I was hoping we would get some Chaos/Beastmen options. Bestigor would be perfect as a Durable Charger sort of enemy. A Chaos Warrior to hold a line and do heavy melee damage, Chaos Sorcerers to slow the heroes down from a distance. Looks fun either way, though.
Sorcerers would be too good imo (pop down a storm in a cliff and you've single-handedly eliminated the enemy team) and Chaos Warriors are kinda slow but would be cool. Bestigors are definitely a charger equivalent.
Dont think the elites should be controllable. There should be a fair bit more of em around, at least from all the second hand info ive gathered from the people who got to play. We deffo need chaos sorcerers and leeches to be available. Beastmen too, but I dont know if FS would be willing to do it with them being a DLC and all. Oh yeah also bosses, like the tank in L4D should be given control to a random player when they spawn.
Playing as a Ratling Gunner is so cool! This will definitely be a fun experience in game. Very Left 4 Dead Versus, but give the Special Infected a minigun.
Left 4 Dead did versus mode so well it’s surprising there wasn’t more copycats like this until now. It’s a great framework to build on and it looks like Fatshark have done a very good job in bringing that same experience to Vermintide
@@half.blight The ratling is weak but I feel like its main utility is in stopping the heroes from aiming properly, most people see it as a pure DPS option - and so dismiss it as underpowered - when really that's more what the warpfire does. The ratling is a long-range suppressor that allows the other rats to move unhindered.
I do hope they add some of the chaos specials like the sorcerers and warriors especially the bulky warriors giving the defenders a tank to play around.
something interesting about L4D versus balance was why they added the spitter and the charger to L4D2, it was really easy for survivors to find a hidey hole and not be driven out all game. charger could easily disrupt by stunning a group and we all know how the spitter is to stationary targets.
Except the point is to go from A to B, so if the survivors just sit in a hole, they're not progressing, and any little damage counts. In L4D/2, health is extremely finite, actually finding a medkit is a godsend.
@@g80gzt i think he means during any times of stress. you are still limited by ammo, but being able to safely turtle any threat for a (long) while is a big issue
@@g80gzt true, but the campaign also has a LOT of events that require you to wait in a specific area for an allotted time, usually accompanied with a massive horde, which allows the spitter to shine when the players find a good turtle spot
sitting in dead ends all huddled up doesnt work in VT because gas rats and blightstormers albeit that blightstormers dont seem to be implemented thus far and between the limited spawn options and the inherent premade bonus as well as lack of general spawns it honestly doent make me excited to play versus monsters in general can also fill a similair role to chargers but those arent playable either but yea - the game does have very functional counter measures to that type of play and on really high difficulty like cata + twitch its not a strategy for winning consistently overall having space to move is a much better position to be in at all times
The Beastmen also have a charger, maybe make so if he colides with someone he can grab and drag them instead of just a quick knock down like its in game rn
You're right about that big plays moment, I remembered the satisfying experience of playing as the Charger, hiding in that one room and charge as soon as the door open killing the player by knocking them out of the window of the l4d2 first level.
@@marconarvaez9871 not every map has a cliff like that, and the Pactsworn NEEDS to have disablers that open up chances for other Pactsworn to attack. they should remove Healing Draughts (have only healing kits), remove talents, and increase horde and ambient enemy density. it SHOULD feel weighted slightly in favor of the Pactsworn.
@@JondarKorric and now you make the argument why the talents were present in the alpha, both sides are meant to still have fun after all or do people just want to ruin this because they want to be sweaty like what happened to the Left 4 Dead Versus community taking the gamemode way too fucking seriously.
@@JondarKorric You don't need to remove anything for the U5. Just beef up AI spawns/strengths and give the Pactsworn more choices to choose from, including disablers. The only reason it's so onesided right now is because the player controlled pactsworn are just too weak to make the smaller amount of enemy mobs and weaker bosses be of any real danger to players who have an inkling of an idea of what they're doing.
There is one other thing too, from what the gameplay showed there isn't really melee animations for some of the pactsworn right? like if you are a special infected in L4D2 at least you can swipe at a survivor, but in this it looks like at least, if you miss a pounce you're just dead (using gutter runner as a example). They should have a melee animation at least
@@atlaszeik9239 Gutter Runners can also pounce before spawning too which makes it easier for them to get them on rooftops. It's not quite as insane as old Hunter wall jumping but it and the assassin being able to flash for escape and use jumps prior to spawning are both very nice.
I feel like from your description if they added the ability to play the other Skaven special units it would create those better opportunities to disrupt or kill heroes that get seperated. I feel they have done a good job listening to the community and making adjustments so there is ample room for them to release a solid versus mode.
Some suggestions without adding more specials, and avoidinh recycling other comments 1. Give the pack master a posse like the necromancer, maybe using alt fire to give commands and they auto target a grabbed hero if no prior commands. 2. Add coloured marking of the heroes so the pactswarm can each select a target. 3. Give some generic horde control during respawns. Examples include, swapping patrol routes on the map, or getting to place 5 normals/3 upgraded norms/1 elite per life. 4. Allow players to vote on the boss to use, and make them a bit more specialised. E.g. bile troll tries to separate the team with area denial, chaos spawn tries to grab and hold high dps, stormfiend aims for grouped enemies and rat ogre goes for lowest health. That way there is interesting thoughts going into the AI monsters thinking about pactsworn synergy and hero counters such as a zealot locks down a rat ogre well as he appears low health but is a great choice if all the pactsworn do better as damage dealers over control characters.
Maybe they should add a Skaven Gutterrunner with shuriken type of skirmish unit? Could a hit and run type of gameplay be an improvement? Does the game tell the Skaven players what the next Ai Boss/special will be, that would help the Players to strategise and make good character picks.
Yeah, being able to sneak up to U5 players as elites/berserkers to do lethal damage while they're getting harassed and distracted by ranged specials would actually make it balanced. Maybe you should be able to "evolve" into a Monster too if you're playing exceptionally well as Pactsworn 😁
Would be cool if they added some playable storm vermin or something similar so that the rats could have a better frontline. Even though the zombies, clan rats, and slaves slaves are supposed to be the front line, it’s nice to have an intelligent front line capable of defending the back line, similar to the charger example you already made.
right at the end you might have found a good strat, use a globadier to effectively deploy a smoke screen, then use a harder to avoid character like the gunner to oppress the heros while they have trouble seeing you
I wanted to be 'that guy' sitting behind the stained glass windows singing jolly fat guy songs and totally safe in drachenfel's castle. I guess fat shark was hip to my game. I've only had to put up with the enemies doing it for like 4 years.
The mental damage I could inflict by constantly dropping storms in confined areas and teleporting away to safety. With a dream of having voice chat that can be heard by the opposing team so I could do my impression of, "Stormy weather, come together!", incessantly. @@kylepope1186
I think by playing around with respawn-timers, they could greatly affect the balancing and add in more classes for the pactsworn. Like giving the team the chance to play a sorcerer every 50 seconds, but only one person at a time. And if you select sorcerer, your respawn until u spawn as the sorcerer increases to, let's say 30 or 40 seconds, because his ability is simply alot stronger than that of others.
I feel like if you can play the elites too, then you might be able to ignore the lower damage of the special. Calling in hordes would also be very helpful.
@ezkiller93 that makes sense, actually. So, instead of playing as an elite, then maybe you can just play as like a rat that has a bunch of like clanrats or skavenslaves around him like the necromancer?
Still not good enough. If I had to suggest something is that we control some sort of "exclusive versus" type of enemy that is capable of doing advanced melee and ranged combat (like parrying, dodging, shooting, etc, pretty much like the heroes)
@@spellgazer754 That could be one way. A necromancer type enemy that summons chaff. Or perhaps, a plague priest atop a mobile screaming bell (something akin to that anyway) that needs to be within a certain radius of the U5, and when he's in it he can start the bell - and if it tolls for the 13th time, it summons a skaven horde.
Mindset is important here. I had the most fun in L4D when I didn't play to win but to make the match the most fun for everyone involved. Sure, trying to win as the zombies was still a factor but whenever I felt like the survivors were too good I just tried to have as much fun as possible and maybe goof around a little. Same went the other way around, just trying to have fun and not necessarily winning. The true win was when everyone had fun. I remember some fond memories when both teams just fucked around and did stupid stuff instead of actually playing the game. I feel like if everyone has that mindset the game is in a healthy state and matches are actually worth the time and energy.
but for as basics are concerned this does lovly. but ya in the long terms the community is about as old as that were you can just after the waves of pvp antics get loved find the odd lobby and chill/vibe because soneone had a dumb idea.
Yeah, the similarity between Vermintide and L4D2 was so obvious I am even surprised they copied the versus mode ONLY now... They should have done that so many years ago... I've no problem with games copying other good games' design ideas (particularly if they are good enough to change the setup and overall design to make it not just a ripoff). It's obvious Vermintide's devs took heavy inspiration on L4D serie. So why didn't they went all the way taking as well the very popular "versus mode" from L4D2 right for release?... Whatever, it's finally here now. But, damn, it took them so long, lol.
so as one of CAT there was instakilling bdw and yes it was hookrat (packmaster). if team could catch 1 offguard everion could swarm that one. and about the dmg gasrat could give like rly big dmg. hookrat could take someone and run with the hero off the cliff on screaming bell and even warpfire on good position could do the same. and you need to think there are specials you didnt see in game and thats a blight stormer, leacher and banner carier
Spoken like someone who either didn't play L4D Versus or has less than 10 hours experience in it. You do not know how bad L4D Versus was. Survivors were too strong, Infected were bickering in chat constantly because someone didn't spawn at the correct time and angle. FatShark are repeating the same stupid design with this game. Ubersreik is too strong. You will be bored while playing Ubersreik. You will be frustrated while playing Skaven.
I could see some more specialized rats that are relatively harder to kill, like a storm vermin lieutenant that lets you play as a melee bruiser that is relatively hard to take down so the good guys has to unify their damage rather then just pull their gun up and delete you in one shot (this specialized storm vermin needs to be tough enough to resist blessed bullet and similar single target damage nukes so you have some form of staying power), and when it comes to a horde summoner i could see them use a plague rat with a bell flail that lures his fellow rats to his location once he waves the flail around like a banner. By the looks of it i think the Skaven playable units are too fragile and need more durable specialists, need a little more warpstone to their damage as well as a means to rile up their brood to engage in enemy concentrated areas. Either way i look forward to see what other unique twists Vermintide Versus has in store for everyone.
I haven't played Vermintide in a while, but did play a lot back then. And l4d as well, so I can't imagine how the skaven team will do well without something like a bloater or a charger. As I recall, the non-human teams would usually only win when they make a big play during a swarm. God bloater plays were the best, especially when you hit all 4 players with bloater goop and you get to watch the chaos from your killcam. Likewise, during vermintide I remember a lot of wipes usually came from getting hit with a warp storm while in the middle of fighting off a swarm. Lol, I finished watching the video and indeed you covered everything I wanted to say, almost. Don't forget about witches! Vermintide doesn't have witches!
I think it's important to remember that the v2 crew are a lot different then the left for dead crew, the left for dead crew live off there guns, the vermtide crew live off there melee weapons
Since we're drawing parallels to L4D, is there a "shout" that packspawn do to alert heroes to their presence? In L4D hearing each distinct special infected shout and melody is very helpful for knowing what to expect. Not having that in vermintide could be a boon.
so, I do think thatwith what you have mentioned. there are still the Chaos and beastment Specials Beastmen have like... 1 special (the banner carrier) It might be a good idea to add some more variety there First off- the Pact-sworn chaos specials include: The blight stormer- who can toss out tornadoes that can isolate and cause a bit of damage. They also have the life leach who can teleport and.... if they manage to grab an enemy- suck all their life away VERY FAST. THe beastment have again... just the bannersman. However I think adding the missing links here might be a good idea. Right now we have the Beastigor, who only knocks enemies down, and otherwise acts more like a chaos warrior. Maybe by tweaking it, you can make a charger style Beastman who grabs an enemy and pins them to a wall, or does the charger thing of grabbing one guy and dragging them off a cliff or far away Additionally, you can add a beastman shaman, or Chaos sorcerer style character who can act as a boomer style character. Walking up, spewing a liquid at somone, and causing nearby hoard enemies to become hyper aggressive against one of the characters
Imagine being able to play as bosses too, as of the charger if we could play as elites like some buffed better version of bestigor that can charge through all 4 heroes, also Standard Bearer could be cool too (i would love to play as CW obviously too).
playing the alpha too, in my experience this is focused even more on good teamplay, when you are able to take the right classes on the rat side and in a good balance you can for example split two people of the enemy team of and push them around so a hook can use the confusion and take one even further for example. ora double gas rats to push a group in two seperate directions. like it. Just interested to see how the gearing and leveling will play out aswell as how maybe difficulties like cata and all may be implemented to densen the hordes and all. But honestly just a great basis to play for fun, just like lfd2 back in the days.
It's awesome to see they are working on such a mode. I figured it would be a given, considering how L4D did it and this one is heavily inspired by it. But better late than never!
i think the best solution would be to allow the players to also play as the chaos chosen/sorcerers and beastmen for the "Charger and boomer." sort of rolls. The sorcerers summon winds of chaos can delay them, dmg over time and fling them backwards. Chaos chosen are heavy hitters with lotta armor, and beastmen have a strong headbutt/charge ability.
one change they could make is limit the healing throughout the map, and make and aditional point system based on the remaining health each character has at the end of the map
I think it would be cool to add an invasion option to ordinary matches (that can be toggled on or off before match) that would allow a player to join your current match as a pack sworn and help deter you. Maybe if you complete the match with this feature on, you get xp towards the chest upgrade at the end of the match.
Mad lads actually did it... But it looks like they need to spice up the Skaven comapred to the SP/COOP - like giving the Grabber ability to grab and toss the Heroes - for example into a pit of spikes or off-ledges for that constant enviromental danger.
The packmasters main problem is, that it only ever works during normal co op gameplay during Large waves, when it can sneak amongst the chaos and grab someone, by comparison to say L4D's Smoker equivilient, that grabs people from range, it's at a pretty big disadvantage.
Yes this could be great for Darktide. I imagine players controlling flamers, Bombers, pox bursters and Mutants or even Crushers doing a co-ordinated attack as a group could be a real menace to the Reject team there. Especially if you do it at the same time as a monstrosity spawns. It's good to see FS experimenting with this, hopefully it'öö evolve and get a good balance to it.
I will say, not commenting on missing features, cuz it's an alpha, but they should program so the losing team plays the map first. It's kinda bad that the game would end just because one team got to full score rather than giving a chance for all teams to enjoy the experience.
the seams and sounds extremely fun and beyond the criticism in the video which can be tweaked and changed this actually seems like a really good idea and good new game mode
One thing I found was kinda dumb is that if you die, you don't respawn, but if you leave after dying and someone replaces you, they will respawn. This weirdly encourages leaving once you die. I had a game where we worked to take someone down, and were doing pretty good in the 3v4, but someone new joined and all our work was just erased.
I thing the scoring should be based on damage taken by the Human team and respectively damage done by the Skaven team. The winner should be the team which took the less damage as Humans and the most damage as Skaven.
For a Close Beta it is actually really well polished. I'm not mad that it's not exactly optimized as well as the L4d2 Versus but it has a lot of potential. I am willing to bet that we'll probably get access to the Bosses later down the road.
what i'm hoping for: playing as the chaos/beastmen specials (Leech, Blight stormer, standard bearer) ability to play as elites and berserkers (Plague monks, stormvermin, chaos warriors, maulers, frothers, bestigors, ) ability to play as the bosses maybe play as the lords but i'm not holding my breath on that at all
The most important balancing aspect is the hero's ability to range one shot. This nullifies skaven melee damage as it is hard to approach and nullifies ranged damage as it's 100 bullets vs 1 bullet. There are other aspects but this is the main difference from this and left for dead. I don't generally like flat number buffs as a balancing method as there isn't skill expression but the balance starting point probably needs to require 2 ranged attacks to kill a skaven special. But I might be weird, I don't like most games that allow a sniper one shot ability. Left for dead has more times and chances for survivors to split up as well. Vermintide feels like it has bigger maps but l4d2 seems like you can and do split up more. Part of that is the melee vs ranged focus in the two games. Line of site plays a bigger part and the team will naturally group as you melee charge into enemies. Looks like this will be easy to be a good game once they add more specials but i'd like to see progression between matches instead what currently looks like a short best of three though that may just be beta. Have crappy weapons. let them pick up crafting components throughout the level to have better equipment next go. Gives progression and a reason for them to split up a bit. I'm not generally big on crafting but weapon upgrades are nice while playing and it's less of an issue if it's match upgrades compared to grinding for forever upgrades.
Maybe instead of a flat damage buff, specials' damage could increase per second of uninterrupted damage? So their chip damage is still low but those "big play" moments, where you pounce an isolated player or machine gun or bomb a cornered player, do a lot of damage.
Feels like those specials could do with a slightly bigger kit. They only have a single attack/ability each, and some of them have really long cooldowns on them. Imo they should at least add a basic melee attack for each one so you have something you can do when you've fired your shot and are about to be turned into rat patê by the Übersreik 5.
its finally happening YES. to reply to a lot of what was said as complaints in the video to add my 2 sense even though I haven't played it, I think the reason they lack a lot of the more oppressive units is cause those aren't specialist in this game, and it has been in development hell since forever likely figuring out how to make it less one sided and also Darktide being their focus. Stormvermin and Chaos Knights are examples of elites not specials, but would fulfill the role of something that can summon a horde and be more oppressive like they are already in the game as AI, however that's why they are elites and decently tanky, so makes sense with how fast the respawn is, but maybe they could limit how fast they can appear by making it a system like Battlefront 2 where you have to score enough points to earn an elite. Basically part of the reason it feels like they push so fast and you can't make plays is you're lacking one of the more important units in the design of encounters during the gameplay to make it so players can't just rush through too fast. It is Alpha though so as long as there is feedback hopefully this becomes really good.
Low dmg but barely any healing in the level would be a pretty decent option as well imo. So that one mistake wont kill you but if the packsworn do make a massive play it then sticks so it doesn't feel so bad.
The rats really need a beefy character to soak up a few more hits or a captain to call in a concentrated swarm, control the ai, and thus, with more rats attacking the players allow their allies to live a bit longer. Even stormvermin would be gpod
if I remember correctly, packsworn was both skaven and nurgle chaos, I only see skaven specials as the only playables, I really would have liked to be a chaos warrior or spawn😢
They got a good skelteon of the mod in they missing still a lot but who knows how will it looks in the end. If we lucky we might get a updated version into darktide too.
This alpha looks super promising. I do hope the offer a proper ammount of support rather than it being a off hand game mode. Plenty of maps and perhaps the abilty to play as bosses. Super exciting to see it actually playable. Really appreciate Fat Shark sticking with it dispite the alpha delay and overall VT2 life time. I apprecate Fat Shark for their endurance dispite being rather slow at development.
There should be more "specials" to control. Maybe even bosses as well, but the Ai control stuff should also be slightly more dangerous. It'll help with damage. But it can't be a true pvp mode, left 4 dead vs mode is more like a players and environment vs. players. That's simply how it's balanced in the game, so it should as well in vermintide. But thier is the problem of lesser specials and bosses, how are they going to balance that if they can be controlled? Including the hordes of armor, image the controlled timing on that! But more testing is required.
tbh I never got into vermintide but now with this new mode I will pick it up. I did really love totalwar warhammer and by far the skaven is one of my favorite factions to play as so I we can get to see some more rat options to play as like stormvermin.
this seems set on lower difficulties for the damage done to U5, can you choose the difficulty? If not, we might expect the specials dealing more damage when we can set higher difficulties
Darktide versus would be the first PVP fps 40k game like... ever. Crazy to think it took so long for any Warhammer version to take this long to have a PvP fps game
Just judging purely off of the shown gameplay and my experience in L4D2, the elite Skaven need more hp to be able to last more that 2 seconds after revealing themselves. In L4D2, even weaker special infected have decent health that unless you are headshotting them (which is really hard to do they all have small heads) they will last for a while before dying to the hail of bullets or jump around and avoiding them altogether. Something like a Charger can 1v1 a survivor close-range even if he misses his charge, as his normal attack is fierce and his health pool is large. When a charger does pin a survivor, he's able to do it for a while due to the health pool, meaning it requires a lot of attention from the other survivors. The ratling gunner should play like a TF2 Heavy, he should be able to soak up some damage before going down, and encourage attacking him either when he is out of position or reloading. If they wanted to add in a smoker-like they could make a Skaven with a harpoon gun, you have to break the chain or kill the gunner. Overall they should increase the base HP of all played rats, I would almost say double, and increase the spawn delay to compensate to encourage strategic plays and less spam.
Perfectly summed up! Also the exclusion of some specials allows for an easier time for the heroes. I would at the very least like these to be AI controlled.
Holy shit, they're finally doing it...
several years too late
@@ExceedProduction I don't care tbh, I love this game.
@@ExceedProduction yeah, kinda sad it came this late.
“They finally did it”
What? Finish copying L4D, a decade old game..
@@TayloredRedWing no, you mean... Vermintide is inspired by L4D???? I never noticed omg 😱
I was hoping we would get some Chaos/Beastmen options. Bestigor would be perfect as a Durable Charger sort of enemy. A Chaos Warrior to hold a line and do heavy melee damage, Chaos Sorcerers to slow the heroes down from a distance. Looks fun either way, though.
Right? I thought we might get at least lifeleech, maybe they're working on them.
Sorcerers would be too good imo (pop down a storm in a cliff and you've single-handedly eliminated the enemy team) and Chaos Warriors are kinda slow but would be cool. Bestigors are definitely a charger equivalent.
Dont think the elites should be controllable. There should be a fair bit more of em around, at least from all the second hand info ive gathered from the people who got to play. We deffo need chaos sorcerers and leeches to be available. Beastmen too, but I dont know if FS would be willing to do it with them being a DLC and all. Oh yeah also bosses, like the tank in L4D should be given control to a random player when they spawn.
Maybe in the future
Keep in mind this is only the alpha
0:31 bardin jumpscare
Wazzock!
Vineboom Sound*
Boga!
Stairs
ROCK AND STONE!
Playing as a Ratling Gunner is so cool! This will definitely be a fun experience in game.
Very Left 4 Dead Versus, but give the Special Infected a minigun.
I’d like to try the warpfire thrower more🙈
Left 4 Dead did versus mode so well it’s surprising there wasn’t more copycats like this until now. It’s a great framework to build on and it looks like Fatshark have done a very good job in bringing that same experience to Vermintide
@@Srrrgpit's unfortunate the warpfire and ratling is pretty weak
@@half.blight they should perhaps buff it juuuust a little
@@half.blight The ratling is weak but I feel like its main utility is in stopping the heroes from aiming properly, most people see it as a pure DPS option - and so dismiss it as underpowered - when really that's more what the warpfire does. The ratling is a long-range suppressor that allows the other rats to move unhindered.
I do hope they add some of the chaos specials like the sorcerers and warriors especially the bulky warriors giving the defenders a tank to play around.
something interesting about L4D versus balance was why they added the spitter and the charger to L4D2, it was really easy for survivors to find a hidey hole and not be driven out all game. charger could easily disrupt by stunning a group and we all know how the spitter is to stationary targets.
Except the point is to go from A to B, so if the survivors just sit in a hole, they're not progressing, and any little damage counts. In L4D/2, health is extremely finite, actually finding a medkit is a godsend.
@@g80gzt i think he means during any times of stress. you are still limited by ammo, but being able to safely turtle any threat for a (long) while is a big issue
@@g80gzt true, but the campaign also has a LOT of events that require you to wait in a specific area for an allotted time, usually accompanied with a massive horde, which allows the spitter to shine when the players find a good turtle spot
sitting in dead ends all huddled up doesnt work in VT because gas rats and blightstormers albeit that blightstormers dont seem to be implemented thus far and between the limited spawn options and the inherent premade bonus as well as lack of general spawns it honestly doent make me excited to play versus
monsters in general can also fill a similair role to chargers but those arent playable either
but yea - the game does have very functional counter measures to that type of play and on really high difficulty like cata + twitch its not a strategy for winning consistently overall
having space to move is a much better position to be in at all times
A Boomer equivalent could be the Beastman banner bearer. Plant the banner, summon constant spawns unless the heroes break the banner?
lets not forget that banner boosts the beastmen in range (and its still visable of corse)
vampire cost explosive guy
The Beastmen also have a charger, maybe make so if he colides with someone he can grab and drag them instead of just a quick knock down like its in game rn
@@marlonlucaskimya as far for opinions i have seen they just need to get more then packswarn into this to help cause the enemy to devide more.
a beastman banner is not like a boomer at all. . . .
they aren't even the same mechanic.
You're right about that big plays moment, I remembered the satisfying experience of playing as the Charger, hiding in that one room and charge as soon as the door open killing the player by knocking them out of the window of the l4d2 first level.
Blightstormers would be a good option to slow the heroes down
Wouldn't they be too good? Pop down a storm in a cliff and the enemy team is gone, no teamwork required.
@@marconarvaez9871 not every map has a cliff like that, and the Pactsworn NEEDS to have disablers that open up chances for other Pactsworn to attack. they should remove Healing Draughts (have only healing kits), remove talents, and increase horde and ambient enemy density. it SHOULD feel weighted slightly in favor of the Pactsworn.
@@JondarKorric and now you make the argument why the talents were present in the alpha, both sides are meant to still have fun after all or do people just want to ruin this because they want to be sweaty like what happened to the Left 4 Dead Versus community taking the gamemode way too fucking seriously.
they would be fucking cancer
@@JondarKorric You don't need to remove anything for the U5. Just beef up AI spawns/strengths and give the Pactsworn more choices to choose from, including disablers. The only reason it's so onesided right now is because the player controlled pactsworn are just too weak to make the smaller amount of enemy mobs and weaker bosses be of any real danger to players who have an inkling of an idea of what they're doing.
There is one other thing too, from what the gameplay showed there isn't really melee animations for some of the pactsworn right? like if you are a special infected in L4D2 at least you can swipe at a survivor, but in this it looks like at least, if you miss a pounce you're just dead (using gutter runner as a example). They should have a melee animation at least
Was watching someone else, and I believe there is normal melee for the melee packtsworn, but no animations itself.
@@frostmourne1986 none of them have a regular melee attack.
gutter, as the actual mob, have flash for escape. For the rest yes, they quite d e a d in melee for now.
@@atlaszeik9239 Gutter Runners can also pounce before spawning too which makes it easier for them to get them on rooftops. It's not quite as insane as old Hunter wall jumping but it and the assassin being able to flash for escape and use jumps prior to spawning are both very nice.
This wouldn't be super useful anyway. Enemy melee attacks are super clumsy with long windups, and most players would just block them.
I feel like from your description if they added the ability to play the other Skaven special units it would create those better opportunities to disrupt or kill heroes that get seperated. I feel they have done a good job listening to the community and making adjustments so there is ample room for them to release a solid versus mode.
I think perhaps adding specials from the beastmen would round out the "Infected" cast, something like a player controlled bestigore perhaps
Some suggestions without adding more specials, and avoidinh recycling other comments
1. Give the pack master a posse like the necromancer, maybe using alt fire to give commands and they auto target a grabbed hero if no prior commands.
2. Add coloured marking of the heroes so the pactswarm can each select a target.
3. Give some generic horde control during respawns. Examples include, swapping patrol routes on the map, or getting to place 5 normals/3 upgraded norms/1 elite per life.
4. Allow players to vote on the boss to use, and make them a bit more specialised. E.g. bile troll tries to separate the team with area denial, chaos spawn tries to grab and hold high dps, stormfiend aims for grouped enemies and rat ogre goes for lowest health.
That way there is interesting thoughts going into the AI monsters thinking about pactsworn synergy and hero counters such as a zealot locks down a rat ogre well as he appears low health but is a great choice if all the pactsworn do better as damage dealers over control characters.
Maybe they should add a Skaven Gutterrunner with shuriken type of skirmish unit? Could a hit and run type of gameplay be an improvement?
Does the game tell the Skaven players what the next Ai Boss/special will be, that would help the Players to strategise and make good character picks.
i think alot of those issues would be fixxed if theyd allow elites/specials to be playable that ARENT just the 4 skaven specials
Yeah, being able to sneak up to U5 players as elites/berserkers to do lethal damage while they're getting harassed and distracted by ranged specials would actually make it balanced. Maybe you should be able to "evolve" into a Monster too if you're playing exceptionally well as Pactsworn 😁
@@Mutterschwein smacking a mf thats busy shooting a gunner with a halbert to instantly ko them on cata for example ye
Would be cool if they added some playable storm vermin or something similar so that the rats could have a better frontline. Even though the zombies, clan rats, and slaves slaves are supposed to be the front line, it’s nice to have an intelligent front line capable of defending the back line, similar to the charger example you already made.
right at the end you might have found a good strat, use a globadier to effectively deploy a smoke screen, then use a harder to avoid character like the gunner to oppress the heros while they have trouble seeing you
A player controlled storm sorcerer could be a nightmare. lol
I wanted to be 'that guy' sitting behind the stained glass windows singing jolly fat guy songs and totally safe in drachenfel's castle. I guess fat shark was hip to my game. I've only had to put up with the enemies doing it for like 4 years.
The mental damage I could inflict by constantly dropping storms in confined areas and teleporting away to safety. With a dream of having voice chat that can be heard by the opposing team so I could do my impression of, "Stormy weather, come together!", incessantly. @@kylepope1186
I think by playing around with respawn-timers, they could greatly affect the balancing and add in more classes for the pactsworn. Like giving the team the chance to play a sorcerer every 50 seconds, but only one person at a time. And if you select sorcerer, your respawn until u spawn as the sorcerer increases to, let's say 30 or 40 seconds, because his ability is simply alot stronger than that of others.
I loved the versus mode! And i love the skaven, this sound amazing!
I feel like if you can play the elites too, then you might be able to ignore the lower damage of the special. Calling in hordes would also be very helpful.
Idk about the elite part. Every elite would be waiting around corners prefiring overheads. It would be very tedious to play against.
@ezkiller93 that makes sense, actually. So, instead of playing as an elite, then maybe you can just play as like a rat that has a bunch of like clanrats or skavenslaves around him like the necromancer?
Still not good enough. If I had to suggest something is that we control some sort of "exclusive versus" type of enemy that is capable of doing advanced melee and ranged combat (like parrying, dodging, shooting, etc, pretty much like the heroes)
@@spellgazer754 That could be one way. A necromancer type enemy that summons chaff. Or perhaps, a plague priest atop a mobile screaming bell (something akin to that anyway) that needs to be within a certain radius of the U5, and when he's in it he can start the bell - and if it tolls for the 13th time, it summons a skaven horde.
Mindset is important here. I had the most fun in L4D when I didn't play to win but to make the match the most fun for everyone involved. Sure, trying to win as the zombies was still a factor but whenever I felt like the survivors were too good I just tried to have as much fun as possible and maybe goof around a little. Same went the other way around, just trying to have fun and not necessarily winning. The true win was when everyone had fun. I remember some fond memories when both teams just fucked around and did stupid stuff instead of actually playing the game. I feel like if everyone has that mindset the game is in a healthy state and matches are actually worth the time and energy.
but for as basics are concerned this does lovly. but ya in the long terms the community is about as old as that were you can just after the waves of pvp antics get loved find the odd lobby and chill/vibe because soneone had a dumb idea.
As a l4d2 fan im super excited for this, this is the sort of gamemode which will make this game last YEARS after coming out
Yeah, the similarity between Vermintide and L4D2 was so obvious I am even surprised they copied the versus mode ONLY now...
They should have done that so many years ago... I've no problem with games copying other good games' design ideas (particularly if they are good enough to change the setup and overall design to make it not just a ripoff). It's obvious Vermintide's devs took heavy inspiration on L4D serie. So why didn't they went all the way taking as well the very popular "versus mode" from L4D2 right for release?...
Whatever, it's finally here now. But, damn, it took them so long, lol.
I think being able to play some of the Chaos specials, like the wizards or Chaos Warriors, would be a lot of fun.
so as one of CAT there was instakilling bdw and yes it was hookrat (packmaster). if team could catch 1 offguard everion could swarm that one. and about the dmg gasrat could give like rly big dmg. hookrat could take someone and run with the hero off the cliff on screaming bell and even warpfire on good position could do the same. and you need to think there are specials you didnt see in game and thats a blight stormer, leacher and banner carier
versus in L4D was amazing - hope that will be good too
Spoken like someone who either didn't play L4D Versus or has less than 10 hours experience in it. You do not know how bad L4D Versus was. Survivors were too strong, Infected were bickering in chat constantly because someone didn't spawn at the correct time and angle. FatShark are repeating the same stupid design with this game. Ubersreik is too strong. You will be bored while playing Ubersreik. You will be frustrated while playing Skaven.
@@LaJin9292 Yeah I remember L4D Versus as very toxic on the Infected side. It wasn't fun.
@@LaJin9292sounds like skill issue, l4d versus is literally peak of asymmetric PvP, cry harder
This is great to see. Figuring out the specifics is why it's in testing!
I could see some more specialized rats that are relatively harder to kill, like a storm vermin lieutenant that lets you play as a melee bruiser that is relatively hard to take down so the good guys has to unify their damage rather then just pull their gun up and delete you in one shot (this specialized storm vermin needs to be tough enough to resist blessed bullet and similar single target damage nukes so you have some form of staying power), and when it comes to a horde summoner i could see them use a plague rat with a bell flail that lures his fellow rats to his location once he waves the flail around like a banner.
By the looks of it i think the Skaven playable units are too fragile and need more durable specialists, need a little more warpstone to their damage as well as a means to rile up their brood to engage in enemy concentrated areas. Either way i look forward to see what other unique twists Vermintide Versus has in store for everyone.
I haven't played Vermintide in a while, but did play a lot back then. And l4d as well, so I can't imagine how the skaven team will do well without something like a bloater or a charger. As I recall, the non-human teams would usually only win when they make a big play during a swarm. God bloater plays were the best, especially when you hit all 4 players with bloater goop and you get to watch the chaos from your killcam. Likewise, during vermintide I remember a lot of wipes usually came from getting hit with a warp storm while in the middle of fighting off a swarm.
Lol, I finished watching the video and indeed you covered everything I wanted to say, almost. Don't forget about witches! Vermintide doesn't have witches!
I think it's important to remember that the v2 crew are a lot different then the left for dead crew, the left for dead crew live off there guns, the vermtide crew live off there melee weapons
don't you mean a boomer?
Really nice analysis. Thanks, Zerk!
Love that they're still supporting this game and this update looks like a must play i'll be there when it's out for sure
Fuck yeah, I can't wait for this to be polished
Since we're drawing parallels to L4D, is there a "shout" that packspawn do to alert heroes to their presence? In L4D hearing each distinct special infected shout and melody is very helpful for knowing what to expect. Not having that in vermintide could be a boon.
so, I do think thatwith what you have mentioned.
there are still the Chaos and beastment Specials
Beastmen have like... 1 special (the banner carrier) It might be a good idea to add some more variety there
First off- the Pact-sworn chaos specials include: The blight stormer- who can toss out tornadoes that can isolate and cause a bit of damage. They also have the life leach who can teleport and.... if they manage to grab an enemy- suck all their life away VERY FAST.
THe beastment have again... just the bannersman. However I think adding the missing links here might be a good idea. Right now we have the Beastigor, who only knocks enemies down, and otherwise acts more like a chaos warrior. Maybe by tweaking it, you can make a charger style Beastman who grabs an enemy and pins them to a wall, or does the charger thing of grabbing one guy and dragging them off a cliff or far away
Additionally, you can add a beastman shaman, or Chaos sorcerer style character who can act as a boomer style character. Walking up, spewing a liquid at somone, and causing nearby hoard enemies to become hyper aggressive against one of the characters
Imagine being able to play as bosses too, as of the charger if we could play as elites like some buffed better version of bestigor that can charge through all 4 heroes, also Standard Bearer could be cool too (i would love to play as CW obviously too).
playing the alpha too, in my experience this is focused even more on good teamplay, when you are able to take the right classes on the rat side and in a good balance you can for example split two people of the enemy team of and push them around so a hook can use the confusion and take one even further for example. ora double gas rats to push a group in two seperate directions. like it.
Just interested to see how the gearing and leveling will play out aswell as how maybe difficulties like cata and all may be implemented to densen the hordes and all. But honestly just a great basis to play for fun, just like lfd2 back in the days.
Exactly! This is very early... it takes some time for gamers to learn strats, and being able to execute them together :)
Maybe the rats could have an ability to call in a horde at will. On a cool down of course
Beastmen have the banner dude to call waves. So if they add them that's one option
0:32 ARE WE JUST NOT GONNA TALK ABOUT BARDIN'S DEATH STARE???
This actually looks like it could be pretty fun
It's awesome to see they are working on such a mode. I figured it would be a given, considering how L4D did it and this one is heavily inspired by it. But better late than never!
I hope further down in developement we could be allowed to control the bosses and chaos warriors and "elites" like berserkers and bestigors.
Surprised the nurgle sorcerers aren't playable. Also for a charger unit it would be fun to add a pestigor
i think the best solution would be to allow the players to also play as the chaos chosen/sorcerers and beastmen for the "Charger and boomer." sort of rolls. The sorcerers summon winds of chaos can delay them, dmg over time and fling them backwards. Chaos chosen are heavy hitters with lotta armor, and beastmen have a strong headbutt/charge ability.
i love how this gane just continue to evolve and keeps adding free content
its a start which is what you expect and all of that jazz so expect things like this to be so.
Someone is actually taking the gauntlet L4D laid down all those years ago. I'm so happy.
one change they could make is limit the healing throughout the map, and make and aditional point system based on the remaining health each character has at the end of the map
There is the standard bearer to boost the trash mobs, but they still need to add the chaos enemies in
The idea of this sounds like a lot of fun!
Something that spawns elites would be pretty cool. A plague monk summoner, or stormvermin summoner.
Could be adding having the wargor banner summon a horde if dropped with heroes on the radius.
wish we could control the bosses as well
I think it would be cool to add an invasion option to ordinary matches (that can be toggled on or off before match) that would allow a player to join your current match as a pack sworn and help deter you. Maybe if you complete the match with this feature on, you get xp towards the chest upgrade at the end of the match.
Dear god no, the last thing a coop game needs is a forced PvP mechanic
Man I wanted versus for so long and now its finally coming, maybe it will get me back into the game
Mad lads actually did it... But it looks like they need to spice up the Skaven comapred to the SP/COOP - like giving the Grabber ability to grab and toss the Heroes - for example into a pit of spikes or off-ledges for that constant enviromental danger.
Holy moly they’re finally doing it?!
The packmasters main problem is, that it only ever works during normal co op gameplay during Large waves, when it can sneak amongst the chaos and grab someone, by comparison to say L4D's Smoker equivilient, that grabs people from range, it's at a pretty big disadvantage.
Yes this could be great for Darktide.
I imagine players controlling flamers, Bombers, pox bursters and Mutants or even Crushers doing a co-ordinated attack as a group could be a real menace to the Reject team there. Especially if you do it at the same time as a monstrosity spawns.
It's good to see FS experimenting with this, hopefully it'öö evolve and get a good balance to it.
I will say, not commenting on missing features, cuz it's an alpha, but they should program so the losing team plays the map first. It's kinda bad that the game would end just because one team got to full score rather than giving a chance for all teams to enjoy the experience.
the seams and sounds extremely fun and beyond the criticism in the video which can be tweaked and changed this actually seems like a really good idea and good new game mode
How does the elven ult work? Does she just oneshot the entire skaven team?
One thing I found was kinda dumb is that if you die, you don't respawn, but if you leave after dying and someone replaces you, they will respawn. This weirdly encourages leaving once you die. I had a game where we worked to take someone down, and were doing pretty good in the 3v4, but someone new joined and all our work was just erased.
It will be fixed, this is just an alpha so far.
I thing the scoring should be based on damage taken by the Human team and respectively damage done by the Skaven team. The winner should be the team which took the less damage as Humans and the most damage as Skaven.
For a Close Beta it is actually really well polished.
I'm not mad that it's not exactly optimized as well as the L4d2 Versus but it has a lot of potential.
I am willing to bet that we'll probably get access to the Bosses later down the road.
This game is on giving. Great to see. Hopefully we can one day play as Chaos
Holy crap I remember thinking this should be in the game a looong time ago, let's see this in action!
The pactsworn need talents just like the heroes
what i'm hoping for:
playing as the chaos/beastmen specials (Leech, Blight stormer, standard bearer)
ability to play as elites and berserkers (Plague monks, stormvermin, chaos warriors, maulers, frothers, bestigors, )
ability to play as the bosses
maybe play as the lords but i'm not holding my breath on that at all
The most important balancing aspect is the hero's ability to range one shot. This nullifies skaven melee damage as it is hard to approach and nullifies ranged damage as it's 100 bullets vs 1 bullet. There are other aspects but this is the main difference from this and left for dead. I don't generally like flat number buffs as a balancing method as there isn't skill expression but the balance starting point probably needs to require 2 ranged attacks to kill a skaven special. But I might be weird, I don't like most games that allow a sniper one shot ability.
Left for dead has more times and chances for survivors to split up as well. Vermintide feels like it has bigger maps but l4d2 seems like you can and do split up more. Part of that is the melee vs ranged focus in the two games. Line of site plays a bigger part and the team will naturally group as you melee charge into enemies.
Looks like this will be easy to be a good game once they add more specials but i'd like to see progression between matches instead what currently looks like a short best of three though that may just be beta. Have crappy weapons. let them pick up crafting components throughout the level to have better equipment next go. Gives progression and a reason for them to split up a bit. I'm not generally big on crafting but weapon upgrades are nice while playing and it's less of an issue if it's match upgrades compared to grinding for forever upgrades.
Instead of the pack master I would love to play as a special chaos warrior for some vs melee options.
I'm hyped for a darktide versus, might be a long while before we get that tho, this looks good
Maybe instead of a flat damage buff, specials' damage could increase per second of uninterrupted damage? So their chip damage is still low but those "big play" moments, where you pounce an isolated player or machine gun or bomb a cornered player, do a lot of damage.
Letting us play as a chaos warrior or storm vermin would be nice for having that bit of armored staying power
Feels like those specials could do with a slightly bigger kit. They only have a single attack/ability each, and some of them have really long cooldowns on them. Imo they should at least add a basic melee attack for each one so you have something you can do when you've fired your shot and are about to be turned into rat patê by the Übersreik 5.
its finally happening YES.
to reply to a lot of what was said as complaints in the video to add my 2 sense even though I haven't played it, I think the reason they lack a lot of the more oppressive units is cause those aren't specialist in this game, and it has been in development hell since forever likely figuring out how to make it less one sided and also Darktide being their focus. Stormvermin and Chaos Knights are examples of elites not specials, but would fulfill the role of something that can summon a horde and be more oppressive like they are already in the game as AI, however that's why they are elites and decently tanky, so makes sense with how fast the respawn is, but maybe they could limit how fast they can appear by making it a system like Battlefront 2 where you have to score enough points to earn an elite.
Basically part of the reason it feels like they push so fast and you can't make plays is you're lacking one of the more important units in the design of encounters during the gameplay to make it so players can't just rush through too fast. It is Alpha though so as long as there is feedback hopefully this becomes really good.
Honestly I really hope they add chaos and bestmen to this gamemode, maybe even be able play as bosses
Low dmg but barely any healing in the level would be a pretty decent option as well imo. So that one mistake wont kill you but if the packsworn do make a massive play it then sticks so it doesn't feel so bad.
The rats really need a beefy character to soak up a few more hits or a captain to call in a concentrated swarm, control the ai, and thus, with more rats attacking the players allow their allies to live a bit longer. Even stormvermin would be gpod
I havent played it, but could there be in the future, playable storm caster or leech? I would give a chance to elite enemies too.
Never forget this mode was actually promised as an expansion for Vermintide 1 (!!!) 7 years ago
if I remember correctly, packsworn was both skaven and nurgle chaos, I only see skaven specials as the only playables, I really would have liked to be a chaos warrior or spawn😢
They got a good skelteon of the mod in they missing still a lot but who knows how will it looks in the end. If we lucky we might get a updated version into darktide too.
Holy shit. They did it. THEY DID IT
This alpha looks super promising.
I do hope the offer a proper ammount of support rather than it being a off hand game mode.
Plenty of maps and perhaps the abilty to play as bosses.
Super exciting to see it actually playable.
Really appreciate Fat Shark sticking with it dispite the alpha delay and overall VT2 life time.
I apprecate Fat Shark for their endurance dispite being rather slow at development.
There should be more "specials" to control. Maybe even bosses as well, but the Ai control stuff should also be slightly more dangerous. It'll help with damage.
But it can't be a true pvp mode, left 4 dead vs mode is more like a players and environment vs. players. That's simply how it's balanced in the game, so it should as well in vermintide.
But thier is the problem of lesser specials and bosses, how are they going to balance that if they can be controlled? Including the hordes of armor, image the controlled timing on that!
But more testing is required.
That sounds awesome, but can you play as the Northlanders and other rats like Plauge Rats or Stormvermin?
not currently, but it is an early alpha build.
Zerk, do you know what's happened to Indypride?
italianspartacus had said he suffering from burnout
tbh I never got into vermintide but now with this new mode I will pick it up. I did really love totalwar warhammer and by far the skaven is one of my favorite factions to play as so I we can get to see some more rat options to play as like stormvermin.
this seems set on lower difficulties for the damage done to U5, can you choose the difficulty? If not, we might expect the specials dealing more damage when we can set higher difficulties
the alpha test is locked to Recruit difficulty.
Darktide versus would be the first PVP fps 40k game like... ever. Crazy to think it took so long for any Warhammer version to take this long to have a PvP fps game
I haven't played games in a few years, but damn, I've been waiting for this for so long…
the boomer enemy could just be a nurgling
proobably a somewhat large nurgling but still a nurgling
I got invited into the closed alpha for it and I can't even get in because the code they sent me was already activated......
This is amazing. Going back fs
Me wondering if we might be able to play as the Chaos Warriors of Nurgle?
I think they should give the packmaster a buff that lets them send a small horde of enemies at a certain character.
Are they gonna implement crossplay at some point like in darktide?
Just judging purely off of the shown gameplay and my experience in L4D2, the elite Skaven need more hp to be able to last more that 2 seconds after revealing themselves. In L4D2, even weaker special infected have decent health that unless you are headshotting them (which is really hard to do they all have small heads) they will last for a while before dying to the hail of bullets or jump around and avoiding them altogether. Something like a Charger can 1v1 a survivor close-range even if he misses his charge, as his normal attack is fierce and his health pool is large. When a charger does pin a survivor, he's able to do it for a while due to the health pool, meaning it requires a lot of attention from the other survivors. The ratling gunner should play like a TF2 Heavy, he should be able to soak up some damage before going down, and encourage attacking him either when he is out of position or reloading. If they wanted to add in a smoker-like they could make a Skaven with a harpoon gun, you have to break the chain or kill the gunner.
Overall they should increase the base HP of all played rats, I would almost say double, and increase the spawn delay to compensate to encourage strategic plays and less spam.
Whaaaa when and where can I play this? I love under a rock
Perfectly summed up! Also the exclusion of some specials allows for an easier time for the heroes. I would at the very least like these to be AI controlled.