SVB, if you are looking to have ideas for content, here’s a few: *Map debate. What constitutes a good map? Why is King’s Row so good? Why is 2CP bad? (2CP is actually my favorite mode to watch in OWL) *Rank debate. How does a bronze-gold range player, plat, diamond-GM player, and T500/pro all view the game differently? The challenge would be finding smart low level players, in the sense that they can voice their points well, but I’m sure that’s a consideration with all your guests. In this we can see that say low ranked players need to just get good to deal with Doomfist, but maybe people at all ranks despise Hog being meta, etc. Potentially a lot to learn about the game. *Game mechanic debate. Are shields healthy? (I think they are good for the game so spam or the current Hog/Zarya meta isn’t strongest). One hit kills (why are Widow headshot and Doom punch OP/annoying, but Rein charge balanced). General CC discussion, what makes it good for the game/healthy. Overall just a “what makes OW function well” video I suppose. *What makes a good meta. Did people just need to get good at Dive, or did it really impact the experience of support players too harshly? Etc... Any of these I think would be quite interesting, now that you’ve done all the roles I think this is where you could maybe take it next! I’d love this content (and the current stuff) and hope to see you succeed!
Why i hate 2cp it's basically Either getting snowballed and losing in 2 minutes or winning a team fight to get 1 or 2 ticks on The point. Also The great meta debate Is a great idea.
I like the Rank Debate idea. Something that's been a long-standing bugbear for me is the thought that maybe the balance of the game should gradually shift from rank to rank. Like maybe Junkrat's splash is 20% weaker in bronze compared to M/GM, 16% weaker in silver, 12% in gold, etc., scaling the more oppressive things in low ranks (hi Bastion) in a way that allows them to be competitive in high ranks but not completely dominant in the metal ranks
@@drkashik That would Be terrible and Make The game too easy, then low ranked players would feel like their not playing The real game, just a game tuned For how Bad they are.
@@lukemchugh719 I don't see how it would make the game easier. If anything, it would remove "easy" options at low ranks. Right now in bronze or silver, if you want to completely clean up, you can go PharMercy. Hitscans can't aim in bronze, essentially by definition, so there's no real response to that pairing. Hitscan players still have to get better, since you don't advance from bronze to silver without playing better than your cohort, and then there's a progression check each rank as you advance and Pharah gains power to keep her competitive as the players become able to viably counter her. In compensation, they don't have to nerf Pharah for higher ranks (as they've done and are doing) just because she's oppressive at metal ranks. Bastion could be buffed without being an easy win every time in Gold. Basically, I'm saying that if the game is supposed to be about rock/paper/scissors built out of a combination of team composition and skill, there are a lot of ways to completely short-circuit that play loop at lower ranks *because* the means of countering a specific comp rely solely on a level of skill that's just not there. Players in Bronze *ARE* playing a different game than players in GM, and there's no way around that.
@@DemonbreedGaming He's middle of the pack in OWL but even then that is largely recent. There is still a good 6-7 other dps that get played way more than him and have been played for much longer as well.
I love hearing these super high-ranked players' views, but really love how SVB remembers how us metal ranks are affected, because we ARE the majority of the player base. ✌️💛✌️ And gotta love the panel choice, some of the best personalities of players in the game.
Abhinav Banerjee yes I will to admit that what's he's done with this series is unprecedented. Also I love how he sticks up for us low ranks. Just like in real life, the top 10% of streamers and players could give a rats ass about our gameplay experience. I love that svb takes them down a peg reminds them we exist.
These videos have really filled the void that Jayne left in the UA-cam OW community. We really loves these videos that are long, absolutely stuffed with information, and very sparsely edited. It makes for a great podcast to throw on while I cook or work, and is always both interesting and informative.
@@wendigo374 I don't view that as a different problem. If balance were perfect in pro play, theoretically, it wouldn't be an issue if it were poor in, say metal ranks. Because in that case the balance isn't actually the issue, the issue is that lower level players tend to have certain biases. If the biases are corrected for the balance will resemble higher levels.
37:30 It's not that console players can't aim, it's that the limitations of the controller won't allow players to aim _fast enough_ while being accurate enough to deal with Pharah (it's why most of the highest tier console players are actually using keyboard and mouse with an adapter and not a controller even though that breaks most of the consoles' ToS). If you put the aim to linear ramp (where you have a 1 to 1 input from controller) you won't be able to hit anything because you won't have control (think stupid high sensitivity on mouse, _some_ people can do it but it's very rare) but you will be able to physically aim fast enough. If you put it on exponential ramp (where it theoretically will move faster the further the joystick is pushed from it's resting position) you have enough control, but it's too slow to react to the movement of an airborne target that will just abuse the fact that you _physically_ cannot get your cross hairs on them fast enough once they use any of their movement abilities. It is genuinely a problem on console and why Pharah never really fell out of fashion there.
Wtf are you talking about? Pharah on console is just as bad as PC. You literally have to be gold or below to think pharah is op. And BTW if you use linear you have put 20-25 aim ease in and you can easily control it, it just feels a bit weird at first if you're used to dual zone. Stop saying stupid shit like this. No wonder PC players think console players are dogshit. And most people use controller in high ranks, yeah there are some mnk players but bad players like you think that anyone who can hit shots is mnk. Just stfu
Um, xBox there’s like 2 Pharahs in the T500. There’s more Bastions I’ve seen in Masters+ than Pharahs she’s that unpopular. Pharah at high level is just 100% niche. It’s just the breakoff point got changed from 249X-2800 on PC and like 280X-3000 on console for who can handle Pharah. I’m a shit DPS at 2900 on role queue, but every Pharah will instantly switch when anyone switches to any hitscan because they understand. Same at 3400 and 3800.
The Ashe 85->80 damage nerf affects her breakpoint for all 250hp targets. It goes from 3 shot to kill (or 1 HS + 1 Body) to 4 shots (or 2HS) to kill. Great suggestions on S76's visor to be reworked btw!
i completely agree with trying to make hitscan and projectile equally viable. Currently, hitscan is just better projectile. sure there might be falloff but if compare ashe and hanzo for instance, at 50 meters ashe might hit 70% of her shots at half damage but hanzo only hits 10% at full. I've just been avoiding comp because sure i can play ashe if i need to, but i'm not going to be better than the enemy who has played her and heroes like her since launch. The same way where if double projectile is meta, a hitscan main in my rank probably won't be able to out-duel me in a hanzo mirror match and they'll just have a bad time until they can play the heroes that they're good at.
Podcast Links are here now! Thanks for all your awesome feedback! If you like these podcasts, all I ask is that you leave the video running for its entire duration as the YT algorithm loves it so even if you don't watch it, it massively ramps the 'time watched'! Oh and click the ads please 😜 Thanks guys! Podcast Links Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
These are probably my four favourite OW youtubers (no exageration) Ive watched most of KarQ's 1 tip series. Jake's OWL VOD reviews are the best I've seen, (joint with Jayne probably) And Yeatle..... I'm 2 hours into his Unranked to GM wreckingball, so.......
Moira, cleanse orb instead of damage orb. Right click on an ally after pressing e to throw and stick a cleanse orb on them for a short duration. Would only affect 1 person and you'd have to decide whether you want to use healing orb to heal your teammates or throw this cleansing orb for 1 ally. Edit: your allies would have that icon selection around them that some heroes have already
I’d honestly like if they just completely gutted Moira’s damage orb instead, then make her kit extremely resource-focused. Like increase resource consumption when healing so you can’t just hold it for 10 seconds, maybe 7 max. Increase passive recovery and Moira’s Suck resource recovery. Basically make Moira a more interactive version of Mercy. Honestly, I would’ve loved if Blizzard just explored what “Support” actually means. Like almost every support is used for 1 purpose: healing. Ana, Mercy, Moira, Bap. Even the others are made viable by survivability like Brig’s Rally and Inspire, Lucio Beat, and Zen trans. The most fun Supports to play are also the ones that actually explore what “supporting the team” actually means. Zen and his damage Orb, Ana’s anti-heal, and Lucio’s speed and boop. I’d love to see a support hero with exactly 0 heals. Instead maybe a blind, slow, a Mercy beam but only for a decaying shield like Beat Drop, only heals being out of combat, something like Torb’s old armor pack, a more divey support that’s like a suicide-role that boops people into your team at the cost of his life, something. Nah, we just get more “heal is life” heroes. I just don’t like non-Lucio or Ana healing because it’s just “heal team or feed”. Like if tanks were “put shield up or be flamed” or all DPS having a universal hitscan and being flamed for never using it. You play dive DPS to feel like an assassin. You play Tank to feel like an unstoppable juggernaut that mows down teams and becomes unkillable. You play support... to heal. Not even to make plays, not to help your teammate reposition with maybe a 1-use teleport, not to scout out flankers safely with a motion sensor. Supports don’t fucking want to play Mercy and heal beam, they do it because it’s necessary. I’d love a meta where healing and non-healing comps are meta.
@@VVheeli look up symmetra 1.0 (pre - dec 13, 2016). I felt dumb running from teammate to teammate giving them a pittance of temporary shields. Also, look up symmetra 2.0 (dec 13, 2016 - June 28, 2018) and the associated Symm-Torb cheese comps on hanamura. Squishies be running around with nearly double their health in shields and armour.
Gummo Stump It’s not just shields or doubling health. Even then that would sort of be solved by 2-2-2 and how if Symm had those tools, they’d either just need to make either shields minimal or severely lower damage. OW’s been out for like 4 years, and we’ve barely experimented with any sort of soft-CC and information-based abilities. All we really have is non-stun displacement like Lucio and Orisa. The only slow effects I can think of are Mei, who is an absolute abomination of a kit, and Symm turrets. It wouldn’t be as noticeable as straight up stuns, and it would help create combos and peeling against dive/tanks without feeling as overbearing if done correctly. And the only soft-CC that’s not movement related isn’t on a tank or support, it’s Sombra’s hack. Which balance-wise is pretty fucking good. Never oppressive, never overbearing and warping metas, but it’s an insane tool and has had only like 1 change to duration. I’d love to see Blizzard at least tinker with some debuff/buff effects. Like changing fire rates, making the interact key actually useful by being able to selectively hook your allies out of bad situations, a field that doesn’t hinder walking but you can’t dash/teleport in it, making a character’s model and health pool larger on an ult like Ana’s, increasing the sizes of bullets/splash damage so King’s Row corridors are even scarier, blinds/visual impairment like if Hack disabled HUD except for crosshairs, auditory CC like making enemies hear someone revving a Junkrat Tire when he’s at 30%. Stuff like this. Or scouting flankers/giving info on certain paths. The only ones that can do this right now are Widow with ult and proxy mine, Hanzo sonics, and Torb and Symm are cheating with turrets. Like cameras, motion sensors, and such. That would be such a neat addition to a support’s kit. I’m not saying straight up stop making supports with heals, but it would be a nice change of pace if we gave supports more distinguishing tools. Baptiste’s kit is just... so bland in comparison to all the options I just listed. Heal/damage gun, heal aura, window, “don’t die” field. Or Brig: tiny shield, melee, CC, mediocre heals, armor aura. Meanwhile you could have someone that has a heal/damage gun, a motion sensor, auditory CC, a slowing goop for peeling, and an ult that doubles HP but also doubles your size with no change to movement. I can forgive Blizzard for not wanting another “unkillable” meta like Symm/Torb, GOATS, and Double Shield, but I’m not forgiving them for basically making Support such a deadbeat class compared to how sweet the options for DPS and Tanks are.
1:52:30 What if Visor allowed headshots but only autoaimed bodyshots? Meaning, if your cursor isn't on the enemy, it still autoaims towards them and bodyshots them. But if your cursor is on their head, you are rewarded for your aim with the crit. That would allow for some amazing skill scaling especially with the loss of spread and increased reload speed.
I want to send a huge thanks to SVB for getting these OW content creators and players together to have a healthy discussion about the game, because we all love it deep down and want it to have a long survivability.
As a guy that doesn’t use twitch much, lot of my old ow channels have moved on from taking about deep meta conversations and these panel style podcast are a god send. Thanks so much to reaching out to so many great content creators!
I believe if people were still allowed to 6-stack above 3900 a more coordinated well thought out meta would’ve been found by now. Until we can rely on teammates to counter hog zarya with coordinated dive or rush it’ll stay meta until hog doesn’t absolutely destroy rein/winston
I understand Jake's sentiment on fire rate nerfs, but Blizz is trying to tackle burst damage with this patch. They can't nerf the actual damage numbers, so they have to reduce how often burst lands. These changes give everyone else room to breathe from burst heroes while keeping the single damage output of these heroes.
@@dmodk8010 I think most of the nerfs are good. I think Bap will be fine but even if he needs a buff to compensate they can buff his primary heals. This balance patch is aimed at targeting burst damage and burst and aoe heals which have been way too powerful for too long.
The issue with console is that when you get to masters or gm, half the players use mouse and keyboard, so really its kinda messed up no matter what you do.
Superjump actually wasn't possible until an interation of Mercy when she got reworked. The way ga used to work during mass rez, and how it works now are completely different!
Soldier should be able to reload while sprinting and his heal station should be some kind of stim pack that he can just pop and go with that has some Heal over time effect to the tune of like 150 total healing for himself. And I feel like the sprint re-work could work or just keep it the same.
I don´t agree with the stimpack thing cuz I use my healthstation mainly to heal teammates such as tanks, healers can top me off quite fast if I play correctly in their los, but tanks might gain more from a heal over time like health station
I totally agree with Jake that Genji's ultimate charge should've been what was nerfed. Maybe the secondary fire rate could've been set to a middle ground, but it sucks that he's basically back to being a blade-bot.
If they continue this nerf everything then genji damge would have been change anyway and genji will be a lot better as everything gets nerfed back down
@Abhinav Banerjee You mean like Ball? If you are alone, Genji has a decent chance to assassinate you. If you have a LITTLE bit of peel he flops. He has 0 self sustain, so if he's in your back line alone you just need to hit him to keep him from going in. If he has heals, that means he's with his team and in that case he SHOULD be able to kill you if he has the resources. Right now, he's back to being a blade bot. Even with resources it's just too hard to kill people through any sort of healing, unless you are blading.
I've had this idea that they could make blade 4 sec and give genji damage reduction Now it's more like tracer's ult in a sense that it doesn't affect many people but still can be crucial in winning a fight, it isn't as dangerous to use for genji so that he won't be as afraid to use it, it's easier to avoid since you only have to boop him away once or wait for a small bit, and what i personally as the genji main want - nanoblade is no longer a teamwipe, no longer a boring i win button and not a part of genji that makes it unable to improve him in some other form without hurting the health of the game.
@Abhinav Banerjee it was fine. They overturned him then made him worse. His alternate fire speed is his constant damage. Making it slow kills the character. Ill take the damage nerf but give me back my speed
Yea, I had to stop playing with them after they did that... as ppl above me have mentioned the overall mentality can have a huge effect on things and from now on I only play with people with a mindset focused on growth and improvement. We all can find something to improve on no matter what rank. After every game, win lose or draw, everyone should be able to identify at least one thing they could have done better.
I disagree with the idea of “you can’t use *insert hero* at high ranks.” I personally find it fun and skillful when people take “low skill bad heroes” and find a way to min max their kit with high IQ and climb to high ranks (as long as the hero is actually balanced of course)
The thing is there are heroes that for the most part you can’t use in higher ranks. Pharrah for example will be shut down 95% if the time by a hitscan on the other team. There are just things that don’t work past diamond
Some heroes are just entry level heroes by design. Bastion and reaper are good examples. They have limited skill ceilings because they don't have abilities they can exploit (think of tracers maximizing movement abilities or widow headshots). Gold Bastion vs GM Bastion will be doing similar things, the main differences would be positioning and team coordination, otherwise aim would be similar.
Jadeon Howell bastion actually has a lot of tech lower levels don’t use but that is agreeable to a point. Healing between ult shots, rocket jumping, and any GM player is going to have extremely better aim than golds
18:10 Then it's good they nerfed the direct and not the splash. It's an overall lesser nerf since the splash does the same damage (the easier to land) but IF the damage was gonna be nerfed you'd want the harder portion to hit to get nerfed not the easier. Overall it's just a general scale back of damage. 120 is pretty much the most damage you can do with a projectile now (not counting headshots) and I think it's more to keep things in line than anything else I suppose (rather than random characters doing random amounts, sym 140 but only on a full charge, junk rat 130 on a direct, pharah 120 on a direct but 80 splash ect ect).
Great vid! I think it would be interesting to have a lower ranked player present in the discussion so that we see the changes affect them from their own perspective
My thoughts on fixing double shield tanks while not totally gutting either orisa or sigma. Orisa: Halt - Have it not have priority over movement abilities and have it be able to break like a hog hook. if say genji, mccree tracer dash out of it and get yoinked back to narnia, make that a thing of the past. Then give it a 7 meter aoe and a faint outline of its reach and it makes it easier to spot and the enemy is aware of its boundaries. That way the ability is still incredibly strong, but will have more counter play and its threat is pronounced. people will learn to play around it, but it could still be an incredibly potent positional punisher as opposed to a team grabber. i see it then requiring smarter usage as opposed to 'haha me see red me click right' while not spaying orisas carry potential. Fortify - Back to vanilla values. This is a net buff and will compensate for her reverted health and worse shield, improves her personal survivability while not being depndant on her shield so it only benefits her. She cant just be focused down for free because you shot through her plastic shield but she cant be brazen in her positioning even with this buff because of her prior nerfs. Sigma: Barrier - Revert the shield deploy speed to its vanilla speeds. to compensate reduce the width of it making it more reminiscent of a square. make it only useful to actively deny a specific damage source or corner as opposed to entire sightlines and chokes. It would make sigma more rewarding for reading or predicting people and rewarding for having good reflexes and game sense without granting him the shield strength of the maintanks as it would be too weak to effectively absorb collective spam. thus reducing its efficacy in lazy block all damage placements and promoting a higher apm, more watchdog approach and a viable counter to snipers without being oppressive. This might make him even better but the constant juggling between damage and precise shield placement makes him harder but may make him the goat in 4k+. this would make his skill ceiling ridiculous. oh also let soldier reload while sprinting
For Pharah, I disagree she even needs to be touched on console. We all have aim assist and she's not hard to hit when she's at the right angle, so the interaction completely revolves around her trying to position above you. It's counterplay with positioning, and she just acts as another character barrier to overcome between plat and diamond (in my opinion).
The thing I got out of this is a re-affirmation of my opinion that they really, really need to work on lessening the inherent synergy between given heroes. Pharah is dogshit by herself. Even on console in gold, solo Pharah is awful. Pharah-Mercy though, and it's just way more difficult to secure the kill, unless you're Widow or boosted Ashe. The obvious other pair is Orisa-Sigma. Both heroes have been HEAVILY nerfed, mostly because of how well they work together. If Orisa wasn't in the game, Sigma definitely wouldn't be quite this nerfed. But it's not just them, the dive tanks (and heroes) all pressing shift on a target is also not necessarily healthy. Teamwork should come more from actual human coordination, not a kit just hard enabling another kit, I think. It would allow more diverse tank lines, though...perhaps a bad time to mention that since Hog-Zarya is meta right now, which is a weird, not traditional pairing.
Maybe change double shield so different shield combos have different amounts. Solo Orisa having 900, Solo Sig has 1k, but double shield has 600 and 800 respectively. Rein has base 2k but with Orisa it’s 700 and 1.5k. It would be a more interesting meta at the very least and gives the community time to actually experiment. Also gives higher ranks and OWL more to think about on a Macro level.
Skill and voice chat send to scale with rank u find more speaking in higher ranks as well as game sense aim ability rises as well it's so apparent that sometimes I feel it should just be considered a skill to be in voice chat
Honestly, if you’re able to rally a team to go an obscure route or manage team ults, you can hit Diamond easy. Macro skill is just so underrated outside of T500 and pro levels.
@@Jay-rl8vt nah even if youre diamond or plat its easy to deal with pharah and junk. If youre in those ranks and you cant deal with them you should probably be gold or below
For the Pharah x Mercy interaction, they could make it so that Mercy's Guardian Angel has a longer cooldown for flying to the same hero repeatedly. So lets say you GA to Pharah in the air 3 times in a row, for every time the GA cooldown extends with 2 seconds. That way Mercy is not nerfed if she GAs to different heroes each time, but if she GAs to the same hero in succession, a time penalty is added to GA. This would mean she can't stay with Pharah in the air nearly as much as she used to do, and she has to think more about how she uses GA in that specific synergy - which would not impact most other synergies she has, as Pharah realistically is the only hero where Mercy would GA to multiple times in succession to be able to stay in the air with Pharah.
To fix Pharrah, I like Jake’s idea where the play style needs to change. My idea: each of Pharrah’s Rockets has its own fuel gauge. The fuel contributes to how far the rocket travels and how much damage is dealt. If more fuel is consumed for travel, it equates to less damage when it explodes. To where if you are up close to your target, less fuel for travel, thus more damage. That would also be true for self damage. Thoughts anyone?
1:10:08 I agree with this a lot. Of course you could try to force your team to be coordinated in gold. But if you get the same or more value from just locking hog and landing hooks, then people aren't going to do it (and shouldn't)
Idea for adding challenge and tech to swinging heroes (rein, brig): remove auto swing and cause early swing clicks to force an addition to the internal cooldown by some fraction of a second. Then buff the per hit damage or the general speed of swings so that potential damage is higher but much tougher to achieve. Effectively, as you click in proper time you get more damage and have a timing version of crit scale.
1:37:51 Super Jump was not possible 4 years ago. Super jump was a result of the Mercy rework (ie. only after mass rez was taken out in very late 2017) because it actually changed the way Guardian Angel functioned in the rework to allow _her_ position to determine how she moved as opposed to her _teammate's_ position (which is why Super Jump works, you abuse _Mercy's_ position in space). You could occasionally abuse map terrain if it was _just_ right (usually from Anubis' half walls), but usually all that would happen is it would break the GA, not allow you to continue to your target, cancel the ability, and put it to cooldown usually dropping you like a fucking stone (because it would occasionally glitch her passive glide into not working for the duration of the cooldown). Old GA was pretty bad, and it DEFINITELY wouldn't have been able to super jump just because of the way it was coded.
To make the synergy with Phara and Mercy less strong why not make it so Mercy's guardian angle is on cool down until she touches the ground? This way she'll function normally in most fights but with Phara she'll only be able to pocket her for a short time. It''ll also add some risk vs reward because the longer she uses her passive to stay the in sky the more vulnerable she'll be since her passive is pretty slow. I pretty much never play mercy though so maybe there's something I'm missing that's than obvious flaw with that. What do you mercy players out there think about it?
That’s interesting as a change concept, but it would completely gut Mercy’s other roles. It would also be really hard to code/change correctly with regards to her ult. And with Blizzard bugs/balancing, I’d say no.
@@tonyt987 Could also just make her mobility be based off of her concussive e ability, like give her 4 or so that recharge like blink and she can essentially rocket jump with them to get off the ground and shoot off of walls and roofs for horizontal momentum as well. Maybe make her jets just hover and retain speed instead of gain vertical height.
Slight tangent because I was disappointed they didn't bring it up but I don't know how Blizzard expects queue times to ever be fixed when there are 2 more DPS than there are tanks and healers combined.
Having played on console since release, i think we have pretty much given up on them making specific balance changes for us. Torb had one on for his turret, Ana got one that made her slightly better and thats been it, over what nearly 4 years. They just don't care about hero balance on console. Heck the worse thing isn't even Pharah, its the god damn Widow players with plug in keyboard and mouse who still get the aim assist for playing on console.
At 1:21:00, y'all are talking about single target speed boost. So what about Mercy having a different key binding for a single target speed boost, like a green energy beam? That would make her a bit more relevant.
As someone who really loves the games spirit but has taken huge breaks inbetween play, I really love the honest breakdown from all the different perspectives of how the game currently but also no longer functions. Despite this being nearly 3h long the topics and discussion were practically always impactful. 👍
The new meta I call it hide and seek its rein hog where rein just peeks enough for hog to get hook or to defend from hook while also having double sniper or Hanzo, support would be Ana and either Lucio or zen. Mostly long range fights where all reins hate to live because all they are is a shield until they are nanoed
I'm conflicted. I kinda feel like Hog Zarya being meta n the lower ranks is fine because teamwork doesn't work anyways. Like Reinhardts in Plat don't even WANT to play Reinhardt, they just think we need one so they stand in the choke and hold their shield effectively making it a 5.2v6 (or worse 5.2v5.2 if they both have Reinhardt). With Hog Zayra being the perceived "meta" even at the lower ranks it makes it so you have to rely on actual map geometry to succeed which teaches the metal ranks how to play the game WITHOUT a big blue barrier in between you and your enemies. Once you learn how to effectively play like that having Rein being meta at a higher rank would be ideal I think. Basically, in my perfect world, I think Hog Zarya would be meta in the lower ranks due to them being good solo picks and coordination being so low. Like it's ACTUALLY more powerful to run those if you aren't using strategies vs a team running Rein but not talking. BUT as soon as some team play comes into the mix Reinhardt should start to be stronger. Basically Hog Zarya should be a skill check and once you get past them you are allowed to play the more team intensive comps because you already know how to position correctly and play individually AND incorporating team play makes with these skill sets unlocks characters like Reinhardt or Orisa being good.
@@davidquintanilla9330 Not previously. I think Rein/Zar was better even with little communication and teamwork just because Hog was so bad. Now anyone and their mother can hook 1 shot so even at teh lower ranks the consistency is there for Hog players. I will agree that Zar is pretty much always strong at the lower ranks because of player skill with snipers, but it's not like they manage their CDs properly and usually feed once they hit 100 energy. I'm not saying I'm excluded from this. That's the reason I suck at the metal ranks too is because of these mistakes.
@@GriFFonRec4 well if u were a smurf than I'd recommend those two tanks to climb now that sigmas pretty weak. With zarya u basically eliminate the disadvantages of having a feeding teammate, provided u save bubbles for important interactions, and ur damage gets insane from doing it. Patience, good positioning, and an amazing ult basically ensure the win at that point. And when ur not fighting against cooldown heros (so spam/double shield and hitscans) hog needs absolutely no help from his team and nobody has the awareness to check the flanks. Just get the right picks at the right time and be patient and eventually u can solo carry any point provided u can hook people in the ass.
@@davidquintanilla9330 I think the biggest reason I am stuck at plat is because my ults are ass, and my decision making is bad. I feed a lot, so I spend a lot of time respawning. When I don't feed I find it hard to get value (running it down main is what I call it). I mostly play support competitively because of this and I just need better mechanical play against the Tracers, Genjis, and Wrecking balls that constantly sit on top of me. Support ults are also the easiest to get value from.
@@GriFFonRec4 hey at least u can see that. The rest is ez, albeit a long process. It's just good to recognize when the team has weaknesses and what heros are the best to get the win in just a few more crap shows than last season.
Thoughts on Pharah and Junkrat changes: Because hitscan is getting worse with the firerate changes on experimental, the nerfs to Pharah and Junkrat are preemptively addressing the issues that would emerge Additionally, the Junkrat nerf I think is aimed at reducing his shieldbreak potential to bring SOME shields back into the game
Couldn't be happier with your choices of guests! Loved the video. I still think it's weird you didn't have Freedo's name on the last debate's thumbnail if he's not going to be in all of them.
For Console... This isn't really that justified in the podcast. Console is all over the place. There's a HUGE difference between someone from Silver to someone in Plat. I have been all over the place with Elos. I'm going to tell you something.. "If it flies, it's too OP/We don't know how to handle it" -Bronze & Slivers "If it flies you switch and shoot it down/We can try to kill it, but no promises" -Golds & Plats "If it flies, you'll never see it alive/We are killing it no matter what" -Diamonds+ You can't say much for console for the fact that most players that complain aren't the best hit scans or have an issue with their teammates switching. That's legit about it.
@@NaruBrilu I'm in high master's. But my other account is in mid diamond. Low diamond still have that plat mindset unless it's like a masters+ smurf. Otherwise you can't expect low diamond players to play like high diamonds. And sometimes you get unlucky. At least for me, I see the some of the same faces/GT all day long. Also, sometimes hit scans varies person to person. No one can't expect a Junkrat main with 300+ hours to be a god tier McCree with 1 hour game time. And sometimes people have bad days.
@@wendigo374 that's why I put bronze and slivers, gold and plats together. When I made a new account to play with friends down in bronze and silver. I played Pharah, which is my worst hero, I'm complete trash as her. I was able to be in the sky for way longer with the enemy team taking too long to even switch. Even when they switched into double hit scans I only had to drop rarely. When I had to switch to another account for other friends. Golds and Plats, have a skill gap between them. Because you do see a little tiny bit more smurfs or alts down there. Where again Pharah (wasn't my strong suit) but I had to drop down more. You can tell the difference in skill with hit scans. Pharah doesn't get picked as much even if I didn't play her with friends. Skill difference doesn't mean a hero is OP. It's just something people need to understand. Hell, I still see Brigs in game and have high win rates. Again, It's skill and knowing how to play.
9:48 That would be interesting: if nano didn't damage boost melee attacks but it still healed and damage reduced on all targets (eg. it's still worth nanoing the Rein if it saves his life but not for farming shatter, etc.).
Also gives more interesting targets like Zarya instead of Rein, Brig in skirmishes, McCree high noon for a pick and a live McCree without wasting nano. Or maybe increasing max HP by 75%, so it would heal Rein for like 375 and max HP goes to 875. Dunno if flat or percent amount would be more balanced.
For visor I think they should make it more like Valkyrie, he gets infinite ammo and helix is on a lower cooldown or something, maybe the rate of fire gets boosted idk. Soldier is just so average across the board that he can’t compete with the other dps heroes that all have massively impactful ult and/or abilities.
I agree with basically everything they have said. I also never thought about how fire rate changes have even more implications when it comes to how you are used to a certain fire rate and then have to relearn it. Great video, loved this episode!
Mei already has this CC priority going on, like you can’t freeze anyone during a rein Shatter, hurts Mei since the freezing only starts when you get up again
I like the idea that Mercy would stack a healing debuff on target that she heals, that disipates over timewhen the target is not healed by her (maybe like 2 times faster than it stacks). Give her a bit more HPS to compensate, and the pocket healing goes away.
One thing I don't get... if Halt! is so strong and overpowered and meta defining, then why didn't people run D.Va to counter it? If the hero who can easily delete Halts with little effort wasn't being ran to counter it, it couldn't have been THAT strong. Thoughts?
Good question man. Sometimes I think there’s just an echo chamber of compositions. Players sorta hear whispers of what’s “meta” and don’t look for anything else besides it. So sorta what the high level players deem meta at first, is what stays meta until a new patch arrives because no one else likes to innovate
Dva has bad matchups vs the comp in general. Matrix gets countered by Brig CC and Sigma Rock. Double shields and immortality field make her ult practically useless. She also does poor damage vs armor.
Hey svb I just had an idea for a guessing game of where you guess the character by the sounds of their primary fire the fastest. Idk why but I felt the need to share in cause you ever do a charity thing like that again. So cool. That’s what I love about Overwatch community
I think a good way to sum up the difference between a god widow and a brig mindset is button mashing. The equivalent of button mashing should never be more productive than multiple chained skill shots.
A great idea would be to talk about off-meta heroes. Get people that main heroes like Symmetra in the podcast. Discuss the community perception on these heroes, address the toxicity toward those heroes, what could be done to fix them etc. It would be a very interesting podcast!
What’s your thoughts on possible passives for every hero, nothing serious but another option to buff/nerd hero’s. The more abilities the easier it is to buff/nerf. For example Orisa- character outside of combat for 8-10 gains a 10-15% speed movement constantly. It would make her much more mobility which she lacks. I have several other examples for passives, it would be pretty easy to add also.
Dynamite has weird damage numbers. 75 initial followed by 100 burn-over-time, correct? First of all, that should be the other way around; second of all, I've seen tons of comments pointing out that real dynamite doesn't typically set things on fire. I'd love to see it be like 100-125 explosion damage with 25-50 burn-over-time. Reducing the radius 10-15% would be appreciated as well.
Svb: Yeatle what you think about wrecking ball ? Yeatle: Well, wrecking ball is ... Jake: If you take a look at this guy... Yeatle: (waits 10 minutes of Jake knowledge) That's it.
What about a change to orisa where her pull was a charge ability, where you could just tap, and it would go really fast but the radius was smaller, and if you held it, its a little slower, but the radius is larger. Then that would create a skill that isn't just point and shoot.
The ow community has forsure gotten better over the years. I played in 2016 nd placed mid plat, took a 2 year break from the game and got placed silver when i came back. Ive climbed back to plat, but people's game sense has gotten waaay better.
Mercy Change: She needs to build Damage boost resource similar to Moira and healing. Mercy could build DPS buff by using the healing. Makes DPS buff more skillful with a resource management. Thoughts?
I think it would be cool if they dropped 2-2-2, and instead had a rule that you had to have at least one of each role. This would eliminate GOATS but still allow for some triple tank/triple dps stuff. You could also just say no triple support, which would also allow for slambulance (quad tank double support).
SVB, if you are looking to have ideas for content, here’s a few:
*Map debate. What constitutes a good map? Why is King’s Row so good? Why is 2CP bad? (2CP is actually my favorite mode to watch in OWL)
*Rank debate. How does a bronze-gold range player, plat, diamond-GM player, and T500/pro all view the game differently? The challenge would be finding smart low level players, in the sense that they can voice their points well, but I’m sure that’s a consideration with all your guests. In this we can see that say low ranked players need to just get good to deal with Doomfist, but maybe people at all ranks despise Hog being meta, etc. Potentially a lot to learn about the game.
*Game mechanic debate. Are shields healthy? (I think they are good for the game so spam or the current Hog/Zarya meta isn’t strongest). One hit kills (why are Widow headshot and Doom punch OP/annoying, but Rein charge balanced). General CC discussion, what makes it good for the game/healthy. Overall just a “what makes OW function well” video I suppose.
*What makes a good meta. Did people just need to get good at Dive, or did it really impact the experience of support players too harshly? Etc...
Any of these I think would be quite interesting, now that you’ve done all the roles I think this is where you could maybe take it next! I’d love this content (and the current stuff) and hope to see you succeed!
1:56:10 what Yeatle says about the visor is exactly what I was thinking when Jake was talking about reworking visor! I really like this idea.
Why i hate 2cp it's basically Either getting snowballed and losing in 2 minutes or winning a team fight to get 1 or 2 ticks on The point. Also The great meta debate Is a great idea.
I like the Rank Debate idea. Something that's been a long-standing bugbear for me is the thought that maybe the balance of the game should gradually shift from rank to rank. Like maybe Junkrat's splash is 20% weaker in bronze compared to M/GM, 16% weaker in silver, 12% in gold, etc., scaling the more oppressive things in low ranks (hi Bastion) in a way that allows them to be competitive in high ranks but not completely dominant in the metal ranks
@@drkashik That would Be terrible and Make The game too easy, then low ranked players would feel like their not playing The real game, just a game tuned For how Bad they are.
@@lukemchugh719 I don't see how it would make the game easier. If anything, it would remove "easy" options at low ranks. Right now in bronze or silver, if you want to completely clean up, you can go PharMercy. Hitscans can't aim in bronze, essentially by definition, so there's no real response to that pairing. Hitscan players still have to get better, since you don't advance from bronze to silver without playing better than your cohort, and then there's a progression check each rank as you advance and Pharah gains power to keep her competitive as the players become able to viably counter her.
In compensation, they don't have to nerf Pharah for higher ranks (as they've done and are doing) just because she's oppressive at metal ranks. Bastion could be buffed without being an easy win every time in Gold.
Basically, I'm saying that if the game is supposed to be about rock/paper/scissors built out of a combination of team composition and skill, there are a lot of ways to completely short-circuit that play loop at lower ranks *because* the means of countering a specific comp rely solely on a level of skill that's just not there. Players in Bronze *ARE* playing a different game than players in GM, and there's no way around that.
Incredible content!
Yooo
This was such an amazing video
From an incredible content creator, that is much appreciated! 👊
Bruhaps this is incredible content
yeatle is in harbleu's bedroom damn these top 10 offtanks getting real close
*suddenly appears*
Maybe yeatle is the one playing when we see harbleu ball? 🧐
Hog and ball torture
Woow I forgot that's harbleu's back ground also
@@rubenwallace563 it was back when he lived back west but in the last year he moved back east to be with his family and has a cool galaxy lamp
Great DPS debate: “ i’m surprised there aren’t riots in the street with how strong junkrat is”
This debate: “junkrat is dogs**t”
different patches. junk is bad against hitscan and needs shields himself. this meta is just trash to begin with tho
Junk has been pretty bad at higher ranks for like a year now.
@@OneRandomVictory hes literally used on a number of maps in OWL
@@DemonbreedGaming his hitbox Is so big i think it's fair.
@@DemonbreedGaming He's middle of the pack in OWL but even then that is largely recent. There is still a good 6-7 other dps that get played way more than him and have been played for much longer as well.
I love hearing these super high-ranked players' views, but really love how SVB remembers how us metal ranks are affected, because we ARE the majority of the player base. ✌️💛✌️
And gotta love the panel choice, some of the best personalities of players in the game.
@Abhinav Banerjee great points
Abhinav Banerjee yes I will to admit that what's he's done with this series is unprecedented. Also I love how he sticks up for us low ranks. Just like in real life, the top 10% of streamers and players could give a rats ass about our gameplay experience. I love that svb takes them down a peg reminds them we exist.
Yessss
Deon Hollins you have to balance for the best first the you can think of lower ranks
Dmodk nope. You do it separately. It's two completely different worlds in high rank and low rank.
These videos have really filled the void that Jayne left in the UA-cam OW community. We really loves these videos that are long, absolutely stuffed with information, and very sparsely edited. It makes for a great podcast to throw on while I cook or work, and is always both interesting and informative.
What happened to Jayne?? Couldn't find what happened to this jolly man..
@@frigiddemon2342 nothing bad he just doesn't make as much content anymore, but he's still with Dallas as a content creator
Frigid Demon He’s switched to Facebook, and streams there now for some weird reason.
@@eleventyeleven .... so much makes sense now
@@eleventyeleven Facebook? Does he know he's not THAT old yet? 😁
Please keep doing theses SVB, they're golden
I love that this is a thing. Keep going, SVB!!
I wish Jake was on blizzards OW design/balance team. I would love to hear more from him in regards to game balance.
The biggest problem has always been the dev team being out of touch with top level play.
Liberty Prime it’s not just top level, it feels like all levels a lot of the time...
@@libertyprime9307 they're out of touch with gold and plat too
@@wendigo374 I don't view that as a different problem.
If balance were perfect in pro play, theoretically, it wouldn't be an issue if it were poor in, say metal ranks.
Because in that case the balance isn't actually the issue, the issue is that lower level players tend to have certain biases. If the biases are corrected for the balance will resemble higher levels.
@@libertyprime9307 still gm complains about certain characters like junkrat and reaper even though they run all over gold.
jesus karq’s mic is high quality
His voice is just so smoooooooooooooooooooooooothhhhhhhhh
Jake knows what he is talking about. Shock. He really gets to the issues. Someone voices a feeling, he identifies and clarifies, now Blizz solve.
37:30 It's not that console players can't aim, it's that the limitations of the controller won't allow players to aim _fast enough_ while being accurate enough to deal with Pharah (it's why most of the highest tier console players are actually using keyboard and mouse with an adapter and not a controller even though that breaks most of the consoles' ToS).
If you put the aim to linear ramp (where you have a 1 to 1 input from controller) you won't be able to hit anything because you won't have control (think stupid high sensitivity on mouse, _some_ people can do it but it's very rare) but you will be able to physically aim fast enough. If you put it on exponential ramp (where it theoretically will move faster the further the joystick is pushed from it's resting position) you have enough control, but it's too slow to react to the movement of an airborne target that will just abuse the fact that you _physically_ cannot get your cross hairs on them fast enough once they use any of their movement abilities. It is genuinely a problem on console and why Pharah never really fell out of fashion there.
Wtf are you talking about? Pharah on console is just as bad as PC. You literally have to be gold or below to think pharah is op. And BTW if you use linear you have put 20-25 aim ease in and you can easily control it, it just feels a bit weird at first if you're used to dual zone. Stop saying stupid shit like this. No wonder PC players think console players are dogshit. And most people use controller in high ranks, yeah there are some mnk players but bad players like you think that anyone who can hit shots is mnk. Just stfu
I know for a fact it isn't against ToS for PS4. Sony even has an official adapter.
Jaey lmao chill
Jaey u know that most of them are tank mains and usually use heroes like rein which don’t require much accuracy
Um, xBox there’s like 2 Pharahs in the T500. There’s more Bastions I’ve seen in Masters+ than Pharahs she’s that unpopular. Pharah at high level is just 100% niche. It’s just the breakoff point got changed from 249X-2800 on PC and like 280X-3000 on console for who can handle Pharah.
I’m a shit DPS at 2900 on role queue, but every Pharah will instantly switch when anyone switches to any hitscan because they understand. Same at 3400 and 3800.
I adore these podcasts really calming and fun to see ppl talking about the game and arent like hey the game is trash
The Ashe 85->80 damage nerf affects her breakpoint for all 250hp targets. It goes from 3 shot to kill (or 1 HS + 1 Body) to 4 shots (or 2HS) to kill.
Great suggestions on S76's visor to be reworked btw!
i completely agree with trying to make hitscan and projectile equally viable. Currently, hitscan is just better projectile. sure there might be falloff but if compare ashe and hanzo for instance, at 50 meters ashe might hit 70% of her shots at half damage but hanzo only hits 10% at full. I've just been avoiding comp because sure i can play ashe if i need to, but i'm not going to be better than the enemy who has played her and heroes like her since launch. The same way where if double projectile is meta, a hitscan main in my rank probably won't be able to out-duel me in a hanzo mirror match and they'll just have a bad time until they can play the heroes that they're good at.
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Podcast Links
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These are probably my four favourite OW youtubers (no exageration)
Ive watched most of KarQ's 1 tip series.
Jake's OWL VOD reviews are the best I've seen, (joint with Jayne probably)
And Yeatle..... I'm 2 hours into his Unranked to GM wreckingball, so.......
I love just throwin these on 1.5 speed and listen like a podcast while I work
Moira, cleanse orb instead of damage orb. Right click on an ally after pressing e to throw and stick a cleanse orb on them for a short duration. Would only affect 1 person and you'd have to decide whether you want to use healing orb to heal your teammates or throw this cleansing orb for 1 ally.
Edit: your allies would have that icon selection around them that some heroes have already
I’d honestly like if they just completely gutted Moira’s damage orb instead, then make her kit extremely resource-focused. Like increase resource consumption when healing so you can’t just hold it for 10 seconds, maybe 7 max. Increase passive recovery and Moira’s Suck resource recovery. Basically make Moira a more interactive version of Mercy.
Honestly, I would’ve loved if Blizzard just explored what “Support” actually means. Like almost every support is used for 1 purpose: healing. Ana, Mercy, Moira, Bap. Even the others are made viable by survivability like Brig’s Rally and Inspire, Lucio Beat, and Zen trans. The most fun Supports to play are also the ones that actually explore what “supporting the team” actually means. Zen and his damage Orb, Ana’s anti-heal, and Lucio’s speed and boop.
I’d love to see a support hero with exactly 0 heals. Instead maybe a blind, slow, a Mercy beam but only for a decaying shield like Beat Drop, only heals being out of combat, something like Torb’s old armor pack, a more divey support that’s like a suicide-role that boops people into your team at the cost of his life, something. Nah, we just get more “heal is life” heroes.
I just don’t like non-Lucio or Ana healing because it’s just “heal team or feed”. Like if tanks were “put shield up or be flamed” or all DPS having a universal hitscan and being flamed for never using it.
You play dive DPS to feel like an assassin. You play Tank to feel like an unstoppable juggernaut that mows down teams and becomes unkillable. You play support... to heal. Not even to make plays, not to help your teammate reposition with maybe a 1-use teleport, not to scout out flankers safely with a motion sensor. Supports don’t fucking want to play Mercy and heal beam, they do it because it’s necessary. I’d love a meta where healing and non-healing comps are meta.
@@lloydmcgee3030 if an ally is burning, anti naded, discorded, frozen, it would remove that. Like a Zarya bubble.
@@VVheeli look up symmetra 1.0 (pre - dec 13, 2016). I felt dumb running from teammate to teammate giving them a pittance of temporary shields.
Also, look up symmetra 2.0 (dec 13, 2016 - June 28, 2018) and the associated Symm-Torb cheese comps on hanamura. Squishies be running around with nearly double their health in shields and armour.
Gummo Stump
It’s not just shields or doubling health. Even then that would sort of be solved by 2-2-2 and how if Symm had those tools, they’d either just need to make either shields minimal or severely lower damage.
OW’s been out for like 4 years, and we’ve barely experimented with any sort of soft-CC and information-based abilities. All we really have is non-stun displacement like Lucio and Orisa. The only slow effects I can think of are Mei, who is an absolute abomination of a kit, and Symm turrets. It wouldn’t be as noticeable as straight up stuns, and it would help create combos and peeling against dive/tanks without feeling as overbearing if done correctly.
And the only soft-CC that’s not movement related isn’t on a tank or support, it’s Sombra’s hack. Which balance-wise is pretty fucking good. Never oppressive, never overbearing and warping metas, but it’s an insane tool and has had only like 1 change to duration.
I’d love to see Blizzard at least tinker with some debuff/buff effects. Like changing fire rates, making the interact key actually useful by being able to selectively hook your allies out of bad situations, a field that doesn’t hinder walking but you can’t dash/teleport in it, making a character’s model and health pool larger on an ult like Ana’s, increasing the sizes of bullets/splash damage so King’s Row corridors are even scarier, blinds/visual impairment like if Hack disabled HUD except for crosshairs, auditory CC like making enemies hear someone revving a Junkrat Tire when he’s at 30%. Stuff like this.
Or scouting flankers/giving info on certain paths. The only ones that can do this right now are Widow with ult and proxy mine, Hanzo sonics, and Torb and Symm are cheating with turrets. Like cameras, motion sensors, and such. That would be such a neat addition to a support’s kit.
I’m not saying straight up stop making supports with heals, but it would be a nice change of pace if we gave supports more distinguishing tools. Baptiste’s kit is just... so bland in comparison to all the options I just listed. Heal/damage gun, heal aura, window, “don’t die” field. Or Brig: tiny shield, melee, CC, mediocre heals, armor aura.
Meanwhile you could have someone that has a heal/damage gun, a motion sensor, auditory CC, a slowing goop for peeling, and an ult that doubles HP but also doubles your size with no change to movement.
I can forgive Blizzard for not wanting another “unkillable” meta like Symm/Torb, GOATS, and Double Shield, but I’m not forgiving them for basically making Support such a deadbeat class compared to how sweet the options for DPS and Tanks are.
1:52:30
What if Visor allowed headshots but only autoaimed bodyshots? Meaning, if your cursor isn't on the enemy, it still autoaims towards them and bodyshots them. But if your cursor is on their head, you are rewarded for your aim with the crit. That would allow for some amazing skill scaling especially with the loss of spread and increased reload speed.
I want to send a huge thanks to SVB for getting these OW content creators and players together to have a healthy discussion about the game, because we all love it deep down and want it to have a long survivability.
As a guy that doesn’t use twitch much, lot of my old ow channels have moved on from taking about deep meta conversations and these panel style podcast are a god send. Thanks so much to reaching out to so many great content creators!
I just finished watching the vod on twitch, came here to drop a like :)
I love listening to all these personalities. But seeing them in one video talking makes me realize how ultra chill each of their personalities are.
ppl reminiscing about lvl 3 torb turret play of the games.... forgetting that Bob is currently doing something haha
I believe if people were still allowed to 6-stack above 3900 a more coordinated well thought out meta would’ve been found by now. Until we can rely on teammates to counter hog zarya with coordinated dive or rush it’ll stay meta until hog doesn’t absolutely destroy rein/winston
Are people not allowed to 6 man at that level?
@@sunwardloki3898 only under 3900. Above you can only duo
I understand Jake's sentiment on fire rate nerfs, but Blizz is trying to tackle burst damage with this patch. They can't nerf the actual damage numbers, so they have to reduce how often burst lands. These changes give everyone else room to breathe from burst heroes while keeping the single damage output of these heroes.
@Lee McDonald Agreed. Most of these changes are reverts which showcases why they should not have been buffed to begin with.
ReggieLet most of the nerfs are bad nerfs. Why nerf bap
@@dmodk8010 I think most of the nerfs are good. I think Bap will be fine but even if he needs a buff to compensate they can buff his primary heals. This balance patch is aimed at targeting burst damage and burst and aoe heals which have been way too powerful for too long.
@@dmodk8010 cus he is honestly a bit strong, he literally stop ults with abilitys that should not be a thing
d4s0n yo bap is not strong. His healing is meh. His ult is pretty good but his abilities besides imor is bad. What sr are you?
Man, i could listen to these 4 talk for another 3 hours. I love these types of debates.
The issue with console is that when you get to masters or gm, half the players use mouse and keyboard, so really its kinda messed up no matter what you do.
Oh man, I'm in plat on console and I have seen some ridiculous hitscan through m+k... is it not technically cheating?
Elliot Dawson it’s cheating
Love these podcasts svb. You get awesome guests and do a wonderful job hosting. Thanks man!
Superjump actually wasn't possible until an interation of Mercy when she got reworked. The way ga used to work during mass rez, and how it works now are completely different!
Soldier should be able to reload while sprinting and his heal station should be some kind of stim pack that he can just pop and go with that has some Heal over time effect to the tune of like 150 total healing for himself. And I feel like the sprint re-work could work or just keep it the same.
I don´t agree with the stimpack thing cuz I use my healthstation mainly to heal teammates such as tanks, healers can top me off quite fast if I play correctly in their los, but tanks might gain more from a heal over time like health station
I totally agree with Jake that Genji's ultimate charge should've been what was nerfed. Maybe the secondary fire rate could've been set to a middle ground, but it sucks that he's basically back to being a blade-bot.
If they continue this nerf everything then genji damge would have been change anyway and genji will be a lot better as everything gets nerfed back down
@Abhinav Banerjee You mean like Ball? If you are alone, Genji has a decent chance to assassinate you. If you have a LITTLE bit of peel he flops. He has 0 self sustain, so if he's in your back line alone you just need to hit him to keep him from going in. If he has heals, that means he's with his team and in that case he SHOULD be able to kill you if he has the resources. Right now, he's back to being a blade bot. Even with resources it's just too hard to kill people through any sort of healing, unless you are blading.
his neutral game was way too strong against tanks. he was literally countering winston, someone who is supposed to counter him.
I've had this idea that they could make blade 4 sec and give genji damage reduction
Now it's more like tracer's ult in a sense that it doesn't affect many people but still can be crucial in winning a fight, it isn't as dangerous to use for genji so that he won't be as afraid to use it, it's easier to avoid since you only have to boop him away once or wait for a small bit, and what i personally as the genji main want - nanoblade is no longer a teamwipe, no longer a boring i win button and not a part of genji that makes it unable to improve him in some other form without hurting the health of the game.
@Abhinav Banerjee it was fine. They overturned him then made him worse. His alternate fire speed is his constant damage. Making it slow kills the character. Ill take the damage nerf but give me back my speed
i love these discussions. SVB thank you for making my work week with these podcasts in the background.
Commenting for the algorithm or something.
Hi SVB, I've been binge watching your videos lately and it's helped me and my friends a lot, and it's also helped my mentality in general
Agreed
I tried to recommend SVB’s vids to my friends on ps4 and they said I was being too preachy and condescending 😖
Yea, I had to stop playing with them after they did that... as ppl above me have mentioned the overall mentality can have a huge effect on things and from now on I only play with people with a mindset focused on growth and improvement.
We all can find something to improve on no matter what rank. After every game, win lose or draw, everyone should be able to identify at least one thing they could have done better.
The mindset Is The thing, after watching his videos, whenever i lose in comp, i just think There's always something i could have done better.
I disagree with the idea of “you can’t use *insert hero* at high ranks.”
I personally find it fun and skillful when people take “low skill bad heroes” and find a way to min max their kit with high IQ and climb to high ranks (as long as the hero is actually balanced of course)
The thing is there are heroes that for the most part you can’t use in higher ranks. Pharrah for example will be shut down 95% if the time by a hitscan on the other team. There are just things that don’t work past diamond
Lee McDonald yeah I get you. Got to high diamond/low masters as junk a while back but haven’t played dps in forever because I’m a tank main
Some heroes are just entry level heroes by design. Bastion and reaper are good examples. They have limited skill ceilings because they don't have abilities they can exploit (think of tracers maximizing movement abilities or widow headshots). Gold Bastion vs GM Bastion will be doing similar things, the main differences would be positioning and team coordination, otherwise aim would be similar.
Jadeon Howell bastion actually has a lot of tech lower levels don’t use but that is agreeable to a point. Healing between ult shots, rocket jumping, and any GM player is going to have extremely better aim than golds
@@jadeonhowell2209 Reaper does not have a low skill ceiling. You need perfect aim and discipline use his abillities
Love these episodes, SVB. It's literally what the OW community needs. Love it!
18:10 Then it's good they nerfed the direct and not the splash. It's an overall lesser nerf since the splash does the same damage (the easier to land) but IF the damage was gonna be nerfed you'd want the harder portion to hit to get nerfed not the easier.
Overall it's just a general scale back of damage. 120 is pretty much the most damage you can do with a projectile now (not counting headshots) and I think it's more to keep things in line than anything else I suppose (rather than random characters doing random amounts, sym 140 but only on a full charge, junk rat 130 on a direct, pharah 120 on a direct but 80 splash ect ect).
Great vid! I think it would be interesting to have a lower ranked player present in the discussion so that we see the changes affect them from their own perspective
My thoughts on fixing double shield tanks while not totally gutting either orisa or sigma.
Orisa:
Halt - Have it not have priority over movement abilities and have it be able to break like a hog hook. if say genji, mccree tracer dash out of it and get yoinked back to narnia, make that a thing of the past. Then give it a 7 meter aoe and a faint outline of its reach and it makes it easier to spot and the enemy is aware of its boundaries.
That way the ability is still incredibly strong, but will have more counter play and its threat is pronounced. people will learn to play around it, but it could still be an incredibly potent positional punisher as opposed to a team grabber. i see it then requiring smarter usage as opposed to 'haha me see red me click right' while not spaying orisas carry potential.
Fortify - Back to vanilla values. This is a net buff and will compensate for her reverted health and worse shield, improves her personal survivability while not being depndant on her shield so it only benefits her. She cant just be focused down for free because you shot through her plastic shield but she cant be brazen in her positioning even with this buff because of her prior nerfs.
Sigma:
Barrier - Revert the shield deploy speed to its vanilla speeds. to compensate reduce the width of it making it more reminiscent of a square. make it only useful to actively deny a specific damage source or corner as opposed to entire sightlines and chokes. It would make sigma more rewarding for reading or predicting people and rewarding for having good reflexes and game sense without granting him the shield strength of the maintanks as it would be too weak to effectively absorb collective spam. thus reducing its efficacy in lazy block all damage placements and promoting a higher apm, more watchdog approach and a viable counter to snipers without being oppressive. This might make him even better but the constant juggling between damage and precise shield placement makes him harder but may make him the goat in 4k+. this would make his skill ceiling ridiculous.
oh also let soldier reload while sprinting
Nice thought! Specially the soldier reload🤣
57:30 you can get armor below 50% health if you overload with torb.
For Pharah, I disagree she even needs to be touched on console. We all have aim assist and she's not hard to hit when she's at the right angle, so the interaction completely revolves around her trying to position above you. It's counterplay with positioning, and she just acts as another character barrier to overcome between plat and diamond (in my opinion).
From the title alone, it's an instant subscription from me lol. Now time to binge.
The thing I got out of this is a re-affirmation of my opinion that they really, really need to work on lessening the inherent synergy between given heroes. Pharah is dogshit by herself. Even on console in gold, solo Pharah is awful. Pharah-Mercy though, and it's just way more difficult to secure the kill, unless you're Widow or boosted Ashe.
The obvious other pair is Orisa-Sigma. Both heroes have been HEAVILY nerfed, mostly because of how well they work together. If Orisa wasn't in the game, Sigma definitely wouldn't be quite this nerfed. But it's not just them, the dive tanks (and heroes) all pressing shift on a target is also not necessarily healthy. Teamwork should come more from actual human coordination, not a kit just hard enabling another kit, I think. It would allow more diverse tank lines, though...perhaps a bad time to mention that since Hog-Zarya is meta right now, which is a weird, not traditional pairing.
Maybe change double shield so different shield combos have different amounts. Solo Orisa having 900, Solo Sig has 1k, but double shield has 600 and 800 respectively. Rein has base 2k but with Orisa it’s 700 and 1.5k.
It would be a more interesting meta at the very least and gives the community time to actually experiment. Also gives higher ranks and OWL more to think about on a Macro level.
My fav Overwatch Podcast/discussion. Love this SVB, keep doing more!
Skill and voice chat send to scale with rank u find more speaking in higher ranks as well as game sense aim ability rises as well it's so apparent that sometimes I feel it should just be considered a skill to be in voice chat
Not necessarily the case from non-native English countries
Honestly, if you’re able to rally a team to go an obscure route or manage team ults, you can hit Diamond easy.
Macro skill is just so underrated outside of T500 and pro levels.
Pharah and Junkrat do not need nerfs on console, they are extremely niche picks once you reach masters or above.
True. Only low ranked players complaining about pharah, same as pc
I’m a junk main and I don’t even play him right now that’s how bad this meta is
Yes once you reach masters and above, which most players have not
@@Jay-rl8vt nah even if youre diamond or plat its easy to deal with pharah and junk. If youre in those ranks and you cant deal with them you should probably be gold or below
Jaey well tell that to all the plats I have played with including myself who can’t beat a pharah
Just the fact that this lineup has been assembled. I'll watch.
I have been playing this game for almost four years and I only learned today that Widow has a unique crit modifier
For the Pharah x Mercy interaction, they could make it so that Mercy's Guardian Angel has a longer cooldown for flying to the same hero repeatedly. So lets say you GA to Pharah in the air 3 times in a row, for every time the GA cooldown extends with 2 seconds. That way Mercy is not nerfed if she GAs to different heroes each time, but if she GAs to the same hero in succession, a time penalty is added to GA. This would mean she can't stay with Pharah in the air nearly as much as she used to do, and she has to think more about how she uses GA in that specific synergy - which would not impact most other synergies she has, as Pharah realistically is the only hero where Mercy would GA to multiple times in succession to be able to stay in the air with Pharah.
To fix Pharrah, I like Jake’s idea where the play style needs to change. My idea: each of Pharrah’s Rockets has its own fuel gauge. The fuel contributes to how far the rocket travels and how much damage is dealt. If more fuel is consumed for travel, it equates to less damage when it explodes. To where if you are up close to your target, less fuel for travel, thus more damage. That would also be true for self damage. Thoughts anyone?
Three of my favorite players/content creators. Love this!
Ashe fall off starts at 20m and reaches max at 40m which is actually pretty short so the break point with mercy boost is pretty easy to reach
1:10:08 I agree with this a lot. Of course you could try to force your team to be coordinated in gold. But if you get the same or more value from just locking hog and landing hooks, then people aren't going to do it (and shouldn't)
Idea for adding challenge and tech to swinging heroes (rein, brig):
remove auto swing and cause early swing clicks to force an addition to the internal cooldown by some fraction of a second. Then buff the per hit damage or the general speed of swings so that potential damage is higher but much tougher to achieve.
Effectively, as you click in proper time you get more damage and have a timing version of crit scale.
1:37:51 Super Jump was not possible 4 years ago. Super jump was a result of the Mercy rework (ie. only after mass rez was taken out in very late 2017) because it actually changed the way Guardian Angel functioned in the rework to allow _her_ position to determine how she moved as opposed to her _teammate's_ position (which is why Super Jump works, you abuse _Mercy's_ position in space). You could occasionally abuse map terrain if it was _just_ right (usually from Anubis' half walls), but usually all that would happen is it would break the GA, not allow you to continue to your target, cancel the ability, and put it to cooldown usually dropping you like a fucking stone (because it would occasionally glitch her passive glide into not working for the duration of the cooldown). Old GA was pretty bad, and it DEFINITELY wouldn't have been able to super jump just because of the way it was coded.
Well then its a bug and should removed.
To make the synergy with Phara and Mercy less strong why not make it so Mercy's guardian angle is on cool down until she touches the ground? This way she'll function normally in most fights but with Phara she'll only be able to pocket her for a short time. It''ll also add some risk vs reward because the longer she uses her passive to stay the in sky the more vulnerable she'll be since her passive is pretty slow. I pretty much never play mercy though so maybe there's something I'm missing that's than obvious flaw with that. What do you mercy players out there think about it?
pharahmercy isnt strong enough to warrant this
That kind of superfucks her mobility. No more flying back from off the map, ever. Super jump less useful too and that's her one skilled thing.
That’s interesting as a change concept, but it would completely gut Mercy’s other roles. It would also be really hard to code/change correctly with regards to her ult.
And with Blizzard bugs/balancing, I’d say no.
In plat console you can pharah into three hitscans (including ana) and still be fine consistently.
Make Phara like the soldier in TF2 change my mind...
Holy shit yeah. More versatility at the cost of skill. She should have more horizontal mobility. Rocket jumping would be so much fun in Overwatch.
@@tonyt987 Could also just make her mobility be based off of her concussive e ability, like give her 4 or so that recharge like blink and she can essentially rocket jump with them to get off the ground and shoot off of walls and roofs for horizontal momentum as well. Maybe make her jets just hover and retain speed instead of gain vertical height.
Slight tangent because I was disappointed they didn't bring it up but I don't know how Blizzard expects queue times to ever be fixed when there are 2 more DPS than there are tanks and healers combined.
SVB, I just want to thank you for always keeping those of us with no aim down in the metal ranks in mind!
“What a bunch of idiots, imagine not a shot.” 😂
Guy is sticking up for diamond and below. Good looks SVB
*not hitting a shot
The classic double post
Looking forward to hearing you guys thoughts on the experiment
Awesome content, always happy to watch more :)
SVB, your authentic enjoyment of OW reminds me of how good this game can be
Having played on console since release, i think we have pretty much given up on them making specific balance changes for us. Torb had one on for his turret, Ana got one that made her slightly better and thats been it, over what nearly 4 years. They just don't care about hero balance on console. Heck the worse thing isn't even Pharah, its the god damn Widow players with plug in keyboard and mouse who still get the aim assist for playing on console.
At 1:21:00, y'all are talking about single target speed boost. So what about Mercy having a different key binding for a single target speed boost, like a green energy beam? That would make her a bit more relevant.
As someone who really loves the games spirit but has taken huge breaks inbetween play, I really love the honest breakdown from all the different perspectives of how the game currently but also no longer functions.
Despite this being nearly 3h long the topics and discussion were practically always impactful.
👍
The new meta I call it hide and seek its rein hog where rein just peeks enough for hog to get hook or to defend from hook while also having double sniper or Hanzo, support would be Ana and either Lucio or zen. Mostly long range fights where all reins hate to live because all they are is a shield until they are nanoed
This at least for escort defence let them play into you and beat them up
I'm conflicted. I kinda feel like Hog Zarya being meta n the lower ranks is fine because teamwork doesn't work anyways. Like Reinhardts in Plat don't even WANT to play Reinhardt, they just think we need one so they stand in the choke and hold their shield effectively making it a 5.2v6 (or worse 5.2v5.2 if they both have Reinhardt). With Hog Zayra being the perceived "meta" even at the lower ranks it makes it so you have to rely on actual map geometry to succeed which teaches the metal ranks how to play the game WITHOUT a big blue barrier in between you and your enemies. Once you learn how to effectively play like that having Rein being meta at a higher rank would be ideal I think. Basically, in my perfect world, I think Hog Zarya would be meta in the lower ranks due to them being good solo picks and coordination being so low. Like it's ACTUALLY more powerful to run those if you aren't using strategies vs a team running Rein but not talking. BUT as soon as some team play comes into the mix Reinhardt should start to be stronger. Basically Hog Zarya should be a skill check and once you get past them you are allowed to play the more team intensive comps because you already know how to position correctly and play individually AND incorporating team play makes with these skill sets unlocks characters like Reinhardt or Orisa being good.
Hog and zarya are always the best heros in the low ranks lol
@@davidquintanilla9330 Not previously. I think Rein/Zar was better even with little communication and teamwork just because Hog was so bad. Now anyone and their mother can hook 1 shot so even at teh lower ranks the consistency is there for Hog players. I will agree that Zar is pretty much always strong at the lower ranks because of player skill with snipers, but it's not like they manage their CDs properly and usually feed once they hit 100 energy. I'm not saying I'm excluded from this. That's the reason I suck at the metal ranks too is because of these mistakes.
@@GriFFonRec4 well if u were a smurf than I'd recommend those two tanks to climb now that sigmas pretty weak. With zarya u basically eliminate the disadvantages of having a feeding teammate, provided u save bubbles for important interactions, and ur damage gets insane from doing it. Patience, good positioning, and an amazing ult basically ensure the win at that point. And when ur not fighting against cooldown heros (so spam/double shield and hitscans) hog needs absolutely no help from his team and nobody has the awareness to check the flanks. Just get the right picks at the right time and be patient and eventually u can solo carry any point provided u can hook people in the ass.
@@davidquintanilla9330 I think the biggest reason I am stuck at plat is because my ults are ass, and my decision making is bad. I feed a lot, so I spend a lot of time respawning. When I don't feed I find it hard to get value (running it down main is what I call it). I mostly play support competitively because of this and I just need better mechanical play against the Tracers, Genjis, and Wrecking balls that constantly sit on top of me. Support ults are also the easiest to get value from.
@@GriFFonRec4 hey at least u can see that. The rest is ez, albeit a long process. It's just good to recognize when the team has weaknesses and what heros are the best to get the win in just a few more crap shows than last season.
I like reverse damage fall off on widow that would let some dive charecters to preasure her
Thoughts on Pharah and Junkrat changes:
Because hitscan is getting worse with the firerate changes on experimental, the nerfs to Pharah and Junkrat are preemptively addressing the issues that would emerge
Additionally, the Junkrat nerf I think is aimed at reducing his shieldbreak potential to bring SOME shields back into the game
Couldn't be happier with your choices of guests! Loved the video. I still think it's weird you didn't have Freedo's name on the last debate's thumbnail if he's not going to be in all of them.
wow this is the first time a vid has had 0 views, 0 comments AND 0 likes for me
Thanks for not commenting "first"
I love that rein rage idea. Sounds appropriate for his character
Things I’ve never clicked on as fast as I did-
Elden Ring Trailer and this
Please do more of these 🙏
For Console... This isn't really that justified in the podcast. Console is all over the place. There's a HUGE difference between someone from Silver to someone in Plat. I have been all over the place with Elos. I'm going to tell you something..
"If it flies, it's too OP/We don't know how to handle it" -Bronze & Slivers
"If it flies you switch and shoot it down/We can try to kill it, but no promises" -Golds & Plats
"If it flies, you'll never see it alive/We are killing it no matter what" -Diamonds+
You can't say much for console for the fact that most players that complain aren't the best hit scans or have an issue with their teammates switching. That's legit about it.
Damn what diamonds r u playing with and how do i team with them? Even in my masters games a good pharmercy is hella hard to take down
Finally someone who isn't braindead. Pharah on console is just as bad as she is on PC. It's just low ranked players complaining
@@NaruBrilu I'm in high master's. But my other account is in mid diamond. Low diamond still have that plat mindset unless it's like a masters+ smurf. Otherwise you can't expect low diamond players to play like high diamonds. And sometimes you get unlucky. At least for me, I see the some of the same faces/GT all day long.
Also, sometimes hit scans varies person to person. No one can't expect a Junkrat main with 300+ hours to be a god tier McCree with 1 hour game time. And sometimes people have bad days.
Bronze/silver pharahs play differently than gold/plat pharahs also. Gold/plat pharahs peak corners in the air and make it a lot harder to kill them.
@@wendigo374 that's why I put bronze and slivers, gold and plats together. When I made a new account to play with friends down in bronze and silver. I played Pharah, which is my worst hero, I'm complete trash as her. I was able to be in the sky for way longer with the enemy team taking too long to even switch. Even when they switched into double hit scans I only had to drop rarely. When I had to switch to another account for other friends. Golds and Plats, have a skill gap between them. Because you do see a little tiny bit more smurfs or alts down there. Where again Pharah (wasn't my strong suit) but I had to drop down more. You can tell the difference in skill with hit scans. Pharah doesn't get picked as much even if I didn't play her with friends.
Skill difference doesn't mean a hero is OP. It's just something people need to understand. Hell, I still see Brigs in game and have high win rates. Again, It's skill and knowing how to play.
For yeatle.
CCs may not be a problem for a HP bag like wreckingball but for a doomfist player they are hell
9:48 That would be interesting: if nano didn't damage boost melee attacks but it still healed and damage reduced on all targets (eg. it's still worth nanoing the Rein if it saves his life but not for farming shatter, etc.).
Also gives more interesting targets like Zarya instead of Rein, Brig in skirmishes, McCree high noon for a pick and a live McCree without wasting nano.
Or maybe increasing max HP by 75%, so it would heal Rein for like 375 and max HP goes to 875. Dunno if flat or percent amount would be more balanced.
Love these talks honestly
For visor I think they should make it more like Valkyrie, he gets infinite ammo and helix is on a lower cooldown or something, maybe the rate of fire gets boosted idk. Soldier is just so average across the board that he can’t compete with the other dps heroes that all have massively impactful ult and/or abilities.
Thanks for remembering metal ranks!❤️
I agree with basically everything they have said. I also never thought about how fire rate changes have even more implications when it comes to how you are used to a certain fire rate and then have to relearn it. Great video, loved this episode!
Truth
As a gm hitscan for console, pharah is a pain. Even though I can consistently hit her, when she rotates around the map to kill you its very annoyinh
Mei already has this CC priority going on, like you can’t freeze anyone during a rein Shatter, hurts Mei since the freezing only starts when you get up again
Pretty sure that's not true, that's simply a visual/animation thing.
I like the idea that Mercy would stack a healing debuff on target that she heals, that disipates over timewhen the target is not healed by her (maybe like 2 times faster than it stacks). Give her a bit more HPS to compensate, and the pocket healing goes away.
One thing I don't get... if Halt! is so strong and overpowered and meta defining, then why didn't people run D.Va to counter it? If the hero who can easily delete Halts with little effort wasn't being ran to counter it, it couldn't have been THAT strong. Thoughts?
Good question man. Sometimes I think there’s just an echo chamber of compositions. Players sorta hear whispers of what’s “meta” and don’t look for anything else besides it. So sorta what the high level players deem meta at first, is what stays meta until a new patch arrives because no one else likes to innovate
Dva has bad matchups vs the comp in general. Matrix gets countered by Brig CC and Sigma Rock. Double shields and immortality field make her ult practically useless. She also does poor damage vs armor.
Hey svb I just had an idea for a guessing game of where you guess the character by the sounds of their primary fire the fastest. Idk why but I felt the need to share in cause you ever do a charity thing like that again. So cool. That’s what I love about Overwatch community
I think a good way to sum up the difference between a god widow and a brig mindset is button mashing. The equivalent of button mashing should never be more productive than multiple chained skill shots.
A great idea would be to talk about off-meta heroes. Get people that main heroes like Symmetra in the podcast. Discuss the community perception on these heroes, address the toxicity toward those heroes, what could be done to fix them etc. It would be a very interesting podcast!
What’s your thoughts on possible passives for every hero, nothing serious but another option to buff/nerd hero’s. The more abilities the easier it is to buff/nerf.
For example Orisa- character outside of combat for 8-10 gains a 10-15% speed movement constantly. It would make her much more mobility which she lacks.
I have several other examples for passives, it would be pretty easy to add also.
Dynamite has weird damage numbers. 75 initial followed by 100 burn-over-time, correct? First of all, that should be the other way around; second of all, I've seen tons of comments pointing out that real dynamite doesn't typically set things on fire. I'd love to see it be like 100-125 explosion damage with 25-50 burn-over-time. Reducing the radius 10-15% would be appreciated as well.
Svb: Yeatle what you think about wrecking ball ?
Yeatle: Well, wrecking ball is ...
Jake: If you take a look at this guy...
Yeatle: (waits 10 minutes of Jake knowledge) That's it.
What about a change to orisa where her pull was a charge ability, where you could just tap, and it would go really fast but the radius was smaller, and if you held it, its a little slower, but the radius is larger. Then that would create a skill that isn't just point and shoot.
No
The ow community has forsure gotten better over the years. I played in 2016 nd placed mid plat, took a 2 year break from the game and got placed silver when i came back. Ive climbed back to plat, but people's game sense has gotten waaay better.
Mercy Change: She needs to build Damage boost resource similar to Moira and healing. Mercy could build DPS buff by using the healing. Makes DPS buff more skillful with a resource management. Thoughts?
I’m a diamond junk main and I agree that this could not be a worse meta for junk
I think it would be cool if they dropped 2-2-2, and instead had a rule that you had to have at least one of each role. This would eliminate GOATS but still allow for some triple tank/triple dps stuff. You could also just say no triple support, which would also allow for slambulance (quad tank double support).