The Story of Snapdragon X Elite
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
- Two lawsuits & a mystery: The Story of Snapdragon X Elite | In this video we will take a look at the exciting history of Qualcomm's new Arm SoC that aims to bring Apple-like performance to Windows on Arm.
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0:00 Intro
0:20 The early beginnings / Apple A4 / P.A. Semi / Intrinsity
1:40 Custom Arm CPUs / Apple A6
3:18 Nuvia & Apple lawsuit
5:17 Nuvia Orion SoC & Phoenix CPU
6:20 Qualcomm & Nuvia
7:13 Arm lawsuit
8:06 Snapdragon X Elite SoC / Oryon CPU
10:19 Adreno GPU / Hexagon NPU / System Memory
11:43 Snapdragon X Elite specs / Windows on Arm
13:19 The competition / Intel Lunar Lake / AMD Strix Point / Apple M4 - Наука та технологія
I heard the whole reason they left Apple was because they wanted to create a Server chip… Apple said no, and wanted them to create more mobile chips. They left thinking they could bluff the company. They tried to be another AMD, but money was tight & Nuvia got acquired by Qualcomm soon after… who wants them to create more mobile chips 😕
except they are doing something even more transformative, WINDOWS on ARM, so I think they are happy with that, it wasn't really just about server or not
@@GarrusVakarian-to2uhthe problem with windows on arm isn’t the chips.
@@honicjoy yes it is, we've not yet had a single fast chip for Windows on ARM
@@GarrusVakarian-to2uh the problem with windows on arm is windows.
@GarrusVakarian-to2uh you are so wrong about that.. even the M series Macbook can emulate Windows, and in lot of cases it's smoother and more efficient like the native Windows on x86.. so you can't directly build a chip just for Windows.. the chip itself actually don't care what is running on it..
Poor nuvia, left apple to develop something more complex than a mobile CPU, then gets bought out by Qualcomm to design a mobile CPU
Never thought about it that way 😆
They were going rather successfully. Then COVID came and business came to a halt. They had no other choice but to sell it to Qualcomm
Yeah, poor them, with 1.4bn from the deal + most of them still kept their high paying jobs
I don't think they can hear you over their giant piles of money.
thats buying a new yacht every few years until you die type of money
Qualcomm doesn't have to beat Apple. They just have to be great. And it looks like that will be the case. This is the first laptop class ARM chip from them. The problem with previous Windows on ARM efforts is that they were just running on mobile chips, not laptop class chips. I think it will be a huge success.
Thanks for spitting facts but I still think it won't be that great mostly because those who use windows also tend to care about GPU performance and it seems they will be shipping this with their Adreno mobile GPU
@@violinsontheblock The chip is only meant for Laptops though, right? Not system-integrators or DIY -- if it can be competitive with Mobile GPU's with a similar Shader-count, I see no issue -- except of course the DRIVERS... If not even Intel could hit a GPU-driver homerun on their first architecture on Windows, then NO WAY that Qualcomm can do it.
@@predabot__6778 no actually there will be a server version as it was originally also developed for servers, and when I was saying mobile GPU, I should've said Phones GPU, it's actually the same GPU they have on Android phones but with more engines or cores and more memory, instead of making a new one or just partner with AMD for a their GPU, they just put the same one slightly higher clocked just like they did with their first PC ARM soc that was just a mobile phone CPU, that's why I think they'll fail to achieve something that could've been great, instead they are focusing on AI while no real work software is using AI as the main feature
They still need an equivalent to Mac's Rosetta 2 translation layer to bridge that X86-ARM compatibility gap until future apps get written for both.
@@jackofthecoke x86 to ARM translation isn't hard windows already does it since 2012 I think, Mac Rosetta has nothing special I can do it, the difference is the CPU and GPU performance you have available, if you don't have that it's gonna be slow
Snapdragon X Elite will have also official support for linux.
If it will it have to be already baked. One can't just add massive patch in a day.
@@n12ox most core components are already in linux 6.9, the rest coming in 6.10 and 6.11
@@Ma_rv hope so, AMD spent several years to upstream their display-related stuff and tune CPU schedulers.
They have promised Linux support but will not be ready on day one. Seeing how slow Qualcomm was with the X Elite I wouldn’t hold your breath.
@@andyH_England promising to marry is not the same as mean being married
The chip was announced around M2, shown public around M3, and ships around M4🤣
That’s what makes it impressive they outclassed apple long ago, and their next
I don’t think they can even beat m1 in single core
@@ketanchaudhari2337on what are these thoughts based on?
The fact that Qualcomm is comparing a their 12 performance core chip to a 4 performance + 4 efficiency core chip should tell you who is on top. Just look at the single core performance of X elite compared to M3.@@carlosramirezcastaneda2696
there isn't any huge leap between apple's M series chips
there is a small room for improvement but ain't worth it for the cost, probably.
so it doesn't really matter as long as don't screw things up
If Qualcomm is to be trusted with their promises, these chips are expected to have good Linux support, which is something I'm looking forward to.
Hopefully otherwise I’m considering them ewaste, I have little to no confidence in Windows on ARM.
But the problem with that, when it's release the chip will be outdated.. similar like the games have about 2-5 years develoment time at max, since if they work more than that on the project, they must start if from zero, just because the technology when they started the project is already 5 years old, and they need to refresh it to a newer technology (so in games the outdated unity/unreal engine or in chip the outdated ARM v8/v9 models must be refreshed, you can't release any new product with 5 years old technology, and those are usually ruin almost all of the works if you need to update the basic method of the whole project)
Since it was designed to be a server solution in the first place it better have good Linux support.
What do you think of running x86 apps on linux arm smoothly?
@@TamasKiss-yk4st Use box86
Price is also going to be an important factor. In the past qualcomm based laptops were more expensive than Intel and AMD based designs
dell said it costed them way less than a intel chip.
Leaked data showed they are cheaper compared to current gen chips.
@@brulsmurf Because Intel is scamming the hole word for decades. Useless pieces of crap that they are only good to drain the battery.
Well I'm from the future and they are way cheaper than what intel and amd offers 😅
There are already pre-orders available here in Australia, $2600AUD for HP Omnibook 14" 2.2k QHD IPS, SD X Elite CPU (12 core), 16GB, 1TB SSD (M.2, not soldered) - so around $1700 USD for what appears to be top of the line. Run time is listed up to 20 hours, only downer I can see is display refresh rate being 65hz, hopefully there are some similar priced OLED or better IPS panel models.
If they compete with M2/M3, then I think we have some good competition ahead.
As someone who loves M-Series macs, I am glad that competition exists for 3 reasons.
1. It is good for keeping Apple from sitting on their butts.
2. Worse that Apple can't no longer keep up, we have an alternative.
3. Price. It keeps Apple from being too greedy as there are alternative choice.
Also, windows get a longer battery life while being cooler in temperatures.
I agree. They probably grabbed a ton of market shares these past 3 years and now they have to be on their toes again
Coming from IC design background, I easily get lost in the technical details and totally miss the story as well as the people behind these amazing technologies. Thank you for a great overview on the story of how the X Elite was created! :)
Getting into low end ASIC design (eg, 4 function calculators) is a bit of a dream of mine.
I worked on an Intel team selling to Apple and knew their products well from 2006 on your summation of architectural history is exactly correct. First time viewer when I saw how correct you were on that I listen to everything. Good stuff!
just got recommended this video earlier today and now I'm watching through the rest of your videos. absolutely fantastic stuff
🍿High Yield upload!
Fantastic video! Kinda reminded me of some of TechAltar’s more technical videos, but you did the technical bits even better than he usually does! (Not implying any copying/plagiarism etc)
Also super awesome you’ve clearly written the subtitles yourself. I see very few UA-camrs your size doing this, and I quite often leave comments complaining about AI subtitles. Genuinely, thank you for including these subtitles, even with the few spelling errors in them. They’re a lot better than AI generated ones would be.
I feel like a lot of ppl use the subs, that’s why I take the time to write them myself.
@@HighYield I appreciate this, I often listen on very low volume, so it's nice to have proper subs :)
It's crazy how long Nuvia has sat on their 'Orion'/'Oryon' arch. I don't know if it's vastly different or similar, but the X Elite only has 1 design, and they've been very quiet on releasing information. Not only that, they've kept on hyping it up every time news about it dies down because of how long they kept it from releasing (like flying press to events using their reference designs). Apart from this years M4, we've gotten die shots of the M series and not even 1 from QC. At least we got a die size estimate lol.
That said, I am still very excited. They'll got a 'wow' from me if we get passively cooled Windows laptops. Intel, AMD, Apple, I can't wait till you cover them all this year!
what's you discord id???
I aint reading all that
The passively cooled part is questionable, the huge mess about they cheated in benchmarks was exactly about that, meanwhile they compared themself with the fanless Macbook Air, they used a device with cooler, so with less power consumption their performance is also way lower like the showed. (The leaked numbers from Cinebench showed the 23W peak and 23W sustained power consumption, meanwhile the M series Macbook had 19W peak and 8W sustained power consumption, guess which one had cooler and which one was fanless, and if that is a fair comparison if you show the result like this, when even the basic M Macbook have a version with cooler..)
@@TamasKiss-yk4styou can't be serious or you just know nothing about CPUs how can you have 23W peak consumption and also 23 as sustain ?????? It's actually around 6W
@@TamasKiss-yk4stmany people have the benchmark numbers and compared it to the pro and it still beats it, only the M3 pro and maxes versions from Apple are on top but mostly just because they have more cores the single core performance is better than the M3 series
Nice new High Yield video
Excellent overview. Will be watching the progress on this.
He left out the real reason ARM is suing Qualcomm. Qualcomm blocked the acquisition of ARM by Nvidia. It cost the ARM executives a fortune. According to what I have read, ARM wanted payback.
As ex-system architect and later on strategy at qualcomm, who actually worked on pc/server strategy, it's a lot more complex business decision. Qualcomm enjoys ARM architecture so much that after it acquired a company, it moved its architecture to ARM. The real reason behind having a RISCV is not just academic, but because ARM was not transparent in licensing their latest architecture. Sure, Qualcomm had architectural license which meant it breaks ARM's monopoly and strategy of commoditizing soc designs might contribute to this as well.
Also, qualcomm has the world's best DSP, so that NPU is just superior.
The sole reason for RISC-V was to undercut ARM's licensing fees.
RISC-V, like the previous 4 generations of MIPS, languished in obscurity until Nvidia tried to buy ARM, and everyone thought Jensen was going to screw them out of their ARM licenses.
Now that deal has fallen through, RISC-V is back to obscurity.
DSP and NPU aren't the same. You definitely know far more than anyone else here. NPUs are highly parallelized while DSPs don't have to be (although maybe that has changed as of recent, as I'm thinking of DSPs going back to retro game consoles (GameCube comes to mind because ... Dolphin Emulator probably (?) )/
@@alext3811 yeah, qcom's DSP is not just DSP, it's own architecture/platform. That said, I meant a DSP can be programmed to be used as NPU.
Love your content. Cannot wait for the next video!
Your channel is pretty new to me but you’ve quickly become one of my favourites to watch! This video was very interesting, I’d be curious to hear if you have any interesting thoughts on Apple’s new M4 chip
@High Yield @1:00 that's partially wrong: Apple still used IP for it's GPUs for a while of an UK based chip desiger company (Imagination technologies) before 2017 and again starting 2020 (and probably in the meantime aswell)
yeah i have a friend that works for imagination and was telling me at the time they were being acquired basically now by china
PA Semi and Intrinsity were some of the best acquisitions of all time
Agree, especially PA Semi was a steal. Apple wouldn’t be where it is today without that acquisition
God-damn, I have found my new youtube channel to binge upon.
great info - well structure -
thanks!!!
Absolutely do the suggested video when these chips and M4 debuts
👍🏽Great history review for this chip. I plan on making the laptop switch just out of curiosity. Do you know if these elite chip laptops can handle external displays at 4k 120hz? Not to run games but just for the fluidity of the mouse and Windows ui.
Quality content.
Keep going!
Great video as usual! Can't wait for the X Elite VS Apple M4 comparison.
Thank you so much for the history and entire backstory behind the chip!
Love the insights into how the Apple and ARM lawsuits came to be!
Great video. You have a new subscriber!
Great video, thanks dude.
Great video! Here's to hoping the claims hold up to scrutiny by independent media and real world performance.
Two words: Andrei Frumusanu.
It’s Qualcomm. It really needs independent scrutiny. I wouldn’t trust a word they say.
@@Chris_miller192and it’s windows on arm.
While Qualcomm just now was praising their SOC matching M2, Apple released M4 within 1 year jumping 2 generations ahead. As much as those ex. Apple guys might have been good, it's not like 3 people drove Apple's SOCs to the market and it's clear that Apple's team and R&D budget still smokes the competition.
Either way I was waiting for Qualcomm to jump into desktop market for quite some time - kinda shocked only just now all of this went into motion as I was anticipating it within only 1 year since M1 launch. ARM is superior for most consumer devices and Microsoft not pushing that as hard as possible earlier was quite shocking to me.
I wouldn't be sure that Apple's R&D budget for Chip design alone is much bigger than what Qualcomm can sustain. Their whole business is chip design. And they are very much of the thought that high performance/draw arm SOCs for PCs and notebooks are where their next big market share jump is.
ARM is only superior to x86 in sub 15w chips .. otherwise there isn't any advantage
They also dropped it in the iPad just waiting to see what it is like in a Mac lol. Imagine getting destroyed by an iPad
M4 isn't two generations ahead of M2. Their design has stagnated and advancements are rather small.
Indeed! And the reason Microsoft isn’t pushing ARM as hard is because of their long lived relationship with Intel. Also, most developers have already designed all of their apps around x86 microarchitectures. Apple doesn’t have those limitations.
Great and fantastic video. Thanks a lot.
Loved the research and amount details in this video. First time seeing your content and you have a new subscriber. To add, I’m surprised Samsung didn’t go after Nuvia. Exynos has improved, but that would have helped a lot.
Thanks for the summary. Will certainly be interesting when it's all rolled out and you're right about software - that is going to be key. Pretty sure MS just released a new emulation or instruction translation product that will help those with legacy code that will never be ported, if it lives up to the claims of performance it would go a long way to reducing friction from change of x86 to ARM.
This is very interesting. I am looking forward to keep learning about chips.
I'm an Apple user and i can't wait to see this little monster running Windows ARM.
I always love to see new toys and also, when company's compete they do better products and everybody wins.
P.D: Your videos are amazing, thanks for the effort.
Exactly! I’m a actually a new Apple user, got my first MacBook recently, and I love it, but man am I excited for these snapdragon CPUs, I think it’ll be beneficial for everyone if they do well!
The thing is that Apple kind of acts like no one else exists (besides when they were selling M1, the first Mac to have Apple Silicon. (PowerPC doesn't count because they were only 1/3 of AIM).
Brilliant video, thank you
Great video! I would interested in a comparison video between the M4 and the X Elite. Especially after WWDC.
Okay. I gotta ask. What about running linux on these ARM chips? Why is Snapdragon completely quiet on that front?
looking forward to real benchmarks!
in this ever lasting war for performance per watt, there is only one winner at the end of the day, ARM
The channel name is just perfect
Apple competing against AMD, Intel, or Qualcomm makes for a good marketing story but no one buys Apple for hardware specs in isolation because they are buying the whole package or perceived experience. Qualcomm's biggest threat is Microsoft losing interest. It's been 8 years since Zen and Windows still hasn't figured out scheduling properly. Competition is great but will it lead to low cost low power e-waste?
Who cares? If the hardware is great, we can just run Linux on it.
That's a great point about MS potentially (probably?) losing interest.
@@eelaeshi4057 For most people Linux kinda sucks. The way I see it the year of Linux on the desktop will come not because Linux got better (it hasn't) but because Windows got worse (it most certainly has). I don't know that we're close enough to the tipping point that Linux could carry hardware sales the same way that Windows or macOS can.
@@eelaeshi4057 Windows, somehow, still has the majority share of the market.. so from that perspective, a lot of people care (just not you or I)
the one who is in trouble is microsoft, the AI spyware in win 11 will make windows vaporware soon and force everybody towards unix , macos and linux
@@everyhandletakentalk to me in 5 years and lets see if thats still gonna be true
Great video. I’ve subscribed.
Looking forward to this one 😉
in some ways it kinda makes more sense to compare a low power mobile chip to a server cpu than to a desktop one - its the desktop thats the odd man out with little to no concern for efficiency
but in either way its still apples to oranges comparisons. different use case different workload different constraints
cheers!
I was so hyped about Apple M chips, so bought my first Apple devices ever (Ipad and Macbook). I heard many Windows users did the same. And I admire M-chips power efficiency and silence. Cannot wait as the industry moves Windows and Linux to the ARM
Same here!
I adore my M1 Macbook Air.
@@dfcx1 I've got an M3 Pro MacBook Pro and it's a really nice bit of kit. It reminds me of Sun workstations. Then again a RISC CPU running BSD with a proprietary GUI describes both a Apple Silicon MacBook and a Sun Workstation. And even though SPARC ended up losing the performance battle against Intel the early SPARC and MIPS CPUs were very faster, albeit at a slightly eye watering price premium for a Sun or SGI machines vs a PC. Even after they slipped behind in raw CPU performance Sun and SGI machines still had a better storage system than PC.
@@user-qf6yt3id3w Arm1s originally ripped the fuck out of even VAX, only beaten by the aforementioned SPARCs and MIPS’s
unixerald
ARM is the future... Developers WILL get with the program and port their apps over to Arm architecture!
CISC architecture is approaching its twilight. Despite RISC architecture sputtered at first with IBM it is now making inroads on CISC.
What about that RISCV MS is sitting on?
@@iamarapgod RISCV has potential, but and this is my own personal opinion, because of the modularization of the hardware which makes it more efficient for specific things than general ARM I feel it will fragment its market sort of like the way Linux has on the software side.
At around 10:40 you say 45 TOPS of INT8, but the next slide shows INT4. Has it been 100% confirmed to be one or the other at this point?
Target and timing a silicon chip (well, any product) is highly important. From the current details seems that Qualcomm managed to achieve required performance target, efficiency and timing. If they did this 3-6 months earlier this would have been a major win. It takes 3-5 years to deliver anything major thus it will be interesting to see how Oryon V2 looks like within next 12-18 months. Apple showing up with M4 so quickly (6-7 months after M3 IIRC) makes it tricky. That basically means that M4 had to be designed in parallel to M3. This had to be expensive.
Qualcomm also has a blog post for Linux support (what they did, and the plan for the next 6 months). GCC and LLVM patches (incl. pipeline information) is already posted for upstream review. Chips and Cheese already posted initial review and comparing to other chips (Cortex-X, M3, etc.)
If this chip from Qualcomm performs as expected with a good efficiency most likely the biggest impact will be felt on Intel's side in a short term. The biggest problem still is Windows/Microsoft ecosystem with tons of legacy (i.e. never recompiled applications). This isn't a problem on Linux side where Linux distributions support multiple architectures and all of these get regularly recompiled.
Very well explained, I am not an apple or windows user but solely GNU-Linux and a bit of ChromeOS.
What do I think about the X Elite?...
It's just another build that I need to schedule and optimize for...
I hope they have a huge gpu boost with coming years. 4.6 tera is cool for a soc but that is a lowend gpu. They need to double it.
I wonder if this was one of those designs that used to be on an N3 family of node before they switched to N4 because they were worried about possible delays.
Qualcomm is releasing the Snapdragon quickly before the other vendor's normal 3rd quarter release cadence. They are trying to capture mindshare while the competition is not yet on the field. In a few months, all the big guns will release their 3rd quarter products and Qualcomm will not compare so favorably. As for Windows, it's far older than anybody else and it is heavily intertwined with Intel and AMD. It will take time for Windows to run seamlessly on the ARM stuff. What a lot of people are missing is that Intel and AMD are not sitting idle. They are working quite hard to leverage their complex architectures as they transition to AI and improve their energy efficiency.
What I'm wondering more than how well Windows will work on it is what the level of Linux support will be. ARM devices are generally plagued by needing custom kernels and stuff.
Guessing at the L2/L3 cache sizes.
6MB L2 per 4x core cluster + 24MB L3?
Itr was interesting. Gary Explains hat brought the Message maybe a year ago to me. Not long ago he gave some information to compare the M4 and the Snapdragon 12.
Its fascinating hoch much the size (now 3.5nm) was reduced.
Because of the Snapdragon I expect some surprises from Apple on the M4 Notebooks.
You gave me a detailed background information. Thank you.
Please a comparison between the X Elite and the m4
As a Mac OS user I welcome the competition.
Maybe that's why m4 released so fast
So it's positive to have competition
@@User9681e And its even more positive to finally kill the scam company (new Boeing of chips) Intel that delayed evolution for at least 2 decades!
@@User9681eIt's more likely (imo) that M3 gen was delayed in addition to N3B being more expensive than N3E. So once they finished the new designs on a cheaper process, bring them out as fast as possible to save on cost
Great video!
i'd love a detailed compare between m4 and the x elite die shots
As always, great video! I think nivia will undershoot their performance hype. I hope they don't but I expect their 2nd gen chips to be great.
Hey bro compare Apple M4 vs Apple M3 and Snapdragon X Elite chip in detail
I want them to make a low end version too equivalent to intel i3, haven't heard such an announcement yet!
Thank you for this
you’ve earned a sub 🙏
Thanks 🙏
I just bought the Asus Zephyrus G14 2024 version a few days ago. I’m wondering should I take it back and preorder the Galaxy Edge with the Snapdragon X Elite. I love the G14 because it feels so premium and it allows me to game when I want, and the battery life is not bad. It has the AMD Ryzen 9 8845HS and the Radeon 780M and the discrete NVIDIA 4060 GPU. My questions are does the Snapdragon X Elite allows gaming on Steam? Will my Steam games work? Qualcomm uses the Adreno GPU, so I am not sure of the compatibility. I like the reported battery life of the Samsung Galaxy Edge. Can someone please help with my decision making?
Great Video.
It all started back in the 1980's when Acorn could not get a better CPU than the 6502. Or rather, a CPU that was enough of a step up to make it worthwhile. Then they made the Acorn Risc Machine. That is where it started.
there's a post about Oryon's LLVM parameters from 4 days ago (on Chips and Cheese), describing what its architecture is likely to be.
Babe wake up! a High Yield video dropped!
Can't wait to be able to buy this laptop for Linux desktop....
was waiting for u video on this.
In regards to ARM on Desktop (and in the DIY Space) I hope to see a renaissance of Micro-ATX and ITX motherboards being shipped with permanently mounted CPU/GPU/NPU or SOC's to target the budget market and made available to more than just the Industrial PC Sales Channels. Something similar to what Intel (back when they made/sold boards) and Asrock did with Atom CPUs. If the Retail/DIY marketplace is offered a 12+core ARM SOC based ITX board with 2x DDR5 Memory Slots with 96GB to 128GB Memory Support, an x16 PCIe Slot, Onboard 10Gbit Nic, Wifi 6, HDMI + DP, HD Audio, ample USB connections that include Thunderbolt capabilities (with Display) on at least 1 USB-C Port, It would be difficult to ever build a full sized PC ever again.
I thought architecture licenses were cheaper than off the shelf cores? The off the shelf core offers arm architecture + cpu design. Why would it be more expensive to license only the architecture?
Linux support is already there too, will be interesting to compare between the two OSs
isn't qualcomm x elite and 8 gen 4 based off of RISC-V?
Depending on the quality of the Linux support in the next six months, my next laptop may have an ARM chip inside. We are living in exciting times!
I can't wait for RISC-V to grow up and add further to the competition. The personal computing industry has been stagnant for so long. I'm glad things are heating up once again.
Excellent video, I also believe that Windows will have a difficult time keeping backward-compatibility through emulation while sustaining good performance especially given the number of OEMs they work with
For mobile I think low clock speed for save power and efficient if Idle and depend on the designs.
The X Elite is looking really impressive considering its N4P like the M2 and a first gen product. The Apple M4 will likely be faster and more efficient because of TSMC's N3E process. Nonetheless, the X Elite is still be a game changer for WoA. It will be interesting to see who can iterate on their architecture faster
There are rumors AMD wants to start making ARM CPUs.
Nice information
Thanks for the video. Switching to win/arm? Well, too late: I bought last month a new Zenbook OLED with an AMD Ryzen 7 8840HS to replace my previous one, bought in winter 2018 with a Intel Core i5-8265U: around 5 and a half year ago. So, I guess, it's going to have to wait until at least 2029 for the next one... maybe with Arm CPU, who knows...
The good news about Windows on ARM this time is that Snapdragon X Elite has a single type of cores. As can still be seen, Windows is still incapable of dealing with mixed core types like Intel's 12th, 13th and 14th gen and AMD's dual-CCD X3D chips. I mean, it's been ONLY almost 3 years since Windows 11 launched, promising to take good care of that.
Intel's APO also clearly suggests that Microsoft know what they are doing, perfectly scheduling all the games between P and E cores. And not wasting time on things like ads or forcing Edge down users' throat or stupid blacklists for actually useful programs. /s
TL:DR; all P-cores design of Snapdragon X Elite should help Windows' crippled scheduler. Hopefully their version of Rosetta 2 is also good enough, they had YEARS to do it well. And, most importantly, the arguably most used program nowadays - the Internet Browser - all major ones have full, proper ARM support. So all in all, good chances that Windows will work ok this time around.
I still think it's waay too much hype. But, hey, it should be at least entertaining to see the chips arrive and the tests coming in. Can't wait to see the Linux benchmarks too. I know it's hard to believe, but I'm not a Windows nor Microsoft fan nowadays.
Wondows will die along with x86
Not true. In fact it’s ahead of Linux last i looked
They want to do a second M1 launch thing. No one will ever beat apple on this. Freaking amazing move, change the entire world of computers.
very excited
I need a new laptop and I am confused whether to go with Snapdragon Based laptop on arm or to buy meteor lake based laptop just for casual day to day use
Please elp
Computex is in two weeks, wait until then to see what's best.
I was excited about Qualcomm's first attempt at a laptop APU until somebody raised the huge red flag pointing to its probably disappointing actual Gen 1 performance:
The Snapdragon X Elite offering from ASUS will be a Vivobook.
I am cautiously optimistic about this chip when keeping semi-accurate report
Well can only wait and see the 3rd party benchmark anyway
Especially given that Samsung has had a history of allowing their chips to reach higher boosts for longer while running benchmarking applications. I also would really like to see power draw under load for their single core boosting. as they seem to be pretty transparent that they achieve such high single core performance by boosting the heck out of two cores.
We know about int8 but how about bf8 and fp8 ? 🤔
I am running Windows 11 for ARM64 in a parallels vm on my Mac Studio, and it runs just fine. I only paid for the license because the app software I wanted was available for arm64, so I never had to deal with amd64 emulation here. Everything works great. I mean, it's still windows, which sucks in it's own way, but the app works.
Hands on with the devices. They are fast.
Why are you saying they can't optimize windows for arm? I've been using it on M1 and M3 MBP via parallels desktop. On the m3, geekbench benchmarks (single core) are better than native Ryzen 5800X. What's suboptimal there? Performance is really, really good.
It’s pretty simple. Apple built Rosetta to do translation from x86 instructions to ARM. Swift which runs most Mac apps was already optimized for ARM processors because iPhones/iPads had the ARM chips for years. So many companies that developed for Apple products had a relatively easy transition when compiling to target ARM based Macs.
Microsoft doesn’t have any of that at this moment and their OS has an even larger technical debt connected to x86 than Apple did at the time. The sheer number of business apps, system utilities and legacy code running on an untold number of versions of different C languages and .NET builds makes this much harder for Microsoft. Backwards compatibility will be so much more challenging for them. Better performance isn’t simply running their OS efficiently on ARM it is going to be about writing a translation layer that can efficiently run a couple decades of consumer/business apps that weren’t built to run on ARM. You can run apps on Windows with really old C and C++ code. It’s not trivial to handle all the edge cases.
Apple just didn’t have these challenges.
@@hatonafox5170 Microsoft Windows (the code base starting with NT in about 1991) has always been cross CPU. They have had ARM64 Windows running for at least 8 years (not released as a external product). They had Windows running on the original Qualcomm ARM64 server chips (canceled by Qualcomm during the Broadcom potential acquisition), and the Marvell ARM64 server chips (canceled by Marvell during the pandemic when it was decided selling embedded processors to the 5G base station companies was easier than selling into data centers), and the Ampere server chips (which are currently in production on Azure), and Microsoft's own ARM64 server chip based on ARM cores/fabric/io controllers (which from what I read on the Internet is currently in Azure beta). The OS kernel code is basically the same between the server/cloud and desktop/laptop OS flavors (different build options and somewhat different add on components). Microsoft has already made .Net ARM64 runtimes, so a large percentage of .Net C# apps will just automatically work efficiently on ARM64 due to the magic of just-in-time code generation. Running all those old apps via translation may be fine, as the translated performance on a modern CPU may exceed the performance they originally had on older CPUs. MSFT has also added a bunch of support to reduce the pain for developers migrating to ARM64, like the ability to have mixed architecture processes. I think a problem Microsoft has had in the past was the potential revenue from improving ARM64 support was small compared to the potential revenue from improving x64 support, so justifying the engineering expense has been difficult from a business viewpoint. I think they may have reached sufficient critical mass on ARM64 specific code (things like a x64 emulation layer) that the incremental cost to support both x64 and ARM64 has diminished. It's not clear IHVs (Independent Hardware Vendors) are prepared for ARM64 Windows, the third-party driver support for ARM64 Windows is poor. For many USB devices it does not matter as they are USB class conforming and use the generic drivers. Desktop systems with ARM64 Windows would be rather more problematic, like I can't offhand think of a single PCIe Ethernet NIC that has ARM64 Windows drivers except the higher-end server oriented Mellanox (now NVidia) NICs. Many/most drivers on Windows aren't owned by Microsoft, they come from IHVs, so unless the engineering cost can be justified, IHVs may not do the incremental work for ARM64 binaries. For most drivers it's a small amount of development work to support ARM64, but does basically double QA. The weakly ordered memory-model of ARM does not always run code that works fine on strongly-ordered Intel/AMD processors. This is very different than the ARM64 driver situation on Linux where most drivers are part of the kernel tree, so get built with ARM64 kernels (although perhaps not well tested so things like memory model differences will cause driver failures). I own what must now be a 5 year old Lenovo ARM64 laptop, and it's Windows version is as up to date as my x64 laptops, so think Microsoft and some OEMs have already worked out ARM64 ongoing support. I've been doing mostly low-level Windows ARM64 development/debugging for 6 years now (and Windows low-level development for 25+ years), so have seen the maturing of Windows ARM64 up close.
Its pretty simple, microsoft is lazy, also use box86
because microshit software engineers are complete rettttaaarrddds
@@hatonafox5170 the langauges aren't really relevant. What's relevant is that macOS has much less abandonware written for it (legacy code that is no longer maintained). This means that in order to get "all your favorite apps" working natively in macOS, you may only have to convince 100 major application developers to get with the program. In Windows land, legacy software is rampant, so chasing down every single "Dunder Mifflin's custom business software contractor" to fix all of their code for the new architecture is basically a fool's errand; there are tens of thousands of people / organizations that would need to take action.
I'm very excited and hopeful that those chips succeed. An ARM laptop that can run Linux natively would be a gamechanger for a lot of people, who, like myself, have no choice but to use MacOS now, due to the insane power efficiency of M-series.
And success of Windows on ARM will eventually lead to more consumer and low-end server hardware based around ARM, which is wonderful for healthy competition (and most importantly my power bill).
i know the DIY market is a small fraction of the market Qualcomm are aiming for, but i really wish they make a socketed version with LPCAMM memory for the desktop and upgradeable laptop segments, imagine an "Advanced/Acorn RISC Machines" (QC don't like calling it ARM) Framework laptop
so how does this thing compare to amd 8040 zen ai???
10:30 we know that without all the legacy baggage ARM can win in multi-threaded performance. One tiny problem though: the software doesn't scale as well as slapping many CPU cores on the chip. And where scaling is possible, it is often hard to do right. Purely computational workload? Oh you better not lose all advantage to thread synchronization! etc.