@@maxiapalucci2511 The word "Biblaridion" consists of 3 diminutives stacked on top of each other ("-ar", "-id" and "-ion"), so it essentally means what the guy said
@@everlyw7892 It's way more complicated. 1. They use the existing form of Cyrillic since 1940 and yes, it does have additional letters. 2. They have decided to move from Cyrillic to Latin in about 2012 and in 2017 the new official alphabet appeared with intension to transit slowly from one system to another. From 2017 until 2025. 3. In January 28th 2021 they came up with a revised Latin based alphabet and again decided to move slowly from one system to another, now the timeframe is from 2023 till 2031. Facepalm. However, although the Cyrillic alphabet is not only in use, but is still official, 1st Latin alphabet is in use and is official as well and is riting Why do you write Kazakh in Cyrillic, but Russian in Latin?" the idea is why the Cyrillic is used for a Latin writing language and why the Latin is used for a Cyrillic righting language.
I made something similar in one of my projects, but sort of backwards. I made a "consequential aspect" (may have a different name in formal linguistics), so you'd say "I ran (indicative) I fell (consequential). Now, it's called the consequential because it usually indicates that, consequence, but occasionally it can be used for sequential actions, as long as they are somehow related
Aww you made a typo in the first turkish example, it should be "Koşup düştüm" not "Koşıp düştüm" And at 8:55, "olsa" means something like "if it is", "Ben olsa-m asla gitmem" would mean "If it were me, I would never go", if you wanted to say "always" you would use "her zaman". The sentence should be like "Ahmet'e gelince, her zaman çok düşüncelidir." And adding a pronoun before "her zaman" never hurts, "Ahmet'e gelince, o her zaman çok düşüncelidir."
I’m so glad you did this because I randomly threw in converbs into a language without really understanding what they do. But seeing this makes me know that it was the right thing to do. Now to start applying them properly!
I suggest that you provide the samples written in hangeul for Korean. In 3:50 I have no idea which suffixes are the ones shown and in 5:19 I think the phrase that was intented to be written was: 오늘 시간이 없으면 다음에 만나요. The standardized transliteration for that would be: "oneul shigani eopseumyeon daeume mannayo". Alternatively, some people use "ô" and "û" instead of "eo" and "eu" to represent ʌ and ɯ.
as a korean learner I second this. if not hangul, if it could at least be standard romanization instead of the convoluted yale (＞﹏＜) it would already make recognizing the words easier
Yeah, but i can understand why Bib uses this version over the standard as most linguistic texts tend to use the Yale system which is neither of the two you mentioned. The Yale system always confuses me when i attempt reading any texts about korean.
-기 + 에 = -기에 -ㅁ + 으 + 로 = -므로 -며 + ㄴ + 서 = -면서 the second one has an epenthetic vowel that is part of -으로 and not -ㅁ like it seems like in the example A year later and I've come to revert my stand, though I'd much rather people who produce papers looking at korean linguistics specifically put 한글 beside their yale, putting just the yale makes sense for a video like this
3:33 The adverbial clause will be: Larkī hanste *hue* chāi pī rahī hē. Where “hue” is a form of the verb “honā” meaning ‘to be’, but here it serves the function of ‘while’.
Fantastic video! But just a heads up, the colours you use at 9:40 for SIM.CONV and SEQ.CONV are basically indistinguishable to a lot of colour blind people, making it hard to match the parts of the original Chaghatay to the parts of the translation
Greetings from Russia!!:)) As a man who is gaining a degree at interpreting, translation and overall linguistics, I consider your channel to be examplary in terms of how people should be told about linguistics and conlanging specifically. The question I would like to ask you about is whether you are thinking of writing a book about conlanging, where all your experience would be depicted coherently and consicely within a one book, or not. What do you think of that idea?:)
Ohh I believe in czech we used to have a very similar feature to this called the transgressive. The transgressive is a verb form used like an adverbial for actions happening during or before the main clause. It fell out of usage for its complicated conjugation and is nowdays used only literary or in idioms. Many of the transgressives changed into different word forms, like into adverbs. It's incredible tracing back some of the words etymologies. sedět - to sit sedíc - sitting (adverbial) sedící - sitting (adjective) sedící - the one/those sitting vědět - to know věda - knowing vědoucí - knowing vědoucí - the one/those knowing
9:38 One of my main conlangs actually does follow these guidelines. The only weirdness is that the language never distinguished between finite and non-finite verbs, and adding case-markers to verbs was part of a general tendency of not distinguishing much between nouns, verbs, adjectives, or even somewhat adpositions. Also, the language also uses co-verbs very heavily, like Chinese, and they are the original basis of most of those case markers in the first-place, so adding a "case marker" onto a verb, is usually kind of like treating that verb as the object of another verb, which is basically an auxiliary verb, making my language's converbs actually kind of like coverbial phrases with auxiliary verbs (a "coverbial phrase" just being a second verb phrase stuck after or before the main one with no explanatory conjunction or morphology, like the Mandarin example you gave at the beginning).
in turkish, it's actually "koşup düştüm" not "koşıp" because we have sound harmony: o-u a-ı e-i which means: kOşUp düştüm. ağlAyIp güldüm. eğlEnİp konuştum. i love sound harmony.
Thanks for the awesome video! One comment though: the "Kanuri" example at 7:25 is definitely from Beria/Zaghawa, not Kanuri. I'm currently writing my MA thesis on Beria converbs and can confirm that this example is given in the Beria reference grammar by Jakobi & Crass (2004).
IKR Oh Turkish, Turkish, wherefore art thou Turkish? Deny the Sophia and renounce thy straits. Or if thou wilt not, be but sworn my linguistic interest, and I will no longer be a Byzantophile!
Turkish doesn't have that few, "-ken", -"eli", -"esiye", "-meden", "-diğinde", "-ince", "-ip", "-erek", "-cesine", "-e ...-e", "-meksizin" and "-dikçe", to name the most common. So, maybe just a dozen from those examples, but certainly more than 4. Also, it's "koşup", not "koşıp". "-ip" has 4-way vowel harmony ;)
just added this to a lang with casestacking a load of them come from the locative: the first converb shows that 2 actions happened at the same time sit-o sampa "to run and think" the 2nd shows a conditional and needs a perfective sit-uk sampa "if one runs, then one thinks" the 3rd comes from the ablative + locative and shows that they transitioned into each other, like how "to run and fall" actually doesnt happen at the exact same time, but u transition from the running into falling sit-ō ora "to run and then fall" the ablative on its own shows that one verb happened after another sit-e ora "to fall right after running" the 4th one is the locative with the genetive and shows that they happened at the same place sitōn ora "to fall where one runs" the genitive on its own states that one verb stopped entirely and is seperate from the other sin-no ora "to ran, and later fall"
0:00 Intro 0:51 What is a converb? 2:01 How do converbs come about? 4:19 Types of converbs 6:35 Meaning of converbs 7:04 TAM and participants in converb clauses 7:31 Evolution of converbs into new constructions 9:11 Summary
0:47 It should be "Koş*up* düştüm", NOT "koşıp düştüm". This is because the first vowel is a rounded back vowel, and thus the affix must have a rounded back vowel as well. 6:25 Turkish has far more converbs than just four, there is -diğinden (Causal) -meden (anterior converb) -asiye ( instrumental converb) -dıkça (subjunctive converb) and more.. Also, -arak is an imperfective converb, NOT perfective. Turkish actually has something like 15 converbs. 8:55 And as someone else said, olsa means "if .. is/was" not always.
Dear Biblaridion, Thank you so much. Your videos have helped me develop my conlang, Qrat. You’ve taught me that languages don’t have to be rational whatsoever, and sometimes they are. So Anlahofnanŕxug nanqo’. (Thank you)
I'd like to point out an error in 6:50. For "-se" to be interpreted as a simultaeneous action, the latter verb shouldn't take the commanding form. For example, it can be "Haeka issese ilul machyetta (I *finished* the work while the sun was up)", just not the commanding "(you should) finish the work -" that the "-ela" at the end implies.
@Hernando Malinche if you're talking about high school japanese teachers, yeah they're typically not the best. but you use 丁寧語 with strangers and people with authority above you, which includes parents, teachers, most coworkers, public service people, etc. you basically only use タメ口/砕けた日本語 with friends and kouhai, especially kids. and please dont flex a skill as simple as conjugating verbs correctly... that's embarrassing to see lol
@Hernando Malinche @Hernando Malinche Looks like you misunderstood my comment. Let me explain again: I was hypothesizing he originally wrote 買いました. But then he wanted to use short form instead, and mistakenly just deleted the ました suffix and put た at the end. Make sense? Also, don't say "I know" to my comment when you very emphatically have shown you didn't know...
At 8:11 the Tamil sentence has 'tirandu' which has a perfective converb, not imperfective. Tirandu means after opening. So it is 'Raaja for Kumar/to Kumar after opening the door, gave' literally. Tirandukondu is the imperfective converb.
That was strange when you showed the kazakh example in cyrillic script despite it is no longer written in it, and example in russian in latin script despite it is written in cyrillic. Anyways, good video!
@ Biblaridion 3:50 It should be "-m+-ulo=-mulo(-ㅁ+-으로=ㅁ으로)", not "-mu+-lo=-mulo". By the way, I didn't know that -myense(-면서) was -mye+-n+-se. Schools taught me that it was a single morpheme. I've been deceived the whole time. (edit: typo)
In a language that implements converbs, are all "conjunctions" in that language derived from them or can there also arise a separate class of words that also functions as conjuctions?
They will have both. I think there is simply no NEED to create conjunctions and prepositions from converbs, especially if they are long. Consider converbs an opportunity rather than a necessity. Converbs are useful to generate words that convey complicated meanings like "concerning", "on behalf of", "despite", "even though", "according to" etc. The easy stuff (depends on the language) is likely already expressed by some endings/ prepositions/postpositions.
Japanese uses a lot of converbs come to think of it, whatever type of converb a verb in -te form is easily inferred from context. While saying 風を引いて仕事を休んだ isn't directly saying the word for because, it is inferred because they caught a cold, they took a break from work. More literally it's like, "I caught a cold and took a break from work" but it is inferred to be causal
In the case of Mandarin, there are multiple strategies to deal with that. Instead of just 我跑步摔倒了, you can say: 我 跑步 时 摔倒 了 I run while fall com.particle While running I fell down. Or 我 跑步 的时候 摔倒 了 I run when fell com.particle I fell down when I was running. Though I don't think these are converbs
I find 我跑步摔了 perfectly acceptable. It might even be contrapted further, 我跑摔了。我跑步的时候 (or just 时）摔倒了 sounds more like “I fell when I run” rather than “I ran and fell”. Interestingly, this sentence literally mean “My running time fell”
This is less about converbs, but I have a question: So, I have uvuvlars in my language, and I want to get rid of them. How could I do it: Could I just simply merge them with my velars, or should it be more complicated than that?
I've never realized before, that Polish "robiąc/zrobiwszy" adverbial participles could be analyzed as converbs and that similar forms could be found in some Siberian langugages for example... wow!
If you have a large set of locative cases, and use ablative to construct the converb meaning "while", then you can use ablative and allative to mean "until" and "after".
1:56 reminded me of Japanese, and then the next image labeled Japanese as having converbs (though I imagine conventional teaching would call these morphemes "particles" rather than suffixes).
If you're not getting your hair cut, you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg. You simply collect his note before lunch, after you've done your scripture prep, when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes onto the lower peg, greet the visitors, and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed.
Are converbs still applicable if you introduce relative clauses as arguments to an object like a sentence that says "I sailed the sea that I know has many fish"
3:24 "POSS-mother my" This got me excited at first because I thought it was expressing possession with a construct-state prefix that didn't encode possessor, followed by the possessor stated explicitly, which is something a conlang of mine does. However, line 37 of this text: archive.org/details/rosettaproject_kgo_vertxt-1/mode/2up , combined with it's German translation, clearly shows that I misunderstood the glossing: I thought that the "POSS-" prefix on the word "kòníimò" was showing that it possessed by the word "kàti", a case of head-marked possession. In fact, this language clearly uses dependent marked possession, and the "POSS-" prefix on "kòníimò" must actually be marking it as the agent of the verb (participle) "núufòŋ", i.e., "Love I at-dress being-sewed by-mother my.", where the "POSS-" is serving the role of the "by-" in my rough glossing. I also now realize that the bottom example sentence you gave also shows this purely dependent marking possession.
this video inspired me to make the abomination of a word: a'erucsoriei which is Daggonese for 'while running' (the infinitive form & base form is 'erucso')
@@turkoositerapsidi I'm not sure, but it seems much more likely that it's a mid tone. That would be pretty typical notation for that in African languages, and would also be IPA, and the language obviously marks all high and low tones. WALS classifies Kanuri as having only two tones, but that sort of of thing is often complex and even controversial, and it likely just means that mid tones can usually or always be considered allophonic. They do seem to be rather rarer than the other tones from what I've found.
Actually, I think what I've been looking at is a different Kanuri language or dialect, which has high, low, falling, and rising tones, (based on this word-list: en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Kanuri_word_list ), but the first person pronouns are wú (sing), and àndí (plural), not áī. Thus, the fact that WALS gives Kanuri only two tones doesn't make it that much less likely that the language in this video has three, which it what it looks like it has. Then again, maybe áī is not actually the main first-person pronoun and is instead a verbal marker, or maybe there are multiple first-person singular pronouns, probably not marking case, but perhaps marking something else like focus or tense, like in Wolof. (It's Nilo-Saharan, though, so not related to Wolof.) As for it being a different dialect or related language, maybe áī is related to àndí. Kanuri does apparently have several dialects/languages: Central, Manga, Tumari, Bilma, and Kanembu.
@@Mr.Nichan Well, in most languages i know about like Latvian, Lithuanian, Maori and romanisation of Japan, Arabic its used as lenght mark, as far as i have understood this.
@@turkoositerapsidi Yes, that is the original use of that symbol (the macron), first applied to Latin and Greek (though not at the time, I think), and that is what it means in all the writing systems you mentioned, but in IPA it's used for a mid-tone (and in Pinyin for a high tone, but that doesn't apply much outside of Chinese languages). Most Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo Languages are "relative" tone languages, having two or three pitch levels where only long vowels can have contour tones, and can be treated as pairs of consecutive vowels with the same quality but potentially at different pitch levels. This language obviously has two tones, and, from I've seen, it's more common for macron to be a mid-tone for tonal Sub-Saharan African languages. Also, usually, when both macrons and accents are used in a tonal language, and the macrons mark length, tone for long vowels is marked with accents on top of macrons, as is often seen in modern romanizations of Ancient Greek and Vedic Sanskrit (which both had pitch-accent inherited from Proto-Indo-European). In romanizations of those two languages, only high tones (pitch accents) are marked, so it's common (more common in fact) to see macrons without accents, but this language uses either an acute or a grave accent on every vowel that doesn't have a macron over it. That looks like tone-marking to me, and so it's a little weird that the vowels with macrons have no tone marking if the macron just marks length. Of course, the sample of the the video is very short, but WALS does list Kanuri as having a "simple tone system", (which means "essentially those with only a two-way basic contrast, usually between high and low levels", and it's latest source is about Manga Kanuri), and other romanized Kanuri I've found on the internet also seems to have diacritics over every level, which are mostly acute (á) and grave (à) accents, and it doesn't have enough different vowel qualities for the accents to be repeesenting differences in quality, so I think they must be tones. Thus, it would be somewhat surprising if tone was not being marked on long vowels. If one tone were usually unmarked, that would be the obvious tone for an unmarked macron, but this romanization seems to mark both high and low tones equally. (Maybe it's easier to type an acute accent over a macron then a grave over one, so long low tones aee unaccented for practical reasons, but that seems like kind of a stretch to me.)There is an outstanding vowel mystery from my perspective, though, which is how it marks it's two extra vowels out of the classic five. (This language has /i/ /u/ /e/ /o/ /a/ /ə/, and /ʌ/, according to Wikipedia.) It is possible that the macron is being used to represent a long vowel with a particular type of tone here. (E.g., it might be refering to a long falling tone if that is the only contour tone and especially if all long vowels have falling tones.) I just think it's more likely to mean what it does in in IPA here, which is a mid-tone.
Although modern Chinese does not have it, Classical Chinese did have a multifunctional converbial particle 而 /*nə/. It can be used as imperfective converb: 公入而賦 the duke was chanting while entering (the tunnel); as perfective converb: 生桓公而惠公薨 (she) gave birth to the Duke Huan, and later the Duke Hui passed away; as sequential converb: 取其禾而還 (the troop) harvested their crops and then marched back; as concessive converb: 寵而不驕 being spoiled but never getting arrogant; as causal converb: 乃縊而死 and then hanged himself and died; and conditional converb: 子產而死，其誰嗣之？If Zichan dies some day, who would be his successor. For most of these usages, the particle is attached to the end of the converb clause, except where it is used as conditional converb, in which case, the particle is injected in between the subject and the predicate of the converb clause.
@@jh3q "деепричастия" is translated as "gerund" in all of my English-language Russian textbooks. Hence my use of scare-quotes, 'cause it clearly isn't the same kind of thing as an English gerund.
Yes, you could base your converbs on your verb or adverb conjugations if that's what you're asking. They tend to conjugate like other non-finite verbs, or like the verb in the sentence they modify.
one day i will become fluent in examplish
Simātsan: oh hell no
Lol
Me too, I like how it sounds too
@Guilherme Miranda Thandiespo number one!
Be careful its very grammar dense
examplish is the most complex language in existence. it has every feature that could possibly exist in human language
Examplish is the proto-language and these are its dialects
examplish is a kitchen sink conlang created by some godly figure that has infinite time and knowledge and can include all these features
it has been determined. examplish is the language of gods
It's the spiritual successor to thandian
Examplish is clearly just thandian.
I still can't believe how you're able to give so many examples in so many different languages
Books
@@StichyWichy21 a little little little book
@@iamasalad9080 ?
@@maxiapalucci2511 The word "Biblaridion" consists of 3 diminutives stacked on top of each other ("-ar", "-id" and "-ion"), so it essentally means what the guy said
Not anything to do with aliens or biospheres, but that doesn't change the fact that ima watch the shizzle outta this
DankMouse Dankisluv lol
Нельзя переходить улицу *читая* газету.
Why do you write Kazakh in Cyrillic, but Russian in Latin?
Good point
So that people who can't read Cyrillic won't confuse the two?
10/10 would cross the street while reading a newspaper xD
especially cause cyrillic is modified in kazakh, right??
@@everlyw7892
It's way more complicated.
1. They use the existing form of Cyrillic since 1940 and yes, it does have additional letters.
2. They have decided to move from Cyrillic to Latin in about 2012 and in 2017 the new official alphabet appeared with intension to transit slowly from one system to another. From 2017 until 2025.
3. In January 28th 2021 they came up with a revised Latin based alphabet and again decided to move slowly from one system to another, now the timeframe is from 2023 till 2031.
Facepalm.
However, although the Cyrillic alphabet is not only in use, but is still official, 1st Latin alphabet is in use and is official as well and is riting
Why do you write Kazakh in Cyrillic, but Russian in Latin?" the idea is why the Cyrillic is used for a Latin writing language and why the Latin is used for a Cyrillic righting language.
"two verbs... Iran"
"excuse me that's a noun" *I actually look at the screen*
"I fell"
2x speed may have been a mistake
Same! But I heard
"Iran & Eiffel?"
Excuse me bibby, those are nouns
Linguistics being explained at double speed is a scary thought
@@mgreen2541 *sets video at ×2 speed*
Sorry to break it to you, but... That's not how you say "Iran"
@@Sprecherfuchs I personally say ɪɹan but I've heard enough americans to hear the american pronunciation
I thought about using locative gerund constructions to describe simultaneous actions, good to know that's actually a thing languages do!
I have never thought that Turkish will be so useful to understand a topic like that which is too difficult for people who are not familiar with it.
Yeah guess we are lucky.
@@user-jh9nx6tl1n Are you Turkish?
@@user-jh9nx6tl1n Agglunation, many tenses (up to 18 i guess), features in this video make me feel lucky.
@@cantoprak7428 Yes, yes i am. Also i love vowel harmony and using "o" for he she it.
@@user-jh9nx6tl1n Vowel harmony is interesting but using only o for he, she, it does not impress me because that's just normal like others.
Wow, these converb having languages are really cool, if omly there was some word for this category... oo, I know! CONLA-
Ah, the burn!
I made something similar in one of my projects, but sort of backwards. I made a "consequential aspect" (may have a different name in formal linguistics), so you'd say "I ran (indicative) I fell (consequential).
Now, it's called the consequential because it usually indicates that, consequence, but occasionally it can be used for sequential actions, as long as they are somehow related
Aww you made a typo in the first turkish example, it should be "Koşup düştüm" not "Koşıp düştüm"
And at 8:55, "olsa" means something like "if it is", "Ben olsa-m asla gitmem" would mean "If it were me, I would never go", if you wanted to say "always" you would use "her zaman". The sentence should be like "Ahmet'e gelince, her zaman çok düşüncelidir." And adding a pronoun before "her zaman" never hurts, "Ahmet'e gelince, o her zaman çok düşüncelidir."
Danganronpa and Turkish? Truly a rarity.
@@fyorr110 hmmmm not really. I have 2 turkish friends that are into Danganronpa
@@-emir5484 Ah, ok. It was your pfp that made me think that. :P
@@fyorr110 well, I am into danganronpa tho your guess wasn't wrong lol. It's just that turkish danganronpa fans aren't that rare :P
@@-emir5484 Really? I didn't know they were. I think I've met one Turkish person irl who even knew Danganronpa. Oh well, I'll take your word for it :P
I’m so glad you did this because I randomly threw in converbs into a language without really understanding what they do. But seeing this makes me know that it was the right thing to do. Now to start applying them properly!
I suggest that you provide the samples written in hangeul for Korean. In 3:50 I have no idea which suffixes are the ones shown and in 5:19 I think the phrase that was intented to be written was: 오늘 시간이 없으면 다음에 만나요. The standardized transliteration for that would be: "oneul shigani eopseumyeon daeume mannayo". Alternatively, some people use "ô" and "û" instead of "eo" and "eu" to represent ʌ and ɯ.
as a korean learner I second this. if not hangul, if it could at least be standard romanization instead of the convoluted yale (＞﹏＜) it would already make recognizing the words easier
Yeah after looking at each example for like a minute or two each I could get some of them but at first glance I had no clue what it was saying.
Yeah, but i can understand why Bib uses this version over the standard as most linguistic texts tend to use the Yale system which is neither of the two you mentioned. The Yale system always confuses me when i attempt reading any texts about korean.
Exactly what I was thinking, what was that romanization-
-기 + 에 = -기에
-ㅁ + 으 + 로 = -므로
-며 + ㄴ + 서 = -면서
the second one has an epenthetic vowel that is part of -으로 and not -ㅁ like it seems like in the example
A year later and I've come to revert my stand, though I'd much rather people who produce papers looking at korean linguistics specifically put 한글 beside their yale, putting just the yale makes sense for a video like this
Feature focus is the best! Keep up this series!
0:45 actually it's "Koşup düştüm.".
3:33
The adverbial clause will be:
Larkī hanste *hue* chāi pī rahī hē.
Where “hue” is a form of the verb “honā” meaning ‘to be’, but here it serves the function of ‘while’.
Fantastic video! But just a heads up, the colours you use at 9:40 for SIM.CONV and SEQ.CONV are basically indistinguishable to a lot of colour blind people, making it hard to match the parts of the original Chaghatay to the parts of the translation
Biblaridion - posts something
Me - I am speed
Greetings from Russia!!:)) As a man who is gaining a degree at interpreting, translation and overall linguistics, I consider your channel to be examplary in terms of how people should be told about linguistics and conlanging specifically. The question I would like to ask you about is whether you are thinking of writing a book about conlanging, where all your experience would be depicted coherently and consicely within a one book, or not. What do you think of that idea?:)
Ohh I believe in czech we used to have a very similar feature to this called the transgressive. The transgressive is a verb form used like an adverbial for actions happening during or before the main clause. It fell out of usage for its complicated conjugation and is nowdays used only literary or in idioms. Many of the transgressives changed into different word forms, like into adverbs.
It's incredible tracing back some of the words etymologies.
sedět - to sit
sedíc - sitting (adverbial)
sedící - sitting (adjective)
sedící - the one/those sitting
vědět - to know
věda - knowing
vědoucí - knowing
vědoucí - the one/those knowing
9:38 One of my main conlangs actually does follow these guidelines. The only weirdness is that the language never distinguished between finite and non-finite verbs, and adding case-markers to verbs was part of a general tendency of not distinguishing much between nouns, verbs, adjectives, or even somewhat adpositions. Also, the language also uses co-verbs very heavily, like Chinese, and they are the original basis of most of those case markers in the first-place, so adding a "case marker" onto a verb, is usually kind of like treating that verb as the object of another verb, which is basically an auxiliary verb, making my language's converbs actually kind of like coverbial phrases with auxiliary verbs (a "coverbial phrase" just being a second verb phrase stuck after or before the main one with no explanatory conjunction or morphology, like the Mandarin example you gave at the beginning).
You should include examplish as a reward for a patreon tier :3
in turkish, it's actually "koşup düştüm" not "koşıp" because we have sound harmony:
o-u
a-ı
e-i
which means:
kOşUp düştüm.
ağlAyIp güldüm.
eğlEnİp konuştum.
i love sound harmony.
Just honest thanks for you conlanging guys making me discover Campfire. It's just so useful for lexicon storage and automatic romanization generation.
Thanks, this is really clear and useful! I understand a lot better now what you are doing in the conlanging series.
0:48 Shouldn't it be koşup, not koşıp?
Thanks for the awesome video! One comment though: the "Kanuri" example at 7:25 is definitely from Beria/Zaghawa, not Kanuri. I'm currently writing my MA thesis on Beria converbs and can confirm that this example is given in the Beria reference grammar by Jakobi & Crass (2004).
Damn every feature i like is in Turkish.
Turkish is a beautiful language.
Yeah after I started Turkish I had to physically restrain myself from importing all the Turkish into my projects
Muhteşem Siyanür la sen türksün tabii sevecen
@@janKanali birçok dil inceledim kanka ben, onlara göre konuşuyorum
IKR
Oh Turkish, Turkish, wherefore art thou Turkish?
Deny the Sophia and renounce thy straits.
Or if thou wilt not, be but sworn my linguistic interest, and I will no longer be a Byzantophile!
Turkish doesn't have that few, "-ken", -"eli", -"esiye", "-meden", "-diğinde", "-ince", "-ip", "-erek", "-cesine", "-e ...-e", "-meksizin" and "-dikçe", to name the most common. So, maybe just a dozen from those examples, but certainly more than 4.
Also, it's "koşup", not "koşıp". "-ip" has 4-way vowel harmony ;)
just added this to a lang with casestacking
a load of them come from the locative:
the first converb shows that 2 actions happened at the same time
sit-o sampa "to run and think"
the 2nd shows a conditional and needs a perfective
sit-uk sampa "if one runs, then one thinks"
the 3rd comes from the ablative + locative and shows that they transitioned into each other, like how "to run and fall" actually doesnt happen at the exact same time, but u transition from the running into falling
sit-ō ora "to run and then fall"
the ablative on its own shows that one verb happened after another
sit-e ora "to fall right after running"
the 4th one is the locative with the genetive and shows that they happened at the same place
sitōn ora "to fall where one runs"
the genitive on its own states that one verb stopped entirely and is seperate from the other
sin-no ora "to ran, and later fall"
typo at 6:35, "kaita" should be "katta" (買う→買った)
0:49 koşup*, not "koşıp" due to vowel harmony.
0:00 Intro
0:51 What is a converb?
2:01 How do converbs come about?
4:19 Types of converbs
6:35 Meaning of converbs
7:04 TAM and participants in converb clauses
7:31 Evolution of converbs into new constructions
9:11 Summary
0:47
It should be "Koş*up* düştüm", NOT "koşıp düştüm". This is because the first vowel is a rounded back vowel, and thus the affix must have a rounded back vowel as well.
6:25 Turkish has far more converbs than just four, there is -diğinden (Causal) -meden (anterior converb) -asiye ( instrumental converb) -dıkça (subjunctive converb) and more.. Also, -arak is an imperfective converb, NOT perfective. Turkish actually has something like 15 converbs.
8:55 And as someone else said, olsa means "if .. is/was" not always.
Dear Biblaridion,
Thank you so much. Your videos have helped me develop my conlang, Qrat. You’ve taught me that languages don’t have to be rational whatsoever, and sometimes they are. So Anlahofnanŕxug nanqo’. (Thank you)
Never clicked on a video so fast😁
You should make a video about vowel harmony, how to implement it and stuff
It's quite a simple topic that wouldn't make a video, but he has made a case study about it.
I'd like to point out an error in 6:50. For "-se" to be interpreted as a simultaeneous action, the latter verb shouldn't take the commanding form. For example, it can be "Haeka issese ilul machyetta (I *finished* the work while the sun was up)", just not the commanding "(you should) finish the work -" that the "-ela" at the end implies.
This is a good video but...
Does the way the the Korean examples are romanized bother any one else or is that just me?
Yale is more commonly used in the academic world so he is probably just sticking to his sources
4:23 Il that sentence, "desu" isn't the copula. It's the politeness marker because "abunai" is already a word that can be a predicate.
I think i get these things now
lol, I see you everywhere
Diego Olivares oof
1:29 couldn't you attach the converb to the noun to kinda mark the entire phrase? Something like "I fell *running to the shoply"
For the Hindi example at 3:31, Ladki(लड़की) means girl, not Larki.
6:35 I'm quite sure that should be "katta" instead of "kaita".
makes me think somewhere along the line it was "kaimashita" but someone chose the more casual version and missed the vowel
Yep. Kaita would come from "kakimashita", meaning "drew" or "wrote".
@Hernando Malinche In most contexts its better to use desu/masu instead of more casual (disrespectful) forms
@Hernando Malinche if you're talking about high school japanese teachers, yeah they're typically not the best. but you use 丁寧語 with strangers and people with authority above you, which includes parents, teachers, most coworkers, public service people, etc. you basically only use タメ口/砕けた日本語 with friends and kouhai, especially kids. and please dont flex a skill as simple as conjugating verbs correctly... that's embarrassing to see lol
@Hernando Malinche @Hernando Malinche Looks like you misunderstood my comment. Let me explain again: I was hypothesizing he originally wrote 買いました. But then he wanted to use short form instead, and mistakenly just deleted the ました suffix and put た at the end. Make sense? Also, don't say "I know" to my comment when you very emphatically have shown you didn't know...
I can’t wait for the next Alien Biospheres. I really enjoy that series. I hope there is a new one soon.
At 8:11 the Tamil sentence has 'tirandu' which has a perfective converb, not imperfective. Tirandu means after opening. So it is 'Raaja for Kumar/to Kumar after opening the door, gave' literally. Tirandukondu is the imperfective converb.
This is awesome, thank you!! These feel like they fit in one of my conlangs :)
Can’t wait for alien Biospheres part 8.
Oh can you just be patient?
Gojifan 809 is being jumped over by the quick brown fox.
ISO_639-3 I am being patient and just saying I’m excited for it.
Someday, I will understand what you just said, and it will be very helpful in my language building journeys.
Not gonna lie, I thought a converb was simply a verb from a conlang.
In case it's not too big of an ask, would you at some point be able to do a Feature Focus on lenition?
Me watching this and still needing a second go around because smooth brain time
It reminds me of the gerund form. It turns into an adverb that can express causality or simultaneity.
Gerund in many European languages is in fact a name for a converb. A true "gerund" is a simple deverbal noun meaning "an instance of X, an Xing"
Converbs have got to be the most useful feature for conlangs.
3:43 Conlang Critic, what are you doing here?
good to see someone else spotted that
That was strange when you showed the kazakh example in cyrillic script despite it is no longer written in it, and example in russian in latin script despite it is written in cyrillic. Anyways, good video!
@
Biblaridion 3:50 It should be "-m+-ulo=-mulo(-ㅁ+-으로=ㅁ으로)", not "-mu+-lo=-mulo".
By the way, I didn't know that -myense(-면서) was -mye+-n+-se. Schools taught me that it was a single morpheme. I've been deceived the whole time.
(edit: typo)
In a language that implements converbs, are all "conjunctions" in that language derived from them or can there also arise a separate class of words that also functions as conjuctions?
Depends on the language, but most will have a mix of converbs and a collection of conjunctions.
They will have both. I think there is simply no NEED to create conjunctions and prepositions from converbs, especially if they are long. Consider converbs an opportunity rather than a necessity.
Converbs are useful to generate words that convey complicated meanings like "concerning", "on behalf of", "despite", "even though", "according to" etc. The easy stuff (depends on the language) is likely already expressed by some endings/ prepositions/postpositions.
Japanese uses a lot of converbs come to think of it, whatever type of converb a verb in -te form is easily inferred from context. While saying 風を引いて仕事を休んだ isn't directly saying the word for because, it is inferred because they caught a cold, they took a break from work. More literally it's like, "I caught a cold and took a break from work" but it is inferred to be causal
wowie zowie woo woo woo! Say it with me!
In the case of Mandarin, there are multiple strategies to deal with that.
Instead of just 我跑步摔倒了, you can say:
我 跑步 时 摔倒 了
I run while fall com.particle
While running I fell down.
Or
我 跑步 的时候 摔倒 了
I run when fell com.particle
I fell down when I was running.
Though I don't think these are converbs
I find 我跑步摔了 perfectly acceptable. It might even be contrapted further, 我跑摔了。我跑步的时候 (or just 时）摔倒了 sounds more like “I fell when I run” rather than “I ran and fell”. Interestingly, this sentence literally mean “My running time fell”
This is less about converbs, but I have a question: So, I have uvuvlars in my language, and I want to get rid of them. How could I do it: Could I just simply merge them with my velars, or should it be more complicated than that?
If you wanna see what happened to uvulars in other, natural, languages, you could check out Index Diachronica
@@libbybollinger5901 Thnx
I've never realized before, that Polish "robiąc/zrobiwszy" adverbial participles could be analyzed as converbs and that similar forms could be found in some Siberian langugages for example... wow!
I love this community
Can I use converbs to express adverbs like “until” and “later”? If so, what cases can I use for each one?
If you have a large set of locative cases, and use ablative to construct the converb meaning "while", then you can use ablative and allative to mean "until" and "after".
@@2712animefreak What about "later"?
Love you Bib!
Ah, examplish, my favorite language.
1:56 reminded me of Japanese, and then the next image labeled Japanese as having converbs (though I imagine conventional teaching would call these morphemes "particles" rather than suffixes).
If you're not getting your hair cut, you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg. You simply collect his note before lunch, after you've done your scripture prep, when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes onto the lower peg, greet the visitors, and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed.
Are converbs still applicable if you introduce relative clauses as arguments to an object like a sentence that says "I sailed the sea that I know has many fish"
3:24 "POSS-mother my" This got me excited at first because I thought it was expressing possession with a construct-state prefix that didn't encode possessor, followed by the possessor stated explicitly, which is something a conlang of mine does. However, line 37 of this text: archive.org/details/rosettaproject_kgo_vertxt-1/mode/2up , combined with it's German translation, clearly shows that I misunderstood the glossing: I thought that the "POSS-" prefix on the word "kòníimò" was showing that it possessed by the word "kàti", a case of head-marked possession. In fact, this language clearly uses dependent marked possession, and the "POSS-" prefix on "kòníimò" must actually be marking it as the agent of the verb (participle) "núufòŋ", i.e., "Love I at-dress being-sewed by-mother my.", where the "POSS-" is serving the role of the "by-" in my rough glossing. I also now realize that the bottom example sentence you gave also shows this purely dependent marking possession.
I love the alien biospheres videos but ngl I prefer the language ones
Share this video with anyone you know learning Japanese please.
Conlanging video comment sections are the less attractive side of etymology video comment sections
упал убегая - fell when run away
упал убежав/убежавши - fell after run away
while*
_I want to become fluent in Examplish_
Sean hehe
this video inspired me to make the abomination of a word: a'erucsoriei which is Daggonese for 'while running'
(the infinitive form & base form is 'erucso')
"Conlang Showcase: Examplish" when?
7:21 Kanuri seems to have the same 1st person singular pronoun nominative pronoun as English. Coincidence? I think so.
Wasnt that ī, long i sound?
@@turkoositerapsidi I'm not sure, but it seems much more likely that it's a mid tone. That would be pretty typical notation for that in African languages, and would also be IPA, and the language obviously marks all high and low tones. WALS classifies Kanuri as having only two tones, but that sort of of thing is often complex and even controversial, and it likely just means that mid tones can usually or always be considered allophonic. They do seem to be rather rarer than the other tones from what I've found.
Actually, I think what I've been looking at is a different Kanuri language or dialect, which has high, low, falling, and rising tones, (based on this word-list: en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Kanuri_word_list ), but the first person pronouns are
wú (sing), and
àndí (plural),
not áī.
Thus, the fact that WALS gives Kanuri only two tones doesn't make it that much less likely that the language in this video has three, which it what it looks like it has.
Then again, maybe áī is not actually the main first-person pronoun and is instead a verbal marker, or maybe there are multiple first-person singular pronouns, probably not marking case, but perhaps marking something else like focus or tense, like in Wolof. (It's Nilo-Saharan, though, so not related to Wolof.)
As for it being a different dialect or related language, maybe áī is related to àndí. Kanuri does apparently have several dialects/languages: Central, Manga, Tumari, Bilma, and Kanembu.
@@Mr.Nichan Well, in most languages i know about like Latvian, Lithuanian, Maori and romanisation of Japan, Arabic its used as lenght mark, as far as i have understood this.
@@turkoositerapsidi Yes, that is the original use of that symbol (the macron), first applied to Latin and Greek (though not at the time, I think), and that is what it means in all the writing systems you mentioned, but in IPA it's used for a mid-tone (and in Pinyin for a high tone, but that doesn't apply much outside of Chinese languages).
Most Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo
Languages are "relative" tone languages, having two or three pitch levels where only long vowels can have contour tones, and can be treated as pairs of consecutive vowels with the same quality but potentially at different pitch levels. This language obviously has two tones, and, from I've seen, it's more common for macron to be a mid-tone for tonal Sub-Saharan African languages.
Also, usually, when both macrons and accents are used in a tonal language, and the macrons mark length, tone for long vowels is marked with accents on top of macrons, as is often seen in modern romanizations of Ancient Greek and Vedic Sanskrit (which both had pitch-accent inherited from Proto-Indo-European). In romanizations of those two languages, only high tones (pitch accents) are marked, so it's common (more common in fact) to see macrons without accents, but this language uses either an acute or a grave accent on every vowel that doesn't have a macron over it. That looks like tone-marking to me, and so it's a little weird that the vowels with macrons have no tone marking if the macron just marks length.
Of course, the sample of the the video is very short, but WALS does list Kanuri as having a "simple tone system", (which means "essentially those with only a two-way basic contrast, usually between high and low levels", and it's latest source is about Manga Kanuri), and other romanized Kanuri I've found on the internet also seems to have diacritics over every level, which are mostly acute (á) and grave (à) accents, and it doesn't have enough different vowel qualities for the accents to be repeesenting differences in quality, so I think they must be tones. Thus, it would be somewhat surprising if tone was not being marked on long vowels. If one tone were usually unmarked, that would be the obvious tone for an unmarked macron, but this romanization seems to mark both high and low tones equally. (Maybe it's easier to type an acute accent over a macron then a grave over one, so long low tones aee unaccented for practical reasons, but that seems like kind of a stretch to me.)There is an outstanding vowel mystery from my perspective, though, which is how it marks it's two extra vowels out of the classic five. (This language has /i/ /u/ /e/ /o/ /a/ /ə/, and /ʌ/, according to Wikipedia.)
It is possible that the macron is being used to represent a long vowel with a particular type of tone here. (E.g., it might be refering to a long falling tone if that is the only contour tone and especially if all long vowels have falling tones.) I just think it's more likely to mean what it does in in IPA here, which is a mid-tone.
Lmao in my language we would do 'the man ran, did fall down'
3:48 misâli
Was that a reference to jan Misali?
No, it's a word in a natural language
Would this be considered something like case-marking for verbs?
is "and" a converb? I am making a language with conjunctions words. Are they root words or do I have to make my own? Just wondering.
Wait, was that last example about the Sultan from the Bābornāmeh!?
Although modern Chinese does not have it, Classical Chinese did have a multifunctional converbial particle 而 /*nə/. It can be used as imperfective converb: 公入而賦 the duke was chanting while entering (the tunnel); as perfective converb: 生桓公而惠公薨 (she) gave birth to the Duke Huan, and later the Duke Hui passed away; as sequential converb: 取其禾而還 (the troop) harvested their crops and then marched back; as concessive converb: 寵而不驕 being spoiled but never getting arrogant; as causal converb: 乃縊而死 and then hanged himself and died; and conditional converb: 子產而死，其誰嗣之？If Zichan dies some day, who would be his successor.
For most of these usages, the particle is attached to the end of the converb clause, except where it is used as conditional converb, in which case, the particle is injected in between the subject and the predicate of the converb clause.
What are the fonts used in the video?
Nice to know I'm early for one of these.
What does NMLZ stand fore? 2:22
nominalization i think
In your Ancient Greek example you have the genitive marked as nominative. Just FYI.
Why did you write Kazakh with Cyrillic and Russian with Latin?(They both use Cyrillic)
When will Amharic feature in a Biblaridion video😧😧😧
Hm... do Russian "gerunds" count as converbs?
Does Russian have gerunds? It only has деепричастия, and I think they're closer to converbs
@@jh3q "деепричастия" is translated as "gerund" in all of my English-language Russian textbooks. Hence my use of scare-quotes, 'cause it clearly isn't the same kind of thing as an English gerund.
Logan Kearsley maybe, but for me (Russian is my native lang) it’s very weird to translate деепричастия to gerunds)
@@jh3q I find it equally weird, but it seems to be (or at least to have been) the standard vocabulary.
You should do a video about closed verb sets.
Can't i decide which converbs i will make based just on conjunctions?
Yes, you could base your converbs on your verb or adverb conjugations if that's what you're asking. They tend to conjugate like other non-finite verbs, or like the verb in the sentence they modify.
Big brain word video is me head above.
Examplish is just [REDACTED]
Looks awesome!
Japanese is using similar converb strategy
走って転んだ
hashit-te koron-da
run-ly fell-PERF.
May I add how awesome it is, that Campfire is a one time purchase, instead of a subscribtion?
0:45 It should be "Koşup düştüm." not "Koşıp düştüm."