Review: Warhammer Fantasy RPG 4th Edition
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 сер 2020
- In Dungeoncraft episode #150, Professor DungeonMaster reviews Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th Edition.
Patreon: / dungeoncraftyoutube
Dungeoncraft Facebook : / 1620296361377654
Music:
"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
Bandcamp : petercrowley.bandcamp.com/
By Kevin Macleod: "Sneaky Snitch," et al. All tracks are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (creativecommons.org/licenses/...) - Ігри
‘He tragically got married’ - the best quote. Hands down.
In summary, WarHammer Fantasy:
"An RPG system specifically & masterfully designed for adding or subtracting limbs."
You’ve made my day !
@guigreen yes, but Rolemaster mainly subtracts limbs.
@@jonathanzentelin2815 ...that would be a 1st/2nd edition.
Unless you are talking about that Rolemaster, then I have no idea.
And that pretty much sums it up nicely 🤓
1 arm, ah ah ah
2 arms, ah ah ah
3 ar- wait a minute, Imma call the witch hunter
My Dwarf Trollslayer killed 5 thieves only using his Gromril Beer Stein and his forehead. So, yes this game was incredibly deadly, for anyone who stood between Gonad the Slayer and his Glorious Doom.
Is he now a spokesperson for Bugman's Brew?
Or if you're a zombie within range of a Halfling with a sling.
" Hau wech die Scheise !"
Well according to the rolls of my friends when they fought 3 zombies in my campaign. WH RPG is one of the hardest games ever to play. The hillarity of their garbage rolls. I don't think i have ever seen so much fail.
Right in the Dongliz
The Career Song:
I started in Initiate, working for the church
But I wanted to learn Silent Move and wanted to learn Search
I stumbled on a poor box, labelled “War Relief”
I took the cash, spent some XP and switched over to Thief
I joined a band of footpads, working on the streets
I soon became an Alley Cat, and my footedness got fleet
But I wanted up my Fellowship, and learn the thieving brogue
So I conned a priest, spent XP and changed across to Rogue
As a Rogue I learnt to gamble, and owned a pair of dice
But the money was too meagre, and the company not nice
So I moved up to a Charlatan, waving good bye to the rats,
Once I’d made myself a fake degree, and purchased d10 hats.
I’m a character in Warhammer, reprobate and rake
I like to raise my stats up and I don’t care what it takes
I’m a character in Warhammer, take a look at me
If it’s got a skill I want to learn, then that’s the job for me
As a charlatan I made a mint selling hair cures to the bald
But the skill list didn’t interest me and my stat advances stalled
So when the hairless lords of Altdorf put a bounty out on me
I became at once both Bodyguard, and body-guarded-ee.
As Bodyguard I learnt Dodge Blow, a very useful skill
And my Toughness and my wounds went up, so I was much harder to kill.
I craved a life of violence so got Specialist Weapon (Fist)
Then got paid for starting bar fights as a Protagonist.
In this career I found myself often smacked upon the head
And if it wasn’t for my Fate points, I’d probably be dead
For safety I donned some chain mail which I’d managed to “acquire”
And convinced a drunk and stupid knight to take me as his Squire
As a Squire I soon was master of the flail and demi-lance
And we marched off to Bretonnia, to fight in pseudo-France
It was here I met a princess with a very shapely ass
I bedded her, then wedded her and joined the Noble class.
I’m a character in Warhammer, my fortunes rise and fall
There’s no trade that I’ve mastered, but I’m jack of almost all
I’m a character in Warhammer, my stats are getting maxed
My Weapon Skill is sixty, and I’ll soon have three attacks!
As a Nobleman, I gained some skills for a better sort of life
Took Etiquette so when dining, I could use the correct knife
But there were combat skills still out there that my XP could afford
So I tried my hand at Duellist, then went on to Noble Lord
As a Noble Lord I was given my own army by the Graf
I sent them to the Chaos Wastes, cos I thought it’d be a laugh
They all came back mutated, spread their poison to my flesh
And now I am a Flagellant, taking orders from Slaanesh!
This is a classic that has done the rounds of the WFRP community many times over the years. Unfortunately, I don't recall who originally wrote it.
Epic.
Never seen this before.
Epic prose.
I like it. I like stack classes like this sometimes.
Well done. Plus 100xp for that. Better than T.S. Elliott drivel.
About the alledged lethality of the game, I think what people may have had in mind was more the lethality of the game's world. While most D&D settings include peaceful elven glens, lawfulgoody human kingdoms and adventurers leaving their village for honor and loot, Warhammer characters tend to grow up in a chaotic horrorscape and leave their town because they were conscripted into a 15 000 strong army heading for total war. The death toll is just not the same.
Definitely! It's a lovely game where your character is more likely to die of tuberculosis or killed by peasants who want his boots or just die of hunger (starting money to buy food runs out in the first couple of days for most characters, so better get creative!) than eaten by a dragon or burned by a fireball.
Man, I just love this setting, beats high fantasy every time for me. So grounded and emotional.
@@robertchmielecki2580die by tuburculosis, eh, well could be worse, you could die from lumbago
Warhammer: the game where you start off thinking you're playing D&D, but you quickly discover that you're actually playing Call of Cthulhu.
I like to think it's a healthy mix of the two!
Call of Cthulhu? More like Fear and Hunger
Traveller would like a word. Any game that your character can die during creation should be in the conversation of "deadliest RPG Ever."
I agree. Best character creation system ever!
Man dies before the game even starts
Thank you for introducing me to Warhammer fantasy. The setting is is so amazing.
It's a lot of fun. Buy the scenarios!
I've had many fun, brutal, hilarious, and satisfying sessions playing WHFRP 1st Edition as a Rat Catcher and my Small But Vicious Dog.
I still have my copy of 1st edition. I can't convince my son to play it. He plays D&D 5th and thinks it won't be as polished. Hell he thinks older D&D would suck. So I bought him a ton of 2nd edition books and supplements ( oriental adventure, dark sun, spell jammer, all the beasteries and more.) He is now having a existential crisis.
@@ronaldowens5025 just let him read the Critical Hits Chart, surely
@@ronaldowens5025 well it isnt as well optimized and polished as D&D but its still a great game. The issue is that older games usually have that patina, that weird charm, what if they are clunky and more complex when they dont have to be, they have that special something. D&D is a clean shaven, young noble knight that asks your help in making a good impression, Warhammer 1ed is an old coke addict, covered in tattoos draging you by your balls to find his crack pipe
... and that is where WFRP shines - the humour is spot on. It's more than just crunching the numbers of "the system", it's finding ways to utilise that small, but incredibly vicious dog to hilarious effect.
I liked 1st edition warhammer fantasy because nightfall was fucking scary. "We need to get to town. NOW." A black cat crosses our path... "We need to leave, right now."
We had a GM that was kind of vicious with currency because there's like 5 or 6 different coins so when we made it to town, sometimes you had to transfer over coinage at cost to do business in town, but looking back on it, it was pretty fun worrying if we got the coin to stay at an inn or tavern. and everyone was some bastard or dregs of society as rat catcher, or muleskinners or bodyguards. And magic was dangerous! We often wondered if it was good to have a mage in the party or not...
fun times....
Man I like your humour "When I'm kicking back on my yacht playing some rpgs, I'm always reading Forbes. " 😂
The book is very flippy, just for a goblin you have to look for a number of creature traits, the rules for infected wounds and diseases and the rules for fear and psychology. It is a constant back and forth.
The game started shining for me when I made my own dmscreen and a bunch of cards for monsters traits and weapons traits for my players cause I didn't have to flip through the book constantly and fights stopped taking 2000 years.
So it does require a lot of work on your part to make it less flippy but once you get there, it is a masterpiece. It's not as deadly as other rpgs but that's not the goal. The corruption and the critical wounds mechanics see your character slowly go down while fighting the good fight. The fate, fortune, resilience and determination points ensure that your character will survive to see this state.
You end up, not with a dead character but with one weathered by the campaign, his mind broken by chaos and one of his legs missing. And that's the Warhammer spirit.
I know its a little later, but what did you put on your dm screen and quick reference cards?
If we're having a competition for deadliest RPG, I nominate Rolemaster 2nd edition. We lived in fear of that critical hit table, and the phrase "are you wearing a helmet?"
I was just about to post about Rolemaster, lethal game where you spent an hour creating a character just to get killed in your first combat. How about MERP where the introductory scenario everyone was more powerful than 1st level characters?
@@fergalmoore862 Yeah I.C.E. did not play around! :D
Ah, those critical hit tables! I once gave a character a staff that rolled its criticals on a random elemental table. After a session with two particularly vivid rolls, he dubbed himself "Faroud the Cloaked, Butt Bane and Lip Lopper."
@@PolarisNC001 Good time! XD
Cyberpunk 2020. One shot kills were par for the course.
I’m becoming a huge fan of your darker style of play. I started DM’ing again after 20 years away from the game and now my campaign is darker, and full of deceit. You are a bigger inspiration than you could possibly realize. Keep rocking it out Professor!
Great video Professor! My condolences to you for your loss 30 years ago... a sad but all to familiar story.
Yep. Happens to us all.
I hate it when they marry young.
"When you think you're playing D&D, but you're actually playing fantasy Call Of Cthulhu."
Meh warhammer is far too heroic to compare.
Here is the differences between the three.
D&d: You kick the devil in the nuts.
Call of cthulhu: You go insane by the seeing the devil
Warhammer: You are going insane as you kick the devil in the nuts.
@@CloseingStraw97 - Go insane and turn into a disfigured mutant.
@@CloseingStraw97 accurate
Given WFRP mechanically was inspired by the Basic/Runequest games system (that GW distributed in the UK) that CoC was built off, and apparently the Enemy Within Campaign was (in part) inspired by the Masks of Nyarlathotep campaign... basically, yes.
Cut down in his prime like so many game masters before him
I think a lot of Warhammer's reputation for deadliness comes from the Oldenhaller Contract, the introductory scenario in the original book. It included an encounter (the rats) specifically designed to kill D&D players used to being able to stand and fight against anything.
It's also worth noting that once you got past the board game elements Third was a really good system that actually captured the feeling of the Old World really well. The system is root of the FFG Star Wars and Genesys games, which are excellent in their own right.
Oldenhaller was a GREAT scenario!
1st edition is in a bundle of holding atm which includes the famous ENEMY WITHIN campaign.
I stopped playing DnD 5e, now Im looking to dive into Warhammer.
That is the path I took.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1
You say in the video that class makes no impact. The class does impact your character, because your class gives you certain starter items.
The best description of this game I've ever heard: "Mud, Blood, and Shit"
Also I’ve found it pretty deadly - don’t you add the opposing SL to damage? That’s how I read it from pg 154 (opposed tests) and 159 (damage) in the book. So if you succeed by SL 2 and the opponent fails by 4 SL the SL for the opposed test is 6. Now your damage is SB + 4 + 6 - you can one shot someone.
That was how my group did it. You feed my Knight a couple goblins, and he can start one shotting orcs on a decent roll with the stacked Advantage.
Yep. That's how it works.
Also if i would have to explain the lore and world of this game i would say "No good deed will be left un-punished" But in a good way. Many people i met while playing RPGs didnt like the Warhammer setting, mainly because its not so power-fantasy as other, and there really isnt something as "good" in this world. Every character wants to survive, and the carrer system is made in such a way, that even simillar characters like for example acolite and "cleric" may have totally different goals and "point of view" on the same subject. Basically, if you are GMing for a group of 3 or more in WH, there will be in-party conflict of various magnitude on session 2-3 tops :P
@@gronthgronth2628 "Innocence proves nothing" That is the kind of humanity you can expect in this world.
I've been playing WFRP 4e for about 4 sessions and I really like it. The advantage mechanic makes combat deadly if you let an enemy keep accruing it. We had to rely on a lucky roll to defeat a chaos cultist on our last session, when the main fighters were down and only the halfling badger rider was still standing. Good times.
Check out my latest. ua-cam.com/video/6Fi48IcMR54/v-deo.html
Class matters if you roleplay it and your dungeonmaster uses it a well as your status in npcs interaction. On top of that, you can change classes with cost xp so it is relevant in your character's carreer mechanic-wise
Your sense of humour always gets me. Truly hilarious.
Damage is final SL of the opposed roll + SB + weapon damage rating. So it isn’t fixed damage!
Came here to clarify just that 😂 I DMed my first campaign in 4e last week and a fucking spider, large as a boot, got a +8 SL differential on it's attack the first round and bit of an artery of the nearest PC. Great way to make both the players and the DM understand that we're not in Kansas anymore 👌
I think in the combat example you would also add the SL difference between your character's roll vs. bandit to the damage.
That is true and this makes it more deadly. One good roll of the enemy and a bad role by your side can hurt you very hard. If you don't have any fortune point left the only thing you can do is pray to the dark gods....
Neat .
I recently bought a 1st edition Warhammer fantasy roleplay .
I would love a series dedicated to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay .
Started WFRP 2e back in 2007. Still my group’s main system today.
Im interested about it it you have discord I'd love to hear stories what happened to the group
"Does it deserve that reputation?" - *laughs in warp fuckery*
The thing I love the most about WFRP 4e is the Opposed Tests for combat. I've played so much D&D/Pathfinder where I'm just sitting there, twiddling my thumbs waiting for my turn. This is only broken up by the GM asking me "Does a 22 hit you?" and then me reducing my HP accordingly. I love the Opposed tests because if anyone attacks me then I become involved - I roll to Oppose their attack AND I might have the chance to Crit the attacker! Definitely my favourite version of Warhammer.
I enjoyed my Human Pit-Fighter and Elf Bounty Hunter back in a 1988! It was a fun game.
More reviews to come. I just got a huge delivery of new Warhammer stuff.
I loved this game my first tabletop RPG a friend got the book 2ed hand from a coin store we were freshmen in high school and we played every Friday at a pizza place with unlimited pizza!
Pizza AND Warhammer?! Nice!
When we were playing, with an opposed weapon skill test you could hit even if you failed your roll - as long as your opponent failed worse.
"You swung but slip on mud, your sword missing by half a foot, but your opponent misread this and tries for a dodging counterstroke, putting his head back in the path of your blade. You feel you sword lodge in his skull and are dragged down by the limp corpse stuck on your blade." I can totally see that happening
we are talking about which edition here?
@@adzi6164 4E, there it is simply an opposed test.. In 2E, you roll to hit and if you succeed, the opponent can roll to dodge or parry.
@@boyanpenev9822 yes, I know.
the rules specify that that is indeed the case...you can fumble and still hit
That riding on the yacht reading Forbes had me rollin. Lol
Excellent review, I'm a huge fan of WFRP and though I count 2nd ed as my favourite edition I am really enjoying certain new elements that 4e is bringing to the table, especially your choice of Arcane Lore conveying a bonus to all your spells, like Lore of Metal wizards having their spells deal more damage against enemies who wear metal armour, or Lore of Beasts wizards causing a fear effect whenever they cast.
I think one point to note vis-a-vis the percieved deadliness of WFRP is that your character's wounds don't really increase very much as they advance. You usually have to buy a Talent to get more, and there's always somewhere else you want to spend your XP. 4e is MUCH more lenient than previous editions, giving you your whole Toughness bonus in extra wounds per Talent buy, but in 2e each purchase got you a grand total of 1 shiny new hit point. A high-level D&D character can take hits like a superhero, a high-level WFRP character will still probably go down in 3 or fewer hits, but is much better at avoiding taking damage altogether.
Im running The Thousand thrones campaign for second edition right now. I like fourth but second ed is where its at for me.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd Edition was amazing. Especially when you throw in the Tome of Corruption (Chaos Sourcebook).
Great book. I loved Children of the Horned Rat, "Hey guys, wanna play as a party of Rat-Men?"
I ran a one shot of this game and the two guys I played it with LOVED IT. I was a little shaky on the combat but it went pretty well and the guys really liked getting a small taste of the universe and people. I love grim dark stuff so I was blown away by how easy just rolling and the dynamic tests really pushed me to be creative in when they succeeded and when they failed. Really fun and the lore also is super fun to read.
I've just realized, that the coverart of the fourth edition mirrors the coverart of the first edition. Especially the dawi and the skaven are in exactly the same pose.
Now, for my story. I was never a roleplayer, though I always had an interest in it, being a hobby writer interested in fantasy. In 2017 I played my first few games (Pathfinder) but quickly lost contact with that group and only played on and off at my university whenever there was a "open house roleplay"-day so to say.
I got with a group of friends I made at university and we started playing DSA. We've only had three sessions on that, so far (we can meet up and play only... rarely), but thanks to Corona (which I'd never thought I'd say) we've started playing over Discord. Done a lot of Vampire and Alien in that time.
Parallel to this I had been "recruited" (for lack of a better word) into competitive Total War Warhammer play at my university and got really infatuated with the Warhammer universe.
I had then made up my mind, that I really wanted to DM a game in the Warhammer world.
Me, who had never DMed and only rarely even played.
But Warhammer Fantasy was, unfortunately, dead. At least the classic Warhammer Fantasy, Age of Sigmar was still ongoing, to my knowledge.
Out of nowhere, however, the Fourth Edition was released on the website our DM frequents and I had to get it.
Read through it and... I'm fairly certain I've still not gotten it, but by now we've played three rounds and I think it's... going well.
Though I've also made the discovery, that this system wants my players to end up CRIPPLED and DEAD.
Until now only their enemies had to suffer that fate, though.
Best breakdown of the rules, especially combat, I've ever heard.
I still have my first edition book, bought in 2000. It was my first ttrpg (unless you count the Fighting Fantasy books), and to this day, even though I moved to D&D, I always preferred the fact that everything you needed was in a single book.
1st edition was amazing, hard as nails but you knew that going in. I kinda wanna go back to it and I'm sure I will at some point.
I think the idea that WFRPG is very deadly stems from the way higher level AD&D characters become big bags of hit points and in general improve very massively while even very experienced WFRPG characters never rise to that super human level.
yes, marrying a game hating wife is a fate worse than death
for the party.
To be fair she wasn't HATING. She was really cool, she just didn't play RPGs. (She's one of my exes. See "I Dumped Her for D&D"
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 that's great, & so was that vid.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I'm so sorry for your loss.
@@SuperCosmicSpaceMagnet Thank you. All these years later, it still hurts.
As a non-native English speaker at first I read it like "someone married a game while hating a wife" XD
I think a couple of significant things you missed about deadlines is that the success level differential between atack & defence rolls is added to damage, so if you roll well, say +4 levels, and they roll poorly with a similar negative value, then that 4 damage dealt by a bare hit jumps up to 12 damage.
The other thing to note is that the advantage mechanic means that fights tend to snowball and woth the bonuses adding to damage even tough characters drop in a couple of rounds if things go against them.
Cave Squiggs, I LOVE THEM! Now that would be something to find crawling around in your attic...
And the minis were AWESOME fun to paint.
We recently started using Zweihander as the new system for our main campaign. Love the ruleset as well as the warhammer-like features and the compability with my own homebrew setting.
It's a very popular game, for sure.
I played 1st Edition back in college.
Recently a friend of mine inherited a copy of 1E from his uncle, he liked that book so much he went out and bought a 4E book so he could learn DMing on it.
We've been playing for a few months now, and I enjoy it as much now as I did back in '94
Ahhh, Deathbringer! This was a great segment, took me back to my days playing first edition as well. I agree that it was never as deadly as Basic, but it had a really good feel to it. The character of the game is what sold it. Thanks for the flash back, looking forward to the next episode. The Squig took the cookie I left for the metric.
NOTHING TO SEE HERE! Just me feeding the mysterious and all-powerful UA-cam Algorithm...
I have not tried the 4th edition. But we did LOVE the older ones when characters got corrupted, mad or worse.
Also the joy to even get an audience with a clerk at the court rather than telling the king/queen off or what they should do in politics...
Thanks for an interesting review. I played 1st Edition WFRP and, while I was put off by the roll-under system; I loved the setting and the career options. I might pick up this latest version to use it as a source book for a 5e campaign; maybe plunder the careers to determine proficiencies, and use the spells along with a roll-to-cast system that includes fumbles and critical for magic.
That's what I do.
If you're looking for a dark fantasy one which uses a modified d20 system, and a WFRP inspired career-jumping with many to choose from, you might want to check out 'Shadow Of The Demon Lord'.
@@NefariousKoel Thank you
I got super hyped for Zweihänder, a grimdark setting agnostic system. But after running 6 or so sessions I agree with the most popular complaint, it is over written.
Looking forward to wrapping this campaign up in a year or so then I'll give Symbaroum a crack, it looks a lot more intuitive and has all player facing rolls.
Symbaroum and Forbidden Lands are some of the best RPGs I've ever played!
@@classmateofmine Running Symbaroum now and really enjoying it so far
@@vesperschake6241 Glad you do, mate! Have fun!
I had lots of fun with the 1st edition back in the early 90's. Long live "The Enemy WIthin" - I look forward to see what 4th edition is about, clicking the play button now.
My group has been playing this for close to a year now, and out of other systems, (years of d&d 5e and recently pathfinder e2)
we all agree this is the smoothest, most rewarding one.
The way the players don't have to meet DCs to pass checks, but rather have their own skills to roll against, which they can raise through playing,
is rewarding. The way every point you put into a skill feels, since each point can become the difference is like nothing else.
From a DM standpoint, you can switch things up, give modifiers to certain checks to reward RP or show difficulties that arise from scenarios.
Every characters feels like a fire burning brightly in a windy place, about to be snuffed out.
The "gritty" side of the game, to us is right on point, but the game IS pretty brutal and bloody on a base level.
Overall if you are fine with the concept of brutal, *mortal* combat where you are likely playing someone who is rolling around in the dirt
trying to get ontop of your enemy to shank them with a dagger since you have no formal weapon training OR access to said weapons,
this is for you.
Your sarcastic wit is strong in this one, sir! Well played. I love listening to these other editions/systems and I’m enjoying these
I would suggest homebrewing some monsters and enemies to face (and more difficult, some additional spells) simply because the list for enemies and spells is slightly underwhelming. Using the stat block for existing enemies should make it relatively simple to accomplish though. The spell list is very powerful, but limited in options. I wouldn't expand it too much though because magic is INCREDIBLY dangerous in this game. I would honestly say that WHFRP is one of (if not the) most lethal RPG's I've ever played. The monsters aren't the most awe-inspiring compared to D&D, but anything and everything will kill you unexpectedly. The most important thing you can do is think smart as a player. If it could kill you in real life, it will definitely kill you in this game. It can be unforgiving at times, and by the rules, the DM doesn't have to even try to be a dick for a TPK to happen. It's an amazingly enticing game for those who are either extreme roleplayers or those who seek a more grounded experience with their games. Yes, there's definitely fantasy, but you can't run around like a fool and expect to last long. All it takes is for the wizard in your group to make a bad roll when casting Magick to completely devastate your current plan (he could even die outright in dire situations). I would highly suggest this game, but it does take some management to make the game more convenient for players and the DM. The book can seem a little overwhelming because you have to flip back and forth. Writing down key rules, attack location results, etc. will make things much easier than needing the book every 5 minutes. Sorry for the novel of a comment, but it's a few things I feel people would need to know before buying.
Goblin with a brick. Killed a experienced character. We laughed so much that night.
We used to play back in the day, loved having to declare “strike mighty blow!” before each roll.
Deadliest?
Pah!
My mountain of dead 1st level thieves would beg to differ...that mountain piled on a foundation of dead 1st level magic users and sprinkled with a heavy confetti of other class character sheets.
Started with Moldvay Basic...took ages before anyone even needed the Cook Expert. Level 4? What's that?
In the group I DM’d the fate, fortune, resillience, resolve mess was actually not a huge deal. Players tend to rely on these strategically and I’ve never had too much confusion on them.
The xp system is a whole nother monster. I’ve had several PC’s brokenly inept or supernaturally powerful due to the most evil chaos entity: bad math.
Finally, combat between similar stat blocks continues to take forever, even with iniciative. We solved it by always adding success levels to damage. This made bad parries and good attacks decisive blows which could really turn the tables in an otherwise longer fight.
I'd like to hear more about the conversion to basic D&D. I would like to play WFRP with an OSR framework but the biggest stumbling block for me is how best to convert the magic system that is so baked in to the setting. Mostly I wonder if you kept the winds of magic and unique spell lists for each god, or if you allowed spell casters to have generalist spell lists like in D&D
DCC for the win and if you want to import spells and miscast to change it up works well
Would love for the Professor to cover Zweihander.
Great video Professor DungeonMaster! I really liket his review and comparison between the first and fourth edition since i have never played the first~
I just want to enlighten you that you have made a little mistake in the combat rules regarding opposed tests. When a character rolls to attack, you compare only sucess levels between the attacker and the defender to caculate the outcome. Ex. attacker rolls to hit with a "WS 50" against the defender with who also has "WS 50". The attacker rolls "70" which is -2 sucesslevels ( a failure if this was a normal test), but the defender rolls even worse rolling "80" which is -3 sucess levels. This means that the attacker still wins the opposed test and hits the defender since he won with a sucess level of "1".
So Two People fighting really badly with each other, but the defender in this case, even more so. If i remember correctly this also means that one can hit an attack, and fumble at the same time. Or fail to defend, and crit the opponent.
To add to this, when calculating damage, one adds the difference in sucesslevels to the damage outcome. Going back to the example above, if the attacker would have rolled a 10 instead of a 70 on his attackroll, The attacker would have a sucess lvl of +4 while the defender still rolled a 80, landing at a sucess level of -3. This adds up to a differnce of 7. Lets say the attacker has a strength bonus of 3, hitting with a damage 4 weapon and he would deal a total of 3 +4 +7 in damage, resulting in 14 damage in one blow.
I hope this was helpful~
anyhow, you've earned yourself a new follower, keep up that great content!
I know it's 4 months late but this, you're two paragraphs is what I have been searching for! Thank you! :D
@@neonsponge37 it's great that four months younger me could be of assistance! I think alot of people missunderstand how combat work in this game since I know it took me a while to figure it out. It sure makes the game alot more perilous~
So I have run WFRP 4e since it released, and I want to talk about “deadly combat”. Out of I’d say 20 sessions give or take, I have had 2 characters die in my games, and they were both very long battles. That seems to be the opposite of what most people expect out of Warhammer, quick, punishing blows, and someone’s on the floor dying. In my experience, combat is only slightly more lethal than D&D 5e, but the risks of carrying a permanent or semi-permanent injury out of combat with you are enormous.
I quickly realized that if my group rolled non-combatant classes, I had to keep them out of heavy combat, because they did not have the equipment or skills to nullify some of the risks. Even lightly armored, lightly skilled characters were emerging from combat with bumps and bruises, while their unarmored counterparts were getting broken noses, cracked ribs, losing fingers, et cetera. In fact, I had a fight go down in such a way that the two characters and their assailant wounded each other so badly that they were all unable to fight and he turned tail, therein being a non-lethal encounter.
Personally, I like it this way. Combat is about managing risk, because killing the bad guy is half the battle, still having all your digits and senses after the matter is another, and that makes people fear combat in my experience.
Witcher p&p is also nice dark fantasy rpg. About dying, in d&d (even older editions) same attack of ogre can smash 1 lvl mage or thief but same mage/thief on 10 lvl, same ogre's damage and what we have? In warhammer even very experienced character can die in one hit of ogre, troll or giant. Sorry if something wrog with my english, it's not my first language.
Love the video mate. It was really refreshing to see a guy of 'scholarly nature' talking about the lore/platform. You've got a like from me, but it was Death Bringer who secured you your sub! 👍🇬🇧
Thanks much!
If you order the physical book direct from the cubicle7games you get the PDF as well; that is a move that will get my support for a TTRPG company.
I love to hear these breakdowns. Thank you Professor. Keep up the great work.
Just want to point out that WFRP1 lasting "twenty years" paints quite the misleading picture. It was heavily supported in '86~'90, mildly supported in '91~'92, not at all supported in '93~'94, reprinted in '95~'01 (crucially missing the last part of The Enemy Within) plus a new adventure anthology in '95 and a new city sourcebook to match in '99, and three more (delayed) new books in '01~'02 (including a full-length adventure epilogue to the Doomstones campaign, following a short PDF prologue to the same in '97, neither of which has been digitally rereleased by Cubicle 7, unlike most WFRP1 and all WFRP2 material). [WFRP2 lasted '05~'09 (the last two years only seeing a couple of releases by FFG that had already been nearly finished by Black Industries), providing a fairly exhaustive snapshot of the Empire (including Paths of the Damned, its own famed campaign) and its most important neighbors (each getting a sourcebook and an undead-themed adventure) in the aftermath of the Storm of Chaos (a narrowly defeated Chaos invasion that later got retconned and replaced by the End Times, which destroyed the Known World, replacing Warhammer Fantasy Battle with Warhammer: Age of Sigmar in 2015). WFRP3 lasted '09~'13 (the last two years seeing almost only POD releases, which, despite FFG's claims of the edition being "complete", clearly showed plans left unfinished with card sets for 3 of 8+ magic orders and 3 of 10 major deities). WFRP4 has been going strong since 2018, much stronger than any previous edition, revisiting the period of WFRP1, including a director's cut of The Enemy Within, with some adaptations to fit lore changes from "Oldhammer" to "Newhammer" in 1992, exploring the Empire in more detail (and with more adventures) than ever before, and venturing outside the Old World for the first time.]
Sorry, I know this is a bit old, but I wasn't clear on how Zweihander fits in? I have that and WFRP 4e and I'm curious about strengths of each. In a related note, I'm a huge Black Company fan (Glen Cook) and wondering if you thought Warhammer or Zweihander might be good systems to use in a BC campaign. Thanks!
I converted my Warhammer campaign to GURPS, also converted my D&D (Forgotten Realms) campaign to GURPS.
That's cool >whatever works for your group.
I’m really happy that you’re putting people on different RPGs
Hi Professor DM, question for you: I recently started looking into RPGs based in Warhammer (both Fantasy/AgeofSigmar and 40k), and there seem to be a lot of editions/rule sets to choose from. WFRP 4e seems to be the choice for now, but have you looked into AoS: Soulbound RPG at all? Do you have any opinions on how it compares to WFRP 4e? Thanks for the video and your response.
No. Never played it. I personally prefer 1st Edition Warhammer, although 4th is good.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Thank you for the quick response! Does that include liking 1st Ed. over 2nd? Congratulations on the channel milestones, too!
@@arig1800 yes. I rank them 1,4,2-& we don’t talk about 3
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 So I've heard! Thanks again.
Ah WFRP, i once used a grappling hook to kill a river barge :)
But it you want deadly try L5R (especially 1st edition) damage is on multiple D10s and rolls of 10 "explode" (reroll and add, with the reroll also able to "explode") super lucky damage can technically oneshot anyone even at starting level.
I know that barge!
Great breakdown. I tried 1st edition and It could beat out AD&D 2nd (the best gamer ever)-which everyone I meet as I moved around played. I even picked up modules (used/discounted) to read. I got into Warhammer 3rd (the blasphemy) the system is wonky but we had fun.
I'd recommend Shadow of the DemonLord for a Warhammer meets DnD type game.
I have SOTDL. Very Warhammerish. I hope I didn't shit on Warhammer 3rd too hard.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Not at all. The board game aspect of it (all the cards and such) made it a gateway to get some new players into RPGs.
WFRP3 was also the first iteration of the system used in FFG's newer Star Wars rpg. Which has been rather popular after they trimmed it down from WFRP3.
I think their biggest mistake was starting off with all the expensive WFRP3 cards, tokens, etc. Just the core box costing $100 made a lot of people sour. Although I could see it being quite fun after getting used to it, and the GM figuring out how to keep it all organized and accessible during play, after some experience.
"grim" and "dark" depends on the DM/GM.
It is fairly lethal, although the system isn't without its flaws. Any RPG can be lethal depending how it is handled. For example, during non-combat encounters, if I want something to be life threatening, it will be life threatening regardless how much "life" or "defense" one has. D&D is very softcore high fantasy where characters can survive quite a bit of punishment, unless I DM. You can throw meta-gaming "I can tank that hit" thinking out the window.
One complaint is that magic, for players, is limited to human magic. Elves function very differently in lore to humans, and anyone playing an elf is basically playing as pointy eared human with a few benefits. The game already doesn't care about balance between players, but in this instance, it ignores game mechanics that elves should have.
13:14 career is great background info, but makes little sense later on as the campaign drives characters toward specific roles, which makes the entire changing career choice negligible. It's the one aspect of this game I dislike the most since it is impossible to make it function as the designer envisioned. You could base adventures off the players, but how do you plan for adventures to make sure an engineer, a wizard, a miner, and a coachman get the experience they need in their field of profession every single adventure? There is also a giant time investment in the development of a wizard compared to, say, becoming a soldier, according to lore. The system doesn't take that into consideration.
13:26 I really do love how you whip out that old D&D book. That stuff is nasty!
In Warhammer RPG, recovering from injury takes forever. Characters become scarred for life over their course of their adventures. I've not had the grace of playing the latest version of the game, but from experience 2nd edition was ridiculously problematic when pitting a player against common folk. If combat were to happen, it would at most last 2 rounds.
I think your approach to the career system is the effect of the fact that you, by instinct, see it as a run-of-the-mill "leveling" system as most RPGs have it, which it isnt. I would say, that in WHFRP player character isn't for example "a dwarf miner". Its more, a dwarf, who happens to be/works or worked as a miner. There is a difference. In detail its more about skillset's that characters have, and a way to easily cathegorise them.
Also, the system DOES takes in consideration that some careers will take waaaaay longer to achieve/finish than others. Most of the careers make it necessary for character to obtain either necessary equipment or traits, or at least some financial level. Also system (at least 2ed) states that you have to find someone who will be willing to teach you (can be another player character). If you dont play with a GM who says "yeah sure, you have it/can skip it" (which is simply a weak GMing level) it will take a lot of time to even become a soldier/squire, not to say a wizard (albeit i would say that the wizard path is way more deadly to the character than being a soldier xD).
Also, you can abandon career at any-time if you want (just be prepared for the consequences, as for example abandoning wizard training can make some very bad people interested in your character), and switch to another starting career, without losing benefits/traits of previous ones. Great example of this is a Trollslayer for dwarfs, as a PC can switch to it basically any time.
I think such system makes way more sense than for example the standard leveling system where you have situations that a fighter can learn some skill basically during a walk for groceries, out of the blue. Like "oh, i've beaten a guy who tried to mug me.... guess i know how to wear heavy armour/stun people/use kung fu now."
@@gronthgronth2628 I agree with each career being a basic skill set, but, unless the GM is willing to allow players to switch to roles they want, they are stuck for the ride of being whatever the adventures limit them too. Aren't many opportunities to become most of those professions, let alone advancing them to the next step since an adventuring path takes them away from a stable life-style.
To give a good example. You could start as a Wizard, but during a campaign you wont have the down time nor resources to go seeking further training. It takes many years for humans to progress in the arts of magic, versus a peasant who just learns naturally as they toil away with their restricted lifestyle.
Depending on which lore you choose to follow, a slayer career isn't just picked up, or dropped. Brings to mind that certain careers can't be abandoned, and without proper opportunity can't be advanced either.
Besides Wizard, there are other careers that require a lot of time and investment in one location. If the campaign doesn't involve any oceans or sea travel those careers are out. If the campaign is situated completely within the confines of a city, you should be able to figure which careers would be impossible, or incredibly difficult to take and make any progression in. I find jobs that require a specific location to be the worst to advance, like a blacksmith, innkeeper, wizard (acceptable arts)...
The same kind of logic can be applied to this game about learning skills without ever using them, or actually studying them. Bam! I'm a magic slinging wizard now because I found a magical text that I somehow can now also read.
It is an interesting system, but not without its flaws. Much like every system out there.
@@Kindlesmith70 Well if a GM is not willing to let you change career to one of the starting careers that is not "race-locked" if you have necessary skills, its time to change a GM.
Also i already pointed out that system (at least 1st and 2nd editions) states that you need to FIND someone who will teach you certain advanced skills. Otherwise you can learn some skills by trying them out by yourself. Point is, in this system, learning "survivalism" by tasting random berries will lead to quick, and quite unpleasant demise.
And i dont get the point about "some careers are useless in some adventures". Of course they are, thats why you have session 0, so everyone can understand that "yo, on this adventure you most likely will be travelling trough steppes, so i would reconsider choosing a sailor".
Granted, some skillsets may be more useful than others, but i wouldn't say that there is a single career that would be completely useless in any group. And i currently play as darfen scribe, acompanied by Troll Slayer and half-elven vagabond. You would be surprised how many doors can be opened when your character is the only one who can write and read in multiple languages ;).
Also, apart of some certain advanced skills that your character needs to be taught, or was born with you can attempt any other skill check which is nice.
Slayer for dwarf can be picked up anytime. All that your character needs is to feel dishonoured/insulted enough. Pretty easy for dwarf of any lore ;). And yes, it cant be dropped, but that's how it is. There is a reason why at the end of Slayer career path it says "next profession: GLORIOUS DEATH".
Most of the WHFRP campaigns i've played or have seen, were spanning in years, both in game and in real time. Believe me, there is plenty of time for any character to reach any career path, its not a race. Unless its a one-shot or 2-3 sessions long game.
I've seen grave-robbers turned rangers, turned acolytes and fallen priests to become warrior monks in this system over 14 years of playing it. Ive also seen characters that started as knights/aristocracts and turned to grave-digging or rat-catching, not to mention wizards that turned into witch-hunters or scribes that turned into criminal master-minds. I even played an engineering student that failed to repair a butterfly knife, but managed to do maintenance work on a gyro-copter.
And as before, if a GM can't work out the player progression in such case, or is not willing to do so, it means that
a) He/she doesnt understand how the system works.
b) That person is lazy, or a jerk.
In all cases its time to say polite "thank you for playing" to such GM and look for a new one.
@@hadeseye2297 For a Dwarf farting in his general direction that goes unavenged in a bar brawl, or making bad craftsmanship can be such honor-stain. Lore specifically says that it is the dwarf in question that chooses what is and what is not such big dishonour, to consider becoming a slayer. And such decision may come even years after the situation took place.
Mechanic wise, it is still a "starting" profession in 1 and 2 edition.
I stand my opinion, that if a GM wont allow such profession change if it is coherent with PC story and character/deeds, such GM either does a railroad, is afraid of changing something in his scenario, or is simply a bit narrow minded towards the system and fun part of the game. And i say this as someone who DMs WH2ed for more than 10 years now.
I'm looking at a Bray-Shaman (Beastman caster) entry - It has the Spellcaster trait (Beasts plus one of Chaos, Death, or Shadow)
So I assume that to cast spells this Shaman has Second Sight, can Channel, and since it has spellcasting as an 'innate ability' I assume that they have the Language (Magick) advanced skill at 30 (Int) plus some advances - maybe 20? for a Language (Magick) skill of between 40 and 60?
They would probably readily use Warpstone if it's available to them.
Can they use Petty Magic and Arcane Magic? Maybe Petty only....
They can probably Dispel spells of the Lore areas they know?
Have I missed an entire section of rules? Is 'Monster' spell casting addressed in detail and I missed it? The entry in the Bestiary chapter under the Spellcaster trait literally just says, "The creature can cast spells" - no cross reference to any other rules or section of the rules.
It appears that there is a lot left unsaid about how the GM is to handle 'monster' spell casting.....
Any help/advice or just pointing me to the proper section of the rules would be appreciated!
I used to love this back in the day. Great trip down memory lane.
We played a short game, and the advantage made combat VERY swingy. That's not a bad thing, but it was noteworthy how quickly combat could swing back and forth with a few good or bad rolls. Also archers will shaft your PCs when they stack Advantage, cause it is VERY hard to avoid getting hit.
WHFRP may not seem deadly compared to 1st level 1st edition D&D characters, but how about higher level, later edition D&D characters? In my experience, even very experienced WHFRP characters are at risk, even against relatively lowly opponents, whereas high level 5th ed. characters are incredibly tough, with low CR opponents posing virtually no risk.
Great video, glad that the algorithm brought me here after binging on Total War!
I never realised your 30yr grimdark campaign was based on the Warhammer world, but in retrospect it makes perfect sense. It always felt familiar (knowing the world from my Beastmen and Chaos Daemons army books), but somehow I never made the connection 😆
I've been curious about this game since you mentioned it in an older video, so glad my binging reached this.
(Could I just opt in for a chronological playlist of all numbered episodes? The crafts, painting and campaign ones were very pleasant to watch)
I played WHRP with 6 other friends for several years, until two years ago. We recently got nostalgic and our DM decided to try the 4th edition. I sugested each one of us started with several players on the first few sesions and keep those who survive for the rest of the campaing, borrowing that idea from one of your videos. It was fun, but the character creation part was a bit too long. Also, I totally agree it works best with smaller groups
That sounds like a crazy awesome game. I love the idea of a grimdark and brutal world where things are hard and magic isn't always available. I would love to play like that with Professor DM leading the story.
Been running Warhammer off and on since the late eighties. I have run every iteration of the game except this one. After blowing a mountain of cash on three versions, which were really only two versions, I be damned if am going to spend more money on more of the same thing AGAIN. 3rd was by and large the worse version as many will attest but I immediately saw that it was the not a problem of how the game played it was that it never really felt good to play WARHAMMER with those rules. So I bashed it a bit and made my own high fantasy world to play in and ran a two year campaign with it. And then it's spawn, GENESIS is now my GOTO game system for just about anything. I love how every single die roll has the potential to tell a story all on its own.
But I still love OG warhammer, specifically 2nd edition which is really just more of first edition. The Career Compendium is by far the best book in that OR ANY edition if you love the career system of advancement as much as I do. I ran the game with as many as 11 but 4 is really the best number of players for WHFRP.
The fourth edition does look gorgeous and I would love to have it if I were a collector, but I am not. At least I am not going to collect things anymore. I do happen to have NM copies of "Slaves to Darkness" and "Path of the Damned." WARHAMMER ROCKS!!
My take is if you have the earlier editions than you don't need this one unless you must have that art. If you dont have those books than buy this edition. It is the absolute BEST investment you can make in an RPG.
We considered WHFRP so deadly because of the exploding damage dice. But, it also had fate points just in case. But after all those Jack Chick comic strips came out, my mom wanted me to stop playing D&D. Not knowing better, she let me get WH 1E, which I still have in my shed!
Looks a lot like 2nd edition...which is good.
I bought 3rd edition back when it came out, not knowing what I was getting into, opened the box, saw all the boardgamey stuff, and immediately called the store to ask if I could bring it back for a refund.
Question? For those that have converted WHFRP with D&D what challenges did you run into resolving the disparate systems together? For example the chaos and winds of magic system doesn’t seem to map well to the schools of abjuration etc of D$D. Any thought or suggestions would be very welcome.
He forgot to mention that you add the success level difference in damage to wounds in combat, that speeds up the combat and makes it much more lethal.
Always found rolemaster a deadly rpg... but the charts! It's off shoot, Middle-earth Role Playing system fumble of "trip over imaginary deceased turtle" has stayed in my memory for decades. For many RPG's though in the past, there was a reason for the DM to be rolling behind that screen.
Cool video about possibly one of the bits of warhammer trivia I knew absolutley nothing about.
@1:48 That to me is the beauty part of Warhammer, there's no good or bad it all revolves around who you see as good and who you want to side with. I also recommend the Black Library Books too, they give really amazing stories into the Lore and even detail the beings behind the art......and plastic. my favourite is the Gotrek and Felix saga, they're 2 individuals that always find themselves getting involved in situations and ironically helping out in order for Gotrek the Dwarf slayer to seek his demise in a heroic death so the human bard Felix can fulfil his promise that he made while drunk to write into a poem of Gotreks heroic death.
In my limited experience with other frpgs, I found the deadliest game to be Rolemaster. I survived multiple sessions in (1e) Warhammer, while in RM, death was as close as one hit if you didn't have a character in the party with the right spell list to heal your very specialized type of damage. I did know a guy who played RM for years with the same character and I was amazed anyone survived it. But by far, the truly deadliest game of any genre I've played was TSR's Boot Hill, a gunfighting game in which nearly everyone involved in even one shoot-out died quickly. As for Warhammer, I love the set-up with career paths and the unusual but brilliant advancement scheme.
Also, sorry about the tragic loss of your DM; it really hits home, because it can happen to any of us at any time, no save allowed.
Hey, I've had two campgains in 4th ed, one failed and one still running after 12 sessions and I agree with every praise you stated and every criticism you gave, so at least from my perspective your intuition of the book was correct, I had the exact problem you mentioned with bleeding where I had to make it up on the spot because I couldn't quickly find it in the book. I also find myself bookmarking new pages after every session due to the flipping in between the weapon chart and hit die locations and then to talents and then to critical wounds, very annoying. Want to shout out the endeavors, great system for downtown and travelling, and the skill system and skill list for being easy to use and morph for the situation. I would highly suggest this game to be tried out by anyone who has a background in 5e and wants something different.
also small rules critique from the video: Class matters slightly because you have to pay an extra 100xp to move to a career from a different class and requires "GM permission" So I guess thats why they decided to group by class instead of keeping it entirely alphabetical, but does make it tedious to find specific careers.
@@olivermeloche2042 And starting gear is also defined by your Class...but apart from that it does matter little
Thanks, Oliver. I tried to be fair and I'm always wondering if my intuitions and observations are shared by others. Thanks for the confirmation and for watching!
I still have my original 1st edition copies of WHFRP along with all of the module books made for it. Great memories of playing in this system with my old group. Perhaps I should check out this 4th Ed version?
Which game do you prefer, Dungeon Craft? Zweihander Revised or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4e?
WFRP. Although Z. has a great, intuitive character sheet.
Hi professor, im not very familiar with warhammer rpgs or cthulhu rpgs, you may think "what does one have to do with the other?" well, i often heard comparisons between the two, claiming that warhammer is just medieval cthulhu, mainly because of Cthulhu rpgs always end up with "all investigators death/insane" is that true? or is just an extention of the deadly aesthetics of the system?
Having played both games for years I can say it’s the aesthetics. Cthulhu is WAY more deadly. Warhammer is a fantasy game with Cthulhu-ish elements (insanity points & cults mostly).
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1Hi professor, thanks for the answer :)
I loved this game. The Starter Box is a required purchase though and is often referenced in the book.
I think you misunderstood one rule of how to calculate damage that makes combat in WFRP super deadly. To the weapon damage and the strength bonus you add the sucess level of the opposed test to damage. That means that just one round of bad rolling and good rolling from your opponent could very well teke you out with one hit. I've had it happen to my players, even without a crit
Would love to know more on how you converted this into D&D, any material available for this?
On Patreon I think, awhile back.
2:44 feel the pain
Amen.