I was a very lapsed Mormon in early 80s with a very devout Mormon boyfriend who tried for SIX years to get me worthy enough to marry in the temple. I was a loan officer doing that time and told him I would start paying tithing only when the church started publishing its financial statements so I could see what they do with all that money. He told me I was being ridiculous. I finally terminated that 6 year relationship and 6 months later he married someone else in the temple. Complete waste of 6 years of my life.
They required tithes for full participation and the claimed that they didn’t have funds to provide custodians. So we began cleaning the meeting houses as well.
Correct! I am still waiting for a church video showing the big 15 cleaning church toilets, showing how a seer does the job, with nice music playing in the background, while they give us faith-promoting quotes as they brush the sacred latrines. I am losing hope I will ever see it. Perhaps in the millennium!
For many years, the Church used to pay only one member to clean our meetinghouse. NOW the members are happy to be all involved in cleaning and caring for the meetinghouse for Sunday worship. We love rendering this meaningful service. Obviously, you don’t care at all.
@@rebeccasirrine947no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. There are many corners to turn before reaching the destination. Think bigger picture, the prophet won’t lead you astray 3:49
I was hoodwinked and paid my tithing rather than put money towards retirement or in the bank for several years. Thank goodness I found the book Meditation for Dummies. This book taught me mantra meditation which benefited me 10x more than the Mormon church ever did. This book also taught me that my feelings are not evil and it is okay to feel feelings and not act on those feelings.
I served as a missionary in Mexico, I tought many people in small towns, I tought them that they should pay tithing because the church use that money in building chapels ,sending missionaries over the world and doing charity, many people is so poor that they live in houses with dirt floor, no AC, I feel bad about all those poor , literally poor people, tithing, thinking they're giving their money to God.
así es jorgito esos falsos profetas y apóstoles son unos estafadores venden adiós por dinero para que ellos vivan con todas las comodidades y no les importa ver alas jente pobre viviendo en casa de lámina y pisos de tierra estube en la secta mormona y descubri sus mentiras y como nos manipulan y como juegan con nuestra mente asta que nis enferman con tanta manipulación meda mucha anciedad ver aestos falsos apóstoles y profetas como digo el apóstol Pablo y después de mi vendrán falsos profetas y falsos apóstoles engañando y gastándose de ellos mismos no ves esos líderes no sudan ni se abochornan están bien demandados pero ahí tienes sus salvadores qué les pagan miles de dólares para que los defiendan estos líderes ya están callendo en su propia trampa
dios quiera que se aga justicia y regresen todo el dinero ala jente que le robaron con sus mentiras y con tanta ya esos líderes están callendo en su propia ratonera
@jorgitosalazar38 I remember growing up my mother always making meals for the missionaries, we’d take it over to them. Even though we had many children (8) and did not have a lot of money, we always fed the missionaries. We were always blessed with food. By giving we gain. The same thing can be applied to paying of tithing. Tithing is mentioned in the Bible beginning from Genesis. God does not require our tithing, it is for us. To help us in many ways. Tithing is a spiritual practice. It is more than the giving of money. If people gave it because they felt coerced then the whole meaning of tithing is lost on them. Proverbs 3:9 "Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce." Malachi chapter 3 I have often wondered why build so many temples when the Mormon church could use these funds to feed the poor and cloth the naked but then I remember that temples are holy, spiritual places. Just as a Buddist temple is holy and spiritual, a temple is holy and spiritual. Perhaps more can be done to feed the poor and hungry, cloth the naked. But isn’t the spiritual also feeding us?
@@fab4fan173we help missionaries , pay tithing and the church has also helped us many times when we were need even without us asking showing up with food helping with bills we even had a bishop help get us a heater for our house because we were without heat this is a bunch of crap tithing is god given principle
NeverMo but my husbands 1st wife is LDS. When she initially married her 2nd husband, they were getting a family started and struggling financially. They were faithful tithers on minimal income and went to the church to ask for help with food and housing they were told "no". How does the church actually help people in their daily lives with the tithing money? Building a new temple or improving church grounds isn't going to put food on someone's table.
@@SharonTaylor-g5l feel shameful and go do service to "pay" for it. Even though they give year-after-year, to get back in return, it's not a direct return for help when needed.
Tithing is used for those situations Fast Offering donations are used for local welfare needs such as these . Sometimes you may not actually have all the information that went into the decision and sometimes the Bishop just doesn't get it and makes the wrong decision
I have a friend who's Mormon husband paid for 19yo escorts. She was told by a bishop to not work and to just be a wife & mother in order to be blessed and the family flourish. 20+ years she gave up to be a house wife and her husband left her and their kids after multiple, ongoing affairs. She was kicked out of their house, went to the church to get help with food and rent so that she and her 6 children wouldn't be HOMELESS and the bishop gave them food, ONCE and threw a tiny bit of money her way to help cover one months rent. 😡 That was *IT.* That was the ONLY help she got. This "church" has hurt so many people/families. Down with them!!!!
I had a sweet friend who's husband was rather well known and liked in the region. They had three children who had special x syndrome, the two boys were severely effected. After 10 years of putting up with the multiple affairs, left her homeless and jobless. She went to her bishop for help to get her back on her feet but was turned away. They recommended that she ask a member if they could put her up temporarily. They offered her their unfinished garage, no heat or cooling. She lived there for half a year with her disabled children. May I also add She was in the relief society presidencey
The LDS church has many national and multi-national investments on which they make billions of dollars and use none of it to help the less fortunate many of which has children of which the church openly encourages the parents to have large famlies ostensibly to grow the church.
I feel like what was done to so many members was a form of extortion. I feel like they used parent's love for their children and turned it into a great money making scheme--pay your tithing or you won't be able to be with your children again in the next life. It makes me so sad to think of how this affected my ability to be the best Mom to my kids. I forfeited proper medical attention for a sometimes debilitating health issue that made me so tired I could barely function at times. Finally used tithing money to go get the help I needed and was finally diagnosed correctly (and was shamed by a stake presidency member for doing so). I cleaned houses while my kids were at school during the financial crash so we could still pay our tithing and pay the bills, and came home so tired I could barely take care of my own house and duties as a mom. I tried to get a scholarship to college (BYU) when I was a stay at home Mom to go back and finish my degree, couldn't get one, and ended up not finishing school. I didn't want to not pay my tithing and thought that I would be blessed more by paying tithing. It's easy for people who have the financial wiggle room to pay tithing and still have extra to spare to look down on people who don't and judge them for not paying their tithing when they can't meet other obligations. Looking back, I realize God WAS providing all we needed for our family. I really don't think God expected us to forfeit our health or wellbeing so that the church could hoard money. I compare it to the verses in the bible referring to "the living water". The Salvation offered to us through Jesus Christ is a living, breathing, always evolving thing that can transform our lives if we allow it in. Compare that to the way the church takes it's members money--the money they hoard is stagnating, dead, not moving, not alive.
Fascinating. I wish I could watch the proceedings with this attorney breaking down the arguments. He does a really good job explaining the issues to non-lawyers. That is an invaluable skill.
My wife and I used to go to synagogue regularly. We once asked about membership and they basically told us that they didn’t need more money, they were just very glad that we were young and present in the community.
As members we were told; Tithing moneys were to help the poor and needy all over the world, and help with maintain church building’s and programs. Missionaries were to fund their own missions for the most part! When the Seattle temple was in the works, the area members were assessed a temple building fee on top of tithing, missionary funds, offerings and fast fees. Yes we were told how much we were to pay!Tithing was not optional …. It was demanded ! And you were hounded and shamed to comply! Also, the members were told that investing in the stock market was evil …. Gambling ! A sin according to the church!
I never have high hopes of huge organizations getting whats coming, but i would love for this class action to really hurt them financially, or open them up to more lawsuits.
I doubt it will directly hurt the church's finances at all. That said, it is forcing their greedy practices into the light. And it may set some legal precedent to protect people of all faiths from misleading messaging regarding tithes. To me, the main thing this accomplishes is making church investments public knowledge. As they should be. Because they are based on tithes and tax-exempt.
@critterscute3642 unfortunately the church's investment arm has already built up so much wealth that, short of legally taking away its ability to invest, church leaders will continue to profit with or without continued tithing.
we're waiting for the lawsuit to get class action status. It probably wont go to trial but hopefully they will settle out of court and issue payments. I want mine back as do many others.
Tithing used for missions? Not for the missionaries. The families as I understand have to scrape around to collect money for their child's mission. Free labor. Shame on the wealthy church. Those missionaries should be fully supported with church money while on their missions .
I'm not surprised the mission president would be looked after. No help for the young missionaries who can't afford a decent place to live in a safe neighbourhood, or where their next decent meal will come from.
And then they still have billions left over. Plenty to help pay for the missionaries. At the very least they could pay them enough for a decent amount of food.
Go watch Nemo the Mormon's recent video on mission presidents' expenses being reimbursed such as a gardener and gifts for their children and free university schooling for their kids. It's pretty horrible.
Born and raised in SLC, baptized in 1958. I refused to pay tithing and left the church when I was only 15 years old. Could not accept their premise that they were the only true church of God.
There comes a point where we cut our losses and RUN ! Im the oldest of 10 & now only 4 left mormon. We all paid for education and the rights to speak out though!
Because you don't get to be exalted or be with your family... IF there's some chance any of this might be true. I know a lot of members on the fence who stay in out of fear. But, of course, you say it's all about your love for God and desire to follow Christ. 🙄😑
Even if they don’t believe in the “blessings” promised, there are major social implications, particularly in heavily LDS populated areas. I am a convert and it’s very easy for me to say no to church, but my husband is a generational member and it’s a lot harder for him. There are a lot of personal mental games lifelong members have to consider when choosing not to pay tithing. It can be a much deeper issue than “I don’t want to pay.” It’s hard.
Apostasy is the road to outer darkness. Paying a full gross tithe is for temple membership and guaranteeing in the afterlife (as a man) his own planet in the celestial kingdom as a god. With plural spirit wives no less. The church uses tithing as a lure. Sure, you don’t HAVE to pay but the implication is, missing out on all the “blessings” and godhood sure will suck for you! Ugh! I’m so sick of the church and its shameful shenanigans from its very beginnings to today!
@@codename495or if you want to go back to the celestial kingdom where God is. Or attend weddings of family members who are active in the church. Or avoid the shame of telling your ecclesiastical leader that you aren’t keeping your promise you made to god. I could go on. Don’t try to downplay the significance of it
So I grew up in the lds church, and I also married into a Catholic family (in Germany). There's waaay less pressure to pay tithing in the lds church than there is to donate in a Catholic Church from my experience. 1st off, in Germany they literally take tithing out of your paycheck for Catholic and Protestant religions, and if you unregister your religion with the government then the next Sunday the Priest will read out your name at church to announce you've left the Church. Mormons in Germany do not have money taken directly out of their paycheck. In the Catholic church, in addition to the paycheck deduction, they pass around a plate every Sunday. Plus, there are multiple holidays where kids go from door to door and ask for donations... at least one of those holidays the kids write something above your door when you donate, so if you don't then anyone who visits you would know you didn't donate. In the LDS church, donations are kept very private. Deciding whether you are a full tithe payer or not is up to YOU, not up to them to decide. Since the church has been around over a hundred years and ecclesiastical leaders have never been paid, there is no doubt they have a lot of money. I think it would be very reasonable to imagine they have accrued billions in interest alone, so I have no doubt they can fund projects like the City Creek Mall while still using tithes for their intended purpose. My point is that there's pretty much no way to suggest they are worse than more common Christian religion when it comes to tithes. If anything, this suggests that maybe they have the most efficient organization, and that's not a reason to punish them. I just don't see this going anywhere. The 9th Circuit typically has the worst takes of any federal circuit, so them overturning something on appeal literally means nothing.
I think that's a good idea. Percentage Dividends for what the church makes in investments. But I wonder if the members would just be taxed for it anyway
I would join the class action lawsuit. I paid over 80,000 in tithing, not including fast offerings, missionary fund, and 2 years of unpaid labor as a missionary, a self-paid mission in California from December 1995 to December 1997.
48:30 I would like to know, why in the hell is the Church competing??? Which current or prospective members (children of God, whose worth is immeasurably great) is the Church trying to outcompete?? The Church should be utterly ashamed of this ethic, and it shows why EPA needs to have a public investment policy. IMO the Church should invest only passively. No direct competition, no zero-sum trade gains, no being a freaking landlord that has to evict people. When they soil their own bathwater with these kind of actions and then impose on young men and women a duty to serve missions it just makes me sick.
Where did the church get the funds invested? Tithing. So indirectly they used tithing. Any money the church uses comes from tithing donations…. To say otherwise is simply false
Mostly true but the for-profit enterprises play a role in this as well. If you are conceding the fact that tithing funds are used indirectly then that almost makes the tithing lawsuit DOA.
I agree. Like the whole structure begins with tithing. Back to the old use of people smashing their china to make the outside of the temple so they actually used goods in lieu of money. It's all a foundation of donations.
@@cmr4622 no… Because the for profit enterprises would not even exist if it wasn't for the money from tithing that allowed the church to buy/create them. Everything the church has originally has come from donations and tithing. From Joseph Smith duping people into giving them his money to start banks etc., all the way down to today. There is no profit in the church that didn't start with a donation.
I think they claim that it was other types of donations that were used, such as land donations. I think that claim was actually proved false, however, and tithing funds have been misused. The government fined them millions after all so there is foul play.
I went on my mission because I thought it was true and thought I was giving 2 years of my time to the church to teach what they told me was true. One of those things was the law of tithing. Also a lay leadership among other things. I want my 2 years of life back. They misrepresented everything and told us as missionaries to teach things they knew were not true.
The old testament law of tithing is tied to a "paid clergy", namely the Tribe of Levi who did not own land and who worked in the temple. Asking for tithing, but then also asking them to work as bishops, elders quorum president, etc, and to clean the ward themselves, makes no sense. It should be either / or.
Dividends, compound interest, appreciation and punitive damages should all be payed out proportionately to the members - investors! Tax Free! After they pay taxes due, Ensign Peak and the Corporation of The President should be dissolved! And the church should be issued a cease-and-desist order!
The final take down of LD$ will be the federal audits. Its the biggest business in Utah & definitely for profit. They also own a big portion of stock in U2be (control in social media)!! so they may strike this comment
So you are suggesting the Corporation of Jesus Christ should get out of the religion business and quit promising their clients something they are singularly ill-equipped to deliver?
This is the only way I would be satisfied. If I had been stockpiling away my 10% for my whole life tax free, I could probably quit my job at age 35. The only way this will be fair to the members is if the church gives back our money with the interest they earned on it!
@@hollybug-76542 If you are Catholic in Germany you must register with the government so they can deduct tithing directly out of your paycheck. If you unregister you get excommunicated. In the Mormon church, they follow the principle that tithings are commanded by God, so in order to go to the place where you have to "be your best" you are expected to be following the commandments. Whatever you pay and whether it is "enough" is between you, God, and your local church leader. Plus, if you don't pay tithing in the lds church, you can still participate in every other aspect of the church except attending the Temple. It's not even a close comparison between these two organizations as to who puts more pressure on members.
As a former FBI agent, if I were the investigator in this case, I would subpoena every translation in a foreign language, of the talks in question by Hinckley. Those translations would give a picture of the message that was being received by the church as a whole. My guess is that there would not be much nuance, if any. The message of those translations taken together would provide a compelling argument about how most of the church understood the message of President Hinckley.
I think one simple change to the law would cut these kind of issues down dramatically and that's start treating churches like every other nonprofit as far as reporting where their money goes, how much money is coming in, etc.... OR the churches (of course) would have the option to NOT comply and forfeit their 501c3 status which makes them tax exempt... If they're not doing anything shady then they won't have to worry...
I want mine back. I was shamed in to paying tithing, I was told it was to help the build the church, helping to build temples and church buildings. With more to help those in need.
They must never settle! It's not about the money for these plaintiffs. Imagine the impoverished parents in Guatemala who followed the counsel to pay their tithing and let their kids go hungry.
Normally I would agree, but I think that the reason people settle is that they run out of money for legal fees. The church has endless funds, and at some point people can't pay anymore to fight.
Also the church must not lose this law suit because it could/would set a Precedent. They cannot have that or they would have to pay back the tithes of every single person who wants their tithing back. THAT would cost $$$!!!
It's funny to think that during general conference, the leaders would talk about people in other countries having to sacrifice so much to pay a full tithe si they could get to the temple. Apparently, church buildings in some of these locations are being shut down or repurposed due to lack of membership. My son's stake had to readjust boundaries due to the dwindling number of priesthood holders.
Temple Recommend Question #9: Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?" They used to ask: "Have you been honest in ALL of your dealings with your fellow man? " Is anyone asking the church leaders this question? I guess there IS a monetary consequence to hiding money from the US government.
@@MaxRoth-mc6nb . How did you NOT see this for the scam that it obviously was? The fact that it was/is a scam of HUGE proportions just intensifies the matter
@@bodytrainer1crane730 . Virtually all such entities are 'corporations' of some description - nonprofit in the case of religions, charities, and the like.
If the church was found to be deceiving members on how they were using funds in the class action lawsuit, not only would the principal be returned, but the principal plus interest would be required to make deceived members whole. And that's the problem with the church distinguishing between tithing and interest on tithing. If they misled to get the tithing, then the interest belongs to me too. Which is exactly why they began restructuring, and why they changed the tithing slips to not designate where money goes. As a side note, I think this is exactly why they published the essays and then hid them on their website. They want to make a public notice so people can't say they knowingly lied about their doctrines and start the clock on any statute of limitations. Personally this is why I've never had my records removed. I want a full accounting on record for what I paid, because one day in the not too distant future, the church will go into a receivership, and I don't want them making excuses that they were instructed to delete my information. No sir, I'm gonna collect!
@@shanejensen8484 I've tried looking up the essays multiple times on their website to send them to people. You have to pretty much know the title of the essay to get it in the search results. If you only know keywords, the church's search engine will drop the essay WAYYYY down on the list. So if you're a curious member that wants to know the church's position, you won't 'fall into' the essays which in my opinion are the church's definitive and authoritative positions on difficult topics. You'll have to dig and dig and dig. There should be a shortcut on the top ribbon of church websites to direct potentially doubting members to the church's official stance. Conference talks from the 1980s should not be the top line results when searching for answers.
I know the attorney Bruce Rivers just won a case in MN for about 50 million in damages for a burn victim and it was the highest punitive damages award ever in the state; but the company stretched it out FOR 10 YEARS! If these are all consolidated and tried in Utah, where they have home court advantage, and more than 50 percent of jurors, attorneys, civil servants, etc. are LDS, I wouldn't be surprised if this case dragged on at least 10 years. They have the funds to drag this out for as many years as the church has been in existence.
1967 I had a snow shoveling job with pres. HINCKLEYS BROTHER'S lead mine. He showed up only one day. At 14 years old, he was by far the nastiest meanest man I had met.
Hinckley in Oct '97 Conference: "We are not a financial institution. [We just OWN and RUN a few--including a for-profit insurance company, a trust company, and an investment management company I started last Monday with $7 billion of unused "reserves" we had lying around--all just pieces of the overall conglomerate.] We are the Church of Jesus Christ."
They are also major stock holders of U2be. I did get a mssg from LDS that they did not feel my Australia psychic movie was conducive to their family standards. Im in UTAH USA and constantly being reprimanded in Utah for speaking out. Speak in code or they strike ya out! judges- cops- attorneys- teachers and Auditors !!
@@valerieedwards9911 I was watching "Sensing murder" from Australia. Now people have uploaded some of those and Ive been allowed a couple takes. They are amazing !
I'm so VERY glad this lawsuit is being rolled out. So many "churches" have extorted money from people who were hurting, who were lonely, who were grieving or heartbroken & just wanted to be closer to God and a part of a community. Despicable. Not Godly at ALL. SHAME on them!!
It is even worse, for those practices are widely spread. The leaders of Witnesses of Yehova for example, abused their followers this way, and even a lot of more moderate groups are corrupted as well. For example, New Apostolic Church, and many others. This is so sad. Those corrupted people perverted the very core of Christian values and did enormous harm to all honest believers WHO trusted them. Corrupted leaders have behaved like enemies of Jesus Christ for such a long time and they still lie about their greedy sins. 😢😢😢
I think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars my parents have paid over the course of their lifetime yet they left nothing in any form of inheritance for their kids and their grandkids. Grandkids will likely be unable to ever afford a house and so it’s hard not to think of how much that money could’ve blessed their posterity’s lives if invested instead of just adding to the church’s horde.
@debbie6787 you had it to give, you gave. Individuals give all the time to orgs like red cro without digging deeper . . . Buyer beware . . . On a side note, are you aware of anyone getting made whole from a scam artist?
Exactly! I want 5 Generations of tithing back. The Church had the audacity to deny help to my disabled Auntie when she needed it most. Anytime someone in my family has reached out and actually asked for assistance it's been all but denied. It just disgusts me to know they've amassed such wealth and yet refuse charity to their own members.
@@Lovethisguy-kf1ku I've been doing that at my local foodbank for a year and its helped me a lot. Nothing to do with the LDS church either. They're useless. 🤣🤣🤣
My husband and i paid so much towards thithing.. noted it for the missionaries and after hearing stories from returning missionaries on here... Im pissed. We barely could make ends meet because of always alloting thithing first. I want it all back.
My faith broke 10 months into a mission. My Mom talked me into staying, but that is pointless. I no longer cared; everyone saw it. members, Investigators, other missionaries. It is amazing how much power there is to not caring. They cannot make you care! They would push and threaten, and I would laugh daring them to send me home. I didn't break the rules!
When you have over 100 billion dollars, you can buy any legal outcome you wish. Good luck cracking that nut. If it miraculously opens, you can be sure it will have been vacated long ago....
Also, if this case happens in Utah or Idaho, there will be a good chance of the Judge being Mormon. There's no way he will rule against his own church.
Never a Mormon, once a baptist and currently Agnostic. So disappointed in organized religion. So cult-like. Love what you do as I find it extremely interesting.
As a single mom I paid thousand a yesr, but couldnt afford to pay my sons university tuition. Sure paid to srnd other people kids to post secondary tho. 😨
@@Cocoisagordonsetter but she needed the money. Why make people tithe when they cant really afford it. Let people decide where and how much they want to donate for a good cause. Why does it have to be a church. Why not a nonprofit?
In impoverished South America members were asked to donate to help build a temple: some donated the gold from their cavity fillings and the local authority took the fillings around to show members in more affluent communities as an example of true selfless sacrifice.
Just think the church is using your tithing money to fight the lawsuits. It even uses your tithing money to pay the court fees for the abuser. That sealed the deal for me!
These comments are pure gold. I was so mad at the church but now I'm laughing 😭 great comments. Sorry to all of those who paid into this debacle, I hope you all get your money back and more. The church is a corporation and a soul trap.
I would love to know how to get onto this. In my prime earning years, I paid at least six figures. With the impending crash of fiat currencies across the Earth, I will take the local chapel as my repayment on the investment + interest.😮
You will be added to the class action if you paid as it was mentioned above after 1998-present. If you only paid before, then that would be at this point up to you to file a lawsuit. We have actually been added to a lot of random class action things we didn't even know about. You receive a letter in the mail occasionally letting you know of your rights. I can't imagine this is going to be a small class action. They (LDS) have your legal information so you'll be tracked down with the outcome. You should also follow the details too.
How do I get my own case? I am a widow and my kids are the fatherless (specifically mentioned in canon) and when we asked for help we have been told that’s not what the funds are for. I contributed almost 100k in a single year a few years prior to needing any assistance. I have documented conversations. How is it not soliciting under false pretense?
I've been a full tithe payer for my entire life and a few years back, my daughter wanted to go on a mission while I was going through some personal challenges which presented some financial strain, but never did I ask or even hint for any type of assistance. One day, my bishop called me and my wife out of the blue (separately) to let us know that the church would not be assisting in any way with any of our daughters' mission expenses. I told him we never requested assistance and didn't even need it. I found this call so offensive, first, because we never requested any type of assistance, and second, what if we needed assistance, after paying very large sums of tithing, why would my bishop go out of his way to proactively notify me that there wouldn't be any assistance. This was so utterly baffling and offensive. Perhaps this only happens in Heber City, UT and perhaps it was only the judgement of our ex-bishop Hicken, but I suspect that this is a systemic problem with poor leadership, and a greedy church HQ.
The future investment income potential of the tithing dollars I handed over in faith was a HUGE part of my tithing consecration (and everyone else's). So for the Church to refer to the "income on invested reserves" as if it's a totally separate thing and apparently not considered by them to be part of what I gave up for tithing--feels a bit dismissive and disrespectful of the full meaning of the consecration.
So if they didn't invest it at all and just hid it in the temple basement, you would have been fine with it? I think the parable of the talents might be used in the court case If consecration includes the future potential of what ever you donate, then you should have accounted for that when you paid it and just said you were a full tithe payer. Or if you were smart, you should have donated appreciated stock at least a year old then that would have accounted for some of the future income and you wouldn't have had to pay capital gains.
Definitely not okay with me for them to bury it. And I never was expecting them to invest it and show a return. But the giving up of future investment income potential was a real impact on my end as a faithful tithepayer--all potential for that future investment income for myself was given away to the Church. So if the Church does invest it and realizes investment gains/returns, the least they can do is acknowledge that they are only getting those investment gains/returns because members transferred those gains from their own future selves to the Church--as a meaningful part of their tithing consecration. And for the Church to not acknowledge this--and even refer to it as something separate, and definitively state and argue that it is specifically NOT part of the member's tithing consecration dismisses and disrespects the full meaning and impact of the faithful consecration for the faithful tithepaying member.
@@cmr4622 Nope, for they should have helped the poor as the true apostles of Jesus Christ preached and teached in ancient times. Leaders of LDS simply cheated, they lied to members, public and state authorities, and they drastically failed to act in a truely Christian way. However, this is no surprise. When you look at masonic traditions within LDS, fraud is part of the "occult inventory", as defined for all cults by C. G. Jung long ago. For LDS this is the case since the early days of prophecies by Joseph Smith. Sad. 😮
@@Dewey32 Not the federal gov't. They filed all the required paperwork. They were fined because it wasn't clear to the market (investors) that the church had a controlling interest in all the shell companies over a certain size of holdings. You could make a case that it was hidden from the members as a subset of the market overall.
@@cmr4622 I see you spreading a lot of misinformation in your replies. The Church did not file all the required paperwork. That's what the settlement with the SEC is about.
Ohhh man I hope this is true!! Back in 2014 my husband and I tried to adopt through the Mormon church. We had submitted all our financials, paperwork and then paid for the online classes. Once we finished the classes (5 months later) we went in for our interviews and then had our home study scheduled. Thirty min before the social worker was supposed to come to our home for the home study I got a phone call saying my husband and I needed to come in to their office instead. This took place in Centerville Ut btw. So we went to their office and they sat us down saying they couldn’t move forward with helping us to adopt (we had no kids at the time and I can’t get pregnant) because of my debt to income ratio. I had a ton of student debt at the time. Needless to say we were shocked. I wish soooo bad I could go back to that meeting and say “fine, no problem. Then give me back all my tithing donations.” Ugh, it makes me sick every time I think about that meeting… mainly because they Knew of my student debt, they knew all our financials… that was thee first thing we had to submit to move forward. It was such a dishonest/shady thing to do to us. I wish I would have left the church that day. The silver lining is that in 2021 we happily adopted a little baby boy (who has Down syndrome) through Lutheran Family Services in Colorado where we lived at the time. I do not believe for one second that the LDS church is honest with tithing donations. The amount of money they receive monthly could easily end child hunger in all 50 states. Even though my husband is still a member I have begged him to stop giving money to the church. They are good with money!! Give it to small charities where we live who actually need it!!
Lawyer here: it seems to me a big problem for plaintiffs is distinguishing between those who would have paid tithing notwithstanding the fraudulent claims (if such claims can be established) and narrowing which portion of contributions would have been omitted but but for those claims. I’m happy to provide sharp commentary on these issues as a seasoned white collar criminal defense lawyer from a top 10 law school and national law firm.
@@reddish22exactly right. Each putative class member will have his or her own calculus for what they would have paid the church but for the alleged fraud. Many would have paid tithing notwithstanding what was said about the mall due to overriding religious considerations. It seems to me a stretch that a faithful Mormon would not have paid their tithing even if they knew about the alleged fraud. Simply put, the mall is a very small consideration for a faithful Mormon. It’s only a post Mormon who thinks that’s a big deal.
Subject to the law suit, I think it would be great to expose the LDS church in finding out what they really do with the tiling money. It would show the members that they are money, hungry, and really not helping the people in need of help. Yes it takes some money and provide food once months or week for the needy, but that’s only peanuts what they take and the money they make in trading on the stock market and other means by investing in properties, etc.
For all the money collected the church is very very wealthy . No accountability as to where that money goes except for worthless temples and community churches. Worthless temples because they are not open for all members. Yet with all the wealth, there are no lds hospitals or charitable institutions. Maybe BYU tuition free school. But for the most part the members have no voice on how that money is spent.
Also they buy up an ungodly amount of land businesses and make an ungodly amount of profit. They 100% are NOT a charitable organization. Walmart is more charitable than the LDS church
I called church hq to get receipts of all tithing I had ever donated. They said they had NO RECORD of me paying tithing. I asked them how I was able to get a temple recommend…I still can’t get a straight answer
@DirtmopAZ Hey Dirtmop, Church headquarters doesn't have records, recipients or anything about individuals tithing payments. That would be found in your ward. Talk to the ward clerk. You didn't have to go to church headquarters. You just had to go talk to the ward clerk. Remember Tithing Settlement?? It's done with the bishop or they mail it to you with all that information. Why do villages keep loosing their idiots???
If you sing in the Mormaon Tabernacle Choir as I did for 10 years, you are presented to all audiences as a volunteer... except you can't be a member of the choir unless you are a full tithe payer. Does that not mean we paid to sing in the choir and were not volunteers at all ! I would love that tithing money returned.
Not only do I want my tithing back, I also want the $250,000 dollars that the leaders FORCED my father to hand over which was my inheritance! The leaders hoodwinked my father and threatened his membership status if he didn’t write a check which they “claimed” would be for a marriage campaign in California! Found out that the money never went toward that. Also I want the money from the life insurance policy they took out on my father without asking my parents prior and then hastily collected on the week after he passed! That was $750k. There’s no way this church is not for profit when they capitalize on members for political gain and profiting when the members die. I WANT my life back…I was molested by a Navajo exchange student when I was 7 that was sent to our home in the early 80’s, I was molested by our bishop when I was ten years old and by another bishop when I was 14. I was abused by the man I married for 17 years even after going to church leaders multiple times and told to go home and obey and they assured me they would handle him. Instead the abuse escalated. The church did nothing to protect my daughters when they went in and told them that their father was sexually abusing them as well.
Yes, over $1B dollars has so far been taken out of the country through a loophole and put into BYU. Interest from that was taken to help build the large mall in SLC. along with other projects. So in reality, our money is actually being used to help build up Utah and the surrounding area when we could really use it here. We should actually be lobbying our own government to close that loophole so no more money can leave the country, but that still doesn't take away from the dishonest behaviour of the mormon leadership.
@@SharonTaylor-g5l Yes, the spiritual damage will even be much higher than all financial fraud combined. The old fruits of wicked masonry can be harvested once again. 😢😢😢
The Bible says, "The love of money is the root of all evil." The Mormon church has a whole lotta love. [Disclosure: I'm an atheist, but I agree with a whole lotta what Jesus allegedly said.]
Not LDS, but I live in Gilbert, Arizona so many of my neighbors are (and wonderful people). This reminds me of the Praise The Lord scandal with Jim Baaker. There is a fiduciary responsibility for a non-profit organization to spend money in accordance with the goals of the organization. This is similar to the Catholic Church that continues to face questions about the transparency of its finances. Why do churches engage in secular money-making? I think Jesus would be flipping some tables over this.
A judge who is an active member would more than likely not be able to oversee the case as that would be a conflict of interest. Any judgement put forth would be easily thrown out in appeal.
My mom’s ward bishop “helped” members and lend them money to catch up on tithing and attend the temple. He was charging a steeply interest using tithing money, he would recover the money at months end and deposit but kept the interest for himself. The church (first presidency and presiding bishop) is doing the same, how come (if this account is accurate) the bishop was released from his calling, accused of fraud and excommunicated if he did not kept any of the tithing money?
I do not think that ANY of us are saying we regret paying tithing, necessarily, but it is what was done with our money that is the problem. Once I stopped paying $ to the Mormon church I did continue to donate monies, but it was to help families who's houses burned down, or who had parents die in an accident, or help disabled children at Eternal Anchor in Mexico, or help a family with a child living for 6 months in a hospital waiting for a heart, to help bury family members after a tragedy, to donate to my local food bank, or school. . . There are REAL needs out the that our money can go toward. We aren't saying we want to stop paying tithing, but it needs to stop just making the company larger.
As somebody who worked in banking for nearly 14 years and helped people establish business accounts, personal accounts, loans mortgages, construction loans, some business credit cards, and lines of credit, court order accounts, and etc. If you have a business account and you commingle your funds with your personal account, you’ve penetrated the insulation that you’re trying to create with your business account. I would very much argue that all the money the church has received is first and foremost tithing money or money donated via fast offerings which has doctrinal earmarks. Secondly, I would argue that since the funds have been commingled with tithing funds it is all tithing funds. I have no problem with the LDS church having investments but tithing money and its earnings are still tithing money meant to be used for its doctrinal earmarks. If you want to go to people and ask for donations for investments fine. But, if you commingle them then you have a problem.
Tithes used to support member food banks. Now they tell those people ro go to community food banks. No food orders from the Bishops storehouse. Tithes are paid under duress.
You are so right. We were told to pay our tithing first, above all else, and if we couldn't afford to buy food or pay our bills afterwards, we were to go to family and friends first and the church last. There is no way this practice is of Christ.
As a former bishop, you are to ask what resources the individual and/or family has. Second, you ask if there may be certain family members who may have the means to help. This is not to withhold funds from the Church to the member. Third,the ward RS President is asked to visit with the family and food needs. As a bishop, I used fast offering funds to assist with many members during the 2008 recession. These included paying mortgages, substance use treatment, utilities, medical bills, and many others. The members NEVER went without food. The RS always took food from the Bishops storehouse and filled the fridge, freezer, and pantry. Sometimes for several months. Furthermore, with the member in needs permission, I would ask other ward members with means to provide if they would like to provide additional funds to members in need. All were willing to do so. We were not a wealthy ward, but many assisted with funds when they could. I also served as the lead Bishop as part of a Welfare Committee of all the Bishops in the Stake. All the Bishops and the Stake President ensured that all the members needs were taken care of. This is how all Stakes work. To represent Bishops and other leaders as indignant, withholding and punitive is not only disingenuous,but a blatant falsehood and likely with additional malintent to misinform and mislead.
@@michaeladamson8240 I told my relief society president that I needed help finding a ride to the cancer clinic for a bone marrow biopsy. She said she didn't know of anyone and she had a yoga class to attend. The bishop also knows I have no surviving family except a father in hospice. He gave me a list of food banks and knows my car could not be registered because it failed emmissions. I have been a member over 50 years. This is the only time I asked for food assistance in at least 20 years.
@@michaeladamson8240 it may be that I was very new to this ward as I had only recently moved into the area. I'm a senior citizen and joined 52 years ago. I have no records against me. It's probably also the fact I live in las vegas and this area is known for transients however I own my home mortgage free. A also just won an injury lawsuit so I won't be needing any assistance for ever again. This ward just seemed so closed doors and cold and judgemental that I will no longer attend in this area.
@@michaeladamson8240 I also asked for nothing during the recession. Nothing at all. I did have a bad fall and broke my arm and shoulder and had to have the joint replaced. Last year 6 weeks in hospital, surgery and living alone at home. No phone calls for wellness checks. It's very click here. I recently settled an injury claim for nearly 1 million. Guess who won't be paying any tithes on that now.
It seems plausible that even the "commercial entities owned by the church" came from tithing in the past. It seems pretty arbitrary also that they make a distinction between tithing and money earned from investments of that tithing money.
Church reaps profits. Members invest via tithes unde4 duress due to expectations for membership, and imposed at a very early ade, but no members benefit from the profits.
The LDS church isn't doing it's duty, as God has set forth, to their members. The church has even said don't apply for food stamps "we will provide for you" provide what? They provide one or twwo weeks of food and that's it. The church has sold its farm, ranch and food processing thus cutting down drastically on its ability and willingness to provde for the poor as God has commanded.
If they didn't use tithing funds where did they get the money? Howard Hughes? If they invested tithing money, they still used the profits from that tithing money.
I was a very lapsed Mormon in early 80s with a very devout Mormon boyfriend who tried for SIX years to get me worthy enough to marry in the temple. I was a loan officer doing that time and told him I would start paying tithing only when the church started publishing its financial statements so I could see what they do with all that money. He told me I was being ridiculous. I finally terminated that 6 year relationship and 6 months later he married someone else in the temple. Complete waste of 6 years of my life.
They required tithes for full participation and the claimed that they didn’t have funds to provide custodians. So we began cleaning the meeting houses as well.
Then we find out that they are worth upwards of $200 billion.
@Lynn.Panadero4242 Lynn, we clean our meeting house. 😉🙂
Correct! I am still waiting for a church video showing the big 15 cleaning church toilets, showing how a seer does the job, with nice music playing in the background, while they give us faith-promoting quotes as they brush the sacred latrines. I am losing hope I will ever see it. Perhaps in the millennium!
😭 you made my day!!! Hilarious!
For many years, the Church used to pay only one member to clean our meetinghouse. NOW the members are happy to be all involved in cleaning and caring for the meetinghouse for Sunday worship. We love rendering this meaningful service. Obviously, you don’t care at all.
Sounds like the prophet didn't see it coming....
I'll show myself out.
😂
So much for "seeing around corners..." 🙄
Probably didn’t throw the magical rocks in right hat fund😂
@@rebeccasirrine947no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. There are many corners to turn before reaching the destination. Think bigger picture, the prophet won’t lead you astray 3:49
@@rogeliofranco7713nobody believes your fake threats of magical evil invisible sorcerers floating around
I was hoodwinked and paid my tithing rather than put money towards retirement or in the bank for several years. Thank goodness I found the book Meditation for Dummies. This book taught me mantra meditation which benefited me 10x more than the Mormon church ever did. This book also taught me that my feelings are not evil and it is okay to feel feelings and not act on those feelings.
🙌🙌🙌
Why not just become a Christian?
😂😂😂😂😂 you made my day😂😂😂😂❤
❤
Your feelings are evil. That's evil inside you, where do you think evil comes from?
I served as a missionary in Mexico, I tought many people in small towns, I tought them that they should pay tithing because the church use that money in building chapels ,sending missionaries over the world and doing charity, many people is so poor that they live in houses with dirt floor, no AC, I feel bad about all those poor , literally poor people, tithing, thinking they're giving their money to God.
así es jorgito esos falsos profetas y apóstoles son unos estafadores venden adiós por dinero para que ellos vivan con todas las comodidades y no les importa ver alas jente pobre viviendo en casa de lámina y pisos de tierra estube en la secta mormona y descubri sus mentiras y como nos manipulan y como juegan con nuestra mente asta que nis enferman con tanta manipulación meda mucha anciedad ver aestos falsos apóstoles y profetas como digo el apóstol Pablo y después de mi vendrán falsos profetas y falsos apóstoles engañando y gastándose de ellos mismos no ves esos líderes no sudan ni se abochornan están bien demandados pero ahí tienes sus salvadores qué les pagan miles de dólares para que los defiendan estos líderes ya están callendo en su propia trampa
dios quiera que se aga justicia y regresen todo el dinero ala jente que le robaron con sus mentiras y con tanta ya esos líderes están callendo en su propia ratonera
I heard the families pay for their kids missionary , not LDS
@jorgitosalazar38
I remember growing up my mother always making meals for the missionaries, we’d take it over to them. Even though we had many children (8) and did not have a lot of money, we always fed the missionaries. We were always blessed with food. By giving we gain. The same thing can be applied to paying of tithing.
Tithing is mentioned in the Bible beginning from Genesis. God does not require our tithing, it is for us. To help us in many ways. Tithing is a spiritual practice. It is more than the giving of money. If people gave it because they felt coerced then the whole meaning of tithing is lost on them.
Proverbs 3:9
"Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce."
Malachi chapter 3
I have often wondered why build so many temples when the Mormon church could use these funds to feed the poor and cloth the naked but then I remember that temples are holy, spiritual places. Just as a Buddist temple is holy and spiritual, a temple is holy and spiritual. Perhaps more can be done to feed the poor and hungry, cloth the naked. But isn’t the spiritual also feeding us?
@@fab4fan173we help missionaries , pay tithing and the church has also helped us many times when we were need even without us asking showing up with food helping with bills we even had a bishop help get us a heater for our house because we were without heat this is a bunch of crap tithing is god given principle
NeverMo but my husbands 1st wife is LDS. When she initially married her 2nd husband, they were getting a family started and struggling financially. They were faithful tithers on minimal income and went to the church to ask for help with food and housing they were told "no". How does the church actually help people in their daily lives with the tithing money? Building a new temple or improving church grounds isn't going to put food on someone's table.
They don't help people, they help themselves.
They don't, and what little they do, often has one feeling shameful for asking.
@@SharonTaylor-g5l feel shameful and go do service to "pay" for it. Even though they give year-after-year, to get back in return, it's not a direct return for help when needed.
Tithing is used for those situations Fast Offering donations are used for local welfare needs such as these . Sometimes you may not actually have all the information that went into the decision and sometimes the Bishop just doesn't get it and makes the wrong decision
Correction to above: tithing is NOT used for these situations
"For it is the LOVE of MONEY that is the ROOT of ALL EVIL."
I have a friend who's Mormon husband paid for 19yo escorts. She was told by a bishop to not work and to just be a wife & mother in order to be blessed and the family flourish. 20+ years she gave up to be a house wife and her husband left her and their kids after multiple, ongoing affairs. She was kicked out of their house, went to the church to get help with food and rent so that she and her 6 children wouldn't be HOMELESS and the bishop gave them food, ONCE and threw a tiny bit of money her way to help cover one months rent. 😡 That was *IT.* That was the ONLY help she got.
This "church" has hurt so many people/families.
Down with them!!!!
this is typical of the mormons
I had a sweet friend who's husband was rather well known and liked in the region. They had three children who had special x syndrome, the two boys were severely effected. After 10 years of putting up with the multiple affairs, left her homeless and jobless. She went to her bishop for help to get her back on her feet but was turned away. They recommended that she ask a member if they could put her up temporarily. They offered her their unfinished garage, no heat or cooling. She lived there for half a year with her disabled children. May I also add She was in the relief society presidencey
😮😮😮
@@HosCreates it requires a bishops signature sadly 😥
cry harder
Mormon church: just a massive investment house masquerading as a church. What a shell game.
Brilliant really.
The LDS church has many national and multi-national investments on which they make billions of dollars and use none of it to help the less fortunate many of which has children of which the church openly encourages the parents to have large famlies ostensibly to grow the church.
I feel like what was done to so many members was a form of extortion. I feel like they used parent's love for their children and turned it into a great money making scheme--pay your tithing or you won't be able to be with your children again in the next life. It makes me so sad to think of how this affected my ability to be the best Mom to my kids. I forfeited proper medical attention for a sometimes debilitating health issue that made me so tired I could barely function at times. Finally used tithing money to go get the help I needed and was finally diagnosed correctly (and was shamed by a stake presidency member for doing so). I cleaned houses while my kids were at school during the financial crash so we could still pay our tithing and pay the bills, and came home so tired I could barely take care of my own house and duties as a mom. I tried to get a scholarship to college (BYU) when I was a stay at home Mom to go back and finish my degree, couldn't get one, and ended up not finishing school. I didn't want to not pay my tithing and thought that I would be blessed more by paying tithing. It's easy for people who have the financial wiggle room to pay tithing and still have extra to spare to look down on people who don't and judge them for not paying their tithing when they can't meet other obligations. Looking back, I realize God WAS providing all we needed for our family. I really don't think God expected us to forfeit our health or wellbeing so that the church could hoard money. I compare it to the verses in the bible referring to "the living water". The Salvation offered to us through Jesus Christ is a living, breathing, always evolving thing that can transform our lives if we allow it in. Compare that to the way the church takes it's members money--the money they hoard is stagnating, dead, not moving, not alive.
A religion of human achievement. Enough said. Thanks for sharing.
The whole trouble comes from the very beginning of LDS. Masonic distortion is an evil seed... 😮
The bastards owe me $250,000. I'll take mine with a modest interest rate as well, thank you very much!
Fascinating. I wish I could watch the proceedings with this attorney breaking down the arguments. He does a really good job explaining the issues to non-lawyers. That is an invaluable skill.
My wife and I used to go to synagogue regularly. We once asked about membership and they basically told us that they didn’t need more money, they were just very glad that we were young and present in the community.
I tried a new church with my kids and the entire sermon was about money and how to contribute and I never went again it's been 15 years.
@@adamredwine774 that’s why I respect the Catholic Church for getting money off of voluntary donations and book sales
They do not tithe at all is what I’m saying
@@eastonsaccountCatholics expect you to tithe also most aren’t obsessed with it like other denominations! Same goes for Lutherans
What is great about Judaism vs Christianity is that Judaism isn’t a proselytizing religion. It costs a lot of money to proselytize
Thank you for your work, Mr.Dehlin and team
As members we were told; Tithing moneys were to help the poor and needy all over the world, and help with maintain church building’s and programs. Missionaries were to fund their own missions for the most part! When the Seattle temple was in the works, the area members were assessed a temple building fee on top of tithing, missionary funds, offerings and fast fees. Yes we were told how much we were to pay!Tithing was not optional …. It was demanded ! And you were hounded and shamed to comply! Also, the members were told that investing in the stock market was evil …. Gambling ! A sin according to the church!
I could not have said that better!!!
There were also building funds demanded to build new meeting houses when the stake expanded. Who pays for that now? Is it still the members?
Its because they wanted your money and for you not to risk losing money
Even though they have billions and billions of dollars. SMH sad
I never heard of any member being told (myself included) that investing in the stock market was evil.
I never have high hopes of huge organizations getting whats coming, but i would love for this class action to really hurt them financially, or open them up to more lawsuits.
I doubt it will directly hurt the church's finances at all. That said, it is forcing their greedy practices into the light. And it may set some legal precedent to protect people of all faiths from misleading messaging regarding tithes.
To me, the main thing this accomplishes is making church investments public knowledge. As they should be. Because they are based on tithes and tax-exempt.
At the very least, I would love to see their tax exemption taken away world wide.
Yea totally. I doubt it will have a major impact on them, but a girl can dream lol
It will send a message to current and prospective members that it’s a scam and if the money flowing in dies down, they will suffer.
@critterscute3642 unfortunately the church's investment arm has already built up so much wealth that, short of legally taking away its ability to invest, church leaders will continue to profit with or without continued tithing.
I want mine back. Paid six figures in my adult life before walking away from the religion. How do I get my money back?
You don’t 😂
we're waiting for the lawsuit to get class action status. It probably wont go to trial but hopefully they will settle out of court and issue payments. I want mine back as do many others.
Yeah but you tithed so you could get temple passes and do secret handshakes and mock God.
Same, count me in this thing.
I’m in!
Tithing used for missions? Not for the missionaries. The families as I understand have to scrape around to collect money for their child's mission. Free labor. Shame on the wealthy church. Those missionaries should be fully supported with church money while on their missions .
Yes, but tithing money still pays for certain things, like the Mission President’s expenses.
I'm not surprised the mission president would be looked after. No help for the young missionaries who can't afford a decent place to live in a safe neighbourhood, or where their next decent meal will come from.
And then they still have billions left over. Plenty to help pay for the missionaries. At the very least they could pay them enough for a decent amount of food.
Go watch Nemo the Mormon's recent video on mission presidents' expenses being reimbursed such as a gardener and gifts for their children and free university schooling for their kids. It's pretty horrible.
@@SharonTaylor-g5lare missions really that rough?
Just before my grandfather died he apologized to me saying that he had spent too much money and time with the church and not enough for this family.
Powerful
Born and raised in SLC, baptized in 1958. I refused to pay tithing and left the church when I was only 15 years old. Could not accept their premise that they were the only true church of God.
I want mine back. What a crock of lies the church is a scam.
There comes a point where we cut our losses and RUN ! Im the oldest of 10 & now only 4 left mormon. We all paid for education and the rights to speak out though!
Being told that if you didn't pay your honest tithing that you would burn in hell. Yeah, not fear based at all.
It’s a corporation/private equity/hedge fund masquerading as a church to avoid taxes and using members’ money to do it.
@@critterscute3642 Yep and another Utah boy GavinPeterson, just starved to death! mormons pay LD$ first and kids are used as social & religious PAWNS
They all are...
What a scam. Glad to see something being done to hold this organization responsible.
Why do people go on paying tithing.Just STOP!
Because you don't get to be exalted or be with your family... IF there's some chance any of this might be true. I know a lot of members on the fence who stay in out of fear. But, of course, you say it's all about your love for God and desire to follow Christ. 🙄😑
Brainwashing runs deep, especially if it's been happening since childhood.
They believe their salvation depends upon it.
Even if they don’t believe in the “blessings” promised, there are major social implications, particularly in heavily LDS populated areas. I am a convert and it’s very easy for me to say no to church, but my husband is a generational member and it’s a lot harder for him. There are a lot of personal mental games lifelong members have to consider when choosing not to pay tithing. It can be a much deeper issue than “I don’t want to pay.” It’s hard.
@@1955porscheor even go back to god or see your family again
it's not charitable donations if it's REQUIRED
But it’s not required by law. Just if you don’t want to go to outer darkness.
Membership fees - literally. You can't participate in the temple / religious ceremonies if you don't pay. They're club fees.
Apostasy is the road to outer darkness.
Paying a full gross tithe is for temple membership and guaranteeing in the afterlife (as a man) his own planet in the celestial kingdom as a god. With plural spirit wives no less.
The church uses tithing as a lure. Sure, you don’t HAVE to pay but the implication is, missing out on all the “blessings” and godhood sure will suck for you!
Ugh! I’m so sick of the church and its shameful shenanigans from its very beginnings to today!
@@codename495or if you want to go back to the celestial kingdom where God is. Or attend weddings of family members who are active in the church. Or avoid the shame of telling your ecclesiastical leader that you aren’t keeping your promise you made to god. I could go on. Don’t try to downplay the significance of it
So I grew up in the lds church, and I also married into a Catholic family (in Germany). There's waaay less pressure to pay tithing in the lds church than there is to donate in a Catholic Church from my experience. 1st off, in Germany they literally take tithing out of your paycheck for Catholic and Protestant religions, and if you unregister your religion with the government then the next Sunday the Priest will read out your name at church to announce you've left the Church. Mormons in Germany do not have money taken directly out of their paycheck. In the Catholic church, in addition to the paycheck deduction, they pass around a plate every Sunday. Plus, there are multiple holidays where kids go from door to door and ask for donations... at least one of those holidays the kids write something above your door when you donate, so if you don't then anyone who visits you would know you didn't donate.
In the LDS church, donations are kept very private. Deciding whether you are a full tithe payer or not is up to YOU, not up to them to decide.
Since the church has been around over a hundred years and ecclesiastical leaders have never been paid, there is no doubt they have a lot of money. I think it would be very reasonable to imagine they have accrued billions in interest alone, so I have no doubt they can fund projects like the City Creek Mall while still using tithes for their intended purpose.
My point is that there's pretty much no way to suggest they are worse than more common Christian religion when it comes to tithes. If anything, this suggests that maybe they have the most efficient organization, and that's not a reason to punish them. I just don't see this going anywhere. The 9th Circuit typically has the worst takes of any federal circuit, so them overturning something on appeal literally means nothing.
Tithing payers should receive dividends. Folks have been investing after all. Go go team zion
This idea is perfect. At last adjust amounts to current value instead of past values. A lot of time has been passing.
That's a way for the leaders to ensure allegiance from members.
I think that's a good idea. Percentage Dividends for what the church makes in investments. But I wonder if the members would just be taxed for it anyway
Guess we should just put our own money into stocks or real estate instead of giving it to the church where it’ll end up there anyway.
I would join the class action lawsuit. I paid over 80,000 in tithing, not including fast offerings, missionary fund, and 2 years of unpaid labor as a missionary, a self-paid mission in California from December 1995 to December 1997.
48:30 I would like to know, why in the hell is the Church competing??? Which current or prospective members (children of God, whose worth is immeasurably great) is the Church trying to outcompete??
The Church should be utterly ashamed of this ethic, and it shows why EPA needs to have a public investment policy. IMO the Church should invest only passively. No direct competition, no zero-sum trade gains, no being a freaking landlord that has to evict people.
When they soil their own bathwater with these kind of actions and then impose on young men and women a duty to serve missions it just makes me sick.
Competing with Catholics and Scientology for who is the most corrupt.
Where did the church get the funds invested? Tithing. So indirectly they used tithing. Any money the church uses comes from tithing donations…. To say otherwise is simply false
Mostly true but the for-profit enterprises play a role in this as well. If you are conceding the fact that tithing funds are used indirectly then that almost makes the tithing lawsuit DOA.
Semantics. Church has only ever had tithing as their income.
Anything is traceable to tithing. It’s hand waving and smoke in mirrors.
I agree. Like the whole structure begins with tithing. Back to the old use of people smashing their china to make the outside of the temple so they actually used goods in lieu of money. It's all a foundation of donations.
@@cmr4622 no… Because the for profit enterprises would not even exist if it wasn't for the money from tithing that allowed the church to buy/create them. Everything the church has originally has come from donations and tithing. From Joseph Smith duping people into giving them his money to start banks etc., all the way down to today. There is no profit in the church that didn't start with a donation.
I think they claim that it was other types of donations that were used, such as land donations. I think that claim was actually proved false, however, and tithing funds have been misused. The government fined them millions after all so there is foul play.
Any time Kolby is ‘splaining, I’m listening! I trust his analysis WAY more than I trust the church.
I went on my mission because I thought it was true and thought I was giving 2 years of my time to the church to teach what they told me was true. One of those things was the law of tithing. Also a lay leadership among other things. I want my 2 years of life back. They misrepresented everything and told us as missionaries to teach things they knew were not true.
Cult
I want my 20s back. And my 30s and my 40s. Please live your dreams and be happy ❤
please set yourself free
The old testament law of tithing is tied to a "paid clergy", namely the Tribe of Levi who did not own land and who worked in the temple. Asking for tithing, but then also asking them to work as bishops, elders quorum president, etc, and to clean the ward themselves, makes no sense. It should be either / or.
@@charlesmendeley9823
I am so glad to hear somebody say that. I’ve not read the Bible for quite some time but from what I recall, you are 100% correct
Dividends, compound interest, appreciation and punitive damages should all be payed out proportionately to the members - investors! Tax Free! After they pay taxes due, Ensign Peak and the Corporation of The President should be dissolved! And the church should be issued a cease-and-desist order!
Yes!!!!!
The final take down of LD$ will be the federal audits. Its the biggest business in Utah & definitely for profit. They also own a big portion of stock in U2be (control in social media)!! so they may strike this comment
So you are suggesting the Corporation of Jesus Christ should get out of the religion business and quit promising their clients something they are singularly ill-equipped to deliver?
Those velvet seats have got to be warm
This is the only way I would be satisfied. If I had been stockpiling away my 10% for my whole life tax free, I could probably quit my job at age 35. The only way this will be fair to the members is if the church gives back our money with the interest they earned on it!
The Commandment to not take the name of God in vain is about using God to get fame, fortune, power, authority, etc. - it is not about profanity.
You know this makes a lot of sense!
You cannot attend the Temple without paying your tithings.
That in and of itself is dispicable to me.. a glaring red flag the lds church is pay to play.
Or at least paying just enough to show on records. You can lie regarding the full ten percent, and pay/donate say two or three percent.
@@hollybug-76542 If you are Catholic in Germany you must register with the government so they can deduct tithing directly out of your paycheck. If you unregister you get excommunicated.
In the Mormon church, they follow the principle that tithings are commanded by God, so in order to go to the place where you have to "be your best" you are expected to be following the commandments. Whatever you pay and whether it is "enough" is between you, God, and your local church leader. Plus, if you don't pay tithing in the lds church, you can still participate in every other aspect of the church except attending the Temple. It's not even a close comparison between these two organizations as to who puts more pressure on members.
Satan's throne is in that temple.
This is true
As a former FBI agent, if I were the investigator in this case, I would subpoena every translation in a foreign language, of the talks in question by Hinckley. Those translations would give a picture of the message that was being received by the church as a whole. My guess is that there would not be much nuance, if any. The message of those translations taken together would provide a compelling argument about how most of the church understood the message of President Hinckley.
That is an excellent idea!
Excellent idea 💡
Great idea. Those are the skills developed by a true investigator
I knew Agent Rod would be following this very closely.
Would you secretly do your best to destroy Trump?
Should the tithes not be used to help widows and children and members not only to enrich the church ?
Absolutely
Yes, that was what the tithes were made for, in a time long before modern commercial "churches" emerged. 😢
Yes, but they don't, unless they are also paying tithing. If you don't pay, you don't get help, period.
I think one simple change to the law would cut these kind of issues down dramatically and that's start treating churches like every other nonprofit as far as reporting where their money goes, how much money is coming in, etc....
OR the churches (of course) would have the option to NOT comply and forfeit their 501c3 status which makes them tax exempt...
If they're not doing anything shady then they won't have to worry...
I want mine back. I was shamed in to paying tithing, I was told it was to help the build the church, helping to build temples and church buildings. With more to help those in need.
Malls are temples of capitalism.
just think their goes you retirement sucker
They must never settle! It's not about the money for these plaintiffs. Imagine the impoverished parents in Guatemala who followed the counsel to pay their tithing and let their kids go hungry.
Normally I would agree, but I think that the reason people settle is that they run out of money for legal fees. The church has endless funds, and at some point people can't pay anymore to fight.
Also the church must not lose this law suit because it could/would set a Precedent. They cannot have that or they would have to pay back the tithes of every single person who wants their tithing back. THAT would cost $$$!!!
It's funny to think that during general conference, the leaders would talk about people in other countries having to sacrifice so much to pay a full tithe si they could get to the temple. Apparently, church buildings in some of these locations are being shut down or repurposed due to lack of membership. My son's stake had to readjust boundaries due to the dwindling number of priesthood holders.
Temple Recommend Question #9: Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?"
They used to ask: "Have you been honest in ALL of your dealings with your fellow man? " Is anyone asking the church leaders this question?
I guess there IS a monetary consequence to hiding money from the US government.
They actually look for loopholes and hide money from governments of every country they are in.
I want my tithing back!!! This is a giant fraud scheme.
I want my tithing back too!!! What a waste on a dishonest corporation that I didn't even know was a corporation!
CULT
How? How did you not know?
@@Omar-kk9fp Just take a look at the figures discussed: This has been a giant rip-off.
@@MaxRoth-mc6nb . How did you NOT see this for the scam that it obviously was? The fact that it was/is a scam of HUGE proportions just intensifies the matter
@@bodytrainer1crane730 . Virtually all such entities are 'corporations' of some description - nonprofit in the case of religions, charities, and the like.
If the church was found to be deceiving members on how they were using funds in the class action lawsuit, not only would the principal be returned, but the principal plus interest would be required to make deceived members whole.
And that's the problem with the church distinguishing between tithing and interest on tithing. If they misled to get the tithing, then the interest belongs to me too. Which is exactly why they began restructuring, and why they changed the tithing slips to not designate where money goes. As a side note, I think this is exactly why they published the essays and then hid them on their website. They want to make a public notice so people can't say they knowingly lied about their doctrines and start the clock on any statute of limitations.
Personally this is why I've never had my records removed. I want a full accounting on record for what I paid, because one day in the not too distant future, the church will go into a receivership, and I don't want them making excuses that they were instructed to delete my information. No sir, I'm gonna collect!
They didn’t hid the essays. That’s just nonsense. I regularly see communications about the essays and how to go about accessing them. Not hard at all.
Yes they did.
@@shanejensen8484 I've tried looking up the essays multiple times on their website to send them to people. You have to pretty much know the title of the essay to get it in the search results. If you only know keywords, the church's search engine will drop the essay WAYYYY down on the list.
So if you're a curious member that wants to know the church's position, you won't 'fall into' the essays which in my opinion are the church's definitive and authoritative positions on difficult topics. You'll have to dig and dig and dig. There should be a shortcut on the top ribbon of church websites to direct potentially doubting members to the church's official stance. Conference talks from the 1980s should not be the top line results when searching for answers.
@@Ana-hz5fw no they actually didn’t. Unless you call hiding them in plain sight, accessible to anyone who wanted to find them, hiding them.
This is a great point. I was considering asking for my records to be removed, but this makes me want to wait it out.
I know the attorney Bruce Rivers just won a case in MN for about 50 million in damages for a burn victim and it was the highest punitive damages award ever in the state; but the company stretched it out FOR 10 YEARS!
If these are all consolidated and tried in Utah, where they have home court advantage, and more than 50 percent of jurors, attorneys, civil servants, etc. are LDS, I wouldn't be surprised if this case dragged on at least 10 years. They have the funds to drag this out for as many years as the church has been in existence.
1967 I had a snow shoveling job with pres. HINCKLEYS BROTHER'S lead mine. He showed up only one day. At 14 years old, he was by far the nastiest meanest man I had met.
Hinckley in Oct '97 Conference: "We are not a financial institution. [We just OWN and RUN a few--including a for-profit insurance company, a trust company, and an investment management company I started last Monday with $7 billion of unused "reserves" we had lying around--all just pieces of the overall conglomerate.] We are the Church of Jesus Christ."
They are also major stock holders of U2be. I did get a mssg from LDS that they did not feel my Australia psychic movie was conducive to their family standards. Im in UTAH USA and constantly being reprimanded in Utah for speaking out. Speak in code or they strike ya out! judges- cops- attorneys- teachers and Auditors !!
@@PhyreReighnWHAT'S THE LINK TO YOUR MOVIE???
Excellent clarification for GBH. 😂
"The Church is not wealthy... and has no paid ministry." - Thomas S. Monson
@@valerieedwards9911 I was watching "Sensing murder" from Australia. Now people have uploaded some of those and Ive been allowed a couple takes. They are amazing !
I'm so VERY glad this lawsuit is being rolled out. So many "churches" have extorted money from people who were hurting, who were lonely, who were grieving or heartbroken & just wanted to be closer to God and a part of a community. Despicable.
Not Godly at ALL.
SHAME on them!!
No different than the early Catholic Church. I would trust a Catholic charity these days rather than LDS.
It is even worse, for those practices are widely spread. The leaders of Witnesses of Yehova for example, abused their followers this way, and even a lot of more moderate groups are corrupted as well. For example, New Apostolic Church, and many others. This is so sad. Those corrupted people perverted the very core of Christian values and did enormous harm to all honest believers WHO trusted them. Corrupted leaders have behaved like enemies of Jesus Christ for such a long time and they still lie about their greedy sins. 😢😢😢
Oh man I would love to get my tithing back!! I'm so upset where a lot of the money goes and it feels horrible knowing I donated so much money to them
Give your tithing to a charity or someone charity thst helps the homeless.
@elainebeard2922..or try feeding the homeless yourself they won't rub off on you.❤
@@raspberry4471 Sorry, Church
I think of the hundreds of thousands of dollars my parents have paid over the course of their lifetime yet they left nothing in any form of inheritance for their kids and their grandkids. Grandkids will likely be unable to ever afford a house and so it’s hard not to think of how much that money could’ve blessed their posterity’s lives if invested instead of just adding to the church’s horde.
That's really sad. 😢
Sad
Totally agree. My dad gave nearly $500,000 to the church right before he died… yet his kids are struggling financially.
I’m so sorry 😢. Unfortunately this situation is extremely common.
Disgusting!!
My husband and I paid millions in tithing over the years and would love a chance to get it back. I don’t believe it could ever happen though.
Why?
@@RobbinFlowerspresumably because the church lied about how much money they had and what they were doing with the money
@@RobbinFlowers why would we love to get it back? Or why do I think it won’t ever happen?
@debbie6787 you had it to give, you gave. Individuals give all the time to orgs like red cro without digging deeper . . . Buyer beware . . .
On a side note, are you aware of anyone getting made whole from a scam artist?
@@YogiTheBearMan They lied about how much money they had? Someone asked them and they gave an incorrect number?
Mormonism is a religion of business.
I want my grandparents’ tithing back. 30 years of being a bishop & hundreds of thousands in tithing
Exactly! I want 5 Generations of tithing back. The Church had the audacity to deny help to my disabled Auntie when she needed it most. Anytime someone in my family has reached out and actually asked for assistance it's been all but denied. It just disgusts me to know they've amassed such wealth and yet refuse charity to their own members.
@@hollybug-76542 The church has helped me out with my mortgage once when I had shingles IN MY EYE. They treated me like dirt
@hollybug-76542 that's terrible! No wonder they have so much money.
That is heartbreaking
Hmm. No wonder only too doo men are Bishops. Plus they work on the sabbath , on Wednesday nights for free.
They get tax benefits for not being a commercial business. They can't have it always
It makes no sense for a church to own a mall.
@@charlesmendeley9823 It strongly depends on the true intentions of the leaders... 😢
That would REALLY help us New Zealand members coz we've been struggling for decades!
Many of us just walked away. After seeing the pensioners suffer. Church... no way..
Sign us all up. We all struggling. Every little bit helps. Will work for food.
@@Lovethisguy-kf1ku I've been doing that at my local foodbank for a year and its helped me a lot. Nothing to do with the LDS church either. They're useless. 🤣🤣🤣
@@samwise5493 Wow. Is this in America?
@@HaapaiTeUrioHau nz
My husband and i paid so much towards thithing.. noted it for the missionaries and after hearing stories from returning missionaries on here... Im pissed. We barely could make ends meet because of always alloting thithing first. I want it all back.
Your feelings are 100% valid 💔❤️
Those leaders in charge have been lying to all true believers. 😮
My faith broke 10 months into a mission. My Mom talked me into staying, but that is pointless. I no longer cared; everyone saw it. members, Investigators, other missionaries. It is amazing how much power there is to not caring. They cannot make you care! They would push and threaten, and I would laugh daring them to send me home. I didn't break the rules!
When you have over 100 billion dollars, you can buy any legal outcome you wish. Good luck cracking that nut. If it miraculously opens, you can be sure it will have been vacated long ago....
Also, if this case happens in Utah or Idaho, there will be a good chance of the Judge being Mormon. There's no way he will rule against his own church.
Never a Mormon, once a baptist and currently Agnostic. So disappointed in organized religion. So cult-like. Love what you do as I find it extremely interesting.
As a single mom I paid thousand a yesr, but couldnt afford to pay my sons university tuition. Sure paid to srnd other people kids to post secondary tho. 😨
Yeah being a single mom you should not have to pay tithing. Research the criteria for the original tithing and live by that.
@@Jsppydays Tithing is NOT the problem. The way the tithing has been used appears to be the problem. Tithing is a biblical principle.
@@Cocoisagordonsetter but she needed the money. Why make people tithe when they cant really afford it. Let people decide where and how much they want to donate for a good cause. Why does it have to be a church. Why not a nonprofit?
@@Cocoisagordonsetterreally? What commandment is tithing spoken about
I'm sure it doesn't feel good to know that the church leaders' kids and grandkids all get free tuition at BYU…
I heard a member tell of citizens/members in a poverty stricken country, who would sell their only pig, because they were told to pay tithing. A pig.
The church also states that they’re not involved in political practises worldwide. So why be involved in the UN then?
That is disgusting to guilt people.
In impoverished South America members were asked to donate to help build a temple: some donated the gold from their cavity fillings and the local authority took the fillings around to show members in more affluent communities as an example of true selfless sacrifice.
They Have a covenant with the UN
Apostles tell impoverished people to use their food money to pay tithing instead.
Just think the church is using your tithing money to fight the lawsuits. It even uses your tithing money to pay the court fees for the abuser. That sealed the deal for me!
I would LOVE my tithing back
Would you share it with the poor?
So where does the money come from? The interest on the tithing? Isn't that still part of the tithing?
These comments are pure gold. I was so mad at the church but now I'm laughing 😭 great comments. Sorry to all of those who paid into this debacle, I hope you all get your money back and more. The church is a corporation and a soul trap.
I liked what John said about spiritual coercion being worse sometimes than physical coercion.
Absolutely
Evil techniques of mind control by the use of fear and terror... 😮
I would love to know how to get onto this. In my prime earning years, I paid at least six figures. With the impending crash of fiat currencies across the Earth, I will take the local chapel as my repayment on the investment + interest.😮
You will be added to the class action if you paid as it was mentioned above after 1998-present. If you only paid before, then that would be at this point up to you to file a lawsuit. We have actually been added to a lot of random class action things we didn't even know about. You receive a letter in the mail occasionally letting you know of your rights. I can't imagine this is going to be a small class action. They (LDS) have your legal information so you'll be tracked down with the outcome. You should also follow the details too.
How do I get my own case? I am a widow and my kids are the fatherless (specifically mentioned in canon) and when we asked for help we have been told that’s not what the funds are for. I contributed almost 100k in a single year a few years prior to needing any assistance. I have documented conversations.
How is it not soliciting under false pretense?
I've been a full tithe payer for my entire life and a few years back, my daughter wanted to go on a mission while I was going through some personal challenges which presented some financial strain, but never did I ask or even hint for any type of assistance. One day, my bishop called me and my wife out of the blue (separately) to let us know that the church would not be assisting in any way with any of our daughters' mission expenses. I told him we never requested assistance and didn't even need it. I found this call so offensive, first, because we never requested any type of assistance, and second, what if we needed assistance, after paying very large sums of tithing, why would my bishop go out of his way to proactively notify me that there wouldn't be any assistance. This was so utterly baffling and offensive. Perhaps this only happens in Heber City, UT and perhaps it was only the judgement of our ex-bishop Hicken, but I suspect that this is a systemic problem with poor leadership, and a greedy church HQ.
The future investment income potential of the tithing dollars I handed over in faith was a HUGE part of my tithing consecration (and everyone else's). So for the Church to refer to the "income on invested reserves" as if it's a totally separate thing and apparently not considered by them to be part of what I gave up for tithing--feels a bit dismissive and disrespectful of the full meaning of the consecration.
So if they didn't invest it at all and just hid it in the temple basement, you would have been fine with it?
I think the parable of the talents might be used in the court case
If consecration includes the future potential of what ever you donate, then you should have accounted for that when you paid it and just said you were a full tithe payer. Or if you were smart, you should have donated appreciated stock at least a year old then that would have accounted for some of the future income and you wouldn't have had to pay capital gains.
Definitely not okay with me for them to bury it. And I never was expecting them to invest it and show a return. But the giving up of future investment income potential was a real impact on my end as a faithful tithepayer--all potential for that future investment income for myself was given away to the Church. So if the Church does invest it and realizes investment gains/returns, the least they can do is acknowledge that they are only getting those investment gains/returns because members transferred those gains from their own future selves to the Church--as a meaningful part of their tithing consecration. And for the Church to not acknowledge this--and even refer to it as something separate, and definitively state and argue that it is specifically NOT part of the member's tithing consecration dismisses and disrespects the full meaning and impact of the faithful consecration for the faithful tithepaying member.
@@cmr4622no. We were taught every year in Sunday School lessons, that tithing was for charity, and for rescuing the poor and needy.
@@cmr4622 Nope, for they should have helped the poor as the true apostles of Jesus Christ preached and teached in ancient times.
Leaders of LDS simply cheated, they lied to members, public and state authorities, and they drastically failed to act in a truely Christian way.
However, this is no surprise. When you look at masonic traditions within LDS, fraud is part of the "occult inventory", as defined for all cults by C. G. Jung long ago. For LDS this is the case since the early days of prophecies by Joseph Smith.
Sad. 😮
Didn't the LDS church get fined for hiding 32 billion in assets a few years ago?
Just so we are clear, who did they hide it from?
@@cmr4622from the federal government and church members, if I’m not mistaken.
@@Dewey32 Not the federal gov't. They filed all the required paperwork. They were fined because it wasn't clear to the market (investors) that the church had a controlling interest in all the shell companies over a certain size of holdings. You could make a case that it was hidden from the members as a subset of the market overall.
@@cmr4622aka, the church knowingly committed fraud for two decades.
@@cmr4622 I see you spreading a lot of misinformation in your replies. The Church did not file all the required paperwork. That's what the settlement with the SEC is about.
Apparently, the Mormon church is its own favorite charity.
When will humanity wake up and realize any religion is a grift... It's the pointing spider man meme.... Just different superheroes.
There is no problem with churches that handle their financial things in a proper, decent and transparent way.
Ohhh man I hope this is true!! Back in 2014 my husband and I tried to adopt through the Mormon church. We had submitted all our financials, paperwork and then paid for the online classes. Once we finished the classes (5 months later) we went in for our interviews and then had our home study scheduled. Thirty min before the social worker was supposed to come to our home for the home study I got a phone call saying my husband and I needed to come in to their office instead. This took place in Centerville Ut btw. So we went to their office and they sat us down saying they couldn’t move forward with helping us to adopt (we had no kids at the time and I can’t get pregnant) because of my debt to income ratio. I had a ton of student debt at the time. Needless to say we were shocked. I wish soooo bad I could go back to that meeting and say “fine, no problem. Then give me back all my tithing donations.” Ugh, it makes me sick every time I think about that meeting… mainly because they Knew of my student debt, they knew all our financials… that was thee first thing we had to submit to move forward. It was such a dishonest/shady thing to do to us. I wish I would have left the church that day. The silver lining is that in 2021 we happily adopted a little baby boy (who has Down syndrome) through Lutheran Family Services in Colorado where we lived at the time. I do not believe for one second that the LDS church is honest with tithing donations. The amount of money they receive monthly could easily end child hunger in all 50 states. Even though my husband is still a member I have begged him to stop giving money to the church. They are good with money!! Give it to small charities where we live who actually need it!!
I’m so sorry that is awful and super shady. Congratulations on your beautiful boy ❤️
Lawyer here: it seems to me a big problem for plaintiffs is distinguishing between those who would have paid tithing notwithstanding the fraudulent claims (if such claims can be established) and narrowing which portion of contributions would have been omitted but but for those claims. I’m happy to provide sharp commentary on these issues as a seasoned white collar criminal defense lawyer from a top 10 law school and national law firm.
That is a very good point. I wondered that myself on class certification and how it may limit things.
@@reddish22exactly right. Each putative class member will have his or her own calculus for what they would have paid the church but for the alleged fraud. Many would have paid tithing notwithstanding what was said about the mall due to overriding religious considerations. It seems to me a stretch that a faithful Mormon would not have paid their tithing even if they knew about the alleged fraud. Simply put, the mall is a very small consideration for a faithful Mormon. It’s only a post Mormon who thinks that’s a big deal.
Subject to the law suit, I think it would be great to expose the LDS church in finding out what they really do with the tiling money.
It would show the members that they are money, hungry, and really not helping the people in need of help. Yes it takes some money and provide food once months or week for the needy, but that’s only peanuts what they take and the money they make in trading on the stock market and other means by investing in properties, etc.
Of course, we all know Jesus was about the money, ROI, and a lavish mall with a Ralph Lauren and a Coach outlet.
For all the money collected the church is very very wealthy . No accountability as to where that money goes except for worthless temples and community churches. Worthless temples because they are not open for all members. Yet with all the wealth, there are no lds hospitals or charitable institutions. Maybe BYU tuition free school. But for the most part the members have no voice on how that money is spent.
BYU isn't free either. I had to pay to go there.
Also they buy up an ungodly amount of land businesses and make an ungodly amount of profit. They 100% are NOT a charitable organization. Walmart is more charitable than the LDS church
cough up the money or u cant b saved n become a god... shameful taking advantage of gullible ppl 4 decades,,,
Thank you for this! I’ve already contacted the law firm and signed up for the newsletter they provide.
I called church hq to get receipts of all tithing I had ever donated. They said they had NO RECORD of me paying tithing. I asked them how I was able to get a temple recommend…I still can’t get a straight answer
😮😢
@DirtmopAZ Hey Dirtmop, Church headquarters doesn't have records, recipients or anything about individuals tithing payments. That would be found in your ward. Talk to the ward clerk. You didn't have to go to church headquarters. You just had to go talk to the ward clerk. Remember Tithing Settlement?? It's done with the bishop or they mail it to you with all that information. Why do villages keep loosing their idiots???
@@Annie-ll2jp For tax reasons there must be documentation on different levels. So probably, they lied about this.
when I was growing uP in the Lee/Eldrige ward one of the ward clerks was caught using thithes to pay for his 2nd wife and family...haha 😅
If you sing in the Mormaon Tabernacle Choir as I did for 10 years, you are presented to all audiences as a volunteer... except you can't be a member of the choir unless you are a full tithe payer. Does that not mean we paid to sing in the choir and were not volunteers at all ! I would love that tithing money returned.
Not only do I want my tithing back, I also want the $250,000 dollars that the leaders FORCED my father to hand over which was my inheritance! The leaders hoodwinked my father and threatened his membership status if he didn’t write a check which they “claimed” would be for a marriage campaign in California! Found out that the money never went toward that. Also I want the money from the life insurance policy they took out on my father without asking my parents prior and then hastily collected on the week after he passed! That was $750k. There’s no way this church is not for profit when they capitalize on members for political gain and profiting when the members die. I WANT my life back…I was molested by a Navajo exchange student when I was 7 that was sent to our home in the early 80’s, I was molested by our bishop when I was ten years old and by another bishop when I was 14. I was abused by the man I married for 17 years even after going to church leaders multiple times and told to go home and obey and they assured me they would handle him. Instead the abuse escalated. The church did nothing to protect my daughters when they went in and told them that their father was sexually abusing them as well.
🇨🇦CAN THIS LAWSUIT INCLUDE CANADA?🇨🇦 A BILLION DOLLARS WAS SUCKED FROM CANADA TO UTAH.🇨🇦
Yes, over $1B dollars has so far been taken out of the country through a loophole and put into BYU. Interest from that was taken to help build the large mall in SLC. along with other projects. So in reality, our money is actually being used to help build up Utah and the surrounding area when we could really use it here. We should actually be lobbying our own government to close that loophole so no more money can leave the country, but that still doesn't take away from the dishonest behaviour of the mormon leadership.
@@SharonTaylor-g5l Yes, the spiritual damage will even be much higher than all financial fraud combined.
The old fruits of wicked masonry can be harvested once again. 😢😢😢
The Bible says, "The love of money is the root of all evil." The Mormon church has a whole lotta love.
[Disclosure: I'm an atheist, but I agree with a whole lotta what Jesus allegedly said.]
Not LDS, but I live in Gilbert, Arizona so many of my neighbors are (and wonderful people). This reminds me of the Praise The Lord scandal with Jim Baaker. There is a fiduciary responsibility for a non-profit organization to spend money in accordance with the goals of the organization. This is similar to the Catholic Church that continues to face questions about the transparency of its finances. Why do churches engage in secular money-making? I think Jesus would be flipping some tables over this.
How can a church that has so many business holdings be able to be exempt from tax> It is clear the church is a business and should be treated as such
I paid tithing on gross income for three decades. I want it back.
If it's in Utah, it's going to be rough. Judges who are LDS should recuse themselves but that doesn't mean they will...sadly...
A judge who is an active member would more than likely not be able to oversee the case as that would be a conflict of interest. Any judgement put forth would be easily thrown out in appeal.
@@codename495 Generally that’s true but have you seen Clarence Thomas?
My mom’s ward bishop “helped” members and lend them money to catch up on tithing and attend the temple. He was charging a steeply interest using tithing money, he would recover the money at months end and deposit but kept the interest for himself. The church (first presidency and presiding bishop) is doing the same, how come (if this account is accurate) the bishop was released from his calling, accused of fraud and excommunicated if he did not kept any of the tithing money?
I would like to see all tax exempt status by churchrs repealed, and then watch the collapse of faith.
I do not think that ANY of us are saying we regret paying tithing, necessarily, but it is what was done with our money that is the problem. Once I stopped paying $ to the Mormon church I did continue to donate monies, but it was to help families who's houses burned down, or who had parents die in an accident, or help disabled children at Eternal Anchor in Mexico, or help a family with a child living for 6 months in a hospital waiting for a heart, to help bury family members after a tragedy, to donate to my local food bank, or school. . . There are REAL needs out the that our money can go toward. We aren't saying we want to stop paying tithing, but it needs to stop just making the company larger.
Great reporting! Thanks to you all! 💜
As somebody who worked in banking for nearly 14 years and helped people establish business accounts, personal accounts, loans mortgages, construction loans, some business credit cards, and lines of credit, court order accounts, and etc. If you have a business account and you commingle your funds with your personal account, you’ve penetrated the insulation that you’re trying to create with your business account. I would very much argue that all the money the church has received is first and foremost tithing money or money donated via fast offerings which has doctrinal earmarks. Secondly, I would argue that since the funds have been commingled with tithing funds it is all tithing funds.
I have no problem with the LDS church having investments but tithing money and its earnings are still tithing money meant to be used for its doctrinal earmarks. If you want to go to people and ask for donations for investments fine. But, if you commingle them then you have a problem.
Commingle 😂
This is fascinating. Kudos to all of you for explaining it so well.
We want our families money back for the last 50 years with interest and penalties
Tithes used to support member food banks. Now they tell those people ro go to community food banks. No food orders from the Bishops storehouse. Tithes are paid under duress.
You are so right. We were told to pay our tithing first, above all else, and if we couldn't afford to buy food or pay our bills afterwards, we were to go to family and friends first and the church last. There is no way this practice is of Christ.
As a former bishop, you are to ask what resources the individual and/or family has. Second, you ask if there may be certain family members who may have the means to help. This is not to withhold funds from the Church to the member. Third,the ward RS President is asked to visit with the family and food needs. As a bishop, I used fast offering funds to assist with many members during the 2008 recession. These included paying mortgages, substance use treatment, utilities, medical bills, and many others. The members NEVER went without food. The RS always took food from the Bishops storehouse and filled the fridge, freezer, and pantry. Sometimes for several months. Furthermore, with the member in needs permission, I would ask other ward members with means to provide if they would like to provide additional funds to members in need. All were willing to do so. We were not a wealthy ward, but many assisted with funds when they could. I also served as the lead Bishop as part of a Welfare Committee of all the Bishops in the Stake. All the Bishops and the Stake President ensured that all the members needs were taken care of. This is how all Stakes work. To represent Bishops and other leaders as indignant, withholding and punitive is not only disingenuous,but a blatant falsehood and likely with additional malintent to misinform and mislead.
@@michaeladamson8240 I told my relief society president that I needed help finding a ride to the cancer clinic for a bone marrow biopsy. She said she didn't know of anyone and she had a yoga class to attend. The bishop also knows I have no surviving family except a father in hospice. He gave me a list of food banks and knows my car could not be registered because it failed emmissions. I have been a member over 50 years. This is the only time I asked for food assistance in at least 20 years.
@@michaeladamson8240 it may be that I was very new to this ward as I had only recently moved into the area. I'm a senior citizen and joined 52 years ago. I have no records against me. It's probably also the fact I live in las vegas and this area is known for transients however I own my home mortgage free. A also just won an injury lawsuit so I won't be needing any assistance for ever again. This ward just seemed so closed doors and cold and judgemental that I will no longer attend in this area.
@@michaeladamson8240 I also asked for nothing during the recession. Nothing at all. I did have a bad fall and broke my arm and shoulder and had to have the joint replaced. Last year 6 weeks in hospital, surgery and living alone at home. No phone calls for wellness checks. It's very click here. I recently settled an injury claim for nearly 1 million. Guess who won't be paying any tithes on that now.
It seems plausible that even the "commercial entities owned by the church" came from tithing in the past. It seems pretty arbitrary also that they make a distinction between tithing and money earned from investments of that tithing money.
Church reaps profits. Members invest via tithes unde4 duress due to expectations for membership, and imposed at a very early ade, but no members benefit from the profits.
The LDS church isn't doing it's duty, as God has set forth, to their members. The church has even said don't apply for food stamps "we will provide for you" provide what? They provide one or twwo weeks of food and that's it. The church has sold its farm, ranch and food processing thus cutting down drastically on its ability and willingness to provde for the poor as God has commanded.
If they didn't use tithing funds where did they get the money? Howard Hughes? If they invested tithing money, they still used the profits from that tithing money.