Can Christians Use AMAZON?! w/ Dr. Alex Plato
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- Опубліковано 22 кві 2024
- Full Show: Coming Soon
During a larger discussion on Distributism it's consequences, implications, and demands Matt Fradd asks Alex if Catholics and Christians can morally justify Amazon. Alex's answer is... you shouldn't but yes you can, but also it's different for everyone... just watch the video.
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I'm 76 and can barely walk.. I live alone - no family or anyone to help me. I don't have a car. AMAZON is a Godsend. Books and vitamins - and some household cleaning products.Most of the books i get are out of print.I know what the 'cons' are, but all corporations and technologies have downsides.
You seriously need the Church and the community.
@@jonah9861What do you expect someone to do with a comment like that? The person in need isn't the person capable of getting that need met.
The problem is exactly this. If we think it is alright to have our “needs” fulfilled by a corporation, we start looking at the “good side” of what wants to destroy us. If he REALLY needs to have his TRUE necessities fulfilled, instead of selling his soul to a company, he should call the Church, be involved in the community, and I guarantee you that ALL his necessities - soul and body - will be fulfilled, even if he was paralysed in a bed.
@@jonah9861 You are seriously deluded ''selling his soul to a company'' hahahhahah
@@myfakinusername Mercantilism will never save you. It offers you a comfort life, while you lose your soul. The source of life is not capitalism. Capitalism without values will end up in Tr@ns kids.
A common discussion in Catholic circles. Here's my problem: pretty much everything except mom and pop shops are playing with fire now. Kroger, all big pharmacies, WalMart, Target, etc. and yes, Amazon. Don't assume that your nice ethical store is available everywhere in the country - it isn't. I have a family of 6 (maybe more one day because we take openness to life seriously). What am I left with to buy even basic items for my family that is actually affordable? Not to mention that the small stores these days have a tiny fraction of the inventory and at a higher price point. Stewardship is part of Christian living and I cannot justify spending $4 on a box of pasta when I can get it for $1 across the road. Oh and your "ethical" cell phone providers... use the same towers that Verizon and T-Mobile use. You are still funding the company you don't like. It makes ZERO sense. And health insurance companies are evil too (all of them)... so should I pay double for health cost sharing just to add a monumental more amount of work to simple illness just to get reimbursed? Because I have time for that as a mother of 4? This is an example of the reality that we must not be of this world, but we still need to live in it, within reason.
Exactly. I'm reminded of the series The Good Place (watched it long ago, not sure if I could do it now!), where they learned that not one single person for hundreds of years had qualified for heaven, because everything had become so intermeshed that there was absolutely no way to avoid *some* kind of involvement with the unethical or immoral. That tomato you bought might be organic and delivered by handcart to the local farmers market, but the seeds six generations back were shipped over from another country that used slave labor, so that was a "point" against you.
As for us, we live rural, and Amazon is quite possibly an actual Godsend.For example, the only store within a half hour that sells baby clothes is Walmart, and they're missing some really, really basic stuff. Like SOCKS. And cold weather clothing. I have repeatedly asked my husband, and remain mystified - there are a lot of people in our area who don't have cars, most likely don't qualify for credit cards, and there's almost zero public transportation. How are these people clothing their children?!
I'm personally grateful for Amazon.
Did you listen to the video?
@@TheDomVerde Yes I did, thank you.
Couldn't resist this. Insurance companies don't profit off the sick. They profit off the healthy. Look to the providers and their outcome incentives to find evil 😉
Well said!
It's always fascinating hearing what people say they need, especially first world citizens in Western countries. "I need to buy stuff from Amazon/Walmart because it's cheaper," or "I wouldn't shop there if I made more money." In the meantime, most families have two cars, go out to eat multiple times a week, having multiple subscriptions to entertainment services, go on expensive vacations, etc... according scripture, we have what we need with clothes on our backs and food in our bellies. Everything else is a third donut. I'm not saying it's evil, but let's not fool ourselves.
So true 😂
I think I am one of the very few people in the Western World who has never purchased from Amazon. When Amazon started out selling books, my sister bought me an Amazon voucher. I was young and I didn't know how to use it, so it layed in a drawer for years. I found it a couple of years ago and was about to throw it out, when it occurred to me that it might be a collectors item. I smiled at the irony of me who never purchased from Amazon, selling an Amazon antique back to them.
Amazon does rural areas a service in providing access to goods and services that otherwise would have to come at great expense to a larger community with those goods and services.
Yup. We’re low income and rural, and the closest store (which is 35 miles away) charges almost twice what I can get things for on Amazon. We don’t have a clothing store other than what’s combined with the grocery store. Then you factor in gas and time for a 70 mile round trip, and subscribe and save wins.
I try to go to the brand’s site first, but that’s not always a good options either.
Do I hate supporting Amazon? Yup. Do I have a choice? Nope. Not right now.
Scrupulous. When you start looking at little things like these you can lose sight of whats important: chastity, charity, etc.
Funding an exploitative and abusive bohemoth seems important. Probably more important than chastity since it literally kills people.
If you let your hair down and had some gay sex but stopped consuming from Amazon, you'd do an awful lot less evil in the world
@@hc192 I wouldn't say more important than chastity, but I do agree. The scrupulousity argument is silly.
Am from the Philippines. The only way I can get reasonable access to many books and other Western products is through Amazon's free shipping to the Philippines. Otherwise, we'd need to pay an exorbitant shipping fee worth multiple times the price of item. As a college theology teacher, most of my purchases are Catholic books.
Not can, but SHOULD. Well, some of us find we have to. Certainly, at times.
Just wait until they put all other options out of business then raise the prices. You're being controlled into thinking you need these services. With less option they will be able to charge what they want.
It seems that "can catholics use/watch etc" is the new couting how many angels can dance in the head of a pin.
Yeah, I know a guy who told me *CATHOLIC LOFI* will tempt you to lust. 🤦🏽♂️
@@t-06 oh Gosh...🫠
I was looking for this interview. 7pm tonight >.
The solution of Amazon for a distributist is to provide local first search engine algorithms on computers sold locally that favor local or regional ‘Amazons’ that do not allow capital to flow out of a community, encourages local retail, and discourages large corporations and large govt bureaucracies to flourish
Localism!
@@FirstnameLastname-qz9fr YES!!!
Common potential downsides not mentioned in this video:
1. You potentially don't own the digital things you're buying
2. Amazon can discontinue access to that item at any time, for any reason; possible reasons being censorship pressures and/or Amazon losing the license to that item. This could mean even them removing it directly from devices you've downloaded the item on -> see the recent story regarding Ubisoft discontinuing the video game The Crew, and directly removing it from user's devices, or the Stellar Blade demo coming out early unintentionally and then Sony deleting it from user's devices to prevent them from playing it. I have never seen a case where they refund you the money you spent on the item they took away from you
3. Your items could end up being censored based on the latest social pressure de jour without you knowing about it. This could be in changing the words in the book, removing certain chapters, or even removing the book entirely from you
4. Your digital license is most likely not transferrable. While you can likely share content while you control the license with friends and family, if you ever lost control of that license (a very likely cause being that you die, or that you break the terms of service), Amazon can revoke access to that content and prevent your friends and family from accessing it
5. Actual ownership is a good championed by the Catholic Church; buying things digitally where they depend on a license in the aforementioned points above means you don't actually own anything
6. Without owning the actual content, you cannot resell the items (most companies prevent you from selling your digital license with their terms of service)
7. You have to be connected to access your digital content at first (after 1st time you can have it downloaded potentially). If you don't have access to the internet to access that new book, you would need to wait to access it rather than if you bought it physically and had it on your shelf instead. This one ends up being a major detriment for video and gaming content too; any digital content you've downloaded periodically checks on the internet to see if you still have access to the license or not. XBox I believe cuts your access to a digital game after 3 days if it can't get to the internet to check the license, even if you've downloaded it
8. Not specifically an issue for books, but particularly for videos, the streaming version of content is often not at the best possible quality (720p rather than higher) unless the highest quality is available (which not all videos have)
9. Streaming any sort of bought digital content (though books you don't have to generally) depends on a constant internet connection which may not always be available
10. The ease of access to digital means that most people don't want to champion physical media - larger stores like Best Buy, Target, and Walmart have all but removed their physical movies and shows (though I find it interesting Target has more Vinyl records than BluRays now)
That's not to say that physical mediums don't have detriments; they definitely do, such as having a higher cost than digital, needing to store them somewhere in your home, and the fact that they will wear down faster than a digital medium (you can always redownload your digital item aside from the points above, but your personal devices that access that content do age and will wear out eventually too). They also lack from the ability to update them with things that may actually be pertinent rather than things that come from censhorship.
A benefit of the physical though is that, when you die, no one is showing up to your house to reclaim the physical copy of Ghost you have on BluRay. While likely old and something your friends and family wouldn't want, they still have the option of doing something with it rather than flat out losing it.
To be fair, digital ownership is possible. Very possible. It's just that they companies are not doing it. In fact, most of the "purchases" of digital content is actually a rental in the terms of service. I think a lot of the digital problems could be fixed if governments started forcing companies to build ethical technologies.
Most privacy technologies are simply promoting ownership (though they typically don't call it that). Things like Open Source (ownership of the source code), Blockchain (source code and compute ownership), "privacy preserving tech" (data ownership), etc.
@@FirstnameLastname-qz9fr I agree it could go that way where things are done responsibly; I'm not sure government enforcement is the way, but that's something I think reasonable Catholics can disagree with.
The government in court cases has come down on the side of publishers in a lot of cases too. Video game preservation has been stymied heavily for example where game companies don't want to release their source code for their servers for their online games. Courts have come down on the side of the game companies to prevent releasing server code in those cases, such that it's much more difficult to get online-reliant games functioning again.
Granted, we never owned the physical versions either. There are legal limitations on discs like DVDs and BluRays for example where you can't make your own backup copies of them. I just find it interesting the laws seem to have a similar viewpoint (you can't have your own copy) between physical and digital, but digital is the only one that is easily reclaimed/taken on license loss since no one tracks which person bought a physical version.
I honestly don't think enough consumers care that they lose digital content either. With most things streaming, there isn't a lot of reason for people to even purchase the digital versions where they'd notice these issues.
Though streaming is its own form of not owning anything too. It seems like another avenue where the Catholic views on ownership should come into play for a Catholic's life.
It’s so easy to spot the people who comment before watching.
Always negative this McMullan dude.
I feel this is largely dependent on where one lives. Amazon has given access to many goods and services to people who live in rural areas or foreign countries who couldn’t receive them before. For that reason, I support it.
I try to not use wall mart, Amazon, big box stores etc., as much as possible.
How come?
@@RudyVasquez-de3tj They undercut many local businesses. Walmart is particularly cutthroat. They’ll set up shop in a small town and target one business at a time to run out of business. Because they’re product lines are so broad they can take a loss in one department and cut their prices to run a competitor out. Then raise prices in that department later and do the same in another.
@@ThanksStJosephSo basically they are better at doing business
@@RudyVasquez-de3tj
Because they're woke AF.
@@DManCAWMaster I guess. But what’s that good for when they’re the only option in town, your neighbor is run outa business, the quality is crap because they no longer have incentive to be good, the profits go outa town….. and the list goes on. Being good at something doesn’t mean it’s desirable.
Amazon provided food, medications and other products for me and family during the pandemic, I thanked God for thier services. A God send for us, we live outside city limits and the nearest store was always full of people and no good on the shelves. I don't believe God will object.
He addresses such situations when talking about what usury.
If you can’t shop at unethical companies, you can’t shop anywhere.
People have lived without buying things. I think with that insight you can go far. Making things is better than buying things, especially when buying things no longer seems morally neutral, just morally necessary.
@@benabaxter how will you make your cloth?
@@GaserBeam-hi4ez From thread, and thread from the wool of sheep---etc. This is what spinsters are for! They spin.
This is how it has been done, but of course I don't object to things being done some other way for some reason, so long as the means is good---or at least not bad. WIthout Distributism or something like it, you can have no vision of what is good or bad, just what is efficient at the expense of humanity.
@@benabaxter you said YOU and we need to make things, not buy it from spinners. How are YOU going to make it? You growing the flax? Are you raising sheep enough to supply your clothes? Are you creating an internet server for your computer or Wi-Fi network and cell network for your ethical phone use.
Stupid lazy argument. Of course you can.
For better or for worse, and sadly as I see it, we cannot ever go back to the way things were. I am old now and my eyesight is dimming and I have mobility issues so I do not drive. Amazon saved me during the pandemic. I don’t know what I would’ve done for groceries. Amazon keeps me supplied with my needs, books, and my recreation, and helps me maintain my independence and not have to rely on others. The world has become what it is today and there is no way we will never go back to the world as it was in simpler days
This is the problem! You should rely on others! That's the world Catholics ought to be building, one where we are in relationship with other people, not just relationship with systems and services. How can you love thy neighbor if you have none or do not know them?
I don't dream of a 401k and retirement, I dream of a world where I don't need a 401k because my children and community take care of me in my old age. That's the Catholic future.
@@FirstnameLastname-qz9fr of course we should be able to rely on others. We are the church, the body of Christ. However, if one has no one to rely on, what do we do? I would love nothing more than to be embraced inside family that had the time and the patience and the energy to help us navigate old age. Tragically for some that is not the case, but you are definitely right. As Pope John Paul said, we have created a culture of death. And those of us forced to live in it have to figure out how to survive.
This sounds overly scrupulous at times. Most items don't "need" to be purchased from Amazon.
Depends on where you live, what you're buying (which may not be locally available) and your life circumstances.
@@suzannederringer1607 that is exactly why I thought it was flirting with scrupulosity.
This is such a necessary kind of conversation and it's mindblowing the acid response from viewers. When I've tried to present these arguments, just for the sake of opening the debate, showing up new perspectives on the hyper-complex problems of modernity, you get a kick-back as if you're a sort of hypocrite radical, scrupulous... if more consequent Catholics would put their minds, hearts and hands to reshape their own working places, we could have options that aren't evil. At least, we would be found by the Lord working on alternatives, for His Glory, and for the authentic good to all our brethren...
In a fallen world, all things are pretty much evil. We have to live in the world but not be of the world.
My husband did this at a job when he found out they were part of the abortion industry... he refused to do certain projects, etc and eventually had to just leave altogether or would have been fired. It is not that easy to change your workplace but it sure is easy to tell others to. Have you personally ever done it? Have you stopped a medical organization from performing gender mutilations and sterilizations and abortions?
@@ClearestofGlues lame excuse. Let's start building the future of Catholicism... now!
@@ashleyslack5960 Hi, Ashley! Well, I'm actually facing court right now for saying the truth about something. I was falsely accused and the judges have dismissed my claims that the basis of the suit was false. It's a long story. I'm going to the Supreme Court now... I'm not saying everyone should go this way. God spare you from these radical consequences. Evil is vicious and vindictive, but I trust the Lord is with me. As everytime you stand out against evil in His name, He manifests His love greatly.
So, this story has nothing to do with my workplace. I used to work as a Philosophy teacher in a school. I left when my first son was born but I was already unease about modern education. In these last years I found a greater option, returning to tradition. The Lord had been guiding almost since I started teaching into discovering what education is really about. I'm now starting a society that offers true Catholic education to people in my country. I'm up to homeschooling my boys on Liberal Arts (the true Traditional Western education, celebrated by people as great as Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Newman, Chesterton, Lewis, etc..) However, it's very hard, people think you're radical. Catholics look at it suspiciously too. We need an education that's not for making money but for pursuing Truth. That was the education from the Ancient Greece to the beginning of the 19th Century. So... well, I'm doing that battle too...
Sorry this message got so long! I don't think bad on anyone. I just wish we Catholics could really try to think what's possible. Sometimes, we will have to leave and start something from the ground, or look for another job that doesn't bother our conscience. Maybe your husband can find a better job? You can pray for it! God is merciful and willing to give when you seek to live according to HIM! God bless you!
Buy a Light Phone, you can actually get off smartphones
If you want to walk down this path you’d have to give up all monetary exchange. You’d literally have to abandon your current way of life and live in the woods off the land. The extent of how much “unplugging “ you want to do is entirely dependent on how intelligent and capable you are of recognizing the absurd evil of the world and its reach. How stupid
You're thinking is too American. Yes, if you were to tackle this alone, that is what it would mean. However, we are not meant to live as isolated individuals. We are meant to live in community. Let's start by building our own towns... then cities... then nations. That's the path forward my friend.
@@FirstnameLastname-qz9fr that’s just a repeat of history and a completely unoriginal idea. It’s a perpetual cycle of madness.
This is silly. I’m self-employed, but I still work for the people that pay me for my services. Also, forget distributism. You want an environment that allows for perfect competition so ownership goes to the individual or group who uses resources most efficiently. And you want transparency so there is free flow of information and consumers can make the best decisions possible.
Well we certainly don't have any "perfect competition." Amazon and all the other giants made sure to crush anyone who would attempt to compete. After crushing their competition, they raise the prices to reap all the profits they lost while crushing their enemies. It's actually crazy how expensive Walmart is for the quality they provide. And transparency? I suppose I would ask when was the last time you got something on Amazon that was fully transparent with its materials, labor sourcing, ethical promotions, financial incentives, profit margins, etc. Probably never. Now if you bought from your friends, then you would.
On top of this, we have advertisements that are blatantly designed to manipulate you to buy and consume the products, even if the product is of no actual value. ie. invented need. I would hardly call that the "free flow of information so consumers can make the best decisions possible."
Distributism is the best attempt at Catholic social teaching we have. Forgetting it is, by definition, to forget the Church's teaching.
Prometheus versus Boethius
I guess a question I have is at what point should one become skeptical. Amazon was a money-losing online bookstore for almost 20 years. Where is the inflection point that should trigger skepticism. Same with Apple, Microsoft and every big company. They started small and it’s not until they get to a certain point that they become a concern. Perhaps a bigger question is about power. At what point does a company become too big to fail and too big to resist due to their outsize influence?
Technology, whether it's the wheel, Amazon, or the use of one's computer to work from home...all can be used rightly or wrongfully. Let's take working from home. Not since we were a primarily agrarian society has there been such a Godsend to families. Back when families worked a farm together, there was no issue with either parent being separated from the children very much. Industrialization came along and all of a sudden at least one parent had to leave the home for work every day. I now know families that are together all the time because both parents work from home...both parents are home when the kids get home from school. There is no struggle over gender roles, as to which parent ought to stay home with the kids. Also, if we're not using cars to commute, there is less pollution and fewer traffic accidents. Stress levels are lowered, as well, giving less occasion or temptation to certain sins. I think technology in itself is a gift, but like any gift we must be good stewards of it.
Amazon DUMPS millions of packages at your local post office for pennies for “last miles served.” Ask the daily mail carrier to your home if they “ like” Amazon. 😁
Sin is in the will. If it really is a necessity, how could it be a sin? That said, I appreciate the distinction that we should be skeptical of these massive conglomerates rather than uncritically accepting of them. As much as possible, reduce, and reuse, and also make! Obviously this isn't always possible. It was once possible, but now we don't have the same open world that we once did, we don't all own farmland owned by our family which we can rely on in a pinch to get by in life. We don't all have the commons to get the odd rabbit or fish during the winter or firewood or timber or what have you.
We live in a perfect world of Mammon of perfect commerce and which is a fresh hell. This is not a world we created, but it is a world that man created. God created the world a garden capable of providing for every creature top to bottom. Man created scarcity and man created too many of the needs we take for granted.
I do most of my online shopping from eBay, is it bad?
Yes ebay is bad too. So is basically every big company you've ever heard of including the one you are commenting on and watching a video off of.
Replace can with should
Mostly I use Amazon to order my favourite soft drink or books
The question should not be can Christians do it but SHOULD Christians do it
Idk. Usery is bad, but banks are some of the biggest institutions out there in today’s society.
Shopping at Amazon is bad, but Amazon and Walmart are the biggest shopping centers in the world.
Can capitalism exist without banks? Can local stores compete with the likes of Amazon and Walmart?
I'm not sure what the church defines as usury, because I don't see how banks are bad. People trading time and money is normal in employment, so I don't know why it's bad when a bank does it.
@@Joker22593 It only became normal after the protestant reformation. Before that it was fairly uncommon and only a function of the poorest members of society.
We should aim to think beyond protestantism and be truly Catholic.
Ffs i hope so
This is the same problem the steel axe created; it has two sides, but the person with the handle had the moral responsibility. AI is a different problem; it may have a mind of its own, and then all the moral obligations are in the hands of a small group of individuals. This is more power concentrated in one place than in all of human history, and power is the real hore of Babylon. Forget all the other sins as they are the playthings of power, and this will not end well; history stands as my proof.
What a weird topic. I guess It's like asking if Christians can study the Kuran or the satanic Bible...We have to study something that's kind of related to The Holy Bible. Some of are called to fine the Truth about other religions.
Full interview: ua-cam.com/video/CgAl_S6ddBA/v-deo.html&ab_channel=PintsWithAquinas
I wonder what this guy's opinion in Instagram is. I don't have it, but I know it really detrimentally effects people's mental health and I think is really bad for society as a whole, I don't know if it is moral for me to use it.
How is it different from UA-cam?
@@GaserBeam-hi4ez great question man, I don't know all the differences. But I do know that Instagram is much more short form and photo sharing and has a lot more content that's just people I think and less informational stuff. I don't use it though so I don't really know, but it does seem like it does a lot more harm to people mental health and self perception than UA-cam does
@@covertenterprise8877 Idk if it does more or less harm but I think IG is talked about more because women and young people use it more, whereas mainly men use UA-cam
I'm sure he would want to press Alt F4 on it.
Aquinas' argument about usurers seems analogous to his argument about prostitutes helping to prevent sodomy. Seems like some pretty fucked up logic to me.
I use what I want thanks.
So you want to fund and promote child labor and the lowest wages? Abortion? Anti-Catholicism? Usury? Corporate manipulation? Spying? A consumer economy?
I mean okay. But why are you watching a Catholic channel?
I work for amazon 😢
sorry. hope they let you take bathroom breaks. praying for you.
It's a tool. Tools don't have morality
Its a service not a tool, the Internet is the tool that gives you access to the service of Amazon.
People, stop making excuses and start getting results. Stop shopping at Amazon!
Virtue signal.
@ashleyslack5960 what part of "carry your cross" means "not lifting a finger [literally] to find a different website"?!?!
Because every website for every big store is compromised. That's why. So should I neglect my kids by not clothing them? Is that what Jesus would have me do? You people are MAD. Not everyone can afford $30 per t-shirt from some fair trade website for all 4 + of their kids.
@@ashleyslack5960 No one said you need to buy fair trade clothes and go crazy. But do start. Start by making things yourself. Start small. Start to make a change in the world. Until Catholics actually stand up and walk the walk, we will have immoral corporations as the only option.
You say that while commenting on a website owned by Google.
what if we prioritized making sure that everyone had the resources not to go to Walmart?
The resources exist but so does corruption. And the Church is not a social services organization. They offer us the Living Waters of Christ, the Bread of Life, the Sacraments to fuel our souls. They are not there to be the Salvation Army.
I HAVE NEVER ORDERED ANYTHING FROM THE DEVIL’s pawn AMAZON!
You're being foolish. What corporations supply your grocery store - agribusiness, truckers etc and who owns the supermarket? Without corporations - how would you get gas for your car?
None of these corporations that facilitate our lives is pure and innocent. Why pick on AMAZON?
Why? Because they're larger and the bigger offender...? Duh? @@suzannederringer1607
@@suzannederringer1607 Agree. They pick on Amazon because it is the latest form of virtue signaling - insisting you're not holy enough if you don't boycott every business on planet earth, regardless of your life circumstances. Should we choose more ethical alternatives when reasonably possible? Sure, but that is a matter of personal discernment. I shop at Amazon, but I do not use their devices especially a firestick because it is an actual temptation for sin and consumption of evil content. For me, I also draw the line at Target because I can get everything they sell elsewhere that is at least somewhat more ethical and also doesn't visually scandalize me with alphabet soup and "fatisbeautiful" propaganda everywhere. I don't expect everyone to do that. That is MY personal discernment and the last I checked the Church doesn't have a CCC paragraph that states "one must not shop at X Y Z store for salvation." Ya know? I think this is also a scrupulosity issue, which is not good either.
Do you have a cell phone? Do you use Facebook?
This guy babbles quite abit……and he is well funded…..two reasons to really avoid taking a great deal of credence….nice guy but……