2015 Maps of Meaning 05b: Narrative, Neuropsychology & Mythology III / Part 1 (Jordan Peterson)
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2015
- University of Toronto PSY434
Course Information: jordanbpeterson.com/Psy434H/
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February 4, 2015
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« If you’re going to critique something, don’t start at the highest level of abstraction » .Thanks for the online lectures.
What does that mean?
51:43 friendly reminder
lol. Yeah I tell my one year old that every morning when he is watching me make my bed. "If you want to change the world, start by cleaning your room"
This video (by itself) has enough value for me to suplort Peterson's website with a donation. Essentially it's worth paying for.
How much would cost that single curriculum on its own, do you think guys?
I like how easily Peterson disposes of postmodernism. He´s totally right, the presumption is that power simply exists to oppress and the most oppressive rise to the top.
Exactly. It can be quite a relief to leave things you don't know anything about to people who do. Sometimes it's you, sometimes someone else. Like Peterson said: as long as you keep talking. Alan Watts would call it a dance.
Our culture is in danger because of those people. I’m concerned about it…
I am better at being a human being because of your lectures. Thank you!
2:07:37, I just realized that he's been working on 12 Rules since this time, i wonder how many times he's re-written each sentence in that book, but it sure saved many lives (including mine) from ideologue and nihilism. This lecture is hilarious especially at 1:16:22 going forward, Thanks Doc!
He does a great job of teaching and telling jokes ((: love this guy
At the 42 min. mark JP is talking about negotiating how the family will 'parse up jobs'. That made me think of my family situation which was likely similar to many others.
My father was a tyrant who would scream and intimidate, and hit from time to time, when he wasn't getting what he wanted. Everyone, including my mom, who is definitely not perfect either, would be under him in an extreme way. Consequently we didn't learn to communicate and negotiate, and that made living as an adult very difficult and painful since those skills are very much needed to have a meaningful life. Not only were those skills not taught, they were suppressed.
Thanks for the video Jordan Peterson
I can relate to that, only after I have left home, there was opportunity to reveal it is not the only system to live by and I have come to know that I can learn to communicate better with family. Later you try to improve those skills, the harder for you. It's good that you recognize this and hopefully you will get better at communication and negotiation.
Look up term "narcissistic family" and check out this book:
"The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment" by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman
Imagine having Jordan Peterson as your professor and just casually walking in late. I’d be dying
They shouldve all just start beating THEEEE SHIT out of her the next time she did that crap. Like out of nowhere. Jordan needs to get a couple of kicks in
Oliver Kozlowski: Yes, maybe because she was used to him being there for her benefit and took him for granted. I have available Europe's finest acoustics of a concert hall in amazing architecture, in the nearby Järna Culture house, but hardly ever go there...Just as I don't go to our fine museums. Wouldn't miss his lectures though.
Peterson's 2015 and 90s/Harvard lectures for MoM (funny how Peterson, or the dad some of us lacked and jokingly refer to him as, teaches MoM to people) are the best of his lectures in my opinion.
2015 for the fact he's got all of the concepts down and can give them to you efficiently while also making jokes that help your understanding at the same time.
90s for just the amount of excitement and how Peterson seemed to be learning while he was teaching. Though the older lectures are a bit harder to understand because the vocabulary is off the charts. Had to look up a few words, and you REALLY have to be in the knowledge hungry mood to get engaged, I noticed.
William Morse It's hard to remain "neutral" when one side has redefined neutrality as "Nazism" and has the power to deplatform you if you don't acquiesce to their narrative. The past few years made me see that nothing is immune to political influence, and dealing with that reality is a necessary evil.
The people rallying around Peterson is directly related to what is happening in mainstream media and schools. Their worldview is under attack, and they're latching on to the loudest voice of reason that happens to reflect their own concerns about the world. It's a natural reaction.
Heeheeheehee!!! Never caught the MoM thing👍😁
@@xeropunt5749 You just brought this ancient comment to my attention, thanks for that. I did some retrospective editing that I think you'll like.
@@xeropunt5749 Er, there's not much to get back to, unfortunately...
I'll admit that it was a mistake in hindsight and I probably should've actually sat down and edited it rather than doing what I did. I apologize, if you really were liking it but just thought it was too long.
@@xeropunt5749 Yeah, it's been something I've worked on a lot since the original post.
What usually happens now is I explain an idea to myself, or maybe I actually explain it to someone, but then almost immediately after I figure out how to shorten and simplify it.
I grew up being the kid who would always run his gums, so it's definitely a habit to go on and on.
23:42 He begins talking about self-esteem. Genius.
God bless this man. Truly a gift.
Thank you a lot for lectures. I didn’t know where to start from to gather understanding of myself, my interactions with world and how to guide myself through life. On one side I have bible on other side I have lectures and alike wisdom. Going to listen all your videos Jordan. It going to be long way, but in the end I’ll be rewarded with great gifts.
Thank you!
I saw some of his more recent videos before. This one explained his attitude toward "fixing small things first" a lot better than any other video. Interesting to learn about the background and how it fits into his experience.
Finally the 2015 series gets into the good stuff.
Excellent lecture Prof!
I miss those lectures of Dr. Peterson in Harvard back in 1996 where it was just a small class and you could actually hear students' voice when they ask questions. Also, there's no movement of the camera here, I guess there's no cameraman available yet
Maybe the reason why Kuhn didn't feel able to fully adopt Piaget's anti relativistic position is, at least from my memory of reading Kuhn in undergrad, that he remained concerned that the new paradigm adopted precisely was not able to explain everything the old one could and more. I believe he talked about "explanatory loss", or something like that. Of course it's also complicated by Kuhn's belief that scientists operating in different paradigms are in different worlds, perhaps similar to how Peterson says "change your goal and your world changes, and it really changes". And actually that seems right because a paradigm isn't a theory for Kuhn but a paradigmatic problem, which tells you the way you solve other problems - so it is a goal structuring mechanism.
I think the Kuhnian way of solving the relativism problem is to adopt Kuhn's claim that the new paradigm is better for doing normal science, I. E. Better for framing problems in such a way that scientists can get on with their normal work to the greatest fruition. But then the problem of relativism remains in the sense that we are good enough at science to make an atomic bomb but also not good enough at it not to make an atomic bomb. In other words, it remains an epistemic but not ontological moral problem. Which is good, because ontological moral problems allow moral difference to ossify and people have a reason to stop talking with each other.
Thanks for this master class
Be nice to have the slides, especially the hierarchy around 55 minutes.
He uses a lot of them in the 2016 and 2017 lectures and you can see them there
@hellothere436 I really appreciate the insight! I've been wanting to view them myself while going through this, but there isn't much chance to. I am looking forward to the coming lectures! 😁
"Being torn to bits in a violent insurrection... that sounds like failure."
1.50.30
1:36:37 hihihihi
I am praying on the maps of meaning playlist for my mother's interest in christ!
I'm starting the morning with good brain food for the four gospels!
Thank you professor
My morning consisted of a few cups of coffee, a whole grain bagel covered in peanut butter, and a cluster of grapes! Good stable energy!
So eloquent
1:35:28 A kid deprived of rough and tumble play is so handicapped. Every parent of every preschooler needs to understand this! "A kid like that, it's so sad.... they're so ill-formed and uncomfortable in their body and socially clueless and inattentive and blind and ignored and resentful that no other kids will play with them....They stay outside of the peer group and never get into it." God. So sad. PLAY is not a four-letter word!
Its realy sad
That’s why a father is important in a child’s life as that is his they play with children, they a tossing them in the air, the kid is laughing and the mother is gasping. A child needs both parents because they bring together all the things a child needs.
@@Orion227 why not 2 trans women?
Tim Walsh I met a highschool student that didn’t know how to play before. That hurt quite a bit.
Şuch kids develop dark triad traits like psychopathy, sadism and machiavelinism.
20 work weeks or 5 months of work weeks for one hour a day in two years?? This is why I love Jordan.
That's one hell of a coke ad
TehGoddamnBatman product placement is getting out of hand
This is one hell of an underrated tweet
Good call 😂
And they didn't even pay a single penny.
This guy is cool, and I agree with his political views. I'm from CT, USA, might just have to try becoming a psych major at UoT. I'm 26, but it's never too late I suppose. The Jungian focus is really cool, and, oh this 400 level? Wow, I've studied a lot of this on my own the past 5 years.. even read the Kaplan book, but with the DSM-V now theres much more to "learn". Like binge eating disorder, heh.
Frater Tenc I'm only 22, but I feel a similar motivation to go to college even though I'm out finding simple jobs. I hope your goals become reality, man.
Which part of CT?
here's another view that's getting a lot of recognition and praise, and based on evidence :
www.researchgate.net/publication/325436277_The_Future_of_Intervention_Science_Process-Based_Therapy
Up to date psychology, really interesting.
(btw, I'm from Belgium)
Coffee helps depression but hurts anxiety so drink for wakefulness and antidepressant effect but abstain if you need to sleep or relax.
1 : 36 that was awesome
2:04:14 "Think of someone you admire"
You!
Mom the morning should be a time for excitement and healthy stress I am also praying for your mental health.
I expend at least 80 percent of my energy on food lol . Thinking about it preparing it and consuming it !
1:23:20 = notwithstanding the seemingly universal existence of the dominance hierarchy, it's still difficult to comprehend how animals, even insects like ants, just instinctively know certain patterns of behavior innately. Like where did it come from? Like how ants just know how to perform their different roles in their colony, how birds learn how to build nests or perform certain mating rituals, how newly hatched turtles instinctively just know how to swim towards the ocean, etc.
@58:27 Gottman study
until 1:04:05
legend, ty
Luka Baric I’ve been leaving bookmarks for myself across YTU (UA-cam university). Don’t laugh if you see me talking to myself lol. But I got you too
1:32:34
somebody make a gif out of this 😂
LOL
Heck yes plz!
!!! REAL GEM !!! from 40:55 to 45:10
role => no negotiations BUT (e.g. after the pill or death of God)
no role => slavery/tyranny OR negotiation
negotiation => need sophistacated applied philosophy
The problem is building something more than sandcastles from the ashes of the Deity, and it's unclear whether we're up to the task in any way that isn't horrifying.
At the one hour mark, Dr. Peterson talks about a wife, telling her husband about a Cardinal outside. He suggests that there are only four options(“2x2”) for response by the husband. As a husband of a wife myself, I thought of what my response would be, and then listened to his suggested categories of possible options to see which one mine fit into. I’m not sure that my response fit into any of his categories. I, without hesitation, would have absolutely asked my wife why the cardinal was outside and not in church. 😅 Which category does bad joke fall under?
Could someone please share the hierarchy slide, he is referencing to in his lecture? In my opinion it is not (the standard one:) maslow's hierarchy of needs. Does someone know?
Thanks in advance
"Behavioral patterns of nature" just doesn't have the same ring to it as rules
Praying on 17 year uc cop at christ hospital for my mother to hear the gospel.
1:16:22 someone make a gif
or 1:36:35
or 1:40:53
BEST THREAD ^^^
He says "I know how to play with kids" With all the heavy topics it would be nice if he could do some material based on only that. how to be better with kids. His 12 rules should also be translated in a way which 10-year-olds can understand. Love this man!
He does talk about what he did with children .
Read Piaget that's how he learned it
The Sovereignty and Authority to act comes from a previously agreed code of conduct, which is both sensitive to time and place, plus also operates within the spirit of truth....i.e any written code can be subverted and undermined therefore it is to be negated if not in the spirit of the original idea.
Without an ideal to aim for NOTHING can be deemed Sovereign or Authoritative(because of the hierarchical nature of that system).
2:00:27 = reminds me of how the Conservative residents of California moved to Texas ; or like when Ben Shapiro moved to Florida
I think that the fiction was born in the storytelling by the fireside. Whenever a group of males were lost, the rest of the tribe would argue about the problems that they have to face, and represent them. And voilá!
1:37:50 right before daycare story
ok I have to ask when this was recorded, because that dell is pulling me back to 90's memories. I do love JP's work.
00:50:00 romantic interest and negotiation
1:35:23 About children
I love Miss Paterson - had her when I was in uni and she was just mesmerizing - hoping she's been getting better and so is her wife.
At 37 minutes he talks about if the left disappears the right goes to far and if the left disappears the right goes to far. And they call me pedantic.
I think there is a strong case however that dominance hierarchies can be controlled for other purposes, not that they are necessarily set up for such ends but unlike chimpanzees we are way past the point of removing the deviants from the top of dominance hierarchies. Of course many people will discount this statement but also many people don't seem capable of critically evaluating evidence. Science is supposed to be based on observation-test-hypothesis but there are many these days including those in scientific disciplines who discard evidence to fit a particular theory.
He talks about this bias in his personality lectures.
Does anyone else get mildly annoyed when students come walking in LATE to JP'S lectures ?
52:06 Ha!
3 people have messy rooms
7:37 this is still too high resolution to me. Why does the cat explore what it explores? Why does it not sit and think? Or stare at a specific thing? About a specific thing? Why does the cat value what it values in order to search for it?
As a child, why did I value science and exploring knwodlege of it? Why not bugs? Or did I first search where the food was? Why not something else first? What is the nature of the value system within the hypothalamus?
does anyone agree with me that he seems a bit happier in this video than his later videos
May be due to spending his time with interested students instead of constantly being attacked with rhe same arguements trying to demonize him.
What do the exams look like?
It's so weird seeing a 4:3 video these days.
@Moth’s Mummy no one said they didn't fit on an iPhone. NO ONE said that.
1:39:30 I was that kid. It's almost impossible to recover from that
How you doing now?
2:00:00 alright ONE MORE SENTENCE!!!
2:06:26 50 sentences later 😂
Oh Jordan you get carried away xD
1:22:12 Isn't Freud's therapeutic goal of the "autonomous individual" just another name for "narcissism" ??
Ebay works because the users rate each other--paypal vouches for the transaction and there is a diminishing ability to participate if they make illegitimate transactions. The systems that work never rely on trust.
America: used to work because of checks and balances, and the freedom to move from one state to another-government functions were primarily performed by the state governments and they were competitive. Today it appears to work because it relies on softpower (apparent good will) to maintain its military strength and brain-drain (importing intelligent people) to drive its economy--meaning that it has an open relationship to foreigners and it is still partial to using immigrants (there are leveraged actors with sunk costs in that part of the system). One example: multi-national corporations prefer to move smarter people to america, suppressing the value of foreign money, so they can pay less for the same standard of living, and make more money on the first-world market-especially with tariffs to protect the profit spread. That is: you can think of the american economy as part of the global economy, where there are multiple currencies and multiple sets of regulations. The minimum wage work is done in areas where it is cheaper to live, and it gives them a comparative advantage in the local economy, and a greater profit for the operating cost.
Lower wage immigrants are either for under-the-table work, in-house work, or (primarily) voting in key areas [like concentrating people of a common political disposition in a specific district to change a swing-vote]. If America didn't have appeal this method would be ineffective. But it still isn't the same as having local competitive governments.
@@robertbrothers2099 you have to trust PayPal.
@@isaacc3307 I trust what I pay for arrives, . . . It does 😂
Mom, just like how I choose to drink coffee instead of vape nicotine because I know something about pharmacology, I read the Bible because I've read a lot of books.
24:00
Some comments:
Pain and misery may be want you want but it would have to be your pain and misery that you impose on yourself, not someone else imposing it.
The problem of nihilism does not ever vanish. Evil is intractable and will not disappear regardless of the archetypes. The planet is like a Devil's Island in space, isolated with no life near by. We are like rebellious angels who lost in a war against God and were sent here to serve our sentence. We know both good and bad. And if we do good we escape the cycle of rebirth. We are pardoned and never return. But you are proposing an escape plan, a series of steps leading upwards, that you have thought about and are giving as a way out. You understand through myths, archetypes and science, whereas others will understand through their religion and listening to their conscience (natural law) that has been informed by God. Still others have given up on all this or they try to correct their problems the modern way. They will put Satan on the Freudian couch and ask why does he hate his Father, is it an Oedipal Complex? They will give Satan meds to calm himself down and think clearly. Satan will be rehabilitate and become a productive member of society -- become God's light bearer again. If they can correct evil there is hope for mankind.
I like your ornate stairway to heaven where the hand rails have different jewels from different disciplines, but I don't think we can ever really escape evil. We can lessen it and that is a blessing.
On big papa will my mom will be mentally healthier if her rule is coffee in the am in the living room and wine in the pm in the bedroom.
1:42:00. I wonder how well the "rat play percentage coefficient" would map on to economic systems?
E.g., if say "upward mobility" becomes stagnant for 30 percent (or whatever detailed study would find) for the "losers" at the bottom of a dominance hierarchy is some sort of tipping point?
This could apply to individual "games" as well. If a complex society has 100 games that folks compete in economically, and 30 percent (just a number) become "Pareto-Bound" if we could call it that then that is a tipping point as well because then there aren't enough games to choose from for folks who will never "qualify" for a higher level game.
Looks like we have been at this point for a while. I think the most obvious indicator is when extremism, Left or Right, begins to rear their ugly heads.
Same problem of "dividing the farm" from agrarian days. The sun total of available games are equivalent to total of farmland available.
Wonder if there are some sort of economic theories of trade for countries that cannot grow enough food would map over to non farm economic hierarchies.
Some sort of anthropology theories about territory conflicts between species in nature or something might apply as well.
Hope this is making sense to someone educated enough to offer an opinion.
What I see this as is maybe like a higher resolution unemployment rate or something. US unemployment numbers notoriously ignore folks who have run out of benefits but are still not working. Or that maybe are working, but in lesser status, or paying work.
What is missing, it seems, is early warning about dying industries and paths up. And ZERO support for moving folks from dying industry into new one. Or what to do with folks who cannot even move to the industry that is replacing/displacing the old ones.
Been a problem in US since the 1970's.
For mom, drink coffee for help getting out of bed only. Coffee in bed is causing you anxiety and paranoia.
Even by 2015 standards that is an ancient laptop
1:56:26 Oh 3:11? Ok, so 1 more sentence…
Proceeds to talk 12 minutes more XDDDD
When we learn something the easy way, do we necessarily learn things from people who learned it the hard way? or are there some things which nobody has had to learn the hard way for thousands of years?
is the "hard way" learning from personal experience/ (more) independent from instruction or authority?
If that is so, what is the "easy way"?
yes the hard way is from personal experience of the subject matter, rather than second-hand experience through some purported authority, which would be the easy way.
Well yes and no. We can learn the abstraction but we cannot learn how to put it into practice until you do it. A myth is an encrypted moral abstraction file that can only be read by human beings and your programming can read it and understand it but until your hardware uses it you don’t know it fully.
@@HelloThere..... sounds like the halting problem
1:43:00 Did this story of the kid resonate with anyone?
40:06 you guys don’t know what’s coming your way, you just don’t know, you don’t know yet
As far as we sapiens are just sophisticated chimps, the analysis of aggression dominated hierarchies being unstable is also apparant within the observation of authoritarian regimes. Though it seems to me that this ought to be only the case as long as there is a separation of informational excess to the broad of society. Say there is a regime keeping the power by killing every opposing forces off which in turn are people themselves as they naturally try to balance things out so to speak. And now there is a broad range of human beings that are as sophisticated, or grounded in long term healthy moral laws, as to withdraw from gouverments if they know about the extend of there misdoing. Now you gotta ask how much do you need to ask for one to abandon a gouverment. And the answer is simple as far is the goal of social prosperity is concerned. Dominance over groups needs to serve the purpose of restraining the mal corrupt side of their virtuosity and not kill off the fruitful grapes. So even if a gouverment is really good at prohibiting the spread of information about their misdoing which would be up to impossible by modern speed of light standards of global aswell as local communication, there must be a point at which the deliverance of goods that require the proper functioning of say left wing artist seizes. It would be like a drought or to make it real Petersonesk, a flood breaking the damms because those miserable levee builders were fired or cast away out the kingdom as they too much complained about not having enough construction material. And the gouverment puts them down just for the sake of solving the proposed problem by casting it away, that is just the thing you do if you react with aggression. There is a problem which needs some sophisticated amount of attention and say computation for simplification and you can either try to solve the problem at its root or just hit the computer in hope of it overcoming the boot delay then. So is it either talk or lack the chalk to make any plans on a board whatsoever. Anyways I'm railing off right now and the point of this just was that a functioning gouverment needs to be in dialogue with its subordinates and solve there problems warm hearted. Its not only a thing of big scale human organisation but rather a basic function of domincance hirarchies, as I can recall from observing my I would say friends that are most top level of a meta set of dominance hierarchies because they are people that are attentive and smart when it comes to every sort of given problem that their circle of friends might produce or their circle of game sharers, coworkers whatever. Probably it is the same amongst chimps as those tribes are most stable which have a male on the top that takes care of the concerncs of the lower males aswell as females, wonder what that might be.
37: muh government is a ballance metaphor
59:00 well, it looks like my parents are gonna divorce then.
This session makes me sooo glad that I am not married nor do I have kids. Blah.
Do humans have to be taught to integrate aggression into our personality? a big gap.
August 2020
Mother Jesus was among those drunken with wine and drank not himself therefore I kept the law of Israel by not getting drunk with you!
hehe funny how our unemployment levels and therefore unemployment benefits get to around 10% and people start getting grumpy over it.....so accurate
This aged well...
help?
Is Jordan diabetic or is it that he just likes the taste of Aspartame and acesulfame K?
It's better than sugar regardless if You're diabetes. Although there's still some unknown area to research about these sweeteners. It certainly will not make You obese like sugared stuff and it's also better for teeth.
Why didn't he park his lawn mower out in the parking lot? Looks weird sitting there next to the desk.
brilliant lectures i really enjoy. But seriously a giant can of coke? I hope Jordan decides on healthier options. Kombucha is great!
I was gonna dismiss this lecture as Neuro-nonsense until I saw mythology in the title.
You value mythology ABOVE neuropsychology?
Yes, I like dragons more than neurons, people who dont got a congenital disorder.
Mom try coffee in the living room and wine in the bedroom on god and your friends only.
Diet coke
I swore I saw Kathy Waite down in ohio wearing some disgusting sex offenderish shit
Sex offender diversion is just plain funny they do disgusting stuff that's supposed to educate you but then it just makes you laugh because of how dumb it is.
Watsup with all the fuckn ads!!!!? Literally every 2 minutes 🤦♂️
Man mansplaining for 2hours
No
Geniussplaining*
Literally the shallowest and least insightful comment that it's possible to make about this video. Congratulations--you have demonstrated your complete lack of depth.
Oot cringe
31:00