The UA-cam algorithm got me, and this video popped up in my feed. I’ve been putting together a signed 1933 Goudey set for over 15 years. I’m almost finished writing a book about the set, and my collection, including the stories of three collectors that got the cards signed originally in the 1930’s. One being the famous Uncle Jimmy. I currently have 217 of the 239 cards in the set autographed. There have always been TTM graphers, including Uncle Jimmy. In the early 90’s I paid Mantle to sign cards for me for $50 each. That was a ton of money back in the day, but today, they are worth far more than $50. Mantle signed tons, and there were definitely a lot of folks getting cards signed in the 80’s and 90’s. Are there fake signed cards? No doubt, but us serious collectors do our homework. Provenance is king, and third-party opinions are important. Most of the stuff hitting the market now is from collections where people are simply cashing in. The fake T206 card scandal happened because crooks were looking to make money. They did a reasonably good job, but the community figured it out and identified them. Not all T206 cards are fakes though, many were signed TTM in the 1970’s after the Glory of Their Time was released. Anyway, you make good points, like with anything though, if you’re going to be a collector and invest serious money, you need to do your homework. Due diligence is key. If anyone is interested in seeing some of my collection, you can search signed 1933 Goudey on UA-cam. I’ve done a few podcasts. If you want to see some of my collection, please follow me on Instagram @signed1933goudey Happy Holidays to all!
Thanks for the input, I appreciate the insights!!! But…. What about the question… where were these cards 10+ years ago… certainly not at auction ( in general) It’s just a question. I have no doubt that a vast majority of signed vintage baseball cards are real, but I still question the numbers now being offered as compared to prior years ago
They were sitting in collections. Most of us consider ourselves autograph collectors, not card collectors. Uncle Jimmy got over 225 1933 Goudey cards signed in the 1930's and kept them for 80 years! There are several other similar collections. I know me and three other guys that have over 1000 signed 1933 Goudey cards combined and none of us are moving them any time soon. I'm in my mid-40's and am the youngest age wise by far. Many of the other collectors are older, retired, moving into their 70's and 80's and are seeing the prices realized over the last few years and are starting to sell off some of their cards they have acquired. @@Bluejacket66
This is why I never collected autographs aside from ones that I witnessed myself. Authenticating autos is subjective and I didn’t want to get stuck with a fake auto. I completely agree with you that given enough time and practice almost anyone can forge and autograph. If there’s anything we’ve learned in the hobby is that if there is a chance to cheat people out of their hard earned money, someone will do it.
Head scratcher for me too. I remember seeing mantle signing at shows in the early 90s and they were hundreds of people in line. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone with a card in their hands. It was all baseballs and photos, and every once in a while a bat.
All good points Dave. As someone who has an emphasis on autographs and has recently gone back to loving cards, I can say there are plenty (more then plenty) of forgeries out there. I will, however, say that it's not that easy to fool the experts (especially with Mantle autos). There are plenty of people that don't work for the TPA's that can not only can tell you the Mantle is bad, but the forger (if known) who did it. They all have their tells. I used to be very paranoid about Mantle unless I got it in person, but learned from other people some of the tells of the forgers as well as of Mantle himself. Having been to several shows that Mantle signed at, I will say I did see a variety of cards being signed (a lesser number by far than balls, photos etc), but I can't really remember any of his earliest cards being signed (more like mid to late 60's cards...something that could be picked up at the show for not too much money back in the day. As for the T206's etc, I can see a few more signed by players that lived in to the 1960's and 70's, but to find Tinkers, Evers and Chance etc is pretty ludicrous to me. The funny thing is, the t206 rule does not seem to apply to other "common" cards that were easy to send in the mail to players that were on the popular player mailing lists. Early 50's bowmans were quite popular, and probably easy to get and not worth much, so it makes sense that people would send them. Here's my rules for autographs: 1. If you get it in person, you don't need a 3rd party to tell you it's real? 2. If you think it looks off, but the TPA's like it, do you really want it in your collection? 3. If you really like it but the TPA's don't, do some additional homework (there are plenty of experts out there on net54 for example). 4. Bottom line is, you work too hard for your money...don't just throw it away. By the way, now that I'm getting more in to cards, I'm finding there are almost as many fake, trimmed, and doctored cards in the marketplace as forged autos...I guess it's just the times we live in. Have a great Christmas Dave, as always your videos are awesome.
Dave I 100% agree on the Perez Steele postcards so beautiful with the auto. I wish i had that Mantle you showed. I was able to get the Duke Snider great moments from the basement collection 🤘
Like me, a lot of collectors who came back in the hobby over the pandemic were kids back when a lot of the HOFers would sign at local shows and through the mail. I had a bunch of these in my PC that I got graded by PSA over the last several years as the hobby boomed. I think this is what’s happening; older collectors who now are selling their signed cards for a premium today, and/or trading up for other cards. A lot fewer signed mantle cards than signed balls; there must be a million Mantle signed balls out there from all his show signings.
Great video my friend, thank you for sharing this and please continue the awesome work. Also I hope you and the family had an amazing holiday season. Peace and Blessings always
I’m not a big auto collector either but I went to school with guys that could look at a picture and draw it perfectly. Just from natural artistic ability. I would think those guys could copy an autograph perfectly too 🤷♂️
Man you are a “Purist”. That is a Great Thing! Man, after watching this video I was thinking “Man there is way Way WAY too many ultramodern autograph rookie cards!”.
Well the companies make them so you will buy their product. Or they will make them in a dozen different colors… or stamp meaningless numbers on them so you will think they are special… they are not
Great video topic Dave. I’ve wondered this as well. Most people that “destroyed” their rookie cards with an auto back in the 1980’s and 1990’s must have hid their cards in shame. Cashing in now! My local shop in the late 1980s had dozens and dozens of signed cards. All types of players, not just local Brewers. Price was usually $5-$10 plus the card value. Only problem was even my young brain could notice all the autos were in the same handwriting! Happy holidays to you Dave!
My neighbor worked as an usher at Forbes Field in the late 50s and early 60s and acquired a lot of autographs of the top stars of the NL and of course the Pirates. He just kept his collection private. He also later worked for the Albuquerque Dukes minor league team so he got a lot of cards signed by old MLBers (who were coaches/visiting) in the 70s and 80s. Amazing collection-and yes nearly all of them are signed with ball point pen and he wasn’t thinking about “mint” condition when he was acquiring these from the late 50s-mid 80s
@@Bluejacket66 Ha-not sure either. It was cool to see his collection though (not my thing personally either), but I was more intrigued by some of the more forgotten players that he had.
Celebrities have been signing the carte de visite photograph and the postcard since the Victorian era. The sportscard is a natural medium for the autograph. Only some had the foresight to get nice examples signed in the 80's/90's, and now those individuals are cashing in. This is the primary reason for the explosion of examples on the market.
I am not seeing a massive issue with TPAs certifying fake vintage autos outside of the example you cited. Sure there are some, but some of us were quietly stacking mantle mays and Koufax vintage autos for 20 years because we were getting them for basically nothing.
Back in the day, it was heresy to have a card autographed. It decreased the value. This gives more credence to these vintage autographed cards being fake.
Really appreciated you speaking your mind. Your insight has been valuable to me in my collecting since I started to watch your channel. I try to stay away from HOF or really famous player autos unless I get them in-person. If it’s a lesser known player that I like, I will take the chance if it’s not real expensive.
I totally agree. I think 90% of all vintage autographed cards are forgeries. There are just too many of them that have shown up over the past 5 years. I also agree that autographed cards ruin the card. I would much rather have an 8x10 photo autographed.
I completely agree - back in the day (the 80s) it was thought that autographs on cards decreased the cards value. People had balls, postcards and photos autographed - almost never cards. Mantle died in 1995 - seems like more and more are available.
Two things I didn't hear you mention, but could also explain part of the explosion of vintage autos. First, a lot of collectors that would never sell their PC are dying. Their kids don't have the same attachment and sell their cards. Second, the pandemic gave people a lot of free time and brought a lot of collectors back to the hobby (including me). That said, I acknowledge there are probably tons of fakes as well.
Sure but my point is, in general, back in the day when many of these on card autos would have been signed… people didn’t want in card autos. Now, here they are coming out of the woodwork . My explanation is comparing 2012 to 2023
@@Bluejacket66 I'm not certain most people wouldn't have wanted on card autos. When I was a kid, I would have much rather had Pete Rose autograph his baseball card than a note card. I understand you are comparing 2012 to 2023 and both points I made help explain some of the reason for the explosion of available autos. Your explanations are also very valid. My point is, it's probably a variety of factors that have led to the proliferation of on-card autos.
I agree with you dave. I never liked autographed baseball cards. To me, there's nothing like a autograph baseball. It looks so much better on a ball to me.
Great insight, Dave. I am big into art and am always learning about the fakes in that world. You cannot be a scrub and get away with it. Like you said though, given practice, I bet many of us could get the practice down on signatures given the right ink & pen.
Those Memory Lane Mantles came from Matt who gathered them over years. He rolled those up in a signed 1952 Topps Mantle. Did ample research prior to each purchase. As many of the folks on here, remember, getting cards signed was considered the same as drawing on them (as you said “defaced”). When I collected in the 1980s & early 1990s, nearly NOBODY (& I mean NOBODY) ever got their cards signed at shows. I do remember some kids getting cards signed outside stadiums only because they didn’t have the money to buy photos or balls. If they were lucky, they had the yearbook or team issued cards to get signed . I also recall people emailing former ballplayers cards in the mail because they were flat and cheap to get signed (cost of stamps). So the countless pre-1970s signed cards surfacing are either from the extremely small % of kids who couldn’t afford photos / balls , TTMers, or forgeries.
As much as I highly respect MattyC, he does sometimes SEEM to pump his cards ( his CENTERED cards, and a mantle autos). He has not owned those signed mantles very long….as best I can tell. I probably confusing his doing “ show and tell” with pumping and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. I would much rather have his PSA 5 52 Mantle than a signed one
@Bluejacket66 MattyC, I have seen some of his videos. Probably when I drooled over the thought of a signed 1951 Bowman. You make a good point about rather having an unsigned 1952 PSA 5. Last night a 1956 Aaron PSA 4 with Auto 8 sold. I bid, but got to a point when I asked myself if I would rather buy a PSA 8, and stopped bidding. The thing is, there are many more PSA 8s than signed 56s. Did I make a mistake not bidding higher?
I remember when I was young and collecting where it was “wrong” to have cards autographed. It took away from the value of the card, especially rookie cards. Now it seems like that is the “new” thing. My opinion is I feel the same way about autographs (Balls, Photos, Perez Steel). Also, I believe there is a ton of fake autographs out there. Thanks again for sharing Dave.
Dave, you make some great points! I’m not expert in this field to give my opinion. I do think it’s scary to pay big money for an auto and not know the truth. Maybe the autograph collectors out there, would prefer this topic not be discussed, because they don’t want some of there cards being seen as forgeries. Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Common sense tells you something is fishy about all these autos appearing the last couple of years. I don’t remembering myself or anyone having players sign baseball cards. That was a no no
You have the same mindset as my Dad. When I was little and wanted to get baseball cards signed he would always tell me it's a bad idea and that I should get a baseball signed instead or photos. Still my Dad let me collect how I wanted to and I did get many cards signed, but you're right in that getting cards signed was generally a no-no among the majority. I think there is a multitude of factors of why your seeing more vintage cards signed popping up. People did collect that way even though it wasn't the norm, a great deal of these people might have been autograph collectors first and card collectors second. We have to remember that autograph collecting and the autograph world is bigger than the sports card world. One of my favorite collecting niches has been adding obscure Phillies autographs into the collection and generally I've found a bunch of cards from the 50s and 60s signed. Then of course you have the whole world of TTM autographs and player's post retirement. Guys like Stan Musial probably signed hundreds of thousands of autographs. With all things as you mention Dave, there are fakes out there and there are even fake autographs in PSA holders, just like there are trimmed and doctored high grade vintage cards in PSA holders. As with all things, the buyer must do their due diligence. Fun discussion.
@@Bluejacket66 I tend to believe more people collect autographs than cards, autographs are more broader in scale and people all across the globe collect them, whereas cards are more centralized here. I will say cards of course are more valuable, so if we are looking at this from a money standpoint, of course cards dominate autographs. Not questioning that. I'm more talking about scope of people who collect when I said the autograph world is bigger, compared to cards. Just my opinion.
My dad had some fanmail from players he wrote to when he was a kid one of the old yankees signed his card and wrote a letter saying "its a shane lou or babe arent around to sign these, they never even signed tobbacci cards when they were alive" so he was always extremely skeptical but he did get marquard on a t206 we still both own together (: he went in person and the auto is much shakier then ithers ive seen on the market. We dont share scans of it we dont wish to aid forgers
This is what I love about the hobby. I love autographed cards and have no interest in autographed balls or index cards. There are so many ways to collect!
I think another cool medium is Hall of Fame postcards. I used to have about 100 different autos but sold them. Autos don’t do much for me but I appreciate the attraction
@JunkWaxHero , just posted up a video on three Perez Steele postcards. Dave, I think with the lastest boom of collecting and the attraction of $$ for vintage cards; the Mantles stuffed in closets from years past, are surfacing. Good video.
I’ve been an on card autograph collector for 40 years , never did I think about it defacing a card and never did I get them because they would be worth $$ someday , I just loved having an image signed by the player , but obviously it’s a big business now
Dave, I thought I posted on this one. I really enjoyed your perspective. To me slabbing autographed baseball cards seems like a recent concept. While PSA slabbed autographed cards prior, they didn't begin dual service until Dec. 2015 (grade on card and auto). Then in April 2019 SGC stopped grading non-factory issued autographed cards, so PSA became the only game in town. As time passes, I think we'll see more and more autographed cards in slabs. I also think there are a lot of fakes out there, just like a lot of fake or trimmed cards in slabs. Hope you have a great 2024, and I'd like to connect at the National.
I love autographed baseball cards. however, growing up they were extremely rare, and people rarely purchased them because there was no way of authenticating them. I personally don't usually buy autographed cards unless they are done in conjunction of the printing company
Dave - I agree with you. On card autos were always shunned. Now that they're popular, where did all of the vintage ones come from?? I'm sure some people asked these guys to sign cards back in the day, but it wasn't common. I'm especially surprised to see the pre war signatures on cards. A lot of those guys died before card shows were a thing (they were never paid to sit at a table and sign autographs). I'm hesitant to buy them, even when they are pretty cool looking. My take, if the player died before 1985, they probably have very few, if any, signed cards. Great video! Thanks for sharing!
I do think a fair bit of it is now that they are popular, more are being brought to the market to be sold. However, that same popularity also brings more forgeries too- forgers only forge thinks that are desirable and can make them money- that's the whole point for them. I'm sure there are many (especially on the pre-war type stuff) that are forged. There are definitely less vintage cards signed than other items for most players though, due to the exact taboo you are talking about. I remember this even more recently still being a taboo. It's probably become more popular in the last 5-7 years. Interesting topic Dave, thanks for sharing!
Long time watcher, my first comment, Having been burned by a few forgeries with early purchases, including a Mantle, I targeted certified Bank Checks. Much easier to research the correct bank, check numbers and dates, types of pen (eg Ty Cobb signing with green pen), more difficult to forge a check with all that data and cancelled stamp and the full legal signature. Also like knowing that this was in the player’s possession, they filled out the entire check with payee, amounts, dates along with their signature. Having a G.H. Ruth and a John H. Wagner, Ty Cobb and Walter Johnson check displayed matted and framed along with a photo and a plaque with career stats, IMHO, is a great way to celebrate the player and show off a piece of history, Bonus if you find a check made out to cash, you get a second auto on the back! Love your videos, because of you I started collecting food and beverage cards, including some nice Ty Cobb ice cream cards. Thank you!
Great to hear from you. I agree that checks are likely the best way to guarantee and authentic sig. sometimes it’s interesting seeing what they were purchasing or who they were paying
Yep, the only explanation is that these autos were in collections, granddad died, kids were selling them. Now dad passed on and for the third time since the 70’s, the cards come back up for sale, except now the cards. are being slabbed. I was always against the RC being autographed as well. That was a big thing that started being a controversial issue in the early 80’s , dont get those Rookies signed.
I always chuckle when I look through bins of cheap raw vintage cards and see several of them signed. Seen thousands like that over the years. Probably real but who knows.
If there's one thing for certain, there's always someone out there trying to take advantage of others. Also, you may trust your buddy but they can be duped, too.
I’ve been collecting for nearly 40 years and agree with the influx of on card autos seems astounding. However having said that I always thought on card auto were super cool. To me it was a combination of two different ways to collect. You could always get another card of a player but the thought of having one that they actually held and signed made it that much more collectible to me. I agree that a single signed baseball is the most beautiful way to display an autograph but after you own a number of them storage and display become an issue so cards would be my next choice. I do know that I was in the minority though. When I did shows or TTM and got cards signed I was told repeatedly that was a bad choice because I killed the value of the card but 1. It was what liked so didn’t care and 2. cards that I had signed weren’t that expensive to get a second one. I know that a number of TTM collectors would send cards to players that had high percentage of returns but guys like Mantle don’t fit into that category. The part that I think you’re onto something is the high value cards like 54 Aaron or 51B Mays or Mantle or even any 52 Topps high number card. As a Pee Wee Reese collector it was no big deal to get an autograph of his say 55 Bowman but I never saw anyone get his 52 Topps high number signed. Newer collectors don’t realize how many autographs were forged especially in the 90’s Operation Bullpen era. There are so many of those still floating out there but people put their trust in a TPA and never think twice. I think forgeries are probably on the rise again because like you said the potential financial windfall to getting an autograph passible is worth the squeeze for sure. Great video as always Dave and I appreciate your thoughts.
Agree 100%...never got into the Autograph game...My collecting doesn't go back as far as yours..I started in 81 but went through the mid 80s with all the Jordan fakes so since then just have always stayed clear. Good stuff Dave. Merry Christmas and have a Happy and Safe New Year!
I enjoy collecting on-card autos on vintage cards. The main reason why I like them is because of the physical connection to the player touching, looking at and signing the card. I'm quite particular as to what I buy because I am certain that many out there are fakes, even the ones "authenticated" by third-party graders.
Probably 20-25 years ago I bought a Mantle/Williams/DiMaggio triple signed baseball on eBay at auction. The seller said there was a find of 6 or so of these but they were not professionally authenticated. Guessing I paid $400-$500. Everything looked great and I enjoyed having the ball for a few years. I considered sending it to PSA, but didn't want to spend another $400-$500 with the possibility it was a forgery, so I sold it. Looking back, I wish I jkept it. As for signed cards, I agree that signatures usually look nicer on other media, however many collectors just like cards, and there are alternative storage considerations for other items. I don’t consider myself and autograph collector, but have some on 1956 Topps baseball. I am generally more interested in the condition of the card and if the autograph presents well. I agree, the signed Mantle card you showed in your video is unappealing. A signed 1951 Bowman however may make me drool! When it comes to signed cards, they can become appealing due to scarcity. I suspect your first thought about more coming to market following comparable sales is accurate, as cards which are first or early to market generally sell for more. As a 1956 Topps baseball collector, I have a bunch of autos I picked up long ago as a companion to the set. My favorite is a signed Hoyt Wilhelm, which happens to be the highest graded by PSA. However, I am not a set regiistry guy. Someday I would love to purchase a signed 1956 Mantle, though I may need to mortgage the farm! It would be interesting to graph PSA/DNA graded Mantle cards over time. Yes, professional graders are the best we have, though are not perfect. Neither are the courts and our judicial system. Thanks for another great video! Merry Christmas and Happy and healthy 2024! 🎉
I believe there are quite a lot of signed Mantle cards out there. While it’s true that many people said a signature devalued the card, there were people who didn’t care about value and got cards signed. I personally sent a 1933 Goudey to get signed by Carl Hubbell in 1983 and had I been able to attend one of those Mantle signings, no doubt I would have gotten him to sign a card. You also have to realize that many of the people getting Mantle at those shows were people who idolized him when he played and probably thought it was cool to get a card signed. last I’ll just give you two names to research. First is Jeff Morey, someone who actually sent tobacco cards through the mail to get signed but secondly and most importantly was a man named Conrad Anderson. Conrad sent out MASSIVE TTM requests going back to at least the 50’s and maybe earlier. He did that until the 80’s and was considered the first national sports autograph dealer. When I say massive, I mean massive! Easily six figures. I actually have an index card signed by Paddy Livingston that is personalized to Conrad Anderson. At one point there was a pic circulating of a letter or index card telling Me Anderson to stop sending for his autograph as he had signed enough for him. Who was that player? Ty Cobb! There’s actually a pretty fair chance that when you see signed index cards of Jimmie Foxx, Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb, any of those older guys that were still alive in the 59’s and 60’s, there’s a good chance it originated from him. Many of the tougher 50’s and 60’s Topps autographed cards are believed to originate from Mr Anderson’s TTM efforts.
@@Bluejacket66 I think a lot of it has to do with how much prices have increased. It’s crazy how much prices have increased in the last 15 years. It wasn’t that long ago go you could get a signed Mantle Topps card for under $500 pretty easily. I remember seeing ads in SCD for Mantle autographs being sold by show promoters for $5 if you sent your item in. I thought that was high 🤣
Very interesting Dave. I don't buy vintage autographs on cards because of the forgery issue, plus I feel autographs on cards tend to detract from the card's beauty. Like you I would prefer baseballs, photo's or index cards if I collected autographs. I do have some cards that were produced with autographs and they tend to look nice, so I'm good with them.
I started collecting in the mid 1980s. I remember at that time, if you got a card autographed, it would destroy the value of the card but you had the value of the autograph. I had picked up for five dollars each a 1976 Topps, Gary Carter, a 1977 Topps Brooks Robinson and a 1970 Topps Harmon Killebrew Autographed cards. I recently sent them to PSA DNA, and they all came back authentic. What I’ve started to do is buy mid grade vintage cards and send them to be autographed. Some HOF rookie cards in high grade are out of my price range, but one in good condition with an authentic autograph looks almost as good in my collection.
Also, as a kid in the 70s and 80s, I had several autographed cards of Mays, Aaron and Koufax. No clue if they were real but I did like the auto on the cards.
Agree with you completely, I never saw autographed vintage cards at shows in the past. I had the players sign Perez Steele or photos, rarely on cards. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Hello Dave! Opened first pack in 1985, but I have to say authenticated autographs on vintage cards can be very cool, as long as they feel like they could be native to the original design. I think the common use of facsimile autos in vintage designs set the template that gives a kind of design permission for live autos. I don’t care for autographs on card fronts that already have a facsimile auto, but when they don’t have one - I love when the player himself adds it. That said - you’re asking great questions! I think the answer is most likely a combo of the two phenomena you raised: popularity of on card autos has exploded so people who had them are cashing in - and so are counterfeiters. Great data - great questions! Merry Christmas, happy new year!
Was thinking more about 1960s autographed Mantle cards after my previous comment If there’s one highly popular HOFer who could have signed more than expected cards, it’s probably Mantle. I think he lived just long enough to sign cards after the “auto insert” started in 1990 w/ Upper Deck & then Score (who had him under contract before Score Board). Same for Joe D, Ted Williams, etc… It does make sense we see a lot more of his later cards signed than earlier ones. More folks probably had duplicates of later cards due to how many survived “moms throwing them out” in combination with higher production numbers. This still doesn’t speak to the influx of signed 1951 to 1969 Mantle cards at auction compared to even 9 years ago. I fear many of them might be forgeries. We’ll never know. I did look at the PSA registry of signed Mantle cards. Partial PSA Pop grade (take w/ a grain of salt). Didn’t look at BVG 1951 bowman = 29 1952 Topps = 19 1952 bowman = 23 1953 Topps = 57 (seems high) 1953 bowman = 45 (seems high) 1954 bowman = 41 1956 = 45 total (5 white) 1960 = 59 1965 = 51 1966 = 90 1967 = 39 1968 = 73 1969 = 120ish (white & yellow)
Another "long time collector/dealer" observation I've heard 1000 times is "where were all these super high grade cards 30 or 40 years ago?" One thing I can say for sure is that I have seen only 3 or 4 slabbed Mariano Rivera autos that were fake (1 SGC and 2 or 3 PSA). And I've seen 10s of thousands of them.
Yep - it's questionable for sure. I was collecting all through the late 80's, early 90's... and it was virtually a completely taboo thing to get any pack released card(s) signed. It was viewed by a large majority as "ruining" the card. Eventually, it absolutely can release the point that the 'bad' will push out the good signatures if the forgers are good enough. Can reach a point that the good ones end up being viewed as questionable, which would be very bad for the hobby.
I've always been a little skeptical of vintage autographed cards as well (particularly pre-war). Interesting to see how many more of them come to auction now vs 10 years ago. I'm sure that the recent popularity certainly plays a part but the skeptic in me thinks there are other things at play as well. Great video Dave and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
I am with you I think autographed baseball cards have very little if any eye appeal. I think the main reason for these cards coming to the market has a large part to do with the age of the people who have owned them. They are probably passing away or have passed and left these cards to their children and during the pandemic,the card prices went thru the roof and they are being sold by these inheritance kids . In fact my collection was giving to my eldest son and he sold a bunch to purchase his house with them so this could play a big roll in this flood of auto vintage cards.
As someone who has followed auctions since 1990, These were never a thing and I never saw vintage autos on cards. Like you, I was not at every show or saw all that Mantle et all signed but they were not at shows I was at and not in the major auctions... at all.
Autos can be tricky for sure, even pack issued autos can be forgery’s. There is a specific style of Bonds pack issued auto that someone associated with Bonds claims where ghost singed on his behalf so who knows. I’m always suspicious of anything signed in bold sharpie that is claimed to be signed before 1990.
Sir, I am wandering over from the Midlife sports card community. I haven't been back to collecting but about a year. It's blatantly obvious the general level of corruption is overwhelming to me. It's very sad knowing this generation of collectors will be so dejected and suffer. Happy to join your channel and learn.
Hello . If you watch midlife Please look thru my extensive UA-cam catalog which goes back 7-8 years. I believe you will find the knowledge here, rather than musings and opinions. Cheers. Always DM or contact me with any questions regarding vintage and prewar cards. I specialize in regional and food issues, mantle, Mathewson, Ruth, Cobb
@Bluejacket66 I'm a low budget set builder doing low hanging fruit to fund my hobby. I would have lost my mind having a shot at all those unfinished less desirable sets lol.
How has the total number of items at the auction houses listed changed in the same time period? I haven’t used any so honestly don’t know. I’m wondering if the hobby as a whole and auction houses have grown since then and as a percentage autographed vintage card numbers may be closer.
No change. Thousands of items offered. In general i don’t see a difference in the number of offerings at each auction. There are more auction houses for sure
I think it depends on the player and the timeframe that the autograph was obtained. It would have been odd for someone to have Mantle sign a playing days card in the 1980s, but not so odd in the 1950s or 1960s. In the 1950s and 60s kids were pinning their cards to their walls and putting them in their bike spokes. So why wouldn't people also have players write their names on them? I like a good vintage ballpoint pen autograph on a card. Also, who is going to fake a signature on a 1956 Topps Enos Slaughter card?
I started collecting in ‘86 and I remember that getting a card autographed was a no-no even then. I guess it would make sense now that signed cards are en vogue, they are coming out of collections to the marketplace. But I’m sure there’s plenty of counterfeits even in those cards. I agree the medium for the auto is important - the aesthetics of the auto and where it is on that medium is important to me. Great video and thought provoking! 🎉
Great research on auction activity for autograph cards. Puts things into perspective somewhat. I, personally, think you are right on two points - interest in autos is peaking but there are also a lot of forgeries. I am not an auto collector for that latter reason. I own a few but those where I could see the "whites" of the signer's eyes in front of me. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family, Dave!
We need more data points to make any significant conclusions. (between 2012 and 2023)I agree the 2012 and 2023 data supports the idea that there are possibly more fakes on the market.
Dave, In the early years I always got autographs on baseballs, but when I met Roy white in 1986 He was gracious enough to sign half a dozen of his Topps cards for me and it started me collecting as many of his cards autographed as I could get, however his cards weren’t worth much and I’m sure I had a dozen of each so it didn’t matter if one was defaced! In the circles that I hung out in many of my friends got cards autographed. Merry Christmas Dave to you and your family!!
I think you did a really good job on this video and I think you made some great points. Hopefully people stop and think a bit more after watching this.
Agree 1000% Dave. I've been waiting for someone to say this. When I see autographed cards that are graded, I wonder how PSA/SGC/etc even knows that they are real. They are guessing. I feel like everyone just takes it as gospel, but no idea why.
There was a guy who famously faked mlb autos. He was caught because he was faking Mark McGwire sigs and everyone kind of knew that McGwire didn’t sign that much. Anyways the same guy faked thousands of Mantle sigs.
Great conversation Dave! I met a guy at the National who could sign Mantle’s autograph better than Mantle did! When we were kids it was considered defacing a card to have it written on even if it was an autograph. Mantle signed a ton of stuff and I’m sure some people had cards autographed especially towards the end. The ones that make me scratch my head are the guys that were dead for many years like Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx etc, you would think autographed cards from guys like that should be very rare. Just my opinion of course! 🤷🏻♂️ Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Great video Dave! I believe it's a combination of money bringing these cards to market, followed by counterfeiters. In 1983, the first Roger Maris golf tourney, there were now shows in Fargo, and we had just started a collecting club. Most of us got vintage cards signed by Maris, Mantle, Ford, etc. I got a 1962 Maris/Cepeda signed, and a couple banquet programs, and these were all free on the golf course or at the banquet, got Moose Skowron on a 1967 Topps card, Richardson on a 1963 Fleer. One of my buddies got a 1960 Mantle signed, another got a complete run of Maris cards signed. Back then, our discussion was on value. Autograph cards had a smaller base of people to sell to. I was never really around people that said it wasn't right to get a card signed, it more or less preference. I hear it a lot on UA-cam, that collectors said it was a bad deal to get cards signed. Not sure what it was like in the 1950's and before or how long TTMer's were around. I remember TTMer's in the 1980's.
Dave we think very similar on autographs. I recently did a video expressing my thoughts on autos. I am a 1990-1993 pack pulled auto guy and I am very picky on my vintage autos. I think they have become a dime a dozen and like you said they dont all look good. Always fun to express our opinions right or wrong it gets are brains thinking. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 🤙🤙
Thanks Dylan, to each their own. If we all collected the same thing there wouldn’t be enough to go around. I just wonder why NOW all these very old auto cards are surfacing
In general I’m highly skeptical of most autographs. Main reason I don’t collect autographed cards. I always feel like I’m just buying a beat up card that someone faked an auto on. Not for me.
30 years ago everyone wanted autographed baseballs, bats, and photos in plaques....can't give that stuff away today, because A) takes up too much space (trend of downsizing among younger generations that want to remain untethered), B) these items can't be encapsulated and preserved in same way that cards can be by TPGs, and in turn easily shipped/transfered/monetized, C) Operation Bullpen took oxygen out of room from autograph hype from 30 years ago, D) hobby influence machine is zeroed in on autographed vintage cards as "scarcer" and in turn more valuable items to have for collectors writ large E) explosion of autographed insert cards in last 25 years has shifted mindset that cards are good medium for autographs
100 % agree with you Dave , I'm skeptical even on all TTM's autos ! How many were signed by family members ? If i don't get a autograph in person therea no guarantee. Happy Holidays To You & your family Dave !!!
Aloha Dave ! I have heard people get an auto "in person" at a Show, send it out to get authenticated, and it comes back questionable. What are you supposed to do ? Take a photo with the signer and ask him to smile with your face in the photo ? Ha ! My Dad has 100's of autographs of baseball players from the 1950's that he got at the games. The cool thing about that is they were in uniform, not behind a foldout table signing with a fat blue Sharpie as opposed to a "classic" blue ball point pen. When my Dad got his autographs, the players were having the time of their lives playing the game they love, they were not old and disgruntled at a card Show charging kids money. Happy New Year ! C ya
@Bluejacket66 My Dads Mom threw away all his cards when he moved out. My Dads Collection consists of 200+ Souvenir Programs from the 50's, a dozen pennants and an autograph book with nearly 400 autos in it. My collection is topps cards 1970 to 78. Don't buy sell or grade. Content with our little collection. In the next couple of days I will put out a episode and tell who the autographs are on my Dads 1958 Orioles Score Card. Doby, Maris, and Minnoso are the big names. Happy New Year !
I dont like how they make exceptions on autos not defacing the card, yet any other 'pen' marks reduce grade....ive never liked altering the card or comic, etc... Merry Christmas
I saw a news documentary 10-20 yrs ago exposing a guy that had mastered Mickey Mantle’s signature. They had sold hundreds (thousands?) of Mantle items. Not certain how you could ever tell the difference? Even experts have been deceived. Re autos on cards, I dislike it on vintage but sometimes the newer nonvintage cards like TCMA or Pacific Trading autographed are cool because the card itself is not valuable and is a good vehicle for a nice auto.
I have collected off and on since the 80s. I am not an autograph card guy myself and it was not until the end of the 90s and into this century that people really started having players autograph cards. I myself remember hearing a.story during that time frame of a player (may have been Jordan) refuse to sign his rookie card because he viewed it as defacing the card.
In the 1988-1990 years the biggie signers did many shows here in the Chicagoland area..Mantle did his only show here in 1989 during the 1969 Chicago Cubs 20th Reunion show at McCormick Place...I got a lot of stuff autographed by him..Also making the rounds here...Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Sandy Koufax..P S...Everyone knew back in the early 90's when Mantle was really sick his sons had him sign everything but the kitchen sink to sell after his death..
Good points. I had started back in the mid 80s getting autographed cards n did for about 15 years n I remember articles if card's should be autographed or not n the opinion was not to. Now it's the rage. I also remember going to shows with my late dad in the early eighties n getting Jackie Jensen on a 8x12 but don't remember dealers selling autographs on cards.
Collector's got so used to hits in modern boxes. I'm old school I could care less about autographs. It's just another way to collect. I remember when you wanted an autograph you bought a ball signed.
@@Bluejacket66 In my current collection of ultra modern I have probably 600 autographs of yoan moncada he's been my main PC player since 2019. A couple on balls a few jerseys. A couple dozen IPA's & the rest leaf, topps, & panini certified autographs.
I don’t collect vintage autographs. Never have. The reason is that I simply do not believe that the authenticators can, with sufficient accuracy, discern the fake from the real autographs. With the amount of money some of these are selling for, there is huge incentive for fraudsters to take the time to produce “good” fakes. Likewise, I think the TPGs are terrible at identifying trimmed cards. Different discussion for a different time, but that fact has very substantially affected the way that I collect, and which items I choose to buy. When it comes to autographs, I just think there are too many fakes out there for my comfort level… I thought about buying a Babe Ruth signed check, thinking that it would be a much more difficult item to fake, but still have never been able to pull the trigger. Just my opinion…
Andrew I believe are thinking is alike!! As for Ruth auto… I would love to own one but I’d always wonder. But then again, if a tpg says it’s good… it’s good to the world
I'm glad you brought it up, because when I did I was just labeled as a newbie that doesn't know anything 😂 Operation Bullpen was actually a real thing folks. But hey what do I know
Sports card forgeries have been going on for 50+ years. Like most “indiscretions” in the hobby- they rarely are punished. I’m not saying these cards are forgeries… I just question the quantity of high end autos ON CARDS, that have literally flooded the hobby
I started collecting cards in 1980 and some auto TTM. I sent 3x5 index cards or odd ball baseball cards that would increase the value of the card. Overall rule was never send anything you didn't mind loosing in the mail. High end cards was a big no no. I can see caution with a lot of expensive signed cards coming out of the wood works.
Think it’s a really interesting topic. I’ve only been collecting vintage for 11 years and when I first got into it many dealers and shop owners were still pushing the notion of autos devaluing vintage cards. My opinion would be that cards have always been the most accessible medium for in person autographs especially for kids. And when Mantle started popularizing the signings at the card show circuit back in the 80s that’s when more vintage cards started getting signed. While it wasn’t the majority of fans and collectors at first, that number has grown overtime as it has become less and less taboo. So for guys who lived to atleast the 90s I don’t fear authentication when it’s got the proper provenance and certification. But guys who played and died before the 80s signing on cards I agree we should all tread more lightly (not that I could afford most of those anyway haha)
I'm only 6 minutes in but have to address something you mentioned regarding the 80+ signed vintage cards with Heritage. There was a large, original owner collection of signed cards consigned recently from Florida I believe. There has been some sharing of these cards on Instagram and other mediums. I recall specifically a 49 Bowman Jackie Robinson and a 49 Bowman Campanella pre accident. I'll keep watching but wanted to chime in now with that info.
A lot coming to market over the last several years. Just seems odd. I think many finds are legit. It seems ….unlikely… that grown men were bringing baseball cards to the ballpark to be signed ( Ruth, Gehrig, foxx etc). Idk
It’s a great question Dave!! Do you think some hardcore collectors have seen what autographed cards are going for and decided to sell?? Makes me wonder too!🤔🤔. I hope more fakes haven’t entered the market!😮
I am an everything collector mostly vintage pre war post war graded cards and sets but also collecting autograph items- balls, cards , programs checks even game used bats as I love it all . Over the last 20 plus years I have been putting a 1958 Topps baseball autographed set together which at this point is up to 462 different autographed cards including all stars except Clemente which I have only seen one over the years pricey then much too pricey now. I obtained many at the National with trusted autograph dealers. This set is perfect for getting autographs but I would not say that most of the cards autographed are gradable shape but the autograph was to me the most important part of the card. Actually though pricey, the stars are easier to get than some of the common players that died early which makes the set difficult to complete. One of the more desirable cards is Roger Maris rookie which my card is graded a 5 and auto authentic but he signed a lot.. Anyway I believe desirability in the hobby has boomed from the emphasis of autographed cards being the major pulls when opening packs. That is what the newer collectors are buying and it makes sense as they get into vintage cards that it would be nice to have one autographed. Rookie autographed vintage cards have become a hot item and I guess ones who have collected them over the years are selling with the high prices. Interesting change in the hobby.
So kids/ people were getting their cards autographed in the 50s and 60s…. Where? I don’t doubt the vintage auto market in general. It just seems very very odd that so many are popping up
@@Bluejacket66 They would send through the mail as collectors do today. No doubt there are a lot of bad autographs and experts do make mistakes. The only way you know if it good if you are there when they sign. I am sure you have seen the Uncle Jimmy collection , he sent his Goudey cards through the mail. Amazing!
definitely some good things to think about. I'm picky with the eye appeal so I only have a couple auto'd cards, but I can agree that a lot of signatures ruin the look of the card
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
The UA-cam algorithm got me, and this video popped up in my feed. I’ve been putting together a signed 1933 Goudey set for over 15 years. I’m almost finished writing a book about the set, and my collection, including the stories of three collectors that got the cards signed originally in the 1930’s. One being the famous Uncle Jimmy. I currently have 217 of the 239 cards in the set autographed. There have always been TTM graphers, including Uncle Jimmy.
In the early 90’s I paid Mantle to sign cards for me for $50 each. That was a ton of money back in the day, but today, they are worth far more than $50. Mantle signed tons, and there were definitely a lot of folks getting cards signed in the 80’s and 90’s. Are there fake signed cards? No doubt, but us serious collectors do our homework. Provenance is king, and third-party opinions are important. Most of the stuff hitting the market now is from collections where people are simply cashing in.
The fake T206 card scandal happened because crooks were looking to make money. They did a reasonably good job, but the community figured it out and identified them. Not all T206 cards are fakes though, many were signed TTM in the 1970’s after the Glory of Their Time was released.
Anyway, you make good points, like with anything though, if you’re going to be a collector and invest serious money, you need to do your homework. Due diligence is key. If anyone is interested in seeing some of my collection, you can search signed 1933 Goudey on UA-cam. I’ve done a few podcasts. If you want to see some of my collection, please follow me on Instagram @signed1933goudey
Happy Holidays to all!
Thanks for the input, I appreciate the insights!!! But…. What about the question… where were these cards 10+ years ago… certainly not at auction ( in general)
It’s just a question. I have no doubt that a vast majority of signed vintage baseball cards are real, but I still question the numbers now being offered as compared to prior years ago
They were sitting in collections. Most of us consider ourselves autograph collectors, not card collectors. Uncle Jimmy got over 225 1933 Goudey cards signed in the 1930's and kept them for 80 years! There are several other similar collections. I know me and three other guys that have over 1000 signed 1933 Goudey cards combined and none of us are moving them any time soon. I'm in my mid-40's and am the youngest age wise by far. Many of the other collectors are older, retired, moving into their 70's and 80's and are seeing the prices realized over the last few years and are starting to sell off some of their cards they have acquired. @@Bluejacket66
This is why I never collected autographs aside from ones that I witnessed myself. Authenticating autos is subjective and I didn’t want to get stuck with a fake auto. I completely agree with you that given enough time and practice almost anyone can forge and autograph. If there’s anything we’ve learned in the hobby is that if there is a chance to cheat people out of their hard earned money, someone will do it.
Yeah the hobby has its unscrupulous side. What do you do…?
yep too many fakes
Don’t collect them, that’s what I do.
Head scratcher for me too. I remember seeing mantle signing at shows in the early 90s and they were hundreds of people in line. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone with a card in their hands. It was all baseballs and photos, and every once in a while a bat.
That’s how I remember it!
All good points Dave. As someone who has an emphasis on autographs and has recently gone back to loving cards, I can say there are plenty (more then plenty) of forgeries out there. I will, however, say that it's not that easy to fool the experts (especially with Mantle autos). There are plenty of people that don't work for the TPA's that can not only can tell you the Mantle is bad, but the forger (if known) who did it. They all have their tells. I used to be very paranoid about Mantle unless I got it in person, but learned from other people some of the tells of the forgers as well as of Mantle himself. Having been to several shows that Mantle signed at, I will say I did see a variety of cards being signed (a lesser number by far than balls, photos etc), but I can't really remember any of his earliest cards being signed (more like mid to late 60's cards...something that could be picked up at the show for not too much money back in the day. As for the T206's etc, I can see a few more signed by players that lived in to the 1960's and 70's, but to find Tinkers, Evers and Chance etc is pretty ludicrous to me.
The funny thing is, the t206 rule does not seem to apply to other "common" cards that were easy to send in the mail to players that were on the popular player mailing lists. Early 50's bowmans were quite popular, and probably easy to get and not worth much, so it makes sense that people would send them.
Here's my rules for autographs:
1. If you get it in person, you don't need a 3rd party to tell you it's real?
2. If you think it looks off, but the TPA's like it, do you really want it in your collection?
3. If you really like it but the TPA's don't, do some additional homework (there are plenty of experts out there on net54 for example).
4. Bottom line is, you work too hard for your money...don't just throw it away.
By the way, now that I'm getting more in to cards, I'm finding there are almost as many fake, trimmed, and doctored cards in the marketplace as forged autos...I guess it's just the times we live in.
Have a great Christmas Dave, as always your videos are awesome.
Great insights from an expert. I appreciate the input! Happy Holidays my friend
Dave I 100% agree on the Perez Steele postcards so beautiful with the auto. I wish i had that Mantle you showed. I was able to get the Duke Snider great moments from the basement collection 🤘
Nice Reuben!
I concur with your opinions, I started feeling that way in 2014 and have stood stern with those sentiments since
Like minds
Like me, a lot of collectors who came back in the hobby over the pandemic were kids back when a lot of the HOFers would sign at local shows and through the mail. I had a bunch of these in my PC that I got graded by PSA over the last several years as the hobby boomed. I think this is what’s happening; older collectors who now are selling their signed cards for a premium today, and/or trading up for other cards. A lot fewer signed mantle cards than signed balls; there must be a million Mantle signed balls out there from all his show signings.
Very well may be right!
Great video my friend, thank you for sharing this and please continue the awesome work. Also I hope you and the family had an amazing holiday season. Peace and Blessings always
Thanks Theo and have a happy new year!
I’m not a big auto collector either but I went to school with guys that could look at a picture and draw it perfectly. Just from natural artistic ability. I would think those guys could copy an autograph perfectly too 🤷♂️
Can you imagine discovering a back room operation of skilled forgers? That’s not fantasy
Man you are a “Purist”. That is a Great Thing! Man, after watching this video I was thinking “Man there is way Way WAY too many ultramodern autograph rookie cards!”.
Well the companies make them so you will buy their product. Or they will make them in a dozen different colors… or stamp meaningless numbers on them so you will think they are special… they are not
Great video topic Dave. I’ve wondered this as well. Most people that “destroyed” their rookie cards with an auto back in the 1980’s and 1990’s must have hid their cards in shame. Cashing in now! My local shop in the late 1980s had dozens and dozens of signed cards. All types of players, not just local Brewers. Price was usually $5-$10 plus the card value. Only problem was even my young brain could notice all the autos were in the same handwriting! Happy holidays to you Dave!
Haha that’s funny Jeff!
Merry Xmas
I’m happy you did this video, as these are great questions for the hobby.
Thank you❤️
My neighbor worked as an usher at Forbes Field in the late 50s and early 60s and acquired a lot of autographs of the top stars of the NL and of course the Pirates. He just kept his collection private. He also later worked for the Albuquerque Dukes minor league team so he got a lot of cards signed by old MLBers (who were coaches/visiting) in the 70s and 80s. Amazing collection-and yes nearly all of them are signed with ball point pen and he wasn’t thinking about “mint” condition when he was acquiring these from the late 50s-mid 80s
I’m nit sure what year sharpies were introduced???
@@Bluejacket66 Ha-not sure either. It was cool to see his collection though (not my thing personally either), but I was more intrigued by some of the more forgotten players that he had.
Celebrities have been signing the carte de visite photograph and the postcard since the Victorian era. The sportscard is a natural medium for the autograph. Only some had the foresight to get nice examples signed in the 80's/90's, and now those individuals are cashing in. This is the primary reason for the explosion of examples on the market.
Cashing in? Very well may be the reason!
I am not seeing a massive issue with TPAs certifying fake vintage autos outside of the example you cited. Sure there are some, but some of us were quietly stacking mantle mays and Koufax vintage autos for 20 years because we were getting them for basically nothing.
That would explain it!
Back in the day, it was heresy to have a card autographed. It decreased the value. This gives more credence to these vintage autographed cards being fake.
Some, not all. How many…??
Really appreciated you speaking your mind. Your insight has been valuable to me in my collecting since I started to watch your channel. I try to stay away from HOF or really famous player autos unless I get them in-person. If it’s a lesser known player that I like, I will take the chance if it’s not real expensive.
Thanks for the input… just some observations and questions
@@Bluejacket66 whenever you talk ballcards…. I listen.
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas my friend. Stay blessed.
Be well J!!
I totally agree. I think 90% of all vintage autographed cards are forgeries. There are just too many of them that have shown up over the past 5 years. I also agree that autographed cards ruin the card. I would much rather have an 8x10 photo autographed.
I won’t argue with you
I completely agree - back in the day (the 80s) it was thought that autographs on cards decreased the cards value. People had balls, postcards and photos autographed - almost never cards. Mantle died in 1995 - seems like more and more are available.
Not just mantle but DiMaggio, Williams etc etc etc
Two things I didn't hear you mention, but could also explain part of the explosion of vintage autos. First, a lot of collectors that would never sell their PC are dying. Their kids don't have the same attachment and sell their cards. Second, the pandemic gave people a lot of free time and brought a lot of collectors back to the hobby (including me).
That said, I acknowledge there are probably tons of fakes as well.
Sure but my point is, in general, back in the day when many of these on card autos would have been signed… people didn’t want in card autos. Now, here they are coming out of the woodwork . My explanation is comparing 2012 to 2023
@@Bluejacket66 I'm not certain most people wouldn't have wanted on card autos. When I was a kid, I would have much rather had Pete Rose autograph his baseball card than a note card. I understand you are comparing 2012 to 2023 and both points I made help explain some of the reason for the explosion of available autos. Your explanations are also very valid. My point is, it's probably a variety of factors that have led to the proliferation of on-card autos.
I agree with you dave. I never liked autographed baseball cards. To me, there's nothing like a autograph baseball. It looks so much better on a ball to me.
Kinda hard to show if you have a lot, but some UA-camrs have great ball displays!
Have a great Xmas Ray
Great insight, Dave. I am big into art and am always learning about the fakes in that world. You cannot be a scrub and get away with it. Like you said though, given practice, I bet many of us could get the practice down on signatures given the right ink & pen.
Contest??
@@Bluejacket66 hahaha! You lead it, and I will participate!
Those Memory Lane Mantles came from Matt who gathered them over years. He rolled those up in a signed 1952 Topps Mantle. Did ample research prior to each purchase.
As many of the folks on here, remember, getting cards signed was considered the same as drawing on them (as you said “defaced”).
When I collected in the 1980s & early 1990s, nearly NOBODY (& I mean NOBODY) ever got their cards signed at shows.
I do remember some kids getting cards signed outside stadiums only because they didn’t have the money to buy photos or balls. If they were lucky, they had the yearbook or team issued cards to get signed . I also recall people emailing former ballplayers cards in the mail because they were flat and cheap to get signed (cost of stamps).
So the countless pre-1970s signed cards surfacing are either from the extremely small % of kids who couldn’t afford photos / balls , TTMers, or forgeries.
As much as I highly respect MattyC, he does sometimes SEEM to pump his cards ( his CENTERED cards, and a mantle autos). He has not owned those signed mantles very long….as best I can tell.
I probably confusing his doing “ show and tell” with pumping and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. I would much rather have his PSA 5 52 Mantle than a signed one
@Bluejacket66 MattyC, I have seen some of his videos. Probably when I drooled over the thought of a signed 1951 Bowman.
You make a good point about rather having an unsigned 1952 PSA 5. Last night a 1956 Aaron PSA 4 with Auto 8 sold. I bid, but got to a point when I asked myself if I would rather buy a PSA 8, and stopped bidding. The thing is, there are many more PSA 8s than signed 56s. Did I make a mistake not bidding higher?
I remember when I was young and collecting where it was “wrong” to have cards autographed. It took away from the value of the card, especially rookie cards.
Now it seems like that is the “new” thing.
My opinion is I feel the same way about autographs (Balls, Photos, Perez Steel).
Also, I believe there is a ton of fake autographs out there.
Thanks again for sharing Dave.
Thanks for the thoughts Courtland
Dave, you make some great points! I’m not expert in this field to give my opinion. I do think it’s scary to pay big money for an auto and not know the truth. Maybe the autograph collectors out there, would prefer this topic not be discussed, because they don’t want some of there cards being seen as forgeries. Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Merry Xmas Theo. I hope you and your family have a great weekend
Seeing them in ‘new’ PSA holders get the spidey senses going as well. GREAT question Mr Dave
👍
Common sense tells you something is fishy about all these autos appearing the last couple of years. I don’t remembering myself or anyone having players sign baseball cards. That was a no no
Evidently a lot of people did? Where have they been?
You have the same mindset as my Dad. When I was little and wanted to get baseball cards signed he would always tell me it's a bad idea and that I should get a baseball signed instead or photos. Still my Dad let me collect how I wanted to and I did get many cards signed, but you're right in that getting cards signed was generally a no-no among the majority. I think there is a multitude of factors of why your seeing more vintage cards signed popping up. People did collect that way even though it wasn't the norm, a great deal of these people might have been autograph collectors first and card collectors second. We have to remember that autograph collecting and the autograph world is bigger than the sports card world. One of my favorite collecting niches has been adding obscure Phillies autographs into the collection and generally I've found a bunch of cards from the 50s and 60s signed. Then of course you have the whole world of TTM autographs and player's post retirement. Guys like Stan Musial probably signed hundreds of thousands of autographs. With all things as you mention Dave, there are fakes out there and there are even fake autographs in PSA holders, just like there are trimmed and doctored high grade vintage cards in PSA holders. As with all things, the buyer must do their due diligence. Fun discussion.
All great points Ed and I appreciate your insights. No doubt you know your stuff!
However the auto world being bigger than the card world….Ed 😂
@@Bluejacket66 I tend to believe more people collect autographs than cards, autographs are more broader in scale and people all across the globe collect them, whereas cards are more centralized here. I will say cards of course are more valuable, so if we are looking at this from a money standpoint, of course cards dominate autographs. Not questioning that. I'm more talking about scope of people who collect when I said the autograph world is bigger, compared to cards. Just my opinion.
@WeskerGriff ok! Merry Xmas Ed!!
My dad had some fanmail from players he wrote to when he was a kid one of the old yankees signed his card and wrote a letter saying "its a shane lou or babe arent around to sign these, they never even signed tobbacci cards when they were alive" so he was always extremely skeptical but he did get marquard on a t206 we still both own together (: he went in person and the auto is much shakier then ithers ive seen on the market. We dont share scans of it we dont wish to aid forgers
Great story!!! Thank you
This is what I love about the hobby. I love autographed cards and have no interest in autographed balls or index cards. There are so many ways to collect!
I think another cool medium is Hall of Fame postcards. I used to have about 100 different autos but sold them. Autos don’t do much for me but I appreciate the attraction
@@Bluejacket66 I love Perez-Steele autos, of course
@JunkWaxHero , just posted up a video on three Perez Steele postcards. Dave, I think with the lastest boom of collecting and the attraction of $$ for vintage cards; the Mantles stuffed in closets from years past, are surfacing. Good video.
@@doug_sports_collector Who is Junk Wax Hero?
I’ve been an on card autograph collector for 40 years , never did I think about it defacing a card and never did I get them because they would be worth $$ someday , I just loved having an image signed by the player , but obviously it’s a big business now
You are correct. Big business brings fraud
Dave, I thought I posted on this one. I really enjoyed your perspective. To me slabbing autographed baseball cards seems like a recent concept. While PSA slabbed autographed cards prior, they didn't begin dual service until Dec. 2015 (grade on card and auto). Then in April 2019 SGC stopped grading non-factory issued autographed cards, so PSA became the only game in town. As time passes, I think we'll see more and more autographed cards in slabs. I also think there are a lot of fakes out there, just like a lot of fake or trimmed cards in slabs. Hope you have a great 2024, and I'd like to connect at the National.
I will see you there George!!!!!!
I love autographed baseball cards. however, growing up they were extremely rare, and people rarely purchased them because there was no way of authenticating them. I personally don't usually buy autographed cards unless they are done in conjunction of the printing company
I don’t care for them but I understand the appeal for others!
Dave - I agree with you. On card autos were always shunned. Now that they're popular, where did all of the vintage ones come from?? I'm sure some people asked these guys to sign cards back in the day, but it wasn't common. I'm especially surprised to see the pre war signatures on cards. A lot of those guys died before card shows were a thing (they were never paid to sit at a table and sign autographs). I'm hesitant to buy them, even when they are pretty cool looking. My take, if the player died before 1985, they probably have very few, if any, signed cards. Great video! Thanks for sharing!
I agree. Certainly there are a lot of real on card vintage autos… but Jeeze I can’t explain the large influx over the last few years
I do think a fair bit of it is now that they are popular, more are being brought to the market to be sold. However, that same popularity also brings more forgeries too- forgers only forge thinks that are desirable and can make them money- that's the whole point for them.
I'm sure there are many (especially on the pre-war type stuff) that are forged.
There are definitely less vintage cards signed than other items for most players though, due to the exact taboo you are talking about. I remember this even more recently still being a taboo. It's probably become more popular in the last 5-7 years.
Interesting topic Dave, thanks for sharing!
It’s a big question that probably doesn’t have a pat answer!
I agree!
Long time watcher, my first comment, Having been burned by a few forgeries with early purchases, including a Mantle, I targeted certified Bank Checks. Much easier to research the correct bank, check numbers and dates, types of pen (eg Ty Cobb signing with green pen), more difficult to forge a check with all that data and cancelled stamp and the full legal signature.
Also like knowing that this was in the player’s possession, they filled out the entire check with payee, amounts, dates along with their signature. Having a G.H. Ruth and a John H. Wagner, Ty Cobb and Walter Johnson check displayed matted and framed along with a photo and a plaque with career stats, IMHO, is a great way to celebrate the player and show off a piece of history, Bonus if you find a check made out to cash, you get a second auto on the back!
Love your videos, because of you I started collecting food and beverage cards, including some nice Ty Cobb ice cream cards. Thank you!
Great to hear from you. I agree that checks are likely the best way to guarantee and authentic sig. sometimes it’s interesting seeing what they were purchasing or who they were paying
There are tons of forgers in every collectibles space. And to be an autograph forger, that would be about the easiest to get good at.
I would think so…. Most are good I’m sure
Yep, the only explanation is that these autos were in collections, granddad died, kids were selling them. Now dad passed on and for the third time since the 70’s, the cards come back up for sale, except now the cards. are being slabbed. I was always against the RC being autographed as well. That was a big thing that started being a controversial issue in the early 80’s , dont get those Rookies signed.
Maybe right
I guess no one was dying 10 years ago🤷♂️
I always chuckle when I look through bins of cheap raw vintage cards and see several of them signed. Seen thousands like that over the years. Probably real but who knows.
You’re right… who knows 🤷♂️
Until recently it wasn't even worth it to grade low to mid tier player autographed vintage cards.
If there's one thing for certain, there's always someone out there trying to take advantage of others. Also, you may trust your buddy but they can be duped, too.
Wise words
Damn Dave, this video definitely makes you think. I never thought about it until watching this.
You don’t have much to worry about as generally wrestlers can’t write😬😂
I’ve been collecting for nearly 40 years and agree with the influx of on card autos seems astounding. However having said that I always thought on card auto were super cool. To me it was a combination of two different ways to collect. You could always get another card of a player but the thought of having one that they actually held and signed made it that much more collectible to me.
I agree that a single signed baseball is the most beautiful way to display an autograph but after you own a number of them storage and display become an issue so cards would be my next choice.
I do know that I was in the minority though. When I did shows or TTM and got cards signed I was told repeatedly that was a bad choice because I killed the value of the card but 1. It was what liked so didn’t care and 2. cards that I had signed weren’t that expensive to get a second one.
I know that a number of TTM collectors would send cards to players that had high percentage of returns but guys like Mantle don’t fit into that category.
The part that I think you’re onto something is the high value cards like 54 Aaron or 51B Mays or Mantle or even any 52 Topps high number card. As a Pee Wee Reese collector it was no big deal to get an autograph of his say 55 Bowman but I never saw anyone get his 52 Topps high number signed.
Newer collectors don’t realize how many autographs were forged especially in the 90’s Operation Bullpen era. There are so many of those still floating out there but people put their trust in a TPA and never think twice.
I think forgeries are probably on the rise again because like you said the potential financial windfall to getting an autograph passible is worth the squeeze for sure.
Great video as always Dave and I appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks for all the great commentary. I appreciate your insight and thoughts! Merry Xmas!
I wonder if Mickey Mantle has signed more autographs posthumously than when he was alive....
I doubt it… but may be closer than you’d think
Agree 100%...never got into the Autograph game...My collecting doesn't go back as far as yours..I started in 81 but went through the mid 80s with all the Jordan fakes so since then just have always stayed clear. Good stuff Dave. Merry Christmas and have a Happy and Safe New Year!
Hi Gary! Have a happy new year!
An on card autograph with a photo of the player on the card looks so much better than an auto on an index card.
Sometimes… but I generally disagree . Most the time the photo vastly interferes with with the auto. To each their own for sure
I enjoy collecting on-card autos on vintage cards. The main reason why I like them is because of the physical connection to the player touching, looking at and signing the card. I'm quite particular as to what I buy because I am certain that many out there are fakes, even the ones "authenticated" by third-party graders.
Glad you enjoy that aspect of the hobby. So many things to collect!!
Probably 20-25 years ago I bought a Mantle/Williams/DiMaggio triple signed baseball on eBay at auction. The seller said there was a find of 6 or so of these but they were not professionally authenticated. Guessing I paid $400-$500. Everything looked great and I enjoyed having the ball for a few years. I considered sending it to PSA, but didn't want to spend another $400-$500 with the possibility it was a forgery, so I sold it. Looking back, I wish I jkept it.
As for signed cards, I agree that signatures usually look nicer on other media, however many collectors just like cards, and there are alternative storage considerations for other items. I don’t consider myself and autograph collector, but have some on 1956 Topps baseball. I am generally more interested in the condition of the card and if the autograph presents well.
I agree, the signed Mantle card you showed in your video is unappealing. A signed 1951 Bowman however may make me drool! When it comes to signed cards, they can become appealing due to scarcity.
I suspect your first thought about more coming to market following comparable sales is accurate, as cards which are first or early to market generally sell for more.
As a 1956 Topps baseball collector, I have a bunch of autos I picked up long ago as a companion to the set. My favorite is a signed Hoyt Wilhelm, which happens to be the highest graded by PSA. However, I am not a set regiistry guy. Someday I would love to purchase a signed 1956 Mantle, though I may need to mortgage the farm!
It would be interesting to graph PSA/DNA graded Mantle cards over time. Yes, professional graders are the best we have, though are not perfect. Neither are the courts and our judicial system.
Thanks for another great video! Merry Christmas and Happy and healthy 2024! 🎉
Thanks for all the great thoughts Mike! Merry Xmas
I believe there are quite a lot of signed Mantle cards out there. While it’s true that many people said a signature devalued the card, there were people who didn’t care about value and got cards signed. I personally sent a 1933 Goudey to get signed by Carl Hubbell in 1983 and had I been able to attend one of those Mantle signings, no doubt I would have gotten him to sign a card. You also have to realize that many of the people getting Mantle at those shows were people who idolized him when he played and probably thought it was cool to get a card signed.
last I’ll just give you two names to research. First is Jeff Morey, someone who actually sent tobacco cards through the mail to get signed but secondly and most importantly was a man named Conrad Anderson. Conrad sent out MASSIVE TTM requests going back to at least the 50’s and maybe earlier. He did that until the 80’s and was considered the first national sports autograph dealer. When I say massive, I mean massive! Easily six figures. I actually have an index card signed by Paddy Livingston that is personalized to Conrad Anderson.
At one point there was a pic circulating of a letter or index card telling Me Anderson to stop sending for his autograph as he had signed enough for him. Who was that player? Ty Cobb!
There’s actually a pretty fair chance that when you see signed index cards of Jimmie Foxx, Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb, any of those older guys that were still alive in the 59’s and 60’s, there’s a good chance it originated from him. Many of the tougher 50’s and 60’s Topps autographed cards are believed to originate from Mr Anderson’s TTM efforts.
Great stuff!! Why the huge discrepancy in items coming to market now vs just 19 years ago
@@Bluejacket66 I think a lot of it has to do with how much prices have increased. It’s crazy how much prices have increased in the last 15 years. It wasn’t that long ago go you could get a signed Mantle Topps card for under $500 pretty easily. I remember seeing ads in SCD for Mantle autographs being sold by show promoters for $5 if you sent your item in. I thought that was high 🤣
Very interesting Dave. I don't buy vintage autographs on cards because of the forgery issue, plus I feel autographs on cards tend to detract from the card's beauty. Like you I would prefer baseballs, photo's or index cards if I collected autographs. I do have some cards that were produced with autographs and they tend to look nice, so I'm good with them.
I love auto balls but storage is a problem
Yes it is. I keep mine out in a darkened room.@@Bluejacket66
You're right Dave it was sacrilegious to deface a vintage card with a player's autograph back in the day.
I guess not for everyone🤷♂️
I started collecting in the mid 1980s. I remember at that time, if you got a card autographed, it would destroy the value of the card but you had the value of the autograph. I had picked up for five dollars each a 1976 Topps, Gary Carter, a 1977 Topps Brooks Robinson and a 1970 Topps Harmon Killebrew Autographed cards. I recently sent them to PSA DNA, and they all came back authentic.
What I’ve started to do is buy mid grade vintage cards and send them to be autographed. Some HOF rookie cards in high grade are out of my price range, but one in good condition with an authentic autograph looks almost as good in my collection.
👍
Also, as a kid in the 70s and 80s, I had several autographed cards of Mays, Aaron and Koufax. No clue if they were real but I did like the auto on the cards.
Most people do!
Agree with you completely, I never saw autographed vintage cards at shows in the past. I had the players sign Perez Steele or photos, rarely on cards. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Merry Christmas Orlando. Hope you have special time with the family
Hello Dave! Opened first pack in 1985, but I have to say authenticated autographs on vintage cards can be very cool, as long as they feel like they could be native to the original design. I think the common use of facsimile autos in vintage designs set the template that gives a kind of design permission for live autos. I don’t care for autographs on card fronts that already have a facsimile auto, but when they don’t have one - I love when the player himself adds it. That said - you’re asking great questions! I think the answer is most likely a combo of the two phenomena you raised: popularity of on card autos has exploded so people who had them are cashing in - and so are counterfeiters. Great data - great questions! Merry Christmas, happy new year!
Thanks for the input Mr Mookie
I have real concerns about the number of cards suddenly ( relatively) surfacing
Was thinking more about 1960s autographed Mantle cards after my previous comment
If there’s one highly popular HOFer who could have signed more than expected cards, it’s probably Mantle.
I think he lived just long enough to sign cards after the “auto insert” started in 1990 w/ Upper Deck & then Score (who had him under contract before Score Board). Same for Joe D, Ted Williams, etc…
It does make sense we see a lot more of his later cards signed than earlier ones. More folks probably had duplicates of later cards due to how many survived “moms throwing them out” in combination with higher production numbers.
This still doesn’t speak to the influx of signed 1951 to 1969 Mantle cards at auction compared to even 9 years ago. I fear many of them might be forgeries. We’ll never know.
I did look at the PSA registry of signed Mantle cards.
Partial PSA Pop grade (take w/ a grain of salt). Didn’t look at BVG
1951 bowman = 29
1952 Topps = 19
1952 bowman = 23
1953 Topps = 57 (seems high)
1953 bowman = 45 (seems high)
1954 bowman = 41
1956 = 45 total (5 white)
1960 = 59
1965 = 51
1966 = 90
1967 = 39
1968 = 73
1969 = 120ish (white & yellow)
So that’s about 600 mantles…. and Heritage auctioned 60 this year…weird
( although I did include his multi player cards in my count)
Mantle has 895 auto Topps cards in PSA registry@@Bluejacket66
Another "long time collector/dealer" observation I've heard 1000 times is "where were all these super high grade cards 30 or 40 years ago?" One thing I can say for sure is that I have seen only 3 or 4 slabbed Mariano Rivera autos that were fake (1 SGC and 2 or 3 PSA). And I've seen 10s of thousands of them.
Who is Mariano Rivera?
@@Bluejacket66 Some guy whose name I have written on 1300 various items. Mostly small pieces of cardboard.
Yep - it's questionable for sure. I was collecting all through the late 80's, early 90's... and it was virtually a completely taboo thing to get any pack released card(s) signed. It was viewed by a large majority as "ruining" the card. Eventually, it absolutely can release the point that the 'bad' will push out the good signatures if the forgers are good enough. Can reach a point that the good ones end up being viewed as questionable, which would be very bad for the hobby.
Well said!
Merry Christmas Dave!
Merry Xmas🌲
I've always been a little skeptical of vintage autographed cards as well (particularly pre-war). Interesting to see how many more of them come to auction now vs 10 years ago. I'm sure that the recent popularity certainly plays a part but the skeptic in me thinks there are other things at play as well. Great video Dave and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Hi Andy- Merry Christmas. Talk to you soon
I am with you I think autographed baseball cards have very little if any eye appeal. I think the main reason for these cards coming to the market has a large part to do with the age of the people who have owned them. They are probably passing away or have passed and left these cards to their children and during the pandemic,the card prices went thru the roof and they are being sold by these inheritance kids . In fact my collection was giving to my eldest son and he sold a bunch to purchase his house with them so this could play a big roll in this flood of auto vintage cards.
You very well may be right!
As someone who has followed auctions since 1990, These were never a thing and I never saw vintage autos on cards. Like you, I was not at every show or saw all that Mantle et all signed but they were not at shows I was at and not in the major auctions... at all.
That’s my point…. It really raises my eyebrows. Lots of questions…
Autos can be tricky for sure, even pack issued autos can be forgery’s. There is a specific style of Bonds pack issued auto that someone associated with Bonds claims where ghost singed on his behalf so who knows. I’m always suspicious of anything signed in bold sharpie that is claimed to be signed before 1990.
Thanks Nate!
Sir, I am wandering over from the Midlife sports card community. I haven't been back to collecting but about a year. It's blatantly obvious the general level of corruption is overwhelming to me. It's very sad knowing this generation of collectors will be so dejected and suffer. Happy to join your channel and learn.
Hello . If you watch midlife
Please look thru my extensive UA-cam catalog which goes back 7-8 years.
I believe you will find the knowledge here, rather than musings and opinions. Cheers.
Always DM or contact me with any questions regarding vintage and prewar cards. I specialize in regional and food issues, mantle, Mathewson, Ruth, Cobb
@Bluejacket66 I'm a low budget set builder doing low hanging fruit to fund my hobby. I would have lost my mind having a shot at all those unfinished less desirable sets lol.
@royakard8536 set building is fun, but takes patience!
@@Bluejacket66 The lord is using it to help me develop what I need to succeed.
How has the total number of items at the auction houses listed changed in the same time period? I haven’t used any so honestly don’t know. I’m wondering if the hobby as a whole and auction houses have grown since then and as a percentage autographed vintage card numbers may be closer.
No change. Thousands of items offered. In general i don’t see a difference in the number of offerings at each auction. There are more auction houses for sure
Those t206s were always a joke omg ,,dave has to do a show every day ,,class act,,
Thank you!
I think it depends on the player and the timeframe that the autograph was obtained. It would have been odd for someone to have Mantle sign a playing days card in the 1980s, but not so odd in the 1950s or 1960s. In the 1950s and 60s kids were pinning their cards to their walls and putting them in their bike spokes. So why wouldn't people also have players write their names on them? I like a good vintage ballpoint pen autograph on a card. Also, who is going to fake a signature on a 1956 Topps Enos Slaughter card?
Good points. I don’t think I ever ever seen a 59s style mantle auto on a card though
Great discussion. It would be interesting to look at all Mantle auto sales in the last ~5 years and see how many have newer PSA certs.
What I really love is the mid 1950s mantle auto. I’d love to own one
I started collecting in ‘86 and I remember that getting a card autographed was a no-no even then. I guess it would make sense now that signed cards are en vogue, they are coming out of collections to the marketplace. But I’m sure there’s plenty of counterfeits even in those cards. I agree the medium for the auto is important - the aesthetics of the auto and where it is on that medium is important to me. Great video and thought provoking! 🎉
Thanks Shelby. A lot of outdo collectors out there!
Great research on auction activity for autograph cards. Puts things into perspective somewhat. I, personally, think you are right on two points - interest in autos is peaking but there are also a lot of forgeries. I am not an auto collector for that latter reason. I own a few but those where I could see the "whites" of the signer's eyes in front of me. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family, Dave!
Merry Xmas Gary!!!
We need more data points to make any significant conclusions. (between 2012 and 2023)I agree the 2012 and 2023 data supports the idea that there are possibly more fakes on the market.
I’m sure pre 2012 there are few and far between autos on cards
Dave, In the early years I always got autographs on baseballs, but when I met Roy white in 1986 He was gracious enough to sign half a dozen of his Topps cards for me and it started me collecting as many of his cards autographed as I could get, however his cards weren’t worth much and I’m sure I had a dozen of each so it didn’t matter if one was defaced! In the circles that I hung out in many of my friends got cards autographed. Merry Christmas Dave to you and your family!!
Gary, Merry Christmas!!
I think you did a really good job on this video and I think you made some great points. Hopefully people stop and think a bit more after watching this.
I’m not sure what the take away is..😂
Agree 1000% Dave. I've been waiting for someone to say this. When I see autographed cards that are graded, I wonder how PSA/SGC/etc even knows that they are real. They are guessing. I feel like everyone just takes it as gospel, but no idea why.
Who knows🤷♂️
There was a guy who famously faked mlb autos. He was caught because he was faking Mark McGwire sigs and everyone kind of knew that McGwire didn’t sign that much. Anyways the same guy faked thousands of Mantle sigs.
Yep
Great conversation Dave! I met a guy at the National who could sign Mantle’s autograph better than Mantle did!
When we were kids it was considered defacing a card to have it written on even if it was an autograph. Mantle signed a ton of stuff and I’m sure some people had cards autographed especially towards the end. The ones that make me scratch my head are the guys that were dead for many years like Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx etc, you would think autographed cards from guys like that should be very rare.
Just my opinion of course! 🤷🏻♂️
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Jim have a great Holiday my friend
Great video Dave! I believe it's a combination of money bringing these cards to market, followed by counterfeiters. In 1983, the first Roger Maris golf tourney, there were now shows in Fargo, and we had just started a collecting club. Most of us got vintage cards signed by Maris, Mantle, Ford, etc. I got a 1962 Maris/Cepeda signed, and a couple banquet programs, and these were all free on the golf course or at the banquet, got Moose Skowron on a 1967 Topps card, Richardson on a 1963 Fleer. One of my buddies got a 1960 Mantle signed, another got a complete run of Maris cards signed. Back then, our discussion was on value. Autograph cards had a smaller base of people to sell to. I was never really around people that said it wasn't right to get a card signed, it more or less preference. I hear it a lot on UA-cam, that collectors said it was a bad deal to get cards signed. Not sure what it was like in the 1950's and before or how long TTMer's were around. I remember TTMer's in the 1980's.
Ok!! I just was never exposed to the card signing side of autos
@@Bluejacket66 Fargo could have been different than other areas of the country too.
Dave we think very similar on autographs. I recently did a video expressing my thoughts on autos. I am a 1990-1993 pack pulled auto guy and I am very picky on my vintage autos. I think they have become a dime a dozen and like you said they dont all look good. Always fun to express our opinions right or wrong it gets are brains thinking. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 🤙🤙
Thanks Dylan, to each their own. If we all collected the same thing there wouldn’t be enough to go around. I just wonder why NOW all these very old auto cards are surfacing
In general I’m highly skeptical of most autographs. Main reason I don’t collect autographed cards. I always feel like I’m just buying a beat up card that someone faked an auto on. Not for me.
To each their own…
30 years ago everyone wanted autographed baseballs, bats, and photos in plaques....can't give that stuff away today, because A) takes up too much space (trend of downsizing among younger generations that want to remain untethered), B) these items can't be encapsulated and preserved in same way that cards can be by TPGs, and in turn easily shipped/transfered/monetized, C) Operation Bullpen took oxygen out of room from autograph hype from 30 years ago, D) hobby influence machine is zeroed in on autographed vintage cards as "scarcer" and in turn more valuable items to have for collectors writ large E) explosion of autographed insert cards in last 25 years has shifted mindset that cards are good medium for autographs
I appreciate those great insights
100 % agree with you Dave , I'm skeptical even on all TTM's autos ! How many were signed by family members ? If i don't get a autograph in person therea no guarantee. Happy Holidays To You & your family Dave !!!
Who knows🤷♂️
Big Perez Steele fan! But I love on card autos as well
👍
Aloha Dave ! I have heard people get an auto "in person" at a Show, send it out to get authenticated, and it comes back questionable.
What are you supposed to do ? Take a photo with the signer and ask him to smile with your face in the photo ? Ha !
My Dad has 100's of autographs of baseball players from the 1950's that he got at the games. The cool thing about that is they were in uniform, not behind a foldout table signing with a fat blue Sharpie as opposed to a "classic" blue ball point pen.
When my Dad got his autographs, the players were having the time of their lives playing the game they love, they were not old and disgruntled at a card Show charging kids money.
Happy New Year ! C ya
How many autos did he get on vintage baseball cards?
@Bluejacket66 My Dads Mom threw away all his cards when he moved out. My Dads Collection consists of 200+ Souvenir Programs from the 50's, a dozen pennants and an autograph book with nearly 400 autos in it. My collection is topps cards 1970 to 78. Don't buy sell or grade. Content with our little collection. In the next couple of days I will put out a episode and tell who the autographs are on my Dads 1958 Orioles Score Card. Doby, Maris, and Minnoso are the big names. Happy New Year !
I dont like how they make exceptions on autos not defacing the card, yet any other 'pen' marks reduce grade....ive never liked altering the card or comic, etc...
Merry Christmas
… good point
I saw a news documentary 10-20 yrs ago exposing a guy that had mastered Mickey Mantle’s signature. They had sold hundreds (thousands?) of Mantle items. Not certain how you could ever tell the difference? Even experts have been deceived. Re autos on cards, I dislike it on vintage but sometimes the newer nonvintage cards like TCMA or Pacific Trading autographed are cool because the card itself is not valuable and is a good vehicle for a nice auto.
Such an awesome signature but maybe one of the most forged?
I have collected off and on since the 80s. I am not an autograph card guy myself and it was not until the end of the 90s and into this century that people really started having players autograph cards. I myself remember hearing a.story during that time frame of a player (may have been Jordan) refuse to sign his rookie card because he viewed it as defacing the card.
I think a lot of us felt that way at one time. Evidently not all
In the 1988-1990 years the biggie signers did many shows here in the Chicagoland area..Mantle did his only show here in 1989 during the 1969 Chicago Cubs 20th Reunion show at McCormick Place...I got a lot of stuff autographed by him..Also making the rounds here...Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Sandy Koufax..P S...Everyone knew back in the early 90's when Mantle was really sick his sons had him sign everything but the kitchen sink to sell after his death..
I know…. but not many sportscards
Good points. I had started back in the mid 80s getting autographed cards n did for about 15 years n I remember articles if card's should be autographed or not n the opinion was not to. Now it's the rage. I also remember going to shows with my late dad in the early eighties n getting Jackie Jensen on a 8x12 but don't remember dealers selling autographs on cards.
Thanks for the input. Those are my memories as well
Collector's got so used to hits in modern boxes. I'm old school I could care less about autographs. It's just another way to collect. I remember when you wanted an autograph you bought a ball signed.
A lot of auto collectors!
@@Bluejacket66 In my current collection of ultra modern I have probably 600 autographs of yoan moncada he's been my main PC player since 2019. A couple on balls a few jerseys. A couple dozen IPA's & the rest leaf, topps, & panini certified autographs.
i have this 1972 mays in action with an auto, no idea if its real, but authentication is expensive, so i'll have to wait till jsa comes near me.
Good luck!
I don’t collect vintage autographs. Never have. The reason is that I simply do not believe that the authenticators can, with sufficient accuracy, discern the fake from the real autographs. With the amount of money some of these are selling for, there is huge incentive for fraudsters to take the time to produce “good” fakes. Likewise, I think the TPGs are terrible at identifying trimmed cards. Different discussion for a different time, but that fact has very substantially affected the way that I collect, and which items I choose to buy. When it comes to autographs, I just think there are too many fakes out there for my comfort level… I thought about buying a Babe Ruth signed check, thinking that it would be a much more difficult item to fake, but still have never been able to pull the trigger. Just my opinion…
Andrew I believe are thinking is alike!!
As for Ruth auto… I would love to own one but I’d always wonder. But then again, if a tpg says it’s good… it’s good to the world
I'm glad you brought it up, because when I did I was just labeled as a newbie that doesn't know anything 😂 Operation Bullpen was actually a real thing folks. But hey what do I know
Sports card forgeries have been going on for 50+ years. Like most “indiscretions” in the hobby- they rarely are punished. I’m not saying these cards are forgeries… I just question the quantity of high end autos ON CARDS, that have literally flooded the hobby
I started collecting cards in 1980 and some auto TTM. I sent 3x5 index cards or odd ball baseball cards that would increase the value of the card. Overall rule was never send anything you didn't mind loosing in the mail. High end cards was a big no no. I can see caution with a lot of expensive signed cards coming out of the wood works.
Back in the day an auto made a relatively valueless item special
Think it’s a really interesting topic. I’ve only been collecting vintage for 11 years and when I first got into it many dealers and shop owners were still pushing the notion of autos devaluing vintage cards.
My opinion would be that cards have always been the most accessible medium for in person autographs especially for kids.
And when Mantle started popularizing the signings at the card show circuit back in the 80s that’s when more vintage cards started getting signed. While it wasn’t the majority of fans and collectors at first, that number has grown overtime as it has become less and less taboo. So for guys who lived to atleast the 90s I don’t fear authentication when it’s got the proper provenance and certification.
But guys who played and died before the 80s signing on cards I agree we should all tread more lightly (not that I could afford most of those anyway haha)
Maybe. I just remember autos on cards being a no no. Who knows though..
I'm only 6 minutes in but have to address something you mentioned regarding the 80+ signed vintage cards with Heritage. There was a large, original owner collection of signed cards consigned recently from Florida I believe. There has been some sharing of these cards on Instagram and other mediums. I recall specifically a 49 Bowman Jackie Robinson and a 49 Bowman Campanella pre accident. I'll keep watching but wanted to chime in now with that info.
A lot coming to market over the last several years. Just seems odd. I think many finds are legit. It seems ….unlikely… that grown men were bringing baseball cards to the ballpark to be signed ( Ruth, Gehrig, foxx etc). Idk
It’s a great question Dave!! Do you think some hardcore collectors have seen what autographed cards are going for and decided to sell?? Makes me wonder too!🤔🤔. I hope more fakes haven’t entered the market!😮
Prob some of both. I assume most are legit…
I am an everything collector mostly vintage pre war post war graded cards and sets but also collecting autograph items- balls, cards , programs checks even game used bats as I love it all . Over the last 20 plus years I have been putting a 1958 Topps baseball autographed set together which at this point is up to 462 different autographed cards including all stars except Clemente which I have only seen one over the years pricey then much too pricey now. I obtained many at the National with trusted autograph dealers. This set is perfect for getting autographs but I would not say that most of the cards autographed are gradable shape but the autograph was to me the most important part of the card. Actually though pricey, the stars are easier to get than some of the common players that died early which makes the set difficult to complete. One of the more desirable cards is Roger Maris rookie which my card is graded a 5 and auto authentic but he signed a lot.. Anyway I believe desirability in the hobby has boomed from the emphasis of autographed cards being the major pulls when opening packs. That is what the newer collectors are buying and it makes sense as they get into vintage cards that it would be nice to have one autographed. Rookie autographed vintage cards have become a hot item and I guess ones who have collected them over the years are selling with the high prices. Interesting change in the hobby.
So kids/ people were getting their cards autographed in the 50s and 60s…. Where?
I don’t doubt the vintage auto market in general. It just seems very very odd that so many are popping up
@@Bluejacket66 They would send through the mail as collectors do today. No doubt there are a lot of bad autographs and experts do make mistakes. The only way you know if it good if you are there when they sign. I am sure you have seen the Uncle Jimmy collection , he sent his Goudey cards through the mail. Amazing!
There's no way I'd have Mays or Koufax sign a mint card of theirs. More likely a VG card.
I think most vintage cards are of a lowere grade, but not all
definitely some good things to think about. I'm picky with the eye appeal so I only have a couple auto'd cards, but I can agree that a lot of signatures ruin the look of the card
They’re not for me. Occasionally you’ll see a neat one
Great video.
Thank you
@@Bluejacket66 you're welcome!