see Old Scott and Future Ramona having relationship issues as an explicit bad ending to the comic. The old timeline is starting from an alternate universe where Nega-Scott doesn’t exist and his character growth is more on par with the movie. Comic!Scott and Comic!Ramona still have their happy ending, as far as I’m concerned.
Boy am I glad I finished Tales of the Abyss just last month.
Another example of a jerk protagonist being redeemed that I’d like to bring up is Neku Sakuraba, from The World Ends With You. (Spoilers inbound below, obviously…)
Sure, you’re probably gonna hate the kid at the start; there’s not much to redeem him and he actively tries to KILL his partner to get out of the game (granted, he thought he would die if he didn’t do so, but he also sucks at apologizing for it later after the misunderstanding was cleared)… but by sticking around the kindness of others like Shiki and Mr. Haneko, you can see how he starts coming out of his misanthropy and tries to support them in their worst moments. You can really see him grow from one week ingame to the next, pushing aside Joshua’s own misanthropy and supporting former enemy Beat as they go from just saving each other to inadvertently saving ALL of Shibuya once they learn of the mass mind-control plot behind the scenes. It’s what makes TWEWY one of my favorite game stories to have experienced thus far…
He also gets put through the wringer, like, a *lot*. In some way, it makes his frustrations feel a little more justified when his attempts to come back to life are constantly yanked away, and I guess in some way it balances out his jerkishness.
Bon Clay really is a true bro for my guy luffy.😺
But he is a lot to handle in-person.
@@Xbalanque84I can handle him 👍
Such a bro
My absolute favorite redemption arcs are those of Thorfinn and Kratos. Really close behind are Guts and Kei Kurono
Thorfinn is probably my favorite ever it was just so earned and really made me think what it truly meant to be a man and a warrior
@@maxmasse1029 Agreed, I think Thorfinn is my favorite character ever written. His journey is extremely relatable to me and he is the exact kind of man I want to be and try to be
Yeah Thorfinn is one of my favorite characters in anime and his journey and redemption could rival or Surpass Zuko’s character arc
IMO Scott Pilgrim Takes Off feels like a multiverse introduction, it was only one of the many endings that could have happened after the comics ended, with scott getting old and becoming his own dark reflection, while in other iterations Nega-Scott is Scott's own vices and what he hates about himself. ofc its still up to interpretation, but that's just my opinion.
Off topic but I love the bit at the end about improvement. I too want to keep getting better, for me right now, It's art. You've actually been a huge inspiration to me in trying to improve my art style and writing. So, thanks!
Go for it!
For Scott Pilgrim, I don't think it really kicks the comic ending in the nuts like you said since that show, the comics, and the movie are all their own timeline stuff. And if the point was you were supposed to learn from Scott, I think the point was something you already touched on. Your personal growth doesn't just stop when you reach whatever goal, that and you have to be careful not to backslide into old bad habits. Which both Scott and Ramona did in that timeline.
That wasn't expressed in the show, in fact, it was the opposite. Future scott kinda did dash the comic ending.
@MangaKamenTheRealOne Yeah, it wasn't stated in the show itself, fair enough. I just know the creators said that, and it's also how I approach a lot of things that aren't trying to be a 1 to 1 adaptation. If only to not bemoan every change. 😆
And I don't fully see it as dashing the ending as much as it being another lesson that some people need that you have to actively keep working on yourself and not just have one big adventure and become a better person forever afterwards.
But maybe I'm reading too much into Canadian FLCL. 😂
Finally someone is talking about the greatness of Tales of The Abyss. One of my favorite games of all time.
In Star Wars there's Mary Rey Sue and in Forspoken there's Mary Frey Sue.
15:00 It’s always a trip for voices you’d hear in western toons to come out of characters from very Japanese games
Watching this video inspired me to think of ideas for this fanfic.
Basically it’d be about Kirby making new friends in the face of a multiversal calamity. I had the idea of Invader Zim being a crass jackass (Due to the reality of his mission being fake setting in) who aside from Kirby is only barely tolerated by the rest of the main cast. Perhaps due to the positive influence of Kirby, Zim would move on from being an incompetent invader turned stupid drunk to a large ham gunslinger.
I love the tales games and there stories are mostly pretty good
I'm really glad to get that copy of Tales of the Abyss for the 3DS when I saw it. I love hunting for games that I long missed out on in their initial debut.
Arthur Morgan is still the best redemption arc of all time, followed VERY closely by zuko
I've been listening to the indie synth pop duo Magdalena Bay and I feel like this line from one of their songs sums up a lot of characters.
"He was a lonely cynic
Neither hero nor villain."
A very different theme of entertainment, but when redeemable characters, especially protagonists are mentioned I like to think about Gumball from TAWOG due, not only him growing *worse* as the season progressed, but him being stated as an awful friend by the show itself, yet the antics of each episode make him incredibly iconic and at the very least he's decent to the people around him when he *wants* to be, or at the very least when the whole theme of an episode is that all the dread he causes is completely unintentional just because he is a massive goofball
MangaKamen finally digivolved. I'm so proud!
Honestly Bowser Jr's Journey should've made it on here for how much they developed the prince's character.
At the start he's a real unlikable prick who basically mistreats his adoptive siblings because he thinks that his dad only got as strong as he thinks he is because he's unreliant on his minions and does his dirty work solo, to the point where he went from travelling with an entourage of 7 Koopalings to Morton and Kamek being the last remaining elites of his dad's army still giving a crud about him (ok to be fair some of them were forcefully removed from the story while some deliberately left for personal reasons).
Then when he lost Morton and was left all alone with Kamek being the last of his family that he can still cling onto he starts to appreciate the minions more and even recognizes how much of a prick he was to his siblings and caretakers and makes amends with them, including Roy who was the first of the Koopalings to deliberately leave Jr's side due to him being a complete ass in the beginning of the game.
Honestly it's such a shame that Bowser Jr's Journey flopped as hard as it is both from a gameplay standpoint and from a sales standpoint because these games are like the heavy hitters in terms of what made the Koopa Troop in my eyes, superior than the Mushroom Kingdom as characters.
Even if that game wasn't necessarily good gameplay wise the one final bang Alphadream gave to their literal final product was to give Bowser Jr one of the most emotional and well written development arcs in Mario history, nay, one of the best character development arcs I've ever seen, and for that I respect it.
MangaKamen was waiting for Lyoid to say "Titans, Go!", while I was waiting Luke to say "It's Hero Time!"
21:18 Good thing I got the copy on 3DS. Thanks for covering Luke!
I'd say Vegeta from Sragon Ball Z is one of my favorite redemption arc stories.
He started out as a ward (lackey, henchman? I don't remember what he properly was in Frieza's Empire) to Lord Frieza, and when he was thrown away, he began changing.
He started as being cold and antagonistic towards the Z Fighters team, but as time went on, he began showing compassion for his son, and the people around him, in his own strange way.
He wasn't immediately forgiven, and through every roadblock he faced during his time with the Z Fighters, he learned humility and humanity through his successes and failures.
I still have to see the Buu Arc to finalize my statement, so I'll edit this when I'm finished with that.
It's so embarrassing that there are people who still try to act like Forespoken is some sort of underappreciated masterpiece and Frey is an amazing character
Full metal alchemist manga/brotherhood spoilers:
Greed was perfect
I mean: starts slightly dickish
Then redeems himself
And at last died for his friends
hold on a second 18:06 i dont know anything about Abyss but i recognize that voice anywhere. Thats the voice actor of Haseo from the dot Hack//GU series, a personal favorite of mine and another character that starts as an asshole that later becomes good.
I'm playing it on Switch right now!
Does he also sound like Sasuke Uchiha? Same voice actor, then?
Bon chan is that one character no one is allowed to hate
I'm all for the change in avatar, to represent yourself. I'm used to the swapping of looks by now. However, there's no need to change your tone in with the avatar. Just speak how you normally would, be yourself.
I still need to finish Tales of the Abyss... then again, I'm thinking of just starting a new game to try and get everything. Still need to play some other Tales games, too.
The games of Tales ...
Should we expect a follow-up next week talking about the much less common inverse, corruption arcs? Where a good character slides down toward a much less noble path.
You know as someone who managed to grab my librarybooks and backpack on the way out and whose sister managed to get her cat when our house started burning leaving a bag of MONEY that you could just pickup in like 2 seconds is beyond stupid.
4:16 Lusamine... *SWIPE RIGHT*
19:14. When referring Luke Fon Fabra with that chick from Forspoken…
Or Cloud Strife for that matter…
If someone is interested in a story with character focus and redemption I recommend Library of Ruina (game), it has a good story and the 2 best protagonists in my opinion, though a warning is that the difficulty may become vertical.
The biggest thing I've seen about writing a redemption is that you don't rush it, and you make it clear that the character may be flawed/bad but has human elements. The biggest one is probably Zuko, given that his redemption is his entire arc and feels like proper character growth for him. It's all about making a giant satisfying payoff, where the character slowly grows over time until they finally blossom or hit a dark enough point that they end up shaping up to face the consequences head on.
I mean, Vivian's character in TTYD follows these. You meet her in Chapter 2 as a villain but it's still obvious she's not as terrible as Beldam, and it plants the seeds for her to move on from her abusive sister.
this is the most kamen that ever manga'd
really dig the new avatar look, the red makes it pop so much more
30:00 bro really just got a wee bit more red lol.
We love ya.
Credit to Bentham, he didn't get free from Impel Down, but he _did_ succeed Ivankov as the Queen of Newkama Land (honestly, translating "Okama Way" as "Oh, Come My Way" as a play on the phrase kinda stops working after the Newkamas show up since they aren't called "Newcomers", but that's just me) as a result, that counts for something, right?
Localization is hard...
And sometimes HURTS
8:27 DAMN, you're soft!
XD
Okay, CHAI means Tea...
What other stuff has been "accidentally" been called "ITEM item" before?
To me future scott felt more like a version of scott that did never manage to fully go through nega scott.
19:47 - 22:22 This is excellent character development 😭😭
you could do multiple videos on redemptions. I'd like to see you talk about adachi (p4au) and the p5r villain
Spoilers: To me, "Scott Pilgrim: Takes Off" is more a sequel to the movies than it is an adaptation of the comics. In it, Scott actually becoming an evil ex and Ramona becomethe catalyst to that which would make sense since they weren't as well developed in the movie compared to the comics.
15:29 WHAT TORTURE...?!
15:38 ...oh, okay. Please continue
So is MangaKamen aware that his "arch enemy" MatPat is retiring?
I'm sure he is,Remember this video was made at the end of 2023,Before the retirement anouncement.
i can't help but think of the p4 cast with these voice actors in the Tails of the abyss clip
30:15 MangaKamen Burst Mode!
What’s your perspective on Redemption/Atonement of Enji Todoroki and Bakugou Katsuki from My Hero Academia
14:48 Have you played Dark Cloud 2 by any chance? It came out earlier the same year as Teen Titans and Max in that game also happens to be voiced by Scott.
Your new look is nice, and it suits you well~
It's a missed opportunity for you to not talk about the Diamonds from Steven Universe, which is a WHOLE can of worms regarding the topic of redemption.
It took me 20 years to realize that the EN voice of Lloyd is the same as Robin's from Teen Titans.
UA-cam ACTUALLY NOTIFIED ME FOR ONCE, HUZZAH!!!!
Omg I love Shadow the Hedgehog! ❤️🖤
But seriously, I do like the new design lol, looking good!
great video. since this is a new you, may i ask... less bopping when you change pngs ? thanks
An important thing is that they admit that they were wrong. Too many were only sorry about their plans not working. There is also "redemptions" where other characters put more effort than said character in that "redemption." I hate how Dracula and Isaac were handled in the Castlevania cartoon since it acts like they didn't do anything wrong.
I thought they were handled alright but from what I understand there was actually meant to be another season which is why the last one feels so awkward and rushed.
@@thomasraines1396
The writing of season 4 felt like they thought they will be given infinite episodes and they did the writing equivalent of shading random dots in the test sheet. The pacing of season 2 was both too slow (on scenes that don't actually move the plot) and too fast (on scenes that featuring the main characters). Season 3 was a filler arc for everybody but Isaac. Alucard is alone in castle then goes back to being alone in the castle. Trevor and Sypha go on vacation then come back from vacation. Hector became a slave then stayed a slave.
I'm not going to bother explaining why Dracula and Isaac didn't earn anything.
Dante Alighieri from Visceral's Dante's Inferno is certainly worth a mention. He committed brutal atrocities and cheated on Beatrice, yet faces the literal forces of Hell, including Lucifer himself, to free her soul.
14:50 Okay. Who is this and why do I recognize him?
Never mind. He’s Robin from Teen Titans.
Can you make the Right and Wrong ways to make a Rival: Kamen Rider Edition
20:30 that's a horrible life (and truth!) to wake up to!
I cheered when Luke beat up Miu. Was kind of fed up with cute mascot characters at the time XD
Did- did Kamen's whole voice change along with his sprites lol
I can't remember what the intro song's name is, and it's driving me crazy. I know I've already heard it like plenty of times, but can't figure it out, can somebody help?
I'd heavily recommend the webcomic "Unordinary". It has Protagonist corruption arcs, protagonist redemption arcs and antagonist redemption arcs.
Spoilers
The Unordinary world is a world where superpowers are the ordinary and the main character John, doesn't have powers, and he goes to a school basically catering to high powered people (the world is a very "survival of the strongest" where the strong bully the weak), where he gets by, by analyzing other people's powers and deciding if he can fight back, if he should run, or just take the hits to avoid further conflict. As the series goes on, stronger and stronger people notice him and they start digging up his past. It eventually peaks where the top dog of the school finds out John is actually very very powerful, and he gets angry that this apex power user is acting super meakly when he could dominate. As we and the top dog (Arlo) find out, John was actually kicked out of his last school for being "too violent" which even the other characters of this "the strong takes from the weak" world is shocked by. This sets John off and slowly spirals back into his hyper violent past, where if someone angers or even annoys him, he beats them half to death and leaves them where they lie. As this goes on we find out that John actually was born with no powers and was bullied because of it, and when he got his power as a late bloomer and mastered it, he took action that he felt was justified, because that's how "they" treated him. We learn that after he was kicked out of school, the authorities took him and basically tortured and brainwashed him to think his powers were bad. And that brings us back to the story where John kept going and going, where the other low levels at first looked up to him for putting high tiers down, now feared him for how brutal he was becoming, even trying to stop the high tiers from putting together an organization to help the low tiers because he thought it was too little to late. He was only brought back by his friend who went through quite a lot as well to help him. He didn't just become a good person again, he has to take time off once he cooled down to actually think and reflect on what he did and who he was. And even when he got back to school he wasn't just accepted back, everyone still feared him and he ever so barely, slowly started to gain some people trust again, and later on even started teaching a self defense class to who ever wanted to learn, he made some slip ups, and the angry vengeful god of a personallity slipped past, but he was constantly working on it.
Now, Arlo, the dick who couldn't let sleeping lions lay. He actually goes through an arc as well where he thinks that the strong rule, and the authority has everyone's best interest at heart, slowly gains a heart, doesn't ever fully admit he did anything wrong, but oh so slightly, barely changes how he acts, so we can see that he's had a change of heart, and even tries to help his friends when he realizes the authorities aren't all he thought they were.
And those are just the main character, and one of the main side characters
14:52 that bit made me choke on air 😂
is that fucking buddy holly in the one piece part
did I get weezered by a video essay
God ,i need to play hi-fi rush so bad ,i forgot how good and beautiful it looks
I love hi fi rush such a amazing game
So what are your thoughts on some of the other Tales of Games?
Tales of Vesperia
Tales of Grace F
Tales of Xillia
Tales of Zesteria
Tales of Berseria
Tales of Arise
Thanks for the list of
The games of Tales...
XD
I've heard that Tales of Arise is REALLY divisive in terms of how the story was played out and that not many people talked about it from what I've seen.
I'm obviously not MangaKamen, but I still wanna give my thought anyway.
Vesperia- Love it and one of my favorite games ever even if the final villain feels pretty weak. Everytime I go back to it, I find something new. Also my favorite gameplay due to feeling like a fighting game. Also also, it's my first Tales game
Graces F- Hate it. Hate the story. Hate the characters. Everyone says it has the best gameplay, but I don't remember it being all that amazing.
Zesteria- Meh. Story was whatever, and despite being a massive Mary Sue, Rose was somehow one of the more enjoyable characters in the game. Also was not a fan of the whole "human bad" thing. The open world was dumb and pointless and bad. Haven't played the DLC, but I did see how they turned Rose into a massive bitch for seemingly no reason and I hate it. Zesteria the X is pretty fun, though.
Berseria-One of my favorite games of all time and Velvet is my 2nd favorite character ever. Combat is fun, but I still vastly prefer Vesperia's. The world is also adittedly bland visually and unnecessarily big with too much backtracking.
Arise- bought it for $5, but haven't actually opened it yet, so no real opinion. I will say that the whole "appeal to Western audiences" approach does not leave me optimistic in the slightest.
@@s3studios597Looked into Graces after seeing this, and the general consensus I could find is that the story is weaker due to having a cliched plot with the power of friendship without any deconstructions like the series usally does, and while the characters are fun, only Asbel has a meaningful chracter arc, while people like Pascal, Malik, and Cheria are just along for the ride. The game lets you mix and match character attributes thanks to the Titles, and everyone has their own unique fighting style, but as a result, many focus more on the game than the story. Explains why this got such a frosted reception...
@@ryanaing5302 And what do you think was so divisive about the story of Tales of Arise?
I always thought that future scott was from the movie and that the comics where there own continuite.
The okaman way will never die
the new look is fun!
1:05 umineko laugh?!?!
I think one of the timestamp names is a bit wrong now. Care to guess?
Oh boy a Tales game character reference. Even with his growing up I still never really liked Luke as a protagonist. Damn I'm still salty over his last encounter with Asche and the cutscene that happened after that.
i thought you were going to talk about the diamonds redemption from steve universe, because it´s one of the worst.
So was Entraptra and Catra 😒
Who made MK an objective higher authority on such things and who gave him the Gatekeeper pass???
I definitely do acknowledge the growth that Chai has during his story, but to me I just find him to be unfunny and annoying, both before and after his redemption. Still better than Frey by a mile.
Zuko, from Avatar the last Airbender. Enough said.
14:30 Good enough, bro!
XD
5:55 HELICOPTER HELIKOPTER!
XD
What about Jin from xenoblade chronicles 2?
the ending of takes off is a bit rough in terms of the comics but that is why i personally like the take that it follows the more rushed story of the movie, just an interpretation of it
Bon clay is Alive though
When did I say he died?
Oh sorry My mistake!
My apologies@@Mangakamen