Only one person in the world has enough experience using every single character to be able to make the most valid and objective Difficulty Tier List Knee
So true, especially online, people take the advantage of 3-4 bars connection and do sweep full combos like hell even they know it's a risky move, but they will spam it. Lili, anna,asuka,ling, katarina,bryan, lucky,feng, hwo, eddy, bear...etc. I often see Lili, anna,asuka,ling, katarina,bryan and lucky players do 1or2 jabs, then go for a full combo sweep, just pure scrubness.
Lucky777Seven it’s hilarious how many comments there are on this video about people defending their characters. I think sometimes people forget most of the stuff mainman does is just his opinion and people don’t have to agree with it.
Yes it is his opinion, but the thing is, that his opinion was kinda stupid in this video. Dont get me wrong, i like TMM, but his criteria for every character was different, which makes the tierlist simply a mess and nonsense. I hoped for a more informative video with reasonable explanation, but got pretty much dissapointed. :/
Satoshi He does this with most tier list doesn't he?😂 He steer's away from the reason he's making it I notice but I think he knows what he does sometimes and he just likes upsetting people lol
@@BuffLars Also, I see no problem in playing an easier character: it's a matter of having fun, but people see it like a matter of ego and pride instead. Bah
MainMan: HWo is hard u can flamingo spam but u must learn him and this is hard. Also MainMan: Lei and Yoshi are not that hard u have bullshit . But wait i must Learn Hwo to unlock his bullshit so i must learn yoshi and Lei stances too to unlock bullshit do I ? (100 moves and 10 stances he say EASY to learn)
@@franklestk3038 it's about consistency dude. If someone claims a particular character is difficult for xyz reason than cool. He may or may not be right but he should apply the same logic to other characters too. Not being consistent is the issue here.
@@Luminethereploid I see people say the things you stated about Lei, but about Yoshimitsu. About him having cheesy strings, good evasion, abusable gimmicks, and the infamous statement "You're not playing Tekken, you're playing X character". And yet people seem to agree with TMM that he requires above average skill. But then you have people agreeing with the TMM with him putting Noctis and Lei around the same ease of use. It makes no damn sense! I'm sorry but you cannot convince me that Lei and Eliza are within the Top 10 easiest characters to play in Tekken 7.
@@Wizard_Lizard_ yoshimitsu its about being creative, controlling distances and u cant get all ur tools at any stances like does lei. Lei is about landing all the different shit u can and he will move alone and eliza about the fcking dark wave. the easiest of these 3 is obv eliza.
Kaz needs a poke. I think if you made his DF1 i14 it can open up a bit more options and it won't make him unfair. At i15 it's practically useless in neutral. Let's be honest some of the more modern or T7 abomination characters have way too many good tools. Giving Kaz 1 poke won't break the game or ruin his identity.
@@MaskedGuyCh Lee deserves to be up there, his most damaging combos require a lot of execution and even then the damage is minimal compared to every other character.
Masked Guy It takes a butt load to do work with Lee. He doesn’t have as many gimmicks as the other two so you have to put in more effort with him. The other two are tricky af tho
@@hackingenious7 You can do combos that don't require much execution and still do well with the character. B2 combos are no longer needed for Lee to do well. And Lee has one of the easiest, most damaging wall combos in the game.
Well if your fighting a button mashing Lei player and a button mashing Kazuya player, the Kazuya player will be a lot easier to deal with than the button mashing Lei player. FACT
I’m not even a Lei or Eliza main but they are wayyy harder to play than what you put them at smh. Eliza requires a lot of execution and her inputs are similar to akuma
I remember cheesing with Raven back when I was playing Tekken 5 in the PS2, I just keep on tapping forward while I mash 1 2 everytime to finish Jinpachi in Story. I learned a few teleport moves and that just made it a lot more fun. I might want to buy a memory card and plug back my PS2 again, I miss playing Midnight Club 2 and Tekken 5.
*Dude hardness is different for each character* kazuya/ geese are hard for their execution Yoshi / gigas coz they don't have good tools and *TheMainManSWE* says *Lei isn't hard or average cuz the opponent doesn't know about his moves or stances* This sounds like bullshit. He is average if not hard bcoz of a sophisticated game plan with terrible frames and bad fundamentals and bad range. A lei player has to think like 3 to 4 steps ahead of a normal tekken character.not easy to do in a ranked match. MainMan has not mained lei and xiaoyu(sophisticated characters) hence he doesn't know.....but mained Yoshi recently so he knows about him and places him above average. In short characters that he has mained are at their proper places in this tierlist unlike the the characters he has not mained. Hell even knee had problems with getting his lei to tgp. it took more time for him compared to other characters and his win percentage with lei is the least.
I don’t agree with some of these. You should’ve have explained whether or not the character is difficult to pick up and play or difficult to play with at a high level. For example, Eliza isn’t an easy character considering that she is as weak as Gigas is and requires good execution just like the other 2D characters.
Mainman's tier list it's like. All the Characters I like and use, put them to difficult and all the Characters I dislike and don't use put them to easy or the dumpster. TMM logic 2019.
So Josie, Noctis, Asuka, Claudio, Leo, Kuma, Negan aren’t easy to play? Those characters have no execution. Master raven, Paul, Marduk, Law, Feng, those require a decent amount of execution to play at a high level. He doesn’t even fucking play Hwoarang, King, Yoshi, Akuma, Julia, or Lee. What sort of biased would he have towards those characters? Devil Jin could be a bit lower, he’s certainly easier than Heihachi but besides that this list is pretty accurate.
@@darknezzpwnz He plays with hwoarang, lee , king but not right now. With yoshi he played couple of streams ago. This is no one near accurate. Lei is easier than law or claudio yeah. That's bullshit. He puts this characters not objectively in this tier list.
GHOSTRIDER 1994 just because he played the character once or twice doesn’t mean he’s maining that character and is completely in love with that characters play style. You can apply that logic to like every character on the fucking roster except for maybe Bob and Alisa because he’s never played them. So no your reasoning doesn’t make any sense. He’s played almost every character at least once. So he must just bias towards every character right? “This list is no where near accurate” just because Lei is down at the bottom? I don’t agree with it either but everything else is pretty accurate. Wtf are you talking about? Found the Lei main lol
thats funny sometimes i mess up throwing dark waves but then do the hard super combo with like 4 instant dks and dark wave dosent do anything unless you use meter they changed the ex moonglide input but i was fine with it the way it was
Tbh i play most of the "top hard" chars im on mighty ruler on them but I suck at playing eliza and doing her combos. She ain't that easy imo. Kazuya can also spam hellsweep in high rank I think mainmans tier list is kinda irrelevant at this point.
i can agree with you when it comes to high damage combos with Eliza,you need execution to do them BUT this tier list is about how hard and complicated the char is to play overall and Eliza wins easy on that due the fact that people dont know how to deal with her.
@@r4yzzzz yeah that might be true, no one really knows how to play against her. But imo thats not how someone should be rated in a tier list. Its not the characters fault that no one knows her. Play against her 20 times or lab her for 40 min and the character is completely useless. I dont like eliza that much either but that's a fact imo
Grasuke Kun I’ll have to disagree with you on this one. A characters pick rate should always come into play on a tier list because that lack of knowledge can allow you to get away with cheesy and gimmicky stuff that people won’t know how to deal with. This also comes into play when you think about all the other characters that are commonly played. You can either lab this one character that no one plays that you might lose a match to once in a hundred matches or you could lab this character that you seemingly fight every other match or so.
@@illyrianeagle9901 do you not know they were putting 2d characters in the game as a test to see how balancing would go for Tekken x Street Fighter? They needed her, they needed Akuma and they needed Geese. These things not only pulled in other fans and more sales it let them have more experience with turning 2D characters into a 3D one.
@@truebatman9421 *Ah Haha* I hope you are being sarcastic, cuz the Heihachi part cracked me up. But if you are serious... Calm your tits babe, its just a list 😑
if you are correct, then i think he was traumatized to the point where while everyone knows how to beat Lei, TMM freezes up and so he still has this huge misconception. Movelist, stances, and memorization? Has no one told him how to beat Lei yet? Knee has 70%+ win rate on all characters at Tekken God Prime fighting against Koreans, and Knee to this day still says Lei is his worst character. *Yet ironically Knee can probably beat TMM with only Lei neutral moves.* Assuming you've learned all the characters, Lei is in fact the harder one to use, with Knee as a great example of this.
So Lei is many tiers easier than gigas? This doesn't really make sense to me, i play both of those characters and nothing you have to do as gigas is harder than Lei's Magic 4 combo, or punishing -12 moves with the fn*4 string.
Jostein Ruen I was JUST about to comment about him. Lei is one of the most difficult characters to learn in the game. So many moves, and stances, properties of all the different stances, etc. Not to mention his stubby range makes it difficult as well, there’s no way he’s down there with Josie and Asuka
Mainman dedicated about 5 minutes of his video to explain his reasoning. His reasoning makes sense, but that doesn’t mean you necessarily have to agree with it. At the end of the day this tier list is an opinionated one.
His reasoning actually made no sense. It was along the lines of he’s difficult but it’s also difficult for the opponent. Literallly he admitted he was difficult but because he has a problem fighting him he put him down there among easy characters
@@bolahan Exactly. That's pretty much what he did for a lot of characters. He finds a character difficult or obnoxious to fight against? Well, then that automatically makes them easy to play.
Usually characters with huge movelists have dogshit moves that are designed to crush everything. To play against Lei and his stances you need to play anti-Lei, because he dodges so much just by attacking. If you have a move list full of unsafe, non crushing moves, yeah the character is going to be hard. A move list full of mixups that avoid getting hit is not hard to play, it's just hard to memorize.
If this tier list is supposedly based on the difficulty of learning a character, then Lei Wulong Should be on the top of the list. TMM keeps switching his argument from the learning curve of the character to playing against the character.
No, this list is based on how is difficult to play effectively the character, not to learn him Lei in Lower and intermediate level is easy as fuck, he has very fast and strong low, in higher level maybe become difficult but he has this fucking tools advantage against almost the characters.
I wish you had put Eliza in the dumpster, for two reasons: because that's where she belongs and because I feel like you don't really know much about her. She's about as strong as Gigas, but actually requires execution to do everything even at the lowest level of play. You mentioned the divekick spam at the wall, but getting perfect instant divekicks every time is not an easy task at all, and the terrible range of that move makes it almost worthless whenever you are not playing at range 0. I really wish you gave a closer look at her to see what's going on with her movelist and her frames, and then you'd problably realize what a nightmare being an Eliza player is.
The explanation about Lei invalidated the whole list, the moment you pick up a char and have to "lab" just to get started already proves the difficulty behind said character. Just by watching someone play Kazumi or Jack for example, you can tell their key moves and "copy" their playstyle. And TMM forgot to define what type of difficulty he meant, like: Difficult to pick up and play, difficult to win(with or against), Hard against good players, etc.
Seems weird to make a tier list for players who are getting blasted by random strings to begin with. Like of course Lei is OP if you just keep pushing buttons in the middle of his strings.
Strongly disagree with Eliza and Lei being easy, and the reason doesn't make sense IMO. They still require a lot of execution, especially Eliza. The hate for Alisa is getting old too. She's a very fundamental character, so I'd put her above average in terms of difficulty.
Also, Lee is not that much harder than Shaheen, they are both fundamental characters, and they both rely on slide to open up their opponents. In fact, Lee's slide is better, since it doesn't transition into stance, so getup 3 is 100% guaranteed after the slide.
When I first started playing tekken I had a feel for the characters and Alisa was one of the most brain dead easy ones, so i used her a lot until I upgraded to Jin/Kazuya/hwoarang/Steve/Lee. Basically the big boy leagues. Alisa is hard if you're slow
This. No idea why people hate Alisa, her "gimmicks" are very easy to deal with and in the end she is just a fundamental poke character with rushdown stance. Also absolutely no idea why Eliza this low
That tier list is a nonsense. I highly respect TheMainMan's opinion but his point of view is binary and that doesn't work. He tries to explain that we need to see characters as we defend ourselves, like they are our opponents. But the tier list doesn't follow such pattern. You need to make a character difficulty tier list offensively (you play the character), so that would be a standard tier list, and defensively (you're against the character). Fighting against a Katarina is not that easy. She's easy to play and is not so complex but she's very good so defensively she can be hard. Eliza is absolutely NOT an easy character. At high levels (yes, not pro, he said it,) you can't just dive kick. Sorry, no. Instant dive kick requires very good execution and she's unsafe as hell. She's not easy at all. It would go the same way with other characters: - Xiaoyu easier than Shaheen? What?! Defensively and offensively, Xiaoyu is way more difficult to handle than Shaheen. - Lei is not easy. TMM's basically saying that if you do mess with Lei, you win easily because he's complex with his stances. COME ON. - Anna is not that easy defensively and offensively. Since she is so unsafe, you get easily beaten in medium levels if you're not careful. - Bryan is high? WHY? Bryan is designed for beginners the same way Asuka would be.
Yeah, I feel like he didn't put any thought into like half of the cast in the tier list, and he is just assuming that gimmicky characters are all easy. And he is generalising too much, not looking into any of the characters that deeply.
@@krishbhalla4789 It's very hard to know all the aspects of each character since they are like 45 in Tekken 7. But I agree with you. It needs more knowledge of each character and a more specific tier list name.
@@TristanLaurens Bryan's tools are far more difficult and fundamentals based than Hwos are, and I really like both of them. Sorry, but I you think using Bryan's super whiff punish based game plan is easy to use when you need to master kbd on an character with backsway is a beginner character, you don't know what you're talking about. He doesn't have standard tekken tools at all, his punishment sucks, his plus moves are slow, his cheese moves stop working at around yellow ranks, and it's incredibly difficult to use counterhit tools against a patient opponent. He's not for beginners, and he's not even easier than hwo.
Eliza is honestly one of the most difficult character of the game (maybe not for the complexity of the game plan like hwoarang or steeve, but her execution and input needed are just crazy)
you can literally reach the mid high tiers of ranked by spamming her dive kick. sure at higher ranks she struggles and you need to learn how to execute her other moves. IMO she should be next to xiaoyu.
Varghest dude when lei came out and tmm mained him he said lei is hard and few weeks ago he got his ass beated by a really good lei player from Germany and that's why I think he is now saying lei is easy. I mean how does the opponent not knowing how to defend make him easy SMH. He just hates lei coz he doesn't wanna lab him(even though he's been there since tekken 2) and he loses to lei players so he just try to defend himself by roasting lei players.
Lol he often just randomly changes his opinions without any acknowledgement whatsoever. In the early days of Tekken 7, he said Akuma was extremely difficult. Then, after losing to Akuma players online, he called him cheesy and said he isn't difficult. Now, he once again says he's very difficult.
Having a lot of moves doesn't make a character easy to play, especially if 90% of your moves aren't useful - not to say bad - or very situational. Sure, a laggy Lei spamming razor rush and d/b+4, 4 can be very annoying (like every laggy opponent), but he is without doubt one of the worst characters in the game and one of the hardest characters to play. I hate Eliza but she is surely not easy to play. Why is she supposed to be easy while Akuma and Geese are difficult? Last but not least, the bears are not easy to play and are not recommendable for less experienced players. Even having them in the same difficulty tier as Noctis is just ridiculuos. Just imagine TMM picking up Kuma and reaching TGP rank in no time like he did with Noctis. Good luck with that
Anna is not that easy I think... She has cheese but she is so bad at punishing, it's actually hard to fight spammers at low level so she forces you to be good at blocking since you're not punishing most of the enemy cheese.... it's frustrating how even if you're learning fundamentals, it's still so tough to make enemies respect your defense lol She's about equal as Xiaoyu or Claudio I think... especially the latter with their similar slight requirement on fundamentals. I'm a low level Anna player lol
Fate/ Mafumafu Xiaoyu has pretty good punishers imo. Her 1 D2 is a 10f punish which leaves her in backturned if you like, her F1+2 is a mid 12f punish with good range, so it probably hits everything that's - 12 even with a weird hit box with decent damage, it also wallsplats. Her DF1 and B1 is perfect to stop spam, her AoP crushes like 90% of the moves in the game. Her B4 4 is a very strong 13/14f punish which is mid high, safe, and gives a wallsplat with very good hit box. Anna and Xiaoyu aren't comparable in my opinion
@@sewanendonliraidn2007 ah I was comparing them not in the punishment department but in just in how long it feels like to learn the characters. I mained Xiaoyu before T7 so I know she takes time to learn but you can totally get by with just a few moves. Anna however also can get by with a few moves but she needs good defense on top of it to break out of lower ranks so it feels like she's harder than Xiaoyu since with Xiao, you're mostly really just trying to figure out how to master her offense while Anna is about how to be good at defending against over 30 characters. And defense is hard so it feels like she's harder than Xiao since enemies can respect Xiao's defense when you're good at it but not really with Anna.
Anna’s punishment isn’t bad outside of no i15 launcher, well she does but it’s hard ofc. Her whiff punisher is decent , b22 is insane for an i13. The only issue is her WS imo
16:50 *LEI* : Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue. You were sayin' something about "best intentions"? What's the matter? Oh, y-you were finished? Oh, well allow me to retort! _[Lei looks pretty upset]_
Some people dont realize execution isn't the only thing that determines difficulty. What your game plan is and how easy it is for your character to implement it goes a long way.
Nobody agrees with his list. You can see that TMM did this Tier List to trigger certain people. But i agree with the dumpster characters, especially Bob is trash and easy win.
IMO MainMan calls lei easy to defend his losses against one of the best lei players in the EU he lost many matches to alltimeszzz a few weeks ago. He fails to see that it was the lei player's skill due to which he lost
Tbh people get to uppity about character difficulty, just pick up who you think is cool or enjoyable to play with Proud Claudio and Dragunov main, unashamedly.
Lei is a very complex character. You can get away with a lot playing with him, but knowing what are you is totally different. I liked him better on Tekken 3, but I did missed him initially in Tekken 7. Now Lee is a character that I picked quite easily in Tekken 2. I would never imagine to see him as a hard tier
Lei : has like ten different stances and approximately 150 move sets under his execution. Main man : puts him below Law and Eddie as well as Gigas whom can make any five year old look like a God tier level pro maniac just by button matching his/her way to success. Hmmm excellent choice. I absolutely dig it
Idk, he picks up the character in term of difficulty based on all ranks. Term of difficulty should be with the criteria of how hard it is to execute combos with, the amount of tools they posses and the amount of dmg they can output during aerials, pokes, wall combos. So basically speaking I put kazuya high only because his combos are straight forward and they come only out of counter hit and electric, even then mastering his high dmg combos you need to learn how to micro dash, wave dash, wave dash into while risings, good defence /whiff punish. All this makes for me when I tried kazuya hard af. Jin which I mostly play he is also difficult but not remotely close to kazuya. Jin has stances to extend combos, has electric, df2 that also aerial, hop kick, while rising 2, hell sweep, db4 during counter hit, great poking tools, great mix up tools. So based on that I would say some characters in this list for me atleast are kinda wrong judged. For example Eliza has cancels, total different movement set up compared our generic tekken character, without meter has an avarage dmg potential, hard execution so it's not for any player to pick her up. Cause when you say "easy" for a character, it means he can perform combos without any execution and smashing 1 button.
Lol this list feels very half assed. Any character he doesn´t do well against is 'cheap' and easy yet clearly easier characters are above them?? He puts all the male characters he knows how to play higher and basically doesn't care about the rest (RIP Bob mains lol). Why is Paul so high up in this list? QCF inputs are not hard at all. Maybe if you started Tekken yesterday sure, but after two seconds a QC input is just as easy as a F,F input. Paul is stupid easy when it comes to execution gameplan and damage. I don't play Xiaoyu but anyone can tell that character is not one you can just pick up and play. Just because she's complicated and people have a hard time with the matchup doesn't mean she's by any means an 'easy' character. Idk it ain't that deep I just think this list doesn´t follow one set series of criteria and each character is being individually judged on a variety of different things thus making this list moot.
Hey TMM, you proved that Noctis was easy to play. Even flew thru the ranks to TGP in no time. If Lei is as easy as you say he is, would it be too much to ask for you to do the same with Lei?
I think you undervalue Yoshi a little too much, MainMan. In a game where the essentials are "Can a character poke and punish well?" Yoshi falls rather short. While he does possess good standing punishment, he is greatly hindered by the following things; he has terrible WS punishment until i15. His pokes aren't very good as they are quite minus, and they lack any great ability to reliably fish for counter hits. And while someone like Jin or Hei have the luxury of being able to use some of their punishes as pokes at times, (the most common example being Hei's df/1, 2) Yoshi cannot do that when you go against opponents slightly familiar with the matchup -- his df/1, 4 is -14 on block, his b+2, 2 is not only duckable but can be blocked and punished (though that is character specific). His stance mixups aren't particularly scary either, Kin provides little incentive to duck (like Yoshi himself) as the low is i25 and a lot of his other options are MUCH faster. Dragonfly is likely scarier, yet ducking blows up a lot of his options, and if you're feeling really brave doing a sidestep is even better. His scariest non retaliatory mixup is his NSS FC mixup. But even with such hindrances, I've seen you handwave all this and go "Yeah, but Yoshi can bullshit!" without ever really going into detail what exactly is bullshit. So, I can only speculate, but I know you have big problems with flash and sword sweep. If you truly do have problems with those moves then may I ask, if a -15 on block/whiff parry and a seeable i25 unblockable low with poor range (and believe me it's easier to backdash to avoid this than to sidewalk a hellsweep) is "bullshit" what am I meant to call something like Jin's parry which is nigh on impossible to whiff punish; what am I to call the hellsweep? What am I to call Kaz's d/f 2 only being -12? Some other "bullshit" you may be referring to are some of his retaliatory mixups, such as his wakeup setups, but when you break it down it's not really bullshit. For retaliatory mixups lie in the hands of the opponent, not Yoshi. Meaning Yoshi has to make hard reads about the common tendencies of his opponent like how he wakes up. So, if you find yourself rolling only to be picked up by the sweep, ultimately you only have yourself to blame, because you were either mindlessly pushing buttons, or you decided to roll and the Yoshi player read that. I also think your appreciation of Anna is undervalued at higher levels of play, but ultimately opinions are opinions. And if there is one thing you hit the nail on the head on it is that as a Yoshi main I do spend more time in the lab than playing the game!
Well said, people always think yoshi is this bs character that you pick up and start to slaughter players with mixups. Thats until you actually pick up the character and try it. Yoshi is vastly different from those mix up/string characters like lei, xiayou etc. Those characters have pretty strong fundamentals/pokes aside from flowcharts. Yoshi literaly has herrendous fundamentals. With yoshi there is no option. You have to do one thing, be very experienced with the character to know what to use when at what stance, when to move, when to troll and most importantly forget framedata and play instinctively. Thats right instictively predict your opponent and try to catch them on things. Good thing is TMM is going for all tekken god prime. He thinks jin, gigas etc are difficult. Watch when the struggle when he gets to yoshi.
*Sees Alisa being put into the "dumpster"* TMM: You can't exit the dumpster Me: *Motivation and self esteem falls below zero, despite also trying to play with Jin and Devil Jin*
18:05 , i have been recently trying to get into tekken and your channel has been extremly helpful however your analogies at some points are just to funny
Dragon cannon at the wall ds cancels and has the most dropped combo in the game. Online law is different tho cause you can just run laws game cause of 3bars.
Hey completely noob here, i tried playing kazuya and jin yesterday, but for me its sooo sooo hard to play jin because i cant get his combo with all those stance consistenly, while i can pretty much play kazuya. Maybe because im using a pad, but for me jin is so hard
@@iqbaalmuhmd Stances in combos just become another input, try not to put thought into the actual stance itself. Great thing about Jin is he is very flexible with his combos, there's almost always an alternative to any combo whilst still hitting just as hard in damage
Having mained at one point or another Asuka, Leo and Josie I wouldn't put them in the same level. Asuka is much easier than Leo who is much easier than Josie. They are all below average, but Josie's microdash combos and some of her rather tight minicombos make her tricky to make the best use of. I would put her just under Drag. Drag has the f3,cdc combos and wr2 but otherwise feels pretty close to Josie.
armour king also feels much harder to pick up than king, but that's beginners perspective here I don't know the baseline for this list, beginner, intermediate, expert or pro
@@abirneji I had WAY more success with picking up Armor King compared to King, honestly, but maybe it's just because the former fits into my style more
Agreed about Josie. I'm a new Tekken player and I'm learning her (she is my main) but she isn't easy to make the best use of. And you can't really spam with her. Gotta mix it up to make the best use of her. She requires some serious thinking strategy-wise. Isn't really that straight forward I would say. Really fun character tho! :)
@@breadtk I felt the same. He really hates the character lol. Josie is far from Katerina and the like. She isn't a cheap character. She requires some thinking when play her and execution as well.
Hard to learn? Hard to execute? Hard to win with? Hard to gameplan? It seems like TMMs applying a lot of different standards here. I agree with more than half of it, but that Lei placement calls the whole thing into question. Then again, I know nothing.
Yeah exactly. I was thinking the same. His tier list is all over the place because he applies different criteria to different characters. He either needs to make 4 tier lists for each of these criteria, or choose one and then go from there. I generally agree with what he said but the list is still not very accurate because it's too chaotic
@@FlyingFoxDK1 no i think he means Ling is harder due to more moves to remember and use in right time, but Kazuya only have a bunch of tools, that makes him quite predictable and without a solid basis on movement you can't use them effectively.
I agree, I'm a feng main and hes the same way, this list shouldn't only be as how you fight against the character but the learning curve of each one and the work u put into getting a victory
I'd also put Bryan WAY lower. There's no way that playing Bryan is comparable to playing Lee, Akuma, or even Hwoarang. The problem is, what kind of difficulty are we talking here? Difficult to play (Lee, Lei, Akuma, Steve), difficult to defend against, (good Hwoarangs, good Ninas, good Steves, Xiaoyu, Eddy at low to medium level), or difficult to succeed with against higher levels of play? (Bryan, Bears, Eddy, Anna)
It's difficulty to win with, mainly(although TMM is a bit inconsistent with that). Execution seems to come second. Because it's hard to do one or two things with a character doesn't mean they're hard to win with overall.
carlomagneto Taunt stuff in general is hard. I‘m a trash ass Bryan player and opening people up can be hard as shit sometimes. I usually try to stay mid range and poke away with 3+4 and whatnot just fishing for counter hits lmao Or going for cheesy orbitals
@@carlomagneto Taunt Jet Upper is indeed the hardest thing to do, but it's not really necessary to master at any level of play. Hell, it's so rare to see it be done anyway. Akuma, for instance, requires execution constantly.
Bryan requires high execution to do combos in general. Try his magic 4 for example. Or the optimal ff4 combo. Canceling during combos is also hard. But as a bryan main i can tell you, the hardest thing the character has is the gameplan. I can explain in detail but it would take me much time to do it. Im from a region with high level tekken and gosh, sometimes i have a hard time keeping the neutral game with Bryan. There is no other way than being a master at footsies. His offensive and rushdown is below average.
As a Xiao main, I’d use the same argument as you used for Hwo. Her stuff is locked behind stances, and has some wild setups that need to be done to play her. She’s not as difficult as Hwo execution wise, but Hwo gets away with crazy mixups, and Ling gets away with her stance dodges. Then again, Ling has a lot of timing and hold f or b to set up her mixups. She’s made to trick the other player, so the Ling needs to maintain the balance of the match. She has some panic moves, but they are unsafe and, again, require the right follow up. I’d put her below Hwo, but not below Jack.
Lings are considered easy because at a low level they can just do shit into aop and not worry about frame advantage and at a high level assume their opponent guesses wrong on the oki set ups can literally turn the game into a one player game. That and b1 is incredible at a low level. Ling regardless of level of play is never really hard
Law has many problems outside low level play where people just spam reactable lows. On top of that, he's much more popular, meaning people know how to counter him better. He may have a few cheap tools, but he requires above average execution and fundamentals to play outside low level. Even intermediate players know how to counter him. Lei, on the other hand, is rare, doesn't take much execution, and pretty much everything else TMM said.
@@dantemeriere5890 Did you even watch the video? TMM argument was lei is so complicated that it makes him easy lets be honest now that statement makes no fucking sense!
@@jjwrx8 Which part of the statement is not making sense? TMM spent so much time talking about how the difficulty of Lei is dumped on the opponent to block his strings that you get free wins. What else could he have said to make it understandable for you?
There should be a distinction between hard to learn and hard to utilize. For example Lei is very hard to learn because of his complexity, but when you do learn enough of his moves you can just do them for free because that's the nature of his character. Mishimas are the opposite, very easy moves to learn but the execution and options are so limited that most of your time goes into learning when and how to use their moves instead of what moves to use.
@Sarincrow So true. Yesterday I and opponent had 2 wins and game lagged for a second when we were with about 20 hp and I was about to use shining wizard. I lost because lag skipped my last f input lol
@@MrNineFive Yeah they are very common in low-intermediate ranks. I've always a hard time telling which moves are low/mid/high with Bob because I never labbed him lol. Very annoying. Kinda same with Alisa. But Alisa you see a lot more online than Bob so I got used to her a bit.
i think he is really unfair with eliza... My julia is vanquisher and most of the other characters i play are at yellow ranks . I tried to pick up eliza, i learnt and can do most of her shit(since i am the kind of person that spends 90% of my time in practice mode) but i got demoted all the way to light blue ranks with her. The execution you need to hit confirm some moves into combos or dmg, her 10 frame punish, the clean hit on the low to get the upper (and the fact you get launched if you fail the clean hit or delay the 10 frame punish) made it so hard for me to play her... Sure i did blow some people up when i dive kicked their asses until they tilted out the game or when they did not punish me at all but i eventually dropped her because i could not do half of the things i practiced in a real match even after a lot of games. I think she is easier than geese and akuma but still a lot harder than he gave her credit for..
@@k-naychaproductions3931 i got back at her the past few days and i am doing a lot better( i guess i kind of evolved as a player to while playing other characters). You have some really cool videos i subscribed and will be watching!!
can you explain to me why bryan feels the best to me in every tekken, some told me it has something to do with long range, which character would fit my bryan playstyle in tekken and other games, i also played a lot of kilik in soul calibour
M8 you have been complaining abut the same characters/strings/stances since tt2, surely after all this time you could have learned to overcome them ? tt2 came out in 2012. 10 years later when tt3 comes out mainman will still be complaining about the same shit
@@huntersthompson1563 in what why are those characters harder to deal with then in tt2 ? they are the same characters Unless your talking about new players that started with tekken 7 then yeh its tough to deal with for new players.
@@someguy666 no i mean it doesnt really matter that hes complaining about them sinse tt2 because those same characters move sets are still hard to deal with effectively than the average character even if you know how to deal with them. Katerina for example.
@@huntersthompson1563 I could say the same about Kaz 50/50's. Or any character at all. The point is this guy is completely biased, just put all the characters he plays at the top and everything else at the bottom with no real criteria. Personally when I started Tekken, Kaz was the character I despised the most. I didn't know what was going on and they all spammed the same moves. Nowadays it's one of my favorite matchups but my point is everything is hard to deal with for the average player. We all have matchups we're more comfortable in than others. Wether it be because you also play that character or you have a buddy who mains them. In the end it's all about each individual and their experience with the game. You might agree with TMM because you also main Mishimas, or because you don´t know how to handle a Xiaoyu but he isn't 'spot on'.
You're taking things out of context. He said "You have the most complicated character in the game when it comes to defending against her" so he's saying her difficulty level goes down due to how great the opponent's defense needs to be in order to fight her
See your guys points are fair enough the problem is there was no consistency in what difficulty meant in this video because at some points it was hard to win with (in which case by definition wouldn't you just pick the lowest tier character) and some cases it was hard to play the character due to execution/moves, so the list is meaningless
Yo straight up, props to you for putting respect on how hard playing Bryan is, idk if I agree with him being harder than Kazuya but I'm not mad that you put him there and as a Bryan main, I can see why you day so
Not trolling but what makes him so hard? Ive never been able to grasp it, he isnt easy but I just don't consider him "hard". He has very good moves overall for most situations imo.
@@FerventFourEyes really bad punishment, very few panic moves, slow pressure tools, backsway makes kbd difficult which really hurts a spacing character, taunt starts feeling more and more important as you get higher up there, really whacky tools in general, his cheese moves stop working at yellow ranks, his best throw requires a weird cancel, really awful in certain matchups especially if the opponent has an i13 ws launcher, inconsistent range on some of his keepout moves. I wouldn't say he's the hardest in the game, not as hard as Lee, anyway. Unless you really want to land taunt shit all day.
@@_Heel_ When you put it like that it makes sense now, thank you. Any Bryan I've played that was halfway decent gave me a very good challenge so now I have even more respect for them.
Vergo If you try Jack without looking at his move list you'll be able to find good moves like db 1, df 2, maybe even simple juggles, now try to do the same with Xiao, she requires some self-knowledge hehe.
Vergo TMM tier list is about char difficulty (in my opinion, it's about how hard it is to use a char, but TMM didn't explain what type of difficulty he meant), Abdullah didn't aprove TMM putting Ling on easy tier(which I agree). You said most people don't know how to defend against her (true), but that's not what the list is about, so your argument is misguided, she actually is hard to pick and play(way harder than Kazuya to be honest).
@@Backdoorsk if no one knows how to defend against her all you have to do is learn ten moves and it's a free win basically (i'm just explaining tmm's reasoning on why she is relatively easy)
When u put Bryan on top. I thought its gonna be purely based on execution and even then bryan has only one demanding thing which TJU. EZ gameplan and EZ execution. Same with Jin and Devil Jin sure they require execution but the core gameplan is simple. There is no consistency in this tier list. Its quite garbo even tbh
what do u call core gameplan? ur own hability to plan on and play tekken? we are here to talk about the characters not our own core gameplay. Tekken is not about doing the same shit with the same character over and over again. U need to change that plan u are talking about (core gameplan) everytime u play against someone new with his own gameplan. So characters are hard depending of their tools and how hard is to put those tools on the game taking advantage of em, And mishimas are hard as fck. Besides, everyone knows how to defend against em as they are the most known characters of tekken history.
@@gtilted3634 I thought about giving you a meaningful response. But I can tell you are merely a bad player and all fighting game concepts go above your head. Enjoy staying a green rank kazuya.
@@JinTheAceStar its been a while since i played online seriously but i managed to achieve conqueror jin kazama a few months ago in PC so... i dunno maybe u are better and my words are stupid, oy maybe u are the green rank one and u keep writing dumbshit. Whatever, u are a narcisist douche bag. Enjoy ur meaningless answering people from youtube with that prepotency.
Because Bryan's close range game and punishment is absurdly weak.he has one good punisher and that is jet upper and it has --forward backward 2 input try doing that in a real match on just frames.And he is very difficult to pressure with once your snakedge starts getting blocked and snakedge can be blocked on reaction it's 29 frames it's not like hellsweep that is 19 frames.His whole game is based upon is his taunt the only thing that makes him good but try doing that in a real match.
Playing a hard character doesn't make you more of a badass, but sure. imo Lee is the hardest character in the game, and any good Lee player will get my respect.
@@crazy911wman lol I hit 3 mist step cancels in combos pretty consistently... Doesn't mean I'm not a dick. Nobody ki charges with lee because he has two fantastic taunt options instead, and default ki charge animation looks like ass. Rage quitting is for pussies, but as a Lee sub, I'm still a dick and will happily taunt my opponent. And remember: combos don't mean shit in this game compared to other stuff like Acidrain, ws23 into ff3, 33 hit confirming, b11~f~n pressure are all harder than his overestimatedly difficult combos.
i main bryan and my friend mains nina .... and if you wanna play bryan it's really hard to master combos , and the tuant needs god level excution to get one ... in the other hand nina is way more easy wiff punish or launch any one also it has fast recovery frames so she can do lot's of shit right in front of your face ... so if you're losing to bryan it means you're a noob at defending yourself espicially when you can't defend his snake edge
Yall just cant accept the fact that he is a hard player, go use kazuya and try to do electrics and combos guarantee you'll give up on trying yall probably use noctis
Anna easy? Hmm.. No. Still surprises me how people think that Nina is harder to use than Anna. This is such dated mentality. If we talk pure execution fundamentals then yeah Anna can be seen as "easy" but everything else with the character is an uphill battle. Unsafe, worst punishers in the game, lacking good mids, linear, shitty hitboxes, no panic moves, no running moves etc and the list goes on into oblivion. Compare her moves to Nina that has moves such as uf1, db2 (safe CH launching tracking mid with sick range), db3, d2, df2 (safe 15f launcher), uf21, qcf1(which was pretty much stolen from Anna's core kit), SS+1, WR 1+2 which is +4 on block etc and you realise how much of a struggle it is for Anna to compete with Nina. Nothing about Nina is that hard except multiple ws1 in combos, but it's not even a crucial part in her gameplay to be successful with her. How can MainMan even have an opinion of Anna when he clearly hasn't even played her? Yeah, lol. Try again.
@@keytho1002 I play them both as well and there is no "execution" to Nina really besides multiple ws1 in combos. Nina has a way easier time than Anna, especially in higher ranks.
Only one person in the world has enough experience using every single character to be able to make the most valid and objective Difficulty Tier List
Knee
I guess that's true, but if you even started tekken at tekken 3, you have 22 years fighting most of the cast
SimSim Salahbim 22 years of bitching about characters and not knowing the matchups then crying about it (tmm)
@@fezan5342 it's like 20% salt and 80% character analysis. I've played for 18 years myself and it's not like what hes saying is wrong
@@vegetoavery He's a nina main you wont see any logic from no name
Yeah ... you are right , now get lost bitch
honestly any character with powerfull lows will do much better on lower ranks no matter the difficulty
Lefteris Papadakis True
Amen
Lefteris Papadakis powerful lows especially online and a hop kick.
ehem: fucking hellsweep.
So true, especially online, people take the advantage of 3-4 bars connection and do sweep full combos like hell even they know it's a risky move, but they will spam it. Lili, anna,asuka,ling, katarina,bryan, lucky,feng, hwo, eddy, bear...etc. I often see Lili, anna,asuka,ling, katarina,bryan and lucky players do 1or2 jabs, then go for a full combo sweep, just pure scrubness.
Kuma: *on the chart*
Panda: *in the bin*
Me: *visible confusion*
ErR0r 4554 😂😂😂
Because they’re redundant and he didn’t feel like putting them in the same spot lol
Then what's the reason for not "classifying" Alisa and Bob? A lame cop-out like "once you're in the dumpster you don't get out?"
@@wolframitered4279
alisa: scumbag weeb players
bob: the stupidest, most busted character in tekken 6
@@Free-4554 so it's pure salt basically. I'm actually interested in alisa because she has such funny attacks
I can already hear the roar of 89% of Tekken7 community lol
Lucky777Seven it’s hilarious how many comments there are on this video about people defending their characters. I think sometimes people forget most of the stuff mainman does is just his opinion and people don’t have to agree with it.
@zXxDashxXz yeah like him saying Kazuya is tied for second hardest Character Lmao!
Yes it is his opinion, but the thing is, that his opinion was kinda stupid in this video. Dont get me wrong, i like TMM, but his criteria for every character was different, which makes the tierlist simply a mess and nonsense. I hoped for a more informative video with reasonable explanation, but got pretty much dissapointed. :/
Satoshi He does this with most tier list doesn't he?😂 He steer's away from the reason he's making it I notice but I think he knows what he does sometimes and he just likes upsetting people lol
@@BuffLars Also, I see no problem in playing an easier character: it's a matter of having fun, but people see it like a matter of ego and pride instead. Bah
Mainman : Doing qcf with Paul is hard.
Also Mainman : All you need is dive kick spam with Eliza, she's easy.
MainMan: HWo is hard u can flamingo spam but u must learn him and this is hard.
Also MainMan: Lei and Yoshi are not that hard u have bullshit .
But wait i must Learn Hwo to unlock his bullshit so i must learn yoshi and Lei stances too to unlock bullshit do I ? (100 moves and 10 stances he say EASY to learn)
Then i'll have for say try QCF1 and Connect it with qcb4 with Paul.
@@franklestk3038 if we're going by case to case logic with combos than isn't Nina one of the hardest characters 😂😂😂
@@IAMOP Dude its stupid to put a Tekken Character in a Tierlist, Tekken is Not a Game where Just Char. Abilities Matter there is far more.
@@franklestk3038 it's about consistency dude. If someone claims a particular character is difficult for xyz reason than cool.
He may or may not be right but he should apply the same logic to other characters too.
Not being consistent is the issue here.
What about a tier list for how hard the characters make you
Kazuya still top tier
Gigass S tier
I like me some Yoshi tentacles
Kazuya makes TMM do rising sun
Kuma and Panda definitely top tier
The only tier list where being D rank character is good.
You cannot convince me that Eliza and Lei are easier to play than Kazumi.
*[df1 INTENSIFIES]*
Wizard Lizard yeah outside of the df1 lei requires using many moves since he has nothing good and Eliza actually requires execution at any level
Luminethereploid running 2 running 2 running 2 df1 df1 df1 - Kazumi
@@Luminethereploid I see people say the things you stated about Lei, but about Yoshimitsu. About him having cheesy strings, good evasion, abusable gimmicks, and the infamous statement "You're not playing Tekken, you're playing X character".
And yet people seem to agree with TMM that he requires above average skill. But then you have people agreeing with the TMM with him putting Noctis and Lei around the same ease of use.
It makes no damn sense!
I'm sorry but you cannot convince me that Lei and Eliza are within the Top 10 easiest characters to play in Tekken 7.
@@Wizard_Lizard_ yoshimitsu its about being creative, controlling distances and u cant get all ur tools at any stances like does lei. Lei is about landing all the different shit u can and he will move alone and eliza about the fcking dark wave. the easiest of these 3 is obv eliza.
@@Luminethereploid 11, db4, df1 is all kuzumi needs.. stop with your scrubby mentality
Mishimas are the type of fighters you learn over 5 years and still get your ass handed to a noob who never played before.
source: im a kaz/jin main
I agree but I have issues with dlc characters that I don’t have unlocked so I have no clue how to deal with them
I’m also kaz/Jin main
@wude same bro. I know I'll be in a disadvantage playing with characters that I'm not familiar with.
Kaz needs a poke. I think if you made his DF1 i14 it can open up a bit more options and it won't make him unfair. At i15 it's practically useless in neutral.
Let's be honest some of the more modern or T7 abomination characters have way too many good tools. Giving Kaz 1 poke won't break the game or ruin his identity.
Kazuya is one of the easiest to use and OP characters imo but that could be because ive mained him and brian since i was a child
TMM trying to make peace with all the Nina mains out there haha
nase 274 failing at it SO BAD
Suri *unfortunately
fuck him he doesnt know shit
TMM keeps bullying Nina players lmao
He was actually being fair to her. What I don't agree with are the placings of Eliza, Lei, and Lee. The first two are actually harder than Lee.
@@MaskedGuyCh Lee deserves to be up there, his most damaging combos require a lot of execution and even then the damage is minimal compared to every other character.
I know right she wasn't hard for me.
Masked Guy It takes a butt load to do work with Lee. He doesn’t have as many gimmicks as the other two so you have to put in more effort with him. The other two are tricky af tho
@@hackingenious7 You can do combos that don't require much execution and still do well with the character. B2 combos are no longer needed for Lee to do well.
And Lee has one of the easiest, most damaging wall combos in the game.
>putting Lei in Easy
ABSOLUTE *MAD LAD*
Well if your fighting a button mashing Lei player and a button mashing Kazuya player, the Kazuya player will be a lot easier to deal with than the button mashing Lei player. FACT
@@kevinjohn8497 bull shit tfo here with that sht with 50/50 sweep lmaoo
@@jadonplox no dude, just no
I was trigger when he put Paul on easy. 😂
Lei: hit with lows. Done.
Dude I watch your videos and I don't even play Tekken WTF
Yang Bo TMM has a talent for explaining and teaching things interestingly and informatively
loooool wtf
I'm like that with Alpharad and Smash.
Get the game!
Same bro. I've been following competitive Tekken for years and I dont even play. I'm a smash player.
Yoshi player here
this video was hilarious
I'm sending you 10 skooma to show my support
Fuckin A 🤣
Furi
@@mixnflix101 :33 ^^
Send him moon sugar! Let him refine his own skooma
You Yoshi mains are something else 😆
I’m not even a Lei or Eliza main but they are wayyy harder to play than what you put them at smh. Eliza requires a lot of execution and her inputs are similar to akuma
I guess she's lower because of focus attack dash canceling is harder than Elizas step mixup usage. She does seem to have worse buttons though
Eliza was made for the button mashers
@@kevinjohn8497 yup, that's me
@@kevinjohn8497 not at all
I remember cheesing with Raven back when I was playing Tekken 5 in the PS2, I just keep on tapping forward while I mash 1 2 everytime to finish Jinpachi in Story. I learned a few teleport moves and that just made it a lot more fun. I might want to buy a memory card and plug back my PS2 again, I miss playing Midnight Club 2 and Tekken 5.
Oh Midnight Club was so good! One of the most underrated racing game series' out there for sure.
@@disruptor6550 My nigga!!
*Dude hardness is different for each character* kazuya/ geese are hard for their execution Yoshi / gigas coz they don't have good tools and *TheMainManSWE* says *Lei isn't hard or average cuz the opponent doesn't know about his moves or stances*
This sounds like bullshit. He is average if not hard bcoz of a sophisticated game plan with terrible frames and bad fundamentals and bad range. A lei player has to think like 3 to 4 steps ahead of a normal tekken character.not easy to do in a ranked match. MainMan has not mained lei and xiaoyu(sophisticated characters) hence he doesn't know.....but mained Yoshi recently so he knows about him and places him above average. In short characters that he has mained are at their proper places in this tierlist unlike the the characters he has not mained. Hell even knee had problems with getting his lei to tgp. it took more time for him compared to other characters and his win percentage with lei is the least.
If you see TMM play Lei he doesn't ever use his stances. He has no idea how Lei works.
bigdsweet I know man .....this is so biased
@@bigdsweet He literally said in that video (The Lei Mixbox video) "Lei is hard to play."
Melku44 he also thinks lei is easy cuz he lost many matches to alltimeszzz( one of the best lei in the EU)
Like the original comment so that more people could see it lol
Me: Mains Alisa
TMM: In the dumpster you go, and stay there.
boshman11 Yup :(
should've stayed away from the degeneracy of playing a cheesy character like Alisa
Lol im alisa main too
Same man :'(
I main heihachi, but love playing with her sometimes, so fun!
I don’t agree with some of these. You should’ve have explained whether or not the character is difficult to pick up and play or difficult to play with at a high level. For example, Eliza isn’t an easy character considering that she is as weak as Gigas is and requires good execution just like the other 2D characters.
I am new to tekken in learning way and i made eliza my main ._.
Mainman's tier list it's like. All the Characters I like and use, put them to difficult and all the Characters I dislike and don't use put them to easy or the dumpster. TMM logic 2019.
GHOSTRIDER 1994 so true😂
Exactly.
So Josie, Noctis, Asuka, Claudio, Leo, Kuma, Negan aren’t easy to play? Those characters have no execution. Master raven, Paul, Marduk, Law, Feng, those require a decent amount of execution to play at a high level. He doesn’t even fucking play Hwoarang, King, Yoshi, Akuma, Julia, or Lee. What sort of biased would he have towards those characters? Devil Jin could be a bit lower, he’s certainly easier than Heihachi but besides that this list is pretty accurate.
@@darknezzpwnz He plays with hwoarang, lee , king but not right now. With yoshi he played couple of streams ago. This is no one near accurate. Lei is easier than law or claudio yeah. That's bullshit. He puts this characters not objectively in this tier list.
GHOSTRIDER 1994 just because he played the character once or twice doesn’t mean he’s maining that character and is completely in love with that characters play style. You can apply that logic to like every character on the fucking roster except for maybe Bob and Alisa because he’s never played them. So no your reasoning doesn’t make any sense. He’s played almost every character at least once. So he must just bias towards every character right? “This list is no where near accurate” just because Lei is down at the bottom? I don’t agree with it either but everything else is pretty accurate. Wtf are you talking about? Found the Lei main lol
Xiaoyu: I'm easy to play?
Eliza: HOLD MY DARK WAVE
Instant divekick and combo more than 64 dm is hard to do, obvious
no shes not, unless you have a Arcade stick, dear god these imputs hurt my fingers
thats funny sometimes i mess up throwing dark waves but then do the hard super combo with like 4 instant dks and dark wave dosent do anything unless you use meter they changed the ex moonglide input but i was fine with it the way it was
Eliza marked as one of the easiest characters. Yep, someone had a traumatic experience.
Tbh i play most of the "top hard" chars im on mighty ruler on them but I suck at playing eliza and doing her combos. She ain't that easy imo. Kazuya can also spam hellsweep in high rank I think mainmans tier list is kinda irrelevant at this point.
i can agree with you when it comes to high damage combos with Eliza,you need execution to do them BUT this tier list is about how hard and complicated the char is to play overall and Eliza wins easy on that due the fact that people dont know how to deal with her.
@@r4yzzzz yeah that might be true, no one really knows how to play against her. But imo thats not how someone should be rated in a tier list. Its not the characters fault that no one knows her. Play against her 20 times or lab her for 40 min and the character is completely useless. I dont like eliza that much either but that's a fact imo
@@Grasuke i will totaly agree with you.
Grasuke Kun I’ll have to disagree with you on this one. A characters pick rate should always come into play on a tier list because that lack of knowledge can allow you to get away with cheesy and gimmicky stuff that people won’t know how to deal with. This also comes into play when you think about all the other characters that are commonly played. You can either lab this one character that no one plays that you might lose a match to once in a hundred matches or you could lab this character that you seemingly fight every other match or so.
Mainman...be honest with us....we all know why you left Panda in the trash but put Kuma on the board.....
You're salty Panda won TWT, aren't you?
why would he be salty? Rangchu won fair and square
Panda..... REARY?
I blame it on sexism.
@@Neo-wc4zg because he put Kuma on the board but left Panda out, even though they have the same moveset. Either way it's a joke, so whatever right?
it's just a palette swap
I love how he mentions guilty gear when talking about eliza, trust me she doesn't belong there, she is morrigan from darkstalkers
kek yeah, you are right
Nobody knows wtf is this shit and why is it in the game
@@LightWavess because it's a diversity fighting game you know that.
shenell johnson well, we dont need her 2d diversity. Give us diversity in martial arts please
@@illyrianeagle9901 do you not know they were putting 2d characters in the game as a test to see how balancing would go for Tekken x Street Fighter? They needed her, they needed Akuma and they needed Geese. These things not only pulled in other fans and more sales it let them have more experience with turning 2D characters into a 3D one.
That’s a who I hate the most tierlist. 😂😂
@@truebatman9421 how can someone else's opinion/joke effect you so much. Get a life you fucking loser, you need something else to worry about.
@@truebatman9421 get some pussy
@@truebatman9421 virgin alert
@@beeeeeeale.4 because he's batman. LOL
@@truebatman9421
*Ah Haha*
I hope you are being sarcastic, cuz the Heihachi part cracked me up.
But if you are serious...
Calm your tits babe, its just a list 😑
Criteria changes from character to character making the tier list a clown fiesta. Plus, you can tell a Lei player hurt him deeply.
if you are correct, then i think he was traumatized to the point where while everyone knows how to beat Lei, TMM freezes up and so he still has this huge misconception. Movelist, stances, and memorization? Has no one told him how to beat Lei yet?
Knee has 70%+ win rate on all characters at Tekken God Prime fighting against Koreans, and Knee to this day still says Lei is his worst character. *Yet ironically Knee can probably beat TMM with only Lei neutral moves.*
Assuming you've learned all the characters, Lei is in fact the harder one to use, with Knee as a great example of this.
What's hilarious is that he's now touting lei as the hardest character in the game bar none
i dont think that saying people are bad at defending one character is a good point to say it's easy
@@gonzbergtv damn that is cringe
So Lei is many tiers easier than gigas?
This doesn't really make sense to me, i play both of those characters and nothing you have to do as gigas is harder than Lei's Magic 4 combo, or punishing -12 moves with the fn*4 string.
Jostein Ruen I was JUST about to comment about him. Lei is one of the most difficult characters to learn in the game. So many moves, and stances, properties of all the different stances, etc. Not to mention his stubby range makes it difficult as well, there’s no way he’s down there with Josie and Asuka
Mainman dedicated about 5 minutes of his video to explain his reasoning. His reasoning makes sense, but that doesn’t mean you necessarily have to agree with it. At the end of the day this tier list is an opinionated one.
His reasoning actually made no sense. It was along the lines of he’s difficult but it’s also difficult for the opponent. Literallly he admitted he was difficult but because he has a problem fighting him he put him down there among easy characters
@@bolahan Exactly. That's pretty much what he did for a lot of characters. He finds a character difficult or obnoxious to fight against? Well, then that automatically makes them easy to play.
I find it more surprising that any character is easier than Noctis. Katarina at least requires some level of stance knowledge with her rage drive.
so what we've learned is:
the bigger the movelist and the more complex your character is, the easier they are to play
except hwo
Usually characters with huge movelists have dogshit moves that are designed to crush everything. To play against Lei and his stances you need to play anti-Lei, because he dodges so much just by attacking. If you have a move list full of unsafe, non crushing moves, yeah the character is going to be hard. A move list full of mixups that avoid getting hit is not hard to play, it's just hard to memorize.
If this tier list is supposedly based on the difficulty of learning a character, then Lei Wulong Should be on the top of the list. TMM keeps switching his argument from the learning curve of the character to playing against the character.
No, this list is based on how is difficult to play effectively the character, not to learn him
Lei in Lower and intermediate level is easy as fuck, he has very fast and strong low, in higher level maybe become difficult but he has this fucking tools advantage against almost the characters.
I wish you had put Eliza in the dumpster, for two reasons: because that's where she belongs and because I feel like you don't really know much about her.
She's about as strong as Gigas, but actually requires execution to do everything even at the lowest level of play. You mentioned the divekick spam at the wall, but getting perfect instant divekicks every time is not an easy task at all, and the terrible range of that move makes it almost worthless whenever you are not playing at range 0.
I really wish you gave a closer look at her to see what's going on with her movelist and her frames, and then you'd problably realize what a nightmare being an Eliza player is.
No u
TMM is a funny dude but holy shit he's a hypocritical little bitch. With such a huge audience he really should try being more objective.
This is way to accurate
"no one has mastered lei" = place him as easy. big lmao dog
@steve sabroe ok then quantum physics simple either is it? it is complex but soooo simple, blablablabla. man, try to read what a nonsence you writhing
@steve sabroe just gfys dude )
@steve sabroe the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, right? ))))
It's not like you need to master him in order to beat a lot of people lmao
thats the point. if the people that play him all the time dont know everything how well can someone who rarely sees him expect to do?
"What have we ever done to you?" - Nina mains
They pass a bed time
Daniel Marek 😂😂😂
nina mains r pretty annoying in online ngl
The explanation about Lei invalidated the whole list, the moment you pick up a char and have to "lab" just to get started already proves the difficulty behind said character. Just by watching someone play Kazumi or Jack for example, you can tell their key moves and "copy" their playstyle.
And TMM forgot to define what type of difficulty he meant, like: Difficult to pick up and play, difficult to win(with or against), Hard against good players, etc.
Seems weird to make a tier list for players who are getting blasted by random strings to begin with. Like of course Lei is OP if you just keep pushing buttons in the middle of his strings.
@@TurboHomsen hell against lei I encourage spam because a lot of his stance transitions are punishable.
Strongly disagree with Eliza and Lei being easy, and the reason doesn't make sense IMO. They still require a lot of execution, especially Eliza.
The hate for Alisa is getting old too. She's a very fundamental character, so I'd put her above average in terms of difficulty.
Also, Lee is not that much harder than Shaheen, they are both fundamental characters, and they both rely on slide to open up their opponents. In fact, Lee's slide is better, since it doesn't transition into stance, so getup 3 is 100% guaranteed after the slide.
agreed 👊🏿
When I first started playing tekken I had a feel for the characters and Alisa was one of the most brain dead easy ones, so i used her a lot until I upgraded to Jin/Kazuya/hwoarang/Steve/Lee.
Basically the big boy leagues.
Alisa is hard if you're slow
@@MaskedGuyCh did u really just say that? Ur actually a teal rank LUL
This. No idea why people hate Alisa, her "gimmicks" are very easy to deal with and in the end she is just a fundamental poke character with rushdown stance.
Also absolutely no idea why Eliza this low
That tier list is a nonsense. I highly respect TheMainMan's opinion but his point of view is binary and that doesn't work.
He tries to explain that we need to see characters as we defend ourselves, like they are our opponents. But the tier list doesn't follow such pattern.
You need to make a character difficulty tier list offensively (you play the character), so that would be a standard tier list, and defensively (you're against the character). Fighting against a Katarina is not that easy. She's easy to play and is not so complex but she's very good so defensively she can be hard.
Eliza is absolutely NOT an easy character. At high levels (yes, not pro, he said it,) you can't just dive kick. Sorry, no. Instant dive kick requires very good execution and she's unsafe as hell. She's not easy at all.
It would go the same way with other characters:
- Xiaoyu easier than Shaheen? What?! Defensively and offensively, Xiaoyu is way more difficult to handle than Shaheen.
- Lei is not easy. TMM's basically saying that if you do mess with Lei, you win easily because he's complex with his stances. COME ON.
- Anna is not that easy defensively and offensively. Since she is so unsafe, you get easily beaten in medium levels if you're not careful.
- Bryan is high? WHY? Bryan is designed for beginners the same way Asuka would be.
Yeah, I feel like he didn't put any thought into like half of the cast in the tier list, and he is just assuming that gimmicky characters are all easy. And he is generalising too much, not looking into any of the characters that deeply.
@@krishbhalla4789 It's very hard to know all the aspects of each character since they are like 45 in Tekken 7. But I agree with you. It needs more knowledge of each character and a more specific tier list name.
If you think Bryan is made for beginners you're a fucking idiot.
@@_Heel_ Just compare Bryan to Hwoarang. Now look at TMM's tier list. Don't you think there's something wrong?
@@TristanLaurens Bryan's tools are far more difficult and fundamentals based than Hwos are, and I really like both of them. Sorry, but I you think using Bryan's super whiff punish based game plan is easy to use when you need to master kbd on an character with backsway is a beginner character, you don't know what you're talking about. He doesn't have standard tekken tools at all, his punishment sucks, his plus moves are slow, his cheese moves stop working at around yellow ranks, and it's incredibly difficult to use counterhit tools against a patient opponent. He's not for beginners, and he's not even easier than hwo.
I just feel bad for the noobs that end up watching this
Young Ali he wasn’t wrong though katarina is easy 😂😂
Thank you!! I am so confused.... 🤣
I just picked up the game and then started spamming Dive Kick...the video at least described my playstyle well lol.
Why would you feel bad for us? Who cares? 😆
well lucky chloe isnt that easy if she is then he can show me how to win with this much easy character
Eliza is honestly one of the most difficult character of the game (maybe not for the complexity of the game plan like hwoarang or steeve, but her execution and input needed are just crazy)
you can literally reach the mid high tiers of ranked by spamming her dive kick. sure at higher ranks she struggles and you need to learn how to execute her other moves. IMO she should be next to xiaoyu.
@@ignitron2710 I tried to do that with her at light blue ranks and im still stuck there probably people in my region are offline players mostly
This guy literally said in the lei mixbox video that "LEI IS HARD TO PLAY".....guess he changed his opinion after losing to some lei players
Damn, y'all some sensitive bitches? You disagree with a guy's existence because he doesn't have the same opinion as you do about your character? Aww.
Varghest dude when lei came out and tmm mained him he said lei is hard and few weeks ago he got his ass beated by a really good lei player from Germany and that's why I think he is now saying lei is easy. I mean how does the opponent not knowing how to defend make him easy SMH. He just hates lei coz he doesn't wanna lab him(even though he's been there since tekken 2) and he loses to lei players so he just try to defend himself by roasting lei players.
Lol he often just randomly changes his opinions without any acknowledgement whatsoever. In the early days of Tekken 7, he said Akuma was extremely difficult. Then, after losing to Akuma players online, he called him cheesy and said he isn't difficult. Now, he once again says he's very difficult.
Mahamoudhagi I watched him lose on his stream I have no video of it
Varghest i am sensitive and I just feel angry coz he just roasting lei mains just bcoz he doesn't want to lab him
Having a lot of moves doesn't make a character easy to play, especially if 90% of your moves aren't useful - not to say bad - or very situational. Sure, a laggy Lei spamming razor rush and d/b+4, 4 can be very annoying (like every laggy opponent), but he is without doubt one of the worst characters in the game and one of the hardest characters to play.
I hate Eliza but she is surely not easy to play. Why is she supposed to be easy while Akuma and Geese are difficult? Last but not least, the bears are not easy to play and are not recommendable for less experienced players. Even having them in the same difficulty tier as Noctis is just ridiculuos. Just imagine TMM picking up Kuma and reaching TGP rank in no time like he did with Noctis. Good luck with that
So true, and let's not forget about Lei or Anna punish tools which are the worst in the T7.
Yoshimitsu in a nutshell basically.
Anna is not that easy I think... She has cheese but she is so bad at punishing, it's actually hard to fight spammers at low level so she forces you to be good at blocking since you're not punishing most of the enemy cheese.... it's frustrating how even if you're learning fundamentals, it's still so tough to make enemies respect your defense lol
She's about equal as Xiaoyu or Claudio I think... especially the latter with their similar slight requirement on fundamentals.
I'm a low level Anna player lol
Press 4
Fate/ Mafumafu Xiaoyu has pretty good punishers imo. Her 1 D2 is a 10f punish which leaves her in backturned if you like, her F1+2 is a mid 12f punish with good range, so it probably hits everything that's - 12 even with a weird hit box with decent damage, it also wallsplats. Her DF1 and B1 is perfect to stop spam, her AoP crushes like 90% of the moves in the game. Her B4 4 is a very strong 13/14f punish which is mid high, safe, and gives a wallsplat with very good hit box. Anna and Xiaoyu aren't comparable in my opinion
Marduk has the same problem whiff punishing.
@@sewanendonliraidn2007 ah I was comparing them not in the punishment department but in just in how long it feels like to learn the characters.
I mained Xiaoyu before T7 so I know she takes time to learn but you can totally get by with just a few moves.
Anna however also can get by with a few moves but she needs good defense on top of it to break out of lower ranks so it feels like she's harder than Xiaoyu since with Xiao, you're mostly really just trying to figure out how to master her offense while Anna is about how to be good at defending against over 30 characters. And defense is hard so it feels like she's harder than Xiao since enemies can respect Xiao's defense when you're good at it but not really with Anna.
Anna’s punishment isn’t bad outside of no i15 launcher, well she does but it’s hard ofc. Her whiff punisher is decent , b22 is insane for an i13. The only issue is her WS imo
16:50 *LEI* : Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue. You were sayin' something about "best intentions"? What's the matter? Oh, y-you were finished? Oh, well allow me to retort!
_[Lei looks pretty upset]_
Some people dont realize execution isn't the only thing that determines difficulty. What your game plan is and how easy it is for your character to implement it goes a long way.
I think the X axis needs use here
easy to hard is the same but left to right is game plan vs execution
@@abirneji you your right the chart usage is poor.
Agreed
Nobody:
Asuka: *UNGA BUNGA b+3 parry*
Awful use of the meme. Cringe.
Asuka players bet their whole rent on B3.
Nelo907 imagine being a professional in memes....
Oh my God THE CRINGE
xXGodly KazamaXx lol I know
I don't agree with your tier list TMM, but you make laugh as always. Keep up the good work :).
Nobody agrees with his list. You can see that TMM did this Tier List to trigger certain people.
But i agree with the dumpster characters, especially Bob is trash and easy win.
IMO MainMan calls lei easy to defend his losses against one of the best lei players in the EU he lost many matches to alltimeszzz a few weeks ago. He fails to see that it was the lei player's skill due to which he lost
@@SnakeInTheRain you remember what video he fights alltimezzz in?
@Mahamoudhagi do you remember wh8ch video TMM plays alltimezzz?
This is so true
Tbh people get to uppity about character difficulty, just pick up who you think is cool or enjoyable to play with
Proud Claudio and Dragunov main, unashamedly.
Literally my 2 favourite characters. Very *hosse!* of you indeed.
I cant stand the char shaming bullshit.
I wish more people thought like you.
Proud main of Chloe and Lee.
Lei is a very complex character. You can get away with a lot playing with him, but knowing what are you is totally different. I liked him better on Tekken 3, but I did missed him initially in Tekken 7. Now Lee is a character that I picked quite easily in Tekken 2. I would never imagine to see him as a hard tier
Lee has the hardest input execution in Tekken
@@joemogley don’t think it’s the hardest but it’s up there. I’m a lee main and I think 2D characters have higher execution
I have a few disagreements but my biggest one is that Jin is too high. He's not that difficult to play
Lei : has like ten different stances and approximately 150 move sets under his execution.
Main man : puts him below Law and Eddie as well as Gigas whom can make any five year old look like a God tier level pro maniac just by button matching his/her way to success. Hmmm excellent choice. I absolutely dig it
Lei is a super easy character? Great!! Ima go pick him up in a day. Wish me luck!!
Idk, he picks up the character in term of difficulty based on all ranks. Term of difficulty should be with the criteria of how hard it is to execute combos with, the amount of tools they posses and the amount of dmg they can output during aerials, pokes, wall combos. So basically speaking I put kazuya high only because his combos are straight forward and they come only out of counter hit and electric, even then mastering his high dmg combos you need to learn how to micro dash, wave dash, wave dash into while risings, good defence /whiff punish. All this makes for me when I tried kazuya hard af. Jin which I mostly play he is also difficult but not remotely close to kazuya. Jin has stances to extend combos, has electric, df2 that also aerial, hop kick, while rising 2, hell sweep, db4 during counter hit, great poking tools, great mix up tools. So based on that I would say some characters in this list for me atleast are kinda wrong judged. For example Eliza has cancels, total different movement set up compared our generic tekken character, without meter has an avarage dmg potential, hard execution so it's not for any player to pick her up. Cause when you say "easy" for a character, it means he can perform combos without any execution and smashing 1 button.
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 my G
Lol this list feels very half assed. Any character he doesn´t do well against is 'cheap' and easy yet clearly easier characters are above them?? He puts all the male characters he knows how to play higher and basically doesn't care about the rest (RIP Bob mains lol). Why is Paul so high up in this list? QCF inputs are not hard at all. Maybe if you started Tekken yesterday sure, but after two seconds a QC input is just as easy as a F,F input. Paul is stupid easy when it comes to execution gameplan and damage. I don't play Xiaoyu but anyone can tell that character is not one you can just pick up and play. Just because she's complicated and people have a hard time with the matchup doesn't mean she's by any means an 'easy' character. Idk it ain't that deep I just think this list doesn´t follow one set series of criteria and each character is being individually judged on a variety of different things thus making this list moot.
@@robertoledezma4248 Totally agree
Hey TMM, you proved that Noctis was easy to play. Even flew thru the ranks to TGP in no time. If Lei is as easy as you say he is, would it be too much to ask for you to do the same with Lei?
I think you undervalue Yoshi a little too much, MainMan. In a game where the essentials are "Can a character poke and punish well?" Yoshi falls rather short. While he does possess good standing punishment, he is greatly hindered by the following things; he has terrible WS punishment until i15. His pokes aren't very good as they are quite minus, and they lack any great ability to reliably fish for counter hits. And while someone like Jin or Hei have the luxury of being able to use some of their punishes as pokes at times, (the most common example being Hei's df/1, 2) Yoshi cannot do that when you go against opponents slightly familiar with the matchup -- his df/1, 4 is -14 on block, his b+2, 2 is not only duckable but can be blocked and punished (though that is character specific). His stance mixups aren't particularly scary either, Kin provides little incentive to duck (like Yoshi himself) as the low is i25 and a lot of his other options are MUCH faster. Dragonfly is likely scarier, yet ducking blows up a lot of his options, and if you're feeling really brave doing a sidestep is even better. His scariest non retaliatory mixup is his NSS FC mixup. But even with such hindrances, I've seen you handwave all this and go "Yeah, but Yoshi can bullshit!" without ever really going into detail what exactly is bullshit. So, I can only speculate, but I know you have big problems with flash and sword sweep. If you truly do have problems with those moves then may I ask, if a -15 on block/whiff parry and a seeable i25 unblockable low with poor range (and believe me it's easier to backdash to avoid this than to sidewalk a hellsweep) is "bullshit" what am I meant to call something like Jin's parry which is nigh on impossible to whiff punish; what am I to call the hellsweep? What am I to call Kaz's d/f 2 only being -12? Some other "bullshit" you may be referring to are some of his retaliatory mixups, such as his wakeup setups, but when you break it down it's not really bullshit. For retaliatory mixups lie in the hands of the opponent, not Yoshi. Meaning Yoshi has to make hard reads about the common tendencies of his opponent like how he wakes up. So, if you find yourself rolling only to be picked up by the sweep, ultimately you only have yourself to blame, because you were either mindlessly pushing buttons, or you decided to roll and the Yoshi player read that.
I also think your appreciation of Anna is undervalued at higher levels of play, but ultimately opinions are opinions. And if there is one thing you hit the nail on the head on it is that as a Yoshi main I do spend more time in the lab than playing the game!
Well said, people always think yoshi is this bs character that you pick up and start to slaughter players with mixups. Thats until you actually pick up the character and try it. Yoshi is vastly different from those mix up/string characters like lei, xiayou etc. Those characters have pretty strong fundamentals/pokes aside from flowcharts. Yoshi literaly has herrendous fundamentals. With yoshi there is no option. You have to do one thing, be very experienced with the character to know what to use when at what stance, when to move, when to troll and most importantly forget framedata and play instinctively. Thats right instictively predict your opponent and try to catch them on things. Good thing is TMM is going for all tekken god prime. He thinks jin, gigas etc are difficult. Watch when the struggle when he gets to yoshi.
*Sees Alisa being put into the "dumpster"*
TMM: You can't exit the dumpster
Me: *Motivation and self esteem falls below zero, despite also trying to play with Jin and Devil Jin*
Don't worry about it, it's only his opinion, nothing else.
In my opinion, Alisa is a great character.
VG World LoL I’m weak and dead asf. The amount of Alisa mains getting triggered over TMM opinion is hilarious 😂🤣.
@@MaskedGuyCh alisa is cheap garbage, if you think shes hard you have a learning disability
@@adapt3016 he didn't say she is hard lol?
Alisa is not a respected character...
18:05 , i have been recently trying to get into tekken and your channel has been extremly helpful however your analogies at some points are just to funny
Law above Lars? Seriously main man sometimes I think your trolling.
Not necessarily a bad thing imo, Lars is awesome to learn the game with. But yeah, I thought he was stoned too.
Dragon cannon at the wall ds cancels and has the most dropped combo in the game. Online law is different tho cause you can just run laws game cause of 3bars.
DSS is hard to do
Lars doesn't have anything difficult
Law almost has no evasion while lars has tons of it
Wait, DSS isn't hard. Maybe putting in a complex combo is a different story, but overall, it's easy.
If I've learnt anything in this comment section, its that Bryan mains are just as deluded as Jin mains lol
Jin and Bryan ArE SuPer HaRD
@@Mat_DE1t nothing difficult about Jin
Snake Edge intensifies
Hey completely noob here, i tried playing kazuya and jin yesterday, but for me its sooo sooo hard to play jin because i cant get his combo with all those stance consistenly, while i can pretty much play kazuya. Maybe because im using a pad, but for me jin is so hard
@@iqbaalmuhmd Stances in combos just become another input, try not to put thought into the actual stance itself. Great thing about Jin is he is very flexible with his combos, there's almost always an alternative to any combo whilst still hitting just as hard in damage
Having mained at one point or another Asuka, Leo and Josie I wouldn't put them in the same level. Asuka is much easier than Leo who is much easier than Josie. They are all below average, but Josie's microdash combos and some of her rather tight minicombos make her tricky to make the best use of. I would put her just under Drag. Drag has the f3,cdc combos and wr2 but otherwise feels pretty close to Josie.
armour king also feels much harder to pick up than king, but that's beginners perspective here
I don't know the baseline for this list, beginner, intermediate, expert or pro
@@abirneji I had WAY more success with picking up Armor King compared to King, honestly, but maybe it's just because the former fits into my style more
Agreed about Josie. I'm a new Tekken player and I'm learning her (she is my main) but she isn't easy to make the best use of. And you can't really spam with her. Gotta mix it up to make the best use of her. She requires some serious thinking strategy-wise. Isn't really that straight forward I would say. Really fun character tho! :)
the way tmm talks about josie makes me think he has only tried to play her like 2 times
@@breadtk I felt the same. He really hates the character lol. Josie is far from Katerina and the like. She isn't a cheap character. She requires some thinking when play her and execution as well.
Hard to learn?
Hard to execute?
Hard to win with?
Hard to gameplan?
It seems like TMMs applying a lot of different standards here. I agree with more than half of it, but that Lei placement calls the whole thing into question.
Then again, I know nothing.
Yeah exactly. I was thinking the same. His tier list is all over the place because he applies different criteria to different characters. He either needs to make 4 tier lists for each of these criteria, or choose one and then go from there. I generally agree with what he said but the list is still not very accurate because it's too chaotic
I agree, i find the result too much confuse and chaotic to read
From my understanding her uses "hard to master" as an indicator. Ling is 10 times harder to learn than Kazuya, but much harder to master.
@@santh9115 did you mean 10 times easier?
@@FlyingFoxDK1 no i think he means Ling is harder due to more moves to remember and use in right time, but Kazuya only have a bunch of tools, that makes him quite predictable and without a solid basis on movement you can't use them effectively.
New Tekken player. Just want to say thank you for all your vids. They’ve been really helping me.
Lars is harder then people think you got to know all his transitions and stances
I agree, I'm a feng main and hes the same way, this list shouldn't only be as how you fight against the character but the learning curve of each one and the work u put into getting a victory
Stances ain't that hard tho like half of the cast have it
Thank Harada for releasing this vid
And gigass finally being on top of a tier list, incredible
gigASS ahaha i get it.
I see what you did there lmao
I'd also put Bryan WAY lower. There's no way that playing Bryan is comparable to playing Lee, Akuma, or even Hwoarang.
The problem is, what kind of difficulty are we talking here? Difficult to play (Lee, Lei, Akuma, Steve), difficult to defend against, (good Hwoarangs, good Ninas, good Steves, Xiaoyu, Eddy at low to medium level), or difficult to succeed with against higher levels of play? (Bryan, Bears, Eddy, Anna)
Three words: Taunt Jet Upper. The hardest execution move in the game.
It's difficulty to win with, mainly(although TMM is a bit inconsistent with that). Execution seems to come second. Because it's hard to do one or two things with a character doesn't mean they're hard to win with overall.
carlomagneto Taunt stuff in general is hard. I‘m a trash ass Bryan player and opening people up can be hard as shit sometimes.
I usually try to stay mid range and poke away with 3+4 and whatnot just fishing for counter hits lmao
Or going for cheesy orbitals
@@carlomagneto
Taunt Jet Upper is indeed the hardest thing to do, but it's not really necessary to master at any level of play. Hell, it's so rare to see it be done anyway.
Akuma, for instance, requires execution constantly.
Bryan requires high execution to do combos in general. Try his magic 4 for example. Or the optimal ff4 combo. Canceling during combos is also hard. But as a bryan main i can tell you, the hardest thing the character has is the gameplan. I can explain in detail but it would take me much time to do it. Im from a region with high level tekken and gosh, sometimes i have a hard time keeping the neutral game with Bryan. There is no other way than being a master at footsies. His offensive and rushdown is below average.
As a Xiao main, I’d use the same argument as you used for Hwo. Her stuff is locked behind stances, and has some wild setups that need to be done to play her. She’s not as difficult as Hwo execution wise, but Hwo gets away with crazy mixups, and Ling gets away with her stance dodges. Then again, Ling has a lot of timing and hold f or b to set up her mixups. She’s made to trick the other player, so the Ling needs to maintain the balance of the match. She has some panic moves, but they are unsafe and, again, require the right follow up. I’d put her below Hwo, but not below Jack.
Lings are considered easy because at a low level they can just do shit into aop and not worry about frame advantage and at a high level assume their opponent guesses wrong on the oki set ups can literally turn the game into a one player game. That and b1 is incredible at a low level. Ling regardless of level of play is never really hard
Yeah but hwo stance doesn't crush fuckin mids
dont even compare bewteen ling and hwo lol ling is way easier and i play both of them hwo is 10 times harder then ling
@@lovinglife995
Wtf are you people on
@@realbr1koo what do u mean?
You seriously put law four tiers higher of difficulty than lei wtf?
Law has many problems outside low level play where people just spam reactable lows. On top of that, he's much more popular, meaning people know how to counter him better. He may have a few cheap tools, but he requires above average execution and fundamentals to play outside low level. Even intermediate players know how to counter him. Lei, on the other hand, is rare, doesn't take much execution, and pretty much everything else TMM said.
@@dantemeriere5890 Did you even watch the video? TMM argument was lei is so complicated that it makes him easy lets be honest now that statement makes no fucking sense!
@@jjwrx8 Which part of the statement is not making sense? TMM spent so much time talking about how the difficulty of Lei is dumped on the opponent to block his strings that you get free wins. What else could he have said to make it understandable for you?
@@Eqvil I look at the whole list and its a shit show. You sound logical but he is definitely trolling with the list.
There should be a distinction between hard to learn and hard to utilize. For example Lei is very hard to learn because of his complexity, but when you do learn enough of his moves you can just do them for free because that's the nature of his character. Mishimas are the opposite, very easy moves to learn but the execution and options are so limited that most of your time goes into learning when and how to use their moves instead of what moves to use.
To me season 2 jim is easier than kazuya
Jim? lol
Terminator 0326 he’s an Aris fan ♿️♿️♿️
Oh, he's one of those stoners. @@Menace__
Nimmy Jeutron
Jim Belushi
This video in a nutshell
"Have you seen this string before? *EHGHH*
Who should make a lag tier list. That's what ranked is all about, you can't even play the same on a certain connections.
yo highlight this mans comment...... there are characters who get away with murder online
Law *cough* *cough*
@Sarincrow So true. Yesterday I and opponent had 2 wins and game lagged for a second when we were with about 20 hp and I was about to use shining wizard. I lost because lag skipped my last f input lol
I would put Hworang on the same level as Steve because you can't defend in flamingo stance. You're very vulnerable just to access 1/2 your attacks
You could be a comedian, great comedic timing and original.
There is too much salt in this comment section. Great video Adrian 😂👍
"Have i had you before? Then don't call me by my Christian name."
@@GucciCoochie38e7hde That sounds familiar. What is that a reference to?
@@Ghostly-00 gangs of NY
@@GucciCoochie38e7hde Ohhhh I love that movie. I remember now, the butcher said that to the girl. Thx
This comment section is cancer
all of the reasons Lei isn’t hard is why I love him.
Thank you for existing. Playing a hard character doesn't make you more of a badass.
@@varghest4641 I agree. I would say the (really?) diffucult stuff you can do with a character make you effectively badass.
all the 2 people in the world who main bob or alisa are gonna be so dissapointed
Chanel is throwing a fit for Alissa and Eliza
Alisa is quite a popular character tho
2 people? Come on, don't be mean. There's like 8
@@MrNineFive Yeah they are very common in low-intermediate ranks. I've always a hard time telling which moves are low/mid/high with Bob because I never labbed him lol. Very annoying. Kinda same with Alisa. But Alisa you see a lot more online than Bob so I got used to her a bit.
As an Alisa main who is highly entertained by TMM's passion for Tekken and his content, I would have to agree...
i think he is really unfair with eliza...
My julia is vanquisher and most of the other characters i play are at yellow ranks . I tried to pick up eliza, i learnt and can do most of her shit(since i am the kind of person that spends 90% of my time in practice mode) but i got demoted all the way to light blue ranks with her. The execution you need to hit confirm some moves into combos or dmg, her 10 frame punish, the clean hit on the low to get the upper (and the fact you get launched if you fail the clean hit or delay the 10 frame punish) made it so hard for me to play her... Sure i did blow some people up when i dive kicked their asses until they tilted out the game or when they did not punish me at all but i eventually dropped her because i could not do half of the things i practiced in a real match even after a lot of games. I think she is easier than geese and akuma but still a lot harder than he gave her credit for..
teo 16 HMU. I can show you some Eliza stuff👊🏿
@@k-naychaproductions3931 i got back at her the past few days and i am doing a lot better( i guess i kind of evolved as a player to while playing other characters). You have some really cool videos i subscribed and will be watching!!
can you explain to me why bryan feels the best to me in every tekken, some told me it has something to do with long range, which character would fit my bryan playstyle in tekken and other games, i also played a lot of kilik in soul calibour
M8 you have been complaining abut the same characters/strings/stances since tt2, surely after all this time you could have learned to overcome them ? tt2 came out in 2012.
10 years later when tt3 comes out mainman will still be complaining about the same shit
You can still not like something even if you can deal with it
maybe because hes spot on and those characters are harder to deal with for the average player since tt2?
@@huntersthompson1563 in what why are those characters harder to deal with then in tt2 ? they are the same characters
Unless your talking about new players that started with tekken 7 then yeh its tough to deal with for new players.
@@someguy666 no i mean it doesnt really matter that hes complaining about them sinse tt2 because those same characters move sets are still hard to deal with effectively than the average character even if you know how to deal with them. Katerina for example.
@@huntersthompson1563 I could say the same about Kaz 50/50's. Or any character at all. The point is this guy is completely biased, just put all the characters he plays at the top and everything else at the bottom with no real criteria. Personally when I started Tekken, Kaz was the character I despised the most. I didn't know what was going on and they all spammed the same moves. Nowadays it's one of my favorite matchups but my point is everything is hard to deal with for the average player. We all have matchups we're more comfortable in than others. Wether it be because you also play that character or you have a buddy who mains them. In the end it's all about each individual and their experience with the game. You might agree with TMM because you also main Mishimas, or because you don´t know how to handle a Xiaoyu but he isn't 'spot on'.
"you have the most complicated character" "can't say that's difficult"
You're taking things out of context. He said "You have the most complicated character in the game when it comes to defending against her" so he's saying her difficulty level goes down due to how great the opponent's defense needs to be in order to fight her
Exactly. By quoting TMM, you proved his point. It's easier to win with a more complicated character.
See your guys points are fair enough the problem is there was no consistency in what difficulty meant in this video because at some points it was hard to win with (in which case by definition wouldn't you just pick the lowest tier character) and some cases it was hard to play the character due to execution/moves, so the list is meaningless
That makes 0_Fucking sense and you know it
@@someguy1000009 The list IS meaningless, people just got onto his ass about making a list enough to the point that he did.
TMM 2020: alisa in trashcan
TMM 2028: my daughter loves alisa. A character very difficult to learn.
Yo straight up, props to you for putting respect on how hard playing Bryan is, idk if I agree with him being harder than Kazuya but I'm not mad that you put him there and as a Bryan main, I can see why you day so
Not trolling but what makes him so hard? Ive never been able to grasp it, he isnt easy but I just don't consider him "hard". He has very good moves overall for most situations imo.
@@FerventFourEyes really bad punishment, very few panic moves, slow pressure tools, backsway makes kbd difficult which really hurts a spacing character, taunt starts feeling more and more important as you get higher up there, really whacky tools in general, his cheese moves stop working at yellow ranks, his best throw requires a weird cancel, really awful in certain matchups especially if the opponent has an i13 ws launcher, inconsistent range on some of his keepout moves. I wouldn't say he's the hardest in the game, not as hard as Lee, anyway. Unless you really want to land taunt shit all day.
@@_Heel_ When you put it like that it makes sense now, thank you. Any Bryan I've played that was halfway decent gave me a very good challenge so now I have even more respect for them.
I just started playing and I’ve been using noctis. Very happy to see he’s at baby brains easy. I knew I chose the right character.
@@AlexanderDietstein your delusional
@@AlexanderDietstein tf. wdym?
putting xiaoyu in the easy tier, really?
Defending against Xiaoyu is so different from playing against other characters so most people don't know how to properly defend against her bs
Vergo If you try Jack without looking at his move list you'll be able to find good moves like db 1, df 2, maybe even simple juggles, now try to do the same with Xiao, she requires some self-knowledge hehe.
@@Backdoorsk that doesn't disprove my argument at all
Vergo TMM tier list is about char difficulty (in my opinion, it's about how hard it is to use a char, but TMM didn't explain what type of difficulty he meant), Abdullah didn't aprove TMM putting Ling on easy tier(which I agree). You said most people don't know how to defend against her (true), but that's not what the list is about, so your argument is misguided, she actually is hard to pick and play(way harder than Kazuya to be honest).
@@Backdoorsk if no one knows how to defend against her all you have to do is learn ten moves and it's a free win basically (i'm just explaining tmm's reasoning on why she is relatively easy)
When u put Bryan on top. I thought its gonna be purely based on execution and even then bryan has only one demanding thing which TJU. EZ gameplan and EZ execution. Same with Jin and Devil Jin sure they require execution but the core gameplan is simple. There is no consistency in this tier list. Its quite garbo even tbh
what do u call core gameplan? ur own hability to plan on and play tekken? we are here to talk about the characters not our own core gameplay. Tekken is not about doing the same shit with the same character over and over again. U need to change that plan u are talking about (core gameplan) everytime u play against someone new with his own gameplan. So characters are hard depending of their tools and how hard is to put those tools on the game taking advantage of em, And mishimas are hard as fck. Besides, everyone knows how to defend against em as they are the most known characters of tekken history.
@@gtilted3634 I thought about giving you a meaningful response. But I can tell you are merely a bad player and all fighting game concepts go above your head. Enjoy staying a green rank kazuya.
@@JinTheAceStar its been a while since i played online seriously but i managed to achieve conqueror jin kazama a few months ago in PC so... i dunno maybe u are better and my words are stupid, oy maybe u are the green rank one and u keep writing dumbshit. Whatever, u are a narcisist douche bag. Enjoy ur meaningless answering people from youtube with that prepotency.
No punic moves, df2 is -6 on block, qdb qbf moves, no real mixup
Because Bryan's close range game and punishment is absurdly weak.he has one good punisher and that is jet upper and it has --forward backward 2 input try doing that in a real match on just frames.And he is very difficult to pressure with once your snakedge starts getting blocked and snakedge can be blocked on reaction it's 29 frames it's not like hellsweep that is 19 frames.His whole game is based upon is his taunt the only thing that makes him good but try doing that in a real match.
If you listen close enough you can hear the Lee Chaolan mains flexing their sick nutty gains
You are absolutely correct
My main Feng is obviously the most difficult character and also a testament to my ridiculous skill.
VikingII He’s unga bunga to the max
Ah, yes. Your main is the most difficult. Just as everyone else's is...
hobo lei mains FeelsBadMan (im a lei main too)
Feels good to be a Lee main.
You guys are troopers
Props to all Lee mains
Sometimes I feel bad for beating lee players cuz Its so obvious they are strugling with difficult combos. They never ki charge and never rage quit
Playing a hard character doesn't make you more of a badass, but sure. imo Lee is the hardest character in the game, and any good Lee player will get my respect.
@@crazy911wman lol I hit 3 mist step cancels in combos pretty consistently... Doesn't mean I'm not a dick. Nobody ki charges with lee because he has two fantastic taunt options instead, and default ki charge animation looks like ass.
Rage quitting is for pussies, but as a Lee sub, I'm still a dick and will happily taunt my opponent.
And remember: combos don't mean shit in this game compared to other stuff like Acidrain, ws23 into ff3, 33 hit confirming, b11~f~n pressure are all harder than his overestimatedly difficult combos.
Eliza is easy!
Opponent starts backdash:
Eliza is extremely hard!
And is korean back dashing easy😂😂
@@aryanshyam8933 no i mean after d1 you just do single backdash and thats all? u beat every her mix up situation
he mprovised the list. Didnt follow the same rules for everycharacter.
But i think each character deserves a different point of view.
So do you want him to apply all the same rules or do you want him to give each character their own critique.
I main Nina, Xiayou and Briyan, and Briyans execution is the easiest..!
Who the fuck is Briyan?
i main bryan and my friend mains nina ....
and if you wanna play bryan it's really hard to master combos , and the tuant needs god level excution to get one ...
in the other hand nina is way more easy wiff punish or launch any one also it has fast recovery frames so she can do lot's of shit right in front of your face ... so if you're losing to bryan it means you're a noob at defending yourself espicially when you can't defend his snake edge
i dont believe that you main bryan if you dont even know hes name
0:00 song?
"kazuya very hard"
theres no point in watching any further. this tier is gonna be a joke
he says it because he mains him
All mishimas are above average,not more than that
Yall just cant accept the fact that he is a hard player, go use kazuya and try to do electrics and combos guarantee you'll give up on trying yall probably use noctis
You're right. Once you learn how to do f, N, d, d/f consistently you move out of beginner ranks with Kazuya.
Your description for Hwo can apply to Lei.
thanks I thought that too
@Mahamoudhagi so you and the other thousands of player would lab lei i dont think so thats why he is easy in tekken 7
Lei has way more stances than Hwo
Bob = Underrated Character
And also i have something to say : JIN IS N O T MORE DIFFICULT THAN YOSHI.
Anna easy? Hmm.. No. Still surprises me how people think that Nina is harder to use than Anna. This is such dated mentality. If we talk pure execution fundamentals then yeah Anna can be seen as "easy" but everything else with the character is an uphill battle. Unsafe, worst punishers in the game, lacking good mids, linear, shitty hitboxes, no panic moves, no running moves etc and the list goes on into oblivion. Compare her moves to Nina that has moves such as uf1, db2 (safe CH launching tracking mid with sick range), db3, d2, df2 (safe 15f launcher), uf21, qcf1(which was pretty much stolen from Anna's core kit), SS+1, WR 1+2 which is +4 on block etc and you realise how much of a struggle it is for Anna to compete with Nina. Nothing about Nina is that hard except multiple ws1 in combos, but it's not even a crucial part in her gameplay to be successful with her. How can MainMan even have an opinion of Anna when he clearly hasn't even played her? Yeah, lol. Try again.
Oliver Holmgren I play both and I think Nina is harder just because of her execution but Anna isn’t that hard to me
@@keytho1002 I play them both as well and there is no "execution" to Nina really besides multiple ws1 in combos. Nina has a way easier time than Anna, especially in higher ranks.
F for the Panda, Bob, and Alisa players
ZERO RESPECT
Fuck bob and alisa
@@TKZhyon fuck alisa
lol spamming hell sweeps is not hard. Neither is mixing up ff3 and hell sweeps. #miguelmain
*sidesteps*
Implying difficulty is based on moveset
@@tonson5214 gets hit by 14 frame homing df2 which gives a full launch on counter hit
Kazuya's df2 is a scrub-killer move tbh punishable even...
@@MegaAntimateria so are nina strings go figure
19:00 - 19:20 somebody needs to meme this ASAP 😂😂😂😂😂 I died 😵
Lab em all HAHA
What character got roasted the hardest in this video? I think Lei did 😂
That hobo story made that roast the hardest 😂😂
I'm just watching this now and thanks. I'll play lucky Chloe and Katarina on hitbox.
I was listening to this video thinking the scream @ 6:13 was a sound effect.
Switched back to find it was you. LOL