I've spent years explaining this in every video, and people still don’t get it. It’s pure marketing, but it works.Many people think that more pressure levels are better. As you said, the most important things are a good pressure curve, low activation force, and high maximum pressure force for better control. Recently, I tested the OnePlus Stylo 2 with 16k pressure levels, and it was a terrible pen in terms of pressure control. The OnePlus Stylo 1, with 'only' 4k levels, was much better. Great video and excellent explanation!
Thank you so much for the comment and for your channel - which I just subscribed to! It's great to hear you've been educating people on what is important about pressure.
Great work! As always. If I remember well, I made all graphics of a 2D game back in 2001 with 256 levels (with the entry level A5 (or A6) tablet, can't remember if the Wacom tablet's name was Volito or Graphire. Previous to Bamboo, in any case). Did all the concept art (mimicking traditional pencils), pixel art for UI and characters, avatars art, and textures. It felt perfect for me. Tho today I wouldn't want to use anything smaller/worse than an Intuos Pro L. If I am not wrong, regular Intuos (so, non pro) have 4096 levels. I knew those were more than enough, by having worked for so long at different companies and at home with 256, 512, 1k, 2k pen tablets, and all being kind of more than enough, specially from 2k. I remember having my own personal preference in 512+. But I would have never been able to demonstrate it scientifically like this :D. With all that said... These days I try to work (if the app allows it) with 16 bits per channel (no real need for 32 for my paintings), as it seems to me that the gradients and every thing behaves smoother like with more subtlety. Files tend to be much larger, but it seems to be worth it for me. More noticeable in apps like Affinity Photo on desktop, in which I really prefer not to work in 8bit. I guess brushes banding appear more in some softwares than others. I guess this would complicate the calculations a lot. But my experience is much smoother so. Even while most people work perfectly in 8bit in the usual PaintTool SAI, Krita or Clip Studio. Then, the mystery... surely software tricks, blur or other trick, but the experience in Clip Studio (8 bit only possibility) is super smooth and nice. In PhotoLine, it's a bit more noticeable when working in 8-bit (always when doing extreme transition/smooth shades tests, never really while normally painting; I might be too picky), but with some tricks I get brushes that behave perfectly as I want. I also really edit very heavily the curves of several dynamics, including pressure, to set my ideal brush behavior in each software. All this with a Wacom XL (2009. Wacom does not sell it since years, but keeps being sold on Amazon and other markets for 800-900 $! Almost the price it had initially). Which has 2k levels, if I am not wrong, and yet I find way more control (not just in pressure sensitivity) with it than with my Huion Kamvas 22 (display pen, and way much more recent tech). And pretty much happens when compared to most other tablets I tested (huion pen tablets, etc). I believe that for many more reasons than the pressure stuff. Edit: I use very large brushes for fast covering up a large canvas when starting a project for print that is going to have a big physical size and needs to print in 300dpi, or 240, or etc. A trick I often use, though, to work faster in that stage, is just work at a much lower resolution, then scale up once I am starting to go more into details, when you then rarely need so large brushes. I noticed though that PaintTool SAI 2.x allows HUGE canvases using 2k brushes, or larger, very smoothly in my machine (ryzen 3900X, 32gb, and only had a 1650 GPU when I did that test, but I believe SAI 2 is CPU, mostly). While the same test was impossible even, in other apps, or very laggy. I don't know how the developer (is one only person, I think) achieves it.
Thanks for the comment! I need to do more research on the popularity of >8 bits per channel it seems. I also need to spend time with SAI. Mostly I'm in CSP and Krita. Though I've started playing with FireAlpaca. It is kind of amazing how response FA is with these large brushes!
Great explanation. Unfortunately, the most important aspects of a drawing tablet can't be determined by looking at the specs and photos. You need to use the pen yourself to see if it works for you. My best experience was with Huion pens (Pen Tech 3.0 / 8k levels), but these tend to have a very jittery low-pressure response. Wacom Pro Pen 2 has better pressure but is too firm for me and I need to adjust the pressure curve more often. XP Pen's X3 Pro Smart stylus feels even more firm, and I had to cut the pressure curve almost in half for it to feel nice. So yeah, it's all about the first-hand experience and finding a combination of software & hardware that feels best to you.
:-) I was wondering about that! In the face of it there does seem to be something related going on. But my knowledge of sampling theory is rudimentary at best and I didn't want to make a claim it being related without being more sure. Could you elaborate this part "4K+ are nice for remapping if you prefer lower maximum force though." I'm not totally sure I am following.
@@thesevenpens Let's assume your pen reads max presssure at 400g - that means 0.2g resolution per sample for 2k resolution. But I prefer less force - for the same resolution 0.1g per sample would be required. But the sensor in the pen still registers the full range, no matte rwhat I'd set inthe driver - 0.1g/sample for a 400g sample range would be 4k hardware resolution. Basically you throuw half the range away to get better resolution in the part you're interested in - easier and more predictable to do than adjustable endpoints.
Do you have recommendation for $100 drawing tablet with good quality and value ? My old tablet sometimes not working now. I'm doing comic and illustration.
See this: docs.thesevenpens.com/drawtab/recommendations/pen-tablet-recommendations Right now I am really liking the Huion Frego M (L610) I've had a good experience with it and its pen.
Excellent analysis including coding your own test app. Your videos always provide great insight and education. I can see why you used the Intuos Pro Medium. I'm using the same tablet because of Wacom's high physical pressure range which provides greater sensitivity and control. I concluded a while back that I only care about the physical pressure range. 16K pressure levels is a marketing gimmick. Wacom's latest Pro Pen 3 has 8192 pressure levels vs. XP-Pen & Huion pens which have 16K pressure levels in their higher end products.
Within a week I plan to do an analysis of 30+ pens to examine their pressure ranges. My data collection is done and I think finally I'll be able to show a "landscape" of EMR pens and how well they perform with regard to pressure range.
Your content is fantastic! I wonder if I could translate this series into Chinese and share them on Bilibili? Please check your GMail for further information. Thanks~
I've spent years explaining this in every video, and people still don’t get it. It’s pure marketing, but it works.Many people think that more pressure levels are better. As you said, the most important things are a good pressure curve, low activation force, and high maximum pressure force for better control.
Recently, I tested the OnePlus Stylo 2 with 16k pressure levels, and it was a terrible pen in terms of pressure control. The OnePlus Stylo 1, with 'only' 4k levels, was much better.
Great video and excellent explanation!
Thank you so much for the comment and for your channel - which I just subscribed to! It's great to hear you've been educating people on what is important about pressure.
What a great video and excellent explanations!
I hope you make more review videos, especially of Pen Displays!
That would be great indeed. I'd love to see side by side comparison videos
Thank you! I will be trying to get several pen display videos out before the end of 2024.
Great work! As always. If I remember well, I made all graphics of a 2D game back in 2001 with 256 levels (with the entry level A5 (or A6) tablet, can't remember if the Wacom tablet's name was Volito or Graphire. Previous to Bamboo, in any case). Did all the concept art (mimicking traditional pencils), pixel art for UI and characters, avatars art, and textures. It felt perfect for me. Tho today I wouldn't want to use anything smaller/worse than an Intuos Pro L. If I am not wrong, regular Intuos (so, non pro) have 4096 levels. I knew those were more than enough, by having worked for so long at different companies and at home with 256, 512, 1k, 2k pen tablets, and all being kind of more than enough, specially from 2k. I remember having my own personal preference in 512+. But I would have never been able to demonstrate it scientifically like this :D.
With all that said... These days I try to work (if the app allows it) with 16 bits per channel (no real need for 32 for my paintings), as it seems to me that the gradients and every thing behaves smoother like with more subtlety. Files tend to be much larger, but it seems to be worth it for me. More noticeable in apps like Affinity Photo on desktop, in which I really prefer not to work in 8bit. I guess brushes banding appear more in some softwares than others. I guess this would complicate the calculations a lot. But my experience is much smoother so. Even while most people work perfectly in 8bit in the usual PaintTool SAI, Krita or Clip Studio. Then, the mystery... surely software tricks, blur or other trick, but the experience in Clip Studio (8 bit only possibility) is super smooth and nice. In PhotoLine, it's a bit more noticeable when working in 8-bit (always when doing extreme transition/smooth shades tests, never really while normally painting; I might be too picky), but with some tricks I get brushes that behave perfectly as I want. I also really edit very heavily the curves of several dynamics, including pressure, to set my ideal brush behavior in each software. All this with a Wacom XL (2009. Wacom does not sell it since years, but keeps being sold on Amazon and other markets for 800-900 $! Almost the price it had initially). Which has 2k levels, if I am not wrong, and yet I find way more control (not just in pressure sensitivity) with it than with my Huion Kamvas 22 (display pen, and way much more recent tech). And pretty much happens when compared to most other tablets I tested (huion pen tablets, etc). I believe that for many more reasons than the pressure stuff.
Edit: I use very large brushes for fast covering up a large canvas when starting a project for print that is going to have a big physical size and needs to print in 300dpi, or 240, or etc. A trick I often use, though, to work faster in that stage, is just work at a much lower resolution, then scale up once I am starting to go more into details, when you then rarely need so large brushes. I noticed though that PaintTool SAI 2.x allows HUGE canvases using 2k brushes, or larger, very smoothly in my machine (ryzen 3900X, 32gb, and only had a 1650 GPU when I did that test, but I believe SAI 2 is CPU, mostly). While the same test was impossible even, in other apps, or very laggy. I don't know how the developer (is one only person, I think) achieves it.
Thanks for the comment! I need to do more research on the popularity of >8 bits per channel it seems. I also need to spend time with SAI. Mostly I'm in CSP and Krita. Though I've started playing with FireAlpaca. It is kind of amazing how response FA is with these large brushes!
Great explanation. Unfortunately, the most important aspects of a drawing tablet can't be determined by looking at the specs and photos. You need to use the pen yourself to see if it works for you. My best experience was with Huion pens (Pen Tech 3.0 / 8k levels), but these tend to have a very jittery low-pressure response. Wacom Pro Pen 2 has better pressure but is too firm for me and I need to adjust the pressure curve more often. XP Pen's X3 Pro Smart stylus feels even more firm, and I had to cut the pressure curve almost in half for it to feel nice. So yeah, it's all about the first-hand experience and finding a combination of software & hardware that feels best to you.
I agree completely. In the end, what matters if is a pen works for the specific person using it.
For the brush size - did you just re-invent Nyquist's sampling theorem?
4K+ are nice for remapping if you prefer lower maximum force though.
:-) I was wondering about that! In the face of it there does seem to be something related going on. But my knowledge of sampling theory is rudimentary at best and I didn't want to make a claim it being related without being more sure. Could you elaborate this part "4K+ are nice for remapping if you prefer lower maximum force though." I'm not totally sure I am following.
@@thesevenpens Let's assume your pen reads max presssure at 400g - that means 0.2g resolution per sample for 2k resolution.
But I prefer less force - for the same resolution 0.1g per sample would be required. But the sensor in the pen still registers the full range, no matte rwhat I'd set inthe driver - 0.1g/sample for a 400g sample range would be 4k hardware resolution. Basically you throuw half the range away to get better resolution in the part you're interested in - easier and more predictable to do than adjustable endpoints.
Do you have recommendation for $100 drawing tablet with good quality and value ?
My old tablet sometimes not working now.
I'm doing comic and illustration.
See this: docs.thesevenpens.com/drawtab/recommendations/pen-tablet-recommendations
Right now I am really liking the Huion Frego M (L610) I've had a good experience with it and its pen.
Excellent analysis including coding your own test app. Your videos always provide great insight and education.
I can see why you used the Intuos Pro Medium. I'm using the same tablet because of Wacom's high physical pressure range which provides greater sensitivity and control. I concluded a while back that I only care about the physical pressure range. 16K pressure levels is a marketing gimmick. Wacom's latest Pro Pen 3 has 8192 pressure levels vs. XP-Pen & Huion pens which have 16K pressure levels in their higher end products.
Within a week I plan to do an analysis of 30+ pens to examine their pressure ranges. My data collection is done and I think finally I'll be able to show a "landscape" of EMR pens and how well they perform with regard to pressure range.
Wow, looking forward to that!
Your content is fantastic! I wonder if I could translate this series into Chinese and share them on Bilibili? Please check your GMail for further information. Thanks~