Historian Tareq Baconi on the Origins, Goals and Future of Hamas | Amanpour and Company
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- Many Israelis, and people all over the world, are still trying to understand where the October 7th barbarity came from. Tareq Baconi is an analyst, historian and author of “Hamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance,” and has written about the organization for years. He joined Michel Martin for a conversation about the group's complex historical and political dynamic.
Originally aired on October 25, 2023
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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Great interview, and I’m glad the speaker was allowed to clearly articulate his points without rude interruptions.
I disagree, he should have been stopped @4:00 when he tried to legitimize Hamas and spin a fantasy that "terrorism" doesn't exist by mis-defining it. Building an argument on such a massive false premise collapses his house of cards. People like the interview because he is saying what people want to hear. People don't want to learn, they want to have their biases reinforced. A good interview requires being challenged. This can be done respectfully, and not in the crazy American media manner. Instead the interviewer raised her questions that were pre-written, not spontaneous. This guy is just another partisan, not an impartial historical observer. We all have biases, it's important to identify our own biases, define our terms openly, etc.
Michelle always does a fantastic job of talking with people. Whether people agree with what Tariq said or not, their exchange was calm and professional unlike so many interviews we have to endure.
👍👍
Agreed! I always enjoy her interviews.
Yes, but there is nothing to "agree" with. He is a historian. What he is saying is factual history.
It depends on where a historian get their information from. As Israeli history revisionist) Dr. Benny Morris says you can't rely too much on oral history as it gets distorted quickly when passed on from one person to another. It's much better to rely on written documents say stored in archives and from multiple sources (e.g. different people, different locations/countries etc.) talking about a specific event. Historians typically have to wait decades to get access to sensitive information. After the USSR fell numerous historians from outside of Russia were allowed in for several years to get access to archives and other information that wasn't available before. Same for being allowed to go to locations that were prohibited before.
Agree. Most of the pro-Palestinians sound like maniacs, little logic, no facts except that Palestinian people suffer, a pattern of speaking louder and louder and of not listening to any questions. It is usually simply a rant.
Let’s talk about their CHARTER
The amended charter.
I agree. It's clear what their goal is and I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian woman whose sole purpose is to take care of the house, raise the kids and support her husband in whatever hair brained ideologies he supports. There are certainly some educated non-violent Palestinians but there aren't enough of them (or are too afraid to) make positive change happen.
I agree. It's clear what their goal is and I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian woman whose sole purpose is to take care of the house, raise the kids and support her husband in whatever hair brained ideologies he supports. There are certainly some educated non-violent Palestinians but there aren't enough of them (or are too afraid to) make positive change happen.@@shirleyashanti3031
@@shirleyashanti3031 Amended sincerely, or amended simply for propaganda purposes, just for show?
I am so thankful for this program and its guests. I WANT to be be a better informed and more empathetic citizen of our global community and I feel like this type of scientific, historical, equitable programming is helping me to grow in that direction.
I stand with EVERY human being who has experienced loss, hardship, difficulty, and injustice at the hands of any group who claims, without official and nonviolent support, to represent them or their interests or those of their ‘enemies’.
Yah be compassionate to Hamas lol. They won't be compassionate with you tho.
If only everyone looked at it like you do. Unfortunately there are cultures and people who only care about their own. They either haven't been taught to step out of their tribalism (some cultures), or just don't have empathy (some individuals).
@@tuttifrutti5300 Their lack of compassion does not diminish my commitment to show kindness and empathy to those who are affected. Their darkness does not diminish my light.
@@jaykay415 *sigh*. It’s me and you then, friend. Thanks for being here. ❤️
@@brooklynnchick sometimes we show compassion and empathy to hard-hearted people and it changes them. I've experienced that - so hang in there. Don't be blind to what you're facing, but stick with your beautiful approach overall.
This is excellent. Many of the questions were framed within the context of standard US media pro-Israel bias, but with a few exceptions , the guest was actually given the opportunity to respond, which pretty much never happens in US mainstream media.
I was thinking about that too. Perhaps she was playing devils advocate asking the questions that the conditioned masses would expect.
Agreed that it was overall an excellent interview and that Michel Martin did frame questions from a US mainstream perspective, but there are still reasons for alarm bells with Hams. I cannot seriously believe that they want an Islamic state in which people live religiously virtuous lives and at the same time want equal rights for those "of all three religions." First, what about those of us who have left Abrahamic religion and/or are part of another tradition? Second, religion being in any way tied to government is just plain bad news; I've yet to see a single counterexample. (And I do not make a Zionist exception: Christopher Hitchens had many problems, especially in the last decade of his life, but when he was spot-on when he said that Israel should have been established as a state for Jews rather than a Jewish state.)
I find this program exceptionally informative and unique. From Christianne herself, to every interviewer, they speak directly to the source and asks bold, intelligent questions. So many programs report on the people this program interviews.
if they REALLY wanted to speak to the source, they would interview Mosab Hassan Yousef.... The son of the co-founder of Hamas. NO ONE knows them better than Mosab. This guy is a mere spectator with a prejudiced point of view as an OUTSIDER.
Excellent interview!!! Very enlightening. Let's have more INTELLIGENT interviews like THIS ONE.
Thanks for tuning in.
This "historian" chooses to omit some pretty relevant facts when it suits him. For example. he mentions that Hamas is democratically elected, then the interviewer has to point out "in 2006". Every thing he says is "technically" correct, but then she constantly needs to prompt him to actually give the context.
I remember when they were throwing rocks, and the response was way out of bounds. Always will be until the Earth opens and swallows people indiscriminately in that entire land. Divide and conquer always hits a wall. It is written.
Your little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Do bone up a bit more on the historical details before making sweeping assertions :)
Michelle Martin was just a carrier & apologist for Izr@heli propaganda lies... -- just like Amanpour & all Western journalists. But *remember* !!: Izr@hel *doesn't* control the MSM & the MSM journalists in the Euro-West. Izr@hel *doesn't* !!
Perhaps practicing what one is preaching would help here. What, specifically, do you mean?
@@davidkoh7097
Actually the responder is quite knowledgeable. Hamas won that election (2006) using brutality and fear. They threw phatah rivals from the roofs and broke the legs of other pahatah nember, so can not walk to vote. This caused the vast majority ph phatah member to flee from Gaza.
great questions from the journalist here, real and important
But Hamas is offering only one solution-- a religious Islamic dictatorship, which is also a form of colonialism, a religious colonialism.
I’d t that what the settlers are doing in the occupied territories?
You mean in Israel? No, no one is forcing anyone to practice or not practice any particular religion. If Hamas wants to set that up then why don't they do so now? What's stopping them? They've gotten billions of dollars in foreign aid. They've chosen to use it to build bombs and tunnels
@@judykinsman3258I don’t see an Israeli crowd praising settlers and cheering for them when they attack Palestinians. But I see a muslim crowd cheering for Hamas.
Why do you assume they want a dictatorship? and that's not the definiton of colonialism, colonialism, the palestinians are indigenous to historic Palestine.
@@ShadowSis And Jews are indigenous to the land and predate Muslims' presence there, dating back to 1000 BCE, which I'm sure you know. This guy said clearly that Hamas wants the entire area to be controlled by Muslim rule.
Excellent reporting and so helpful as so few experts on Palestine and Hamas are being interviewed about the history of the conflict. He is very astute and well-versed in the subtleties. Watch the end, "self-determination"--isn't this what we want for all peoples of the world?
Exactly. Self-determination is what every free person wants.
Please go study why the Palestinian do not have their own land - read real history without bias. Look up the definition of "terrorist" and see if that doesn't exactly describe Hamas, ISIS and Hezbollah. Read about how Jordan came to be a country - just like Israel - there was no "Jordan" before the British were ready to leave that region. Read about Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1947~1948 and why they didn't want 2 states (Israel and Palestine) - which Arab country wanted Gaza and West Bank for themselves instead for Palestinians. Read the history of assassinations of Arab leaders who moved towards peace with Israel. Read and think for yourself and don't let these bias "historian" present things out of context and make up definitions.
@@jungyum7448yes! Agreed! If Israel was never formed if they would have lost the Arab Israeli war, I don’t think there would be a Palestine. The Palestinians did have that option in 1948 before the war. If the leaders at that time would have agreed to two states…makes me wonder. Overall, I’m still learning, so I could be wrong. All leaders in this area failed the Palestinians.
@@bmleiv yes, the only people who agreed to 2 states in the region in 1947 were the Israelis and now they are getting blamed for the consequences created by other Arab nations' choices and actions.
A big thing that people aren't making explicit and wasn't obvious to me a few weeks ago was that the occupied territories are not referring to gaza. They're not even referring to the West bank. It is referring to Israel proper. So she dropped the ball on this one. Hamas and pretty much all the pro Palestinian people are saying that Israel is essentially illegally occupying its own country. So ending the occupation would mean forcibly removing or murdering the 9 million or so people, or at least the majority of those people who are jews, from their own countries in favor of people who-- whatever their original claims to the land might be-- haven't lived there for generations. Yes we can quibble about this area where the settlers have encroached or specific parts of the Border but let's be clear that what we're talking about is not self-determination but the annihilation of the Jews in israel.
This conversation concludes with what I think most people already believe. For peace to exist, Palestinians need their own state.
Listen more carefully to how he contradicts himself
Are you referring here to the lack of clarity about Hamas's 2017 governing principles amendments or something else?
@MrTeff999 Amen
Anyone who calls a Jewish state fascist loses credibility the moment he opens his mouth. Secondly, he says there's a symbiotic relationship between Hamas and Israel in that Israel allowed Hamas to govern independently and then he says there will be no peace until Palestine can govern independently. Explain this to me! @@ohallright2021
If you look at the maps of Israel/Palestine drawn up over time since 1948 the land cannot be drawn up so all Israelis and all Palestinians can live in just two separate areas. The proposed maps always show each group is broken into multiple areas. Like having France all chopped up into smaller areas. Plus this is not as much a political problem as a trauma/psychological problem as both sides have been heavily traumatized through their histories,they both see themselves as shame based/victimhood societies and looking to the past for validation and self worth, rather than to the future the way more modern countries look.
Fantastic interview. Thanks for presenting a clear historical context for the current war.
Baffled by this man's issue with the use of the word terror organization. The word terrorism never implies the use of terror without an explicit political aim. It implies the use of terror to achieve a political aim. Hamas is precisely a terror organization.
And so is the far right Netanyahu government. The criterion of who is labelled as a terrorist organisation should be applied across the board.
@codybutler658 this is where we can agree to disagree. It's is bugger terrorism to arm settlers with $3.4 million of worth fully automatic weaponry and carrying out genocide are most virulent form of terrorism.. Hamas is a resistance movement and if someone wants to pull out the rug from underneath them, they will have to seek political and not military solution to end the conflict
Thank you for the nuanced perspective.
Excellent interview Michelle Martin. Tareq … articulate but wrong about Hamas. Hamas practices resistance for the violence towards Jews. Resistance did not need to include the brutal murders of 1,400 Israeli civilians, and the kidnapping of 200+ people, which they still hold. It was despicable they recorded the brutal murders and abductions and taunted the victims families with them. If Hamas/Palestinians wanted peace they would release the hostages. - The part about money Hamas used for arms and violence instead of bettering the lives of the Palestinian population is illogical, reprehensible and speaks volumes about their true intent … They don’t care about the people of Palestine, their lives are expendable, they only care about violence and power and are drunk on the intention to destroy Israel and remove all Jews, genocide.
Israel has around 8000 Palestinian prisoners in Jail most of them without even trails. So why not Israeli releasing them unless you have this deep racism that Israeli lives are much important then a palestinian one.
This man wrote an entire book about Hamas, is a historian and analyst specialized in that region, yet you assume you know better. If you read the 2017 Hamas charter, they write that they struggle against the Zionist occupier, not the Jews. And they say that no one should be persecuted because of their religion. Look it up!
the interviewer did not catch as she should have two major misrepresentations by Baconi:
1) in minute 3:30 he says one cannot say Hamas is a terrorist organization because it suggests that Hamas is engaging in violence for the sake of violence. The intervewer should have known that terrorism is never defined as (and therefore never suggests) violence for the sake of violence but rather is defined as illegitimate violence as a form of messaging for the sake of producing certain political goals or influencing political opinions held by the pubilc (which is the objective recipient of the message). That is exactly what Hamas does.
2) in minute 3:55 he says the occupation is illegal according to international law, this is also a misrepresentation. The occupation is merely a resulf of the Arab belligerent forces losing battles for their own territory which resulted in the IDF establishing stable and enduring control of said territory, such as the occupation of Japan. In other words belligerent occupation is an issue of fact. The interviewer should have questioned on what basis Baconi asserts that the occupation is illegal. There is no competent legal authority which has established that this occupation is illegal.
@@stephanieschwartz5391 1) false, Hamas engaged in a military raid and took hostages to exchange against the thousands of Palestinian hostages that Israel detains without trial and charges. The goal was not to turn Israeli population against their government (they already were lol) as to reach the political goal of freeing themselves from occupation. Israel on the other hand is starving and carpet bombing 2.3 million people so that they turn against Hamas. Classic terrorism. (As well as classic genocide.)
2. False. See UN-rapporteur Fransesca Albanese. It is an illegal occupation and as per the Oslo accords Israel should be working towards a two-state solution. Instead it has only intensified its brutal occupation and built more settlements. Israeli leaders have been quite open about wanting all of historic Palestine (Likud party charter). Also if you want to talk history, the Zionist militias started ethnically cleansing Palestine, committing massacres and destroying Palestinian villages, BEFORE the Arab countries went to war with them in May 1948. The Zionist project has always been to conquer all of Palestine and expell the native population. (Not talking about the "homeland" Zionists)
@@stephanieschwartz5391 this should be a top comment and not buried here. I would like to add that there is a Hebrew expression for what happened once in response to the first Gaza violence years ago: it is not mowing the lawn. This is a 'free translation' that has been crafted to incite emotions. It is also no policy. This phrase I noted over and over in the more articulate, more intellectual responses that are yet deeply ideological. As you pointed out, there are many, more grave linguistic twists that Dr Baconi uses -- in line for the President of the board of "Al-Shakaba: The Palestinian Policy Network" that he is and which was omitted in the introduction.
Thank you for this insight, sounds very informed and nuanced. Surprised it is not viewed more!
Unfortunately, I am not surprised. Most MSM does not want to actually understand. The MSM would rather demonize and revert to hasbara talking points. This interview is a rare exception.
It is always important to learn history and it was helpful to learn of the
history of Hamas to get a better understanding of what is happening in Israel Palestine.
I first want to express my heart break over the violence and carnage. I have been actively involved in working for peace since I was 17, for 45 years.
I have, along with many thousands upon thousands, been out demonstrating for a ceasefire, visiting the offices of legislators, writing, speaking out in my communities etc.
My heart is with the people of Gaza and all of Palestine. I want an immediate cease fire, and end to the blockade, self determination for Palestinians, the right of return, complete justice peace avd equality.
I have no trouble supporting Palestinians and I have lived that commitment to supporting Palestinians
What I find very troubling is that no where in this interview did the historian express even a drop of concern for the 1400 Israeli human beings who were brutally and gruesomely murdered. That is deeply concerning, profoundly troubling and hurtful.
To continue. I know that what Israel is doing constitutes a genocide, and I grieve and mourn the death and destruction Israel is raining on Gaza and the rest of Palestine. What Israel is doing is also gruesome and horrible beyond description and utterly brutal. I oppose it with all my heart soul being and body. I condemn what Israel is doing in the strongest possible terms.
At the same time I totally and unequivocally condemn the atrocities that Hamas committed.
It would mean a great deal to me to hear the historian condemn this massacre. The great wrongs and atrocious behavior of Israel Do Not and Cannot justify the gruesome murders committed by Hamas.
I respectfully ask you to please condemn the massacre. You can do so at the very same time that you demand justice for your people and call out and condemn the atrocities Israel is committing.
If we want a solution and justice and peace for Palestine we cannot ignore what happened to Jews and Palestinians. We have to have a standard of ethical behavior that must be adhered to. This Israel government is anything but ethical and it has mostly been unethical and terrible since Israel began. And still that does not mean Hamas or anyone has the right to murder like Hamas did.
Like Palestinians, Jews like myself are scared. And many more Jews would join the struggle to free Palestine if people like yourself would unequivocally condemn what Hamas did.
I will continue to march write donate speak out for peace and justice and an end to the violence avs a just solution for all.
Once more I ask you to condemn this massacre of Jews and of the genocide Palestinians are facing in Gaza.
Let's work together in solidarity for peace and love a d justice for all
I’m pretty sure he did condemn it early on, listen again
It’s like asking Nat Turner and Harriet Tubman and Africans who were enslaved and oppressed during slavery to condemn the brutal killing of wh..ite civilians by enslaved Africans who were trying to free themselves from slavery.
I've noticed that a lot of people are commenting that Tareq is clearly not being neutral. He is a very well educated Palestinian and a member of western organizations such as the European Council of Foreign Relations and a Visiting Fellow at the Univ. of Cambridge. He focuses on the oil sector in the Middle East, Africa and Europe plus geo-politics of the region. I'm sure he has studied in the USA and UK. If he is Palestinian and he has family in the West Bank or Gaza, then I can't be surprised if he is careful with his words regarding his feelings for the Palestinians and Hamas. I wouldn't want to be a high profile Palestinian openly criticizing Palestine, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. for fear of repercussions. I don't think enough people put themselves in other people's shoes. Plus this person is impressively young, well educated and not being an uninformed back seat driver like 95% of the people viewing and commenting on this video.
Are not people who view this video interested in becoming more informed?
Should we expect critiques of the interviewee's presentation by experienced students of history, the Fertile Crescent, and/or propaganda to be without their own value or credibility?
" I wouldn't want to be a high profile Palestinian openly criticizing Palestine, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. for fear of repercussions."
That's a very telling comment.
" I wouldn't want to be a high profile Palestinian openly criticizing Palestine, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. for fear of repercussions."
True statement but there are a few brave people who are willing to take that risk, one of them is the author of the book "son of hamas". He also gave a couple of interviews recently about the current situation in gaza and he will tell you the harsh reality. He also give a speech at the UN in the past.
Thanks. I haven't watched him but I know who you mean. It takes incredible guts on the part of people like him. But it's these people who help change the world for the better. Unfortunately the assassins often go after your relatives instead to make your suffer even more. What we do to each other is horrific.@@OtagesBringthemhome_NOW
Important perspective on this complex and fraught situation.
We need engage and support the Palestinian people politically; we each and all deserve the right of self-determination. How is it that the US is willing to so blatantly support an apartheid state and the occupation and mistreatment of the Palestinian people? We Americans certainly cannot claim any moral high ground by such behavior.
Add why on Earth would you think that the Palestinians would have self-determination if it weren't for the israelis? Did you miss the part where they have not had an election since 2005? Maybe if they had add other elections, maybe if Hamas had used the billions of dollars in foreign aid to build schools and hospitals and their own desalinization plant and their own power plant so that the people they attacked weren't expected to provide such things to them - then maybe one could say that self-determination made sense. But there is nowhere in the Middle East - nowhere - other than Israel where there is any semblance of self-determination
Do you realize that there are no Jews living in Gaza and barely any Jews living in other muslim country in the world?
** 1.2 million Arabs live in Israel in peaceful coexistence, with full citizenship rights.
** Arabs in Israel can travel, worship, study in university, they are lawyers, doctors, judges on the supreme court, members of Israeli Parliament (The Knesset) and they can vote for elections.
** Women have rights, gays have rights, children have rights.
Tell me again which is the apartheid state?
It seems you missed the part when Israel undermined Palestinian elections and deliberately aided Hamas in the thought they would be able to control them inside Gaza. Your position is incredibly arrogant.@@soltantio
Complete, detailed , clear and perfectly spoken!!
Netanyahu wanted Hamas in Gaza to reject the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank to keep Palestine divided and make it impossible to implement a Palestinian state.
True
When a country cannot vote for a new government.. how do you call this ? Israel ruling or Hamas ruling ? Pls pls pls shout up !
I hate to break it to you, but being a historian does not automatically exclude you from also being an apologist. You can be both as this bloke clearly demonstrates.
IMO there is nothing wrong with being a historian and an apologist. There is no one in the world who can honestly say they are neutral in an opinion. Possibly indifferent but not neutral. Neutral is an absence of a preferance or favouritism, neutral implies a lack of interest or concern, or even callousness or an uncaring attitude.
@Stanisthemanis
What about Israeli historian apologist on 1948 and ethnic cleansing that was done. In Israel you will be thrown out of academia if you mentioned it.
Telling the truth does not equal being an apologist.
Well, Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for being a "terrorist" once. The US govt had him on a terror watch list until 2008. In the 1960's Russia helped fund the African National Congress, of which Mandela was the head of the military wing. Now Mandela is hailed as having been a "great leader", though the ANC killed people in bombings.
No single truth is indisputably true.
🔺This interview was very informative, but I also watched an interview by Jake Tapper, CNN and the Son of the HAMAS founder. Now I am conflicted because they are almost polar opposites. The Son explained that the Israeli Military must rid GAZA of HAMAS ! ⁇⁇⁇⁇
Thanks for mentioning this. I wonder which interview was broadcast first. It would be great to see this man on Amanpour as well.
There is so much of history Baconi is "spinning" out of context. Find out which countries did not want 2 state region in1947.
Please go read why the Palestinian do not have their own land - read real history without bias. Look up the definition of "terrorist" and see if that doesn't exactly describe Hamas, ISIS and Hezbollah. Read about how Jordan came to be a country - just like modern day Israel - there was no "Jordan" before the British were ready to leave that region. Read about Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1947~1948 and why they didn't want 2 states (Israel and Palestine) - which Arab countries wanted Gaza and West Bank for themselves instead for Palestinians. Read about the relationships between the PLO, Libya and other Arab countries in 1970s and 1980s and the conflict among the Arab countries. How the PLO was challenging Libyan government and Libya was glad about Israel - PLO conflict and took the onus off of them. Read the history of assassinations of Arab leaders who moved towards peace with Israel. Read and think for yourself and don't let these bias "historian" present things out of context and make up definitions and find out which countries or groups created the obstacles for peace.
@jetpowercom Baconi gave the wrong definition of terrorist - and implied that Hamas were not terrorists: However, his explanation of what they do for what reason, exactly fit the true definition of the word which originates from the French Revolution. Though words are not "cold hard math" to have an understanding, a contract and eventually trust - the parties (the world) must agree on the definitions of words and clauses. This was a very biased "Fox News" like interview - manipulating and very disappointing.
There was 1 regional group of people who agreed to the 2 state region in 1947 - the Israelis - I think that is well recorded - no matter who is telling history. Now they are being blamed for the consequences created by other Arab nations' choices and actions.
Look up Hamas' Son if you want to know Hamas. Someone raised by them might know more that someone who researches them.
✡️Paslms 122:6🇮🇱Pray for the peace of Jerusalem🇮🇱they will prosper that 💙✡️
Palestinians haven’t been at peace since 1948 , peace is a tool you colonisers use to keep the world silent, but resistance is necessary and Palestinians will fight for it 🇵🇸🍉 soon Palestine will be free , prepare your luggage in advance
Thanks to this program for actually giving a voice to Palestinian thinkers, giving in depth analysis, in contrast to the propoganda that we're getting from channels like CNN and MSNBC. This was a serious conversation that helps people to makes sense of the situation in Gaza and decide what they think for themselves.
It wasn't though. He was absolutely behaving like a spokesperson for Hamas, atrocious Behavior not just to the Israelis but also to their own people. She was a terrible interviewer and did not push him very much on anything, including what is essentially a final solution Nazi Style that is what Hamas explicitly says it wants
@@soltantioYou must be joking! The world is not stupid to know the actual facts!
The way he frames this you would imagine Hamas was a good, kind, moderate organisation that didn't, for instance, believe in death as a suitable punishment for apostasy. Also he highlights the fact that Israel's occupation is contrary to UNSC Resolution 242, that's item 1 in the resolution, but he completely ignores item 2 in the resolution, which requires the Arab side to recognise the legitimacy of Israel and stop trying to drive it out of existence.
UNSC Resolution 242 (1967) calls for:
"(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."
the arab side has recognized Israel. That's what the PLO did, that's what the Arab League peace proposal of 2002 (they have continuously endorsed it since then) was about. Israel is the one who abandoned the peace process, that has been Netanyahu's explicit political project. That was what got Rabin murdered.
in another video, 'A Three-Question Interview with Tareq Baconi', in the lat 15 seconds of the first minute, he situates palestinian activism as being a progressive movement. i think the celebration of the attack on the 7th within networks of pro-palestinian activism ought to have made clear to tareq & everyone else that his perspective privileges superficial rhetoric, designed to mask violent anti-semitism
It's like @oliverc1961 didn't hear or comprehend what Baconi said about Hamas' vision of a Palestinian state where Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together and treated equally. Maybe @oliver1961 is a Zionist sympathizer. @@NewLeftToday
His approach is as an academic expert, not as an advocate for Israel or Hamas. He has the Arabic language skill necessary for that.
@@deborahgordon1812 he got played
I am a regular viewer of this Podcast and find it more " informative and balanced" and not bent toward one side or another.
Please continue keep a balanced perspective, both sides are caught up in a strategy of mutual mistrust and dislike of eachother's right to exist.
Where is the space for peace?
Will this continue for another 70 years?
Amanpour has gone way beyond her CNN days ! We are grateful and feel better about the real facts
Thanks for such an excellent piece of interview. The information here helps me to look beyond the things I saw on controlled media and to make sense how the seemingly irrational hatred came about.
Keep in mind that it's another view, however cogently presented. Balance will require equally informed historians with a default Israeli background, Egyptian background, British background, Jordan background, etc. While it's critical to understand the intent of Hamas, their (currently loud) [edit] time in the region's] political history is just one of many - some of which must be illuminated to get a sense of the rights and wrongs of today's conflict and tomorrow's solution.
@@ohallright2021 - Thanks for your replay. For most of us who are not able to collect every single piece of historical and geopolitical facts, we can only try our best to get the gist of it. Ultimately, I have to use my sense of humanity and human rights to evaluate the conflict.
The flip side of holding every piece of historical trauma and so allowing the out of proportion vengeance and self protection, is just as blind and biased by emotion as not being fully informed.
This interview is praised by me is not because of the cogent presentation. It is rather because that it speaks the truth that is often muffled in everyday media by certain ruthless and bullying financial power. You know, the more I talk about it, the sooner I'll be getting on the "not to hire" blacklist.
There is so much of history this person is "spinning" out of context.
Please go study why the Palestinian do not have their own land - read real history without bias. Look up the definition of "terrorist" and see if that doesn't exactly describe Hamas, ISIS and Hezbollah. Read about how Jordan came to be a country - just like modern day Israel - there was no "Jordan" before the British were ready to leave that region. Read about Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1947~1948 and why they didn't want 2 states (Israel and Palestine) - which Arab country wanted Gaza and West Bank for themselves instead for Palestinians. Read about the relationships between PLO, Libya and other Arab countries in 1970s. Read the history of assassinations of Arab leaders who moved towards peace with Israel. Read and think for yourself and don't let these bias "historian" present things out of context and make up definitions.
If you really want to understand the harsh reality I can recommend you to read the book "son of hamas" son of a h leader, he has given several interviews on several channels about the current situation recently and the truth about that organisation, not a flowery watered down fairy tail.
Thanks for this. Valuable insights. The take home message is clear and shared by all ethical people, including many Jews in Israel and around the world. There has to be a genuine political process that recognizes the humanity of Palestinians and a right to exist freely. The right wing fascists in Israel are continuing to recreate cycles of violence rather than honest political negotiations.
Do you know Prof. Sam Vaknin? He is on YT. I agree with him that this is not a political problem. This is a psychological problem on both sides through centuries of trauma, victimhood and the willingness to die over forms of materialism - land, a river, a shoreline, a religious site, etc.. The entire world is now about acquiring as much material things (in different forms) as we can, yet it doesn't buy us tranquility, a sense of belonging. Instead it's about who has the most and best toys. The politicians that get involved are not first class thinkers.
There is a reason we call land "real" estate. It's the one possession we cannot destroy (with apologies to Mother Nature for lack of nuance in that statement).
Thanks for the reference to Vaknin. His point as you describe it deserves inclusion in the solutions conversation.
I suggest that if you want a truely balanced and very depressing reading of the historical reality you try talking to Prof. Benny Morris
Would Hamas, and all Palestinians, be willing to accept the plan that Arafat agreed to?
No because if you listen the interview as he said that’s not option because it was accepted before by the PLO and Israel broke the agreement and continued with illegal settlements and oppression with impunity from the international community.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice…
Very interesting.
The guy tried to distract from the fact that Hamas “the political party” hasnt had elections in 17 years
how do you expect to have an election in a place that is practically a prison?? i don't agree with the actions hamas have taken but having an election in a place so heavily occupied and controlled does seem quite difficult so it's not a completely unreasonable excuse
Actually, Baconi fully did address this very point: keeping Hamas in power allowed Israel to splinter the Gaza and West Bank Palestinians, undermined the possibility of a unity Palestinian government, and the occasional Hamas small arms caliber operations against the IDF allowed Israel to continue portraying Hamas as a terrorist organization on the international stage i.e. you cannot deal with a terrorist group.
When Hamas *won* the election, the U.S./West refused to recognize Hamas, so what's the point?
You can't have elections in Gaza alone without the West Bank, that would effectively fracture Palestine.
Actually, He did answer the question with the nuance needed... I initially thought he didn't, but any response given is not black and white for this topic.
7:30 Hamas would create an Islamic State where Muslims, Jews, and Christians will live equally under it. How can that be when Islam puts Jews and Christians into its own category called Dhimmi separate from Muslims? This is why Muslim countries always end up with such low proportions of non-Muslims. Most non-Muslims either convert or flee.
The sad reality is most Palestinians are actually secular. I think after years of being brainwashed especially in the Gaza strip have now became islamists.
Very informative.
Great interview with a lot of insights. I was just a bit shocked that the first response after “36,000 limbs being amputated in a span of a few months as a result of Israel’s military response to peaceful civil protests” was a questions about suicide b0mbs.
Reiterating that he is a “historian” is misleading it makes it sound as though he is an independent voice just giving the facts. He is incredibly biased. He gave ONLY facts that present Hamas as reasonable. BS not fair at all
From 1:18 , when he says "a virtuous islamic life", you can guess where this thing goes (or doesn't go). Lame.
"Religion poisons everything." - Christopher Hitchens
this guy is clearly not Islamic leaning. He is actually a moderate who won’t kneel to zionist pressure to change his facts. Well done to both the presenter and the historian. What most of the comments don’t get is to understand history you need not to be a bigot.
Ideally, he might have used quotes there, or phrasing to show he was noting a rule system rather than making a judgment. Sadly, we can't easily know his intent.
Great interview!
Thanks for tuning in.
"When consciousness is ill formed... Your price, is very easy to be paid for..." Marel Montes.
For Peace to exist, love must prevail. All militias cannot help
True. We will have peace when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate Jews - Golda Meir.
When a country is established on the basis of a religion or ethnicity, the manner in which it behaves….its government’s foreign and domestic policies and actions will, per force, rightly or wrongly, reflect upon that entire religion or ethnicity.
People are irrational.
They don’t distinguish between what a nation’s government does and the citizens of that nation.
For whatever reasons, the leaders of both Israel and the Palestinians have failed to find an equitable arrangement.
They want justice for themselves but don’t seem to care enough about the rights or needs of the other.
They can’t get beyond their tribal identities to see others as equally worthy .
There are tremendous pressures on both sides to remain intractable.
And the people…the inhabitants are caught in the middle.
Like people everywhere, they just want peace, security, a measure of prosperity and a chance to live their lives and raise their families in safety.
People become irrational when they are targets of propaganda.
Easily fired up.
Quick to join mass movements.
Quick to fall into an “us and them” mentality.
I’m dismayed but not surprised to see a rise in antisemitism after what happened on October 7th.
When excited, people discard nuances.
Not all Americans supported our deeds in Vietnam.
Not all Arabs or Muslims supported the attack on 9/11.
But Arab -looking Americans were beaten or killed for it.
Not all east Asian Americans are of Chinese descent.
But they were blamed for Covid and attacked on the street and their businesses were vandalized and shunned .
There are very many Jews who do not support the policies of the current Israeli government.
But even they can be targets of pro-Palestinian anger.
People are irrational.
I am shocked that CNN aired this. I thought we want to repress such rational discussion
Thanks for this interview.
They said he’s not a Hamas spokesperson though it seems as though at least de facto that’s what he is
Why because he studies it as an academic and tells the truth instead of lying about it like Zionist propagandists do?
Looks like you don't like history October 7 didn't happen in vacuum
@@mrabdi Oct 7 was a planned action and a choice of tactics. Those choices have zero justification other than to inflict terror. There is no "vacuum" that justified beheading children, raping, hostage taking. Zero.
Wish Amanpour and Company would interview Mosab Hassan Yousef, especially if they want to understand Hamas. There really isn't any other authority who can speak to their history and goals. This guy is an OUTSIDE SPECTATOR. I used to think Christiane was a true journalist with real integrity....I am SO disappointed now.
Where is the condemnation?
Why even provide a forum for a position that is historically inaccurate?
He's not a historian, he's an Hamas apologist.
Amazing: Hamas won the democratic elections, Israel is no longer an occupying force, and Israel exited in 2005. Gaza has a border with Egypt, which maintains the same blockade. No?
Blockading Gaza, controlling what goes in and out sometimes even chocolate, air and the waters is hardly an exit..
Very biased "historian". For example - "peaceful civil disobedience peace marches"? - they were led by Hamas operatives who fired at soldiers and laid IDEs near the fence to kill and mame. Besides it is clear today that this was a tactic to allow Hamas to gather intelligence using the crowd as a shield (as always...). This terror attack had nothing to do with freeing Gaza from a so called "blockade" (which by the way is rubbish because Gaza has Egypt, an Arab state on the other side, so Israel can't blockade it...) - the reason for this premeditated slaughter was to destroy, or at least postpone for a long time, the inevitable peace treaty and normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel. That's all.
IlAm does not permit living with non believers harmoniously with equal rights! This is the whole truth and only truth. Without saying it one is fooling oneself.
Does Zionism allow for peaceful coexistence?
What is the difference between Zionism and today's Israel?
@@anummasoud3849 Of course...every religious faith in Israel is free. At holiday season, every corner has symbols of every faith. People live side by side, and support and help each other. Arabs rescued Israelis on Oct. 7. Bedouins and Druise and Ba'hai and others have places of worship and an equal part in society. Israel is an amazing place, and Palestine could, too, be a light to the world, if the focus were more on building toward a future, not reliving the past or acting out of violence. Israel from its onset in the Declaration of Independence declared a desire to live in peace, with equality of all faiths...it is part of its founding principles.
@1805ugh while israel must be amazing and there is no denying the plurality of Israel and the model of coexistence that it presents, however, it can't attain peace with violent and most subjugating occupation of Palestinian : continuous land grabbing, settler violence, by lying seige to Gaza, by denying Palestinians the right of return and by enforcing apartheid whereby Arabs and Palestinians are subjugated to the endless libarynth of check points. The list whereby Palestinians and Arabs are treated as second class citizens and dehumanised goes on and on and is also apparent from how the conflict has unfolded. The problem is israels vision of exclusive peace for itself while denying basic rights to the Palestinians. Only regional peace will guarantee peace for Israel
@@anummasoud3849 Have a look at the demographics of Acre, Jaffa, Nazareth and Haifa. There's your answer. But there are other cities too.
he doesn't sound like a independent historian ...
Maybe that’s your bias?
Not all Jews are Satanists and not all the units are Jews. I salute and respect all the Jews that stand for peace. I respect and honor the Jews that take justice as a Compass, and not necessarily blindly side with anyone.
If Israel were to give Gaza its own sovereign state, would that allow for peace, or would it allow for Gaza to build power and continue the goal of driving Jews out of the region by furthering attacks on Israel?
of course it would "allow for peace". but it appears BOTH sides contain extremists who want to "clean up between the river and the sea". and BOTH sides are right now exclaiming to each other "look what you made Us do to You"! So, we've tried NOT giving Palestine a state for 75 years and here we are...
Same as ANC in South Africa
9:34 this doesn't make sense to me. you don't need to united gaza and west bank in order to have elections in gaza. come on....
Exactly! They had the same issues but somehow held the first election.
Every failure of Palestinians is always Israel's fault.
“ it’s the economy stupid “ & “ all politics is local “l; if Arabs had a modern economy instead of living like a thousand years ago peace between Israel and Palestinians would happen
Arabs must shed their pre modern religion and lifestyle … trade and commerce is the bridge that connects man
From the teaching of Irgun, Stern, Hagana.
I’m really not sure you can say this guy is impartial. As soon as Arafat recognised Israel and moves were made to begin establishing a Palestinian state, Hamas sprung up in opposition to this. They didn’t give Palestine a chance to succeed. The oppression and blockade is because of the constant attacks. As we know it only takes one suicide bomber to do so much damage. Wouldn’t you refuse entry to your country of people who were bent on destroying you?
Wouldn't you end the apartheid state, the military occupation and the stealing of the land, one settlement at a time, before expecting oppressed people to keep fighting for freedom just as the natives did before being completely annihilated by the european colonizers? or just as George Washington and his Continental Army fought British and loyalists alike, to free america from tyranny?
Hamas is not active in the West Bank. Yet, Israel built all those settlements and sent 700.000 Israeli's there so a two-state solution would become impossible. So who really refused to give the Palestinians a chance?
The Oslo accords were very unfair towards the Palestinians. And Hamas turned out to be right about Israel's bad faith. 30 years have passed and they only intensified their occupation on the West Bank, with more checkpoints, more settlers, more Palestinians kidnapped and killed.
Why hamas sprung up in opposition becuase of israel creat diffivtion betwen palestinian read history
@@esseabdi1095
Gaslighting. Blame the sheep that led the wolf eat it
Hard to find perspective in corporate media 👏 thank you
He not a historian. He is a Hamas spokeperson, justifying Hamas's terrorist acitions.
His dismissal of any effort to improve the daily lives of Gaza’s people in favor of militant resistance, as if there were no choice, is simply short sighted.
Granting all the unfairness of the blockade and control, had they developed humanitarian priorities, the West could be shamed into supporting liberation.
Violence insures only the violence we see now, which may well have been Netanyahu’s plan all along.
"the West could be shamed into supporting liberation" HAHAHHAHA. They can't even be shamed into stopping a genocide that people can follow live through social media.
Really, your expecting people to acquiesce to a life of imprisonment, lack of basic necessities that Israel blocks, and wars every few years.
He didn't quite just stick with the factual history...
Yes, he was also asked to share his opinion a couple times.
That's because he's an "analyst" and not just a historian (since a historian would generally stick to only the past and this violence is present).
Question for those informed on Islam: I thought Jews, Christians, and Muslims cannot live in equality under an Islamic government because the Quran requires some form of religious tax by Jews and Christians?
Historian? OK. Hamas apologist? Walking a fine line there. 😕
I’m sorry giving people like this airtime who is not neutral and spewing conjectures and propaganda in the vacuum of historical fact. The Gaza Strip is what they want the Israelis pulled out, why would Israel be expected to open the boarders and let them into Israel to work and shop? This kind of speak is just nuts
That bloke certainly doesn't sound like a historian. He's an apologist for Hamas. So much of what he says is completely untrue. Can't even begin to count. The bottom line is if the government of Gaza wasn't diabolical Hamas, Israel would not have closed its border. And Gaza would be an open-air prison even if the gates of Egypt and Israel were wide open because of the unsustainable population growth of this backward, economically backward society. Where would they go? Who would take them? None of their Arab friends, that's for sure. Look at Egypt. It wouldn't take even the sickest people in Gaza.
How is Hamas’s strategy going? Not very well. How can a people with such little power insist on keeping divided power amongst themselves, seeking to overturn and not work with Fatah in a united front. Hamas’s strategy, right or wrong morally, has been a crushing failure. Time to try something else than antagonizing Israel and pushing it ever more strongly into the arms of the extreme Right Wing who were itching to have this opportunity to carry out maximum violence on Gaza and full steam ahead with the settlements. While Hamas allies itself with Iran it forces the Sunni autocracies to align themselves with Israel over the demands of the Arab and Muslim street. Remember the PLO celebrating Sadaam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait? What did it get them, even more exiles and distance from the petro-oligarchy.
Hamas has effectively enshrined the annexationist wing of Israeli politics in power. They were the ones whose bombing campaign in the 90s gave Netanyahu his first Prime ministership over the yes, more peace-oriented Israeli Left who came closest to offering the Palestinians a deal providing something like a State in 2000 that Arafat should have taken. Was it the perfect deal? No. But it would have left the Palestinians in a far better condition than the are today. Rejection, the subsequent Intifada and then a bombing campaign totally destroyed the Israeli Left and pushed former progressives like Benny Morris into the other camp. What can Hamas actually offer for the next ten or twenty years as a long-term plan?
And of course Tariq has to skate over what living under a full-fledged Islamic regime would actually mean, he cannot point to one Arab or Islamist state in the region that functions as anything like a democratic polity respecting basic human rights. ISIS? Lebanon? Syria? Iran? Saudi Arabia or the UAE? And he has to pretend that a few cosmetic changes to the Charter in 2017 mean that Hamas does not plan for the Jews what it said it did before that. Who really believes that? Even though Hamas is not ISIS how can he be so sure that governance Hamas style would be so different? They have given no evidence that it would. It is what I would call the Stalinist/revolutionary decolonization problem: supporting a just liberation movement will end up with a worse form of government if that movement has no seeds of democratic liberal respect in it (like the ANC).
The host threw a bunch of imperialistic and anti-Palestinian talking points at him and professor Baconi knocked all of them out of the park.
As an "historian" he is certainly hitting all the talking points of Hamas and their supporters
Absolutely.
He is giving you historical facts actually, you give him quotation marks. But these are valid points, not some propagandist’s talking points
He is selective in his history of Hamas and their goals. He uses the talking points of colonialism and occupiers, which are false. Israel conquered that region in 1967 after being attacked on all boarders, it's their land and are letting the PLO stay in parts of it. Look no further than the surrounding Arab states for why Hamas and the Palestinians are persona non grata. They have a history of violence not restricted to Israel and Jewish people. Historically they have tried to assassinate the leaders of Egypt and Jordan after being accepted as refugees. From a historical perspective their barbarity is quenched when they are utterly defeated like the Germans and Japanese in WWII@@lelmath
Lol what
@@williammuseler5542 Know what else happened in 67? The USS Liberty!!
Thank you for this interview. There is such little reporting on the Palestinian occupation and what Palestinians have endured for decades. I am horrified that our government is sending military aid to Israel instead of negotiating for peace talks.
There is so much of history this person is "spinning" out of context. Find out which countries did not want 2 state region in1947.
Please go read why the Palestinian do not have their own land - read real history without bias. Look up the definition of "terrorist" and see if that doesn't exactly describe Hamas, ISIS and Hezbollah. Read about how Jordan came to be a country - just like modern day Israel - there was no "Jordan" before the British were ready to leave that region. Read about Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 1947~1948 and why they didn't want 2 states (Israel and Palestine) - which Arab countries wanted Gaza and West Bank for themselves instead for Palestinians. Read about the relationships between the PLO, Libya and other Arab countries in 1970s and 1980s and the conflict among the Arab countries. How the PLO was challenging Libyan government and Libya was glad about Israel - PLO conflict and took the onus off of them. Read the history of assassinations of Arab leaders who moved towards peace with Israel. Read and think for yourself and don't let these bias "historian" present things out of context and make up definitions and find out which countries or groups created the obstacles for peace.
Hamas doesn't want peace though. They want an end to the occupied territories which is Israel proper so that would mean genocide of the israelis. Also, regardless of whether the Israelis were ever there at all, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that is capable of setting up a democracy with basic civil rights. I'm certainly not saying they are perfect but there is no other state in the Middle East that has anything even close to a democracy. The Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza can't even agree amongst themselves. It's for reasons like this that I suspect that most of the people who are really active in the propylene movement are actually just anti-semites with a convenient disguise. I certainly don't blame people who are new to this and have not researched it deeply to be concerned for the civilian population in Gaza. But Hamas is using them as human Shields and knew full well that the civilians would suffer greatly as a result of their vicious terrorist attacks. If they were really interested in political change then rather than viciously attacking children, old people, a kibbutz filled with people who were active in the peace movement before they were tortured and killed by Hamas - they would have tried for military targets or government targets. They didn't. They're supposedly willing to die for their cause so please ask yourself why they chose the targets that they chose.
I've been listening to a lot of different things on both sides and I have become more and more firmly in the Israeli Camp the more I listen. For example it's interesting to notice what isn't said or what is set in a way that is kind of sugar-coated. Like when they're talking about occupied territories I originally thought they meant Gaza and the West Bank and some of the settler incursions. But in fact they mean all of israel. I also look at what their proposed solutions are. This guy whizzed right by the fact that Hamas has not held elections since 2005. It got lost in a lot of verbiage but why have they not had another election? The interviewer pointed out what was in their Charter and he pointed out that they have modified it but in fact all they have done is whitewash it. Rather than being explicitly anti-semitic, it proposes solutions that in theory sound reasonable but when you look at the facts will just lead to the wholesale slaughter of all the Jews of israel. They say they have a problem with zionists and not with Jews but look a little as to what their level of tolerance is. In fact they knowingly slaughtered Arab Muslims who were peacefully living in Israel most likely because they were moderate in their viewpoints and were living peacefully with jews. It's not hard to find pictures of the fresh-faced young Arab bus driver who was murdered by Hamas even though he was Muslim and the bedouins they massacred.
@@soltantio Yes, realizing that when Hamas says “occupied territory” it means all of that region including Israel. And when they talk about liberating Palestine - it also means the elimination of Israel. They play with words to fool the public - “they are not against Jews but Zionist”. Zionist are Jews who live in Israel. Hamas is not going to recognize or work toward for a 2 state region.
It is so sad when people don’t see it.
@@soltantio All of Israel is occupied Palestinian land. They stole it. Read about it. It all started in 1917, when one nation promised a second nation the land of a third nation. How would you react if some stranger from another country came to your home and told you to get out because some ancestor of his had owned it 2,000 years ago?
Excellent work by Michel Martin pushing back on misleading talking points by the interviewee. Worth watching.
Giving the idea that this is what humas stands for and that they changed their Charter is in my opinion also very misleading. Their goal has not changed at all.
Misleading talking points?
Good job, Michel, on challenging his narrative.
She didn't "challenge" his narrative. Her questions were an invitation for him to calmly and lucidly address the salient issues around Israel's oppression of the Palestinians. Good job, Michel.
Let's not conclude, though, that his presentation was thoroughly nonpartisan. As others here have noted, he may have had personal reasons to gloss over, for example, the black-and-white meaning of parts of the 2017 Hamas principles document revision.
He wasn't trying to be partisan; he was presenting a salient Palestinian point of view and context, that has been suppressed by the Western mainstream media. Moral right and wrong doesn't depend on party affiliation, and Netanyahu's right wing policies (driven by his trying to avoid jail time) is on the wrong side of history. @@ohallright2021
Hamas is despicable.
What the Zionists did to steal Palestine is 1,000 times more despicable. Read about it. Hamas was created by Israel.
The intro to this interview attempts to sanitize the bias of the "historian." His factual cherry-picking & pressured speech really give him away.
Great interview. Tariq explained in brief who Hamas is. I wish the interview was longer as allowed the opportunity to further explore dynamics n relationships Hamas has within Gaza, the PA, Israel n Arab supporters. He's right the ultimate goal is for Israel to end the occupation n for both states live in peace n have self determination. The book would perhaps answer peoples prejudices towards Hamas.
He also never mentioned Hamas murdering their own if anyone within their ranks openly talks about rapproachment
That includes his likely self-editing to protect himself and his own family, as was mentioned elsewhere in there comments.
While one must apply a critical eye to everything we see on the world wide web, I found it fairly easy to learn on today's internet quite a bit about the internecine dynamics of his people's leadership groups. A main difference I found was that Israel's internal conflicts are in everyday news stories, whereas Palestinians' internal issues seem to appear almost solely in study materials.
What doe you mean with prejudices? If you really want to understand it I can recommend you to read the book "son of hamas". He has given a couple of interviews recently about what ha mas stands for and the current situation.
He was saying "Hamas' aims are not clear..." and he made some vastly opportune assumption that has no basis in current reality that Hamas would entertain a two state solution...which, as of Oct.7 is probably a non-starter. Not with Hamas, anyway. They killed any trust that they could be partner in peace....and, what about the hostages? Why is anyone giving Hamas any legitimacy when it clearly began this war of choice.
Very informative and based on historical facts.
Michel is one of the best interviewers imo. Thank you both for this informative video. I wish the government of the USA, my country, would stop aiding Israel with military equipment after seeing what they are doing with it - killing citizens, children, women, babies, fathers, families. I think it's ridiculous for Netanyahu to think he can get rid of Hamas and the idea of resistance to Israel's oppression, blockade, and illegal encroachment in the West Bank.
@jetpowercom yes the Israeli government helped grow Hamas.
I hope you're right about Gaza getting international guidance. I just am so pessimistic about it because of my government's support of Israel and lack of any public denouncement of how many Gazans have been slaughtered.
Americans always remember what the palestinians did to israelis but then conveniently forget what israel does to the palestinians
You're right. That's why the failure to reach a two-state solution is tragic.
Palestinians had so many chances to negotiate, but they really wouldn't make any compromises whatsoever, and instead chose terrorism... which made the Israelis scared, and therefore voted for more militaristic leaders they hoped would protect them. And by this point it is so much more difficult to get a good deal for Palestinians, because the militaristic leader, Netanyahu, kept pushing farther and farther into what could have been Palestinian land. And by now, a 2-state solution looks impossible, but a 1-state democracy also is impossible. Among other reasons, the high Palestinian birth rate would, before long, make the state another Muslim country, and therefore unsafe for Jews. And if it were a democracy, the Palestinians would out-vote Jews' interests every time. So it's just not possible.
takes two to tango@@bettylevinson5534
Americans and memory ! Thats an over statement. All the drugs and macdonalds are there for them to forget 😅
Consider that Netanyahu's control has a limited life span. The next incarnation of Israeli government will, if the people's longtime protests make change, exercise better judgment regarding the two-state solution.
Tut tut - decontextualizing Hamas. My my. What compassion. My goodness. (puke)
How ignorant is the interviewer Michelle to suggest that Hamas has tunnels when it has been proved that the israelis built the tunnels.
So clear massage , free palastain ,, Palestinian in Gaza were peacefully protesting near the fence to open the cage ,,, but the International community did not listen to them ... unfair world
😆😆😆😆
Yes, free Palestine from Hamas.
We can see obviously this guy is pro palestinian and hamas (also in wikipedia you csn see his backgroud). He is dodging questions about accepting Israel as a country.
KellyAnne Conway 2.0 wow
He is not a historian - he may understand the history - but he speaks like an activist.
Because activists know the history of Israel's apartheid regime? If you agree that apartheid is wrong and that killing innocent civilians is wrong, then even as a historian, the way you present the facts that Israel is an apartheid govt and they have killed Palestinians indiscriminately for decades, is going to reflect that. How else do you say that Israel shoots unarmed protesters or little children with rocks and sound objective?
Dispassionately, or not be falsely presented as a scholar repeated over and over. He is president of Al-Shabaka policy network that presented the webinar “Defending Palestine Solidarity Activism in Europe.” He's a biased activist.
Do tell. Still, he provided a dispassionate explanation and - to my eye - not a justification - of Hamas's violence. I would have liked to see him note that Hamas's deliberately designed massacre of Israelis contradicts their own amended charter.
@@margarita6700 Israel is not an apartheid state. It does not target Palestinians for discrimination solely because of who they are...rather, they act out of security needs. Not that Israel is always right...but what apartheid is not what they are doing, though I know it is a favored and misused trope on the left.
@@margarita6700 It doesn't sound like you've read all the points that go into an apartheid regime. Read up on it, it's quite a list. And those things are not done in Israel. So I wouldn't bandy key emotive words around without really understanding what they mean.
Michelle asks the guest "What has Hamas done for the people of Gaza? His entire answer concerned ways Hamas helped Gazans protest, their ability to be political. Not one word about Hamas helping improve or develop schools, businesses , or cultural realities for the citizens. So it seems on that count Hamas has never seen itself as improving the current lives and conditions in Gaza, only political and fundamentalist ideology.
Hamas has, however, been said to provide some food and medical support to Palestinians over time, purportedly to earn their trust. If that is the principle reason, they can be said to be as strategic symbiotic as the interviewee says Israel has been.
Thank you for organizing this conversation. Last not least it allows "outsiders" and "not directly involved civilians" to learn more about the actual desastrous situation. Basically I am astonished to be informed that historically "Hamas" once pretended to be a "social" project and "not a "political" one. In the same breath, the historian says that Hamas would have wanted to provide good education and hospitals and other social institutions -...but at the very same time this "party" tolerated for decades the "uneducated" behaviour of pubescent youths in the well-known and mentioned "stones against tanks" actions.
...?... Today the question is: Are these young people the same ones who threw the stones and helped dig the underground tunnel 20 years ago? Are the leaders of this strategy the same ones who deliberately created this tunnel system near the children's hospital - in order to be able to put forward equally perfidious argumentation strategies "against Israelis" in the event that these at least insidious, if not criminal, installations were discovered and combated?
?... the way the historian evades concrete answers and keeps jumping back to Israel's guilt makes me sick to my stomach. It is the same rhetorical strategy that has now been used by all pro-Palestinian interlocutors since 07 October 2023.
The prefaced claim that this historian argues "from a factual and neutral" perspective is not confirmed by his discussion strategy. - On the contrary, according to his argumentation, I conclude that Hamas is clearly responsible for the catastrophic situation because it has not done exactly what it stood for: namely, to become socially positive and educationally effective. What it has built is a terror network. The demands associated with it are dictatorial and the consequences globally disastrous.
There is no doubt that Netanjahu installed wrong politics and false structueres. Above this there should be doubt that NO vulnerable should be misused by any of the two involved sides.
And yet - the Terror of the Hamas is obvious but the critique from any "pro-palestinian" part against their Terror acts equals "Zero" from so called factually speaking informed Palestinians.
And this ignorance apears to be terrifying to me...-... "just a civilian".
Thank you for this. She asked some questions but let him get away with far too much. If Hamas was primarily a social organization then why have they not spent their billions on building schools and hospitals and homes and power plants and water filtration plants rather than using that money for tunnels and bombs? Perhaps if Hamas had not been siphoning off all of that money for all these years and then put it to good use there would be less rage among the Palestinian Arabs living in Gaza because their lives wouldn't be so awful. But then they couldn't blame Israel for everything and then what would they do?
Thats a democracy
The historian is representing false logic to the question of "why didn't Hamas invest in infrastructure instead of building tunnels and amassing weapons?" He supposes that if Hamas had built healthcare, education and other infrastructure that it would not survive under the "hermetic blockade," his words. He is asserting that if Israel observed that Gazans were making huge strides and progress, that Israel wouldn't acknowledge it or create oppotunities for other movement and growth. We'll never know, because they did not do that. If the Gazans demonstrated that they were not a threat to Israel and Egypt, than it stands to reason that relations could thaw, and that movement between the territories could theoretically begin. He referred to Gaza as an open air prison as has been said by others, but failed to acknowledge who the wardens are. They are Hamas, in case that wasn't clear. He tried to keep his perspective out of it and play the historian, but apparently could not help himself.
Please Disney give this man a job...to write some more fairy tales...
PS .... Hitler did NOT carpet bomb the "Warsaw Uprising"
Who is this? Hamas’s spokesperson?
That was hard to listen to. There is no doubt that the Israeli policy of containment and force has been a failure. But this young man did not even once allude to any condemnation of the targeted barbarism of Hamas toward innocent women and children recently, only more justification
I saw the entire discussion as explanation, with comments on perception but not on justification. That can be helpful when parsing what should and should not be justified.
I remember him saying they were obviously war crimes.
@@ohallright2021 I saw it as indifference and justification.
Their is a lot buaa .
Can you say ‘brain washed’ boys and girls?
Brain washed and a great example of propaganda happening in real time.