My Take on D&D Editions BX-5E (Ep. 113)
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
- Professor Dungeonmaster reflects on every edition he has played, from the Moldvay Basic Set to the current 5th Edition.
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"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
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I agree that 3.5 is the best. Thanks for the mention. One point of correction: the chance of rolling 7 or greater on 1d20 is 70%, but the chance of rolling 14 or greater on either or both of two 1d20 rolls is 57.75%. 'Advantage' is not as good as you think.
I stand corrected. My kid, BTW, is thrilled his dad got corrected by Lindybeige!
The rule says it's roughly equivalent to a +5 bonus, but in truth it's all about the dice. If you drop a natural 1, then a +5 to your attack roll is still meaningless. The excitement of flipping a nat 1 to a nat 20 however is the stuff of gaming legend.
You both are my favorite UA-camrs. 😂
@@pedroluisperez3151 I'm not worthy.
I was third edition red box and all the other set expansions and modules. It didn't have too much number crunch and was ideal for a 13 year olds' imagination.
As I get older i find myself more attracted to OSR-style game and more disenchanted with newer editions.
I feel this on a spiritual level
Complete opposite. I have no need to go aimlessly wandering around in dungeons whilst consulting tables again.
I started with 3.5 and pathfinder, and I hate how slow 3e was but I also dont like how 5e works, becmi is so cool and its sad that I was not alive when it was popular, but I dont care about adnd, it looks to complex.
@@Idreallyrathernotthanks if you would describe your OSR experience as "aimless", I guarantee your DM was not cut out for it
@@braddotson3429 agreed, if you just went RAW is it possible? Yeah, but all my games were fun adventures!
Thieves had the life expectancy of Spinal Tap drummers!!!!! Now that’s funny and true!!!!!
And tiny Stonehenge models in danger of being crushed by Dwarves!
Why did people play thieves? I can't really work it out. The thief was the guy who sucked at his job. They should have called them "Wall Climbers." About the only thing they could do.
@@craigbryant3191 Backstab obviously :)
A bit if disabling traps, a sneak and hide here and there, possibly a pickpocketing on occasion - but mostly hide in shadows followed by backstab. And the talking to the DM into accepting that this other monster had no way of noticing the thief coming from behind because it's engaged with the fighter/cleric/whatever for another backstab.
@@craigbryant3191 That's why you role-play some helpful bonuses to add on those dice roles. ;)
Anyway, Thieves are for backstabbing. And when you're not level 1 and it works it's glorious. Meanwhile finding a secret door, cracking the treasure chest open and disabling a couple traps can be quite useful.
I'm only a little sad I know this reference...
BX is my jam. I have had fun with it for over 40 years. Have fun with whatever edition you enjoy.
Same here! Best edition ever, imho. Simple to play, not bogged down with excessive rules.
The same here, Mark.
I started with 3rd edition and have played every edition since. I switched to Pathfinder during 4e and never expected to return to D&D, but 5e surprised me with how good it was. Still, over time and experience I ended up going back to earlier D&D editions and now B/X is my new favorite. I think it better suits the kind of gaming experience I want. I love roleplay, but after shows like Critical Role became popular I noticed too many players were becoming more focused on their characters and less on the game.
BX all the way!
At the risk of appearing colossally out of touch, what is BX?
Engaging video. Great to bring all this old stuff up! I first found D&D on the movie E.T.
I came into the hobby in 1986 with the Mentzer Red Box set, which I got for my 7th birthday. The only friend I had that played was an hour's drive away. There really was a culture around D&D and similar pursuits back then that you were expected to have access to in order to learn. It could be really closed to rural kids.
I was living in a tiny fishing village in Nova Scotia with no culture of gaming around. There were no hobby shops, no comic shops, and no arcades where you could tap into the culture. I couldn't get modules or Dungeon or Dragon Magazines at first. Heck, I didn't even have a public library where I could access Fantasy or Science Fiction beyond what I could scrounge at garage sales (almost all Tolkein, YA fantasy, and Space Opera). I was completely on my own to figure out how the game actually worked.
Once I muddled through the sample adventure a few times I started teaching all my friends what I thought was the game. I met a lot of resistance. I even had one book stolen and burned by a kid because it was "Satanic" and he wanted to protect the other kids from its evil influences.
To get books I had to save up for months then beg my folks to take me with them on runs into Halifax an hour away to get one book or magazine at a time in the city. By 1989 I was playing a hybrid using the Mentzer monsters, the 1e DMG, the 2e PHB and whatever monster stats I could scrounge from every other issue of Dragon.
What is interesting is that because I learned and taught the game in a near total vacuum, was that my group had an emergent playing style that was far closer to the modern (post-Hickman) story driven games or the present OSR than the pulpy Old School experience. Because we knew we were not playing a board game we focused on what separated it from one in practice; narrative and unbounded options on the gameplay loop.
I have almost never run into another guy who self taught D&D in a vacuum like that. I always wonder if they noticed a different emergent style of play to players who had access to 80's geek culture.
Wow great effort that shows what a great game d and d is.
@@Jujubes80s thanks! D&D helped me through a lot of hard times and is a cornerstone of most of my longest and most rewarding friendships. It has paid me back for my efforts a hundred times over.
You are officially hardcore. I salute thee. 🤘🏾
I have been saying for a while that 3rd and 3.5 have the best looking books inside and out. They look like tomes you could find in the world.
So true. The art was also the best. Remember how shocked I was when 4E came out and looked so bad. Then again that system sucked.
The interior art was better than previous editions but I didn’t care for the covers.
I stand by 2e's art. Super clean, full of beautiful paintings from legends like Clyde Caldwell and Larry Elmore. Maybe because I got my start in the 90s as a kid, but 2e has also been the defining LOOK of D&D to me.
This guy and Seth, make me drop what I'm doing and click.
This ^
Ditto
So say we all!
Thanks. That's very flattering. My group likes Seth more than me!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Jack the NPC makes it two against one so, it's not really a fair comparison.
As an OG red box kid from the early 80’s I really appreciate your vids.
I started with the box set too👍🙂
yup!
maaany fond memories with red box. Then the blue box and the .. white? and black? Even the gold for immortals was some amounts of fun.
The hardest part for my group was figuring out how that dumb d4 worked in that boxed set. We thought you lifted the die up and added the bottom numbers! Kids are dumb 🤣
Me too!
Now I know what I missed from my games: Harlot encounters.
Roll for harlotry! Too funny.
Let's make some tables!! XD
My first DM back in the 90s used all kinds of charts that led into other charts. Most of the time it made sense but there was the one time he rolled a giant rat + sentience + harlot, so we had basically Splinter from TMNT asking us if we wanted a good time. =/
@@wanderinghistorian ,
Well... that's where Ratmen came from... Where was your imagination?!
I dont play D&D anymore, but when I did, it was Basic D&D, and I still love that ruleset. I never got into AD&D. I havent followed all the drama with D&D lately, but the old rules seem to be making a come back because of it, which I think is great.
I will always have a special place in my heart for Erol Otus' art.
I bought Old School Essentials after seeing Questing Beast's review. As a new player that started with 5e it's really great to get a better idea of where things started.
I too started with Basic and Expert sets. We used to take the late bus home from our jr high school in the ghetto, risking our lives, just to play D&D. Then I got AD&D books. I never got any newer editions. I never felt I needed them.
2e had demons galore, especially by the time they got to Planescape. I think you passed on 2e too quickly. They changed some names like Demon and Devil became a Tenari and Baatazu but they were still the same monsters from the Fiend folio and such. Some of the renaming had to do with the satanic panic of the mid 80s and I'm sure I'm not the only kid that had to hide his books. Eventually my collection grew to a milk crate and became impossible to hide. I had to let my parents peruse the game I wasn't supposed to have prefacing that the stuff in the monster manuals were the bad guys and there was an entire class of holy kights, etc. In the end my church going parents were still pretty open minded and I was allowed to bring my hobby out of the closet. I think TSR made a wise move with the direction of 2e. I still maintain nothing was lost, they just made it la little ess easy to misinterpret as something it wasn't, satanic. Anyway, great video but that's my take on 2e. For me it was my first DnD, had the most imaginative campaign settings and represents a sort of a classical golden age of DnD to my mind.
For me, 2E took the edge off. It lacked the 'bite' and in my opinion the character of AD&D 1e. I loved the settings, but I have to agree with PDM that it just felt like the "milquetoast" version of AD&D.
@@Lemurion287 It was a mixed bag for me. Some of the most amazing art came from 2e. Some of the rules really filled in some good blanks, others washed out lore slightly. (Nothing remotely as bad as 4e and especially 5e.)
I started out with 2e in high school and stopped playing when I went to University (kinda regret it now). Just started playing again with my nephews and dug up the old classic D&D from 1994 (Escape from Zanzer's Dungeon). I'm reading up on 5e rules right now and planning on playing Sunless Citadel with my nephews. Never knew any of the other editions you mentioned. I'm staying away from Pathfinder for now until my nephews are older and more committed to the hobby.
Did not know that stuff about demons and making 2e more PG! Very interesting. I guess it makes sense since at that time there was a lot of controversy around D&D converting children into Satanists and Mazes and Monsters, bullcrap, etc.
I discovered D&D through the very same 2E book pictured in the video. Found it in a bookstore in the mall. Say what you will about censorship, but I might not have discovered it then without the steps they took to sanitize it.
Demons and Devils were certainly still there; they just renamed them Tan'nari and Beetazu respectively, and treated them almost as a race rather than a supernatural entities.
Devils and Demons existed in 2E, but got renamed (Tanari & Baatezu)
Mazes & Monsters should've ruined Tom Hanks career.
I came to the game because of the ads in Odyssey magazine, then a friend in Boy Scouts ran me through A1 at a jamboree, i was hooked on RPG's ever since. The next year i found Palladium Fantasy which i preferred since it had skills!
Skills ARE cool.
I’m nearly 50, I got my Erol Otis box in ‘81 and, yeah it was bewildering. It had everything except a coherent explanation of how to play the game. Role playing was such a new concept back then. Eventually I found someone who ran a game and never looked back.
I enjoy your videos, but this one especially, made me feel very nostalgic.
Enjoying 5e, just started Dming again after a long hiatus.
Keep up the good work.
I also started with the two box sets with the Errol Otis covers. Awesome times!
Indeed! Awesome music, too. Long live the 80s!
Excellent video. For me, B/X always. Started with it. Owned and played every edition (including a full set of 4E) since. I keep going back to B/X.
It's awesome. So are its variations like Old School Essentials and Lamentations of the Flame Princess.
That "what the heck is this" feeling when first checking out 4th edition is exactly how I felt too.
I started playing in 1981 with Moldvay’s Basic Set. It took me about a month to figure the rules out: what armor class and to-hit rolls were, and that you had to roll 3d6 for each stat, not a d20(yeah I did that too). Then I started buying the AD&D books and down the rabbit hole I went.
I played 2e until about ‘94 when the Skills&Powers book came out then I threw up my hands and walked away. There was just too much crap. I got into other rpg’s that were as far from D&D as you could get, like Cyberpunk and the White Wolf stuff.
3e was a godsend. I loved it. Right up until they cancelled it ti make 4e, which was an amazing, smoothly designed system that had zero appeal to anyone I knew. Seriously, no one wanted to play it. 4e could have easily been great if they had not gone with the powers and just used the old spell system.
I am loving 5e. There’s a little bit of power creep in there but it’s nothing I can’t handle as a DM. I have been running games since ‘81 and I can deal with almost any situation. Bring it on creative, and innovative players. One of the best things about being a DM is watching the players come up with solutions and tactics that I couldn’t have imagined. And of course the role-playing!
I am not looking forward to a 6th edition.
Started playing 1st edition AD&D in 1979, and still return to it often, even after playing so many other RPG's over the years. It doesn't really matter what version of the game, or even what RPG one is playing, all that matters is that a group of friends and like minded people are getting together, using their imaginations, rolling some dice, and having a really good time.
As a 40 something year old man, I remember playing basic D&D as a little kid. I was so young that I couldn't read so my older brother drew pictures on my character sheet. When I was a little older, we started playing 2nd edition. I still play 2nd edition today but I just continually revise the rules to fit our world. Getting rid of THACO was great, simplifying the game. I missed many of the other editions so thanks for giving me the highlights.
Was introduced to the game by my best friend in 1981. Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (First Edition). Our group doesn't play it as much as we did back then, but we still play it to this day.
Pathfinder is my groups favorite. We don't play often, and we all know the system. It's great for running our occasional one-shots.
This video is exactly why I enjoy this channel. Many D&D channels focus on a single system Prof DM has played a lot of systems and picks out the best parts from all. All ttrpg have good and bad aspects to them for a given table, as every table is different. By learning all of these aspects we can pick and choose what works and build the ultimate game of D&D. Its lead me to explore a lot of different games.
1st level wizard: "I've cast my one spell. See you at the dungeon entrance."
I started in 1986. I was 11. Elf was a class, so I was playing B/X. The next time I played, two months later, the guys had purchased A D&D, and that is the game I played periodically. We changed to the Second edition in 1989. Sure, we played other RPGs, but to this day I can calculate THAC0. We played parallel paths, Professor. I have more affection for second edition than you do, but we were playing homebrew that was influenced by Warhammer when we were not playing Warhammer (Shadows over Bogenhafen IS the best adventure ever written, even if there are still those 'I guess you are stuck, you didn't find this clue' moments.) Great video as always.
2e advanced definitely my favorite by far
Hi Professor Dungeon Master Person. Thanks for the great, provocative, and amusing content. Also, Thanks for shaking up the fans. I could comment on each video with fire and brimstone and a hearty well done!!!! I would have to claim that a success. Thanks for all the great memories of our hobby of 30+ years.
Might I suggest a visit to the "white box" game. After many, many years and almost all the same issues you've encountered, I've journeyed back to the roots and found the thing was there just waiting for us to go look. Low hit points. Not many multiple swings. Simplified character classes. Easy to add and extend because there aren't layers and layers of drek caked on from years of trial and error.
You don't have to worry about what comes next because it already did. (The White Box rules are a mess but there's a number of great "re-edits". Most simplify down to a single book. Most are free.) No Feats. No runaway power. A dude in a tunnel with steel in his hand and a hissing, snarling something in the inky black. Whisper now your last words to whatever power you hold divine. There may yet be only time for one last death rattle. Let that be to curse your foe to oblivion.
Finally, I've often said, if something is important and you want to do it right, then, one needs to wear the sport coat. Tweed is a style choice and a good one. You have honored that tradition and I praise you for it. Young people today. What can you do.
Cheers and may the next thousand episodes be equally good!!!
White box. Possible. I wonder if there's an audience for it. But I'm intrigued.
If you want a nudge in the right direction, Try Iron Falcon rules (ironfalconrpg.com/). Full disclosure, I have no connection to Mr. Gonnerman other than a download or two and a few bucks on Amazon. $9 and you get the full rules printed and in your hot hands. Everything in one book.
The White Box rules are great from a nostalgia perspective but only so so to use as rules. You had to have been there as they say.
One clarification ... this is not so much as an OSR ... more of a mostly faithful re-edit of the rules as they were ultimately presented. There are very few changes / additions with the possible exception of the monsters ... the descriptions were updated. I believe there are other versions that did the same thing. Still other versions made changes to improve / modify play (you be the judge).
As Mr. Gonnerman is not a Professor, he doesn't try to provide provenance ... let your eyes be the guide.
(From my perspective, I was trying to stay as faithful to the original rules as possible for a start. Where my mad creations might go is the stuff of the Dungeon Master ... oh right ... that's me.)
Just started watching you within the last week. It’s been amazing to learn your insights and ideas, thank you!
Welcome. Lots of content to catch up on.
I have been playing this amazing game for 33 years(34 on April 2nd as I hit 47!) and I agree, Professor, 3rd edition (3.5)was amazing. For me it’s due to the most customizable characters. As far as Basic, I have tried to get my younger players in on Moldvay editions but they are too in to having their characters....survive and be THE hero(?), haha. I have followed your channel for some time now and have crafted my own ultimate terrain, rooms, doors, walls, corners; taken tips for painting my minis (of which I am super excited to paint all my Massive Darkness minis). Also I have done away with alignment in exchange for Morality and Sanity bars, as you suggested in one of your videos, which my players, I think, enjoy. Thank you so much for all of the work you do for our most beloved hobby and also for the inspiration you have given me.
I love the ease of play fifth edition gives but I do miss the customization of 3.5. As a dm and player alike, the lethality of Basic (what we now call OSR) is something I continue to bring to the table. Please keep up the good work and thank you again for all that you do. In game as well as educating our future humans.
Started playing in the 80s, then took a 20 year break. Have played 3.5, 4th , and 5th edition, but I'm back to AD&D. Its where the game sunk into my bones and I'm most at home. Thanks for the great content, love your vids.
I started with AD&D 2E as a kid, so I have a hard time not holding it in high regard due to nostalgia. I will say that even though they wiped the demons out of that edition I was not allowed to keep the books in my house. I literally had to keep my D&D stuff at a friends house because... Satan.
yes, that was the reason the demons were out of that edition, because of some nonsense scare people had that playing D&D would turn kids into devil worshipers! Bleah!
Same here. I'm not completely sold that one engine to rule everything is the end all be all of game design. I kinda liked that different tasks had different dice resolutions. Psionics felt very different than magic and THAC0 really isn't that difficult.
Demons and devils were in 2e though they just were called by the Abyssal and Infernal words for them; tanar'ri and baatezu. Which I think is even cooler.
@@ArvelDreth Yeah I more accurately should have said they removed the terminology of "demons", I know they had the Blood War and split the demons into two factions.
Yeah. I know quite a few of my friends had that "problem". My mother, on the other hand, bought me my first D&D game: The Holmes edition. If it was not for that I probably would not have even known about it.
It was interesting to hear about your memories of the game as a kid. Thank you for sharing.
I finally beat you to something! Holmes was my first edition and I STILL have that old blue box. I also have ALL of the other editions except 3rd, 3.5, and 4th. I had lost interest in D&D after 2e.
If I had known that those older editions would command the prices they do today, I'd of bought TWO of each.
GOD... I'M OLD!
If it makes you feel any better, I think that keeping the core 1E books in any decent condition for any length of time is all impossible anyway. I don't know what those things were made out of but boy were they fragile! The things would practically self destruct from what it seemed to us kids back then.
@@ViccVegaa023 Yep. I went through TWO PHBs in less than 10 years. They did see a lot of use though...
I'm the same as you, but started with the Moldvay when my older brother got it for Christmas. I'm back with a vengeance with 5e. Having kids helped.
Commenting so you can show up on ppls feeds more. This channel rocks.
I also started with B/X, and bought it while never having heard of Dungeons and Dragons before. I recruited my first player by saying "Imagine that, instead of just reading about Conan and Elric, we could play a game where we could BE them!" I still love B/X, and I'm currently running a game in Basic Fantasy, which is identical to B/X but with ascending AC and race/class separated. I added a few "Dungeon-craftian" house rules and my players are having a blast. Thanks for the new vid Prof, love it.
Your right about the mystery back then , I came into it with no idea but Damn I wanted in...and never got out
Started in 1983 when my parents got me the Red Box after I showed an interest in JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit. What an amazing revelation that 1st tutorial adventure was for me! My love of clerics came out of that adventure. 3.0 was also an amazing transformation that I thought was revolutionary as well and the game has only gone upwards from there in my opinion. 4.0 had potential but too many people felt as you suggested that the game was following a trend rather than blazing a trail. 5.0 is simpler but that has meant for my particular group that new people are willing to try the game and that has meant a whole new circle of great friends sharing this wonderful game of ours!
Some retroclones which really impressed me lately are Swords & Six-siders and Battleaxes & Beasties. They're worth a look.
Edit: Can't believe I forgot about Vagabonds of Dyfed!
Hey Prof, thanks for the stroll down memory lane! I myself, at nine years old, received the Moldvay pink and blue boxed sets of D&D for Christmas in 1980 from my parents. Fell in love with gaming and have been sorta collecting, playing, and running games ever since. Glad I stumbled upon your channel and keep up the great work!
White Box is my favorite. Literally the game White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure.
Game.
B/X is as deep of rules as I'd ever DM for. I play 5e, but I never would care to learn it well enough to DM for.
Same. I happily DM: WBFMAG, Swords and Wizardry, B/X, BECMI, and Dungeon Crawl Classics. Anything else is just like you said.=, fun to play but not DM.
@@fernandomercado2711 I feel the OSR stuff lessens the dangers of codification, micromanagement, and powergaming, which frees up storytelling possibilities.
Started playing in 1987 at age 9. All first edition. Seeing you go through those books and charts...like revisiting those first songs we all heard upon waking at Cuivienen.
(ONE OF THE BEST CHANNELS ON UA-cam. And not for just the content-not just the "what," but the "how"! Your presentation. Clarity, enthusiasm, sense-a model should I ever start a channel one day myself. THANK YOU.)
If someone had released 4th Edition and not called it Dungeons and Dragons it would have been a smash hit. Because it had D&D on the cover too many people expected it to be a game that it just wasn't built to be.
You may be right. That's the lesson in think WOTC took away: you can change each edition, but not too much.
I personally loved 4th edition.
@@ChuckBarchuk Loved? Or still love?
@@wichhouse Still for sure. I'm not playing it much anymore but I had a great time with 4e.
@@ChuckBarchuk Just curious, why don't you play it much anymore? I only ask cause I've heard this from people before about 4e. They loved it, but don't play it anymore. Seems different than people who loved other editions and still play them (or revised versions of them).
Happy 2020! Dungeon Craft made 2019 more fun. Looking forward to more great content this coming year. Thanks PDM!
I know a DM who LOVES 5e's Exhaustion mechanic. He's house ruled that every time a PC or major NPC is brought to 0HP, they gain a level of Exhaustion so that they're going to feel it mechanically. A Revivified PC/NPC is going to be unconscious at Exhaustion 5 until after the 1st Long Rest.
Recommendation: you should do stories like you do when explaining quests but make a full segment with parts. You have good story telling skills 👍✌
I WILL be doing more storytelling. I'm afraid of being compared to Seth, who is great at it. But I have lots of stories to tell with be about my most critical player: Ralph. Look for it in a few weeks.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Just do what you enjoy doing. I enjoy the campaign stories a lot too.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I understand but you are great too
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 As someone who has been watching you and Seth since you guys were under 1k subs, really, your styles are different enough, Professor. Don't worry, we'll appreciate each one of you for the great GMs you two are... No comparisons here, only admiration.
I agree there is plenty of room for both you and Seth. At least I have time to follow both of you as well as a score of other youtubers and I still have time for bloggers as well. Just do what you want. I have nothing but praise for your videos and I’m very happy to have found them. Keep up the hard work and thank you again PDM
Started on 1st edition in high school and played through the start of 2nd. We used them pretty much interchangeably. We would play in the library during lunch, and any assemblies we could get out of, then we would have long multi-hour sessions on Saturdays. Had a lot of fun, but then the group basically graduated from high school and went their separate ways to college, and that was the end of it. I never got into another group, but always liked hearing about the evolution of the game.
I smiled at the mention of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. I got the book, but never got the chance to play it. There was some really great stuff in that system. I really liked how the to hit roll and the hit location roll were both the same percentile die roll. I feel like there was too much minutia in the system as a whole, but some of it was pure gold.
Started about 3 years ago with 5th edition. me and all of the players at my table have a lot to learn. Im currently chasing what can amount to a fast and flowing game. So your channel is full of wonderful advice and philosophies!
More dice = more fun. Exactly. Big Lindybeige fan as well.
I still own my first D&D blue box set from 1978- the cover depicts a fighter and wizard entering a chamber with a dragon perched on a pile of gold. I played AD&D for a long time, never bought the watered down, stereo instruction format, 2nd edition.
As a teenager the attraction was making maps, filling rooms with crazy monsters and traps, and then having 1 out of three characters make it!
By 3rd edition our games were sophisticated and the new rules supported that style of play. 4th edition drove me to Pathfinder for a time, but 5th edition has been the best of simple execution combined with plenty of player & GM options. Though expert advice from the Professor has been most beneficial!
I've enjoyed all of the editions, including 4th, for me making the most out of each edition has made for great campaigns for me and my players and although I've had some people question me at first, especially regarding 4th edition, they all agreed at the end of each adventure, that they had fun and if that's the end result (regardless of the edition used) or in my case sometimes a hybrid of various editions, we all win. Great list and I appreciate you taking the time to share it.
BTW, I stumbled onto your channel this morning and subscribed. As a DM since Carter was president, I rarely find a channel that contains content that interest me more than older editions of D&D or other classic TSR RPG's. Thanks! (and Basic Fantasy is my game of choice these days. Great take on the BECMI system and an even better price; FREE!)
Your experience with Moldvay was pretty much like mine, except I had nobody to ask. I'd read through most of the book when I came to the section of reasons *why* the heroes were in the dungeon in the first place. It was one of those little revelations that utterly transformed how I understood the game. My experience with 3rd was totally different: not far into my fourth or fifth session, I realized that 3e was everything I'd always said I wanted in an RPG, and the truth was I didn't like it very much.
I came into the hobby on Easter Of 82’...that magenta box was the centerpiece of my holy Easter basket. I was equally confused about how to play but I knew this was my gateway to adventure
Your experience with Moldvay's Basic is mine as well (from how I got it, the wonderful and the 'not-so-much').
I always saw Psionics as a separate magic system that, if you qualified, it made you OP.
I will point out that each edition (1st/2nd are one edition as you pointed out) are, mechanically, different games.
1/2E melded the 'white books' and Basic, allowing characters to go beyond 3rd level and expanded the 48-page book to several hundred pages - effectively giving us D&D.
3E did a LOT of course corrections, including the ones you mentioned. It had some balance issues and put the game much more into the hands of rules lawyers (note the exclusion of the 'DMs authority' from the 3E books).
4E, for all of the ugly it's gotten, did a lot better in balancing, changed the emphasis from DM v. player to cooperative story-telling, killed the skill bloat of 3.X and gave us skill tests and minions - all welcome changes. I think, though, that it was _too_ different from prior editions.
5E has performed some solid course-corrections from 4E, pushed PC development and doubled down on the cooperative story-telling. They also more clearly defined what the DM does and explicitly given the power back to behind the screen.
Most importantly, I really appreciate your retrospective and I believe you make some exceptionally good points. Thanks for the video and I look forward to the next one.
The cover art on the red box really got me, to this day it's my favorite D&d art.
Professor Dungeon Master certainly puts the Mater back into Dungeon Master every time. I started with 2nd edition so that has a special place in my memories. Still, I would have to say that the 5th edition is my favorite followed by 3rd. I have my problems with 5th edition but the best thing about it is it is very story friendly.
I started with 2E with Theater of the mind combat exclusively. Early AD&D/D&D was a game of imagination.
3E was a real turning point in D&D. It was definitely a great game, but it pretty much cemented D&D as a miniatures game due to how codified the rules were. After 3E I've never been able to run theater of the mind effectively, it just doesn't work because all the players need to know precise locations. Abilities that trigger based on allies or foes being adjacent for instance. 5E has tried to break away from that, but given it still has a lot of abilities that are based on adjacency, it basically failed there. Players are forever pretty much going to think in terms of squares when it comes to D&D. Honestly you could go back to the old editions, but it doesn't really change that player thought process.
The only games that really re-captured that old school feeling for me was Dungeon World and to a degree 13th Age, simply because they made theater of the mind possible again and get people to thinking less about who is in what square and more of the overall feel of the terrain and setting.
3E (which evolved into Pathfinder) still holds a special place if I want that type of rules heavy tactical combat.
I'm really not a big fan of 5E, it just feels like they dumbed down 3E.
It's nice to know that it's not just me. I feel like from 3e on it's all about the trinkets (minis, tiles, big sets, cards with items and spells).
Well... We're talking about the company that sells magic cards, a shitty Skinner box card game. Why would they want to sell a few books when they can sell Skinner box packs of mini's? If they encouraged the game to be theatre of the mind then they wouldn't have as much opportunity to push more of their Skinner box bullshit.
The older editions don't account for adjacency, so the 3E player would have to adapt or die (not literally... okay, maybe a little literally).
I kind of disagree. What 3e did was make it simpler for players to understand how they could use miniatures. Sure, they went on to capitalise on it by selling miniatures and making a bunch of them collectible, but really, if you could do theatre of the mind with with early AD&D, you could do it in 3/3.5e.
In 1e, movement rates, weapon ranges, and areas of effect were all given in inches (which was quite confusing to anybody not familiar with miniature war gaming), and the DM guide had diagrams showing how many opponents could engage a single figure on both square and hex grids, as well as rules on facing. None of that meant that AD&D required its players to use miniatures, and most of us just had to wing it with TotM. If a player cast fireball on the hill giant chief, I’d visualise the scene in my mind, guesstimate (likely incorrectly) how large a 40-foot sphere would be, then decide that the resulting fireball would cover the chief, his wife, and his three bodyguards, and reduce his dining table to charred ruin.
There was nothing that prevented me from doing something similar with 3e. If anything, the square grid and simpler, less esoteric rules made it easier for me to note everyone’s positions and visualise the situation on a scrap piece of graphing paper. If the rogue told me in a combat encounter that she wanted to run up to the orc threatening the mage, I would glance down on my scribbled map, then tell her that she could run through the fighting and risk getting hit by the other bad guys as she ran past them, or she could safely circle around the fighting, but wouldn’t get to the orc until her next turn. In the end, the rules just helped in managing the combat, but everything still played out in our heads.
I can’t say if that works the same for 4e though. All my friends who’ve played it say that using miniatures is an absolute essential.
@@stephenegan3612 : I think a big determining factor was the initiative system. In AD&D you'd play declare first, and then resolve, so when you decided you were casting your fireball, you didn't know when it would take place. So monsters could have moved by the time your spell went off and you had no idea what the battlefield would look like. There was really less of an opportunity when all that fine positioning mattered.
In 3E though, when your turn came up, you decided on an action and it happened instantly. So when you cast that fireball, you could plan exactly who gets hit. That really led most players to wanting to see a much more detailed view of the battlefield. Couple that with the fact that positioning was absolute (with squares instead of inches), so they knew exactly who would get hit by their fireball and all of a sudden you had these fireball trickshots become common play, where players would try to hit monsters in melee with their friends while leaving their allies untouched. You never really saw that much prior to 3E.
Now I'm not saying you absolutely couldn't run 3E with Theater of the Mind, but the grid became the preferred way of playing the game and it became harder because players wanted to know the absolute positioning to make tactical decisions. It wasn't so much that the DM couldn't run TotM, but more so that the players really wanted that extra information because every little square counted.
box set, but I think my box had different art, and first addition is dnd to me. picked it back up to get my kids into it at 5e. love to hear from those that stuck with it through the middle years. i remember hanging the greyhawk map on my wall. what a nerd!
Greyhawk. Great map.
Great video, always learn something. We might not want the same type of game, but your knowledge is inspiring.
Sacrificing your shield to completely absorb 1 hit, then it is gone. I seen a few osr games do this and I like it.
Great rule. I say you can sacrifice armor too.
I feel very nostalgic watching you go through all of the old editions. Great video!
I just received the color reprinted 1st Edition Core 3 for AD&D, hardbound for my birthday from my wife, but they will take 3-4 weeks to arrive! I can't wait. As much as I appreciate all that they have done with the 5e Paladin, I grew up playing a 1st Edition Paladin in my High School group. It will be awesome to page through that 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide again, I miss those charts!
We would love a review of old school essentials here at my table. Thanks for the amazing work Professor! Keep it up!
5:40 - This is where I started, and honestly I loved these simpler rules
Simple is better. I have a video along those lines coming out soon.
I love you style and knowledge. I am sharing your channel with ALL of my gaming friends.
I am still new to dnd. And I am going yo be running a homebrewed campagin in about 2 months so i am doing research on difffernt rules and ways to make things a little more difficult. I have only played 5e and realized very quick how after about level 5 everything becomes pretty easy. Your videos have been so much help. Thank you for your work.
I used to use those random dungeon charts in the Dungeon Master's Guide to play D&D solo.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. First off I started the same way as you, If heard of DnD as a kid, my dad talked about it but he didn't really know much about it and then I had this neighbor who had the same name, had long hair (like me) and listened to Metallica. He told me more about it.
Then in 9th grade one of my best buds was going through his grandmas attic and found the same booklet you showed. He brought it to school and showed me which I immediately asked if I could read. Two weeks later I hosted my first DnD session.
My journey through the years took me through the editions. My first run in with 2e were the computer games Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale.
Then 3e came out, I saw the monster manual at a bookstore and bought it. Sadly I had to figure out how to convert stats for an earlier format. But my best friend bought the 3e PHB and his younger brother bought the DMG. We had it all and left the old behind.
Now about this time we had also gotten into DBZ and Mobile Suit Gundam and me and a friend began talking about a Gundam DnD. A few weeks later we were running games where we piloted the giant mechs against armies in all out war.
It was sort of a mix between DnD and the war games.
Fast forward years later I have built my own game system and it ran pretty successfully. Then I saw online a new DnD book. I went looking into it and, Ill admit, my first copy of 4e was a pirated pdf copy.
That got my play group at the time to start looking for it because of how similar it was to WoW and most of them were WoW players.
Thats what we ran for many years afterwards. They collected most of the books and dropped them on my lap to read and I ran alot of things with it.
Ill have to say I enjoyed how 4e made your saves another defense like your AC. It was simpler not requiring alot of math. Plus the system in general was quite simplified to feel like a turn based multiplayer chess game.
With the simplification I made alot of modifications for various games.
I did a Final Fantasy VII game where everyone started off as a 3rd class SOLDIER. Only the martial classes were allowed and I modified the armors to include a medium weight armor that gave half your dex mod bonus to AC. Then I added in a materia system to add magic.
Later on I did another game where everyone started off without a class. I devised a system that allowed people to design their attacks/powers from level to level, which wound up screwing over over a mini boss that was supposed to run away. She died.
Then I constructed a random dungeon generator using flash cards and a dry erase board.
Eventually though I grew tired and wanted more complexity to my game system again. So I started work on my own system once again in an effort to preserve the things I liked and change what I dont. I delved into a lot of D20 books which eventually brought me to Pathfinder.
I was blown away. It was 3e... it was so similar to 4e though. It was like a 3.75e. I loved it.
Since then I have been a fan of the PF series with the free app on my phone and the core rulebook in my room.
Now lately I have some new friends online who want to play but want to run 5e. So I am learning it and building a game around that.
I have to say that thus far I feel like WotC went overboard I'm trying to compensate for the lack of rp in 4e. The background system feels pushy because without it you lack a few skills or resources that you normally should just have.
In total it almost feels 2e with a mix of 4e components. I dunno. Ill see how I feel about it once I actually get to watch it function.
Thank you once again Prof. DM for a great video.
3.5 is my favorite. It had so many options. It was simple to make new monsters and to make PC monster races. I started playing 30 years ago with 2nd and enjoyed it but 3.5 was my fav. I havent tried 4 or 5 as I gave up on dnd when they went for the obvious cash grab that was 4.
I got into D&D from the cartoon then the toys and chose your own adventure books. A friend had a red box set and I bought it from him and down the rabbit hole I went to AD&D to 5E. Great video.
Yes the earlier editions are deadly.
I still play AD&D at conventions, and DM in 3.5
Great video. I like 3.5 best. I use a modified house rule version of it and it works for me. 3rd is what really got me into D&D. The early editions, to me, seemed only fun to math geeks who enjoyed all those conversions and percentages (hate THAC0). Played 4th, it was ok. I also liked the minion approach to it but our DM had to do our character sheets for us for them to "make sense" and if you have to do that, then something has failed in design. I also liked the 3 tier and up to lvl 30 in 4th but otherwise the 'powers' were just too much. Haven't played 5th yet mostly because I'm content and comfortable with my modified 3.5 but I have adopted the Advantage system from it.
Thanks for sharing, Richard!
Thanks for sharing .
BECMI is one of my all time favorites.
Did you say 6th Edition? That boggles the mind. Never in all my years on Gods green Earth did I think I’d live so long as see a sixth edition of the game I love so dearly.
Of course I think we still have another 3-5 years before fifth edition takes its place in D&D history. Nearly all of the editions went 5-11 years with a few exceptions depending on how you see editions.
Rules and ideas for sixth edition. Wow ! As a DM who uses a mix of different rules and ideas from each of the prior editions, I would like to see a lot of the things you discuss in your videos;
EP by the session in small numbers. Such as 10 per level with an average of 1-3 per session or adventure completed. Perhaps with a bonus point for outstanding play such excellent role playing, the most important action/actions towards making the adventure successful, etc. with the number of points needed, doubling at level 5, 10, and 20
A cap on Hit Points. Perhaps not 20 but some cap or options of HP caps such as 20, 40, or 75 so you have different types of lethality for play within one rule book
Special Abilities unlocked within skill progression rather than level progression as well as being tied into the skill itself and useable by any class taking the skill or advancing high enough in the skill. This will alleviate having super hero like powers. Perhaps once you get 8 ranks in stealth skill you are able sneak faster without penalty or get to snipe opponents and return to hiding with a chance of not being seen. For that matter I’d like to see skills not tied to levels so they can progress independently of your level.
More rules for speeding up combat. I only use initiative checks when it matters. Such as do you slay the orc before he hits you or do you leave combat without your foe being able to attack you etc. everything else is simultaneous. It is unimportant imo, to know exactly who moves first or acts first every round. In fact I have some combats go by without rolling initiative at all! I find initiative slows the game down considerably and usually without much to show for it. This is especially true for large groups as I usually DM for 8-12 players at a time.
Better rules for many high level (5th level and above) spells. Perhaps more “play testing” lol. This seems tongue-in-cheek after your comments on Monte Cook or Tracy Hickman... perhaps dividing the spells (perhaps classes, magic items, and races) in such a way for low fantasy, vanilla fantasy, and High Fantasy styles of play. With the rules fixed in this way you might gain additional players who purposely shy away from D&D in preference to other systems designed for these types of play specifically. Such as Black Hack, Role Master, Low Fantasy, etc.
I think between the contrasting styles of D&D’s editions it would be difficult for yet another edition without competing with past editions. 5e did a great job meshing them all. Of course as you and I know there is plenty of room for home brew stuff and backwards compatibility. Which is the strength of 5e imo and I believe it has drawn a lot more players back to the game as well as brought completely new players in. Therefore I think it is paramount for a new edition to do this as well.
So I am cautious about a new sixth edition at least any time soon. I’m very fortunate to have discovered D&D through the now classic Moldvay Basic set just as you did. Also I’m very blessed to have the financial ability to buy into each of the new editions throughout the years. I guess that is why I home-brew and use many prior edition ideas and rules to keep those books on my shelf somewhat relevant. I know many people are not able to this. So it is even more important to make things so people’s rule books are still useful while making a profit for the company so they can stay in business.
Anyway PDM these are just my thoughts. I’m not trying to ostracize anyone who disagrees or finds one edition better than another or who have a different opinion or play style than myself. I love the fact I’m a part of huge D&D community which is so diverse and at the same time inclusive. Because the most important aspect of the game are the people and friendships forged around the playing of this game.
Of course I’d love to see a video about your thoughts on a new edition. I found this video very entertaining as well as answering the question of why great minds think alike.... it’s all about common ground. Take care and thank you for your hard work making these videos. I for one really appreciate them and enjoy your ideas and view points. Please keep’em coming.
I've had the 1st edition DMs guide since it came out, but I was a player back then. I love all of the tables that you pointed out in the back, and finally, after DMing for a few years, I think I could definitely use some of those!
Yeah, baby! What a trip down memory lane. Love it!
AD&D had both "retreat" and "withdraw" as options - the latter being the equivalent of "disengage". The advantage with retreat was you got full movement ... which might be important in some contexts (the drawbidge is aising, the boat is leaving, etc). You had choices.
A 2nd edition ad&d wizard kit was my entry into the game. Endless hours reading over the monster manual but never really able to play more than the most threadbare adventures.
Great video! I enjoyed the discussion. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Richard! Share it!
Who are the seven Philistines that disliked this video?? Great vid as always, Professor.
I liked two things about 4e: it solved the issue of fighters being useless after a wizard gets fireball and monsters were interesting to use.
The monster design in 4e was fantastic. Defining them by their roles, and then having a clear combat script they could follow really made it easy to drop them into an encounter and have it be interesting, even in a vanilla battlefield. One of my disappointments with 5e is that they didn't move the creature design forward.
Great video.
Love Moldvay.
Love the details of 1e.
Love the streamlined 3.5e.
I would say there is a difference however tween 'chart's vs. 'tables'.
I absolutely loved 4th Ed. because of the tactical complexities that it brought to mini's based combat. I also played D&D Miniatures back when that was a thing for much the same reason, and I designed and ran adventures that consisted almost exclusively of combat or skill challenges (another 4th ed. thing that was really cool if you happen to like tactical complexity) more or less red-lined one to another. Beyond the name, do I think that 4th ed. is D&D? Of course not. Its a tactics based, dice-driven wargame. About 5th, I had mixed feelings until I started watching this channel. So thanks PDM. Thanks for zone combat, thanks for plutonium juggling magic, thanks for ending initiative rolls, basically thanks for throwing the game wide open again and rekindling my spluttering interest.
I got started with 3rd edition in 2003! Man, it blew my little teenage mind.
Holy smokes! I love your channel already. So glad I finally discovered you. Now to watch all the videos. =D
I'm a blue cover man, the version with the cheap plastic dice, I purchased from a hobby store in Ithaca New York. I agree about psionics, always seemed like a different kind of magic-user. Played AD&D for a long time, moved to other systems, came back to D&D with version 5.
I came into the hobby in early 2017 with 5e and fell head-over-heels-madly-in-love with it. I tried to build a half-orc Barbarian with the Thug background so that I could get away with petty crimes. I just wanted to be an abrasive bruiser trying to find his place in the world with a passion for putting his life on the line in melee combat. However, I quickly learned how difficult it is to die in 5e and slowly learned that this edition just simply doesn't give me the style of play I wanted. 2 years later I started running my own campaign I'm an attempt to finally create the atmosphere that I had been craving, only to have it fizzle right at the campaign's end when the party were up against the big bad. They had every odd stacked against them and seemed to be staring down the barrel of an eminent demise. After three years in the hobby I thought I had finally created the session I wanted where the situation looked impossible but the players would ultimately find a way to beat the odds, only to have them collectively say "NOPE!" and abandon the campaign. Not only does 5e make it near impossible to make your players feel threatened, but the people who play 5e don't WANT to be threatened. That's why people flock to it. Since then I have discovered your channel and decided to start my own "DEATHBRINGER!" type set of rules. An amalgamation of different rule sets that I like and marry them into one PDF. Still working on it currently but I have the ball rolling with great momentum currently. I was Inspire to start that work myself because of your channel, PDM. Keep up the good work. And thank you for your contributions to the rpg community.
Thank you for the kind words. Working on the NEW iteration now. Literally. Today. Auguust release on Patreon.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I recently joined Patreon for the sole purpose of additional Dungeon Craft content. Can't wait to see what you have added. I'm super excited for the addition of drugs that affect spellcasting!
@@masoncox4140 Lol. I was just writing that section the other day. It doesn't get into the nitty gritty, but it's there.
That's funny, I just saw you load it then. Thanks I appreciate your content
I appreciate your viewership!
The more I watch you, more I agree with your Thoughts about DnD itself. I just recently made alot of changes in my weakly Dnd 5e table based on your experience and thoughts. Of course that I have reserched alot more things before that, and I'm even including things from other games like Paranoia, Sanity(Cthulhu), stress, no spell slots (Using mana instead) and the list goes on. Just thought that I just had to say thanks for opening my mind.
Cool seeing opinions of older dnd. Even tho I'm young, I grew up with the video games baldurs gate and icewindale so I loved adnd because of that.
Glad to have the younger generation on the Dungeoncraft train. I just shot a colab video with Questing Best on OS vs 5E (when I say I JUST shot it I mean yesterday) look for it within a month. Also, check out the film "Secrets of Blackmoor" for a GREAT historical documentary on the history of RPGs. Thanks for watching!
My take on editions:
I came into the hobby with Pathfinder and home ruled the system to be a lot more like 5e and Pathfinder 2 well before either system came out. I love the crunch and depth of the system and how it streamlines 3.5 into a snappier game without losing the crunch of character choice.
4e isn't an edition I've played much of. I think it's the ultimate edition for quick one shots and pre-generated board game sessions (think like the castle Ravenloft board game) but otherwise it's too much like a video game. If I delved more into it I think I'd find more elements I love such as the minions, but that's something for when I have the time for it.
5e is excellent for what it is. I love how streamlined and simple it is for players who have difficulty keeping track of a lot of character skills. For my style of character background generation I find it distasteful though. I don't feel there is enough choice and that there isn't enough customization. For context I like to use customization elements to add backstory to my character. Each non-standard element of the character gets a unit of backstory as to how that skill was developed. I find this creates great backstories. However, 5e's level of quick play, streamlined goodness makes it a superior playing experience for what I think are most groups of players. Elements like advantage and disadvantage are great additions that I absolutely hated at first. DnD Beyond is another huge benefit that 5e has. Simplifying character creation and management helps most of the players I know go into a game more confidently and have more fun.
Pathfinder 2 is something I'm just starting to get into. Much like 5e I like how streamlined it is, but I love the background, racial, and other lines of feats you get. This plays into my love of using character choices to create rich backgrounds that make sense for what the character actually does. I haven't delved deep enough into it to have a more firm opinion on it yet, but for now it's looking like it may eventually replace Pathfinder 1 for me.
I've been playing PF2 since the playtest. It took a little getting used to at first, but I love it now. I do homebrew against many of the secret rolls because I trust my players not to metagame and players enjoy rolling dice. I often forget to award hero points as well.
This is a fun video to watch. One thing you might have mentioned about the Moldvay edition was when it came out, what other kids games had a 64-page rulebook? There was some real jaw-dropping in learning this game. We managed. Thanks for the fun ride, and in 2020, may you always roll 20s...
Your videos are top-shelf content. Excellent.
Thanks, man!
This brought back some memories. What an era when d&d first came out. Have some fond memories of Ravenloft and Dragonlance. Good Times.....Cheers!!
The first time I was exposed to dnd was on a waterskiing trip in 1979. I was 9. We were skiing on a lake outside of phoenix,AZ and a kid had the J. Eric Holmes box set of basic dnd. while some kids were putting on life vests and jumping into the water to get pulled on their skis, two or three of us were rolling up characters and making dungeon maps. It all happened very quickly. I played in middle school then quit. Played 2E in college then quit. Now at 53 I have a middle school aged daughter and she and her friends want to play so I'm the DM learning 5E. I have to agree that the Moldvay boxed set was very special. I studied that book very thoroughly. I still have my ADnD books but I really wish I still had that boxed set. I'm tempted to buy one off of eBay but for $200 that money could be better spent.
Although it was slick for the time...I started with the same box set at about 9years old. An older friend, played once and didnt play until about 81 again...but I had already found hobby shops and was in love with books. I went back and even got original brown box pamphlet books.
Great walk down memory lane and listening to your insights in the editions.
I held on to 1E until recently....kick and screaming I'm fully committed to 5e now. I'm going to find the time edition of that box set. It looks great.