I think the only time Galadriel was a warrior happened during the kinslaying at Alqualonde where she sided with her Teleri kin (and family) and fought against the Noldor, and this was based on Tolkien's last version of Galadriel in 1972/73. But really Galadriel's true power came from being born in Valinor during the Two Trees and then being mentored by Melian the Maia in Doriath for easily a few centuries. Galadriel has what we think of it as magic and this is her true weapon, but she uses it sparingly and only to defend others or defend Lothlorien. Galadriel does not seek out combat nor seek to start wars, but if no option is left then she will mercilessly destroy the minions of Sauron.
"I think the only time Galadriel was a warrior happened during the kinslaying at Alqualonde where she sided with her Teleri kin (and family) and fought against the Noldor, and this was based on Tolkien's last version of Galadriel in 1972/73." Slight correction to this bit. The inverse was actually true. That's the only explicit version Tolkien wrote of her where she *didn't* take part in the Noldor rebellion. In that version, she sailed across the sea with Celeborn prior to the rebellion, and arrived in Middle Earth a bit before Feanor. Rather, what we generally think of Galadriel's "canon" backstory, wherein she's a leader in the Noldor rebellion, began to get fleshed out in the 60s. It didn't quite seem to exist in any solid form at the time LotR was published.
Very interesting. As to the initial question as to whether she was Warrior, Mage or Elven Lady, I would say all three. With her being more the warrior during her early day, before the First Age of the Sun, i.e. the Defence of Alqualonde. Then learning sorcerous ways from Melian during her stay in Doriath during the First Age, such that at least by the end of the Third Age, if not before, she no longer needs physical weapons or armour. As for the Elven Lady part, to me she has always been that, as she was born into what was effectively the elven royal family.
There is no such thing as the "First Age of the Sun". The First Age began when the Elves awoke. Per LotR and The Hobbit the Sun was extant at the time (there is no Sun and Moon from the Two Trees in TH or LotR). I'm not sure how Galadriel being involved in one physical combat (the only one to take place in Aman that she could have been involved in), and perfectly in keeping with Tolkien's statement that elven-women in dire straits or desperate defence fought valiantly, but it was the elven-men who bore arms at need, would make her a warrior
I have no problem with the idea of Galadriel as being a "warrior princess" of sorts during her early years, including fighting to defend the Teleri during the 1st Kinslaying and continuing into the first years of the 1st Age. But by the time she left Doriath after studying under Melian for a few centuries, it seems to me the more martial aspects of her character would have been overtaken by her abilities in elven magic. So, what Amazon has described and shown to us seems somewhat out of place. But I have far, far greater concerns about the show than this. Great video though!
@@Tar-Elenion No, the First Age began with the rising of the Moon and the Sun, and the Awakening of Men in Hildórien. The Awakening of the Elves at Cuiviénen happened during the Years of the Trees.
@@istari0 No, it did not. This is evident from LotR: "The High-elven was an ancient tongue of Eldamar beyond the Sea, the first to be recorded in writing. It was no longer a birth-tongue but had become, as it were, an 'Elven-latin', still used for ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song, by the High Elves, who had returned in exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age." LotR App. F Notice how the Noldor return to Middle-earth, in exile, at the END of the First Age (i.e. the final ca. 600 years). Tolkien also directly states when the First Age began: "Those were the Days of Bliss. In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began." Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman CT notes:: "In the manuscript as it was originally written the Elder Days began with the Awakening of the Elves: 'Here begin the Elder Days, or the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar'; but 'the Elder Days' was struck out and does not appear in the typescript." War of the Jewels, Tale of Years Any number of the manuscripts published in Nature of Middle-earth e.g.: "First Age 1. Quendi awake in the Spring (144 in number)." "The First Age begins with the Awaking and ends with the Downfall of Angband." Also, in The Hobbit and LotR, the Sun and Moon are not created from the Two Trees. They exist when the Elves awake, go on the Great March, arrive in Aman and dwell there before the revolt of the Noldor.
Thank you for putting this forward. I am inclined to agree this is consistent with her character. Also, as for destroying Dol Guldur, I recognize Celeborn was the main commander, but I wonder if it is possible Galadriel came alongside him. Seeing that her "Amazon" status did not emerge until later, it makes sense that Tolkien would not have said so explicitly. Also, about there not being much information about her fighting, we don't get a lot from Elrond either in the Third Age, but I've never heard anyone object to his role as a fighter in The Hobbit films, even though he was not only a very powerful Elf as Galadriel was but also a healer. It is an interesting question, which I think is worth discussing and theorizing about. The problem, I think, is that too many people start inserting their politics into the discussion from accusations of it being "woke" or "feminist" or whatever, which I think serves as a barrier to discussion as opposed to examining the text itself. And now I should probably elaborate on how I think that accusation of Amazon being "woke" is very unfair. To be "woke", according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (I imagine other dictionaries say similar things) is to be "aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)". This is commonly also a derogatory term for "liberal", but I oppose the usage of derogatory terms to refer to people (and just to make my point, I personally lean toward political conservatism; however, I believe in keeping my politics and my Tolkien separate). So, to be woke, Amazon would have to be inserting their political and cultural "awareness" into Tolkien in a way it is not intended to be. One similar example of this that comes to mind is actually in The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian, a film that came out in 2008. Now, this film could be called "woke", because it ignored a statement in the series that seemed to be important to the author. Now, in that film, one of the main characters, Susan Pevensie, takes part in close-quarters physical combat several times. This is important since in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (the book, not the film), Father Christmas directly says, "Battles are ugly when women fight". We may agree or disagree with this statement, but the fact remains that by making a woman fight and portraying it in a positive or even morally neutral light, Disney and Walden Media are going against the intentions of C. S. Lewis and therefore making it "woke" in that way. However, unlike his friend, Lewis, Tolkien did not appear to share the same aversion to women ever participating in war. We can see this in characters (albeit exceptions to the usual rule of them being men) such as Éowyn, Haleth, and Emeldir. Further, let's remember Tolkien, unlike C. S. Lewis, was a Catholic and therefore would have admired and perhaps even prayed to St. Joan of Arc, who was a French military leader when it was unthinkable for a woman to do so. Further, Tolkien would have believed God Himself told her to do it. Now, you are free to call Joan a "woke icon" if you want (provided you are not Catholic), but the fact remains that Catholics see the saints as some of the holiest people who ever lived. With that in mind, I think it is consistent with Tolkien's mind to make someone who symbolically represents the Virgin Mary, the holiest human being save Christ Himself in Catholicism, it does not seem to me incredible to make Galadriel something of an "Amazon" or more Amazonian toward the end of his life. I'm not saying Amazon understood this in their show, since she's a genocidal maniac, but her using a sword itself seems consistent to me and definitely not "woke". One other point: I dislike with some passion the term "magic user" when referencing a Tolkien hero or heroine, and I imagine Tolkien would as well. Galadriel makes the point that Elven power and the deceits of Sauron are both called "magic", in spite of how different they are. If I had to call Galadriel anything, I would call her a wise counsellor and stateswoman. I might say the same of Elrond and possibly even Celeborn (who is at least said to be wise). Of course, both Elrond and Celeborn were warriors in some capacity and Elrond clearly used "magic" or Elven power which seems to me at least nearly as powerful as Galadriel's. So making Galadriel a shield-maiden does not seem too absurd either, considering what Tolkien wrote.
Excellent, thanks. Putting the relevant context-the fluid nature of the Legendarium over time-front and centre, plus the acknowledgement that anything we extrapolate about eg 2nd Age Galadriel is just that: an extrapolation from a choice of backstories.
Galadriel no doubt is elegant with a blade like all Noldor during war, but her goal was knowledge, and ruling a realm. She is the most powerful elf during the 3rd age and wiser than Feanor. Able to hold her own and even gain an upper hand in mind games with Sauron. She isn't a mage or warrior, SHE is Lady Galadriel.
Once again, your knowledge of canon and semi-canon is staggering. And I agree with your assessment. I hope Galadriel has a chance to grow in to the Kate Blanchett version we all know and love.
Galadriel did not wear or used Nenya during the Second Age since the keepers of the three Elven rings were not allow to wear or use the three Elven rings during the Second Age while Sauron still had the One Ring.
Not exactly true. The three eleven rings were created by the elves before Sauron created the one ring. The elves stopped using the rings when they fell under the influence of the one. It could be that they could wear them but not use them.
How many THOUSANDS of years old is galadriel? It would take 5 silmarillion textbooks to cover her history alone, unless she became this all wise and powerful queen by sitting on her ass?
Per the Annals of Aman she would be a bit under 2000 sun years at the start of the Second Age. By other later writings (where Tolkien is try to work aging rates) she likely is well under 1000.
Interesting! I was always sure she was clearly a leader and a founder of realms and a traveler. However i always thought that she did actually fight the two times she attacked Dol Guldur. Did she do anything else than being Melians pupil while in Doriath? Celeborn was a noble of that realm, he certainly fought and may have led defenders if attacked, even if we never actually hear of it. However... she became a mother in the early second age, and we are told elf women who had borne a child usually did not fight any longer. Does this they never fought? Maybe in extreme situations they still would. However... she is not mentioned to have taken part in any campaigns, we don't know what she did when at Nargothrond, and she either was on Balar or in Eriador during the war of wrath... But when Celeborn fought in Eriador she was already in Lorien... she then wanders, goes to Mirkwood, rivendell, Belfalas... Did she ever fight or do magic? Can't say.
What Tolkien said in Laws and Customs is this: "There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need." This is completely in keeping with the variant in which Galadriel (and no doubt many of the Telerin women) fought in desperate defence of her mother's kin. This tradition, in keeping with LotR, also has Galadriel leaving Beleriand and not participating in the war there.
By the 2nd Age, Galadriel was already an all powerful being much like she is in the 3rd Age. Depicting her as anything other that that in the 2nd Age, is wrong.
She didn't have Nenya yet. Also, Gandalf had an Elven ring and served a similar role as Galadriel, not so much a warrior but a guide, but still used a sword when the need arose.
Thank you for this great video. I really like that you are expanding on topics regarding the upcoming TV series. I am so excited for this. Much appriciate that you provide context and understanding on Galadriel. I think Cate Blanchett 3.0 over 5 season would be quite boring. I think they look to give her more complexity. Hard to approach how to develop elven characters that are thousands of years old. Interesting that Findrod is confirmed in the series, and of course his fate will affect Galadriel and her motivation with the rise of Sauron looming. I think this dynamics will be very interesting in a TV series format. I will definitely check out more videos of this channel, and I am sure your positive attitude towards the new series and depth of knowledge of the lore will grow your channel going forward. Cheers:)
I think the problem is that Chris Tolkien looked at the story as if it were exact and indisputable history, whereas Tolkien had intended it as folk lore and like real world ancient history. Such things in the real world can be contradictory, because the figures involved are so influential, that they become included in many sort of aesop type of tales.
Late Third Age Galadriel- A mage, a loremaster and/or a runekeeper First Age and Second Age Galadriel- a combo of an elven champion and mage/loremaster or just solely a LOTRO elven champion
Oh how I wish the list of "Tolkien scholars" on this current production included you, or at least those who value Tolkien's work in the same way... reducing Galadriel to a "warrior princess" by making her Tolkien's version of wonder woman does a great injustice to her amazing character. If this was the only controversial aspect of the initial tidbits we have been given, it wouldn't be as alarming. But it is clear from what has been shown thus far that the motivations of this production team are less about being true to Tolkien and more about making social commentary. I love your channel, but I have no interest in Amazon's version of Tolkien. Thanks for your good work!
Galadriel does not need to wear Nenya in Second Age series to show her true power. Even without wearing Nenya, Galadriel still is of the most powerful elves in Middle Earth since she completed the long journey to Valinor saw the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor before Morgoth destoryed those said trees.
No, Galadriel did not journey to Valinor. She was born in Valinor (1362 YT) after her ancestors traveled there from Middle Earth. She is 2nd (3rd?) generation.
There is also a passage in The Road Goes Ever On (published 1968 by Tolkien): "She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."
Tl;dr ELIF - She fought with a sword in her first tastes of battle and danger, but then realized that magic was much more effective and when she was confident in that, rejected the sword.
Thank you for another great video! For me, personally, the growth of Galadriel from a fighter led by vengeance that she wants to manifest physically (because one wants to manifest painful feelings into action), to a "witch", wise lady that is calm enough inside to wield magic that she learned from an angelic being, is one of the potential attractions of the show. But I understand those who are uneasy with this depiction of millennia old Galadriel
And that's why Morgoth and Sauron never engaged in melee, never wore weapons or armor. People have this one image of Galadriel based on a couple of scenes in Lothlorien and now she can't be anything other than a D&D sorceress - no multi-classing allowed. I guess she didn't brave the Helcaraxe, but teleported to Middle-Earth. She's old and talented enough to be a sorceress, warrior, librarian, Middle -Earths cooking champion, supreme dance master and a hundred other professions, vocations and hobbies. There's plenty of room for the RoP adaptation to have Galadriel do and be all sorts of things as long as she doesn't destroy the one ring and still be ok with the broader story in the Silmarilion and other sources. Also magic use in this world is inconsistent or rather has some limitations and constraints. OTOH the Valar could shape land and see and get whole continents destroyed. Sometimes there's voluntary constrain as in Valinors Valar avoiding direct conflict with Morgoth in the first age to avoid destroying Arda. But there obviously are other constraints limiting the use of magic by elves and men or mist of the battles make no sense. And even though Morgoth was a godlike entity, able to modify life and mountains he occasionally comes out to fight with a big mace. Sauron, a Maia, clearly a powerful sorcerer, second only to the Valar and mightiest creature in 3rd age Middle-Earth, still wears armor and sometimes fights with a sword. Same goes for the Istari. Gandalf is riding on a horse and wields a sword a lot of the times, even though he's a Maia and officially cakked a wizard. His main weapons are library research and diplomacy. And elves are less magical/powerful than the Ainur. Thus more constrained. Yes, Galadriel learned tricks and clearly has magical powers. But none of that precludes that she's also a capable fighter. And the Galadriel that is settled down and withdrawn in Lothlorien late in post-apocalyptic 3rd age is not the exact same person that ran from Valinor and lived and likely/possibly fought during the 2nd age. Having a particular headcanon about her is fine. Galadriel as mostly a wandering sorceress in the 2nd age is not wrong. But neither is a different interpretation of her being blade-wielding war-mage in the middle of the 2nd age. There's not that much detail about that time in the lore, thus plenty of room to fill it this way or that. There's room for various interpretations. Especially as Tolkien himself varied over time.
@@oerthling No Evidence and Nothing to back up Galadriel as a warrior. She's so strong in magic it is unnecessary. Sauron wears armor and uses a sword for intimidating effect.
@@oerthling Tolkien description of her is a metaphor for her posture as Amazon like. It is Not explicit. None of this canon either. What they can't even get her strength in magic right? 😒😑
This is one version of The Silmarillion that states that Galadriel was the original ruler of Eregion before Celebrimbor. The Gwaith-i-Mírdain under the influence of Annatar (Sauron) had ousted Galadriel and made Celebrimbor as lord of Eregion.
Could Galadriel have destroyed Dol Guldur with magic alone? I know Lúthien could and Melian probably could, but the former was half-Maia and the latter was fully Maia. I'm not convinced Galadriel would have that power, leading me to wonder if she did fight there, especially if she couldn't use Nenya there.
“Warrior, mage, or elven lady” I ask you, is it too much to ask for all three? Note: I’m still cautious of the show let’s be honest, but warrior-explorer Galadriel isn’t the thing that Im most hung up abouf
@@fidelitycreate No, it's fine. I have my own problems with the series, although it more relates to them portraying Galadriel as childish, incompetent, and slightly genocidal.
I enjoyed learning new insights about galadriel. If amazon would of put these references up instead of "she is full of piss and vinegar". I still think the way "rings of power" is going to portray her will be miles away even from these depictions.
So, could Galadriel be able to defeat/kill Fëanor and the Fëanor's sons on her own in the version of the Silmarillion in which she bent to get revenege on the house of Fëanor for the kinslaying?
The sentence that specifically tells us she fought against Fëanor in the First Kinslaying? Or the sentence that tells us she was an "Amazon" in her youth?
Galadriel is one of the mightiest Elves in Middle Earth. As far as I'm concerned, she can be whatever the hell she wants to be, and I think there is sufficiently little written about her in this period that her as a warrior causes me no disquiet whatsoever. Galadriel as a warrior is less problematic to me than Arwen's characterisation in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. Anyone who has a problem with Amazon's show, but not Peter Jackson's bastardisation of the novel, has their priorities in the wrong place, and are probably so corrupted by culture war nonsense that they are beyond saving. But I'm willing to argue about it. Prove me wrong.
You begin with a direct ad hominem insult, aimed at whoever has a point of view different than yours, "and are probably so corrupted by culture war nonsense that they are beyond saving." Why on Earth would anybody want, or try, to engage you in discussion of the nature of Galadriel? I might agree you about Galadriel, and I might not. Truly! You will never know. Apology not accepted-just disappear
@@SophiesDriver Well, I didn't begin with an ad hominem insult, did I? I began by saying that Galadriel can be whatever she wants to be. When I'm arguing against a torrent of absurd, bad faith, ill-read "fans" who only seem to care about "lore" they aren't able to repeat or explain, I think I'm entitled to take that attitude. If you aren't one of those people, then why take offence? And as I said: prove me wrong. I'm happy to discuss it. But as yet, nobody has been able to present anything like a compelling argument. You seem to think you have one but that I'm beneath sharing it with, for some reason. Please share it with me. Nothing would please me more than to have a civilised conversation with a fellow Tolkien fan about it. If I seem pissy, it's because thus far, I haven't been able to do that.
@@kugelblitzen Yes I have an opinion about the nature of Galadriel. No, I won't share it with you. Even before you started, your ad hominem demonstrated that you're a bully. You might have had a civilized conversation with me, but you decided to be "pissy" as you describe it
@@SophiesDriver "You might have had a civilized conversation with me" - dude, _you_ are the one who chose to respond to Kugelblitz. He pushed your buttons, and from reading what you've written so far I have to think he hit a soft spot in you. I happen to agree with him about so many people whining about the upcoming Amazon show. Far too many people are wanting to become lore-warriors, as if they have to defend something that is not only wholly fictional but, as this video illustrates, is a body of work that was both fluid and sometimes self-contradictory.
@@SophiesDriver Your self righteousness is dizzying. I’ve explained that my attitude was reserved for specific people making specific arguments, and as I’m sure you know, in some places, anyone with an open mind towards this show is being branded as traitor to fandom and in some cases race and culture. But I’m the bully? Give me a break. People screeching about ad hominem attacks and ignoring any substantial points didn’t impress me very much in school, and it isn’t very interesting to me now either. I can substantiate my comments with examples, and I think it’s a worthwhile conversation to have.
Galadriel is still a powerful elf even without wearing Nenya. Galadriel saw the Light of the Two Trees and she learned a lot from Melian the Maia.
More than that, I think she got a special charge of the Trees' power/Light in her hair.
I think the only time Galadriel was a warrior happened during the kinslaying at Alqualonde where she sided with her Teleri kin (and family) and fought against the Noldor, and this was based on Tolkien's last version of Galadriel in 1972/73.
But really Galadriel's true power came from being born in Valinor during the Two Trees and then being mentored by Melian the Maia in Doriath for easily a few centuries. Galadriel has what we think of it as magic and this is her true weapon, but she uses it sparingly and only to defend others or defend Lothlorien. Galadriel does not seek out combat nor seek to start wars, but if no option is left then she will mercilessly destroy the minions of Sauron.
"I think the only time Galadriel was a warrior happened during the kinslaying at Alqualonde where she sided with her Teleri kin (and family) and fought against the Noldor, and this was based on Tolkien's last version of Galadriel in 1972/73."
Slight correction to this bit. The inverse was actually true. That's the only explicit version Tolkien wrote of her where she *didn't* take part in the Noldor rebellion. In that version, she sailed across the sea with Celeborn prior to the rebellion, and arrived in Middle Earth a bit before Feanor.
Rather, what we generally think of Galadriel's "canon" backstory, wherein she's a leader in the Noldor rebellion, began to get fleshed out in the 60s. It didn't quite seem to exist in any solid form at the time LotR was published.
Very interesting.
As to the initial question as to whether she was Warrior, Mage or Elven Lady, I would say all three. With her being more the warrior during her early day, before the First Age of the Sun, i.e. the Defence of Alqualonde. Then learning sorcerous ways from Melian during her stay in Doriath during the First Age, such that at least by the end of the Third Age, if not before, she no longer needs physical weapons or armour. As for the Elven Lady part, to me she has always been that, as she was born into what was effectively the elven royal family.
There is no such thing as the "First Age of the Sun". The First Age began when the Elves awoke.
Per LotR and The Hobbit the Sun was extant at the time (there is no Sun and Moon from the Two Trees in TH or LotR).
I'm not sure how Galadriel being involved in one physical combat (the only one to take place in Aman that she could have been involved in), and perfectly in keeping with Tolkien's statement that elven-women in dire straits or desperate defence fought valiantly, but it was the elven-men who bore arms at need, would make her a warrior
I have no problem with the idea of Galadriel as being a "warrior princess" of sorts during her early years, including fighting to defend the Teleri during the 1st Kinslaying and continuing into the first years of the 1st Age. But by the time she left Doriath after studying under Melian for a few centuries, it seems to me the more martial aspects of her character would have been overtaken by her abilities in elven magic. So, what Amazon has described and shown to us seems somewhat out of place. But I have far, far greater concerns about the show than this.
Great video though!
First Age begins when the Elves awake at Cuivienen.
@@Tar-Elenion No, the First Age began with the rising of the Moon and the Sun, and the Awakening of Men in Hildórien. The Awakening of the Elves at Cuiviénen happened during the Years of the Trees.
@@istari0 No, it did not. This is evident from LotR:
"The High-elven was an ancient tongue of Eldamar beyond the Sea, the first to be recorded in writing. It was no longer a birth-tongue but had become, as it were, an 'Elven-latin', still used for ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song, by the High Elves, who had returned in exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age."
LotR App. F
Notice how the Noldor return to Middle-earth, in exile, at the END of the First Age (i.e. the final ca. 600 years).
Tolkien also directly states when the First Age began:
"Those were the Days of Bliss. In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuiviénen and the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar began."
Morgoth's Ring, Annals of Aman
CT notes::
"In the manuscript as it was originally written the Elder Days began with the Awakening of the Elves: 'Here begin the Elder Days, or the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar'; but 'the Elder Days' was struck out and does not appear in the typescript."
War of the Jewels, Tale of Years
Any number of the manuscripts published in Nature of Middle-earth e.g.:
"First Age 1. Quendi awake in the Spring (144 in number)."
"The First Age begins with the Awaking and ends with the Downfall of Angband."
Also, in The Hobbit and LotR, the Sun and Moon are not created from the Two Trees. They exist when the Elves awake, go on the Great March, arrive in Aman and dwell there before the revolt of the Noldor.
Thank you for putting this forward. I am inclined to agree this is consistent with her character. Also, as for destroying Dol Guldur, I recognize Celeborn was the main commander, but I wonder if it is possible Galadriel came alongside him. Seeing that her "Amazon" status did not emerge until later, it makes sense that Tolkien would not have said so explicitly. Also, about there not being much information about her fighting, we don't get a lot from Elrond either in the Third Age, but I've never heard anyone object to his role as a fighter in The Hobbit films, even though he was not only a very powerful Elf as Galadriel was but also a healer.
It is an interesting question, which I think is worth discussing and theorizing about. The problem, I think, is that too many people start inserting their politics into the discussion from accusations of it being "woke" or "feminist" or whatever, which I think serves as a barrier to discussion as opposed to examining the text itself.
And now I should probably elaborate on how I think that accusation of Amazon being "woke" is very unfair. To be "woke", according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary (I imagine other dictionaries say similar things) is to be "aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)". This is commonly also a derogatory term for "liberal", but I oppose the usage of derogatory terms to refer to people (and just to make my point, I personally lean toward political conservatism; however, I believe in keeping my politics and my Tolkien separate). So, to be woke, Amazon would have to be inserting their political and cultural "awareness" into Tolkien in a way it is not intended to be. One similar example of this that comes to mind is actually in The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian, a film that came out in 2008. Now, this film could be called "woke", because it ignored a statement in the series that seemed to be important to the author. Now, in that film, one of the main characters, Susan Pevensie, takes part in close-quarters physical combat several times. This is important since in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (the book, not the film), Father Christmas directly says, "Battles are ugly when women fight". We may agree or disagree with this statement, but the fact remains that by making a woman fight and portraying it in a positive or even morally neutral light, Disney and Walden Media are going against the intentions of C. S. Lewis and therefore making it "woke" in that way.
However, unlike his friend, Lewis, Tolkien did not appear to share the same aversion to women ever participating in war. We can see this in characters (albeit exceptions to the usual rule of them being men) such as Éowyn, Haleth, and Emeldir. Further, let's remember Tolkien, unlike C. S. Lewis, was a Catholic and therefore would have admired and perhaps even prayed to St. Joan of Arc, who was a French military leader when it was unthinkable for a woman to do so. Further, Tolkien would have believed God Himself told her to do it. Now, you are free to call Joan a "woke icon" if you want (provided you are not Catholic), but the fact remains that Catholics see the saints as some of the holiest people who ever lived. With that in mind, I think it is consistent with Tolkien's mind to make someone who symbolically represents the Virgin Mary, the holiest human being save Christ Himself in Catholicism, it does not seem to me incredible to make Galadriel something of an "Amazon" or more Amazonian toward the end of his life. I'm not saying Amazon understood this in their show, since she's a genocidal maniac, but her using a sword itself seems consistent to me and definitely not "woke".
One other point: I dislike with some passion the term "magic user" when referencing a Tolkien hero or heroine, and I imagine Tolkien would as well. Galadriel makes the point that Elven power and the deceits of Sauron are both called "magic", in spite of how different they are. If I had to call Galadriel anything, I would call her a wise counsellor and stateswoman. I might say the same of Elrond and possibly even Celeborn (who is at least said to be wise). Of course, both Elrond and Celeborn were warriors in some capacity and Elrond clearly used "magic" or Elven power which seems to me at least nearly as powerful as Galadriel's. So making Galadriel a shield-maiden does not seem too absurd either, considering what Tolkien wrote.
Excellent, thanks. Putting the relevant context-the fluid nature of the Legendarium over time-front and centre, plus the acknowledgement that anything we extrapolate about eg 2nd Age Galadriel is just that: an extrapolation from a choice of backstories.
In depth details of a great character! I love the attention to detail you put in to your videos! Keep up the the good work 👍
Galadriel no doubt is elegant with a blade like all Noldor during war, but her goal was knowledge, and ruling a realm. She is the most powerful elf during the 3rd age and wiser than Feanor. Able to hold her own and even gain an upper hand in mind games with Sauron. She isn't a mage or warrior, SHE is Lady Galadriel.
Once again, your knowledge of canon and semi-canon is staggering. And I agree with your assessment. I hope Galadriel has a chance to grow in to the Kate Blanchett version we all know and love.
She's already thousands of years old in the second age. I highly doubt there's any more room for "growing" after such a long life time.
@@Oozaru85 ; Well She changed after passing the temptation test of not taking the ring!
Galadriel did not wear or used Nenya during the Second Age since the keepers of the three Elven rings were not allow to wear or use the three Elven rings during the Second Age while Sauron still had the One Ring.
Not exactly true. The three eleven rings were created by the elves before Sauron created the one ring. The elves stopped using the rings when they fell under the influence of the one. It could be that they could wear them but not use them.
How many THOUSANDS of years old is galadriel? It would take 5 silmarillion textbooks to cover her history alone, unless she became this all wise and powerful queen by sitting on her ass?
Per the Annals of Aman she would be a bit under 2000 sun years at the start of the Second Age.
By other later writings (where Tolkien is try to work aging rates) she likely is well under 1000.
really awesome vid Dan loved it looking forward to your next one
Interesting! I was always sure she was clearly a leader and a founder of realms and a traveler. However i always thought that she did actually fight the two times she attacked Dol Guldur. Did she do anything else than being Melians pupil while in Doriath? Celeborn was a noble of that realm, he certainly fought and may have led defenders if attacked, even if we never actually hear of it.
However... she became a mother in the early second age, and we are told elf women who had borne a child usually did not fight any longer. Does this they never fought? Maybe in extreme situations they still would. However... she is not mentioned to have taken part in any campaigns, we don't know what she did when at Nargothrond, and she either was on Balar or in Eriador during the war of wrath...
But when Celeborn fought in Eriador she was already in Lorien... she then wanders, goes to Mirkwood, rivendell, Belfalas...
Did she ever fight or do magic? Can't say.
What Tolkien said in Laws and Customs is this:
"There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can
think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are
indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri
and nissi, and other differences that have been established by
custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of
the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches
on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised
by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at
need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even
when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of
healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due
rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any
special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire
straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there
was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and
elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among
mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers
and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained
from hunting, and went not to war until the last need."
This is completely in keeping with the variant in which Galadriel (and no doubt many of the Telerin women) fought in desperate defence of her mother's kin.
This tradition, in keeping with LotR, also has Galadriel leaving Beleriand and not participating in the war there.
By the 2nd Age, Galadriel was already an all powerful being much like she is in the 3rd Age. Depicting her as anything other that that in the 2nd Age, is wrong.
She didn't have Nenya yet. Also, Gandalf had an Elven ring and served a similar role as Galadriel, not so much a warrior but a guide, but still used a sword when the need arose.
Great video!
Thank you for this great video. I really like that you are expanding on topics regarding the upcoming TV series. I am so excited for this. Much appriciate that you provide context and understanding on Galadriel. I think Cate Blanchett 3.0 over 5 season would be quite boring. I think they look to give her more complexity. Hard to approach how to develop elven characters that are thousands of years old. Interesting that Findrod is confirmed in the series, and of course his fate will affect Galadriel and her motivation with the rise of Sauron looming. I think this dynamics will be very interesting in a TV series format. I will definitely check out more videos of this channel, and I am sure your positive attitude towards the new series and depth of knowledge of the lore will grow your channel going forward. Cheers:)
I think the problem is that Chris Tolkien looked at the story as if it were exact and indisputable history, whereas Tolkien had intended it as folk lore and like real world ancient history. Such things in the real world can be contradictory, because the figures involved are so influential, that they become included in many sort of aesop type of tales.
Late Third Age Galadriel- A mage, a loremaster and/or a runekeeper
First Age and Second Age Galadriel- a combo of an elven champion and mage/loremaster or just solely a LOTRO elven champion
So, basically a 9/30 fighter-mage? Able to hold her own in combat in a pinch, but much more effective with her spells? Sounds legit.
Great video mellon!
Is there an "all of the above" option?
Oh how I wish the list of "Tolkien scholars" on this current production included you, or at least those who value Tolkien's work in the same way... reducing Galadriel to a "warrior princess" by making her Tolkien's version of wonder woman does a great injustice to her amazing character. If this was the only controversial aspect of the initial tidbits we have been given, it wouldn't be as alarming. But it is clear from what has been shown thus far that the motivations of this production team are less about being true to Tolkien and more about making social commentary. I love your channel, but I have no interest in Amazon's version of Tolkien. Thanks for your good work!
I'm waiting for Galadriel to have Melkor in a crushing wrist hold.
@@Vandervecken haha it’s just a matter of time
Galadriel does not need to wear Nenya in Second Age series to show her true power. Even without wearing Nenya, Galadriel still is of the most powerful elves in Middle Earth since she completed the long journey to Valinor saw the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor before Morgoth destoryed those said trees.
No, Galadriel did not journey to Valinor. She was born in Valinor (1362 YT) after her ancestors traveled there from Middle Earth. She is 2nd (3rd?) generation.
There is also a passage in The Road Goes Ever On (published 1968 by Tolkien):
"She was the last survivor of the princes and queens who had led the revolting Noldor to exile in Middle-earth. After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."
Tl;dr ELIF - She fought with a sword in her first tastes of battle and danger, but then realized that magic was much more effective and when she was confident in that, rejected the sword.
It's woke D&D not Tolkien. She is a mage
@Steve McQueen Yes Pretty Much.
Thank you for another great video! For me, personally, the growth of Galadriel from a fighter led by vengeance that she wants to manifest physically (because one wants to manifest painful feelings into action), to a "witch", wise lady that is calm enough inside to wield magic that she learned from an angelic being, is one of the potential attractions of the show. But I understand those who are uneasy with this depiction of millennia old Galadriel
Thank you
Keep her a Magic User she's So Powerful in magic. She really doesn't Need a sword.
And that's why Morgoth and Sauron never engaged in melee, never wore weapons or armor.
People have this one image of Galadriel based on a couple of scenes in Lothlorien and now she can't be anything other than a D&D sorceress - no multi-classing allowed.
I guess she didn't brave the Helcaraxe, but teleported to Middle-Earth.
She's old and talented enough to be a sorceress, warrior, librarian, Middle -Earths cooking champion, supreme dance master and a hundred other professions, vocations and hobbies.
There's plenty of room for the RoP adaptation to have Galadriel do and be all sorts of things as long as she doesn't destroy the one ring and still be ok with the broader story in the Silmarilion and other sources.
Also magic use in this world is inconsistent or rather has some limitations and constraints.
OTOH the Valar could shape land and see and get whole continents destroyed.
Sometimes there's voluntary constrain as in Valinors Valar avoiding direct conflict with Morgoth in the first age to avoid destroying Arda.
But there obviously are other constraints limiting the use of magic by elves and men or mist of the battles make no sense.
And even though Morgoth was a godlike entity, able to modify life and mountains he occasionally comes out to fight with a big mace.
Sauron, a Maia, clearly a powerful sorcerer, second only to the Valar and mightiest creature in 3rd age Middle-Earth, still wears armor and sometimes fights with a sword.
Same goes for the Istari. Gandalf is riding on a horse and wields a sword a lot of the times, even though he's a Maia and officially cakked a wizard. His main weapons are library research and diplomacy.
And elves are less magical/powerful than the Ainur. Thus more constrained.
Yes, Galadriel learned tricks and clearly has magical powers. But none of that precludes that she's also a capable fighter.
And the Galadriel that is settled down and withdrawn in Lothlorien late in post-apocalyptic 3rd age is not the exact same person that ran from Valinor and lived and likely/possibly fought during the 2nd age.
Having a particular headcanon about her is fine. Galadriel as mostly a wandering sorceress in the 2nd age is not wrong.
But neither is a different interpretation of her being blade-wielding war-mage in the middle of the 2nd age.
There's not that much detail about that time in the lore, thus plenty of room to fill it this way or that.
There's room for various interpretations. Especially as Tolkien himself varied over time.
@@oerthling No Evidence and Nothing to back up Galadriel as a warrior. She's so strong in magic it is unnecessary. Sauron wears armor and uses a sword for intimidating effect.
@@oerthling Tolkien description of her is a metaphor for her posture as Amazon like. It is Not explicit. None of this canon either. What they can't even get her strength in magic right? 😒😑
@@oerthling How come Gandalf never wore armor? Saruman? Sorry this show is Trash 🗑️😂😌! None of the writing is faithful at all! Sorry 😒!
@@oerthling Not to mention Galadriel is an Ishtari their powerful magic users. Also why is she so Dislikable 🤓!?? What up with that 😒?
This is one version of The Silmarillion that states that Galadriel was the original ruler of Eregion before Celebrimbor. The Gwaith-i-Mírdain under the influence of Annatar (Sauron) had ousted Galadriel and made Celebrimbor as lord of Eregion.
Thanks dan
Could Galadriel have destroyed Dol Guldur with magic alone? I know Lúthien could and Melian probably could, but the former was half-Maia and the latter was fully Maia. I'm not convinced Galadriel would have that power, leading me to wonder if she did fight there, especially if she couldn't use Nenya there.
“Warrior, mage, or elven lady” I ask you, is it too much to ask for all three?
Note: I’m still cautious of the show let’s be honest, but warrior-explorer Galadriel isn’t the thing that Im most hung up abouf
so she was a warrior once.
You can read the Unfinished Tales if you want proof.
@@mariyontil sorry. I didn't mean to come across as adversarial. I think there were some emotions at the time over rings of power
@@fidelitycreate No, it's fine. I have my own problems with the series, although it more relates to them portraying Galadriel as childish, incompetent, and slightly genocidal.
I enjoyed learning new insights about galadriel. If amazon would of put these references up instead of "she is full of piss and vinegar".
I still think the way "rings of power" is going to portray her will be miles away even from these depictions.
I'm guessing you all are excited for the Amazon version?
She is the lady of Eregion in the Second Age, wife of Celeborn. No Numenor, not young, not impulsive, not a warrior.
A mystical, magical, elven lady.
Yes Thank You!! There is No Evidence Galadriel was ever a warrior.
So, could Galadriel be able to defeat/kill Fëanor and the Fëanor's sons on her own in the version of the Silmarillion in which she bent to get revenege on the house of Fëanor for the kinslaying?
I love her... heck I am her...in copper statue form
So you take one sentence and conjure up a warrior back story ? Nonsense.
The sentence that specifically tells us she fought against Fëanor in the First Kinslaying? Or the sentence that tells us she was an "Amazon" in her youth?
elven lady
Galadriel is one of the mightiest Elves in Middle Earth. As far as I'm concerned, she can be whatever the hell she wants to be, and I think there is sufficiently little written about her in this period that her as a warrior causes me no disquiet whatsoever.
Galadriel as a warrior is less problematic to me than Arwen's characterisation in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. Anyone who has a problem with Amazon's show, but not Peter Jackson's bastardisation of the novel, has their priorities in the wrong place, and are probably so corrupted by culture war nonsense that they are beyond saving. But I'm willing to argue about it. Prove me wrong.
You begin with a direct ad hominem insult, aimed at whoever has a point of view different than yours, "and are probably so corrupted by culture war nonsense that they are beyond saving."
Why on Earth would anybody want, or try, to engage you in discussion of the nature of Galadriel?
I might agree you about Galadriel, and I might not.
Truly! You will never know.
Apology not accepted-just disappear
@@SophiesDriver Well, I didn't begin with an ad hominem insult, did I? I began by saying that Galadriel can be whatever she wants to be.
When I'm arguing against a torrent of absurd, bad faith, ill-read "fans" who only seem to care about "lore" they aren't able to repeat or explain, I think I'm entitled to take that attitude. If you aren't one of those people, then why take offence? And as I said: prove me wrong. I'm happy to discuss it. But as yet, nobody has been able to present anything like a compelling argument.
You seem to think you have one but that I'm beneath sharing it with, for some reason. Please share it with me. Nothing would please me more than to have a civilised conversation with a fellow Tolkien fan about it. If I seem pissy, it's because thus far, I haven't been able to do that.
@@kugelblitzen Yes I have an opinion about the nature of Galadriel.
No, I won't share it with you.
Even before you started, your ad hominem demonstrated that you're a bully.
You might have had a civilized conversation with me, but you decided to be "pissy" as you describe it
@@SophiesDriver "You might have had a civilized conversation with me" - dude, _you_ are the one who chose to respond to Kugelblitz. He pushed your buttons, and from reading what you've written so far I have to think he hit a soft spot in you. I happen to agree with him about so many people whining about the upcoming Amazon show. Far too many people are wanting to become lore-warriors, as if they have to defend something that is not only wholly fictional but, as this video illustrates, is a body of work that was both fluid and sometimes self-contradictory.
@@SophiesDriver Your self righteousness is dizzying. I’ve explained that my attitude was reserved for specific people making specific arguments, and as I’m sure you know, in some places, anyone with an open mind towards this show is being branded as traitor to fandom and in some cases race and culture.
But I’m the bully? Give me a break. People screeching about ad hominem attacks and ignoring any substantial points didn’t impress me very much in school, and it isn’t very interesting to me now either. I can substantiate my comments with examples, and I think it’s a worthwhile conversation to have.