Did Hans Niemann cheat? | Hikaru Nakamura and Lex Fridman
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2022
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Hikaru Nakamura: Chess...
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Hikaru Nakamura is a chess super grandmaster and is currently the #1 ranked blitz chess player in the world. He is also one of the top chess streamers on Twitch and UA-cam.
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Full podcast episode: ua-cam.com/video/oJNvxYEcVAY/v-deo.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: ua-cam.com/users/lexfridman
Guest bio: Hikaru Nakamura is a chess super grandmaster and is currently the #1 ranked blitz chess player in the world. He is also one of the top chess streamers on Twitch and UA-cam.
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They should collect all electronic devices by the entrance to the tournaments and then EMP the playing area before the camera men are allowed in lol
Iiiii
I can confirm he cheated. I was in his ass giving him the answers the whole tournament.
Nice, have you seen them? 😅. Then, why don't you report it? You must be an accomplice 😂.
@@dante0817 i think you misread that my friend lol.
Thats my type of humor
I can confirm. I’m currently still in his left testicle
@@venheartzeil3070 What did he misread? And why didn't you report it?
They should hold chess tournaments inside an MRI machine
Good idea, that would tear the beads right outta ya!
@@SamuelPearlman or it will make them go back and forth ;) perhaps we can compute which one it is lol
Nah, you just have to crawl through one to get into the tournaments. They could make it fun by putting in flashing lights and scary noises! You could change themes depending on what time of year it is. Those kid GM's that pop up here and there would love it.
Or in an airport past security
inside a faraday cage
Hikaru is a grand master, at dodging legal issues, chess too
I'm glad I scrolled down to read some comments instead of watching the whole video. You've saved me 12 minutes with the implied result of Hikaru not wanting to commit to a position.
@@MrVvulf which is ironic, because committing to positions is all chess players do
This is an idiotic take. There were never real legal issues in the first place. They were completely fabricated and it went away just as easily as it came up. The moron kid sued for more money than the entire chess industry is worth. He could’ve been counter sued handily
As a chess fan, I will no longer trust the results unless super GMs pass through full body scanners and play naked with a virtual audience.
Specially the hot players XD they should all play naked from now on.
And with 1h delay
We need cavity checks ASAP. Roto rooter. Dont stop until you hit the back of their teeth.
@@Wheatsolo constant cavity surveillance, a live feed, of all cavities at all time, 3 weeks before tournaments. It's the only way
I mean that whould be actully quite nice
The simple answer, obviously, is to build giant faraday cages around the chess boards. And it would probably be best to lock the players in them too. And poke them with long shafts from time to time.
Yeah but you could still contract your back door a certain amount of times for the plug to understand what happened and it will send you vibrations as an answer. Doesn't need to be network based knowing the recent achievements in embedded systems.
@@whannabi @Count of St. Germain yea this was somewhat satiric, the real suggestion would be for maybe the building/whole room to be a cage, I figured there would be no efficient way to communicate with a engine within it without being super obvious, but I was also for some reason assuming that someone somewhere would have to interface with the engine through some kind of visual board, which obviously isn't true, so yea holy shit yea that's fucked up and insane, I guess you could sit there contracting your asshole lol. Hot new Christmas item for lions den to add to the shelves.
This made me laugh harder than it should have
hohoho
Just drug the chess players, take them to an undisclosed location, conduct a full cavity search, and have them play inside faraday cages naked.
Its a year later. Can we get an update?
Hikaru is a very precise player that likes to imagine games how an equal opponent would behave or should behave and he pretty much said Hans going too far 😂
The way Lex did that ‘The Office’ look at cam moment when he asked the Data Scientist question! Really got me 😂
What's the reference here?
@@programmer1840 ua-cam.com/video/cmJudQW0GwM/v-deo.html
Hikaru Nakamura on his UA-cam channel and on his twitch streams, during the cheating scandal, tend to repat phrase "I'm not data scientist..." reviewing videos that were analyzing statistically probability of Hans cheating or not
He used "I'm not data scientist..." almost in every sentence while reviewing those videos. It was really funny to watch
@@BRAOSGEELR lols, thanks.
I didn't know about his videos, but I also found it hilarious because he had just said "..probably be able to say with very certain confidence..." which told me he is absolutely not an expert in statistics
*Hikaru's speech is absolutely Lucid. Very good to see thoughtful analysis and contemplation in a world of emotional outbursts and irrational thinking.*
Lol
obviously. he is a chess grandmaster
@@changenoways9555 Ummm, obviously. It was a joke.
@@dclomg5 no it wasnt lol. Get off your burner
Goddamn you chess people are cringey as hell lmao
You can tell Hikaru’s lawyer told him to stop speaking about it, at least not make new allegations and whatnot. Hikaru is a US citizen, contrary to Magnus, so I guess he cares a little more about the defamation lawsuit.
Or this is simply geniuenly what he thinks, Hikaru always seemed calculated to me and doesn't tend to respond overly emotional
Magnus was here on US soil when he made his decision. Not sure if that has any bearing on his foreign extradition? Victor
You actually have it pretty much dead wrong lmao Hikaru doesn’t need to worry nearly as much because the court will almost certainly find it doesn’t have jurisdiction for him, meanwhile Magnus might be a Norwegian citizen but if he loses this case they can seize any assets he has in the US. And the court will have personal jurisdiction for Magnus who was physically in Missouri for the tournament and likely has some other connections to the state via his business ventures
This isn't any different to what he has been saying previously, just saying it a bit more formally
@@rosegolubic6647 No, it doesn't matter one bit. US have literally no power to do anything about it unless the other country allows it.
Here’s the thing, they are saying it’s either he 1) became super good out of nowhere 2) cheated or 3) he literally got lucky as hell by guessing/stumbling upon moves using a pattern that can only be described as machine like.
In other words, this dude went level 6 -7 to level 10++ and literally when asked how he improved so much, he said “the chess speaks for itself”
But in this case , his chess was saying “machine”
6 months late, but it should never be forgotten that he is the only player at his level that struggles to analyze games, particularly suspicious when he couldn't explain his decisions in the Magnus game.
I think based on his analysis that had mistakes he either cheated or like he said got lucky with having looked at the exact line and choosing the right moves for the wrong reason.
He sure as hell cheated, and once the cooperation ends, the second party of the crime will someday come clean I presume..the anal beadz are very likely to be true, that or something in the shoe sole..Solution is simple, no phones/cameras allowed inside and at least 30 minutes delay in broadcasting..voila
There is a player that comes to mind...Oh yeah Fischer.
@@dannygjkthat’s not true he wrote in depth books on his games that are considered a must read. Nobody ghost wrote his books
one thing for sure is if someone cheats at something before the chances that they will again are exponentially higher than those who never cheat. It could be that the guy just cant vocalize his strategy but is still good at chess. Or he cheats and appears unexceptional.
It's borderline impossible to catch a cheater with out finding a device or irrefutable proof of signaling, especially if they're cheating intelligently. Using an engine doesn't necessarily mean "playing the best moves", you can program an engine to play at any strength you want or only use it sporadically. If the player is actually 2500+ strength catching them is exponentially harder because they can explain difficult positions and already have a deep understanding of tactics/strategy. Professionals are actually going to have to play in a faraday cage or some other means of jamming/electronic interference.
You can tell an engine to play at a certain level, yes, but programming an engine to play like a human while being able to justify its move as if they’re your own is a different matter entirely.
Idk. I watched his post game interview, and he was getting outplayed by the interviewer while trying to explain the move..
Bro you casual ... You just don't pick top engine move which looks sus af. You chose human like move that's still good. Damn chess wannabees.
@@xtripx4273 guess you're an English casual if you can't understand that's what I just described.
Faraday cage... no.
I feel like if delayed the moves played by 1 to spectators and have the two players in a solitary area in person with each other, maybe it could reduce the chance of cheating
It’s 12 months later… so did he cheat?
He got caught out and confronted in person. Its so crazy I sware to god.
@@fl8nie690cap
no (not otb at least)
Nope... Don't see people speaking anymore
No he did not cheat. Someone did a very through and fair analysis of it a few months ago, it's well worth a watch. It's called "How Hans Niemann BROKE Chess"
Those curly locks could hold atleast two knights and a bishop. Maybe even two or three pawns. Wouldn't put it past him to pull the old yawn and ruffle to tuck a rook from behind the ear.
4 months later, niemann's stellar improvement stopped. He started losing to less rated players and, well, his chess speaks for itself.
They've gone down again. However he's playing a lot of chess tournaments. Fabio explained that this can be detrimental to your elo. So you shouldn't link his small decline to him not being able to cheat.
@@Joe-og6bralso Hikaru and his goons are conveniently forgetting that the application used to say hans played 100 percent wasn’t just one engine, it was the combination of over a dozen engines which will take the highest move accuracy and display THAT. For example if stockfish 7 displayed a score of 100, but stockfish 16 displayed a score of 90, the app would choose the 100 to display. This is ridiculous because stockfish 16 is FAR superior to 7. This process was done with over a DOZEN engine, a lot of which are old an outdated. When analyzed with stockfish 16, his moves are a lot more normal to what you’d expect from a GM. Oh and the app itself says it’s not reliable and shouldn’t be used for cheat detection
Hot Tub Chess matches for budget security measures and elevated entertainment value is what I'd suggest for tournaments
Just use signal blocker device in like 50m radius when the match is being played then technology cant be at play as the signal cant be transsmised but yeah phones or other electronic singal wont work also in that space
He's been caught cheating multiple times. As late as 2020. It's hard to convince people you didn't cheat if you get caught once.. Getting caught several times makes it hard to trust his words.
"Alleged cheating". Still no evidence has been presented as of late. Let's not jump to conclusions until the evidence comes out.
He has never been caught cheating in any onboard games. He beat Carlsen on board
@@aml7758 difficult to believe someone that has likely cheated 100 times
@@hunterty1747 How could he cheat on board In St. Louis? He could see somewhere 20 moves of the rare opening that Magnus used?
@@aml7758 cheating is cheating, the medium doesn't really matter, it shows that he can't ever really be trusted again. He has to accept he's Always going to he distrusted.
It wasn't random online games he was cheating in, he was cheating in tournaments with prize pools.
Can you try getting an interview with Hans, if that's possible? Would love to get insights from the man himself
or the engine
His chess speaks for itself
No he's a cheater
@@magnusred2945 You don't know that for sure and if you think you do you're basically brain dead.
@@Pat315 ???? He's admitted to cheating multiple times already online? He's admitted to it. You sound and act like you vote Democrat lol
FIDE just needs to mandate the use of EMP suppository devices for table games.
What about those things whichc brings ALL SIGNALS down in the room ? You couldnt see game on a display but let them olay that way
“Something clinched at a certain age and he suddenly started improving.” Hikaru- I translated for everyone to easily understand
exactly! anyone who has followed chess during the past decade knows this
hes literally been caught cheating before more than once
@@John-yp2ho I get that but those were in online tournaments. He was there in person with all the screening that was mandated by the competition. I'm not saying that he didn't cheat. It's something that just needs a little bit more clarification.
Here's the stats:
1. Bobby Fischer’s peak rating is 2895 - he never got a 100% accurate game.
2. Garry Kasparov’s peak rating is 2856 - he never got a 100% accurate game.
3. Magnus (peak rating 2882) is 31 and has had only 2 perfect games in his whole career.
Hans Niemann’s peak rating is 2688 - and he has had 10 games with 100% accuracy. One of those games was 42 consecutive perfect moves, and it was not a blowout type of game either. Doing that is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE. Hans is 19 years old with 10 perfect games already,
CONCLUSION: Either Hans is a super genius, an alien, a legit psychic, or a CHEATER. SADLY, his rating doesn't reflect him to be the first 3, only the latter.
Watch his games , he blunders here there so idk
Or… he got lucky with the moves
@@parasrana2335 or, he chucks in bad moves to mask when he cheats?
Bobby fishers peak rating was 2785 as far as i know. Magnus is the highest rated player in history so it can't be higher than that.
@@wrathofgrothendieck the probability that he could luck himself into 42 consecutive moves is impossible without intervention.
Wouldn't sitting the players in some sort of discreet Faraday cage eliminate the possibility of external interference?
it would stop it, yes.
With players memorizing computer generated moves, they can play eith computer moved through memorizisation anf combining the moves and combinations.
Whether he cheated or not, I think he played several very vibrant games
Nice joke, underrated.
this is the content we've all been waiting for
That question and look at 3:33 killed me! Nice reference!
At 7:10 whose hand is rubbing Hikaru’s right bicep?
Lex' joke/laugh at 3:30 is really playful and genuine. Simply contagious.
its not that deep
Its breaking the 4th wall. Its why you feel its so genuine, since he looked at the camera.
I think you are in love
@@Y0usri why are yall so miserable on this comment lol who hurt yall damn just get on the internet to make shitty comments
@@Y0usri it isn't deep and the person you're replying to did not imply that it was deep.
Why not just broadcast with a 5 min delay…?
Why can’t you just put broadcast on 10 second delay?
Regarding data and stats... "You can come to any conclusion you want to"
Yes. This is a big big problem, and it is regularly abused. A super easy example, percentages confuse people. Lets say some thing has an avg % chance to give you a life threatening disease. Maybe a carcinogen or something. What if I tell you that taking action X will increase your chances by 50%. That sounds bad, i mean thats a big %. But we dont know the initial chance. Lets say its 2%, now that sounds horrible. 2 -> 52 is a massive jump. But in reality, this is probably not additive, and instead we go from 2% to 3% since they multiply and 2x1.5 is just 3.
This may sound ridiculous spelled out here, but I have seen this trick used, and I've known people who fall for it. Another is using a graph and choosing specifically a portion that looks best, say a 5 year rise and a 1 year plateau, if you only take that 1 year things look inert, if you only show the 5 you hide the recent loss of increases. Another another with graphs, rather than width trickery, height trickery. People don't pay close attention to the scales, what if i want to make competitors look bad, when in reality we are almost identical? I have a graph where say i perform at 95%, the competitor at 93%, maybe another small guy at 91%. Now those graphs look identical when we are 1-100, so lets blow it up 90-100. Now those small changes look huge, it looks like we are 40% better, we're 2 notches above them and they are 3 notches tall!
Stats are hard. In fact recently maybe someone had seen, on reddit they posted a graph of engine correlation % across a ton of games, one hans and one another gm, i forget if they were named haha. But just showing the % on the horizontal, you end up with similar looking curves. The entire point of them posting with the graphs initially anonymous was to claim that specific data is not useful, as both have what appears to just be a standard distribution. But, if you know what the data actually says, you know what to look for. It doesn't matter that they both have lots and lots of games in the 60-70% range, what matters is that one has almost no 90%+ games, and at the same time almost no very low % games either. The second graph had a flatter curve, way more 90s and 100s, and also way more super low scores. Immediately it was obvious to me which was more consistent, and i pegged the less consistent as hans. That was correct. The problem is that the center looks big and interesting and distracts from the important data on the edges. The idea is entirely looking at those pieces outside the average, because everyone is going to have a lot in the average, so the highs and lows are the important part.
I can't tell if this counts as a rant lmao, it's just really nerve wracking knowing how beneficial and incredibly powerful data and especially data representation are, and also how easily so many people can be deceived. Its difficult seeing data i know is being represented wrongly, and wondering about what data i dont notice is wrong. It's unfortunate having to be so careful when generating data, knowing that you may have accidentally fooled yourself with the same tricks.
Idk, thats enough text for now haha. Its just something i think about very frequently, and i think its worth it for others to think about it too. Just know to be careful, and at the least always check the obvious. Is a % additive or multiplicative. Check the bounds on graphs to make sure they make sense. Thanks for your time here haha, and good luck out there to any who made it this far
Thanks for your comment :)
Write a book dude.. this is suppose to be comments.
Mucho texto
Thanks for posting your informative Facts, and exposing their nefarious anti Hans witch hunt hit piece that's tainted by the Fact they are massively invested in Magnus and are desperately trying to justify their knee jerk guilty of cheating accusations without presenting any evidence.
They have NO verifiable OTB cheating evidence only opinions based on inconclusive and incomplete evidence which at best is pure guesswork at worst a anti Hans hit piece meant to please their Master Magnus.
you typed all that could've just shown china is 1/6 population therefore you have a 1/6 chance of having a chinese baby as an example of bad stats
While Hikaru has never blatantly said that Hans cheated, he spent a lot of time and airspace talking about it in a way that made it seem that he felt that Hans cheated. There are many ways to show your thoughts and intentions without being so overt. He's playing it more neutral here, but sometimes it felt like (to me) that he was saying Hans cheated without actually saying that Hans cheated. It's an interesting situation and I appreciate this short interview where he made Hikaru maybe look at things a bit more objectively (like the data scientist etc ha ha).
He never said exactly that hans cheated in the game against magnus, most of the time he just said hans was a bit sus and he cheated online. Even magnus never directly say that hans cheated against him as they know saying that will get them in legal trouble.
The videos I saw he didn't say he was cheating over the board but he did say that anybody that didn't cheat couldn't play as good as Hans in the history of the Sport
@@answeris4217 Yeah I saw when he had that woman or someone else with the stats, and Hans was at 100% or whatever it was, whereas everyone else, including Magnus, were not near that. And something does seem dodgy, but it seems like no one can really nail what this is, on either side, which I guess why this keeps us all enthralled in this controversy!
As he said in this video initially the "data" that was being put out was convincing until he learned about how its compiled and where it comes from.
well hans has filed suit against him and magnus and others so he probably caught wind it was going to happen when this interview was conducted
Perhaps an rf meter would be helpful
Has a comparative analysis been done? Control data is needed. Are there other high level younger players with patterns that are statistically correlated to what Hans achieved?
Yes but to a lower degree. Hans being an online cheater is just a fact but it's very difficult to prove any kind of cheating in over the board games.
They did that
Wow, you need a Faraday cage to isolate radio on the playing area?
Why isnt there any interviews from Hans himself?
There were plenty. He did one where he said the infamous "chess speaks for itself". And even one with him and another player going over the moves that he played. Plenty of chess streamers have reacted to these videos you can look them up.
Has anyone thought about the possibility that Niemann somehow found out about the line that Magnus was planning to play? This seems like a much simpler way to cheat, and would explain why he said he studied the line just by luck.
That was the most strange part for me, yet so weird to admit
That would only apply if he did extremely well just in the opening/middle game alone, but he completely demolished Magnus in the endgame, which is the crazy part. Magnus, who is definitely among the best endgame players of all time, got SMASHED by Neimann.. That's the weird part because what line he studied or not had nothing to do with it. Because you can't just prepare a line for the endgame, that's literally impossible.
Hans even lied that he prepared for that specific opening because Magnus played that opening before. The problem is that opening has only been played 1 time in the past 20 years and Magnus didn't play that.
Dubov plays that line regularly. Somebody told Niemann Magnus was going to play it. Hans correctly played the line and it isn't in his opening repertoire either.
People keep saying that Magnus could have handled it better but I haven’t heard anyone suggest how yet…
I could be wrong, yet from what I have seen (Granted, I'm sure isn't as nearly as much as many people in this comment section) it appears that he perhaps said a bit too much, particularly from a legal standpoint, and arguably a moral one too (Without concrete evidence) You could argue that his actions were actually relatively reserved considering the emotional weight of the situation, yet I think his best course of action after quitting, may have been, to of just made his suspicions clear ,behind the scenes, to the highest officials of the tournament, and requested a formal investigation. And when asked why he quit, he should of stated that I cannot speak on the matter, and continued to do so, at least until the investigation was over. And if the investigation did not come up with anything, you could argue, that you just have to accept that the better player in that specific game, won.
That being said, it may have been the case, that Magnus felt, or knew, that a proper investigation would not have happened, or a as rigorous investigation would not have happened, had he have not gone as public with his suspicions, which weren't too forthcoming initially, but he may have felt it was enough to put more pressure on officials to investigate.
Again, I'm not as up to speed as many others I'm sure, so correct me if I'm wrong, I may be getting my timeline mixed up too ha.
@@alexanderbellini2526 yes we’re only speculating about what had ALREADY gone on behind the scenes but from what some people have said it sounds like all of those suspicions had already been communicated and nothing done about them… my read of it is that Magnus didn’t say anything until he got legal advice (his open letter was obviously legally mediated as he only ever said ‘I believe he cheated’, which is his legal right to believe and say, and never the directly accusatory ‘he did cheat’) and I believe he only made that statement because of overwhelming pressure from the chess community to SAY SOMETHING rather than keeping his silence as that was frustrating so many. I still can’t see what he did wrong or could have done better, it was an extremely terse and difficult situation to be in… Magnus said that he has gotten a lot of private support from other top players and I believe him… perhaps it is not possible to make such accusations and not face significant public backlash whether you are right or wrong but to me it seems unfair especially given the apparent consensus on the mistrust of Hans… the crowd is a fickle uncaring beast and will turn on someone it loved only a minute earlier and I don’t like that.
@@alexanderbellini2526 also, Hans has demonstrated absolutely no remorse or indicated in any way that he is responsible for developing such mistrust amongst his colleagues, yet all the enmity from the public seems to be directed at Magnus, who has a stellar record (which seems to count for nothing to people) and has done so much for the chess world. Even though people joke about how Hans cheated, no one seems upset with him and plenty of people defend him whilst Magnus seems to cop all of the ill will… it seems so backwards to me. I can only surmise that people are largely corrupt and so are on the side of the corrupt.
@@chesneytube1 *"it sounds like all of those suspicions had already been communicated and nothing done about them"*
Ye, I did suspect that this possibly may be the case, and if so, I can completely understand his actions, not from just a personal standpoint, but even for the benefit of the chess community as a whole.
*"(his open letter was obviously legally mediated as he only ever said ‘I believe he cheated’, which is his legal right to believe and say, and never the directly accusatory ‘he did cheat’)"*
Ye, it was clearly written with legal advise, and I think you're right, and I do agree *" because of overwhelming pressure from the chess community to SAY SOMETHING"* that this was likely the reason behind it.
I don't know if I missed it, but perhaps, he could of possibly added something along the lines, of, "I have my suspicions, but's that's all they are, I hope Hans did not cheat, and pending a thorough investigation, if it is not found that he cheated, I will of course profusely apologise, and congratulate him on his win, I just feel for the benefit of chess, the investigation is necessary " Or something like that, that may be more legally appropriate, if that sort of statement would indeed be possible to make.
All in all, if it was indeed the case, that he felt that not enough was being done, I don't think he did too much wrong at all really.
I think the problem is, in this online world, a lot of the time, an accusation automatically means guilty in regards to the public perception, so I think now, a lot of other people have started to automatically feel a jolt combativeness, to an accusation without concrete evidence, but from what you have said it sounds like in this specific case, Magnus had good reason to go more public with it, and I think he's almost just caught up in larger social issue in regards to allegations online.
@@alexanderbellini2526 I agree it probably would have been better (especially for him) if his message was more balanced as you say but doing so in the moment is difficult and I don’t think he’s to be blamed for falling short of perfect... I think he was fairly certain that Hans cheated at the time and there was perhaps already an atmosphere of mistrust and paranoia surrounding Hans that influenced Magnus’ words and actions… I actually think that everyone has been extremely reluctant to conclude that Hans cheated over the board (jokes about beads aside) pending concrete evidence which is a good thing… innocent until proven guilty. I just think that Hans should take more responsibility for how his rampant online cheating is the sole cause of this situation… after all, no one else has found them self in such a one. This lawsuit to me seems like a refusal to man up and do that and to keep maintaining his victim status rather than being responsible for the whole hubbub…
How hard can it be to build a big faraday cage? Or just a cage for 2
They should always do the games in a faraday cage and only broadcast with a delay.
We have to keep in mind though that MC probably studied this dude’s last 2 years worth of matches and then concluded what he concluded. And he knows what he’s doing in terms of analyzing chess so…. It’s fishy af when you consider how Nieman “explained” his new found form.
How did he explain it?
@@lhh6627 That for some reason that he can't even remember the reason for, he decided to study the specific variation of the catalan opening that Magnus used that tournament the day before. Even though Magnus had never played that strategy in a tournament before.
He bowed out of the tourney
You don’t need proof for coincidence but you do need proof for foul play.
@@basvanvliet288 fair enough
Putting aside all of the drama, it’s pretty cool to see how the game of chess has helped advance things like AI through engines etc. and now it’s opening all of these philosophical legal questions and rabbit holes.
07:00 Hum, sounds prophetic about the World Championship between Din and Nepo, but change Stockfish for Magnus haha.
I'm very happy that Hikaru is a well known and vocal part of the chess community. He's kinda speaking the truth here. It's hard to know what's true and what's not, and we won't know if it's true that Hans cheated for 6-12 months and see how he continues to play. I agree Hans saying "the chess speaks for itself" was a weird way to respond to cheating, but also, I don't know what I'd say or if I'd be any less pissed off if I played a game against Magnus myself and was accused of cheating because I lasted longer than I should (ha he'd fucking smoke me) but it's very easy to cheat, it's also very hard to have cheated in the past, and possibly improve as a person and a player, and have those accusations come back to haunt you when you straighten up and haven't been cheating. I hope that FIDE can tell us whether or not Hans is just becoming a genius player or if he has been and always will be a cheater when it can benefit him most
I really hope he didn’t cheat. Idk why, but I like the kid.
Hikaru is trying to conceal the fact he outright accused hans, he is acting now, because he knows hans is innocent
@@jwaxmcgeeg9706 judging by the fact that he straight up stopped playing matches and declined major tournament invitations, he looks a lot more suspicious.
the "speaks for itself" quote was not in response to accusations of cheating. It was to an interviewer who asked how it felt to beat Magnus after performing poorly the day before, the first time he beat him in a tournament, which was NOT the one that Magnus withdrew from. It was kind of a bizarre reaction to having the game of a lifetime.
Hans is sueing Hikaru for defamation but hikaru seems pretty fair here. Just explaining the situation and what not insinuating anything at all. Even if he said anything against Hans on his streamings before doing this podcast, he seems to gave changed his "mind"/"approach" to the whole scandal and is giving Hans the benifit of the doubt.
maybe he became fair after being sued?
@@noobinthefield9207 this is obviously correct
do we have an update
they should have signal jammers ,so no signal can even reach a player. Therefore stopping most forms of cheating
FCC says NO
They should play deep in a mine, or underwater. Robust radiation shielding. Wired communication to the outside world. Probably no live audience.
That would be sick
In a submarine at the bottom of the Mariana trench
It's called a Faraday Cage, folks
Elon should hold the matches on mars..
It’s been a year, did he cheat
It’s impossible to say. Unless you have a Time Machine and an MRI machine
Dang, I’ve only got one of those. I’m not a Doc, so I don’t have access to an MRI machine.
It's impossible to tell. What we can tell is he suddenly started making AI-like machine moves and has continued doing it. They have never checked his clothing or had chess in Faraday cages.
You don’t even need the moves, you just need the signal that you are better or worse. That’s all they need at that level. A simple 1-2-3 signal… better worse equal…. They can see all potential moves.
If he is a fast learning and fast progressing-developing 2650 at least who will eventually get to 2800, he can have spme days of fitness and performance and preparation and drive to have some 2750-2800 games right now which would allow a win over an unmotivated bad day Magnus, Magnus who has said that the past 2 - 3 years has had periods of being unmotivated.
Fischer was completely unmotivated by 29.
So it is not that strange, even though Magnus has much greater motivation, to have unmotivated periods at 30-32 after he has beaten everyone for a decade.
The big fear is that chess becomes the new tour de france where normal people cannot compete only the once who are the best at avoiding getting caught
*ones Thing is that when people cheat in sports like cycling, baseball, etc. they still have to be able to perform a skill. Chess is purely a decision based game so when someone uses an engine they've completely removed themselves from the game. If you grabbed a random 25 year old man and juice them to the gills they won't be able to crush 98mph fastballs like Bonds or cycle like Armstrong. You can grab someone of any age, sex, or ability and they would crush Magnus with stockfish.
Ha ha. Nice cross over. I can appreciate that Lance’s final act was to admit it all and blow up the Tour that hated him so much.
Anything that requires competition will always have an element of cheating, especially the higher the stakes are, like in professional settings.
Where there's a will, there's a way. People always figure something out because appearing to be the best at something, along with the money, is more important than actually being the best.
That's the world we live in.
@@88mphDrBrown lol you sound mad as fuck
@@88mphDrBrown But anyone other than a GM would be exposed in a one minute conversation about their moves in a game in which they cheated.
7:15 totally understandable, but an odd move made to take you off guard could highly be purposeful. This isn't just a game of making good moves, I believe there still is room for bizarre creativity and bamboozling the opponent psychologically.
It's a mental sport but playing your advantage is part of the game they play.
The same advantage Magnus has It's an intimidation factor
In Hans vs Magnus case it wasn't one odd move, it was many consecutive moves matching with best option suggested by engine, in situations with many possible good moves.
@@AG-ig8uf Hans 2700...that isn't strange at all and Magnus well he played the worst game he played in 10 years
@@answeris4217
His inability to explain his thinking afterwards makes it pretty sus, no?
Magnus tried opening with an unknown move for him and Hans still played it perfectly. It looks weird. That's what Hikaru is talking about. Assume you were magnus and thought hans was cheating so you do an unknown opening to "test" it and he inevitably plays as perfectly as you suspected. Now, imagine you did that gambit and the other guy isn't a cheater, you are throwing away % to test something needlessly. If both players KNOW each is on the up and up those types of gambits wouldn't be necessary and a more "honest" game of chess would play naturally.
The flipside is people like magnus know others play against them differently already due to the mythos and he openly admits to taking advantage of that. Magnus doesn't have cheating accusations follow him though.
Maybe all future world championships should be held in a Faraday cage (i.e. an enclosure used to block electromagnetic fields). Or maybe an extension of chess boxing could be a MMA style cage match.
You should do an interview with Hans
its been 6-12 months now. Any updates?
Hans is now 2692, which is above the level that Hikaru said he would be playing if he was not cheating (1:20)
He beat Hikaru last week 🤣🤣🤣
There's still confusion. He's still improving but it would seem he's just doing it by pure ability without being able to explain it
The lawsuit speaks for itself
Lmfao
The counter lawsuit they're going to launch is going to destroy what's left of the kid.
@@kikoredog This interview hurts Hikaru imo, "you can come to any conclusion you want to" in otherwards there is no hard evidence for over the board cheating atm. Especially when you consider what he has said / implied prior about the issue. So in other words Hikaru speculating was enough damage.
@@peterhorton9063 I mean hasn't he played many perfect games in online chess which should be impossible
@@davidcolorado1968 Its relative to your opponents game. The game he beat Magnus was literally one of magnus's worst games ever.
Great clip
Have major chess tournaments in Casino level security maybe even on a Casino floor.
Man I hope Hans keeps doing well over board and he comes on this podcast cause it'd be hilarious.
This comment didn't age well. He's consistently losing to 2500 rated players. 😂
@@susbedo9258 Dudes an enigma, he will dominate GMs 1 tourney, and than lose 4 games in a row in another 😅
@@jw7665 I guess anal beads are tough to wear for every single tournament.
That's a really long way of saying maybe
i will not continue watching this video now, i'll just watch it in the court stream.
Hasn't the 15 minutes delay measure for live broadcast been implemented yet? I really don't see the difference for the spectators.. you shouldn't enjoy less a broadcast if its 15 minutes late. The only time I worried about delayed broadcast was when I was living in an appartment, watching a football game on the internet and would hear the neighbours yell for a goal they would see before me. Probably not gonna happen for a chess game ;p.
Magness suspected cheating and played a rare opening line. Hans played perfect for 25 moves lol.
I would be more inclined to think that Hans cheated by spying Magnus' opening preparation instead of using an engine. He found out what opening Magnus was doing memorized it better than him and then won by simply having a good day with Magnus having a bad one
@@otto_jk if hans an magnus played 100 end games random i would bet anyone that hans wouldn't have a prayer of winning (not drawing) even 3. I bet Magnus at 97 % . Period. For Hans to have outplayed the greatest end game strategist in the history of chess with 25 perfect moves an move orders is at the very least extremely suspect. Lets get real here.
@@otto_jkhow on earth would he find this out.
@@maxiebojangles5823 pragg has also played 45 best moves tho would you call him a cheater too?
*makes 30 videos suggesting Hans cheated
"I haven't decided yet."
"Hans Neimann is Brilliant" -title of a video posted by GMHikaru 2 days ago
Oh and there's no question he did cheat online, but what's not clear is over the board. Your comment is deceptive and the 19 people who thumbed your comment up are ignorant.
@@apocalypseap How is my comment deceptive? He made many videos alluding that Hans cheated OTB, including the statistics video referenced in the clip that Hikaru claims he no longer finds to be compelling evidence.
Lmaoooooooo
@@RandyLeftHandy you mean the video where he says a million times "i am not a data scientist" so people take the statistics with a grain of salt?
@@youareliedtobythemedia Yeah it was the same video where he showed that shit data to his entire audience. You can't have it both ways.
At first I wasnt sure if Hans cheated, but then I asked dave hester from storage wars and now I know for a fact.
“YUUUUUP”
Its the buzzer like astros
Data science speaks for itself.
so i guess you’re a “data scientist” 🤣 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️ the whole data argument is extremely fickle & weak, for starters “your” opponent plays an important role on “your” performance, also the the correlation thing needs to stop at some point, MANY of those “100” % correlation games had MANY blunders by hans himself, which begs the question, how can you get a 100% correlation if you’re making blunders?!!!this whole cheating(without ANY KIND of proof) nonsense is going to be a double edge sword, on one side you’ll have more eyes/attention on the chess world but you’ll also get a never ending story of accusations left & right & once you’ve opened that door is going to be almost impossible to close it 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
Perhaps those weren't actually blunders, but they only appear to be.
In other words, if the move is what a top level chess engine would do then it's pretty much not a blunder.
@@agwiz2777 you assume he thinks Hans cheated. Why do you assume that…
@@danieljimenez1989 The only thing that matters is to show evidence of him using a chess engine in a otb match and how he did it in front of spectators and the event organizers.
In other words speculation pretty much means nothing and the engine moves mean nothing, show the communication between him and an engine during the match, nothing else matters.
@@danieljimenez1989 Thats a good counter argument but the problem is, thats not exactly how it works, those games were “re-examined” with other engines & thats how people discovered the blunders, in fact there wasn’t a 100% correlation in any of those games…
When I played and studied a lot of chess. My improvement was extremely linear with a few plateaus. So it would seem highly suspicious if someone makes a big leap in ranking during a short period of time. The only game I've played with an even more linear rate of improvement was Starcraft 2. Security is always a big problem. Since even if there is perfect security. You can simply pay the guy in charge of security to help you cheat or crack/work around the security system itself. In online gaming it's always been a race lost by the gaming companies.
But you are a nobody. We are talking about talented people here.
We should base this on your sample size of 1?
In my vague anecdotal . . . (that's where sensible people stopped reading)
kamsky gained 300 points in 9 months improvement is rarely linear thats nonsense Fisher gained about 600 to 700 points in a couple of years
I recently made a huge leap.. was 200 rating.. after about 2 years.. i am now a 300
It’s been 12 months, how has Hans been doing?
Spent an entire minute saying what other people think, only for him to finally say he’s undecided
What does the anticheat checkpoint do? Check for electronic signals? If so you would have to rescan everyone after going to the bathroom for example where they can turn an offline bead online etc. And stripsearch everyone.
Its just metal detectors, its easy to get around. Its why its SO hard to catch people cheating if they do it properly knowing what the methods used to catch cheating is.
And pretty much EVERY pro-player know all of the things that are used to "catch" cheaters in chess.
There is literally NO possible way to prevent cheating entirely. And thats definetly what destroys this game in a way. Computer science changes the world.
I think its kinda silly to be like there is no way that someone could just come along and beat magnus like that. People probably thought the same thing about past champions. Records are meant to be broken eventually. Why even have any hope at all that anyone would become better than magnus or equally at the very least. It may be just that time.
Yeah that’s possible but Hans clearly isn’t that guy. He isn’t even sniffing the Candidate’s, let alone winning it, let alone becoming champion
you can't feel good and be at peace with your own soul if you cheat - having integrity and being truthful (always as much as you can) is a way toward happiness...
You can if it gets you the bag and you don’t give a shit about chess
There are people that doesnt care about those things. Sociopaths, psychopats, etc. They dont give a shit, they dont feel bad knowing that everyone knows they cheat and just cant prove it. Niemann is one of those people.
if you give hans the benifit of the doubt he might have changed, imo
it's easy - play the next games in a farady cage - there won't be any transmissions in or out. Just skill
Evil's most powerful tool is people thinking evil can't possibly exist.
Hans is an evil genius, and that's very cool and not evil.
Here to bookmark and save this video for the defense for the lawsuit Hans just filed 🤓, and the counter suit
counter suit? Hikaru is in for a really tough time!
Hicky gonna lose everything.
@@noomade not really. Hans Niemann is just the next Amber Heard.
@@elitist3447 Amber Heard was the defendant...
@@noomade yes she was and is completely irrelevant to the point, his suit was meant to attack her and regain all he lost after she attacked him first. In the end she is the cheating, lying psychopath she always was.
I think Chess is headed towards secluded rooms and nude shakedowns. Not exaggerating. Any computer help in chess is the worst cheating in sports/gaming.
TSA full body scanner would resolve any issues. No need for butt probes.
Worst cheating in sports? What about PEDs in combat sports ?Xd
@@StuttgartWriter Took the words out of my mouth sir.
@@StuttgartWriter The thing about combat sports is the people know head trauma is a serious risk already, PEDs definitely add to that...but they don't literally guarantee victory, like cheating in chess.
@@d0ublestr0ker0ll You play chess, you dont play combat sports.
Everybody is backtracking now that he is suing
I don't know why super high level chess tournaments aren't played inside a faraday cage, then you don't have to worry about any electronic signals/devices being smuggled in.
How much bigger of a scandal can you get. Hans literally tried to block World Champion Magnus on his undefeated streak to make ELO Rating World History for his own reputation. Unbelievable foul play
hans is just better than magnus. cry about it fangirl.
@@out_of_orbit1968 keep caping up for a cheater. Weirdo 😂
@@out_of_orbit1968 even Hans doesn't think so
Players about to be walking through a ProVision on the way to their matches, TSA style
Integrity is the word which is a guideline to judge a person. If someone does not have this character quelity chances are that these persons will be tempted to cheat when a solid oportunity i s offered. When serious money is involved such cheat will increase...the need to be recognised, respected or craving for attention is an other motivation to cheat.
If Lex had to play chess naked, would he still wear a tie?
We finally get the answer we’ve been all waiting for. 3:28 Hikaru is not a data scientist. Lol
Is this a meme
And Lex's grin at the camera right after
@@briscoelang2436 yup
Simply delaying the live feed by 1 minute would solve this no? And I mean, worst case, you make the chess area a Faraday cage.
Watching 8 months later ... I wonder if he has an idea now?
It could well be that Hans is able to play above his rating at times, and legitimately beat Magnus, but because of his past online cheating Magnus automatically believed he cheated.
I know lots of chess players who occasionally play really well, but mostly don't.
We have to assume innocence until PROVEN guilty
check out his post game interviews too hes pretty sussy there
you have to realize magnus studied all his games before playing him. he tried to figure out his style and then got completely surprised when they played because he didn't play like he was supposed to.
Nah, Preponderance of the evidence
By the way... There is 'proof' that people accused him of cheating...
I don't play at a competitive level, far from it, those that do need protection, I do not want to say bad things about somebody else but my opinion is that the people that know, know x
All friends now apparently
We should have IM’s people with eval bar play against GM’s without eval bar to check it out how big the difference is haha.
I think this is final chess scandal before the end. Chess engines are so powerful now, that the game will essentially become broken.
Well, we still watch footraces even though we invented machines that move much faster
@@dash_r_media Footraces are a physical sport. Chess is just a game where the machine literally can do all the work FOR the player. Machines cannot do the work FOR the athletes.
As a chess enthusiast and admirer, I'm already disgusted with this. If the issue is not addressed with vigilance, what will happen, is that all the sponsors will run away from chess shows and tournaments, and will refuse to be involved in scandals that will finally smudge their names. The issue is not just about cheating: it is about cheating in chess on very high levels, where there is MORE MONEY involved, and cheating designed in order to get there, where there is MORE MONEY. If it persists and proven suspects were not kicked out for good, then the sponsorships of tournaments become nothing else but money laundering schemes in rigged public shows. What this teaches the next generation of players? What are "real achievements"? Cheated games are worthless. This means certain death to the chess sport, and a total downfall of the game.
Money corrupts everything.
I think I have an idea of how he could have done it through practice. Maybe he made the move he thought his opponent would make, then he would use the engine to see how it reacted. Then he memorized a few variations and in the match he repeated it to copy the engine? Maybe he is studying unnatural computer generated sequences instead of using natural judgement and evaluation?
@Sexy Ἀλκιβιάδης do they have metal detectors?