Is Church Membership Biblical?
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- Is Church Membership Biblical?
This theology podcast Josh Lewis And Michael Miller will be discussing Church Membership. Is church membership just a modern invention to control congregants or can church membership be found in the Bible? Is church membership necessary for spiritual development or an optional practice for believers? Michael Miller and Josh Lewis have both been reading Mark Dever's 9 marks book, and it has sparked a lot of thoughts about church membership.
We will do our best to answer questions like, Why is church membership important? What is the role of a church member? Why is church membership neglected?
It is going to be a fun episode of The Remnant Radio, hope you enjoy.
I have that same bobblehead of Spurgeon! It’s pretty cool!
I’ve observed for decades how it’s always church leaders who strive to conjure up a legalistic case for official church membership - and for their own official authority. They preach a freedom and flexibility of the operation of the Spirit, and the goodness of God, yet want rigid definition for church membership because otherwise God is not wise or fair enough to properly hold them accountable for their ministry in a way that makes them comfortable. In my experience and observation, it’s and exercise of flesh, not Spirit, and a mark of immaturity that is beneficially outgrown.
So if a married couple attended your church every Sunday for 10 years and was involved, but not members, the leaders are not accountable? But if someone attends 6 months but "officially' joins, the leaders are responsible? You are out on a limb with a saw. The church at 'Corinth" was made up of residents of Corinth that attended. They didn't have to have a 'piece of paper' or get the "right hand of fellowship".
Thank you, well said!! I don't understand why people think a piece of paper is needed for church membership. The Bible clearly says it is through the blood of Jesus.
I don't see in Scripture that when we give our lives to Jesus, we are also giving ourselves to a specific local congregation. As believers we are meant to fellowship with other believers. We are meant to come together and share what God is doing in and through us as we seek to know Him more and build His Kingdom in the world around us. The Church is NOT the building. The Church is those who love God, have received Jesus as their Savior, and seek to love God and love people. We all have a direct line of communication to the Father. There is only one head of the Church, and that is Jesus. When we come together to worship and fellowship, we are meant to seek to see what God is saying and doing in and through each person. We are members of the Church through the blood of Jesus.
Exactly right Ms. Angel.
These guys had to create “inferred” proof that extra biblical, institutional membership was a New Testament practice, hence Biblical. Their lack of sound scriptural application substitutes the institutional church’s leadership for the Headship of Jesus. Christ. Official church membership is a kin to believing Jews requiring Gentile believers to be circumcised. Read Galatians 2. “That they might bring them into bondage, to whom we did NOT yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.”
Institutional church membership misrepresents the church, salvation and exalts man over Jesus Christ. It is blatantly unbiblical, abusive, sows discord amongst the body…… It violates so many basic scriptural principles. Believers don’t need to create inferences to avoid such error.
The Remnant Radio, I think people don't want to be a member of a church( especially a mega church) is ; because most American churches have got into more of a conference mode and not a Family Community!! Of course you have people who don't want to committ, but many people I have talked to say they are tired of feeling like they are just a number in a conference or concert , social club community!!
Thomas White very true
Over decades as a believer the healthiest churches I've been a part of did not require formal membership, and the model was Jesus Christ as the only head of the church, His body, all working together in the various gifts and graces bestowed on us by the Holy Spirit, to build up an exhort one another. There was engagement with each other in discussing the scriptures. Teachers were seen as on the same footing as everyone. They weren't viewed as having some special position where they were some sort of gateway between "laiety" and Jesus. There was freedom to ask the hard questions. We had spontaneous Bible studies at home gatherings, and there was no issue about them being "controlled" or "sanctioned" by Central Command. Yes, there were leaders, but not in the sense of the corporate business model most churches function in nowadays, where control seems to be the major focus, and members are taught by default practice to be passive listeners and not ask questions or actually engage in what's being taught. My experience with churches that require membership is that the leadership looks on the "laiety" as minions who are supposed to do the bidding of leaders who separate from the rest of the body decide the vision of the church, anddon't see or treat those not in leadership as having any ability to hear from God or understand scripture apart from what is being dictated by leadership. In short, they haven't correctly discerned the body of Christ. They have forgotten Who the Head of the church is, and neglect the concept of the priesthood of the believer.
I appreciate your comment,well said ! Thank you that you ' ve brought this thing !
Two things I think many people who despise the idea of church member tend to overlook: 1) in my experience those who reject this idea tend to be charismatic or those who struggle with the idea of submission in general. Charismatic tend to not care about the restrictions found in scripture and instead think individual experiences declare what is spiritually correct. So this idea of submission to the authority of a local body will never sit right. It simply does not compute.
2) the WESTERN church tends to also exist in societies where settling down just isn’t a thing. We like to move around. We like something new. We tend to move along when things get stale. And so many times we reject the idea of membership because it requires us to settle with a local body. It’s like saying we shouldn’t get married cuz we already want to find out what’s next.
In sum I have come to find that this discussion is largely a result of the particularities of our western context fueled by this authority rejecting, charismatic stream that has taken over much of American evangelicalism.
if that's the case, then every single regular attendee of Calvary Chapel is in trouble, myself included, because Calvary Chapel doesn't believe in church "membership"
I left my “church” because of several things, one being signing a church membership. I questioned my pastor to help me understand this and he told me in order for him and elders to shepherd effectively. He needs to know who his flock is. I have been attending this church for 8 years. Under 300 attendees. Two years on the worship team and other ministries. But because i wont sign the membership because i don’t believe its biblical, i am not counted to him as the flock. God says im part of his flock. Why do pastors consider differently by adding to the scripture? My pastor and the elders whom i know very personally and love should know me by my fruits, not because i signed a paper. This is a huge problem within the local box church and churches around the world cant understand why people are leaving the church. Stop preaching unbiblical things. I am deeply hurt by my pastor telling me i am not part of his flock. I feel like i lost 300 loved ones. Been crying all day. And i know i cant go back. The fact that the pastor wont meet with me or continue to speak with me on this issue shows that i am not of his flock. This is the 2nd church that has broken my heart. Where do i go now? To another church thats going to break my heart. No thanks. Ill go it apart from box church and stick with my friends who are like minded believers. Being a christian is the hardest thing i have done.
I know exactly what you mean. It's sad when churches and church leadership choose to show favoritism and create divisions within the body through these practices. I hope you are able to find a church that welcomes you not only in spite of your convictions, but because of your commitment to your biblical convictions.
@@nathandcole nope. I gave up on churches. I have relationships. When it becomes an organization instead of an organism things seem to go astray
Thank you for sharing. It is very, very sad to see the state of the Church in the US and to some extent the world. The Church is not the Church structure. The Church is those who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior and follow Him. We are meant to come together to see what God is doing amongst us, making room for people to share various things that God is doing in and through us. I still think Church meetings and corporate worship times are valuable. But it doesn't work well if they are run in a controlling way. I have had several negative church experiences where if I am not a member of that group, they don't receive me. This is NOT the way of Jesus. I am considering starting groups which operate in a different way. Perhaps you also can start something with better, more Biblical values. Or sometimes you are meant to go and speak truth to certain pastors and leaders whether or not they receive it. That is what God called the Old Testament prophets to do.
@@angiecgamble1 thank you
Those are VERY strong statements! The implication that you HAVE to be a MEMBER of a local church in order to follow Jesus, is a bold statement! If you can say that, then I am going to say, You HAVE to support that with scripture! YOU HAVE NOT!!!
Jon Ingram I don’t know that I have stated that. Please forgive me if I did. That was certainly not my intention. I actually tried to go to Great links to explain there may be people who are excommunicated from a local assembly Who are still Christians. Or were some who may be denied from membership who are Christians. I don’t believe that membership qualifies your salvation.
@@TheRemnantRadio right at 30 minutes in, the gentleman wearing the hat stated, commitment to Christ means commitment to a local church...or...a local social club...yada yada...that statement, in the context of the listener's comment comparing church attendance to a non committal relationship, is utter hogwash and has no scriptural basis! If you disagree, please point me to Scripture showing otherwise
@@joningram4187 I think you are confusing the word "commitment" with "justification" or "salvation". To follow Christ is to follow His will, for His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him...and it is He who calls us to love also His bride, the church, whom He loves. He calls us to pray for His church, love His church, serve His church, provide for His church, fellowship with His church - those are all clear expressions of commitment. Not commitment in a salvation sense, but commitment to Christ's bride as a fruit of loving and following Christ.
If you have trouble finding the Scriptures that admonish, command and encourage all of this care of His church (which is what is means by the word "commitment" in this context, let me know, but if you read your Bible you should already have seen many such commands and instructions.
@@TheRemnantRadio You sort of have stated what Jon Ingram said. And that is not Biblical. Not at all. You guys are trying to regulate the Kingdom of God with man's ways of thinking. I would encourage you to put all your thoughts to the side on this and truly seek for God's thoughts. It is God's Church and He can bring whom He would have come to each church and group. If He wants someone to come off the street and share at the Church, that is His preorgative. Pastors need to consider whether it is their Church or God's Church. Are they setting up their own stage, or are they players on the stage that God has already set up, ready to play the parts that God has given them to play?? If the second, then they out to recognize quickly and make room for those whom God brings their way. When I went to Brazil, my Brazilian friend took me to a church. I often feel led to dance at church. In this case I felt led to dance at the back (sometimes the Spirit leads me to dance in the side, middle, front, back, at my seat, or not at all, and I choose to follow the Spirit). When the pastor saw that I was dancing at the back, he suddenly felt that I had things to share with the Church. So he called me up to share. I was able to share some good things, things contained in the dance God has given me. This has almost NEVER happened in the US. People think I am dancing in respose to the worship music. Rather, I am dancing as God directs and have many things to say associated with it. When I bring this up to pastors they generally think I am rebellious and not following their authority. Well, that is actually what the Pharisees thought of Jesus, for example when Jesus healed on the Sabbath. So, I guess I get to fellowship with Jesus in this rejection. But woe to those who reject those who represent Jesus.
Thank you for this. I left a church that I was a member of because of Calvinism. The leadership were all 5 point Calvinists and I believed it for about 8 years. I never had any real consistent peace at that time. I had many conversations with the elders about it. Once I was more open to the idea that Calvinism wasn't true I started attending another church that weren't Calvinist. I just was done with that focus. Actually ended up moving not long after that and now attend a different church. Not sure if I did anything wrong or not. I was ill some of that time in between too. I'm still friends with one of the leaders.
Of course you did not do wrong. If you were not in accord with their main focus and doctrine and you exited quietly, sent a thankful letter to notify them and did not leave with a critic and seditious spirit you are fine. Calvinism does not only focus on Salvation, but on God's character. He is presented as a depot, deprived of everything he asks us to be: Loving and just.
Hey Sarah, I had been a part of a church which I’m waking up to believe that the pastor is a Calvinist, I didn’t even know what it means and still don’t fully understand. However I had been under constant attack and had no peace and a lot of fear hearing demonic voices etc. And I got to a point where I thought something just isn’t right, I prayed and the voices have completely stopped. I was just wondering if you could add me on Facebook Megan Marshall so I could talk to you more about your experience. God bless you
I have major issues with the mega church model and left one a few years ago after speaking with leadership multiple times about why. While theologically I was agreed with on these issues, I was also told there would not ever be a change to the model or practices. At that point I had to be obedient to scripture and they understood.
Conversely, I believe it's become increasingly in vogue to claim to not be a part of a local assembly. I have those close to me who wear the "unchurched" label as a badge of honor and I have recently begun to lovingly really push back on them, because that attitude and position isn't supported in scripture and actually the exact contrary is explicit.The pendulum swing is real when you go from a highly structured almost business like context and the initial reaction when coming out of that is to disband structure and leadership altogether, which is frightening for countless theological reasons. There is no substitute for your local assembly being closer than your family, being full of the Spirit, everyone contributing, and having Biblically structured leadership. The key is to seek out God's wisdom for what the local assembly should look like and how do we model it to the *best of our abilities*, not get rid of it.
Such a wise, wonderfully balanced and reasonable view. I couldn't agree more. Thanks for sharing.
It’s fascinating that someone would actually try and make an argument that a believer isn’t automatically part of Christ’s ekklesia.
The Bible never talks about UNIVERSAL or LOCAL church. You made it up.
The biggest problem you have that you probably just can’t see is that Churches have unbelievers in their membership. Christ’s ekklesia doesn’t.
💀
P.S. nice Boston scally cap, Adam Sandler guy.
Thank you Michael for stating your last point. People love to go to preachers and churches that suit their immoral needs. Soooooooo true. They love going to hear what they want to hear.
Yes, many even most do, but there are also many faithful believers who seek out biblical churches that are faithful to the Scriptures.
Church membership is Biblical. It's called baptism. 🤣👍
On the surface level, meaning that there is deeper rationale as to why Church membership is important. But on the surface level, it is a protection to the local Church assembly. Membership should be contingent upon agreement with the churches confession/statement of Faith. For example, overt issues, such as critical race theory, Egalitarianism, Feminism, women pastors homosexuality should be dealt with as much as possible within the context of membership application.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and also membership to your local church." Ephesians 3:8a (RRV)
You guys were saying that 2000 members were added to the church and that they were counting them, and how would they know if they weren’t counting. I could be mistaken but i thought God was the one doing the counting/adding. Not some guy standing in the back of the church counting attendance
And Luke wrote Acts based upon careful research and interviews of people. It is fully inspired and inerrant and overseen by the Spirit but Acts wasn't dictated from the Holy Spirit either. Luke knew the number because people counted.
While listening to your discussion, this concept of community occured to me:
• old-school community = survival, and
• modern-day community = conflict management.
Just a curious thought.
You two guys don’t seem to grasp the concept of church membership. You interchangeably confuse the body of Christ, being the universal community of all believers, with the extra biblical practice of institutional church membership. How many church memberships are there? How many bodies of Christs are there? The true members of Christ have departed from the Headship of Christ.
If a person becomes a member of the body of Christ upon salvation, and fellowships with other Christians, why do so many groups require a second, official membership? Can’t the Spirit of God alone validate one’s testimony?
Your examples describe church membership from a corporate/institutional perspective upon which there is not one example in Holy Scripture.
You make the mistake of trying to justify your religious practices by scripture that simply isn’t there.
The very act of having official membership is sectarian, divisive and violates the one body, one Spirit which Jesus prayed for amongst HIS members. John 17:20-23. Ephesians 4:1-6.
“I wouldn’t call it a contract, I would call it a covenant.”
Yeah because it sounds more spiritual and religious but your church covenants are literally contracts no matter what more palatable word you choose to make people feel less threatened.
“The Trinity isn’t found in the Bible.” is the worst argument for anything.
I attended 2 churches at the same time. I am a member of a dying traditional church which my husband is committed to. In addition I began going to my local mega church that had a large youth outreach. Even though I didn’t agree with all the church’s teachings, I could see that they were attracting and reaching young people. I volunteered for 5 years and felt like I was where God wanted me. Then the youth pastor I was working with got fired. In his absence I started doing more of the teaching. The kids had a lot of questions about heaven and hell. We talked about the resurrection of the dead , which they had never heard of ! I encouraged them to ask and talk it over with their families. Someone went home and told their parents that I believed in reincarnation. The next thing I knew the pastor told me I couldn’t teach anymore because I wasn’t a member. When I asked if I could become a member, he said I couldn’t be a member of 2 churches at the same time. It was against their bylaws. I caved and didn’t fight it. It’s been a year now and I still feel called to them.
How about huge churches that people go to and the senior pastor has no connection with its flock. He kinda appears at the sermon time and disappears afterwards ! I’m perplexed by these churches but mine is personal and lead pastor available available up front after the church as well as before
You guys are encouraging control in Churches. Our attitude is meant to be to say: God, what are You doing, who are You bringing my way to fellowship with, to learn from, and how do I make room for them in my life and at church gatherings to share things that God has shown them. If we do not learn from every expression that God has put in mankind, then we are closing the door to learning about and receiving from certain aspects of God. People should not get a vote in things because they are members of a local congregation. They should have a say if and because they know Jesus. You are putting a lot of pressure on church members to basically be pastors of their supposed pastors. You are saying that when pastors go off track, the members are supposed to be patient, show mercy, longsuffering,... If pastors actually are meant to lead the congregation, they should be this way towards those in the congregation. But rather, you are encouraging leadership of both pastors and members. Indeed I do agree that all beleivers, no matter their earthly church status or other status, are charged with the charge of helping to bring the Kingdom of God to the earth. We do this through fellowship with God and ideally we would work together with other believers to do this. But all those who are submitted to Jesus have leadership in the Kingdom of God! It feels like this is a couple of white men trying to talk about how to maintain control over people.
Thanks for this episode Josh. ❤
Where in the bible does it say to have a radio show or a UA-cam channel? That should be your next topic.
Jacob Inglett I think it’s right next to the verse about driving cars and wearing blue jeans
Member: a limb, an organ or a part of a Body.
Body: the structure of a person.
These are the ways Paul use these terms.
The way pastors use these terms is this way:
Member: a person joined to an organization
Body: a group of people gathered in a locality.
The definitions don’t even fit the biblical example.
Paul’s usage of these terms shows that Christ is the Head and every believer is a member.
Church use of these terms show that unbelievers can be members of various bodies. But there is only one Body and there is one head. And that head is not called a pastor.
30:24 he goes “about that day was added 3000”. That is a very interesting twist of what the verse says. Is that intentional? It actually says “that day about 3000 were added.”
Did you switch where the word “about” was because it doesn’t help your argument? If they kept close track of numbers and counted heads then why or how could they say “about 3000”, aka “roughly” or “approximately 3000”?
6:20 your no answer is wrong Jesus told Peter feed my lambs. No is not the right answer.
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. 18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”
I became under the authority of my Assemblies of God church by becoming a member yrs ago
So much to cover here. Commitment to a local group is commitment to Christ? So a person cannot even be saved without for a church contract agreement? 🤔
No one said that! Boooooo!
Can you direct me to the video or transcript to the video that discusses being unequally yoked and that it doesn’t apply to marriage? Thanks! Blessings!
Hi, where can I find the "Stop doing that to scripture" video please
truly wanting to know this. What scripture shows that when we belong to a local body of believers that we have a spiritual covering?
Notice that when this man is removed from the church he is also handed over to Satan...
1 Corinthians 5:1-3 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Institutional church membership is an abomination to God.
Proverbs 16:16-19.
God hates one who sows discord among brothers.”
James 2:1-4, 8-9.
“But if you show partiality, YOU COMMIT SIN, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.”
what if the pastor is always out of town
Probably need to find a different church
Good discussion
So you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation?
I sure don't...not sure what these guys believe..
@@bettyglitter4760 I don't think they actually do. But he definitely said that.
The Remnant Radio can you tell me truth about God changing Sauls name to Paul?
Thomas White Paul’s name was not changed.
Jesus he never change Paul’s name. Paul and Saul are the same name in different languages. Preachers have been saying that Saul Was knocked off his donkey and his name was changed from Saul to Paul. But go read all accounts of that story. That never happened. It’s just a factual error, propagated by assumptions.
If I go to Mexico and they call me Josue my name never changed, it’s just Josh in Spanish.
Ok I get it LOL!!
Thomas White it’s not a big theological issue. Just annoying.
Thomas White and now that you know, it will annoy you every time you hear it. It’s the gift that keeps on giving