RESURRECTION OF THE EMPEROR! THE TRUTH OF GUILLIMAN'S FEARS?
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- Hey everyone Wolf Lord Rho here! Today we're discussing the Emperor of Mankind, how Guilliman's intents to resurrect his father, could stem from his fears...
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we're discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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I think one good reason why the Emperor wanted to avoid claims about his divinity at all costs was because he alone understood the nature of so-called gods better than anyone. The fact that gods themselves have no true free will, but are elemental forces of reality tied to the image and desires of their followers. What I mean with this is that a true God-Emperor would be more what its followers worshipped him for, the image this collective psyche has created, than the mortal man he was. That would explain in part the fragmented personality Guilliman encountered in the throneroom, as if maybe the man that was the Emperor is now split between his old self and whatever his trillions of followers empowering him expect him to be.
Ouch oof, becoming a living concept hurts...
An Emperor that's even more outright full power fuckass evil is a terrifying idea but one I kind of love. I have to wonder if resurrecting him might pull his original self out of the quasi/full godhood. Then there's the actual Big E who would still likely be fucked up from a thousand years dying on a throne and then the god concept of Big E in the warp so we might see a new coup...you know.....Big E vs Bigger E. We've never really had a case of how taking a living person and turning them into a conceptual deity works in 40k at all. Does the deity actually form as a separate entity because its not POSSIBLE to start from a person? Gods are always made from scratch but its possible that Big E can be used as a vessel/champion of sorts for that same god the way Horus was and perhaps what possessed Guilleman wasn't actually the emperor on the throne but a nascient and soon to be humanborn chaos god. Or will Big E come out half complete as a god and still be very much so a different person?
I honestly absolutely love all the possibilities of what might be happening with the Emps situation. Its the beauty of the warp and how esoterically complex and nonsensical it is.
Utterly perfect theory, I've had similar thoughts but couldn't put it into words as well as you have.
Even more so when souls are the food that keeps him "living" on the throne.
The psyche of thousands of people a day tied to the current day state of the universe fed to him. All the while, connected too the warp through the Astronomican that is the symbol of the "Emperors light" and prestige as the "God-Emperor".
I thought the fragmented personality was already explained.
The warp is shredding his soul, each fragment holds the same memories but have a different perspective. Gulliman is the Emperor’s last hope. Gulliman is the Emperor’s last tool. Both of these perspectives are true.
One reason I've suspected of the Emperor not wanting to be worshiped as a god is that being the object of worship, having that many minds and souls focused on you actively affects you, changes you to more closely match your worshipers beliefs. It doesn't do much for a regular person but to a being as psychically powerful and attuned to the warp as the Emperor? He could probably FEEL that even during the Great Crusade. After 10,000 years of a galaxy of worship, well let's just say it probably wasn't his injuries that left him with a fractured psyche.
A flip side is that it doesn't just affect him, The Emperors humbling of the Word Bearers wasn't so much a display of raw power on his part, rather a lesson in the consequences of worship. He could do that to them BECAUSE they worshiped him, that in the act of worship, in believing him to be an all powerful god they surrendered their free will to him, much like they later did with the Chaos Gods.
Gods are emotions echoing in the warp. Chaos isnt evil, it is unstable. That goes both ways doesnt it? The emperor a god would be another being entirely born from the emotions of his worshipers.
We see it happen in real life, too. When a celebrity is worshipped hard, they are stuck being that one thing or else they lose their following.
@@saltysalt7339 Not entirely. Chaos is pretty much as evil as can be. Its purpose is to take good concepts or things and pervert them to some other means. The chaos gods control themselves as opposed to be controlled by their followers. They purposely play a game in which they know their chances of losing are incredibly small yet the board game can be easily broken by people refusing to play.
Unless we are talking Warhammer fantasy spirit/Chaos gods (No not the AoS ones) in which case yeah they are good and evil and the qualities can shift about a little.
Fantasy also had many more Chaos...warp gods than just 5. It had like...dozens plus the other gods of the different lands/races/spirit realms.
@@YuGiOhAbridgeFAN I mean yes. But they are born from evil thoughts of mortals and by no means is the imperium a fortress of good. The cult of the emperor is as evil as it can be.
@@YuGiOhAbridgeFAN Agreed.
I think one of the most non obvious reasons why Guilliman may have such concerns, is throught about what he did in Monarchia. That at the end of day he helped in breaking Lorgar, just to see everything his brother said actually happening.
Lorgar is that one character we all hate, but was actually right, which makes us hate him more.
@@leonardovegaolmedo5483
He was less right, than rather he ended up getting his way.... after he stopped wanting it.
@@danielboatright8887 in a way, yes. But even before his enthronement, the emperor acted like a god in everything but name.
@@danielboatright8887 This.
lorgar did nothing wrong
We‘ve seen what happened to Orikan when he became a God momentarily. Unending hunger and a disregard for anything that isn‘t sustenance.
@DEEPFOXJUDE warhammer necron super sayian
Except he didn't just become a god, he became a C'Tan
But he became a c’tan and they are literally physical manifestations of parasitic star things forced into existence. All they did before they became proper c’tan was consume energy infinitely, which is why they were so powerful.
Guilliman has a theoretical for everything, except for fighting a Daemon Prince Fulgrim without any kind of psyker support losing badly, and for fighting Mortarion and losing badly. I wish he would be the Guilliman from the Lore, who plans every battle from the largest detail to the smallest.
He literally went down to Iax and was like MORTARIOOOONNNNN... Everyone told him it was a trap and he was like "I know but I have to face my brother??." If Matieu and Justinian didn't destroy the Cauldron and stopped Ku'Gaths plan, he would have been dead then and there on Iax
@@strategicambiguity8390 I know, I wish the Imperial heavyweights like the Loyal Primarchs, the Custodes, and the Grey Knights would be the paragons in the lore, instead of the watered down versions in the books that they give us so they can stretch out bare bones stories for books they charge too much for.
Being able to plan for everything doesn't mean those plans will be successful the first time its executed. In the Heresy in simulations against Corax he lost the first 3 times due to Corax's subterfuge, then after that he won the next 50 being able to learn and predict his opponent better.
Choas is unpredictable in nature, and although Guiliman is a planner, he wasn't the greatest strategist of his brothers.
@@Orannis01 You don't have to be a Superhuman Genius to know you need Psykers to battle a Daemon Prince
@@kellyjohnson768 in a time of science and logic when Demons weren't fully understood that's not common knowledge, it's not even common knowledge in the 41st millennium. Like Wolf said, the Primarch's weren't made to understand Chaos.
I think the simplest reason why he might be afraid about his father becoming a god is that it would mean Horus was right.
More so Horus set the events in motion for it to happen in the first place
@@NocturneNox1 true enough. We do know that both the Emperor and Malcador foresaw certain potential outcomes of the heresy though. End of the day it must be extremely troubling for Guilliman to think his father might become a god after they spent the whole crusade purging and killing entire worlds or anyone who believed in such things.
He was right
But he became all ugly and deformed
It means lorgar was right.. which is worse
I think he’s afraid of his father because and I cant quote this but in the recent trilogy he said when he talked to his father he didn’t feel any humanity left in him. The emperor might be against chaos but if they were gone would he still be on the side of the imperium?
Thats why. He sees the religious fervor and thinks if he comes back he'll be another warp being with powers to compel others. And he isn't wrong, the story has been pointing to that for years now. Emperor would be the 5th chaos god if he can't regain himself. Gulliman doesn't want to take that chance.
I remember that line, it was something along the lines of "father lost none of his power but he has lost a lot humanity". However the context there was about the psyker-conversation they had. Emperor used to be able to have mental conversations with Primarchs and marines in a way where they wouldn't even understand they are in a mental realm, but this one was more of the Emperor pumping psyker power into Guiliman that even he found hard to cope with. To me that did not feel ominous - Emperor was not really human anyway, he simply stopped being nice about it in that one conversation. Anyways, art of good writing is in people filling in blanks themselves and doing it differently.
@@TKUltra971 Not chaos, but a warp god. I would more say he will be something like the gods of order in old lore. Anathema because he brings order, not because of being somehow good.
I dont think the Emperor was really a humane leader, as he wiped the whole thunder warriors and some Primarchs from existence due to them not fitting in his view of the future
@@syafiqsafiuddin8356 He wasn't VERY humane but he still had some amount of humanity in him. He did fucked up things and was I mean.....literally just a big space fascist but substituted religious extremism with secular extremism. He's definitely a proper bastard aside from some bits and pieces of humanity shining through. But he DID have that humanity if he doesn't even have those scraps of left holding him back in any way? That's a far far far worse thing than he was before he sat on the throne for sure. I don't even want to see the atrocities he'd inflict on mankind and the universe at large because Big E COULD be so much worse than he was before.
Its funny that Guilliman would be disturbed by the Emperor 'using and throwing away' the young girl to defeat Mortarion and Nurgle when literally thousands are immolated every day just to keep the Astronomican's light going for space traffic.
One is a conscious active decision on the Emperor's part.
@@ffwast don’t forget Monarchia lol
You ever get the feeling that Tzeench went along with the Emperor's plan to make the primarchs cause he was bored with the 4 chaos god setup already and wanted a 5th on the field? Not saying it'll work out to his benefit but sometimes the way things fall into place have... that woven fate feel
Why would I ever get that feeling?
@@justicedemocrat9357 Well I mean Chaos Undivided always falls apart. Khorne can more easily ally with Nurgle than with Slaanesh or Tzeentch. And vice versa. A 5th god (not Malal) might be able to more firmly bind the pantheon together.
I mean my impression is Tzeench wouldn't want Chaos to win .. because it would be boring, better an endless flow of change
I think it was malcodor and tzeench
1 Brother,my assumptions go toward the Lion,not bcz he is my favourite,but because the Emperor gave him and his Legion the weapons from the Dark Age of Technology, he was trusted with something that has a huge power,plus the Lion has the total trust of the Emperor
Magnus and Alpharius (or possibly Omegon) are also contenders. Alpharius (or maybe Omegon) because he knew of chaos and knew that the Emperor desired its destruction perhaps more than anything (which is why he worked with the alien group whos name I can't remember) and Magnus because, well Magnus and the Emperor actually met in the warp, he was already there in it, exploring it, makes sense for the Emperor to discuss it with him.
@@TheAnon03 now that i think about Alpharius,i had a flashback about how Alpharius was found (according his book) and i might agree with you on that.
I think guillman is concerned about his father instead of afraid, because the emperor made it clear that he is an atheist and hated worship of himself so it probably doesn't make sense to guillman that the emperor is becoming a god
Thanks for your very faithful and not at all alarming take about the Imperium, Mister “IronWarriors4Lyfe.”
The emperor’s a pragmatist and right now faith is the only weapon that gives the Imperium a fighting chance.
I think he is concerned, and also terrified. The emperor is a far different being than when Guilliman went into his 10000 year slumber. Also the emperor was never an atheists, he certainly always knew of the existence of the gods. He was pushing atheism for the human race though, as he saw the horrors of what the worship of the gods had on humanity throughout the majority of human history.
@@usefulidiots3970 It would be more accurate to say that the Emperor - at least, the Emperor before the Heresy - was *anti*theist; He knew Gods were real, but vehemently opposed them for their manipulation of humanity.
Ten millennia on the Golden Throne, however, may have led him to rethink his stance. We just don't know yet.
@@jonharrison9222 my thoughts exactly probably hates that this is what he has to resort to, but what other card can he play?
Guilliman knows power corrupts. He saw what it did during heresy. And after his return to Terra I think he knows the Emperor is willing to use people for this own ends. I think he fears the Emperor being corrupted by the power of the warp, replacing 4 chaos gods with himself
I don't think there is anything he can do to stop it. In fact I'm fairly certain he's too late. He walks a dangerous line if he seeks to stymie the Emperor.
To contemplate is treachery, to attempt it is heresy. Either way, Guilliman is damned. He is not Lord and Master of Mankind, it is not his choice, it is not his right.
@@elgerifico If Guilliman doesn't try to stop this, the Emperor will become a Chaos God of Order, and the implications of that would be disastrous for basically everyone in the galaxy.
@@ZanaTheBatPony But is such a funny concept, isnt it ? The *chaos* god of *order* . I shall be honest, i think that even if such a thing happened, he would still oppose the other chaos gods.
@@DM-Oz He'll probably oppose the other Chaos Gods, if for no other reason than to have a monopoly on the Warp, leaving everyone in the Milky Way Galaxy at the mercy of ONE Chaos God.
It is likely more simple than that. Chaos is running rampant across the galaxy and can reach into the Materium through literally any Psyker. Being able to lock entire worlds out of the Warp would be a *HUGE* strategic advantage.
It's been implied with a conversation with Cawl-Inferior that the Emperor wouldn't be the same man even if he did return and walk down the golden throne on 2 feet. There is a great deal of speculation that he is going to use a large portion of his power to reincarnate himself. However, Chaos is aware of this plot as well and are seeking where the child will be born. The child is fated to basically reset the board with the war with chaos more or less back to the start of the GC. Sounds interesting.
Or the Emperor will be something like a god of order in old lore. Anathema because he brings order, not because he brings goodness.
@Sabizos the problem is that if the emperor dies chaos or the nids win so you cant really cobstruct a narrative through it
Then earth is destroyed and they can't do that. There would be nothing for us to link to in 40k.
@@Dimes607 Perhaps they will just go with whatever idea they think will garner the most model sales...
@@horusluprecal1144 if earth is gone there is no 40k.
"JUST GET IN THE BIOFURNACE, DAD!"
At first I was skeptical about your idea, but then I remembered something. There was a bit where Cawl and Emps had a conversation and Emps said something like "You will betray me, once. You will be right to do so."
Judas parallel with Cawl...
Interesting.
That line is taken from context. It's in reference to Cawl creating the Primaris which is a crime against the holy Astartes as the emperor created them. Emps forgave Cawl in that moment to make sure he would create the Primaris later on
I think the power funneled to him in the warp is the reason for sitting on the golden throne. It anchors him to his corpse in the materium to keep him from becoming a warp god. He wants the power of a chaos God but he knows they're malignant feedback loops in the warp so he cannot allow that power to be detached from his mortal body to join them in becoming such an entity.
Gulliman and his Theoreticals reminds me of Batman and his Justice League Protocol
Except Batman is capable of following through, while Guilliman gets his ass beat by snake-man and stinky-boy.
I think the primarch fears that the Emperor has not led mankind out of their strife and war, something he may believe that he had gained the power to do, because strife and war breeds fearful, reverent worship. I think he may fear that the Emperor has grown addicted to the warp, to its power, to godhood and that this degradation around him is not the work of an impotent man's failure, but the hubris of a man that thought he could hold together mankind, play god, and not become addicted to it- changed by it... Furthermore, to promote that dependance to him. He has become no different than any other chaos god, he wants and needs devotees. He let his body rot and abandoned it. Perhaps he even resents it.
The primarch may not only fear this, but likely, be quite sure of it.
Really good take
Well there is a direct indication that Guilliman is interested in Necron Tech in DI ... he talks about Cawl reverse engineering the Pilon tech to suppress the Warp storms its why he attacked the Eye of Raukus (sp)
I think you have answered your question in your alpha legion video - within that video the goal of the Emperor was to make sure humanity Endures at ALL costs and Alpharius thought destroying Chaos at all costs was the Emperor’s ultimate goal.
What if the Big E has changed and becoming a god overall will doom humanity to be HIS tools that he will use to destroy Chaos and the cabal gets their victory…
I still wonder if Alpharius isn't working from within to bring down Chaos...
This is Warhammer 40k. No matter what happens everyone loses. There is no happy or hopeful end.
Momentary happiness will suffice
The lore is just getting more and more excellent...Never have I seen more people excited about what is happening in the 40k universe and I have played since the Rouge Trader days.
Good to hear from someone who has followed since the beginning
I was always under the impression that Malcador was specifically talking about Dorn being unable to understand the Immaterium, rather than all the Primarchs. Dorn is practically the embodiment of the materium, especially when compared to, say, Magnus.
In the words of Jud from Pet Semetary, "Sometimes, dead's better"
If you remember what the Emperor said, it wasn't "He just told one of his sons". What he said is "He just told one of you".
So the answer is Valdor. Valdor is treated like an equal amongst the primarchs, and he is incorruptible. That is the only answer that makes any sense, with the possible exception of the lost primarchs.
Might be why they are "lost". They were made to deal with the Warp stuff.
Being a huge Dark Angels fan this makes me think how the Lion would react to Guileman's plan here or would the Lion be as concerned as Roboutte given the Lion was a huge proponant of the imperial truth.
Maybe the golden throne itself acted like a prison to the emperor and turned him into a god he did not want to be by the imperium, guilliman sees this is not the way and uses the same tech that stopped the old ones to stop the emperor from destroying the galaxy from the warp itself
So 10,000 psykers a day to power a prison ment for a god. 🤔 That would actually make alot of sense.
@@strategicambiguity8390 -_- are you all fools or what. 10 000 psykers are for ASTRONOMICOM FFS
I've never been invested in any of wh40k, save a passing fascination with the Martians, but this plotline, the reawakening of The Emporer, and his potential partial-total godhood. THIS i'm interested in.
Because gods are a blight on reality no matter where they come from. I went from thinking the Ultra Marines (and Guilliman) were the most boring chapter to loving Guilliman and his chapter almost first of all (ok Sanguinius still rules). All of the Primarchs are geniuses of war in their own way but Guilliman is pretty much the only one of them who is an actual genius in more general/human respects (hinted at in the Corax omnbus). That's why he's the easy pick to return first (bc the Imperium wouldn't survive without him) but also why he's such a lynchpin. The other brothers can complement/work against him but they all need Guilliman. He doesn't necessarliy need them in the same way. As Horus said in one of the novels, if Guilliman had joined their side of the war it would have already been won.
The Emperor's light is getting stronger in the warp, and the Golden Throne is a very small anchor to reality, who known what would become of the Emperor's consciousness were he to come out of the throne.
Also, wouldn't an extreme form of worship turn the Emperor into a Slaneesh-type of entity? Not in the depravity, but in the emotions of all humans conjuring a terrible being into existence.
Would he become the toaster god of the skittari?
...well why not simply give the Emperor a text-to-speech machine?
"Stop sending grandpa your prayers, he's becoming too powerful."
Let's say that Gullyman is successful in "containing" the Emperor. Would this not have greater ramifications on the whole Imperium in the form of the curtailment of astropathy?
In the sense that the astropaths will no longer be able to be able to utilize the Emperor as a beacon.
Forgive me if I have gotten things wrong, the lore may well have changed since I properly played the game.
You're thinking of Navigators. Astropaths (and other Sanctioned Psykers) are soul-bound to the Emperor, taking a tiny shard of his soul into their own as a form of added protection against daemonic possession. Astropaths boost their power to send telepathic messages across lightyears of distance by working in groups called "choirs". They don't really use their connection to the Emperor for anything more than keeping warp predators away while sending and receiving messages.
Navigators, on the other hand, use their special type of warp-sight to see the beacon of the Astronomicon. The Astronomicon itself is a machine that originally functioned independently of the Emperor, simply by having 10000 psykers shackled to it, but like the Golden Throne, the City of Sight and the Imperial Webway Gate, it was damaged when Magnus tried to warn the Emperor about Horus's betrayal. Now it requires a power boost from the Emperor through the Golden Throne, and also burns out the psykers attached to it way faster than it used to. Whether this is due to the machine being damaged, or the second-hand psychic agony from their connection to the Golden Throne is not clear. Either way, this is where the "1000 souls sacrificed to the Emperor every day" comes from.
This also brings up an interesting possibility for the Emperor. I'm not sure if it is implied or outright stated that the 1000 psykers that are burnt out by the Astronomicon daily get their souls fused into the Emperor, helping to sustain his life force, but the further implication of this is that all psykers who are bound to the Emperor get their souls fused into his when they die. This would provide an interesting way for the Emperor to be a god, but also not; having his throne-bound soul become bigger and stronger over time with every Sanctioned Psyker over the past 10000 years adding to his power, while the "God-Emperor" forms independently in the warp from the combined mental power of quadrillions of fanatically faithful followers.
Navigators use the Astronomican as a beacon, Astropaths use telepathy for communication, and are made by soul binding them to the Emperor.
@@ARandomCogboi That doesn't really answer anything besides that I got some terminology wrong, something that I apologised for in advance.
Edit: what you said also doesn't make a whole heap of sense to me as the function appears to be in the name "astro" - the material universe and "path" - a furrowed way through something. Though I do now recall the people who did the job I initially referred to as Navigators but I also recall that they were definitely a part of the governmental branch (for lack of a better term) to which I was referring to.
Well according to the most recent lore he only has centuries to deal with the Throne and it's inevitable breaking down
GMan after anti warp knowledge could be as a counter to his father's ascension but I do not think that's the case. I think his thought pattern more mirrors the Emperor's original plan for humanity actually. Imagine being able to shut off the warps influence and power and giving humanity a chance to live in peace (in general terms) while the powers of the warp starve themselves out. That technology is key to doing such a thing, all he needs is a new location for humanity to gather and begin their exodus. It's his father's original plan 2.0
One possible scenario is the Emperor knows the Necrons have the tech to contain Chaos (The Black Pylons). I think part of Guillimans anger, frustration and confusion is the Emperor wanting him to make peace with the Eldar(Which we have already seen him do) and the Necron. He has been raised and lived his whole life in the ideal the the Xenos should be purged, but then he wakes up and fights his way through the galaxy only to right his father telling him to trust the Xenos. Wouldn't you be a little skeptical especially knowing how the Heresy happened?
No ? The Heresy was not instigated by Xenos. Chaos is not Xenos. Xenos are aliens. And most aliens are, if anything, much less susceptible to chaos than humans. Necrons are not technically alive and were sleeping.... Tyranids are null and were not around. Orcs are psychic but such stubborn and one dimensional beings that they have their own warp gods. And they are too obviously idiotic for anyone to listen. This leaves the Eldar. But the Eldar have learned through an eternity of pain how to stay away from chaos as best as possible for a psychic race. Way better than M30/M41 humanity. The Tau...i think were not even spacefaring in M30? Bottom line. Xenos may be a lot of things including sadistic murderous bastards but they really did not cause the Heresy.......
@@Zonkotron Never once said the Xenos caused the Heresy. Where did you get that?
Guilliman asks out loud about reviving The Emperor, and suddenly tons of alarms go off, and both the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus are racing to retrieve the first bowel movement Golden Chair Champ has produced in about 9k.
If you thought a newborn's first nappy was bad, 🤢
What if Big E returns as Warp God of Mankind due to an expanding galaxy tear combined with the golden throne failing, the astronomicon going out, and the eternity gate warp hole being ripped open once again, and the big kerfuffle of say 50k is Guilliman rejecting his now divine father and reforming the Imperium Secundus in the image that his father of old desired not this new Warp Emperor? Guilliman could be the "traitor" primarch who now embraces technological advancement and even xenos alliance while Lion El Johnson could be the "Loyalist" primarch who senses his father's rational and embraces faith on the innate level the Lion is known for becoming a true Dark Angel. This action alone upends the whole 40k setting as much as the shift from 30k to 40k does
I think guilliman knows more about the nature of Chaos than he lets on. The Emperor’s resurrection would make the Fall of Cadia look trivial with the warp rift it causes, and possibly allow the Dark Gods to freely walk into the material realm
And so begins the Heresy of Guilliman the Godless…
Rho, the Emperor isn't tied to the physical world by the throne......it's the throne that has separated him from the physical world. The Emperor, as the standing premise goes, may have been born in the warp, as all souls are, but he is as existed as a creature of the physical world virtually all of his existence, and is anathema to the warp as it currently exists. He is not a warp creature.
He's anathema to chaos, not the warp. The emperor is/was a psyker after all. I expect his worship will shape him into a god of order and that's why he's anathema.
@@the11382 I will give you, obviously, that he draws power from the warp as a psyker, but the warp has been thoroughly owned by chaos since the Aeldari gods were killed......60 million years ago. It's silly to pretend the two things aren't currently so intertwined that they aren't effectively the same thing. Additionally, the Emperor had to steal deep knowledge of the warp from Chaos in order to create the primarchs......a "Warp Creature" or a "Warp God" doesn't need to do that. Additionally, all his goals are in the physical world. Again, the Emperor has lived 99.99999% of his life in the physical life...like all other creatures of the physical world. None of those things describe a warp creature, or a warp god, or a soon to be warp god. They describe a god or soon to be god of the physical world. You build a Venn diagram and the things he has in common with the other "warp gods" are far outnumbered by the differences.
@@Dadecorban warp is not owned by chaos.
@@BloodyArchangelus No.....of course not. It's normal functioning has been entirely subverted by the chaos gods who are the dominant powers of the warp. A human soul enters the warp....anywhere and its immediately consumed. A Gellar field goes down anywhere in the warp and everyone gets killed, soul eaten, and tortured, but not that order. The very fabric of the warp is able to be manipulated by and convertible by the ruinous powers. The Emperor had to steal that knowledge from the chaos gods. But no, the warp is not owned by chaos. Except if you use the literal or common use of the word "owned". Or even most metaphoric uses of the word "owned". In fact, really, the only usage of the word "owned" which is not actually accurate to my point is that usage in which "Warp and Chaos are exact, perfect technical synonyms". Which would really be the most obscure usage.......and a "not all fallacy". I cede to your point.
Sounds similar to skull knights warnings to guts about cascas state of mind if she woke up. Maybe doesn’t want what he wants :D
The Black Library has already planned this out.
Magnus' soul will be pieced back together, and his redemption will depend on him uniting the shards of his father's psyche; and killing him...that he may be reborn to take up the mantle once more.
INB4.
Screenshot this for your 2030 videos down the line.
Love these videos. Always fun to speculate the lores future
Great video as always. Looking forward to next week's special.
Interesting video, personally I want to see how the king in yellow and his actions slot into the wider story of the Emp and humanity.
People tend to say the Nighthaunter is like Batman, but in reality Guilliman is Batman.
Then what is Konrad like, The Punisher plus Scarecrow?
@@grandmasterrevin5977 More serious version of Deadpool?
40k punisher sounds right
Nighthaunter is Vlad the Impaler in Batman themed armour. GW is real heavy on the historical references.
@@gama343 Oooo that's the most accurate
I’m pretty sure the Lion was told of Chaos. He’s the only one that makes sense. Or Corax.
I suspect it was #11, who used that knowledge to become Malice/Malal.
Corax becoming that demon form certainly gives more grounds for him to be told of the warp
It might have been Corax, I remember something about that in Deliverance Lost, it was when he first meets the Emperor and Corax says something about the warp leading to a discussion about it. (been ages since I read that though so might be remembering it wrong)
Lion (King of the Johnsons) would make sense, since he seems to be immune to Chaos corruption and was the only Primarch who's loyalty the Emperor never doubted for a second. He also grew up on a heavily warp-tainted planet, so he would already know at least that daemons exist. Hell, he spent his childhood turning down their offers of power while killing pseudo-chaos-spawn deathworld animals with his bare hands and eating their warp-mutated flesh raw.
Keep in mind, some of the Primarchs wouldn't need to be told about the warp, what with being powerful active psykers themselves. Corax, Magnus, Sanguinius and Jaghatai Khan all fall into this category. Maybe the Lion and Russ, though it could be argued that their commonly used psychic abilities were all done instinctively/subconsciously. Mortarion was certainly taught about sorcery, but his disdain for it prevented him from making any effort to comprehend the warp itself. Konrad Curze vehemently refused to learn about the warp because any chance at controlling his gifts would make him responsible for his actions. Vulcan had some latent pyrokinetic powers on top of being a perpetual, but most impressive is his likely connection to the Akashic Record, which would explain why he can casually build crazy exotic-tech things that even the Emperor has to put in real effort to match. Lorgar's powers didn't awaken until the Heresy kicked off, and if he was told about the warp he probably would have died of dehydration from the non-stop orgasm brought on by the thought of so many gods to worship. While Perturabo had some weird warp-sight going on, he clearly had trouble comprehending anything that wasn't purely adherent to classical, mathematical or digital logic in a way that could be represented in the physical universe (He can't understand Eldar tech, and he needed Magnus's help to learn non-euclidian geometry and the abstract math involved in calculations for warp-tech). Angron got them brain spikes, which seem to have ruined any chance he might have had at psychic powers/comprehension of the warp. Horus has shown that he likely has some latent talent as a logokine (being able to speak and understand any language while also being supernaturally persuasive) He also talked to some of his sons about the warp, warning them that it can get into anything and twist it if given the chance, but it seemed like he had about as much understanding of it as the average ship's captain. Fulgrim and Guilliman are the only ones who have never really shown any psychic abilities, other than Ferrus Manus, but he's fucking dead, so we don't really know.
@@gama343 Nice breakdown, I do remember Perturabo saying he always saw the Eye of Terror but didn't exactly know what it was, but at the same time Typhon already had knowledge of the warp and used it occasionally. With the Word Bearers we already know that the c*nts Erebus and Kor Phaeron knew about it lol, they were basically just waiting for Lorgar to jizz when he sent Argel Tal.
The Big E could've solved so many of the Heresy problems if he told his 'sons' about it, especially Magnus since he planned to have him use the Golden Throne!
The Emperor hates the gods from point A. And becoming the very thing he hated is just morbid.
It's the great irony of 40K. The crusading champion of humanity without gods is brought low, and worshipped as a god.
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Bringing the God-Emperor of Mankind physically as He is right now would create some eldrich abomination for sure. :/
I'll probably be dead before the Warhammer lore finishes 😂🤣👌
I think we all will.
I still think the Emperor is THE Chaos God, the reason he wants to eliminate the other Chaos Gods is because in their rise to power, his servants, humanity, has forgotten him. And so he wants to reclaim the empire he once had, before his younger brothers showed up and took it from him.
Given that they predate him, i find that to be rather unlikely.
This is dumb
My biggest concern would be what happens to the Black Templars if the Emperor does return. Will he disband or destroy them for their religious devotion to him as a God?
If it was the old Emperor, before the throne, he would have ordered them to stop worshiping him. If they did not, he would have disband them and possibly destroy them for their religious devotion.
Now, I am thinking he will be okay with it, on or off the throne.
Retroactive lore. Guilliman censored one of his marines prior to the heresy, because that marine DARED to assume they would have to fight against other Astartes. The plans against his brothers? That was stolen DIRECTLY from one of the DC animated universe bests, the Justice League, where someone finds Batman's plans to beat everyone else in the Justice League, just in case.
The starchild is the emperor's humanity before. The emperor finally removed them, when he was fighting Horus. Later on making him something he hated, what do you guys think?
Before that the emperor started pushing down his humanity making hard choices to his servants and some of his sons as well.
Certainly before that. It’s eluded to in Valdor Birth of the Imperium. In the epigraph transcript, the Emperor tells Valdor that the Emperor will become less than human, and more; but that he does not seek to become a god (the implication being it’s a real possibility). And again, when Valdor is talking with Malcador in Chapter 17, they speak of the Emperor’s human sentiments still ebbing; though it doesn’t seem to be a conscious choice - “As He predicted. All things have their price.”
Guilliman shouldn't stop the Emperor's ascenscion since it might give an advantage to the Emperium against all it's enemies especially the Tyrranids.
In this context "King In Yellow" becomes even more interesting.
I mean in the 40K universe things can be altered by belief and so if you have the god emperor that's been worshiped for thousands of years this version of the emperor that he doesn't want to be over time that mere worship of him will change who he is. So instead of a powerful being yes but an atheist at heart he really is becoming the God emperor of mankind. Exactly how the imperium is worshiping him.
Close to 4 billion psychers sacrficed and trillions of human prayers over a 10,000 year period would probably elevate me to Godhood, never mind the Emperor
I wonder if Guilliman would have any thoughts about Horus and his rebellion , what if he was using the wrong tools and instructed by the wrong teachers, but his heart was in the right place?
Noooooo nonono his heart was not in the right place from the moment he ordered purge of 1/3 of his own legion. His fall is kinda rushed anyway
I've got to wonder if this is according to plan for Emps. There's three reasons he has to be on that throne; to power a warp-lighthouse, to not let his mortal body die, and to keep his failed webway gate from swallowing Terra. If Guilliman brings those black pylons to Terra to attempt to keep his father from becoming a warp god, there's a real chance that final reason is solved and frees up a massive portion of Emp's power, perhaps enough for him to solve the other two himself.
Orks manipulate the probability just by imposing their beliefs on the warp (oversimplification, I know).
Eldars created a god through their uncontrolled emotions.
Humans had their most powerful psycher stuck in the warp, his spirit anchored to a dead body, and have spent 10 000 years feeding him with the belief that he is a god, while also living a life of fanaticism, despair, hatred.
I have been convinced for a long time that, based on the examples comming from other species, this can only lead to the emergence of a new god. Could he be a good god ? What kind of god do you expect to emerge from the faith and the emotions of the brutal Imperium ? He might see himself as a good guy, but that doesn't mean that he will be the good guy. Nurgle think he is good, comprehensive, and only want to help.
I think that Guilliman is slowly getting to the right conclusion, but thousands of years too late. Not that he was alive to discover it sooner.
I think that if nothing inflects the course of the story, the Emperor might become some kind of god of Despair and Dominance. A new player in the game of the gods.
I think that some kind of second Imperium Secundus might well become the last hope of humanity, sooner or later... What could they use to protect themself ? Well, the Tyranids seems to have been ignoring Warp as we know it before their arrival in the galaxy, and Necron have been hard working on blocking it. Both faction are increasing in power, this could be leading somewhere. At least, you can argue with a Necron Lord, so they are the most likely option. Another unknown factor are the eldars, with their new God of the Dead, but also their old Trickster God, and their vast knowledge of the warp.
This, or the "all mighty god-emperor" will create a new world from the ashes of this one, trying to protect it from the schemes of the other gods. Like an Age of Sigmar 40K... Please, everything but this last option.
I think you have the right conclusion about the woshipping, thoughts and desires are changing the emperor, as well as the sacrifices of the psychers. The sacrificing of souls to the Emperor, could have caused the fracture of his consciousness or all the consciousnesses he is absorbing is becoming one with him. Therefore he is becoming more like the Chaos gods.
Guilliman is asking the right questions and answering them correctly. He is putting the pieces together, but like you stated, "thousands of years too late." I am thinking the only hope Guilliman has to talk to the Necrons and Eldar to get the answers, especially the Necrons. The Necrons have knowledge of the Old Ones, their once enemy. It could be in their archives, they know what the Emperor is becoming, and how to solve that problem. Making him flesh and trying to get all the pieces of his consciousness, burried under several consciousnesses.
Great video. This is a really really good take.
Guilliman is the Batman of the warhammer 40k universe.
There is also that if his father is a god that he himself may be becoming a literal demi god through association.
This is why I think the Lion coming back will help him understand more. As I think the Lion was told more than the rest of the sons.
Guilliman met with his father and is worried about him becoming dethatched from humanity. The Emperor's soul and psyche is scattered and unfocused in most cases while he's collected enough power to openly challenge one of the gods of chaos. In that process he no longer really cares about individual humans or even humanity in general. What is stopping him from suddenly deciding that the best way to beat chaos is to snuff out all sentient life?
About Guilliman wanting to stop Emp's godhood... seems to be very likely. However, in the Great Work novel, we get a flashback to Cawl/Sadene's meeting with the Emperor ages ago. Emps tells Cawl to continue the work no matter what, even if he is branded a traitor, heretic etc. - the 1st 2 stages of Cawl great work are finished - Guilliman's ressurection and Primaris marines. The 3rd stage, according to Cawl himself, is to remove the immaterium from reality.
Now, the conversation between Cawl Inferior and Guilliman in Godblight, Guilliman's contingencies for cutting Emperor out and Cawl's new pet project, combined with Emperor's talk with Cawl way back when, could it be possible Emperor himself doesn't want to be a god? That he himself wants to return to flesh, that his godhood is just a temporal state untill shit gets done?
Is Guilliman really afraid? Or is it something more? The emperor was forced down this route what if the emperor implanted something in Guilliman to try to bring him back. The emperor had a disgust of faith and now he's forced to use that power because it's really all that's available to him. It the use whatever you have available senerio. For the first time the emperor has the means to truly act against chaos, his first plan didn't pan out but now there's a chance to defeat chaos and in that senerio you us what you've got. Now if the emperor were to return physically that would be a game changer. Also he's been on that throne for over an eon enduring pain for all that time and other things I can't imagine something like that not changing anyone, and being forced fed power for all that time I have no idea what that would do to someone who didn't want it not even an ultimate class human.
Here another question what happens when some mind is empowered an untold number of magnitudes? Their humanity to?
"Prayer is a form of coercion against a deity. "Do this for me or I'll stop believing in you.""
Leto II Atreides, eponymous "God-Emperor of Dune"
My theory is the Emperor knows "gods" in 40k are essentially elemental forces with massive will but no FREE will. The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped because, within 40k's metaphysics, being worshiped the way he has been since the rise of the Ecclesiarchy (read: since Lorgar won) would eventually turn him into a perfect tyrant and perfect savior, which would in turn force humanity to become entirely dependent on him.
This is the opposite of the evolution he wanted to facilitate.
I think there are two ways, I could wrong.
1.) The Emperor being empowered by taking the powers of thousands each day, absorbing their souls is crushing his consciousness. The souls are what is empowering the Emperor, and each consciousness is trying to take over, creating a fight. The Emeror still fighting, but all the souls are forming into a conscious and trying to bind with the Emperor's. It could have already happened, so he would not be the same person that went on the throne in the first place.
2.) How the Chaos gods were formed. It was stated that the gods were formed by thoughts, desires and woship. What if this is what is happening to the Emperor. He went in with a conscious of his own, but the religion, which he did not want has started to change him little by little. The Emperor's followers are changing him by their own thoughts, desires and their woship. He is getting a lot of power from all that, along with those sacrifices, but his mind is being altered by his cult's desires, thoughts and woship.
The Emperor wasn't an atheist. The Emperor wanted to deny worship in the Imperium because it opens pathways for Chaos to enter realspace. Nothing more, nothing less. The Emperor has always known of gods and doesn't pretend to believe they don't exist, or stop existing just because you deny their existence. He wanted to close the mortal channels, as well as the Warp (by sealing and utilizing the webway) so Chaos had no way to enter the galaxy anymore.
Also, only Slaanesh was formed by the actions of mortal beings. The other Chaos deities existed long before mortals walked any planet. So no, they aren't the subject to the imaginations of their worshippers. Khorne doesn't become what Angron thinks of him, for example. Khorne enslaves his followers to do his bidding, and it's the bidding he has always been about. The gods of the Warhammer universes are largely unchanging; even Tzeentch, ironically.
I don't believe they were always there. I think at one point they were birthed just like Slaanesh. It was through desires, thoughts and worship. Like the Eldar gods were brought into being. The only ones that I could come up with never being like that were the Sun gods of the Necrons. They were stated to be found in the material universe, but without bodies. It could be that they evolved into what they were, but just happened over time. The Old Ones were getting closer to the point of godhood, but were defeated prematurely. Who knows about the Old Ones that much.
I feel like maybe the reason the emperor was the man he was is because he had thousands of years being surrounded by humanity. Despite his power he was there from almost the beginning seeing triumphs, defeats, suffering, camaraderie and this shaped him into what he was. Despite being so elevated above humanity, he was still bound to them through the thousands of lives he lived among them. Now. Having only been in the warp, he could have lost touch with that. Sure he may possibly feel the belief of his worshippers, but he's lost the experience of actually being human. I think that's what guilliman may fear most. The raw power of the emperor unshackled from the restraint and conscience of his humanity.
A conscious answer. I like this mate, I feel the emperor is on such a scale we cannot comprehend not even the writers possibly can. But the emperor is only human and maybe some people are thinking to much into it. Being bound to them is a perfect line 👍🏼 he is certainly detached, more so than ever.
Emperor's going to be fine. Everything is fine. PLaying 3D checkers here... have some faith Wolf Lord. Have some faith.
Thank you for Upload :)
I think a factor is, that, of all the Emperor's children, Roboute is one of the best-placed to see the Emperor's megalomania for what it is. The Emperor of Mankind is not altruistic. He's justified all manner of horrors to fulfil his own agendas. And that revelation probably doesn't sit well with Roboute, especially if he has enough pieces of the puzzle to realise that, if the Emperor had have been more compassionate, the Horus Heresy would never have happened.
I'm thinking that if the Emperor would be resurrected, how might the faithful in the Ecclesiarchy react? Would they view this as their God made flesh again? I mean, we ARE dealing with a cult. And zealots are religious extremists of the first order. Could different factions turn on each other if the Emperor were to arise? Belief is a powerful thing, and it is a thing of absolutes. One persons god is another persons devil. The bottom line is: If the Emperor is resurrected, the chances of him being the same man who entered the throne is pretty slim, and Guilliman has every right and reason to be afraid. It is not born of understanding, but rather him acknowledging that absolute power corrupts. Just my thoughts, but maybe I'm overthinking it.
Ontop of the emperor becoming a god, he is also quite literally killing himself, what may emerge from his death could be something entirely different.
As for why Guillemin fears his father being a god is most likely because it completely goes against every single thing the Emperor had told his children, and had constantly denied in life. now that he is suddenly spewing hatred towards his own children, and even killing young humans for small victories...he is doing things the old Emperor, and Guillemin himself was told not to do much less except....Like Guillemin said, that corpse on a chair is no longer his father, and the way he is acting is no longer human, as the emperor of old would never seek to sacrifice the life of a little girl to get away with destroying Nurgles garden or any of the other gods domains or area's of control.
The thing about 40k is that the gods are literally nothing more than the very fabric of emotions and actions in themselves, Khorne is rage, Slaanesh is lust, Nurgle is death and plague, and Zeentch is well, hes Zeentch. The emperor is losing contact with his physical self by the day and as said the only thing keeping him from becoming a god is his physical body on Terra but even then his body is shot and he has been warring on behalf of humanity in the warp along with being powered through the belief and fervor of his followers for the past 10k years since the heresy making him albeit more powerful but closer to becoming a forbidden thing, a god. Along with that it goes against everything his father preached and would also prove Horus right in that the Emperor was after nothing more than idolization and worship which with the Emperors current state is a pretty understandable worry if he is simply able to do whatever he wants whenever he wants through the body of anyone. The Emperor is teetering on a cliff of whether or not he is or isnt a god and if things dont change he will eventually become a chaos god whether he likes it or not and even then the fact that there is no humanity left in him means that his will to destroy chaos will just be powered further by his followers all across the millions of planets inhabited by the imperium which in the long run could mean absolute disaster and the problem has to be remedied before it can even get to that point or humanity will be screwed because there will literally be a single chaos god and I say that because the Emperor now losing his humanity will seek out and destroy anything that can lead the possible creation of another God so anything that happens within the imperium like war or sex would be shut down in an instant through simple mind fuckery from a God Emperor which in turn means humanity would go bye bye.
Guilliman the Bruce Wayne/ Batman Primarch of 40k had plans on how to defeat his brothers like Batman against the JLA.
Hey Wolf Lord Rho, when you said in the video "such as Malcador predicted" what exactly are you referring to? Can I have a source? Thanks.
it's imppossible for someone to go through the tramma of the heresy and then 10k more years of tramma and not change. The question is is he going to be sane if brought back.
guilliman meets the silent king.
its like hi? and the other one would react .......
My understanding of who the emporer was, is that he was a zealot for lack of a better word. The man believed that not only was there no god, but that a belief in any sort of divine would only lead to a weaker people and worse society. This is why there is a man who has special permission to be a Christian. He challenged the emporer and held his own in debate as to how the belief was beneficial.
If Gilliman really does value the emporer as a person, then it's likely that he would want to stop this apotheosis on the grounds that he doesn't want his father to betray himself. After all, what could be a greater hell for a man who believed so strongly in faith in a god leading civilizations to nothing but ruin, than to become that god.
A similar possibility for Guilliman is that he'll use Tau technology to replace warp travel with slower but warp free Tau ftl drives. No need for a golden throne psychic beacon or navigators. Even Tau soldiers would make for the ideal, warp free force to take the fight in to they eye of terror and directly to the door of Chaos gods themselves. Neurons too. Between the technology and inherent characteristics of the Tau and the Necrons Guilliman would have everything he needs to cut the warp and psychers out of the imperium ENTIRELY, from top to bottom.
The Tau do use the warp, they travel in short hops like humanity did before they discovered the navigator gene.
Guilliman knows the differences between the Emperor of Mankind, and the God-Emperor of Mankind. The man, though brutal, was ever present as a man, and could feel and have emotions. The God Emperor sees the universe as a chess board like the Chaos Gods, and will do as is necessary to "win" which we all know, is never going to happen not because he doesn't have the power, but because there is no end to the Great Game. New pieces will rise up, and claim new spaces. Guilliman may not understand the Immaterium, but he is the smartest of all the Primarchs, period. It doesn't take a genius to see that the Chaos Gods have been playing a game, and if the God Emperor joins in, it will be just as bad, if not worse, than the Chaos Gods.
My personal theory is that, the Emperor was insanely powerful way before his death. He's always been set apart from humanity because of this, hence his friendship with Malcador the Sigilite. With this in mind, I think there's two paths, which is related separately to the Star Child theory, and Guilliman's wish for resurrection.
However before going into those theories, the key theory I have that affects the Emperor both ways is as such: the Godhood assertion that he denies is most likely true. He is the embodiment, if you will, of humanity's ferocity, strength of will, and indomitable spirit. However, due to Lorgar's meddling and the rise of the Ecclesiarchy have focused humanity's belief into a psychic influence upon the Emperor, thus forcing him to become a God against his wishes. My support for this is the Tau's pseudo Greater Good Chaos God.
If he somehow fuses with the Star Child, he could possibly retain his humanity, and return to his old self, possibly. But he still is influenced by the Ecclesiarchy's psychic resonance of belief, thus could influence his behavior going forward.
If Guilliman's resurrection goes according to plan, he could return to life, but worse. Leading from the front, devouring all world's and whatever beings stand in his path. If this particular guess is not quite accurate, I believe we could see a human version of a necron, driving humanity forward into Neverending war.
Well said pal
Where you get all this lore? I cant find on wiki or somewhere any continuation of the story.
We can also think that the Emperor right now isn't the same as he was before being enthroned and then being injected with unmeasurable amounts of power from the Imperium's subjects through (and you won't believe this) the Infinite and the Divine.
[Spoilers]
There is a part in the book where Orikan is capable of ascending into a C'tan-like being, hungering for stars while maintaining a singular (yet very distantly perceived) objective (which at the time was to fight the shard of the Deceiver). At that time, Orikan was callous and disdainful towards those who were unascended, like a person who ignores ants that walk beneath them simply because he can't notice them unless they voluntarily look down.
I draw the parallel by the following points:
>The massive amounts of power injected into them (though through different means).
>The massive amounts of power they can output as a result.
>Their disdain/indifference towards those beneath them. The difference with this point however, is the fact that sometimes, to quote "The Emperor Protects". Saint Celestine, among others, were granted some of his power in exchange of their faith,devotion or a different benefit. Thus, I can explain the Emperor's interferences with the purpose of gaining more fervour/faith from the humans of the Imperium like the living saints/miracles and the immediate and obvious gain of possessing Guilliman to beat Mortarion.
>The singular minded objective. Why would he need more fervour/faith from followers?, they give him power as we've seen thus far. Why does he need power? To- ( _heh_ ) to kill Chaos of course. Whether or not this was the way he intended to do so...I'm not sure if it is. Simply because it's a more straightforward and blunt method than the seemingly crafty methodology and mindset he had before his enthronement.
Time is running out for those who have read the vaults of terra books..
Maybe I misunderstood perpetuals and how they work. But if they disconnected him from the golden throne wouldn't he die and come back? I seem to remember that you can't actually kill perpetuals because they always come back. Edit just found this excerpt from the 40k wiki that seems to prove my theory "It is this capability that is responsible for their name. Perpetuals have been known to survive dismemberment, suffocation, decapitation and even complete disintegration by directed energy assaults or atmospheric reentry, their bodies always regenerating and even bringing them back to life after clinical death." So if Robot Girlyman did actually kill the big E it would actually be doing him a favour as it would allow him to come back. I seem to remember reading somewhere once, that the golden throne is somehow stopping big E from regenerating.
Wild Idea here, what if Age of Sigmar's - Sigmar is just the spiritual journey of the god emperor through the warp where it is all in the end just a symbolic version of the journey in a fantastical clash of armies type of manner?
What if the emperor says that imperium is wrong, renounces his godhood, terminates most space marines and inquisition as being fanatical brutes and tells them to make peace with eldar?
this is something most people in the imperium wouldn't want, but emperor would
The Emperor only showed Gilliman what he wanted to see. Gilliman viewed *himself* as nothing more than a tool of The Emperor, so The Emperor confirmed that for him. Gilliman feared The Emperor has become a god, so The Emperor showed himself as a god. How it is possible for this supposed Machiavellian 5-d chess character like Gilliman to be so openly and obviously manipulated is a staggering plot hole. They can still fill it with a "haha! I tricked the emperor into thinking I thought this way to make him do this certain thing but I in fact thought an other way with my hyper intelligence Smurf powers so that I, Cato Sic-Roboute Guilliman, could win the day and save my father from the depths of Choas!" or some such other Ultramar tripe.
What books are actually expanding the lore at this point ? ive read the two Dark Imperium books. A reading order like Horus heresy series would be ideal.
This is GUILLIMAN "The Batman" of 40K
What if the emperor got a body like the necrons, a fate worse than death