I'm surprised you didn't mention the Mortis gods statues that Balin was standing on. He's looking for the place where the force was born. Looking for a way to change the path the force flows. When I saw that part; I thought I recognized the father, but I was sure once I saw the son. Even with the sister missing, nearly everyone recognized the Mortis gods. If there's a second 2; it's going to get crazy
I think sister essence is in Ahsoka body, since she save Ahsoka by sacrifice her soul for Ahsoka. An owl(Morai) 14:40 is also representative of sister too.
Ahsoka's owl, Morai, is a representation of The Daughter from Mortis. The Daughter sacrificed herself to save Ahsoka and Morai has been around since then.
I mean... i wouldn't call it random. It came out of the blue, sure, but it was overall a pretty important ark for the Skywalker-Saga and especially Anakin's story.
I don’t think this season was perfect, but it was DAMN close. Definitely one of the strongest entries into the Star Wars universe so far for me. I need season 2 like NOW
Rebels is not only my favorite Star Wars project, it’s my favorite entertainment project ever. I treated this show as a season 5 and it felt so fulfilling as a hugely invested fan for so long
I know you've probably heard this from someone on the Discord already... the statue that Balen was standing on at the end of the episode was The Father, there were statutes around him of the Son and the Daughter, but one of them was broken.
The strings you hear when the witches reanimate the Night-Troopers are very reminiscent of the opening strings in Danse Macabre. I doubt that’s unintentional
I have been *WAITING* for you to post this! I dig you lads! According to the Googlegods ~ *Huyang* , the Jedi Droid who trained Ahsoka Tano, is *25,000* years old. He was built around 25,020 BBY, shortly after the Prime Jedi founded the Jedi Order. Huyang has served the Jedi Order for centuries as a lightsaber architect, assisting Jedi younglings in constructing their own weapons. So yeah...older than Yoda... ~ALSO...Diana Lee Inosanto did *ALL* of her own stuntwork here. ~Ahsoka & Sabine will have to do more than train while stranded - they still have to deal with Baylan Skoll & Shin Hati.
Baylan is looking out to a mountain with light shooting upward. It is real subtle on the horizon. That is where the statue he was on is pointing to and probably where Bayland is heading to.
I was kind of surprised they didn’t realize who “Talzin” is and they didn’t realize the statues considering they said they’ve watched clone wars and rebels lol
“Shadows in the Starlight”… …when I heard Sabine utter those words, I nearly lost it. I really hope this whole thing pays off in a simply amazing way. A representation of each member of the Mortis family is there. Only one is missing and, I feel, she is coming. Either way…what a great ending.
I've read a little bit on her...Abeloth( The Mother)...Seems like the direction that Baylan was looking towards in the distance while standing on the Father's outstretched hand maybe where she is imprisoned...hope they do recast Baylan in order to continue this part of the story because I would like to see where this goes and I don't want to see this plot line thrown away.
I love this show. It introduces a bunch of interesting things, and new possibilities to explore. I’d like to see Ahsoka and Sabine’s adventures in this new galaxy. I’d like to see Ezra training Jacen. I’d like to see Baylan’s path. I want to know what the new threat is that Thrawn is gearing up to fight. I’m excited for Season 2. Rest in Peace Ray Stevenson, you will be greatly missed.
The book star wars bloodline has a whole thing about the greater galaxy finding out Anakin was Vader as a smear campaign on leia. Google says it takes place 25 years after ROTJ.
But what if the Gideon we saw wasn't the real one? I believe there was an episode with clones of Gideon in tanks, maybe one of them perished while the real one is alive?!
The bird was the representation of The Sister. The title that Asohka now has I believe. The Father is now Anakin and The Son I would imagine would be Starkiller
Can we please talk about how (hopefully) Ezra is going to train Jacen? Kanan’s padawan training Kanan’s son. 🥹😭 Also, I will literally pee if we end up seeing Gethzerion and Kyrisa on Dathomir. Kyrisa is my favorite dark force user ever.
My two cents is the Mando and Grogu movie is the trek to retrieve Ahsoka and Sabine (without using the space whales or Grogu learning to speak to them). I originally thought Grogu might rebuild the darksaber, but now think Sabine will end up doing that in Ahsoka season 2. Mandalorian season 4 will introduce us to Thrawn back and raising a ruckus as the Mandalorians race to prepare their world for another war that previews the movie confrontation. Ahsoka season 2 is the X factor for me - maybe they do eventually fix the ship on their own and return with the space whales, but as indicated, I think that is Mando and Grogu movie, so if that happens, what does Ahsoka do to help stop/slow down Thrawn in season 2? How powerful do her and Sabine become? And of course, what is in those crates Thrawn brought back? I assume it will be 2030ish before we have all the answers…..
I think there are more night sisters in the boxes - especially since their destination was Dathomir. I think the night sisters lent Thrawn their magic in return for him transporting all of them back to Dathomir, so they could be awoken - just as the 3 great mothers were awoken by Thrawn.
You have forgotten your lore. Mother Talzin was the leader of the Nightsister Dathomir during the Clone Wars series. The Blade is Talzinis is probably to honor the fallen, as in sure Thawte have ways of knowing what happened
Y'all really skipped the Mortis God statues, huh? The continuation of the Mortis arc this season was and has huge implications for the SW universe. In my mind, in ep5 it's implied that Ani has ascended to be the true chosen one, taking the role of the 'Father' (being able to control the light and dark side of the force to save the life of one he loves), Morai (the owl) implies Ahsoka is the daughter and him being here means this world is connected via the world between worlds. Finally, the statue of the Father pointing to a glimmering light in the distance suggests this is the original world of the Mortis gods, where they imprisoned and abandoned the Mother (this could be the source of night sister magic, too). Thrawn isn't a big-bad enough for Filoni's mandoverse movie, Abeloth is coming y'allll.
Ok my theory at the end is the statue has something to do with abeloth or the zeffo and im leaning towards the zeffo cuz a deleted scene had zeffo writing scene that was translated from the zeffo language from the first jedi survivor game
He is looking at statues of "The Father, The Daughter, and The Son" from the Mortis episodes of The Cone Wars. But I think that story also will tie into what you are talking about with the Zeffo.
on the subject of the galaxy knowing Anakin became Vader, it is tough to say but it does eventually become public that Vader was Leia's father which ends up largely tanking her political career in the book Bloodline but I believe that takes place well after this
If it is 1 movie or 3, at the end, I feel like Thrawn pulls together the remnant and that culminates at the battle of Jakku where Thrawn goes down with the SSD that crashed on Jakku. Leads things right into the sequel movies.
I loved this show, I can't watch Clone Wars OR Rebels (I try, and I try, but it bores me, it's not aimed at me, and I was old when it came out) I think that a lot of youtube reactors say that you need all this context, and I am here to say that it's not true, because Context Clues are a thing.
I think the protagonist for the movie should be Sabine (and low key I felt she was the protagonist of Ahsoka too). My conspiracy is still that the Mandalorian was meant to have rotating protagonists with Din, Boba Fett, Bo Katan, and Sabine, but Din and Grogu got to popular so they shifted gears.
my mayor question is how they will handle Luke, Han and Leia. I mean i love to see Ashoka, Ezra, Sabine and Din Jarin has the lead towards this conflict, but the OG team has to have some participation, they are at there peak at this time. Hope Filoni will hadle this well.
Didnt Moff Gideon like die-die? I mean, its hard to imagine him coming back. His part is done I feel. Shadow council is the threat that was established in his last episode - he tried to be replacement for Thrawn and failed. Then died in fire and had a chunk of smaller star destroyer type ship crash into him. Dont think he is coming back, unless he is some kind of clone xD
It may be counter-intuitive to say that Filoni is going to sideline Ahsoka for his movie but that's one of the major take-aways from this season. This show looks like it's going to be about new stuff in a new place. Thrawn's real canon "nemesis" has always been Hera so I'm assuming that she and probably Ezra are going to take part in Mando.
Here's my hope for the Filoni movies and Star Wars moving forward. Thrawn could perish in these next movies, or he could live, but I hope they break away from the Skywalkers in the future trilogy and use the Chiss (Thrawn's alien race) as the next new threat. Keep Ahsoka waylaid for Rey's timeline, keep Sabine and Ezra, I really want these characters to thrive and rise for this new trilogy and bring a New Mandalore vs The Chiss battle. I have high hopes for new epic action.
It seems like you guys haven't seen Clone Wars. Because some of the questions you asked are answered in Clone Wars. This show would make more since if you watched the Clonr Wars.
Guys, you really missed the bsckground where Baylen stood on the mountain... Yhe Father, the Son... and you barely recognized the owl.... Im a bit surprised as you guys are usually way more experts....
I am a little disappointed with this reaction. I am by no means a Star Wars nerd, but I know what I need to know. I didn't realise that these guys didn't know much though. They didn't get so many references here. It actually left me doubting now 😢
@@HeroesReforged Yeah but Sabine shouldn’t be able to use the force in the first place and she hadn’t ever moved a single thing in her life until 2 minutes prior.
@@thorneto2742 You seem to have missed the part that Sabine trained with Ahsoka for years in the OT. Rebels established that no matter how force sensitive you are, you need to be open to the Force and the world around you to access it. She finally did that and applied her training. She pushed him for like 4 seconds and STRUGGLED quite long to even pull a lightsaber, that ain't shit.
@@kevinzhang6623 I don’t think Sabine should be able to use the force period, it has nothing to do with training. You can’t just learn to use the force, you have to be born with the potential for it (Midiclorians or whatever).
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Mortis gods statues that Balin was standing on. He's looking for the place where the force was born. Looking for a way to change the path the force flows.
When I saw that part; I thought I recognized the father, but I was sure once I saw the son. Even with the sister missing, nearly everyone recognized the Mortis gods.
If there's a second 2; it's going to get crazy
She's not missing her statue is broken and that's symbolic of the state of the light side of the force
I think sister essence is in Ahsoka body, since she save Ahsoka by sacrifice her soul for Ahsoka. An owl(Morai) 14:40 is also representative of sister too.
@@mathza552 oh yeah, that's right I forgot about that. That's probably why Morai follows her.
Mother is coming. 🤫
@@jasonmarbach Oh shit, damnit why didn't I think of that?!?!?!
Talzin is Mother Talzin, head of the Night Sisters in the Clone Wars
Yes, the sword was in the Clone Wars
She's literally darth mauls Biological mother
@@dadpool78 I think she used it against Mace Windu...
Huyang is over 25,000 years old. Jedi lore (and canon book Brotherhood) says he arrived at the Jedi Temple one day in a blue box.
Ahsoka's owl, Morai, is a representation of The Daughter from Mortis. The Daughter sacrificed herself to save Ahsoka and Morai has been around since then.
A random arc about Force Gods in The Clone Wars just became the most important lore in all of Star Wars.
I mean... i wouldn't call it random. It came out of the blue, sure, but it was overall a pretty important ark for the Skywalker-Saga and especially Anakin's story.
It was also something from Legends, I believe.
I don’t think this season was perfect, but it was DAMN close. Definitely one of the strongest entries into the Star Wars universe so far for me. I need season 2 like NOW
Ahsoka Season 1 was great. Season 2 was confirmed earlier this year, so I can't wait for this show to return!
Rebels is not only my favorite Star Wars project, it’s my favorite entertainment project ever. I treated this show as a season 5 and it felt so fulfilling as a hugely invested fan for so long
Huyang is approximately 25000 years old, if anyone is curious.
...and he arrived in a blue box.
I remember the Sixteen Years of Darkness between Jedi and Phantom. I’m so happy we can see at least 10 years of goodness coming down the pike.
I know you've probably heard this from someone on the Discord already... the statue that Balen was standing on at the end of the episode was The Father, there were statutes around him of the Son and the Daughter, but one of them was broken.
The strings you hear when the witches reanimate the Night-Troopers are very reminiscent of the opening strings in Danse Macabre. I doubt that’s unintentional
Wow I can't believe I didn't realize that before, I definitely hear it
I have been *WAITING* for you to post this! I dig you lads!
According to the Googlegods ~ *Huyang* , the Jedi Droid who trained Ahsoka Tano, is *25,000* years old. He was built around 25,020 BBY, shortly after the Prime Jedi founded the Jedi Order. Huyang has served the Jedi Order for centuries as a lightsaber architect, assisting Jedi younglings in constructing their own weapons.
So yeah...older than Yoda...
~ALSO...Diana Lee Inosanto did *ALL* of her own stuntwork here.
~Ahsoka & Sabine will have to do more than train while stranded - they still have to deal with Baylan Skoll & Shin Hati.
Baylan is looking out to a mountain with light shooting upward. It is real subtle on the horizon. That is where the statue he was on is pointing to and probably where Bayland is heading to.
The day has FINALLY arrived!! So very excited to finally see this
No, most of the galaxy thought brave Jedi general Anakin Skywalker perished during order 66. Darth Vader was perceived by many as a droid.
Baylan was on a statue of the Mortis Gods.
I was kind of surprised they didn’t realize who “Talzin” is and they didn’t realize the statues considering they said they’ve watched clone wars and rebels lol
“Shadows in the Starlight”…
…when I heard Sabine utter those words, I nearly lost it. I really hope this whole thing pays off in a simply amazing way. A representation of each member of the Mortis family is there.
Only one is missing and, I feel, she is coming. Either way…what a great ending.
I've read a little bit on her...Abeloth( The Mother)...Seems like the direction that Baylan was looking towards in the distance while standing on the Father's outstretched hand maybe where she is imprisoned...hope they do recast Baylan in order to continue this part of the story because I would like to see where this goes and I don't want to see this plot line thrown away.
I love this show. It introduces a bunch of interesting things, and new possibilities to explore.
I’d like to see Ahsoka and Sabine’s adventures in this new galaxy. I’d like to see Ezra training Jacen. I’d like to see Baylan’s path. I want to know what the new threat is that Thrawn is gearing up to fight. I’m excited for Season 2.
Rest in Peace Ray Stevenson, you will be greatly missed.
12:27 this final move was so awesome
Really enjoyed the season. Enjoyed your reaction to it.
"Don't be a Thor, go for the head!!" 😄
Also, the way Agustin's Camera goes crazy at 28:58 is totally a deleted scene from Madame Web
The book star wars bloodline has a whole thing about the greater galaxy finding out Anakin was Vader as a smear campaign on leia. Google says it takes place 25 years after ROTJ.
thats cool. Makes sense Leia's political enemies would use that fact, if they ever found out.
It kind of gives her the freedom to leave the political life behind and full on form the Resistance.
I’m really surprised you guys missed the whole father son, mother thing with Baylen
GREATNESS, next season (hopefully) we see Ahsoka more playful/Joyful- that's all I want more of
Moff Gideon died in the explosion at the end of Mando S3. Sadly, because man I wanted to see him on the big screen.
But what if the Gideon we saw wasn't the real one? I believe there was an episode with clones of Gideon in tanks, maybe one of them perished while the real one is alive?!
"Space Twitter" 😂😂😂
My theory is that the Great Mothers lent Thrawn their magic in return for Thrawn transporting a lot of their people so they can repopulate Dathomir.
The bird was the representation of The Sister. The title that Asohka now has I believe. The Father is now Anakin and The Son I would imagine would be Starkiller
Can we please talk about how (hopefully) Ezra is going to train Jacen? Kanan’s padawan training Kanan’s son. 🥹😭
Also, I will literally pee if we end up seeing Gethzerion and Kyrisa on Dathomir. Kyrisa is my favorite dark force user ever.
So happy to have seen your reactions to this great show!
My two cents is the Mando and Grogu movie is the trek to retrieve Ahsoka and Sabine (without using the space whales or Grogu learning to speak to them).
I originally thought Grogu might rebuild the darksaber, but now think Sabine will end up doing that in Ahsoka season 2.
Mandalorian season 4 will introduce us to Thrawn back and raising a ruckus as the Mandalorians race to prepare their world for another war that previews the movie confrontation.
Ahsoka season 2 is the X factor for me - maybe they do eventually fix the ship on their own and return with the space whales, but as indicated, I think that is Mando and Grogu movie, so if that happens, what does Ahsoka do to help stop/slow down Thrawn in season 2? How powerful do her and Sabine become? And of course, what is in those crates Thrawn brought back?
I assume it will be 2030ish before we have all the answers…..
I think there are more night sisters in the boxes - especially since their destination was Dathomir. I think the night sisters lent Thrawn their magic in return for him transporting all of them back to Dathomir, so they could be awoken - just as the 3 great mothers were awoken by Thrawn.
You have forgotten your lore. Mother Talzin was the leader of the Nightsister Dathomir during the Clone Wars series. The Blade is
Talzinis is probably to honor the fallen, as in sure Thawte have ways of knowing what happened
No response to the mortis statues
Thanks to Adam, Hector and Agustin! 🌌
Imagine Ezra was a teacher at Luke's Jedi Academy and fought Kylo. Would be a PHENOMENAL scene/moment
I would argue we haven’t seen a truly OP version of Luke on screen… and Dave is chompin’ at the bit to show it on the big screen.
Question: Do you guys' plan on reacting to The Bad Batch S3 any time soon?
Y'all really skipped the Mortis God statues, huh? The continuation of the Mortis arc this season was and has huge implications for the SW universe.
In my mind, in ep5 it's implied that Ani has ascended to be the true chosen one, taking the role of the 'Father' (being able to control the light and dark side of the force to save the life of one he loves), Morai (the owl) implies Ahsoka is the daughter and him being here means this world is connected via the world between worlds.
Finally, the statue of the Father pointing to a glimmering light in the distance suggests this is the original world of the Mortis gods, where they imprisoned and abandoned the Mother (this could be the source of night sister magic, too). Thrawn isn't a big-bad enough for Filoni's mandoverse movie, Abeloth is coming y'allll.
Can't really "skip" something if we're watching the entire episode from start to finish.
I think Hera deserves to kill Thrawn. Two great military minds vs one another would be great. Also Hera definitely has a grudge with Kanan’s death
Ok my theory at the end is the statue has something to do with abeloth or the zeffo and im leaning towards the zeffo cuz a deleted scene had zeffo writing scene that was translated from the zeffo language from the first jedi survivor game
The one statue is The Sister but Ahsoka is there and it could be something She needs to stop more so then Thrawn
He is looking at statues of "The Father, The Daughter, and The Son" from the Mortis episodes of The Cone Wars. But I think that story also will tie into what you are talking about with the Zeffo.
They can have Alden back as Han, the Luke they had in Mando, and Billie Lourd as Leia
on the subject of the galaxy knowing Anakin became Vader, it is tough to say but it does eventually become public that Vader was Leia's father which ends up largely tanking her political career in the book Bloodline but I believe that takes place well after this
Are you guys going to be reacting to Superman and Lois season 3? I thought it was such a great season and I think you'd all like it.
Or Ezra meets Luke and Grogu.
I don’t watch all the Live Streams but has there ever been mention of the reason we never got the last episode of Echo?
If it is 1 movie or 3, at the end, I feel like Thrawn pulls together the remnant and that culminates at the battle of Jakku where Thrawn goes down with the SSD that crashed on Jakku. Leads things right into the sequel movies.
I loved this show, I can't watch Clone Wars OR Rebels (I try, and I try, but it bores me, it's not aimed at me, and I was old when it came out) I think that a lot of youtube reactors say that you need all this context, and I am here to say that it's not true, because Context Clues are a thing.
Are y’all going to finish the Bad Batch here on UA-cam or just in patreon?
Great reaction! Love the show! So excited to see where they go next! Thrawn!!!
I think the protagonist for the movie should be Sabine (and low key I felt she was the protagonist of Ahsoka too). My conspiracy is still that the Mandalorian was meant to have rotating protagonists with Din, Boba Fett, Bo Katan, and Sabine, but Din and Grogu got to popular so they shifted gears.
Awesome! Now post echo episode 5 reaction!! Been holding my breath for that one for months!!
You've already missed Freddie's cameo - his picture is on Hera'asdashboard.
my mayor question is how they will handle Luke, Han and Leia. I mean i love to see Ashoka, Ezra, Sabine and Din Jarin has the lead towards this conflict, but the OG team has to have some participation, they are at there peak at this time. Hope Filoni will hadle this well.
Do they just not understand Ahoska is where they need to be cause of the Balen and the Mortis Gods
I dont think they have seen all of AotC and Rebels to know about Mortis and Morai and all that....unfortunately lol
@@nickyutzy4788 You mean Clone Wars?
Do we get Abeloth?
The reaction the the ending was quite underwhelming from you three, the rest of the Galaxy went nuts lol
Did Adam forget Luke exists? Should Luke train Ezra? No, probably not. Could he? Yes
The Baylan story is so good and interesting, such a shame we never got to fully experience it. RIP Ray
No one for Ezra to train with are you kidding me.
Force ghost Anakin will be in S2 😁 chatting with Ashoka 😁😁😁😁😁
I can’t wait
Guys what you think about the Marvels movie? I didn't see it yet actually!
We did a full watch along on Patreon for The Marvels! Come check it out
It's not as bad as the raving 'anti-woke' crowd would have you believe, but it's also nowhere near as good as it thinks it is.
@@HeroesReforged okay I will,, thank u
AY JESÚS!!! 😂😂😂
With how great the Bad Batch looks, Luke and Leia‘s story should be continued in animation. Age is not an issue.
We know about 2 movies. Tha Mandalorian and Grogu (instead of season 4) and the Dave Filoni Movie. I think they will be two parts of a trilogy.
Didnt Moff Gideon like die-die? I mean, its hard to imagine him coming back. His part is done I feel. Shadow council is the threat that was established in his last episode - he tried to be replacement for Thrawn and failed. Then died in fire and had a chunk of smaller star destroyer type ship crash into him. Dont think he is coming back, unless he is some kind of clone xD
Best Star Wars show I have seen so far and one of the best sword fights ever.
It may be counter-intuitive to say that Filoni is going to sideline Ahsoka for his movie but that's one of the major take-aways from this season. This show looks like it's going to be about new stuff in a new place. Thrawn's real canon "nemesis" has always been Hera so I'm assuming that she and probably Ezra are going to take part in Mando.
Mother is coming. 🤫
Here's my hope for the Filoni movies and Star Wars moving forward. Thrawn could perish in these next movies, or he could live, but I hope they break away from the Skywalkers in the future trilogy and use the Chiss (Thrawn's alien race) as the next new threat. Keep Ahsoka waylaid for Rey's timeline, keep Sabine and Ezra, I really want these characters to thrive and rise for this new trilogy and bring a New Mandalore vs The Chiss battle. I have high hopes for new epic action.
I want Hayden to return as Ghost Anakin and help out ahsoka and them.
It seems like you guys haven't seen Clone Wars. Because some of the questions you asked are answered in Clone Wars. This show would make more since if you watched the Clonr Wars.
Guys, you really missed the bsckground where Baylen stood on the mountain... Yhe Father, the Son... and you barely recognized the owl.... Im a bit surprised as you guys are usually way more experts....
If Dave does Heir to the Empire, then Luke and Mara Jade and Princess L who take out Thrawn.
Rukh killed Thrawn, and he's dead in the Disney timeline so it's gonna have to be pretty different just from that
I’m Back…
Mandalorian season 4 will be a movie
The mandalorian and grogu
Can you react to Tales of the Empire trailer it looks really good!
Finally
Ezra can learn from Luke
Didnt watch Clone Wars so no Mortis Gods backstory knowledge I take it?
Or Ezra can meet up with Luke.
will you guys check out the fallout series
Yup!
Luke!!!!
They are different in tone and focus, but if you can watch a new hope without the prequels then you can watch Ahsoka without Rebels
Gold face storm trooper will kill Thrawn.
Why would you watch this if you know nothing about Rebels or Clone Wars
the s(b)ad thing, the actor of Balen died. This here in the show was the last role. So I´m afraid this storyarc will stay unfinished
Pfff, you don't even know Mother Talzin? 🙄
I am a little disappointed with this reaction. I am by no means a Star Wars nerd, but I know what I need to know. I didn't realise that these guys didn't know much though. They didn't get so many references here. It actually left me doubting now 😢
Ezra is Sexy Space Jesus 😂
you guys should react to better stuff like fallout
This show was very bad overall but Sabine using the force to push Ezra to the other ship was beyond ridiculous. I nearly turned the show off lol
Using the Force to assist moving something from one place to another is Force 101.
@@HeroesReforged Yeah but Sabine shouldn’t be able to use the force in the first place and she hadn’t ever moved a single thing in her life until 2 minutes prior.
@@thorneto2742 You seem to have missed the part that Sabine trained with Ahsoka for years in the OT. Rebels established that no matter how force sensitive you are, you need to be open to the Force and the world around you to access it. She finally did that and applied her training. She pushed him for like 4 seconds and STRUGGLED quite long to even pull a lightsaber, that ain't shit.
@@kevinzhang6623 I don’t think Sabine should be able to use the force period, it has nothing to do with training. You can’t just learn to use the force, you have to be born with the potential for it (Midiclorians or whatever).