Maybe they bought up a large batch of inkjet ink and went "hey - cyan, yellow, magenta: we're covered. What, we have a fourth channel? Wait, really...? Fine, take the black, mix some of it into the cyan and call it a day!"
I always thought these colors were some industry standard since other manufacturers use the same colors. I also would love to have the 4th channel in green instead of dark blue.
@@MetalheadAndNerd Agreed, all scopes at my workplace has the "standard" yellow blue pink green combination. Tektronix, keysight and rhode and shwarz all use them but in different order.
Hack is already available and works very well. Buying the cheapest model and hacking it to enable all features makes it a hell of a lot of scope for the money but buying it optioned up is crazy, the quality isn't there for the money they are asking.
@@JAKOB1977 It is a very simple process now, you just copy a file to a USB drive and follow a few simple steps to connect to the scope and apply the patch. Took me literally 10minutes and I was actually shocked how simple it was. Check the thread on the EEVBlog forum about it for the latest details, things may have changes since I hacked mine but I doubt it. I didn't get the absolute base version, I got the 4 channel version as you get extra probes for only $100 more which is actually not bad for a couple of 350MHz probes. Still if you already have probes you can still get all 4 inputs enabled just with the hack.
@@warpedgeoid There are people patching each firmware version as they become available, I think version 1.02.00.02 is the latest patched firmware available. Check on EEV Blog for the latest news on that, the MSO5000 hack threads are updated frequently.
Regarding the HIGH RESOLUTION mode: High Resolution mode is accessed via the Acquisition settings. Here’s what the manual says; “High Resolution: This mode uses an over-sample technique to average the neighboring points of the sample waveform. This reduces the random noise on the input signal, generates a much smoother waveform on the screen and improves the vertical resolution. This is generally used when the sample rate of the digital converter is greater than the storage rate of the acquisition memory. Note: ⚫ The "Average" and "High Res" modes use different averaging methods. The former uses "Multi-sample Average" and the latter uses "Single-sample Average". ⚫ In"HighRes"mode,the signal bandwidth does not exceed 1/32 of the sampling rate. ⚫ In "High Res" mode, the highest waveform refresh rate mode is not supported.”
You are probably too young to remember this but some Tektronix cro's had this feature in the late 1980's the 7000 series I think, it was only operational with Tektronix probes and was switched with a link to the x1/x10 switch on the probe via a special BNC input with an extra connection ring around the outside.
@@EEVblog The iPhone isn't really widely regarded as low cost, though, so not the best example. Still, looks like a decent amount of scope for the buck.
Man this is dirt cheap, what are you basing your cost evaluation on? This is a hell of a deal for an MSO even at 70mhz (how long till that’s cracked to unlock full bandwidth and channels you think?)
We are absolutely SPOILED these days. I remember my company paying well over $10,000 for TEK scopes in the mid 90's, and if you wanted logic analyzers, protocol decoding and AWG (all of which were crude by todays standards and took FOREVER to setup), you easily spent $30k - infinity$. Today, hobby labs setup in the garage can have more functionality for a few thousand USD than professional labs just 25 years ago.
You’re spot-on about bring less $ than an iPhone or even a Samsung! It’s an interesting step-up for hobbyists above the 1054 etc. to get MSO features if hackable. Please compare with Siglent to show competition and with (say) Tek to see why they cost 5x more?
I know this intro to the MSO-5000 is 2 years old. However, consider that in the $999 configuration, you do get FOUR probes. If you value the probes at $35 ea., you’re only paying $30 for the 4-channels vs 2-channels capability. Also, it’s now well known this scope is hackable making it a huge functionality bargain. Personally I purchased the 5074 model with a 10% discount coupon then applied the hack so I have a fully configured MSO-5354 for $899.10! Hard to beat even with its list of faults.
@@David_94 DISCOUNTS - I called them and asked for the "BEST DEALS on the MSO5000 series" available. The sales rep pointed me at the Clearance Center and Current Promotions Links at the bottom of their home-page and offered me the 10% discount coupon code. Good luck....
Those complaining about boot time, all modern ASIC based scopes are slow since huge amounts of code (firmware) must be downloaded and initialized to various ASICs on board. Minute and 15 seconds isn't really that bad, Dave Jones just being sarcastic I suspect ...
It really irks me that you can't see "through" the intensity graded traces. They should at least show the divs on top of the trace, if they can't manage to do proper alpha grading.
The output on the RS232 is a typical boot log of an embedded Linux system. UBOOT is the boot loader and the command line after the boot gives access to all binaries, while the shell (ash) has already builtin commands. A command like "ls -al" gives a detailed list of the current dir. A "cd " is changing the path. The root of the path is "/" . Usually most binaries are in /usr/bin . In some cases the device specific binaries are in /usr/local/bin or /opt/bin. They have to be started with full path or a relative path like "./" You "help" didn't worked because there is no such command on any linux system. Usually it's "man " but an embedded system will have no man pages at all.
except the help command _did_ work (see 22:50) - it gave a list of built-in commands. Yes, probably that's just a shell of some sort (though I'm not sure which shell that is -- bash has a built-in help, but it looks significantly different... probably some more stripped-down shell, but -I'm not familiar enough with those to guess which one- EDIT: 23:18 reveals it's "ash"), and thus much more than just the builtins are probably an option, and it would be fun to play around. I guess Dave isn't/wasn't super familiar with *nix shells, and so didn't realize what he had?
I am familiar with this. The boss gets what the boss wants, even if you have reams of docs and hundreds of hours if user tests. The boss will not be educated. oh well. sign that check dam you!
@14:34 the resistors next to the Xilinx Spartan FPGA, are for 0, 1 boolean binary digit selection pins. The FPGA code in the chip would have some specific settings that can be configured by setting those resistors as variables. It would be impossible to know what those settings actually control though.
I quite like the black, no good reason i just enjoy it but if you can ever get it to lock up again im curious what happens to the freq gen output, if it locks to a voltage and does not go in to an error state where it grounds the output you can cause some problems
The console command help menu you got will not be "all" the commands. That is a BusyBox Linux shell and the "help" command will only list the internal BusyBox commands and not every executable on the system.
Why are the RTC batteries soldered to the PCB instead of using a battery holder? Do they assume that the scope will be so obsolete by the time the battery expires (10 year or so lifetime?) that no one will want to continue using the scope and will scrap it instead of going through the hassle of replacing the battery? Or is it more likely that other components will fail beyond economical repair before the battery dies?
The bottom sticker holder doesn't also seem to be consistent in size and the sticker doesn't look very level at 7.21. Maybe it is the shine from the black edges that brings it out.
So basically they designed a $999 scope in order to not sell even the lowest tier models at a loss and everything on top of that is just (supposedly justified) software feature unlocks. That's all great and everything, if you get a one of the $999-$2000 models, but such low build quality in the $5000 model is absurd. This business model actually reminds me of the state of the video game industry in 2018 and having to buy a bunch of DLCs to unlock the interesting content for your games.
The commands that popped up under "help" are standard Unix shell commands, very close to what you'd get typing "help" on e.g. a Linux laptop. Not sure if anyone's mentioned that yet.
One thing to consider: the scope is rated for CAT I. That means it is not rated to measure anything that is directly connected to mains (CAT II) or mains directly (CAT III). Depending on what type of hobbyist we are talking about, that might be relevant information.
Black looks so much like lecroy scopes, but I do like it. Excited for this scope! Looks pretty good, especially if it's hackable, just they have to fix the lock up bug. Dislike the glossy screen though. But then again, haven't seen a touchy feely scope that has a non-gloss screen.
Isn't there a simple way to scuff up the plastic? Like with a chemical that tarnishes the glossy plastic finish, or something like that? To reduce all that glare on the very dim lcd. Speaking of which, maybe there are also other ways to modify this scope. For example increase the output of the backlight, etc. would be helpful.
@@dreamcat4 i wouldn't risk scratching the front of the lcd itself, but maybe you can get one of those glare-reducing filters for laptops or tablets to fit. modifying backlight intensity should be possible if you can get to the leds, but i'm not sure about what that would do to the contrast ratio, and if it would be worth the trouble.
Rounding up my own thoughts about the unit: It seems to have "decent" performance, the front end is simple enough, but could just be a high bandwidth analog mux with an inbuilt selectable amplifier, would kinda give the same expected circuit for the front end. All the software options seems to be a ripoff, paying 300$ for the extra two channels that costs 90$ up front is nothing but a scam. HDMI output is a welcomed addition in my opinion. The color scheme seems like it has gotten a dose of the "gamer" marketing idea from the general PC world. (Should we expect RGB lighting and Noctua fans in the future? (Though, Noctua fans are though pricey and generally superb quality (not to mention practically silent) so that I wouldn't mind seeing.)) "intensity graded waveforms" suffers the same exact problem that all scope manufacturers have. Non of them seem to know the difference between fading to background color, and fading to 0% opacity. (Yes, the trace color should be static, it is the transparency that should change. (This can easily be checked by generating the 1KHz 100% AM modulated 1MHz signal on channel 1, and have a 90 degree offset 1KHz waveform on channel two. The second channel should then be visible in the faded regions of channel 1. (something it isn't on any scope I have ever seen. Except on analog scopes using the traditional electron beam.))) 10x probe sensing seems like the cheapest and easiest feature to add to a scope, after all, it is mostly just checking for continuity on the connection to see if it connects to ground, if it does, then it is a 10x probe most likely. (Only cost is to have a small PCB for the front of the unit, and literally 4 wires jumping over to the main board, here one can just use a typical 4 pin Fan connector used on most PC motherboards, mostly since it is a cheap and a well established connector.) So why doesn't all scopes have it? (Penny pinching is the answer, until someone wants market differentiation for their cheap scope.) The inconsistent UI of this scope seems like it could get confusing rather fast. But the scope seems to be a bit lacking in its performance, I generally don't like working with an instrument that takes time to just react on my inputs to it. That it needs time to sample and such is totally fine, but clicking around in menus and such should never have an appreciable amount of lag. (Though, even Tektronix haven't really understood that yet....) And now yes, this is too long and no one will really read it.
Then your wrong if you think that..give valid details about scopes and personal views on today's scope market is always welcome info. and way better than one-line sentences that in practise doesn't say anything other than a thumbs up button would. Thx for your comment... I enjoyed reading it.+1
wanting to be able to identify board revision from fpga logic to mux in or out some workarounds or other board revision specific is a perfectly plausible thing to do, i usually make only the lower half discrete resistors and upper half hard connections in the layout to save space but still be able to differentiate between component population variations
They should spend the extra $10 and put good quality caps in it! If you’re getting a scope potentially worth $5000 you want it to last more than 3 years.
isn't the point of this scope is that you would only buy the options needed, which you could do over a period of time if you're a hobbyist, so buying slightly above the base model gives you options, when money permits, to upgrade over time. Buying a 5k scope only to use a few options is overkill and over budget. Buying 1 up over base model then adding a couple of addition options when/if needed
I also own this oscilloscope. What I noticed is that the decoder only works properly when "enough" data is flowing. For example, if I store a "Hello World" on a serial EEPROM via I2C, nothing is decoded. Only after 2-3 seconds of communication the Rigol starts to decode. When I try this with my Saleae 16Pro, the communication is completely decoded. Even the $5 Dollar things from eBay with the Sigrok software can do this without any problems. Otherwise I am quite satisfied with the device. At least it covers my needs so far. But the Logic Analyser is a horrible one. And that already starts with the operation.
Latest firmware fixes most of the issues and it seems pretty solid now. That said it's only really worth getting if you buy 2ch 70Mhz and plan hacking it, when it's hacked its a lot of scope for the money.
The table at 37:43 is wrong. a) MSO is included and require no options. You just need to buy a probe (400$ very expensive), or create your own. b) It looks like you used $269+$897=1166$ as a price for serial decode options and arb gen, which looks to be unfair/incorrect, because you can get a full serial triger and decode (all protocols!) + signal gen + power analysis option, all together for 699$. (MSO5000-BND upgrade). So the bottom left corner both Low and High BW sections are off by 467$. This puts even fully optioned out low BW models VERY competitive with other scopes. And actually just below the price of Siglent for 70MHz and 100MHz BW versions.
+700$ for all serial decodes, waveform generator and power analyzer option bundle. Not terribly bad. Yes, it sounds a lot on its own, but if you add this up to the base price, it is still cheap. You can also get options individually (i.e. just some serial protocols, etc), but it doesn't make any sense price wise from what I can see (every protocol, waveform and power analyzer is 270-300$ per option!). So once you want to go with UART, I2C and signal gen, you should go with a bundle and get all other options cheaper. Plus probably 100$ for digital probes. Considering you need to spend about 3800$ on R&S with such options, and you can get 1700$ from Rigol (for 70MHz), or 2200$ (for 100MHz), it is not bad after all. Sure, it doesn't have 10 bit ADC, or super high res screen, but still, pretty powerful for the price. But at the high end of the bandwidth, R&S is better value proposition than Rigol.
Whats that fine button do in the acquisition menu? it probably has high res but under another functionality name or so. I wonder now that more and more have hdmi output, when will they finally not only clone the output, but use it as an expanded display? waveform on the scope, serial on the monitor etc.
@@friedmule5403 Let me get back to you , I'm still trying to find the datasheet, I've got schematics but they seem to be incomplete and partially smudged by coffee stains
Although I have several Rigol instruments I would have to pass on this unit. I think the Siglent would be a better choice. Thanks for sharing this Dave.
kinda disappointing some of this compared to the $600 aussie bucks Siglent SDS1104X-E. The Siglent doesn't have the dedicated digital channels (does serial decode on the standard channels) or signal generator (add-on extra), but seems like the Siglent quality is better in general. But maybe that's just me justifying my purchase ;)
Dave, can you get hold of one of the 8 channel (up to 64 digital channels!) Tektronix scopes? I'd be curious to know if there's anything interesting about the analog front end or how it handles 8 full analog channels in terms of memory and sampling... MSO58XX or the "5" series scopes.
My first thought when I saw the black case was that it is just a prototype unit. It is different from what I'm used to seeing for scopes and other equipment. Not sure if I like it. Might take some time to get used to it. I noticed the $90 extra for 4 channels. Why bother with 2 channel models? I still don't like the channel 2 and 4 colours. I would like see more contrasting colours. The use of keys to software upgrade these devices tends to feel a bit like a form of bait and switch. You can wind up paying almost double (or more) of the original price of the unit after you pay for all the optional extras. :P
Interesting that it uses sunon maglev fans. Sunon is the OEM for the quite expensive Corsair maglev fans for PC cases etc. Maybe they have just speeced the fan to run quite fast hence the whine.
Did you end up deciding? The Siglent isn't as ugly, but all the serial licences get expensive. I'm not sure if anyone made a hack for the Siglent scopes.
After a long debate I purchased a rigol 4000 series 350 scope over the siglent about a year-and-a-half ago ultimately I was impressed with the 4000 and I thought to myself wow for an extra $1,000 this year could really be a very nice scope well I guess this is the next generation and quite frankly I find it underwhelming based on your review they really missed the mark and by the way I hate the black color thanks for the review Dave
Those Sunon MagLev fans are a huge disappointment. I highly recommend their ball bearing fans, but MagLev MTBF no different than sleeve bearing in my experience. We replace all non-ball bearing OE fans with ball when gear is new, and never look back. Cheers
@@SolidStateWorkshop : We thought the same thing. We replace fans in equipment every day. We were seeing 5 - 10 YEARS from Sunon ball bearing fans; often they lasted the useful life of the gear -- AMAZING!!! Well, not so with the MagLev; they made a HUGE problem for us. When MagLev first appeared, Sunon promoted the heck out of them. We bought cases of various sizes. When they began failing like cheap, sleeve bearing fans, in 1 -2 years, we were shocked. And so were our clients. Those fans cost us a ton of money in field service calls, damaged gear, hours and hours and hours. I trusted Sunon. I still have boxes of MagLev fans collecting dust, on a high shelf, in the deepest, darkest parts room. We use them when we flip old gear that we'll never see again. My friend, repeat after me, "I will only buy BALL BEARING FANS for family, friends and clients.". Screw MagLev. Cheers.
@@hightttech can't find a reference now (might have been toms hardware?) but I saw an article examining fan failures, specifically maglev fans. From what they concluded, at least in PCs, was the fans were failing due to dust ingress, since the sealing wasn't much better than a sleeve-bearing fan (so essentially nonexistent). Even the cheaper ball-bearing fans with shielded bearings (not sealed) did significantly better at keeping dust out of the bearing elements. While the mag fans theoretically don't make contact, the clearances are small enough that dust ingress will foul the mechanism relatively quickly.
@@zrobotics : Thank you for info. I agree that dust is the main offender, heat inside hot power supplies next. Unfortunately, nothing we can do about dirty and/or hot except use ball bearing fans which are more tolerant to both. I've seen Sunon ball bearing fans spinning away after 10 years, whining due to worn bearings, dry lude and dirt caked all over -- AND STILL COOLING. Absolutely remarkable. (edit): BTW, in equipment we service, it's not uncommon for us to see power supplies and video cards last 5 - 10 years simply because we replaced the crappy OE fans when equipment was new. They last 6 - 24 months tops with OE fans. That's why we got screwed with MagLev -- we had to cover premature failures under service agreements. Bad memories.
I love the design of this one, but I suppose it should be different if it's for a more professional market. Keep the design for a cheap one and I'd buy it immediately. Am I the only who can appreciate a functional lab that also looks slick? It's part of the reason I went with Ersa soldering station.
So how many of the "upgrades" are software driven vs actual hardware changes? How difficult would it be to er, "hack" the software to upgrade a bottom of the line scope to the top of the line?
The amount a people here complaining that Dave's definition of _low cost is $1000_ is unreal. _"If I can't get a 4 channel 8 GS/s 500 MHz scope with a built in 16 channel analyzer with all the probes for $400 then the manufacture is stealing!"_ LOL... get real.
@@Sonex1542 Why do you still watch his videos, if that is your opinion. You have to respect people have other idees than your own without beeing full of shit...... I like Dave and respect that he can have his own opionion. Just like myself. Get real.
Your $1000 is almost 500% off from the actual cost which is much closer to 5k. Obviously they can afford to sell the unit for $1000 since everything else is software and not even very advanced software in comparison to other stuff that costs $20-30 for a license. Yes I understand not as many people buy this compared to other stuff but code for a AWG is not that much work and they want hundreds of $ for it. So 4000 for a few software upgrades of very basic software is where we have a problem.
Have a nice day I apologize for the message, I wanted to ask you about an oscilloscope, I just plan to buy a similar one I read in the manual about the function of recording the waveform from the input channels and the ability to transmit using the built-in generator. But I could not find information, is it possible to record 2 signals from different channels at the same time and transmit them simultaneously using different outputs of the generator Recorded on equipment and reproduced, I want to use it to test IGBT drivers from UPS on the desktop. There is no desire to work near the equipment, as the voltage is about 800 volts. 2 separate channels come to the IGBT control board, if there is no one signal or not at the right time, then the board cannot be checked. Sincerely
the DS1000E was left in the dust by the DS2000A Series at that time of him recommending , i went with the DS2000A series then a while later the DS1000E were all on gumtree for sale for the DS1054Z and it seems like everyone was buying them However... THE ONE THAT STILL STANDS ABOVE IS THE DS2000A SERIES in terms of specs, it also still has a larger screen but the DS1000E , Shit , does anyone still use that anymore ? i see no benefit to buying one
Good, it's not just me that's noticed the "medical instrumentation" style a lot of scopes have. Mind you, when Dave goes to hospital, they probably hook some probes up to his test points and attach a scope to him.
I agree... that bone white that has been used that yellows after a few years is getting kinda old. Only new hippy thing i don't like is them bright blue LED's that usually goes with a black case other than that i like black covers.
i want a stainless steel version so it matches with all my kitchen appliances...
Give me a version with fake wood furniture like old 70s consoles and TVs.
Anodized titanium would win it for me...
Burr walnut panelling and brass knobs please.
....or to quote some dude... "u can have any colour as long as it's black ! ".. 😂
I’m from the 50s. Don’t they have it in Avocado?
Let's think of four easily distinguishably colors for the input channels! Yellow Blue Pink Blue, yeah that should do it.
Maybe they bought up a large batch of inkjet ink and went "hey - cyan, yellow, magenta: we're covered. What, we have a fourth channel? Wait, really...? Fine, take the black, mix some of it into the cyan and call it a day!"
My guess is that this color scheme has something to with usability for people with red/green color blindness.
I always thought these colors were some industry standard since other manufacturers use the same colors.
I also would love to have the 4th channel in green instead of dark blue.
@@MetalheadAndNerd Agreed, all scopes at my workplace has the "standard" yellow blue pink green combination. Tektronix, keysight and rhode and shwarz all use them but in different order.
Color should be user selectable. There, I fixed it.
The verdict is: Wait until the riglol hack is available to upgrade the cheapest version to the most expensive version.
Hack is already available and works very well. Buying the cheapest model and hacking it to enable all features makes it a hell of a lot of scope for the money but buying it optioned up is crazy, the quality isn't there for the money they are asking.
@@paulround8501 is the MSO5000 hack as simple as a complete newbie (as in a first bench scope) can play along and implement it themself?
@@JAKOB1977 It is a very simple process now, you just copy a file to a USB drive and follow a few simple steps to connect to the scope and apply the patch. Took me literally 10minutes and I was actually shocked how simple it was. Check the thread on the EEVBlog forum about it for the latest details, things may have changes since I hacked mine but I doubt it. I didn't get the absolute base version, I got the 4 channel version as you get extra probes for only $100 more which is actually not bad for a couple of 350MHz probes. Still if you already have probes you can still get all 4 inputs enabled just with the hack.
@@paulround8501 Will this work regardless of firmware version?
@@warpedgeoid There are people patching each firmware version as they become available, I think version 1.02.00.02 is the latest patched firmware available. Check on EEV Blog for the latest news on that, the MSO5000 hack threads are updated frequently.
Regarding the HIGH RESOLUTION mode: High Resolution mode is accessed via the Acquisition settings. Here’s what the manual says;
“High Resolution: This mode uses an over-sample technique to average the neighboring points of the sample waveform. This reduces the random noise on the input signal, generates a much smoother waveform on the screen and improves the vertical resolution. This is generally used when the sample rate of the digital converter is greater than the storage rate of the acquisition memory.
Note:
⚫ The "Average" and "High Res" modes use different averaging methods. The former uses "Multi-sample Average" and the latter uses "Single-sample Average".
⚫ In"HighRes"mode,the signal bandwidth does not exceed 1/32 of the sampling rate.
⚫ In "High Res" mode, the highest waveform refresh rate mode is not supported.”
Finally I bought one. So it's time to watch your video again. Thanks Dave.
You are probably too young to remember this but some Tektronix cro's had this feature in the late 1980's the 7000 series I think, it was only operational with Tektronix probes and was switched with a link to the x1/x10 switch on the probe via a special BNC input with an extra connection ring around the outside.
Dave and his ideas about what is "low cost"
Yep, under $1k is the "low cost" category for scopes IMO. Not the "lowest cost", but still "low cost". Your iPhone cost more than this.
@@EEVblog The iPhone isn't really widely regarded as low cost, though, so not the best example. Still, looks like a decent amount of scope for the buck.
Man this is dirt cheap, what are you basing your cost evaluation on? This is a hell of a deal for an MSO even at 70mhz (how long till that’s cracked to unlock full bandwidth and channels you think?)
"low cost" is relative to the category of product, just like everything else.
We are absolutely SPOILED these days. I remember my company paying well over $10,000 for TEK scopes in the mid 90's, and if you wanted logic analyzers, protocol decoding and AWG (all of which were crude by todays standards and took FOREVER to setup), you easily spent $30k - infinity$. Today, hobby labs setup in the garage can have more functionality for a few thousand USD than professional labs just 25 years ago.
It might be interesting to keep the serial port hooked up while testing/reviewing it and see if there's a crash dump or anything
14:05 Triple Flux capacitors!
You’re spot-on about bring less $ than an iPhone or even a Samsung! It’s an interesting step-up for hobbyists above the 1054 etc. to get MSO features if hackable. Please compare with Siglent to show competition and with (say) Tek to see why they cost 5x more?
I know this intro to the MSO-5000 is 2 years old. However, consider that in the $999 configuration, you do get FOUR probes. If you value the probes at $35 ea., you’re only paying $30 for the 4-channels vs 2-channels capability. Also, it’s now well known this scope is hackable making it a huge functionality bargain. Personally I purchased the 5074 model with a 10% discount coupon then applied the hack so I have a fully configured MSO-5354 for $899.10! Hard to beat even with its list of faults.
@@David_94 DISCOUNTS - I called them and asked for the "BEST DEALS on the MSO5000 series" available. The sales rep pointed me at the Clearance Center and Current Promotions Links at the bottom of their home-page and offered me the 10% discount coupon code. Good luck....
Haven't seen one that locked up before? When the Agilent 3000 locked up it let out the magic smoke first in your EEVblog #147 - $12000 Smoke video.
Oh yeah, I'll pay that!
Those complaining about boot time, all modern ASIC based scopes are slow since huge amounts of code (firmware) must be downloaded and initialized to various ASICs on board. Minute and 15 seconds isn't really that bad, Dave Jones just being sarcastic I suspect ...
Thanks for all you do. I love your videos!
It really irks me that you can't see "through" the intensity graded traces. They should at least show the divs on top of the trace, if they can't manage to do proper alpha grading.
in 40 minutes it would be possible to show more features of functioning and ergonomic controls.
That model in particular is a 4000$ oscilloscope ... for 350MHz the specs versus price is really not that impressive at all.
It has been hacked...
The output on the RS232 is a typical boot log of an embedded Linux system. UBOOT is the boot loader and the command line after the boot gives access to all binaries, while the shell (ash) has already builtin commands. A command like "ls -al" gives a detailed list of the current dir. A "cd " is changing the path. The root of the path is "/" . Usually most binaries are in /usr/bin . In some cases the device specific binaries are in /usr/local/bin or /opt/bin. They have to be started with full path or a relative path like "./"
You "help" didn't worked because there is no such command on any linux system. Usually it's "man " but an embedded system will have no man pages at all.
except the help command _did_ work (see 22:50) - it gave a list of built-in commands. Yes, probably that's just a shell of some sort (though I'm not sure which shell that is -- bash has a built-in help, but it looks significantly different... probably some more stripped-down shell, but -I'm not familiar enough with those to guess which one- EDIT: 23:18 reveals it's "ash"), and thus much more than just the builtins are probably an option, and it would be fun to play around. I guess Dave isn't/wasn't super familiar with *nix shells, and so didn't realize what he had?
Looks like Rigol's CEO still has his kids "designing" the UI.
Maybe next time, Rigol. Maybe next time.
No matter what they design, a large group of people are going to make fun of them for it. UI designers can't win.
I am familiar with this. The boss gets what the boss wants, even if you have reams of docs and hundreds of hours if user tests. The boss will not be educated. oh well. sign that check dam you!
They're going for the gamer aesthetic, it's a gaming oscilloscope!
@@Armadurapersonal don’t give them ideas - they might add rainbow LEDs next
5:23
That's a weird way of saying "$1000 and about an hour firmware hack".
You helped me buy my first Rigol scope. I can still hear you “Rigiol, quality shit mate!”
there is the eeVBlog multi-meter - how long until the eeVBlog DSO ??
You mean the EEVblog MDO. Dave used to work on scopes so it is possible.
@@excitedbox5705
it should come complete with DAVE CAD in the Math Function
LOL
@14:34 the resistors next to the Xilinx Spartan FPGA, are for 0, 1 boolean binary digit selection pins. The FPGA code in the chip would have some specific settings that can be configured by setting those resistors as variables. It would be impossible to know what those settings actually control though.
I quite like the black, no good reason i just enjoy it
but if you can ever get it to lock up again im curious what happens to the freq gen output, if it locks to a voltage and does not go in to an error state where it grounds the output you can cause some problems
The console command help menu you got will not be "all" the commands. That is a BusyBox Linux shell and the "help" command will only list the internal BusyBox commands and not every executable on the system.
Why are the RTC batteries soldered to the PCB instead of using a battery holder? Do they assume that the scope will be so obsolete by the time the battery expires (10 year or so lifetime?) that no one will want to continue using the scope and will scrap it instead of going through the hassle of replacing the battery? Or is it more likely that other components will fail beyond economical repair before the battery dies?
The bottom sticker holder doesn't also seem to be consistent in size and the sticker doesn't look very level at 7.21. Maybe it is the shine from the black edges that brings it out.
Bought the DS1054Z based on your advice. And it's great. Does everything I need it to do and more.
Love your show!
Yeah, it does the job nicely.
So basically they designed a $999 scope in order to not sell even the lowest tier models at a loss and everything on top of that is just (supposedly justified) software feature unlocks. That's all great and everything, if you get a one of the $999-$2000 models, but such low build quality in the $5000 model is absurd. This business model actually reminds me of the state of the video game industry in 2018 and having to buy a bunch of DLCs to unlock the interesting content for your games.
The commands that popped up under "help" are standard Unix shell commands, very close to what you'd get typing "help" on e.g. a Linux laptop. Not sure if anyone's mentioned that yet.
Very good video Dave.
it is weird to see your bench so empty now that the lab is moved :D
Can you flick scroll those menus that fill more than a page or do you have to use the dial? - 28:54
One thing to consider: the scope is rated for CAT I. That means it is not rated to measure anything that is directly connected to mains (CAT II) or mains directly (CAT III). Depending on what type of hobbyist we are talking about, that might be relevant information.
you shouldn;t be plugging your scope into mains in the first place
Dave - It tickles me the way you apologise for video quality that is still better than 99.9% of UA-cam content.
"Check out the new scope based on their Phoenix chipset. The icon is a... what is that... an eagle?"
Black looks so much like lecroy scopes, but I do like it. Excited for this scope! Looks pretty good, especially if it's hackable, just they have to fix the lock up bug. Dislike the glossy screen though. But then again, haven't seen a touchy feely scope that has a non-gloss screen.
now lecroy, their scopes are just the definition of sexy test equipment :)
Isn't there a simple way to scuff up the plastic? Like with a chemical that tarnishes the glossy plastic finish, or something like that? To reduce all that glare on the very dim lcd. Speaking of which, maybe there are also other ways to modify this scope. For example increase the output of the backlight, etc. would be helpful.
@@dreamcat4 i wouldn't risk scratching the front of the lcd itself, but maybe you can get one of those glare-reducing filters for laptops or tablets to fit.
modifying backlight intensity should be possible if you can get to the leds, but i'm not sure about what that would do to the contrast ratio, and if it would be worth the trouble.
Rounding up my own thoughts about the unit:
It seems to have "decent" performance, the front end is simple enough, but could just be a high bandwidth analog mux with an inbuilt selectable amplifier, would kinda give the same expected circuit for the front end.
All the software options seems to be a ripoff, paying 300$ for the extra two channels that costs 90$ up front is nothing but a scam.
HDMI output is a welcomed addition in my opinion.
The color scheme seems like it has gotten a dose of the "gamer" marketing idea from the general PC world. (Should we expect RGB lighting and Noctua fans in the future? (Though, Noctua fans are though pricey and generally superb quality (not to mention practically silent) so that I wouldn't mind seeing.))
"intensity graded waveforms" suffers the same exact problem that all scope manufacturers have. Non of them seem to know the difference between fading to background color, and fading to 0% opacity. (Yes, the trace color should be static, it is the transparency that should change. (This can easily be checked by generating the 1KHz 100% AM modulated 1MHz signal on channel 1, and have a 90 degree offset 1KHz waveform on channel two. The second channel should then be visible in the faded regions of channel 1. (something it isn't on any scope I have ever seen. Except on analog scopes using the traditional electron beam.)))
10x probe sensing seems like the cheapest and easiest feature to add to a scope, after all, it is mostly just checking for continuity on the connection to see if it connects to ground, if it does, then it is a 10x probe most likely. (Only cost is to have a small PCB for the front of the unit, and literally 4 wires jumping over to the main board, here one can just use a typical 4 pin Fan connector used on most PC motherboards, mostly since it is a cheap and a well established connector.) So why doesn't all scopes have it? (Penny pinching is the answer, until someone wants market differentiation for their cheap scope.)
The inconsistent UI of this scope seems like it could get confusing rather fast. But the scope seems to be a bit lacking in its performance, I generally don't like working with an instrument that takes time to just react on my inputs to it. That it needs time to sample and such is totally fine, but clicking around in menus and such should never have an appreciable amount of lag. (Though, even Tektronix haven't really understood that yet....)
And now yes, this is too long and no one will really read it.
Then your wrong if you think that..give valid details about scopes and personal views on today's scope market is always welcome info.
and way better than one-line sentences that in practise doesn't say anything other than a thumbs up button would.
Thx for your comment... I enjoyed reading it.+1
I for one do like black colored lab equipment. Makes concentrating on active UI parts much easier. But maybe it's an age thing?
wanting to be able to identify board revision from fpga logic to mux in or out some workarounds or other board revision specific is a perfectly plausible thing to do, i usually make only the lower half discrete resistors and upper half hard connections in the layout to save space but still be able to differentiate between component population variations
Try "games" in the cli. Maybe its a WOPR in disguise.
They should spend the extra $10 and put good quality caps in it! If you’re getting a scope potentially worth $5000 you want it to last more than 3 years.
dave odessa - I cannot do any live streams for a few weeks due to other commitments, once I get a free weekend again I will be doing one.
If better caps mattered, and available for $10, they WOULD.
The main question is: can we hack the options?
yes it possible already.
isn't the point of this scope is that you would only buy the options needed, which you could do over a period of time if you're a hobbyist, so buying slightly above the base model gives you options, when money permits, to upgrade over time. Buying a 5k scope only to use a few options is overkill and over budget. Buying 1 up over base model then adding a couple of addition options when/if needed
Bundle includes all the decoding options and arb, so that's probably better value than buying all the options separately.
I also own this oscilloscope. What I noticed is that the decoder only works properly when "enough" data is flowing. For example, if I store a "Hello World" on a serial EEPROM via I2C, nothing is decoded. Only after 2-3 seconds of communication the Rigol starts to decode.
When I try this with my Saleae 16Pro, the communication is completely decoded. Even the $5 Dollar things from eBay with the Sigrok software can do this without any problems.
Otherwise I am quite satisfied with the device. At least it covers my needs so far. But the Logic Analyser is a horrible one. And that already starts with the operation.
Using lots of different fonts on their devices gives them that sweet Ransom Note Effect - so hip!
Wow, it looks almost like that scope has a shell. Crazy.
I really want to poke around with that thing, the Linux nerd in me is very curious.
The HW Ver surely must be identifying the hardware revision to the software / firmware.
the software on this thing is terrible for the price point, oh the irony...this was the company that forced other companies to re-think low cost.
Latest firmware fixes most of the issues and it seems pretty solid now. That said it's only really worth getting if you buy 2ch 70Mhz and plan hacking it, when it's hacked its a lot of scope for the money.
"I just turned on the scope. Time to make a coffee."
Go catch a flick, there's no hurry getting back.
To say there is no studio lighting up yet, the video quality is pretty respectable to be honest!
Some flicker + noise on the image due to high sensor gain. It's ok, but not great.
The table at 37:43 is wrong. a) MSO is included and require no options. You just need to buy a probe (400$ very expensive), or create your own. b) It looks like you used $269+$897=1166$ as a price for serial decode options and arb gen, which looks to be unfair/incorrect, because you can get a full serial triger and decode (all protocols!) + signal gen + power analysis option, all together for 699$. (MSO5000-BND upgrade). So the bottom left corner both Low and High BW sections are off by 467$.
This puts even fully optioned out low BW models VERY competitive with other scopes. And actually just below the price of Siglent for 70MHz and 100MHz BW versions.
+700$ for all serial decodes, waveform generator and power analyzer option bundle. Not terribly bad. Yes, it sounds a lot on its own, but if you add this up to the base price, it is still cheap. You can also get options individually (i.e. just some serial protocols, etc), but it doesn't make any sense price wise from what I can see (every protocol, waveform and power analyzer is 270-300$ per option!). So once you want to go with UART, I2C and signal gen, you should go with a bundle and get all other options cheaper. Plus probably 100$ for digital probes. Considering you need to spend about 3800$ on R&S with such options, and you can get 1700$ from Rigol (for 70MHz), or 2200$ (for 100MHz), it is not bad after all. Sure, it doesn't have 10 bit ADC, or super high res screen, but still, pretty powerful for the price. But at the high end of the bandwidth, R&S is better value proposition than Rigol.
Whats that fine button do in the acquisition menu? it probably has high res but under another functionality name or so.
I wonder now that more and more have hdmi output, when will they finally not only clone the output, but use it as an expanded display? waveform on the scope, serial on the monitor etc.
I like to watch these videos and pretend I know what he's talking about.
Retro Fix he lost me at the flux capacitors
@@ManwithaCat Please anybody, what was that turn on thingy he pressed? :-)
@@friedmule5403
Let me get back to you , I'm still trying to find the datasheet,
I've got schematics but they seem to be incomplete and partially smudged by coffee stains
Although I have several Rigol instruments I would have to pass on this unit. I think the Siglent would be a better choice. Thanks for sharing this Dave.
Likely better bang-per-buck.
EEVblog It has been hacked. Insane deal for 999$!
kinda disappointing some of this compared to the $600 aussie bucks Siglent SDS1104X-E. The Siglent doesn't have the dedicated digital channels (does serial decode on the standard channels) or signal generator (add-on extra), but seems like the Siglent quality is better in general.
But maybe that's just me justifying my purchase ;)
I would buy it for the black case alone. Looks cool.
The heatsinks are all crooked!!! What???
Thanks for sharing 👍😀
Nice review 😄
Yes please compare against Siglent
Dave, can you get hold of one of the 8 channel (up to 64 digital channels!) Tektronix scopes? I'd be curious to know if there's anything interesting about the analog front end or how it handles 8 full analog channels in terms of memory and sampling... MSO58XX or the "5" series scopes.
Most tech I prefer in black, TVs, computers, hi fi but for some reason a DSO just doesn't look right. Who's with me?
If it'll be hackable it might be a keeper.
already hacked on eevblog forum
My first thought when I saw the black case was that it is just a prototype unit. It is different from what I'm used to seeing for scopes and other equipment. Not sure if I like it. Might take some time to get used to it. I noticed the $90 extra for 4 channels. Why bother with 2 channel models? I still don't like the channel 2 and 4 colours. I would like see more contrasting colours. The use of keys to software upgrade these devices tends to feel a bit like a form of bait and switch. You can wind up paying almost double (or more) of the original price of the unit after you pay for all the optional extras. :P
It could be a pre-production model.
I’ll stick with my Tek 2465B. Great review as usual.
10:38 Not an eagle...an osprey?
I was thinking falcon.
Interesting that it uses sunon maglev fans. Sunon is the OEM for the quite expensive Corsair maglev fans for PC cases etc. Maybe they have just speeced the fan to run quite fast hence the whine.
Maybe, sounds like is has a bearing loose or something.
Wow, big money.
10:31the central heatsink is not properly aligned and the thermal paste / tape doesn't cover all the chip... Oppsie
I would love for you to revisit this scope. I have one and like it other than a few gotchas.
Looks like a your typical gamer keyboard aesthetic. Would be great if the release a standard white one.
I do believe it’s great 4 channel scope for
Did you end up deciding? The Siglent isn't as ugly, but all the serial licences get expensive. I'm not sure if anyone made a hack for the Siglent scopes.
After a long debate I purchased a rigol 4000 series 350 scope over the siglent about a year-and-a-half ago ultimately I was impressed with the 4000 and I thought to myself wow for an extra $1,000 this year could really be a very nice scope well I guess this is the next generation and quite frankly I find it underwhelming based on your review they really missed the mark and by the way I hate the black color thanks for the review Dave
Now just take that money you saved on the scope and purchase some punctuation lessons. :p
14:06 , three flux capacitors!
Thanks Dave
I like the black finish.
people in China crack the 70m version into 250, same hardware....diffferent firmware to limit bandwidth
Didn't do the tap on the bnc connector test...
Those Sunon MagLev fans are a huge disappointment. I highly recommend their ball bearing fans, but MagLev MTBF no different than sleeve bearing in my experience. We replace all non-ball bearing OE fans with ball when gear is new, and never look back. Cheers
hightttech Interesting. I was under the impression that MagLev were high reliability.
@@SolidStateWorkshop : We thought the same thing. We replace fans in equipment every day. We were seeing 5 - 10 YEARS from Sunon ball bearing fans; often they lasted the useful life of the gear -- AMAZING!!! Well, not so with the MagLev; they made a HUGE problem for us. When MagLev first appeared, Sunon promoted the heck out of them. We bought cases of various sizes. When they began failing like cheap, sleeve bearing fans, in 1 -2 years, we were shocked. And so were our clients. Those fans cost us a ton of money in field service calls, damaged gear, hours and hours and hours. I trusted Sunon. I still have boxes of MagLev fans collecting dust, on a high shelf, in the deepest, darkest parts room. We use them when we flip old gear that we'll never see again. My friend, repeat after me, "I will only buy BALL BEARING FANS for family, friends and clients.". Screw MagLev. Cheers.
@@hightttech can't find a reference now (might have been toms hardware?) but I saw an article examining fan failures, specifically maglev fans. From what they concluded, at least in PCs, was the fans were failing due to dust ingress, since the sealing wasn't much better than a sleeve-bearing fan (so essentially nonexistent). Even the cheaper ball-bearing fans with shielded bearings (not sealed) did significantly better at keeping dust out of the bearing elements. While the mag fans theoretically don't make contact, the clearances are small enough that dust ingress will foul the mechanism relatively quickly.
@@zrobotics : Thank you for info. I agree that dust is the main offender, heat inside hot power supplies next. Unfortunately, nothing we can do about dirty and/or hot except use ball bearing fans which are more tolerant to both. I've seen Sunon ball bearing fans spinning away after 10 years, whining due to worn bearings, dry lude and dirt caked all over -- AND STILL COOLING. Absolutely remarkable. (edit): BTW, in equipment we service, it's not uncommon for us to see power supplies and video cards last 5 - 10 years simply because we replaced the crappy OE fans when equipment was new. They last 6 - 24 months tops with OE fans. That's why we got screwed with MagLev -- we had to cover premature failures under service agreements. Bad memories.
JUST BUY NOCTUA PC FANS THEY ARE THE BEST AND QUIETTEST AND HAS BRASS SEALED CERAMIC BEARINGS
I wonder if this would be a good upgrade in the future to my little USB 20MHz Hantek 6022BL scope/logic analyzer. Maybe sometime in the future!
Which scope would you recommend for $1000.
FWIW I've had scope software lockups with my trusty DS1052E and also with my LeCroy 9314AM
I love the design of this one, but I suppose it should be different if it's for a more professional market. Keep the design for a cheap one and I'd buy it immediately.
Am I the only who can appreciate a functional lab that also looks slick? It's part of the reason I went with Ersa soldering station.
I am with you on that. A nice work space lowers stress and makes a more productive workforce.
Awesome, Yes pls, do a comparison against the SDS2000, I was JUST abt to push the buy button on a MSO2072A... On hold for now... :-D
I wonder if it is eligible for the same discount upgrade that DS1054Z is.
So how many of the "upgrades" are software driven vs actual hardware changes? How difficult would it be to er, "hack" the software to upgrade a bottom of the line scope to the top of the line?
They're all software.
Looks like the Screen is on VGA mode or worse..
The amount a people here complaining that Dave's definition of _low cost is $1000_ is unreal. _"If I can't get a 4 channel 8 GS/s 500 MHz scope with a built in 16 channel analyzer with all the probes for $400 then the manufacture is stealing!"_ LOL... get real.
Well, you can't for $1k either.
It's like people complaining about "expensive" single-board computers, because they cost more than a raspberry pi.
Dave's been full of himself for a while now... He's dangerously close to leaking shite.
@@Sonex1542 Why do you still watch his videos, if that is your opinion. You have to respect people have other idees than your own without beeing full of shit...... I like Dave and respect that he can have his own opionion. Just like myself. Get real.
Your $1000 is almost 500% off from the actual cost which is much closer to 5k. Obviously they can afford to sell the unit for $1000 since everything else is software and not even very advanced software in comparison to other stuff that costs $20-30 for a license. Yes I understand not as many people buy this compared to other stuff but code for a AWG is not that much work and they want hundreds of $ for it. So 4000 for a few software upgrades of very basic software is where we have a problem.
Have a nice day
I apologize for the message, I wanted to ask you about an oscilloscope, I just plan to buy a similar one
I read in the manual about the function of recording the waveform from the input channels and the ability to transmit using the built-in generator.
But I could not find information, is it possible to record 2 signals from different channels at the same time and transmit them simultaneously using different outputs of the generator
Recorded on equipment and reproduced, I want to use it to test IGBT drivers from UPS on the desktop. There is no desire to work near the equipment, as the voltage is about 800 volts.
2 separate channels come to the IGBT control board, if there is no one signal or not at the right time, then the board cannot be checked.
Sincerely
A lot of those commands look very unixy, so it's probably a cut down command shell like busybox. I'm surprised there's no ls.
The phoenix chipset is the one that catches fire regularly.
*Up to $5000 scope and CapXons?!?!?!?!?!?*
Yup :-(
My $5 small volume product for hobbyst friends had genuine panasonic caps >.
Any feedback on if they’ve improved the firmware on Rigol’s or has the improvement on Siglent been better?
So, any updates to your 7+ year old recommendation of the Rigol DS1052E scope for basic lab equipment?
the DS1000E was left in the dust by the DS2000A Series
at that time of him recommending , i went with the DS2000A series
then a while later the DS1000E were all on gumtree for sale for the DS1054Z
and it seems like everyone was buying them
However... THE ONE THAT STILL STANDS ABOVE IS THE DS2000A SERIES in terms of specs, it also still has a larger screen
but the DS1000E , Shit , does anyone still use that anymore ?
i see no benefit to buying one
Does the scope have a plastic smell to it, if you keep it on a workbench, can you feel its smell in the workspace?
Well i'm liking the black. Its about time equipment stopped looking like it should be in a hospital ;o)
You can keep it!
Good, it's not just me that's noticed the "medical instrumentation" style a lot of scopes have.
Mind you, when Dave goes to hospital, they probably hook some probes up to his test points and attach a scope to him.
@@jamesgrimwood1285 When Dave goes to hospital, they dont turn the equipment on, they tear it apart ;o)
@@Rcmodelgeeks You mean they stick a pry tool up his clacker, and then they're in like Flynn? :)
I agree... that bone white that has been used that yellows after a few years is getting kinda old.
Only new hippy thing i don't like is them bright blue LED's that usually goes with a black case other than that i like black covers.
Have to check the power supply on one of these.
I'll check the fuse first.
Soldered to board 🙄
what does Mixed Signal mean?
Digital and analog channel sampling at the same time