COULD LION EL'JONSON REPLACE SANGUINIUS? WHAT IF THE LION WAS AT THE SIEGE?
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- Hey everyone Rho here! Today we follow up our Guilliman discussion, by asking "What If Lion El'Jonson was at the Siege of Terra instead of Sanguinius?"
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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The Archaeotech arsenal of the Dark Angels could probably have made a huge difference during the Siege of Terra, but the Lion himself would not be the same kind of morale booster that Sanguinius was. Sanguinius was the reason that the defenders did not all fall to despair and no other Primarch could fulfill that same role.
100% and and I'm a Dark Angels fan.
As DA fan boy I whole heartily agree
Completely agree as a Dark Angel fan boy
The Lion didn't give speeches. The Angel was a icon and he knew that, which is why he was always welcomed and cheered.
I mostly agree, but the situation probably would have played out much differently anyways. Lion probably would have just started chopping shit up without even telling the rest of the loyalists he was even there.
The Lion being at Terra i believe makes a much more dynamic set of situations then you outline. The 1st Legion does has its numbers reduced because of the campaigns against the xenos Horus sent them on just previous to the Heresy. What's left is a experienced battle hardened core of veterans.
Next is the 1st's Archaeotech arsenal that the Emperor entrusted to that legion alone. This would drastically shift the balance of power.
I do not see the Lion making any waves with the hierarchy considering the Emperor is still in control and he didn't make waves when Horus was chosen to be War Master.
The Lion's gift from the Emperor is being a superb tactician. Yes he couldn't fly to where he was needed, but he could anticipate the enemy's strategic/tactical moves on the field and be there ahead of time.
Finally and I think this is the most salient point is I believe the Lion would've seen Horus's action of lowering the Vengeful Spirits shields goading the Emperor to teleport aboard as a necessary gamble. I think the Lion would've interpreted this as proof that Horus' position was untenable, that his brothers were quickly approaching and would break the siege from the outside. All that strategically needed to be done, was hold. Suggesting he would've counseled the Emperor of this and possibly forestalled him from his ill fated teleportation.
This would've broken the Hersey and kept the Emperor from being mortally wounded. IMHO
This is a tough one. I tend to agree with you on the basics: the Dark Angels would make more of a difference than the Blood Angels, but is the loss of Sanguinius worth it?
On the one hand, it might be. With the Dark Angels' numbers and forbidden weaponry, the situation might very well never escalate to the point where the Emperor would take the gamble of teleporting onboard the Vengeful Spirit. Or at the very least, the loyalists would have a few more days, perhaps enough time for the Ultramarines and Blood Angels to arrive on Terra and lift the siege.
On the other hand, as you rightly noted, the importance of Sanguinius isn't merely his unmatched fighting prowess. More than unity, Sanguinius is *hope.* In a war like this, the power of symbolism can make a huge difference in how your soldiers fight. The Lion, for all his accomplishments, is a difficult figure to like. He is a brilliant commander, but he could never inspire the defenders the way the Angel does.
This 100%.
Inspiring as he may be having 50,000+ extra marine show up with all their war gear with bolster the shit out of my morale Waymore than seeing one guy fly around and do some stuff because those 50,000 extra Marines are going to do a hell of a lot more than he does…
in reality how many more Marines do you really need to take out one Primark? Remember it only took like 150 grey knights to Banish Angron elevated.
I’m pretty sure 50,000 Marines would make up way more than one Primark outdoes there fighting with the sword flying around just one volley of Bolters shells already out that’s what he does flying around on an afternoon cutting people up with a sword… and I’m talking about just one volley. This is the first. They are first for a reason. As much as I want to see that his presence outweighs that many Marines even only 20,000 or even 10,000 which still out due him running around by himself when you compare the actions to be done.
Remember a man can be strong but many weak men are far stronger than the one. They are stronger many times over and we’re not talking about 100 or 150 we’re talking 10,000+. The weight of the actions that this many could get done cannot be compared
In terms of fighting Horus it was the Emperors only option. At that point he was so suped up by Chaos only Big E could actually fight him. Remember even staying on defense didn't stop him from basically being murdered. And if Horus escaped Terra (warp fuckery) you still have the Traitor leader keeping the Traitors united as well as being essentially unstoppable in combat since Big E can't leave Terra for months to track down his son and stop him without the webway tear eating the planet. And if you say they could have just tracked him down later and stopped him how many traitor Primarchs did they kill post heresy. I believe it was just Konrad and he let it happen.
He might not inspire as much as the Angel but he worse on the enemy moral than the Angel. The Lion represents the Emperors final Sanction, while Russ is the deterrent the Lion is the one that will burn the whole galaxy if Terra falls and has the tools to do it. But honestly I think the way it happened was exactly as it was supposed to be, I don' think Roboute or the Angel would have been able to destroy all the traitor home worlds as the Lion did. It was good that he did not go to terra.
I do agree but the battle hardened 1st legion wouldn't need the moral boost because they are just as indomitable as there primach imagine the deathwing taking the front line of the siege backed by cusotdes the traitors wouldn't have stood a chance
There is a lot to unpack. Lion El'Johnson and the First VS Sanguinuis and the Blood Angels for the siege. Well Sang brought a lot to the table personally through his sheer combat prowess. A lot of people said in the comments about hope and what not. I think the size and reputation of the Dark Angels Legion would make up most of the difference in Lost Hope from Sang to the Lion. Does Sang inspire yes. The lion just fills people with dread. But when it comes to the Legions, it's the Dark Angels. Second most victories (officaily unoffically they have the most) Third Largest Legion after the Rangdan. The Oldest Legion who the other legions are measured against. Then you got the size and power of their fleet. On top of that the Lion was the best void commander with Khan being his only real rival.
I think the Solar War would have lasted way longer if the Dark Angels were present. Magnus still would have pulled his ritual surprise thing, but the Lion and his fleet would have adjusted to it better. resulting in more traitors ships getting wrecked and might have bought the defenders on terra another week or two before the first waves of traitors made landfall.
Then the siege itself. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt the Lion wouldn't come close to Any of the feats Sangy did bar 1. Of all the shit Sangy did (knowing he had Plot Armor) Defeating Angron is the only thing I could see the Lion doing. But where the Lion lacks soloing a Titan for example he makes up for in Generalship. He was the best of the best at generalship. His legion was also better suited in that role as well as being adaptable. I think the Lion would have gotten more out of his soldiers than Hawkboy did. I think he would have ceded full control of the defense to Dorn and he would have taken a small piece of the battlefield to himself and held it. That and the Dark Angel's tech would have reamed a heavy toll on the traitors. I don't think the traitors wouldn't have come anywhere close to the Lion's gate if the Lion was there. They would have lost too many troops and spent so much more time taking key objectives. but lets say G man takes longer to get to terra and then the Lion and company teleports to the vengeful spirit. Lion gets there first. I think the Lion actually kills Horus. The believe the Lion was a near equal of Sangy in close combat and unlike Sangy the Lion wouldn't have been as worn out from the siege. Why because the Lion wouldn't be out there flying around soloing everything. He would have been coordinating fire patterns, managing troop movements, reinforcing sections of the wall, being a General. Yes he might have gone out and slew the occasional greater Daemon here and there, maybe even fought and bested Angron. But he wouldn't have fought Ka'Banda as per Echoes of Eternity Ka'banda was only at the siege because of Sanguinius. Lion wouldn't be out there bodying a warlord or warhound titan. He would be calling in fires on that titan. On top of that, in his confrontation with Horus, Lion would not be trying to talk Horus back to the light like it is believed Sanguinius does. He would walk onto that bridge, Look Horus in the Eyes and maybe even say "look boy, daddy is here your rebellion comes an end, time to get your cheeks clapped" After that the Lion would extremely High diff Horus before the Emperor shows up. Clearly it wouldn't be an easy fight by no means. But the Lion would not hold back against the Warmaster unlike Sangy and Big E
Perturabo could have replaced Sanguinius easily because his absence from the Traitor side would have reduced them to a bunch of maniacs running around with no cohesion, while he and Dorn would have gone full Legolas and Gimili thwarting the heretics.
Also, Pert would have insisted on consolidating on the Vengeful Spirit. Big E’s chances of emerging relatively unscathed would have skyrocketed.
Also Perturabo had already beaten Demon Angron once, he would have had a good chance in round 2
What are you talking about?? Why would Perturabo even be there? He was a traitor!
@@Kainlarsenalt universe in which perty isn't a traitor?
Perturabo; I'd never thought I'd die fighting side by side with an Imperial Fist?
Rogal dorn: how about fighting side by side with an architect?
Perturabo: *smiling* aye, I could do that.
@@utubrGaming I think Perturabo might come back and say "I'd call you a Redecorator myself" 😁
The part about Lion vs Horus, I agree wholeheartedly about a huge advantage he has over other loyalists is his cold ruthlessness. I expect if his skills were up to it he would not hesitate for a moment to stab Horus right in the face and spit on his corpse.
Let's not forget, the Lion was only seconds away from giving the order to planetary bombard Sanguinius on Davin in Ruinstorm. There's no doubt in my mind that Lion El Johnson would ABSOLUTELY end Horus without a second thought if the opportunity was ever given to him lol.
I agree, the Lion would likely not even hesitate to strike Horus down.
The Lion is the living embodiment of the term ‘The ends justify the means’.
Remember, the Lion’s tacical and strategic brilliance works by him being able to (essentially instantly) know the most effective way to win. By that I mean he only has to look at the scenario for a few seconds and he’ll know what to do (even his brothers might usually need a minute or two so he’s usually going to make a decision faster). He may not always like whatever the most effective option is, but he will do it.
@@ShadowGhost0117 couldn't agree more
‘You are a gamble against the death of hope, my son. You are a roll of the dice at the end of the game.'
The Emperor to Sanguinius
The Lion is literally Dread, terror and near unmatched lethality.
Assuming Leman hadn't left before Sanguinius arrived, I would like to think The Lion would have been able to convince Leman to stay on Terra perhaps in the form of a duel like they did before and fight Horus together, still 3 wild card Primarchs could cause problems for Dorn, overall its a fun question to think about and shows just how important Sanguinius was.
Russ was depressed after Burning Prospero. He wouldn't agree to go against Horus together. He would say that Lion is needed here on Terra. Russ would tell Lion that he IS the Emperor's executioner and he would show him the spear Emperor gave him. I don't think Lion would try to act against Emperor's orders and try to be the one to attack Horus.
I also doubt that Lion with his lacking communications skills, would be able to persuade any of the primarchs, even less Russ.
😂 I can see Dorn's face when Malcador announces the team: 'Here they are, The Lion, Russ and Jaghatai - a good team isn't it?'
@@jkgf4671 good point, I know that they patch things up after the Emperor is placed on the throne but I suppose that was more out of grief then brotherhood
@@bekenorbert636 "look at this team, were going to do great" says Malcador while Dorn is panicking on the inside
The Lion was said to have strongest presence amongst the primarchs, his primarch aura affected astartes of other legions. I think he would be a big boost to the Scars and Fists alike on the front. His legion is also beastly. I think he would be a fitting replacement.
He can't boost the morale like Sanguinius can though. Sanguinius was a literal Angel, his presence alone boosted morale to obscene unbreakable levels.
There was a reason Horus did everything in his power to stop the Dark Angels from being present at the siege. I think the reason was he was fearing Lion most - like some ppl said, sanguinus brought hope. Lion would have brought despair in traitor legions. His legend were known, and no one would dare to face him. Even Horus. traitor legions brought fire power and unquestionable force - Lion would have brought more. And he would crush them. Btw - loyalty is it's own reward. At the end of a day, Dorn was appointed as pretoarian by the Emperor - and in an event as such, I don't think Lion would question that, or do anything for his own benefit. That was his adoptive father, luther. If Lion was so insecure about him not being appointed to warmaster or preatorian - he would have gone to the traitor side. But he did'nt. Please don't underestimate his sense of judgement.
Horus feared and loved Sanguinius more than any other Primarch.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't all the Primarchs outright fear the Lion? I always felt of all the Primarchs Lion El was the one that could take every one of his brothers in a straight up one on one fight.
@@Sevatar_VIIIth Sanguinius didn't fear the Lion? The Lion even made Sanguinius demi Emperor as he respected him that much.
@@Sevatar_VIIIth you're wrong, they respected him, not fear him.
He did not fear him. He had concerns because Lion had DAOT weapons. If he had any fear it was towards Sanguinius. And Horus's biggest obstacle were the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. He stated so to Kaspar Hawser.
"We should tactically nuke the Imperial Palace" - Lion El'Jonson, Loyalist. circa M31.
"Wait until they are all on Terra and prepare for an Exterminatus"
The Dark Angels Legion would have been stronger.
The Angel is undeniably an absolute powerhouse.
The 1st could have held the palace much better though, maybe enough to allow Guilliman to enter the fray
I can imagine The Lion ceding half his legion to Dorn’s plan, but taking the other half with himself to press the attack.
I think the key thing is Sanguinius holding the Eternity Gate which depends on the defeat of Kahbanda and Angron. I think the Lion could beat Angron as Perturabo managed it, Kahbanda I'm not sure.
That being said, whilst I'm not sure 1x1 he could beat the greater demon, he's a better general than Sanguinius, so with the various dark age weapons his legion has, he may level the playing field that way instead. As much as I love the Blood Angels, the Dark Angels probably would have faired better in this instance. Blood Angels are mainly an assault force, like the White Scars, Dark Angels are more versatile and better suited to defending a fort, though not as well as the Imperial Fists.
The thing that makes the Imperium the rotting carcass it is, is the death of both the Emperor AND Sanguinius. If Sanguinius survives, whilst it probably wouldn't progress as it would with the Emperor it would not decline as it had.
I think Kahbanda would not be there. I think he would slow down Sanguinius Legion.
I think the Blood Angels legion's recklessness and rage issues keep them from being on the level of the first legion. The IXth Legion are a full on assault force that win through sheer brutality and martial skill, I view the Ist Legion as an efficient death squad capable of tailoring themselves to any situation after reading the battlefield and then executing their plan.
While I do very much love Sanguinius and he's in my top three Primarchs after father Konrad Curze and then the Lion, I do think in a straight up fight Lion wins more often than not. Not saying Sanguinius couldn't beat Lion, when it comes to Primarch fights there are simply too many variables to state a definitive winner. Which I absolutely love about that subject.
@@mio87 possibly, he is obsessed with them. I can't remember any other greater demons at Terra though. So could just be Lion vs Angron.
Sanguine is the reason E got hurt in the first place. The emperor came back with that wounded on his side not a mace-hit… explain to me how a mace does slashing dmg and not crushing? What was the blood angels weapon? It was a fucking sword…. Why did the sanguine one lose his shit? Because Big E turned around and erased his favorite brother the only one that ever understood him that and realizing that the emperor only sees you as a weapon and a tool would make anybody break.
And you would think if the big he cares about his sons the way he does how hard would it be for him to turn around and fight off sang after he just turned around and destroyed horus? You don’t think he was beat up psychic’ly tired and torn up inside having to destroy his favorite son? Just to turn around and have a second favorite flip the fuck out and get attacked him?
The information is that the emperor came back with a wound on his side from a blade weapon… The information is there we just have to put the pieces together..
@@gwilym1991 Yeah, that is what I am thinking. But I can be wrong.
Didn't Sanguinius say or think to himself that he wasn't sure he could beat the Lion?
Doesn't the Lion have some.... IMPRESSIVE feats on his personal record?
In any case, if you replaced Russ and the Spear with Lion and the Spear, Horus is dead. Simple as.
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't it flat out stated that all the Primarchs feared Lion and that he was very much capable of beating all of them in one on one fights? I feel like I've read somewhere this to be the case, maybe not the one on one fights part of course lol.
I remember a few different comments in the series from a few Primarchs about Lion and it seeming they actually feared him or were intimidated by him.
@@Sevatar_VIIIth Yes, They all assumed the Lion would be made War master as well. It was between him and Horus. The books say Horus himself was scared of the Lion and was worried he would be given the title of warmaster. In the books Guilliman is intimidated and nervous around only the Lion.
The Lion and his Dark Angels were responsible for winning the only war the empire had that was close in scale and difficulty to the heresy. There is a reason he was given command of the first and most well equipped legion. The only reason his legion wasn't the largest anymore(passed by Guillemin) was because he lost so many winning that war against opponents stronger then astartes.
It's repeatedly stated that he was the best swordsman, and his dominant trait is LOYALTY. When Horus was given command over him, he didn't complain once. Why would he have done differently at Tera?
The real reason you can't replace Sanguinius at Tera is because his death is a narrative imperative. The Emperor HAS to be wounded for there to be any 40k. THAT's why the Lion couldn't be there.
@@Dave-nz4iu I've always felt the Lion was the one Primarch that could beat the other Primarchs in a one on one fights based on different things read in the books. But I've also heard many others say Sanguinius is the Primarchs with the best martial prowess and is the best fighter? I can't find anything stated in the books proving this, any thoughts on this one?
When it comes to Primarch fights I've always held to that being a...complex topic? It's partly a rock, paper, scissors kind of situation but more so being something with many variables and no definitive outcomes due to this.
What I mean is take two Primarchs and drop them into a caged ring, fight till you KO or kill the other. This instance has its results based on who fights who and ends with the winners and losers right? But if you drop two Primarchs into say an open city, and tell them hunt down the other and KO or kill the other? Well this situation has an entirely separate list of results doesn't it, different winners and losers in this fight.
Someone like father Konrad Curze is not going to have the same win/lose record in a straight up one on one inside of a caged ring as he will being dropped into an open city and hunting down then KO'ing or killing the Primarch he is fighing. Konrad excels and is mastered in the art of murder/torture, hunting down and killing in open ground is very much his environment no matter how well he will do in a head to head fair fight in an enclosed area. He'll still win against some of his other brothers like Lorgar, Guilliman, and imho Corax to name a few.
But put him up against the Lion in that ring? Certainly he'll have a real chance at beating him, but his odds are decreased quite significantly when it comes to the Primarchs that are known for being real killers in a fight like Lion, Sanguinius, Russ.
I dislike the argument Primarchs fighting being a definitive thing, that one Primarch is the strongest and beats all others no matter what. I've gone off the rails here but I'm just voicing something you sparked with me lol.
@@Sevatar_VIIIth Let me equally apologize for going off the rails. You've sparked me in turn.
I agree! It's like arguing which tool in the tool chest is best. You have to define what the project is to have an idea what the best tool would be for the job. Each primarch, and by extension their legions, have different skills and personalities for a reason. Like you said, Kurze is going to shine in a much different set of circumstances then Robute.
I think Sanguinius is meant to represent a purity of spirit (what is purity untested?) and beauty of the human condition. Could he beat any of the others? sure because he's essentially perfect but that perfection is peripheral to his ideals. (in contrast to his brother Fulgrim's ideal exemplifying the **pursuit** of perfection) It's what gives the tragedy of Sanguinius weight. The first step into the grim dark of the future is the loss of innocence and love and beauty. There is no grim dark future with Sanguinius.
The reason the Lion isn't given the credit he is due was spoken by the emperor himself. "some men need credit... others(looking at the Lion) do not." It is said in the same passage where the wolf who boasts himself his emperor's executioner is his warning, the Lion is his final solution.His book takes great care to explain exactly why his is the first legion whom the emperor entrusted weapons to no other, some the likes of which the mechanicum were ignorant of.
"He had always been guarded with his humours. 'Those few who knew him took it as a surfeit of phlegm, mistakenly believing his character to take after that of his brother, Dorn. But that was to mistake circumspection for obduracy, aloofness for indifference, and Lion El'Jonson displayed neither. " - from his book
And so the ideal.... I think best represented by the Lion, the primarch who accomplished more than any other, who saved the empire from the only other threat comparable to the heresy, who Horus took particular satisfaction in winning out war master over, and who was entrusted by his emperor like none of his brothers... is humility.
True humility that only comes from knowing what you are capable of and yet showing restraint in service of a higher ideal; Loyalty.
The lion is the embodiment of loyalty. When facing Kairos-mothu-fuc-keen-Fateweaver, who can see all futures and all pasts, the greater deamon could find no hope of an in or anything to tempt the lion with. There was no future where the Lion was disloyal.
And that is why if Kurze (or Horus, of whom he was bearing his message) had known who his brother really was, what the emperor knew, that the lion needed not the adulations of other men, then he would never have tried to sway the Lion with threats that future generations would see his absence from Terra as disloyalty.
But such is the nature of humility that it obfuscates power, it conceals intention and hides the truth. It is no mistake why the born and raised hunter, a groomed master tactician is the beacon for humility.
Had Kurze given andy creedence to humility, or the nature of loyalty then he would never have treated with the Lion. And maybe, MAY-be he wouldn't have had the Lion's great sword removed from it's hilt and rammed through his chest faster then he could see. And he would never have heard the Lion's response, the words that define the blood angel's and their primarch more than any other;
"I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward."
@@Dave-nz4iu I'd really like to know what the Emperor was thinking when he chose Horus over the Lion for Warmaster, and what the deciding factors were.
I'm assuming it was Horus's skill at maneuvering and manipulating his brothers (most of them anyway) into what he needed from them to achieve his goals. Also his skill as a military leader/strategist from an over all war perspective instead of Individual battles?
Certainly helps to have been with the Emperor from the early days of the crusade having learned from and been trained by the Emperor.
Was Horus actually the first son the Emperor found or was it not technically Magnus via psychic communication? I digress.
He certainly has Lion beat when it comes to socialization, public relations, and communicating/coordinating with his brothers and their Legions. Gods knows Lion isn't very social or interested in what others think of him, probably why he's my number 2 favorite Primarchs as I can relate lol.
You'll excuse my ignorance if this information is in fact already stated in the books, I've only just finished Ruinstorm and started on Wolfsbane. Although I have collected every HH/SoT and 40k novel/omnibus to date (minus a few old novels long since out of print and difficult or expensive to find) I have been taking my time reading through the Heresy and really absorbing and considering things that occur in each novel. I'm a chronological type of person so have yet to touch anything in the 40k time period.
With the lions surgical style tactical prowess his plan would probably be to disable a single servitor, which would start a series of events that made the traitor fleet blow itself to pieces.
I have mentioned Perturabo before.
But i think a REAL game changer would have been if Russ did as originally instructed and brought Magnus back to terra.
No destruction of Prospero or anything, just take Magnus back to terra.
Magnus could have been placed on the golden throne and keep the breach closed.
That would allow the Emperor to participate in the siege from the beginning.
The thousand sons are still a wild card though while most would follow Magnus no doubt, the flesh change was starting to return and if it hadn´t done so during the battle of prospero it would certainly have done so during the siege.
Now the question becomes what happens once it does, I very much doubt the rest of the loyalist would take kindly to their battle brothers suddenly mutating before their eyes.
It might drive those infected straight into Horus´s arms.
But still The Emperor being able to participate in the battle from the start i think would be a real game changer.
Not only would all of his remaining custodes be able to participate in the battle, but the Emperor would be able to release his full psychic might on the traitor legions.
Another reminder that Russ did more harm to the loyalists than can be truly measured. Magnus had already damaged the webway project, but if the Emperor had gotten Magnus on the Golden throne to lead the custodians and the sisters, that entire project would likely have succeeded, or at least it would have failed in a far less spectacular manner.
@@OutspokenSeeker Yup
Not to mention if he had stuck around and followed Malcadors Orders....
The Wolves could have bought the time needed for Guilliman to arrive.
Emperor Alive, Sanguinius, For the Imperium!
Leman Russ singularly did the most damage to the loyalists besides Horus himself
And just a reminder
An undisturbed Emperor, made the ENTIRE Word Bearers legion kneel, against their will, with a single command.
His powers outstrip anything seen in the Horus Heresy.
The traitors would be done before the war really began
I feel like had Perturabo remained loyalist and had been at the siege the Imperium would have won outright. Better yet had father remained loyalist and been there with the VIIIth Legion alongside Perturabo and Corax the Heresy would have been a wrap right there on Terra no questions. Perturabo and Dorn holding the walls, Konrad and Khan harassing the back lines and it's game over Horus.
@@Sevatar_VIIIth And what if Dorn and Perturabo switched places?
Would Perturabo be able to hold out against a traitor Imperial fist?
Also because at the end Perturabo was more or less managing the siege by him self, he had eventually had enough and just left.
Would Dorn have done the same or would he have remained to the end?
Oh, I just finally read the fancy limited edition primarch novel os the Lion's, and his fight against the khrave was awesome, and yes the descriptions of the Dreadwing's arsenal was so good! Reading the Knights of Santales using some of those weapons against the Khrave was dope too.
I love when the one Khrave tries to mess with the Lions mind. The Lion basically just straight up pulls a UNO reverse card on it.
@@ShadowGhost0117 So good!
Let’s talk about if Sanguinius stayed with Guilliman and The Lion then Russ would have stayed at Terra, had his rematch with Angron and used the Spear of Russ on Horus right before the duel with the Emperor severely handicapping Horus and if Russ died every Space Wolf would Wulfen out taking he traitors off guard and making the World eaters look like kittens compared to the raging tigers the wolves would be. Not to mention the 3 brothers would get there infinitely faster, blowing the traitor blockade apart possibly even fast enough to prevent the Emperor going to the Vengeful spirit or at the least having more than just 2 primarchs accompany the Emperor.
Horus was still suffering from the wound leman gave him even during the siege but the chaos adrenaline made him ignore it for the time being .
If the lion made it through he would've crippled the emperor's children and iron warriors causing Alpharius to bail on Horus leaving the rest for Sanguinius and Guilleman.
Nothing would change. Perturabo leaving the effort was the game changer. That man carried the entire heresy effort.
Facts, it damn sure wasn't fkn Fulgrim that made any difference lol. I'm still resentful to BL for completely wasting father Curze and the VIIIth Legion turning them into nothing more than mindless murdering savages instead of the Legion they were meant to be.
So resentful in fact that I've recently begun my brainstorm/rough draft of the continuation of Sevatarion's lore and the rebuilding of the VIIIth. I've never been one to brag or boast, but GD I'm amazed at what I've come up with and absolutely love it. Debating after finishing about 3-4 books worth of this if I should try sending a typed copy to Black Library or not. Seriously worried about having it stolen lol.
@@Sevatar_VIIIth Honestly Lord of Night is an underrated story involving the Night Lords. Great legion with so much more capacity for depth. We have such a famine of good writers these days though, so as long as you keep records of every correspondence then you might have a shot. Start with the offer, then send a portion of the book you think will sell it best.
I believe the the Lion and the Dark angels would have achieved outright victory with out the need to board the vengeful spirit, not defeating horus himself but succesfully defending terra and destroying the forces of chaos.
There is a reason why Horus mad sure Lion is not onnTerra (same with Guilliman) he feared the tactical prowess of these Primarchs.. IMHO only they MIGHT have the strategic eye to take advantage of the Chaotic Attack of the Heretics...
The Lion would have dissected the traitors rag tag attack on the palace.
This really comes down to what technology the Dark Angels could field. If it's effective then it's worth more than any morale boost sanguineus brings.
Going to disagree...if the countless mortals fighting for the Emperor broke the Traitors fodder would have more easily overrun and weakened the Loyalist Legionaries
And I’m going to have to agree with OP. Even if they didn’t bring any tech. We are talking about 30,000+ more bodies to do any actions that could be done they themselves within one clip of bolter shells being discharged. What do far more than some angel running around for an afternoon with a sword in the middle of nowhere cutting people down and that’s just one clip from the extra 30,000+ Marines do you really think they’re only gonna stop with one clip? You really have to weigh the actions of the many versus the one who’s that is way more of a rule booster Then watching some guy fly around as opposed to the Legion that just showed up and wiped out the entire left blank of the enemy like it was afternoon easy mode
@@HammarPwnsYourFace once again that ignores the untold millions of mortals whose moral was held together by seeing the Angel fight on, on every front, for days on end. The Lion wouldn't be capable of that, and even if he was he wouldn't do it, instead he would throw himself at the most strategically vital targets while ignoring the mortals expecting them to hold their nerve on their own in the face of the horrors of the Warp
@@FYAjibber000 Are you also discounting the Lions aura?
It made the other legionaries kneel to him and he wasnt even working it. The damage he would deal to the enemy is insurmountable I understand the angel fat for days on end you act like no one else can do that? I’m pretty sure all the primarch’s could do that. They were not that physically different on that front he was all superhuman and you act like the acts of the lion would not get around. Devastating an entire wing and flank of the enemy would definitely come headline news overnight that in itself is a morale boost of insurmountable measurement and just to think of all the extra people that they takeoff the field and play that’s that many less that storm the
Gates…
@@FYAjibber000 Oh you’re talking about is aura and what he did playing for point-to-point. You’re ignoring the fact of how many more numbers they have but they’re bringing. How many more ships that are destroyed in space how many more people don’t land. How many that they are going to take out before they ever get to the fight the entire death wing you are discounted that is such a factor that it’s almost on quantitative levels of not comparison there’s literally so many more that would not get to the gate if we’re not put the pressure on them they would be able to hold out way farther and we better even if you just take the primarchs themselves out take them out of the equation. The sheer number of what they bring changes the game dramatically. There’s no way that him fighting for three days outside the gate mixup for the month-long devastation of the dark angels bring to the traitors when they arrive. You were focused on the microscale look at the macro they win the long game this way you can lose a battle here and there will you devastate the supply lines and they’re back ups in the franks there’s no fight that they can bring to the gate and what they do bring will be horribly underpowered versus what actually happened
Did the Lion not suffer wounds in the form of a psychic attack in his fight with Luther? I would also question the Lion's hesitation, again due to the fight with Luther, but I also see him much more attached to Luther than Horus 😅
Funny how he defeated Konrad who had fucken precognition as an advantage (he did it so good tho, fuck Konrad) but was put to sleep by an astartes. Power scaling is weird between Primarchs.
@@dogalrorn pretty sure the reason the lion was put to sleep by luther is the same as the reason horus was able to give the emperor a proper beating 'chaos steroids'. If I remember correctly the gods themselves were actually watching the fight so they were pumping power into luther like they did to horus in his fight with the emperor.
aaaaand having just watched the video, having the Lion fully Replace the Angels in the SoT would be odd too. It could shift the narrative but it would also show Sangies foresight to be inaccurate.
What Sanguinius would have been seeing with his foresight would have been different if that had happened.
The Lion would probably opt to just bombard the Vengeful Spirit when the shield dropped
The lion is a beast. The dark angels are a beast. But you can’t replace sanguinius. I think you have this spot on.
The lion wouldn't have fallen to the black rage and attacked the emperor in the fight with horus, so yeah I'd say it would have gone better. People say sanguinius inspired hope...yea he did at the eternity gate. Then destroyed all hope by helping force the emperor to be plugged into the golden throne by falling to the black rage. Would the lion aboard the vengeful spirit fly straight to horus? Or would he wait to teamup with the emperor and dorn? Sanguinius has the smarts of a khornate berserker which is to say next to none. He can fight. That's it. Just so happens the lion can also fight...but can also actually think. Plus his legion is pretty damn good at everything as opposed to being highly specialized and some can be equipped with some of the most deadly ancient tech. There is a _REASON_ horus wanted the lion the furthest away from terra when executing his plans.
Well said! Anyone who thinks the Lion and his legion were not the best hope of winning the Heresy with an intact Emperor hasn't read the books. The real reason Sanguinius was there, was to be the tragic foundation for the entire narrative. His role will always be to die and bring about the fall of the empire. He's a symbol. It's just like in comic books. Anyone can come back to life except Spiderman's uncle Ben and Batman's parents because without them, there's no story. Without Sanguinius death pushing the emperor to fight and be wounded to Horus, there is no 40k.
I also feel that sang is the reason big e was mortally wounded. He snapped when E erased Horus’ soul. E didn’t even try to save him. That woukd have def made Sang drop off the deep end. Seeing E for who he really was. Just a machinist working his tools and discarded the broken one seeing that it was unfixable.. Horus was Sangs bestest friend afterall and held His legions secret with him and never turned on hjm. Big e did have a bladed wound afterall and we all know horus used a mace…
@@HammarPwnsYourFace I feel sanguinius was losing himself to khorne all along, the black rage being an innate khorne boone bestowed upon his legion when he asked for it either in need against horus due to his exhaustion and wounds or when he was swayed by horus to team up against the emperor. If you read the last Hersey novel, you can see how the angel is slowly slipping into an almost khornate battle trance especially in many of the descriptions in the fight with kabhanda and angron (and of course he slew khornes champions proving once again why khorne preferred sanguinius). I think the reason dorn lost his fighting spirit and entered his post heresey depression wasnt just that his favorite brother was dead, but that the one whom he thought best amongst the primarchs could fall to chaos and there was nothing the emperor could do against it. Guess we will see when the last book comes out but it's already been authored that it was russ that created the chink in the armor of horus, not sanguinius. It's a giant coverup. To me it's no surprise the blood angels were saved by none other than kabhanda on baal against the tyranids.
@@sawyeratkinson o for sure, he wanted birdyboi badly….but he had to settle w mr. Lobotomy central and just make due…. And for dorn. O yeah, I totally believe that. That is on point mate. And yes. Russ did chink it. Sang still could have gotten that kill being all. Overtaken by rage thx to the korhneflake you mentioned. Idk tbh. I see that sang took it and made it happen. It is totally a spin that would be known to only 3 people outside of Tzeentch himself…either way, looking forward to more HH novels and onto the scouring
@@HammarPwnsYourFace yea dude I'm pumped for the next book
I think the war would have went in other direction, maybe with a desperate horus teleporting into the thrones changing the outcome.
Love your videos wolf lord rho
Rao you should a video on what if the Gorgon ferrus Manus survived the istvaan dropsite massacre and was at the siege of terra. The flesh is weak 🦾🦿⚙️.
I support the Top 3 argument...the Lion managed to ambush Konrad...nuff said
And I would say it is extremely close between Sanguinius, Russ, and the Lion. (Russ having already fought and wounded Horus but not being able to deliver the finishing blow). I would say Sanghinius actually loses out a bit to the Lion as the Lion wouldn't hesitate to take the killing blow, and I could see Sanguinius pulling the final strike because he can't get past his love for Horus
Lion: *laughs in psychic lasers and darktech gene plagues*
A question? And a theory for discussion?
What would have happened if, through unexpected time dilation, resulted in an early deployment of the Grey Knights? Being mere moments instead of centuries as what happened.
With near full legion strength instead of being "chapter" sized and forced to remain hidden amongst the chapter foundings post Heresy?
Ready to aid the defenses before Sanguinius' battle at the gates?
Ready to greet Magnus upon his confrontation with the Emperor, to return the Noble shard and bring back Magnus and the remnants of the Thousand Sons to the loyalist forces?
The might they bring, the ability to negate the warp storms preventing the return of the cut off loyalist legions, the banishing of a large majority of the Chaos hordes, and easing the pressure to allow the defenses to focus more on the traitor legions.
This needs to be a Rho video. Yesterday!
You should do a video about the position Dante could be put in should the Lion return. Theoretically I could see him getting stuck playing peacemaker between Guilliman and the Lion. I think they'd treat him like a Legion Master of old and poor Dante would become even more depressed seeing the divisions that have always existed between primarchs. It'd would be an interesting recreation of the Unremebered Empire's Triumvirate
I feel like while Sanguineous was inspiring to the loyalists, Lion would have been unsettling for the traitors in equal measure. His aura seems to be very strong, stronger than his traitor brothers in some cases. Perhaps he would be more demoralizing to the traitors than someone like Sanguineous would have been.
It’s quite possible. Even the Lion’s closest officers were never able to feel comfortable conversing with the Lion. And seeing as how the Lion hunted down the Nighthaunter, he could have gone on a traitor officer hunting spree that would outmatch even Sigismund when he hunted down champions. Human troops might not be as effective, especially in areas where the Angel was present during the siege, but you can be sure that the traitor’s wouldn’t be having a good time of it if the Lion and his legion were around.
@@OutspokenSeeker I feel like the traitors would have more officer casualties overall. Perhaps even additional primarch deaths.
@@Johndoe102893 tough to say, Angron, Fulgrim, Magnus and Mortarion seemed to be less killable and more “able to be banished” considering their attachment to the warp. But Perturabo was still able to be killed, if one could get close enough to actually do it. And the officers of all traitor Legions would be vulnerable too. Which would have made small scale strategy rather tricky when the Lion and the Deathwing drop down onto your local leader’s head.
@@OutspokenSeeker True enough. I do think he would be able to beat many of them though. Even if not killing them. The Dreadwing alone could wreak havock on the traitors imo.
@@Johndoe102893 that’s likely it. Even if the daemon primarchs can’t be outright killed, they can be dealt harsh enough blows to knock them out of the siege
The lion v conrad... I only read about those fights in the prince of crows (still one of the best shorts, ever)
The lion could out do Konrad, by the emperor if it was the Lion he could have taken Horus down.
No, the Angel was a better warrior, but that's not the point, if it was just that the dark angels' archeotech would have filled the gap in the primarchs' skill.
Even then, the Dark Angels might have had the archeotech, but they were missing half their legion, they could have not fulfilled the Blood Angels' role in that instance.
The important thing here is that the Angel was loved and embodied hope for the Imperium.
The Lion was respected, but people never looked at him in the same way they looked at Sanguinius.
The Angel's very presence was so powerful that he could turn a battle in the imperium's favor just by being there, the Lion could have never motivated the troops in the same way.
Idk… a extra 30k marines w war gear and ships makes one hell of a rallying cry/point… not sure 1 primarch can outweight that. Ffs it only took 150 Grey knights to take down a deamon elevation angron.
We are talking just a regular one…if my math serves right. Its. 100marines per grey. And 150 greys to take out 1 Deamonic angron. Say deamon double him. Sang is just base so 15000 marines str and half of that is 7500. And the DA bring a extra 30k+ marines…. Thats 22500 extra ass kickers to add to everything when they arrive…. Just saying thats alot of man and firepower that one angel w a aura isnt making up. The lions aura made other legions men. Kneel to him. And he inspired fear in the traitors…. Id take. More men and a now fearful enemy over. A cheerleader angel….
@@HammarPwnsYourFace your math is flawed. The dark angels full legion strenght counted less than 200k, half of those sided with Luther, so they could have brought to terra way less than 100k. The blood angels were 120k.
Besides, seeing Sanguinius angry at someone else (Curze) made the Lion wish he were somewhere else, so that's that for 'intimidating the enemy".
@@ginobarone9505 unless your saying 50% of the legion was on caliban
If the Lion replaced the Angel... then what of the Black Rage? Would the Dark Angels be able to carry that burden as good as the Blood Angels?
Hours wouldn't be able to take the lion. It wouldn't even reach that point.
@@themasterninja110 it isn't Horus at that point it's the Host to the 4 powers. Way outclassed any 1 Primarch.
@@raphenangelos277 not by lion. Besides it wouldn't even get to that point.
@@raphenangelos277 Maybe the Lion alone wouldn’t have fared much better than Sanguinius, but you could probably bet that the Lion wouldn’t turn up to the vengeful spirit without sending some of the Dark Angel’s men of iron at Horus to soften him up, if not kill him outright. This is Horus after all, a being who is more chaos than Primarch, the 1st Legion’s armoury is stacked with stuff specifically for this scale of threat.
I think what that guy's trying to say is that, with the lion present, there would be no need to fight Horus personally. I believe that this is supposed abilities as a general, but I'm not sure I agree with that.
I love the Lion and the First and I wouldn't be surprised if Jonson would have been able to beat a normal Horus, but I don't see them beneficial at the Siege of Terra. I always feel like the Dark Angels and Jonson are at their best when they are on their own - unquestioning loyality and trust in their primarch, no need for explanations, just his tactical brilliance. But having to play to the rules of others and constantly take care of their feelings holds him back... Also the Siege was Sanguinius's moment for a reason.
I think the Lion would with working alongside Dorn and the Khan would have kept Horus away from Tera. Even with his bullshit teleport move that put him on the other side of the Sun when entering the sol system.
I'm willing to bet the Lion can handle a lot of traitor space marines, daemons, daemon Prince of his brother and a greater daemon, but What do you guys think?
I doubt he would do so to the same level as Hawkboy... definitely not vs Angrons rage
The Lion would have been like Tony Stark in the comic civil war. Cool hero sure, but an perceived as an asshole by nearly all working under his command.
The Lion cub was killing demons in the forests of Caliban.
No way the Lion could fight Kabanda, beat him, Angron, beat him and make him beg... While solo holding the gate.. the fight Horus.
No.way
@@adrienwatson2179 I know, but It would be cool as hell to see him try.
I feel the lion would take the russ approach and take the fight to the enemy. Like russ, the lion is a apex predator that would want to go for the kill. I would bet my bottom dollar that the lion would give chaos juiced horus a epic fight. Probably do more than dent horus's armor.
The lion and his angels would be a big asset to loyalist in the siege. But like Gman, the lion does not have the unifying and inspiring traits the angel has that would lift the spirits of all the defenders.
So in the end, The Angel was practically the best choice to come through to the siege. And thats all thanks to both the lion and Guilliman realising this about Sanguinious.
I think the "Hope and zeal" part Sanginius brings gets thrown around a lot while ignoring other Primarch gifts. This is just a bias from people in my opinion. For instance, the Lion had a Primarch presence like no other, such that even other Legion honor guards would subconsciously kneel before him. While Sanginius buffs the Loyalist morale, the Lion would undoubtedly cripple the Traitors' will to fight. Also, although this video is well made, it is flawed because for one, as always, the creator is biased towards Wolves and Blood Angels (only the creator would see Sanginius Leroy jenkins across the battlefield as a strength, most able commanders would not allow themselves to be put into that position where the battle is solely/ greatly dependant on you) and chooses to either ignore facts or outright doesn't research them. Secondly, the video is more focused on how the other Primarchs would fill Sanginius' shoes in his strengths but doesn't speak well enough on things the other Primarchs bring that Sanginius wouldn't. While he states things like, the DA having a deadly arsenal of weapons and technology, how the lion would take the fight to the enemy, etc., he doesn't really factor in the severity of it into the battle and its consequences on the Traitor forces.
That's going to be the fight to see the lion vs angron
I can see the Lion leading counterattacks against the traitors whole Dorne shores up the defenses. Similar to Sigismund targeting individuals, the Lion would lead his legion to annihilate an entire enemy front of Terra. Dorne being the shield he is and the Lion the sword for the Loyalists.
i don’t think the lion would have inspired the defenders as well, and because of his lack of wings he couldn’t be in as many places as sanguinius was. plus i think he would have chaffed against dorn a lot.
also based off echoes of eternity i don’t think the lion could have beaten kabandah and angron back to back like sanguinius did. to be fair kabandah probably wouldn’t have shown up is sanguinius wasn’t there but again the battle against angron was heavily dependent on their flying abilities and sanguinius’ flight was such a huge advantage
EDIT: lol rho said the same things i did. also this is unrelated but tabletop sanguinius needs a buff. none of you can change my mind about that
From a logical point of view the way the defending force wins a siege campaign is either: -
1/ The siege is not total, and thus the defender can bring in fresh formations to replace broken, destroyed or exhausted units. Thus, the attacking force can be ground down in trying to break the fortifications. Not all that many examples of this, the Siege of Tobruk in the Second World War is probably the best example I can think of.
2/ The attacker massively overestimated their relative strength and thus get minced in the first couple of offensives, and then defeated by counterattack. I can't really think of a single example of this off the top of my head.
3/ The defences hold until relief forces arrive.
Options 1 and 2 were off the table the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Which means option number 3. Now I'm going to theorise for both the I and the XIII replacing the IX legion...
The First were significantly stronger in men and materiel than the Ninth. Of most import being their fleet. They could have kept the traitor forces away from Terra for longer, caused significantly more casualties to Horus' forces and thus granted more time for the relief forces (spearheaded by the IX and XIII Legions) to arrive and lift the siege. The fact that the relief forces would be materially weaker would probably be offset by the higher casualties among the traitor forces. The Lion was probably a better strategist (possibly the best of the offensive strategists on either side by that point with Horus effectively going nuts) I doubt he would have been as inspirational, or quite as effective in the duel against Horus. Then again, I think that entire desperate boarding attempt on the Vengeful Spirit would not have been required. The biggest weakness to this scenario would have been supply lines. Specifically, it was The Lion and his Dark Angels conducting utterly ruthless assaults (up to and including genocide) against the Traitor home bases, manufacturing centres and the like that ensured Horus' forces had only what they brought with them to Sol. Without that I can foresee it turning into an even bigger meat grinder, and potentially more blocking forces being available to slow down the relief forces. In conclusion, too many variables in play to call it either way.
The Thirteenth, however, were the single strongest military formation in the galaxy when assembled into a single force to relieve Terra. They were the only legion on any side that received a significant flow of replacements and reinforcements through the entire Heresy. It wasn't enough to replace their losses... But it meant they took far lower losses proportionally compared to every other legion, some of which were effectively wiped out other than a regeneration cadre. Being at the Palace would have tipped the balance of power to probably a long-running and bloody stalemate. With Macragge and Ultramar on a total war footing and recruiting to match, it's possible the Tetrarchs could have built a small to medium sized legion equivalent while the battles of the siege were still being fought. Add that to the I and IX and the relief force would have been a hammer-blow. Again, I can't see a boarding of the Vengeful Spirit occurring.
Now you may be thinking from both of those summaries that I think Sanguinius and the Blood Angels Legion making it to Terra while the Dark Angels and Ultramarines were the relief force was the worst possible outcome. And if it was just conventional military, you would indeed be right... But! It makes no account of the Daemonic forces. It makes no account of the corrosive and morale destroying effect of chaos on the defending forces. The Angel was undoubtedly the best of the Loyalist brothers for countering that aspect and his legion probably had the most experience- including being victorious- against massive daemonic incursions at this point. The presence of the daemonic is such a wild card that I really cannot make a credible estimate. Especially as the other side gets a vote too. Every change you make to your strategy, Horus and Perturabo get to attempt a counter strategy.
I always enjoy these what if videos, because there are good fun. However neither the Ultramarines nor Dark Angels could have slipped through the chaos blockade as they were the larger legions and hence the distraction.
Both of the larger legions would have needed to leave half their number behind thus negating the main advantage of the Ultramarines. The Dark Angels might have had a greater impact due to their technology, however the Lion couldn't have been everywhere like Sanguinius.
As Lorgar put it - "Sanguinius was the best of us"
If it's a question of if the Blood Angels HAD to be replaced by either the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels, I don't think it's in question that the DA would be more beneficial for the defence given the kind of wargear the 1st had, their specialty as a legion, as well as their primarch himself. Big Bobby G is a great organizer and strategist, but that's not what Dorn needed, because he already had that aspect of the defence covered. Dorn needed a near peerless fighter and leader of men and morale, not a statesman or another general. The question really boils down to would the Lion have worked as well alongside Rogal, worked WITH Rogal, like Sanguinius did, or would he have gone off on a rampage, and... maybe, maybe not. 50/50, depending on the Lion's mood tbh.
I do think though that the Lion would have flattened Horus in a one on one. That was in many ways the Lion's purpose as a primarch. Russ was the Emperor's executioner, but ALL the primarchs were instinctively wary around El Johnson. I think he was made, in part, to be the primarch policeman in a way, and his talent as a tactical genius and masterful swordsman reflected that. Even his gruff, impersonable nature reflected that. There would have been no remorse the moment his sword crossed with Horus's, no hesitation, just cold fury at the betrayal.
I'm a Lionel fan boy. Remember that Sanguinius duked it out with demon aplenty, doing some incredible things. The first Legion would be more powerful and effective on the field, but the lion would not be the powerhous that Sanguinius was. HOWEVER! Given Lionel's acumen for dueling and the fact that he wouldn't be fly-battlig with Angron, AND his emotional disconnect (what ultimately foiled Russ), The Lion would certainly skewer Horus before the Emperor even got to the helm of the Vengeful Spirit.
Instant GG for the traitors. No chance with the Lion and his fleet there, wouldn't even break orbit.
I think Sanquinius being there makes the guards fight with alot more zeal than they otherwise would have. So legion-size does not matter as much as you might think. The Angel also takes down 2 Khorne champions that the Lion would struggle with. One of them? yes. both. no. The Khan would be able to get alot more support for his tactics with a legion that can do both offence and defense expertly allowing the White scars to do more than their one gambit. The Archeotech of the Dark Angels would help alot as well but some is too dangerous to use on Terra.
I would say even with my bias for the Dark angels. Praise the Lion! He cant replace the Angel. but he would be close. Much closer than roughbrooth currybrand
The Lions primarch book mentioned some of the archaeotech that the 1st had access to. The kind of tech that would just curbstomp a LOT of what the traitors could throw at them. I think it would drastically change the Siege to the point that I don't think he would ever even need to duel Horus. But if he did need to duel Horus I think it would end poorly for the Emperor.
The Lion might die very early on, when Sanguinius was confronted by a maniple of titans.
This! Haha
The Lion would not Leroy Jenkins into the battlefield, no one would. A sensible general as his role should be, will command fire on these titans. This is an argument akin to "If someone other than the Hulk jumped from a flying plane, he would die". Yes, most probably would, but also, most wouldn't jump out of flying planes.
Could the Lion replace Sanguinius? No, none of the other primarchs could have done what the Angel did during the siege. He was in a league of his own.
The angel killed Horus. The angel attack big e when he erased horus’ soul. Sang lost his shit and crit hit big e With a sneak atrack. Big e killed the angel knowing that it wasn’t malicious just broken hearted actions…he couldnt fix Sang while he was in rage mode..so he slew him. We know Sang is fine w the visions that Dante has. Change my mind! lol. Ive had this view for a long time ever since I realized that big e. Came back w a. Bladed wound on his side that was critical…not a crushing mace hit… who had a sword? A certain b angel…
Are you writing fanfiction?
Although a RG player, the 1st legion, should've been the firepower that Dorn and the emperor needed. The Emperor would've survived and a chance to keep the imperium together when RG got shanked.
Some document stats your missing. Ultramarines were listen in Betrayal at Calth to be around 250k and lost 100k in initial surprise by the Word Bearers. The 1st lost 50k during the Rangdan Xenocide
GMan also states when the the decision was made to make way for Sang that his legion atm had the most fighting troops
I would compare The Lion to Brad Pitt’s portrayal of Achilles in Troy.
Very much like the Guilliman video, I feel the Lion may have prolonged the Siege with his increased numbers and archaeotech weapons.
However, he wouldn't have the inspirational or mediating influence Sanguinius had on the troops and his brothers. Plus the possibility of division within the DA showing up at a crucial moment has to be considered.
As a one on one fighter, I'd imagine the Lion could take Angron at the Gate and be a useful hand against Horus in the sanctum/on the spirit.
I do feel that the Blood Angels and Ultramarines together would probably break the blockade quicker and perhaps force a wholly different conclusion to the Siege, perhaps prior to the breach of the inner wall, at which stage the 'shields down, come get some, daddy' gambit maybe wouldn't work out or even occur to Horus.
Given a more robust or fluid defence at that stage with the Lion in place.. its a whole different battle.
Lion is far more of a pragmatist than a hunter, in Dorns Primarch book, the first time they have an issue, the Lion goes along with Dorn and takes a step back, he also points out that he's fought on both sides of a siege, also, throughout the book, after all is said and done, the Lion was right about basically everything.
Lion can absolutely play defensive, he would absolutely attack, but only if it was worth it.
Hell, all of his actions in the heresy are entirely strategic and pragmatic and by all accounts, correct, even in Pert's case, if it wasn't for Pert's allegiance, giving the iron warriors big guns makes a lot of sense.
Now the numbers are also an issue, the forces might have been pretty similar by the time they reached Terra, the Lion started the heresy with about a third of his Legion and then halved that after splitting up with Corswain, so Lion may have only had a 6th of his Legion during the whole Imperium Secundus arc.
Sanguinius would have had around 110k because his betrayal was the most botched of them all as he only lost 10K marines when he was betrayed while Guilliman lost about half of his Legion, so the Ultramarines and Blood Angels had the most significant losses but we're about even in strength.
The 1st meanwhile was just spread extremely thin, so it begs the question of how much of the Legion the Lion managed to rally over the course of the Heresy and how many Corswain managed to pick up along his travels as well.
The Lion is the closest replacement for Sanguinius and he brings the best tactical mind and the most powerful single Legion with far less losses then the Ultramarines or Blood Angels. However the 2 big questions are moral boost as the Lion would boost the Astartes alot due to his specific Primarch aura, however he doesn't have the effect on the standard troops as Sanguinius or the raw strength to down Deamon Angron. So he is the the closest by far.
Honestly it would be a mixed bag.
I can see him causing more problems on the morale side, as he does whatever he wants to do and ignores orders from Dorn,
There's not much clever strategy involved in a siege, and lion never struck be as a defensive minded strategist. I can see him coordinating a counter attack with Jaghtai and sending traps/hit squads to take out enemy primarchs/titans.
I don't see him holding the gate, fighting angron, or confronting horus. He knows his limits well and isn't trapped by his precognition. On the other hand if we assume Sanguinius vision's were true, if he didn't die on the bridge, then somehow the emperor/imperium would be worse off.
Overall I'd give it to Sanguinius it's heavily emphasized his presence stopped most of the human defenders from going mad, from seeing super powerful demons manifested for the first time.
I remember the Lion telling Guilliman to be careful, that dealing with chaos that the primarchs couldn't trust their own instincts
The ONLY reason the Angle lost against Horus is that he had been kicking ass for days when they finally hooked up. If the Angle and Horus meet up fully rested Horus would have died and the Emperor would still be walking among us. If it was the Lion? That would of been bad ass to see.
I'll say it. Guilliman is the Primarch who should have been trusted to head to Terra, because he's the only one who could be relied upon to take Curze to the Emperor, which was supposed to happen. A sane Curze would be nearly as dangerous as Sanguinius...plus, you'd have Guilliman.
Bet him and Dorn are gonna have an awkward conversation about those weapons Peter Turbo is using to kill them
In terms of martial prowess, lion is most definitely top 3 strongest primarch. Tactically also a genius, and the lion is ruthless. He would not hesitate to use underhanded tactics to destroy horus.
The real question is, what if Rus stayed on Tera and took part of the siege and the later boarding of Horus's ship.
Maybe there is a chanse he woud fight Horus before Sanguinius or he coud help him and take on Horus 2v1, or be whit the Emperor, or maybe showing up in the midle of 1 of the 2 fights.
personally I image the web way could be better handled since the lion and dark angels are their and I think the emperor would allow them to help the custodes like they did against the thunder warriors
I dont know if Lion is better choice than Sanguinius, but what i do know is that If Lion was there, Rather than Fab angel boy dying Khan would’ve died at the seige of terra. Because it was Sanguinius ability to see the future that made sure Khan lived.
Rho, could you do another video on the return of the Lion? There’s a blurred picture of a new Azrael model in one of the Arks of Omen books, surrounded by Deathwing. There are also black-clad Heretic Astartes who could be Fallen. The caption is “The Rock Besieged” which sounds indicative of the Dark Angels.
In the Siege of Terra novels The Angel inspires the billions and millions of the humans to stand and fight against the Traitor forces. The Angel also inspire and earns the respect of the Titan Legions who are remnants from the Battle of Peter Garamond. The Lion would of not have done that, which would be a greater disadvantage for the Loyalist forces. The myth of the 300 in Battle of Thermopylae killed thousands in relation to their number not by their skill alone but, because of the 2,000 or 10,000 Athenian and Greek archers supporting them from the rear and the mountain peaks above the mountain pass that the 300 was defending. So like wise the Titan Legions and the billions of Loyalist Imperial Guardman supported the Imperial Fist, Blood Angels, White Scars, Salamanders, and the Custodian Guard. Those events helped buy time in hours, minuets, and seconds. For Guilliman to arrive and make a decisive victory on saving the Emperor.
Rogal Dorn’s strategy as he repeats in every book in the Siege of Terra series is ‘I am buying time with the lives of the defenders of Terra. Their lives are like coin for me to spend as he pleases.’
I think in a duelist scene
1. Leman
2. Horus undivided
3. Lion
4. Angron
5. Sanguinios
6.Jaghatai
7. Fulgrim
8. Corvas
We'd still have the Emperor with us if he had
dont forget, the dark angels also have dark age of technology weapons would be a deadly combination.
now a good hypothetical would be, what if Russ and the wolves were on terra and Jagati was in the void harassing Horus, Russ, El Johnson, Rogal. 😏
Has the arcaeotech arsenal ever been unleashed that we can read about it? What do they have besides volkite blasters and grav tanks?
Why does no one use virus bonbs more?
Given the erratic nature of the traitor forces, I think having a greater flexibility of diversified command, via Jag and a less passive allied legion like the first, would actually be a boon.
The psychic shield it's what I understand it to be the way he describes it to the krave that tried to see into his mind so it could be used against chaos with stunning effect but don't think it would prob have gone worse in the long run
well he is coming back so we will just have to wait and see
I think some of the dark tech the Dark Angels possess would have cut a swathe through the traitor ranks, particularly their fleets and this would have played a major part in defeating the siege
Imagine if u keep the blood angels but replace the white scars with the dark angels
This is such a cool video idea
With Johnson there could the slowed down the siege because perterabo would have had a much harder time planing for the lion. And if they lasted another mouth the rest of the alliance would arrive and there would have been no batted on vengeful spirit.
I watched the Gilliman vid too and it was only, "Well he just doesn't fight as well". I was kinda wtf? Gulliman's strength was not as a warrior on the battlefield. Rho's analysis here takes the Lion's personal leadership and legion fighting styles and attributes into account. He didn't do that so much with the Ultramarines. It was just their numbers in that vid. The thimg with the Ultramarines is though under Gilliman's direct hand and ability their numbers would have counted for even more. I think to often Gulliman and Dorn are seen as too similar. Like since Dorn was there then Gulliman would have been a little redundant an his legion was just numbers and more meat for the grinder. I do not believe that this would have been the case in a direct battlefield case.
I 100% agree with your assessment of how well the lion would do. But I'd say that the best loyalist replacement for the angel would be the Kahn. I believe he would have been so fast that he wouldn't have beaten horus, but rather would have lasted longer enough for Beg E to show up, allowing both of them to fight against Horus.
The Khan was at the Siege of Terra
Personally, I’d not put Johnson in the Top 3. For me, the Top 3 is Angron, Sanguinius(though it’s apparently a VERY close second by the accounts of other Primarchs in the HH Series and they’re pretty much equal until the Nails take Angron), and then Guilleman. After that, Leman Russ, then Johnson, for my top 5.
Reasoning: Horus himself wanted Angron to fight Sanguinius, and IIRC he said he would have one of them on his side just to fight the other, Angron kicked Russ’ ass during the Night of the Wolf(even if the Wolves beat the World Eaters around them), and Guilleman was one of the most all around skilled Primarchs in melee combat, though he was far from the fastest or strongest of them.
if ass kicking is leman not going for the kill and trying to teach angron lesson SOMETHING STATED IN FUCKING CANON then no guilliman is not the best fighter among his brothers the best are by cannon the lion, sanguinius, russ, angron and horus
The biggest gain from replacing the blood angels with the dark angels is the access to the DAOT gear the Dark Angels have and with a high likelihood there would never be the duel on the vengeful spirit because with the DAOT gear including men of iron they can fight much better then the blood angels. I remember a quote that the primarchs feared the Lion and he could beat any one of them in a one on one duel. The dark angels are described as the Emperors exterminators meaning they have all the DAOT goodies and they were the first created so they've had the most time to expand there arsenal and with the battles for Terra I expect the stores holding there DAOT armories' would be emptied to fight. They also have the dreadwing as well.
That is imo the gamechanger: Without the attack on the vengeful spirit, the Imperium would have been in a much better position. IDK if the DA with their DAOT or the Ultramarines with their bigger legion would be the better choice, but I think both would perform better during the siege and due to this avoid the costly attack on the vengeful spirit
Of course, this would be war how the Lion and Roboute would fight it: strategical and calculating. Not signs of the impressive heroic last stand Sanginius gave us. And I think we all agree that the actual events were much more epic than a simple "...and then the DA nuked the remaining forces of chaos and Horus ran for his life"
The Lion killed Daemon beasts with his bare hands as a child. He is more like his father than most of his brother primarchs in terms of his mindset - a natural anti-psyker. Ancient tech could have swayed the advantage on the battlefield, but the Lion would have wanted to go on the front foot & cut the head off the snake. Eg. Find the Vengeful Spirit & face Horus. But, If Horus knew of Lions presence a trap would have been set so the Lion would not have wanted to show his hand at any point thus staying hidden until the last second. Just my opinion
The lion would have used Horus as his personal bitch and vented his frustration in making him personally regret the decision to rebel
As you say the lion is a hunter, you know he would pressure the traitors, draw out their Primarchs and ruthlessly remove everyone of them. If Russ could fight his way to Horus I wouldn’t be surprised if as soon as Horus enters the Sol system the Lion doesn’t hunt him down.
No only would the Lion give other loyalists more time to arrival, him, his legion and the weapons he has would easily be hunting the fields of Terra and utterly destroying the Traitors.
You also miss out on another aspect….. imagine the lion and the khan hunting together….. the lion can use his Ravenwing along side that if the khans and pressure the traitors into position and then the dread wing land the killing blow. I personal think the khan and the lion would be able to keep the traitors sufficiently pressured that they couldn’t even lay siege to the palace for at least a significant amount of time.
Then the battle in orbit….. more of Terras floating plates may survive due to the traitor ships being harassed or significantly reduced in orbit. This add more time for Guilliman and Sanguinius to arrive.
Personally out of the 3 I think the lion is the best choice to have at the siege, due to his fleet, hunter instincts and the weapons he alone has.
However this would mean the traitor homeworlds would still be intact and that would mean that after the siege the scouring would be much more difficult, so in the bigger picture I still think Gulliman is best as he just allows the palace to hold out so much longer and once perturabo leaves it becomes a lot easier and they can last even longer….. the lion and the angle arrive and its game over. Horus can lower his shields all he wants there’s no urgency to go as Guillimans holding the line
Dark angels arrive
Pertie has left the chat
Fulgrim has the left the chat
Horus has left the chat
The death guard has quadrupled down
I don't know the idea of a three on one with Russ Eljonson and Sanguinius vs Horus at his strongest would be a fight that I think the three could win even if the Russ hesitated for a moment the other two could use that same window to finish Horus.
Number 1 Primarch is Best Primarch. Emperor Agrees, that's why he's Number 1.
Half the Dark Angeles legion was at there home world and that half became the Fallen.
What if vulcan was there next
Imagine a sparring session between Jaghatai and the Lion. would the Warhawks speed and destructive guile, win the fight? Or would the Lion prove himself the apex predator, with his no nonesense, stern, punishing stride?
Perty is better than Dorn.
Ka'Bhanda's bad day would have become a very bad day
You’re Wolf Lord Rho again, not just Rho?