Is the "echoification" just manually running a square wave of the same note as the lead through the sample "channel", or did you write a routine to read the actual output of the SID voice to feed back in as the echo?
How the hell did people pre-internet era find these tricks and glitches in chips, it's just beyond me.. As a kid had a C64 in the mid 90s without internet access (very late, I know, but still, first computer I ever owned), and I was happy If I could write something working in Basic lol. Mind blowing, and hats of to all people involved. It takes not just to be a talented musician but an expert programmer.
It is crazy to think Jeroen Tel composed Ubi-Sound in an actual castle in France. He was 17. He was hired as a "king of France" apparently. By the way, he is a Dutch music composer.
True, but fair... I was there with the friend back then and later producer of Assassin's Creed and shit Marc Albinet and the lot... We had something going no-one understood... I still see it as an adventure no-one would ever be able to understand, and even to this day, that wicked wild time will never really fade for what it was and is, although life has a tendency to delete the time-frame from the equation, but... in the end, everything is connected! It did have meaning... and that's all that counts. =) I will Tel you that! =D
@@JeroenTel I understand you very well, I had a similar experience ! At 17 i worked for the first french magazine about videogames "Tilt" & making demos/games. What a crazy time !!!
Looking at the Echofied's behaviour in a debugger's memory map is fascinating. It exploits how the 3rd voice's output can be read and has a code buffer this before being output as a DIGI to generate an echo. This code isn't specially integrated into the songs themselves or something (which seem to be just regular PSIDs). It just runs alongside all the songs sampling the 3rd voice of the SID. So it really is the 6581 itself Echofied.
and apparently, at the time where the voice 3 output's being sent to the "dac", the voice 3 still hasn't been filtered, so it's also a pure pulse wave rather than the filtered one from the final voice 3 output.
The C64 has a sound chip that had 3 voices and produces four types of wave forms: square, triangle, sawtooth, and noise. You can assign one type of wave form to each voice and you can change the wave form in any moment, and you can do cool effects changing quickly the wave form
I think, it specifically has 3 24-bit phase accumulators/8-bit counters with 8-bit output to a DAC (1 for each voice) and some switches controlling routing some logic gates and clearing the phase accumulator contents. I am convinced that somebody can recreate the SID sound generation part using 74 and 4000 series logic chips.
I haven't ever heard these tracks before, but it's amazing that just after hearing the first few seconds of 3:49 I was immediately able to tell it was Jeroen Tel. The guy's definitely got a signature sound and it sounds so good.
Indeed. Same with Tim Follin's arpeggios and Rob Hubbard's super hardware pushing. Jeroen Tel really was a fan of those PWM/square waves for his C64 composotions.
So fucking great, really marvellous! I dont usually write such comments, but I still keep coming here from time to time to listen to this wonderful creation and it always keeps my soul warm in these challenging times. Thanks for the osciloscope visualisation, man, and of course thanks to Maniacs of Noise - for the great demo that it is!
Geir is the man... he know the sid inside-out-like-no-others know it... these things are done because he is simply total insane in his membrane of sid know-how... triangles and states and ofsets of the actual chip... dude you are awesome... and your own composions are on pair with the best there ever were or will ever be.
Agreed. Geir invited me to Funcom back in 1994 to work on the Disney classic Pocahontas... because he HAD to go into the army in Norway, and he saved my ass from my studio boss (irony mode on)... and I immediately said "yes"... and traveled all the way to Norway... whilst there, met Thomas Egeskov Petersen aka Laxity and on the incredible phone-line got in touch with Thomas Mogensen aka DRAX all the time because we were allowed to keep our hobbies going whilst doing the soundtracks... story might get too long here... but wild times! And incredible to say the least how the world keeps being "a small world after all"... I'm proud of whoever is in MoN right now, and all for the right reasons...
21:52 Caught in the Middle by DRAX is my personal favourite of this excellent selection. A lot of tunes try to break the boundaries, but this tune accepts those boundaries and turns them into strengths.
@@JeroenTel Heh, never would I thought I would get a reply from Mr. Jeroen Tel himself. I would like to say your musical work is excellent and astounding for the software limitations you had to deal with! On an unrelated note, do you happen to know how to contact Mr. Jogeir Liljedahl? I've done some remixes of his work but I also want him to see it and yknow make sure credit is given and stuff
A Big one, expecially (for my taste) the first track and the "Drax" ones (the last is OUTSTANDING). True Sid Maestros. It sounds a bit too gritty, rough and "Lo fi" (perhaps due to the sampled, unstable pulse waves in the fourth channel).
(Ubi-sound) Made at a castle in France (yes, an actual castle)... I was 17 when I composed it at that castle... It was the promo track for Ubisoft. They hired me to live there as "a king in France"... oh the backstories!... :-D
I think this demo disk is the best for 6581. Marvellous sounds and arrangments... the compositors are great artists and coders...they are demonstrated the c64 is a fabulous computer, best of 8 bits...and it s incedible the c64 sid is best than paula of amiga in sounchip...
Sometimes when i make pieces with MSSIAH MIDI SID, happens this "echofied" effect. It's a bug of SID chip. The best bug ever, and correcting it may be awful :)
Jeroen Tel & Drax... I am curious how you got inspired to create those catchy-lovely songs! - Jeroen Tel & DRAX - "Power House" intro pattern is genious!!!
I am very far from being a fan of nice music (it makes me depressed because things like Neurosis makes me happy, maybe I'm wired the other way around) but I can remember how I was nailed to the machine listening to this flat-out awesomeness for a good hour, looping, when it was released. Full respect goes to everyone involved and especially to Geir who is the man behind the byte wizardry here, to my knowledge. That level of C64 music coding is just off the goddamn starmap!
Interesting channel manipulation in ubi-sound- Channel 1 hard sync with channel 3, and channel 2 ring modulation. Looks interesting and sounds wacky. also, for some reason, Crosswords doesn't play correctly on an NTSC C64, in the video from 17:09 to 17:30. Probably has something to do with the echo routine conflicting with the differences in speeds between PAL and NTSC. if only there was a hack that slowed down the core speed of the C64 to match PAL but didn't affect the output of the VIC-II chip.
If people haven't started doing this with the Gameboy (changing the 3-bit stereo volume registers at the rate of the horizontal sync to play back audio samples and/or echo effect,) then they need to start doing it. I know there's LSDJ, but I want to hear tunes that break the limits of the hardware like the SID does. I'm sure a similar version of the sample playback driver for the C64 could be implemented for the Gameboy, though with less precise frequency control.
Pokemon yellow used some trickery with channel 3 to playback pikachu's voice samples, and I think Perfect Dark did something similar (haven't played PD on gameboy yet). These implementations take up an incredible amount of processor time though, so maybe someone can figure out a better way
id be intrigued to see a SID chip mod that exposes all of the operations to the cpu of the c64 if asked for, and then see what kind of stuff the c64 can pull off. Really want to see it.
Hi Geir. I don't know if you'll read this, but I really appreciate your musical work, you are talented and have an impressive ability with the SID. Mr. Tel commented here about your effort to achieve the echo. I discovered your chip tunes thanks to the oscilloscope view of one of your songs on this channel once, and today I have in my playlist several of your tunes such as Depressed, Melodious, Blue Mazda, Artillery Credits, Artillery, Ansious, Smile to the Sky, Mid July, A New Beginning, Echofied itself, among others. I heard about some of your controversies about taking down videos, but it was through one of them that I had the pleasure of discovering your music. I respect your decision on this. Despite the conflicts, I'm sorry that some people still offend you for that, don't worry about it. Everyone should be respected, including you, a great composer of the old school. Congrats on the work and thanks for the happy, sad, complex, beautiful and deep chiptunes!👊🇧🇷🎶 This visualization of Oro Incenso is dope, isn't it?
One of the things I like most about your style are those "heavy drums" on the first channel 2:18, especially notable in the Amiga AHX tunes, such as A New Beginning.
It's a glitch when you change the SID chip volume very fast to make samples. It's literally what samples are. In this case it's not using samples, it's just copying data from the third channel.
How are there FOUR synth channels? The SID as far as I know only has 3 channels for synthesis and the fourth channel is for 4 bit samples, so HOW in the world is that channel playing synthesis like the other 3 channels do?
It's all the tricks you can do with the hardware, if I'm not mistaken, it's using the cpu to add another channel and mixing them together to get 4 of them, the Amiga could do the same thing from 4 channels to 8 channels and many games on the Amiga did use 7 channels for title screen music and so on.
@@Dan-TechAndMusic Oh right, I didn't know that, thanks for informing me, still, even to this day, that sid chip impresses me with it's sounds and the only real flaw is that it was only 3 channels, if it was 4 like the Amiga or even 5 like the Nes, that would do wonders for music on the C64 whiles also allowing games to have music and sound fx for more games, now if only other 8-bit systems at the time had that level of sound.
@@Dan-TechAndMusic the real technical explanation for the bug is that the zero position is offset a bit, so changing the master volume on the sid chip actually changes where it is. this is why when you jump the master volume on the sid chip from 0 to 15 or back, there's a loud click. Certain other actions can change the offset as well. You do it fast enough, and these clicks become a sample you can hear. A bit of distortion is added to the other three channels to do this, but using the same principle as an arpeggio, you can't detect that the volume is being manipulated during playback. It's much more convincing then said arpeggio effect. And said said, there's a register that has the output of voice 3. Usually this is used for "true" random numbers by setting channel 3 to noise waveform at max frequency and infinite sustain, with the voices sound output disabled. (even if mute, it still internally creates the noise) Since this actually does't work during sound playback using the third channel, this is generally used to pregenerate them, unless the application doesn't need music. But if you feed this output back into the master volume register with a delay... this happens.
Was this played on an original SID-Chip? I played the sid of "Ubi Sound" in Winamp, but it sounds very dead and sad compared to the sound in this video. What sid-players can you recommend for Windows?
@@GGVIC25 Plugin is called "SID Player" or in_sidious.dll. I had the wrong sid first. It was missing the echo of the 4th channel. The right one is the album-version (all songs in one sid). I also had to update to the latest version of the plugin.
How does the buffering of the third oscillator work? By reading the register you could also use to get random numbers, you just get the waveform before it's processed by the envelope generator.
STALE MEME Its reading the state of the 3rd Channel, and replaying it with a delay to get a Echo-ish effect... So...yes, but they're being generated on the fly...
STALE MEME The SID has a Register that spits out a 8-bit value of whatever state the 3rd Oscillator is in. Read from there, buffer it, replay it.... Fun fact: This is the same Register where 'random' numbers come from xD
This trick only really worked on the 6581, I honestly have no idea how to explain how it works but I do know it doesn't really work on the 8580 version of the SID
@@cfothough on 6581 if you changed the volume ($d418) the sid chip made a click sound. this is a bug what was fixed in 8580, but can be used to play digi sound samples in 4 bit quality. (fix me if i'm wrong) note: digi sound replay routines need CIA timing, the vblank is not enough.
I used to wonder how a man that sounded like me ended up in the cassette recorder when I recorded my voice on a tape and played it back...then I grew up and learned about physics...my father used to wonder how an Audio CD player used to work...he could understand writing binary codes of the musical scale and notes and tempo and rhythm but how does the CD player know the difference between Bananarama's "Cruel Summer" song, and Ace Of Base's "Cruel Summer" song...PCM is the key here...instead of looking at the piano/synthesizer keyboard to record the sound...think of what happens when you use the digital multimeter in electrical engineering class to measure the voltage generated by the microphone coil as it is moved by sound vibrations near a permanent magnetic field...you would get a number on the multimeter's screen which is correlated to the positive or negative sound pressure displacement at the time you measured it...do this about 44,100 times a second and have 65536 possible voltage levels to write down with two microphones facing different areas in the studio...and you did something like what the cassette recorder did...made a analogy of the representations of the sound pressures impinging on the microphone coil. With digital sound recording...it is less sensitive to imperfections in the recording media...if you spill coffee on an index card with an important phone number on it written with a waterproof ink...it ends up stained and unevenly colored...but you should still be able to read the phone number correctly. With analog recording, it's more like a photograph of the picture of the person that you are about to call...the coffee stain becomes mixed with the image you want, and becomes part of the reproduced signal from that point on. And, thanks to computers, simple logic circuits can operate much faster with more predictable results by either conducting at all the way on, or all the way off and there is more linearity, then an amplifier where an error in the smallest change can do damage too. That is how a 1-bit DAC works...if you want fully positive voltage with the speaker cone pushed all the way out, switch the positive voltage on and leave it there. If you want full negative voltage, do not switch on the voltage. If you want silence, simply switch on and off the voltage much faster than a speaker cone is able to move and the cone will stay in the center. To have the cone at half positive voltage, switch on and off the voltage rapidly so that 75% of the time you are doing this...the full voltage is applied. This is called pulse-width-modulation...which works the same way as your home heating boiler works on a cold but not too cool day.
the 4th channel was something unintended by commodore. it's not produced like the 3 main channels, what happens with this one is that, the master volume control of the old 6581 version of the sid chip produced a clicking sound when the volume was changed. so, those composers manipulated those clicks to make it play pcm samples, or as shown here, grab the output of the 3rd voice and then make an echo.
On the original SID chip there was a bug that would cause noise when you adjusted the volume on one of the channels. This noise can be modulated to give you a primitive PWM channel.
IF I publish it there, which is the plan, but a year-to-year plan, with background life going on... likely on our/my SoundCloud page. (not a promise, but a likelihood). =)
Probably using the volume register trick normally used for samples but no reason it couldnt be used for another channel of pulse wave - not exactly hard to generate those in code.
It's exploiting a quirk of the third voice. I don't understand quite what's going on, but the extra voice is where the "echofied" in the video title comes from. It's essentially tricking the third channel into playing a pulse wave on top of the waveform it's meant to be playing. That's the reason the third channel sounds a little... crunchy. Mind you, take that with a huge grain of salt. I haven't looked online to get the details and that's just what I've inferred from some of the comments. The volume register might be involved, but I understand that the third channel is being rapidly sampled as part of what's going on.
![Tim Follin - "Ghouls 'n' Ghosts (C64)" Soundtrack [Oscilloscope View]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wz36JWHTk-A/mqdefault.jpg)
![Tim Follin - "Ghouls 'n' Ghosts (C64)" Soundtrack [Oscilloscope View]](/img/tr.png)
![Jeroen Tel & Reyn Ouwehand - "Rubicon (C64)" Full Soundtrack [Oscilloscope View]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Glyq91vRzeI/mqdefault.jpg)
This is a true "why? Because you can!" kinda thing. XD
Jeroen this collection is truly awesome!! this makes me come to mind weird ideas about how to get c64 gear. Those songs sounds really great
You should request one of your C64 music tracks.
Is the "echoification" just manually running a square wave of the same note as the lead through the sample "channel", or did you write a routine to read the actual output of the SID voice to feed back in as the echo?
@@nialltracey2599 I think it reads the 3 channel output because the samples channel always copies the third channel.
Love your work man :)
How the hell did people pre-internet era find these tricks and glitches in chips, it's just beyond me.. As a kid had a C64 in the mid 90s without internet access (very late, I know, but still, first computer I ever owned), and I was happy If I could write something working in Basic lol. Mind blowing, and hats of to all people involved. It takes not just to be a talented musician but an expert programmer.
It takes both.
@@sam_64 Exactly. That's what was inplied here.
Exactly that.
RTFM comes to mind. XD
We read manuals and documentations, experimented with the stuff and learned electronics to understand the workings.
It is crazy to think Jeroen Tel composed Ubi-Sound in an actual castle in France. He was 17. He was hired as a "king of France" apparently. By the way, he is a Dutch music composer.
True, but fair... I was there with the friend back then and later producer of Assassin's Creed and shit Marc Albinet and the lot... We had something going no-one understood... I still see it as an adventure no-one would ever be able to understand, and even to this day, that wicked wild time will never really fade for what it was and is, although life has a tendency to delete the time-frame from the equation, but... in the end, everything is connected! It did have meaning... and that's all that counts. =) I will Tel you that! =D
@@JeroenTel that's fucking awesome man
@@JeroenTel finding small gem stories like this in youtube comment section is so wonderful
@@CrazyGaming-ig6qq To actually be in that story was quite wonderful at such a young age! (I was only 17). =)
@@JeroenTel I understand you very well, I had a similar experience ! At 17 i worked for the first french magazine about videogames "Tilt" & making demos/games. What a crazy time !!!
Looking at the Echofied's behaviour in a debugger's memory map is fascinating. It exploits how the 3rd voice's output can be read and has a code buffer this before being output as a DIGI to generate an echo. This code isn't specially integrated into the songs themselves or something (which seem to be just regular PSIDs). It just runs alongside all the songs sampling the 3rd voice of the SID. So it really is the 6581 itself Echofied.
So that's why the echo sounds Digitized O_o Amazing stuff :)
and apparently, at the time where the voice 3 output's being sent to the "dac", the voice 3 still hasn't been filtered, so it's also a pure pulse wave rather than the filtered one from the final voice 3 output.
he protecc
he attacc
he visualised a sick tracc
but most importantly
this video is bacc
and you are a hak
it is genuinely embarrassing that this may just be the most liked comment I've ever left on youtube
It's music like this that inspires me to be a game composer.
I hope you are doing well... ;-)
@@JeroenTel It's going VERY well, actually! I just received some great news that I am probably under contractual agreement not to talk about!
@@TotallyGoodatGames congrats, man! ^^
@@JeroenTel When do you come back to the industry, Mr. Tel ? I would buy your indie games ^^
@@iwao72 I never would stop. When a good commission comes my way I would accept. 👌
i love maniacs of noise. both this one and firing up are so amazing and stays interesting even tho both are over 20 min.
'E2
@@nocando1783 what
The C64 was WAAAY past my time, but my God. This music is truly delightful. Not sure how music on the C64 works, but this is amazing to me.
The C64 has a sound chip that had 3 voices and produces four types of wave forms: square, triangle, sawtooth, and noise. You can assign one type of wave form to each voice and you can change the wave form in any moment, and you can do cool effects changing quickly the wave form
It's sound is a digitally controlled analogue synthesizer on a chip. Look up subtractive synthesis and you'll get an idea.
I think, it specifically has 3 24-bit phase accumulators/8-bit counters with 8-bit output to a DAC (1 for each voice) and some switches controlling routing some logic gates and clearing the phase accumulator contents.
I am convinced that somebody can recreate the SID sound generation part using 74 and 4000 series logic chips.
@@Ich_liebe_brezeln Also there are low pass and high pass filters.
@@Ich_liebe_brezeln The fourth "channel" is volume.
Resolution is one of the greatest compositions SID was ever blessed to play
Caught in the middle is also very beautiful
I haven't ever heard these tracks before, but it's amazing that just after hearing the first few seconds of 3:49 I was immediately able to tell it was Jeroen Tel.
The guy's definitely got a signature sound and it sounds so good.
Indeed.
Same with Tim Follin's arpeggios and Rob Hubbard's super hardware pushing.
Jeroen Tel really was a fan of those PWM/square waves for his C64 composotions.
Thanks! 🙏
“Caught in the Middle” is absolutely amazing.
As well as Resolution
So fucking great, really marvellous! I dont usually write such comments, but I still keep coming here from time to time to listen to this wonderful creation and it always keeps my soul warm in these challenging times. Thanks for the osciloscope visualisation, man, and of course thanks to Maniacs of Noise - for the great demo that it is!
Downloaded this video in case it goes down again
Probably best SID soundtrack I've heard... I love this so much
"No you can't make super complex tunes on an almost 40-year-old chip!"
Maniacs of Noise: *haha* *sid* *goes* *blip* *bloop* *ziing*
True, eh?
Geir is the man... he know the sid inside-out-like-no-others know it... these things are done because he is simply total insane in his membrane of sid know-how... triangles and states and ofsets of the actual chip... dude you are awesome... and your own composions are on pair with the best there ever were or will ever be.
Agreed. Geir invited me to Funcom back in 1994 to work on the Disney classic Pocahontas... because he HAD to go into the army in Norway, and he saved my ass from my studio boss (irony mode on)... and I immediately said "yes"... and traveled all the way to Norway... whilst there, met Thomas Egeskov Petersen aka Laxity and on the incredible phone-line got in touch with Thomas Mogensen aka DRAX all the time because we were allowed to keep our hobbies going whilst doing the soundtracks... story might get too long here... but wild times! And incredible to say the least how the world keeps being "a small world after all"... I'm proud of whoever is in MoN right now, and all for the right reasons...
@@JeroenTel your compositions are amazing
@@sam_64 Thank you.
@@sam_64 Got any suggestions for some to look into?
@@greatcanadianmoose3965 tintin on the moon and turbo outrun
21:52 Caught in the Middle by DRAX is my personal favourite of this excellent selection. A lot of tunes try to break the boundaries, but this tune accepts those boundaries and turns them into strengths.
Which is a roundabout way of saying, I like the way it flows. 😎
Haha. Yeah. It’s sounds melodic and happy at same time.
I've been listening to this for months now, and I only just realized it's "Echofied" not "Echofield", I feel stupid now lol
Heh, same!
@@TheMuzykant Haha! The mind plays tricks on you. Echofied.
@@JeroenTel Heh, never would I thought I would get a reply from Mr. Jeroen Tel himself. I would like to say your musical work is excellent and astounding for the software limitations you had to deal with!
On an unrelated note, do you happen to know how to contact Mr. Jogeir Liljedahl? I've done some remixes of his work but I also want him to see it and yknow make sure credit is given and stuff
@@JeroenTel Oh, hi JT!
@@Train115 Yo yo ! 🌟
Man... that Oro Incenso cover is great
Better than the original, in my opinion. Much deeper bass.
@@quadpad_music yes
Jogeir did a incredible job in the original but, Tjelta perfected it.
This bundle makes me accend
A Big one, expecially (for my taste) the first track and the "Drax" ones (the last is OUTSTANDING). True Sid Maestros. It sounds a bit too gritty, rough and "Lo fi" (perhaps due to the sampled, unstable pulse waves in the fourth channel).
I fell in love in this music :D This is best C-64 compilation i have ever listened to :) Respects for SID MASTERS
ITS BACK!
greatest music ive heard on the c64
Wow! Oro Incenso in SID! Wow!!!
Jeroen I never heard this one - its great! - and also holy crap never knew you lads figured out how to make a damn C64 effects bus. Brilliant!
Hey Neil! Long time, man! All Geir's effort on the "echo" channel. ✨
Crosswords is so good...
holy shit this is mind blowing
LITTERALY mindblowing
xd
(Ubi-sound) Made at a castle in France (yes, an actual castle)... I was 17 when I composed it at that castle... It was the promo track for Ubisoft. They hired me to live there as "a king in France"... oh the backstories!... :-D
yeet
hello m8 sub2pewds
yote
MoN were my favourite as a child, and I'm so glad they're still around
Really happy to hear it! 🙏
@@JeroenTel Ever since I saw "M-m-m-music by Maniacs of Noise" roll in on Turbo Outrun :)
@@pigpenpete O-O-O-Outrun ! (Drumfill). 😆
Some of the best C64 music ever written, right there. Enjoying every minute of it. Thanks for uploading.
I could fall asleep to this. It's so good I could, btw.
I still love this one so much.
damn, "Resolution" is so great.
I think this demo disk is the best for 6581. Marvellous sounds and arrangments... the compositors are great artists and coders...they are demonstrated the c64 is a fabulous computer, best of 8 bits...and it s incedible the c64 sid is best than paula of amiga in sounchip...
That sound at 17:08 is so cool, those drums. I heard a version of that tune without the echo somewhere ... it sounds really weird.
This is awesome!, i grew up whit the C64, the music the sid chip inspired me to make music whit synths to. still loving c64 still making tunes :D
Caught In the Middle is genius
Thanks
@@thomasmogensen8939 DRAX!! You're a legend for all your brilliant work :D
Sometimes when i make pieces with MSSIAH MIDI SID, happens this "echofied" effect. It's a bug of SID chip. The best bug ever, and correcting it may be awful :)
Jeroen Tel & Drax... I am curious how you got inspired to create those catchy-lovely songs! - Jeroen Tel & DRAX - "Power House" intro pattern is genious!!!
I actually composed it in Renoise on PC first and I shared it with DRAX, who covered it on the C64. 🛸
So you did compose it with the SID chips technical capabilities in mind?
AMAZING!!!
I am very far from being a fan of nice music (it makes me depressed because things like Neurosis makes me happy, maybe I'm wired the other way around) but I can remember how I was nailed to the machine listening to this flat-out awesomeness for a good hour, looping, when it was released. Full respect goes to everyone involved and especially to Geir who is the man behind the byte wizardry here, to my knowledge. That level of C64 music coding is just off the goddamn starmap!
this goes hard
Delicious C64 tunage! NOMNOMNOM!
wow
Yeet
U yeety tweety boi
Interesting channel manipulation in ubi-sound-
Channel 1 hard sync with channel 3, and channel 2 ring modulation.
Looks interesting and sounds wacky.
also, for some reason, Crosswords doesn't play correctly on an NTSC C64, in the video from 17:09 to 17:30. Probably has something to do with the echo routine conflicting with the differences in speeds between PAL and NTSC.
if only there was a hack that slowed down the core speed of the C64 to match PAL but didn't affect the output of the VIC-II chip.
E P I C
If people haven't started doing this with the Gameboy (changing the 3-bit stereo volume registers at the rate of the horizontal sync to play back audio samples and/or echo effect,) then they need to start doing it. I know there's LSDJ, but I want to hear tunes that break the limits of the hardware like the SID does.
I'm sure a similar version of the sample playback driver for the C64 could be implemented for the Gameboy, though with less precise frequency control.
As far as I remember, there was a Hero Turtles Game saying "Pizza Time!" when you paused it.
Pokemon yellow used some trickery with channel 3 to playback pikachu's voice samples, and I think Perfect Dark did something similar (haven't played PD on gameboy yet). These implementations take up an incredible amount of processor time though, so maybe someone can figure out a better way
Just based off of that bassline, I'd say Jeroen did that :)
id be intrigued to see a SID chip mod that exposes all of the operations to the cpu of the c64 if asked for, and then see what kind of stuff the c64 can pull off. Really want to see it.
Whoop whoop
Hi Geir. I don't know if you'll read this, but I really appreciate your musical work, you are talented and have an impressive ability with the SID. Mr. Tel commented here about your effort to achieve the echo. I discovered your chip tunes thanks to the oscilloscope view of one of your songs on this channel once, and today I have in my playlist several of your tunes such as Depressed, Melodious, Blue Mazda, Artillery Credits, Artillery, Ansious, Smile to the Sky, Mid July, A New Beginning, Echofied itself, among others.
I heard about some of your controversies about taking down videos, but it was through one of them that I had the pleasure of discovering your music. I respect your decision on this. Despite the conflicts, I'm sorry that some people still offend you for that, don't worry about it. Everyone should be respected, including you, a great composer of the old school. Congrats on the work and thanks for the happy, sad, complex, beautiful and deep chiptunes!👊🇧🇷🎶 This visualization of Oro Incenso is dope, isn't it?
One of the things I like most about your style are those "heavy drums" on the first channel 2:18, especially notable in the Amiga AHX tunes, such as A New Beginning.
Whooop
Very cool!
Wow this sounds sooo good UA-cam can't even process this video for me lol~ xD
Chiptune ❤️
gaming
Oh yeah, this is chiptune
Jogier borrowed this?
SID tunes!
people are so cool
This must be some of the best SID music out there! If not please post me a link for something that tops this.
This ain't happy h Christmas but I'm not complaining.
Jeoren Tel vs Tim Follin (and the guy whose name sounds like Gandolf, can't forget him)
gandalf dude died
Where did the fourth channel come from?
It's a glitch when you change the SID chip volume very fast to make samples. It's literally what samples are. In this case it's not using samples, it's just copying data from the third channel.
How are there FOUR synth channels? The SID as far as I know only has 3 channels for synthesis and the fourth channel is for 4 bit samples, so HOW in the world is that channel playing synthesis like the other 3 channels do?
It's all the tricks you can do with the hardware, if I'm not mistaken, it's using the cpu to add another channel and mixing them together to get 4 of them, the Amiga could do the same thing from 4 channels to 8 channels and many games on the Amiga did use 7 channels for title screen music and so on.
@@Dan-TechAndMusic Oh right, I didn't know that, thanks for informing me, still, even to this day, that sid chip impresses me with it's sounds and the only real flaw is that it was only 3 channels, if it was 4 like the Amiga or even 5 like the Nes, that would do wonders for music on the C64 whiles also allowing games to have music and sound fx for more games, now if only other 8-bit systems at the time had that level of sound.
@@Dan-TechAndMusic the real technical explanation for the bug is that the zero position is offset a bit, so changing the master volume on the sid chip actually changes where it is. this is why when you jump the master volume on the sid chip from 0 to 15 or back, there's a loud click. Certain other actions can change the offset as well. You do it fast enough, and these clicks become a sample you can hear. A bit of distortion is added to the other three channels to do this, but using the same principle as an arpeggio, you can't detect that the volume is being manipulated during playback. It's much more convincing then said arpeggio effect.
And said said, there's a register that has the output of voice 3. Usually this is used for "true" random numbers by setting channel 3 to noise waveform at max frequency and infinite sustain, with the voices sound output disabled. (even if mute, it still internally creates the noise) Since this actually does't work during sound playback using the third channel, this is generally used to pregenerate them, unless the application doesn't need music. But if you feed this output back into the master volume register with a delay... this happens.
23:41 is up all night to get lucky
25:06 😭😭😭😭
I wish so badly I could do these
23:09
a
i can't even tell if this is something for a game or if it's just a flat-out music album on the c64
one quick search later: it is supposed to be an album
4 channels what
Was this played on an original SID-Chip?
I played the sid of "Ubi Sound" in Winamp, but it sounds very dead and sad compared to the sound in this video.
What sid-players can you recommend for Windows?
man, I don't know if it's possible to use SID chip plugins in winamp, that must be the problem
@@GGVIC25 Plugin is called "SID Player" or in_sidious.dll.
I had the wrong sid first. It was missing the echo of the 4th channel.
The right one is the album-version (all songs in one sid).
I also had to update to the latest version of the plugin.
How does the buffering of the third oscillator work? By reading the register you could also use to get random numbers, you just get the waveform before it's processed by the envelope generator.
Hmm, it's probably just $d41b AND $d41c
Is the 4th channel running square wave samples???
Thanks for the recent eargasmically good jeroen tel songs as of late btw!
STALE MEME Its reading the state of the 3rd Channel, and replaying it with a delay to get a Echo-ish effect...
So...yes, but they're being generated on the fly...
Dankyman100 On the fly sampling?? Holy shit! How do you do that??
STALE MEME The SID has a Register that spits out a 8-bit value of whatever state the 3rd Oscillator is in.
Read from there, buffer it, replay it....
Fun fact: This is the same Register where 'random' numbers come from xD
I've only ever seen this square wave mirroring effect in Afterburner (the homebrew one, not the JT rendition)
I thought the c64 had only 3 voices? Never too old to learn, I guess.
This trick only really worked on the 6581, I honestly have no idea how to explain how it works but I do know it doesn't really work on the 8580 version of the SID
@@cfothough on 6581 if you changed the volume ($d418) the sid chip made a click sound. this is a bug what was fixed in 8580, but can be used to play digi sound samples in 4 bit quality. (fix me if i'm wrong) note: digi sound replay routines need CIA timing, the vblank is not enough.
@@anchoryotube Yeah that's what I wanted to explain but didn't have the words to, thank you!
23:08 death by square wave
Holy FUCK!
4 sound channels?
Part of Crosswords sounds an awful lot like Judgement Day by Big Alec or vice versa :D
„Crosswords” was made in 1988, „Judgment Day” afaik in 1992
How did you manage to embed the timestamps into the video like that? Did UA-cam do that automatically?
As far as I know, you need to do it manually. It's a relatively new feature.
Just one question: How in the world did they use the "PCM" track as an extra synth channel?
You could just use samples of C64 sounds
wow its almost like they just sampled the third channel ( S A R C A S M )
I used to wonder how a man that sounded like me ended up in the cassette recorder when I recorded my voice on a tape and played it back...then I grew up and learned about physics...my father used to wonder how an Audio CD player used to work...he could understand writing binary codes of the musical scale and notes and tempo and rhythm but how does the CD player know the difference between Bananarama's "Cruel Summer" song, and Ace Of Base's "Cruel Summer" song...PCM is the key here...instead of looking at the piano/synthesizer keyboard to record the sound...think of what happens when you use the digital multimeter in electrical engineering class to measure the voltage generated by the microphone coil as it is moved by sound vibrations near a permanent magnetic field...you would get a number on the multimeter's screen which is correlated to the positive or negative sound pressure displacement at the time you measured it...do this about 44,100 times a second and have 65536 possible voltage levels to write down with two microphones facing different areas in the studio...and you did something like what the cassette recorder did...made a analogy of the representations of the sound pressures impinging on the microphone coil. With digital sound recording...it is less sensitive to imperfections in the recording media...if you spill coffee on an index card with an important phone number on it written with a waterproof ink...it ends up stained and unevenly colored...but you should still be able to read the phone number correctly. With analog recording, it's more like a photograph of the picture of the person that you are about to call...the coffee stain becomes mixed with the image you want, and becomes part of the reproduced signal from that point on. And, thanks to computers, simple logic circuits can operate much faster with more predictable results by either conducting at all the way on, or all the way off and there is more linearity, then an amplifier where an error in the smallest change can do damage too. That is how a 1-bit DAC works...if you want fully positive voltage with the speaker cone pushed all the way out, switch the positive voltage on and leave it there. If you want full negative voltage, do not switch on the voltage. If you want silence, simply switch on and off the voltage much faster than a speaker cone is able to move and the cone will stay in the center. To have the cone at half positive voltage, switch on and off the voltage rapidly so that 75% of the time you are doing this...the full voltage is applied. This is called pulse-width-modulation...which works the same way as your home heating boiler works on a cold but not too cool day.
bro the c64 only had 3 channels wth?
😃
There is a bug that allows for a "fourth" channel by alternating the volume.
Ok, where is that fourth waveform coming from?
Why are there 4 voices visible?
I thought the sid only had 3....
SID with 4 channels???
Is this Sid available in HVSC?
Hvorfor F.... udgiver i ikke en cd, der skal nok være købere til den..
Could you do Firing Up by the Maniacs too?
That's a not something that can be represented this way, maybe just a stereo left/right thing but thats it
sorry for being oblivion, but was the SID chip able to use four chanels? I thought it was only three
the 4th channel was something unintended by commodore. it's not produced like the 3 main channels, what happens with this one is that, the master volume control of the old 6581 version of the sid chip produced a clicking sound when the volume was changed. so, those composers manipulated those clicks to make it play pcm samples, or as shown here, grab the output of the 3rd voice and then make an echo.
4 channels WTF
4 voices???
@Midlow in this case replicates voice number 3, light delayed and reduced its volume.
On the original SID chip there was a bug that would cause noise when you adjusted the volume on one of the channels. This noise can be modulated to give you a primitive PWM channel.
When you change the volume it makes a click noise. You can do it very fast to play samples.
Now Imagine if the C64 really did have four voices.
Then it would have five voices ;)
@@aleksanderbudzynowski3625 But only in cases where there is spare memory for all that sample-data.
@@edwardjenkins5421 Its an analogue synthesiser, it doesn't need sample data
@@pigpenpete I'm taking about if it used the 'fifth voice'
dude, where can i download your stuff in hi-fi?
IF I publish it there, which is the plan, but a year-to-year plan, with background life going on... likely on our/my SoundCloud page. (not a promise, but a likelihood). =)
@@JeroenTel How about Spotify? Damn it would be a dream.
@@Ti0Luch0 Hopefully soon enough... 😉
how long did SidWiz2 rendered?
I don’t remember, but probably a while.
maybe about 3 hours?
I don’t think so. It was probably a bit less than that.
so it takes about half a day I guess?
It took a long time but definitely not that long.
Platypus 3
ah yes, the virtual PCM channel copying others
guy used the sampling channel for a normal square wave
It's for echofying
I would buy a NFT of a chip-fune.
How did they get that fourth channel?
Probably using the volume register trick normally used for samples but no reason it couldnt be used for another channel of pulse wave - not exactly hard to generate those in code.
Why are there four voices? Or is the 4th one the modulation of the loudness register?
It's exploiting a quirk of the third voice. I don't understand quite what's going on, but the extra voice is where the "echofied" in the video title comes from. It's essentially tricking the third channel into playing a pulse wave on top of the waveform it's meant to be playing. That's the reason the third channel sounds a little... crunchy.
Mind you, take that with a huge grain of salt. I haven't looked online to get the details and that's just what I've inferred from some of the comments. The volume register might be involved, but I understand that the third channel is being rapidly sampled as part of what's going on.