Lagrange Point Space Settlement
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2024
- Lagrange Points are the rare oases, stationary islands in space. As a result, they are invaluable real estate where we can build vast space habitats.
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Credits:
Lagrange Point Space Settlement
Episode 431; January 25, 2024
Produced, Written & Narrated by: Isaac Arthur
Editors:
Anne Kopperud
Briana Brownell
Graphics:
Bryan Versteeg
Jarred Eagley
YD Visual
Sergio Botero
Udo Schroeter
Music Courtesy of Steve Cardon - Наука та технологія
An ideal place for picking O'Neil Cylinders to drop on the Earth Federation.
this post was Presented by the Principality of Zeon XD
Sieg zeon
this post was fact-checked by real spacenoid patriots
Reminds me of that one mission in m1 were an astroid is going to drop on a colony.
I was told back in the ‘70s that L5 was considered ever so slightly moe desirable than L4 because it imparted a tiny bonus to any spacecraft launched from there heading to Mars or the Asteroids, whereas, owing to relative velocities or whatever, launching from L4 imparted a very slight disadvantage. No idea if that’s true or not, I’ve long ago learned not to trust things I read in Future magazine or Starlog, but that was the closest to an explanation as I ever got.
Would it be the approach of the earth's mass affecting objects as they move out?
@@robertbyerlay5040 I think, and I have to stress that I am just guessing about things I don’t really understand, but I think that it had to deal with the moon moving clockwise, And because it trailed the moon, L5 gave you more opportunity to be flung out into space than L4 did. If that’s true, and I suspect that it is not, then, the same logic might have meant that L4 better for visiting Venus and mercury. But I am 99% sure that I am wrong about this.
@@mahatmarandy5977 - Having recently looked around the WWW a bit and noted the tenor of modern discourse on the whole, I am wondering if I just read the most humble piece of speculation posted on the internet. Of course one might have anticipated it’d be right here, in the comments section of an SFIA video.
@@ColdHawk wow, I have absolutely no idea what to say to that, other than ‘thank you.’
5 was, at least back in the 70s, just considered a much cooler number than 4.
I love coming home from a horrible days work and finding a new SFIA episode to make me chill out for a while. Cheers Isaac 🍻
We need more Lagrange Point scifi! It's so interesting to think how these places could work in society!
There was a LOT of it written in the 1970s-80s, so much so that "O'Neill" or "Lagrangia" became for the period from about 1977-1987 what "Luna City" was for 1955-1970.
But yeah, let's get back on it.
@@EdT.-xt6yv Like it or not, national boundaries are essential to striving, functioning and free nations, civilizations and societies.
Turns out the alternative to national boundaries is not some global peaceful utopia where everybody's citizens of the world, but rather a despotic dystopian hell where one factor, one power or one ideology managed to conquer, erode or destroy all other borders and place everyone under its boot. And naturally, such a factor will do ANYTHING to maintain its power.
And countless factors, agents, identities and ideologies are striving right now and all the time to reach that exact state. That's not some paranoid delusion, this is the human reality.
@@etsequentia6765 Not disagreeing, just giving counter-point. Could there be some representative democracy for the entire world, where different factions vied for votes, and was more integrated than what the UN is now (which is a joke)? The US is a conglomeration of states, which have very different policies from each other. Does it only persist because there are other nations with very different political structures? Would it become authoritarian if there weren't competition?
Alliance-Union series by C. J. Cherryh's got some
SEIG ZION
-casually colony drops in australia
Happy Arthursday Fellow Viewer and Subscribers 🎉
Frasier Cains gonna love this one
The Lagrange Triangle is a great concept! Can't wait to see that get used in fiction, and perhaps even in reality. :)
Re: 16:44 - In Heppenheimer's "Colonies in Space" there was an explanation for the preference of L5 over L4 (Or the reverse, L4/L5), which had to do with being easier to get to (needed less fuel) due to the rotation of the system. So L5 would be ideal for space colonies, while L4 would be reserved for orbital power collectors, which would not need to be visited as often.
If i somehow got my hands on an SFIA badge or clip i would wear it no hesitation because Issac is undisputably the thing that revived my interest in outer space
There's also the "Venus Equilateral" stories by George O Smith (1940's) where the namesake station was a manned communications relay between Earth and Venus for use when the Sun was in the way of the direct link. Wikipedia says it was three miles long and one mile in diameter, spinning to provide spin gravity. It was at Venus's L4 point.
This episode is what I would call an instant Arthur classic. Solid science!!!!
Happy Thursday to all my fellow Arthurians
Transhuman Space has a good portrayal of Lagrange Point development
Always excited to see new ideas or concepts!! Great content
More to come!
yet you forget. there is nothing new under the sun.
I have a lot of ideas for illustrations and science fiction comics, and your videos provide a lot of scientific basis that expands possibilities that I previously thought were exaggerated or impossible, and fuel to improve the ideas I already had. Thank you Isaac Arthur. I'm sure that a lot of science fiction material in books, games, comics, cinema and concept art will be greatly influenced by your excellent content, due to the new generations of artists and, why not, scientists who are young today and watch your channel. Thank you for expanding our mental horizons with quality content.
Imagine dropping a habitat from the Lagrange point as a weapon.
What do you mean dropping? You can't drop something that won't accelerate due to gravity
That’s kinda like throwing an apartment complex at a nation
Zeon did nothing wrong
@@markallen6433you can of you put a rocket engine on ot
@@ZontarDow SecCom did nothing wrong too
Excellent job explaining the topic 👍
So if we had "Sentinal" stations (manned or unmanned) to surveil our solar system (for aliens or asteroides, etc), would L2-L5 be the best locations and would that be enough? How about an entire video on monitoring and protecting our solar system?
What are you monitoring for, and what quality of sensors are you using? A single probe at the Mercury - Sol L2 would be able to look outward and sweep the entire system every 88 days.
@@muninrob Back when Mercury always kept one face to the Sun, its Nightside was the coldest place in the Solar System. Mercury's L2 is still one of the coldest and darkest.
Maybe the L2 of Mercury and an array of six or twelve in the Asteroid Belt, out far enough to be shut of the radio noise from Earth and Earth's densely populated Hill Sphere.
@@arcadiaberger9204 At the Mercury L2, you can let Mercury's orbital speed "sweep" your sensors (so you can be more passive, allowing a longer service life), and your transmissions home will be hidden from casual observers by the star's emissions.
Another wonderful SFIA video to brighten my Thursday morning.
Informative as always.
Excellent episode, as usual.
Do we have any examples yet of naturally occurring moons with their own moons?
possibly Kepler-1625b I, its not fully confirmed though.
@@isaacarthurSFIA so how much to book the first flight out? I could use a vacation, and kepler-1625b sounds lovely this time of year
@@randallkoskubar2303 NOT SURE IF MY OLD BRAIN CAN TOLERATE FUSION ENGINE TIME TRAVEL,,,
I've been waiting for this episode!
My mother is quick to point out that " you only get one brother" in admonishment of our on again off again relationship. Similarly, as a species, we only get 5 Lagrangian Points so we shouldn't squander them.
I have a use for earthoon L3 you can put one of the sub nodes of an interferometer telescope at L and the other at L2 you can even incorporate L4 & L5 in the array to gain resolution but not effective aperture size.
Lagrange Diamond is PURE GOLD!!! Right up there with Orbital rings! OH if mankind could only get its head out of it's blank.
Looks like we are already dead in the HYPER BLANK MENTALITY?
I love this! Because of this channel my colony worlds will have planet swarms and Super-McKendree cylinders in at least the L4 & L5 points! We will thrive, large families with no worries of overpopulation!
Inbreeding and subsistence farming in an orbital prison constantly threatend by tech fails, meteroids and hard radiation and zero g health effects. Large families of idiot farmers? The attrition rate will be huge.
and nobody's dog will leave presents on our lawns!!!
@tirlonburke9875 I guess there are small UGVs for that?
hey bro,you writing some story?
@kashutosh9132 No, just the worlds in my imagination and hopes for the future.
I was juat thinking of this topic couple days ago,this is gonna be good! Synchronicity 😂
Me n the boys chilling at L3
"Home, home on Lagrange,
Where the space debris always collects,
We possess, so it seems, two of Man's greatest dreams:
Solar power and zero-gee se*"
"We eat algae pie,
Our vacuum is high,
Our ball bearings are perfectly round,
The horizon is curved,
The warheads are MIRV'd,
And the kilogram weighs half a pound"
@@StarlightSocialist "If we run out of space for our burgeoning race
No more Lebensraum left for the mensch
When we're ready to start
We can take Mars apart
If we just find a big enough wrench"
"Rumor spreadin' 'round
In that Texas town
About that shack
outside La Grange
And you know what I'm talkin' about
Just let me know
If you wanna go
To that home out on the range
They got a lot of nice girls."
I'm sick of this place,
It's just mcdonald's in space
So I'll see you next week at L4.
@@StarlightSocialist A fellow Spesman? Excelent.
Every few videos I get a little bit more Isaac Arthur lore and it's always pleasantly surprising. 😂
Love the intro music
Right on poiny for bedtime!
I wonder if there is somewhere in orbit that we could place something to give the Earth's polar region a day/night cycle in the summer, reducing the summertime ice melt. Maybe a giant radiometer like structure.
The show Lexx/ Tales from A Parellel Universe, had 2 planets orbiting each other in the L-3 counter earth lagrange point. Which were Heaven and Hell, with the names Water and Fire. The show was much more comedic in nature, but Tim Curry plaed the devil if I recall correctly.
Literally have always wondered about this lol
I was NOT expecting to hear the Gor series mentioned on SFIA of all places! 😅
I love the tone Isaac used too, felt like it meant if you know, you know.😂
Unironically this is popping up around talks of what to do with the ISS and I propose moving it to a Lagrange orbit as a refueling station.
I wonder how large the population might grow if it went both down AND out? Still living on the surface, but also burrowing and settling inside it like in the Spaceship Earth episode, AND building out into lagrange point settlements from this episode. It seems like it would be incredibly massive, and would certainly stretch the concept of living "On Earth."
I like the positivity, it's just a matter of time before this is reality 🙂
I loved the Gor series
There will be devastating wars in the future over those Ls.
I just want to comment that NIR is a crucial part of the radiation spectrum, both for people and even more so for plants. If you filter out NIR, they will grow much slower.
Mars L1 magnetic shield makes more sense than surface level shielding. Not sure how much it would help the planet retain atmosphere, but keeping out those cosmic rays would stop perclorate production so that our abatement processes aren't in vain.
I wish we could start building these settlements and start exploring more space.
Venus equilateral series of stories was really good
The counter Earth position sounds like a good point to three D print a back up Planet
oh so that's what a lagrange point is.
was kinda confised cause in french it means the barn point and I always imagined it meant it's a space in space where you store stuff.
guess I wasn't that far.
Side note: Krypton orbited Rao, which was a star with a different emission spectrum. That Sol emits a different wavelength of light than Rao is part of the reason for Kal-El's powers.
15:05 I did smile when I saw Godzilla the monster and two cars with the Godzilla engine. 😆
Would have liked to have seen Robert Duncan-Enzmann included in the Advanced Spaceship Drive Compendium. The Enzmann Echolance was conceived in the 1970's and was suppressed by the US government for security reasons
It really needs its own episode! You can read about it now in the book "Enzmann Echolance Reach for the Stars"
Fascinating book. I have no affiliation, just a love for space exploration.
Hope we could get a part that would explain how much of solar sail or panels at L-point we would need to stop Earth getting warmer.
L3 would be the perfect parkingspot for Venus, well atleast after we got her weight at exactly ours
I'm hoping someone can help me remember a book series I read years ago. The general premise was a young man who lived with his mom and her abusive bf if memory serves correctly. He finds out multiple neighbors in his cul de sac are either aliens or time travelers or something of that nature. He joins them in some sort of fight they are having with another group. I only ask here because we are a community of sci fi fans lol
I'm not familiar with this story, but it sounds appealing.
I like stories which have to do with dysfunctional families and relationships in SF settings - if for no other reason than to remind us that a dysfunctional relationship can exist anywhere, at any time.
Edit: You might want to try posting a comment on a recent Rebecca Watson video about dysfunctional relationships and the alleged "Five Love Languages".
These are popular in the various gundam series
They're pretty popular in any Scifi that has more than vaguely heard of orbital mechanics.
🎶With my face hidden by this star🎵
🎵I owe my victory to Lagrange🎶
🎶Baby Stop The Time🎵
🎵Baby Stop The Time🎶
As is my practice I watched this on Nebula and came here to comment because there's no comment section on Nebula. As usual, I found it over there by a circuitous path. In this case, I couldn't find this one but did find the one that's up there but not here yet. No spoiler! Anyone who wants to see what comes next should join Nebula. The friendly CS rep informed me that they are working on more robust search features, so that problem should go away soon. Nebula has a "Next" button though, and this one was next.
Speaking of L5, I was a member of the L5 Society back when it existed. I do not remember why they called it L5 as opposed to L4 or anything else, but there was an article about it. The reason was probably not very convincing and likely they preferred it because someone thought it sounded better.
I'll wait for the next one to come out here to comment on it.
dude, as a sci-fi nerd, I love your vids! but for the life me, I struggle to understand a word you say, without the subtitles!
I was jus thinking about this the other day weird
The Topopolis, also know as "The Galaxy's Largest Bed Spring"...
So, how'd you end uo here at L3?
"I said I couldn't stand being on the same side of the Sun as them."
"And?"
"They said it could be arranged."
Do we currently have the technology to get humans to a Lagrange point - specifically L1 and L2 - and back?
Absolutely. That's where JWST is at.
had it for a long time now
We have the technology but lack the proper industry, infrastructure, and humqn spaceflight experience.
We would need operational second generation super-heavy lift vehicles now - to life the very heavily shielded space vehicles we would need to use) - or we would need to be able to build or at least assemble such a vehicle in orbit now. On top of that, such a mission would be the longest non-orbital manned space mission ever by a huge margin. We just don't have experience with those sorts of mission, even if we had the ability to put the mission on right now.
So, yes, we have the technology. But we do not have the capacity, and likely won't for a few decades.
@@bkbland1626 Yes but JWST isn't human and we don't currently plan to bring it back. :) I didn't know if we could safely do it with people, which is a lot more complicated
Imagine a scyfy movie or series dealing with just the full industrialization and colonization of earth and the moon as well as the L pts and CIS lunar areas.
We need artificial magnetosphere are Mars le grange points to protect mars from radiation
Another way to look at the Lagrange Points is to look at the gravitational potential energy gradients in 3-d space. The L4 and L5 points are fundamentally stable and the L1, L2, and L3 points are fundamentally unstable because of the gradients in gravitational potential energy. All directions have local minima of gravitational potential energy at L4 and L5, so any perturbation away from the actual L4 and L5 points will result in a returning force on the displaced body. At L1, L2, and L3, there is a local flat spot in all directions, but in at least one direction, this is a local maximum of gravitational energy, so a perturbation will, in general, result in a displacing force, rather than a returning force,, pushing a displaced body further away.
Interferometers for different types of telescopes would make a vast difference in science. There 60 Deg offsets would have gravity wave detection more accurate.
Looking at the diagram at 18:34 it looks like any object at _precisely_ E-M L5 would accelerate along the gradient (perpendicular to the contour lines), coast through L1 _(exactly)_ and run up the contours to E-M L4... and go back again. Possibly forever. Is this the case?
I went to the NSS website when you announced your big news, but I was confused at seeing the name Isaac Arthur. I thought that was a pseudonym, so I expected to see a different name :D
You should get a cover of the ZZ Top song La Grange with some "modded" lyrics that fit!!!!
I recall reading "Pale Blue Dot " by Carl Sagan. He mentioned hollowing out asteroids for habits.
_SPACE_ _COLONIZATION_ _INTENSIFIES_
Babe get up it's Arthursday
I was kind of frustrated about this one, because I can look up true and well-understood information on what Lagrange orbits ARE and the physics affecting them virtually anywhere. I'm far more interested in the consequences of those orbits on RESIDENTS and their likely local infrastructure and requirements etc.
If it's about settlements, I'd rather hear interesting, well-grounded speculation about what's interesting about the settlers and cities than things I already know about the orbits they're proposed to be in.
A few suggestions: consider the unique or interesting things L4/L5 residents would experience or have to watch out for or be able to take advantage of. Like the logistics, energy requirements, and safety concerns of maneuvering large masses (like asteroids) into or out of these orbits and converting them into habitats? Momentum requirements for station keeping, as reflected in a "momentum exchange market" for launching ships? Or what the consequences of local infrastructure on people's lives would be? Or arrangements that would allow them to meet practical concerns like collectors and agriculture dependent on sunlight toward the sun, heat dispersal on the shadowed side, and simultaneously having stable positions for the obligatory communications infrastructure facing Earth and the Moon? How about the consequences of special considerations for docking, launching, and cargo movement and their relationship to settlements on Near-Earth (roughly, Apollo, Aten, Amor, and Apohele groups) asteroids? How about their relationship to potential Aldrin cyclers making them a counterintuitive halfway point for journeys between Mars and Jupiter? Actually between ALL the inner planets, and the effect such exotic trade could have on their culture?
All this is in addition to what's interesting or unique about people and their cultures on asteroid settlements or habitats in general.
What keeps L4 and L5 from growing additional planets from dust and debri falling together towards them, like the space equivalent of garbage patches on ocean gyres?
So this is what the ZZ Top song was about?
Invaluable real estate, yes. Probably the source of the first war in space. Everyone will want ownership.
What about pushing metallic core remnant asteroids to L points, drones mine them out, and the result becomes the stations?
I think we need a small space station at L1 for a long term study of cosmic radiation. We don't think it's a big problem, but we just don't know.
It would Las make a convenient stop-off point on the way to the Moon.
I hope when we start sending probes to other solar systems we fly by Lagrange points to look for alien technology.
Does the distance of Proxima Centauri b's L1 work for protecting the planet from the star's activity?
First rule of interstellar real estate, location, location, location.
A proposed solution to save Terra from the sun increasing brightness has been to place a massive F off asteroid in the L2 Lagrange Point and let its gravity slowly pull earth away from the sun.
It's an interesting Idea. Although considering we'll also be during a fair bit of starlifting along with all the other star life extension technologies we'll implement over the next few billion years. It may become a rather redundant Idea.
Perhaps L1 stations could earn money as a "utilities provider" by deflecting solar wind radiation away with magnets or electromagnets for planets lacking magnetospheres, and by using shades and mirrors to block or concentrate solar light for weather manipulation or terraforming. Although you might have a situation where they close all the shades and block the sun because a planet didn't pay their sun bill.
The Earth -Sun L2 point does not shield JWST from the sun's glare or noise. Do you think it sits in Earth's shadow or something?
No I tihnk it orbits the L2, and spends only part of its time in that shadow in order and in large part to stay cool, but I tihnk you might want to look this up since you obviously don't trust me
so why aren't we sending a cubesat to monitor every NEO? Is it budget?
Good episode, nice one.
Can I request an episode please? I would love to see an episode on ASTROGATION. Imagine we had a spaceship capable of travelling at an average of 10% of lightspeed. It will accelerate at 1G until it gets to that speed, then turn the engines off and coast along at that speed until it reaches the half-way point, at which time it will flip over. I will then continue to coast along (still 0G on the ship as no active propulsion at that time,) until it reaches a point where it will turn the engines on, decelerating at 1G in such a way that it's speed is down to normal intra-solar-system speeds by the time it reaches the target system's Oort cloud or Kuyper belt equivalent. I think that choosing exactly which direction to point your ship to start with might be very complex, to allow for the fact you're aiming not at the star, but at where the star will be by the time your ship arrives. For example, let's say you're going to Ross 128, 11 light years away (because it has a roughly Earth-sized planet in its Goldilocks zone.) Your colonists are either living generations of life inside your ship for the 110 year journey, or they're in stasis or hibernation or something, (perhaps they might be awake during the times the ship is under acceleration or deceleration, but in hibernation for the majority of the time when the ship is coasting along and there's 0 gee on the ship, for comfort's sake?) Your crew also, except they come out of hibernation at crucial points along the journey to keep an eye on things. The computer mostly steers and makes course corrections and so forth. But either people, or the computer, are going to have to be very smart to work out exactly what direction to point the ship in (a few degrees in the direction back from where the star is processing?) and then, during the journey, it'll have to make constant observations and slight course corrections, based on a variety of factors. I can't find a single video on the whole of UA-cam that really covers this, (other than with respect to getting around inside universe simulation games, which I'm not interested in.)
In short, I'd love to see a video on astrogation. I've tried researching it myself, and am finding it very difficult. Some internet materials are interesting, but not easy to get into, and no-one answers any emails or requests for information I've sent them. But I believe you and your team have the smarts (and clout) to research this successfully, and I'd be super interested to see how it's done, how the equation changes based on a variety of factors, like the speed you take, the type of spaceship you're in, the obstacles between you and your destination (dust-clouds, other systems, other star systems...) how you make observations while you're moving at relativistic speeds, how you make course corrections, sometimes at huge speeds (if you have a forcefield in front of your ship to prevent damage to it from impacts with specks of dust hitting you at huge speeds, I suppose you'll have to extend that force field to one side a bit as you angle your course a bit? Or...?) At what point near the destination your should aim to be down to "normal" speeds - by the time you're in the Kuyper belt there'll be more pebbles and rocks around for you to smash into, so having time to observe and avoid them is good, but perhaps you need to slow down by the time you get to the Oort cloud? Might be more safety-conscious, but mean you have a ton of time to get from there to the destination planet... The type of drive will impact the equation as well - if it's a slow and stead ion drive type thing, or a bring-your-own-rocket-fuel type thing. There's a lot more to consider too. But my main question is, "What direction do I point my spaceship in to get to Ross 128b, assuming my ship will average 10% light speed, and how do I make sure it stays on course the whole time?"
6:38 Carter... 🤯
Not practical because of the extreme radiation hazard. The only way to do it would be to capture a large asteriod, & hollow it out for shielding. You need a lot of mass to make it work.
Could such stations be used to store and refine material robots harvested from moons of other planets in our solarsystems?
24/7 🙃 access to solar and other kinds of energy could help to refine and compress valuable materials
Earth's shadow doesn't quite extend as far as the Earth-Sun L2 point.
We can only use 1 Lagrange point because we will probably park Halley's comet in the other for a giant fuel/ water/ O2 supply. If we get our act together now.
I think hallowing out the planet that creates the L point and build inside it is easier then build on the L point.
Whatever the planets surface issues might be. A cave is a cave on all planets. An L point is always a gravity well for anything from anywhere from space, in a cave whatever comes have to go trough a planet first, and since the planet was there before, it is a testament that it already survived whatever came before it will likelly survive whatever comes after.
Also the gravity should be the same in the planets core.
Isaac, Are the lagrange points part of a spherical field, where L4 and L5 are diametrically-opposed points of an actual ring, formed perpendicularly to an earth-to-sun axis, at L4/l5, or are those latitudinally-equidistant points less stable compared to those two orbit-coplanar points?
Nah, L4 and L5 work only because they're points on the orbital ring.
🎶 Oh, give me a locus where the gravitons focus
Where the three-body problem is solved,
Where the microwaves play down at three degrees K,
And the cold virus never evolved. (chorus)
CHORUS: Home, home on LaGrange,
Where the space debris always collects,
We possess, so it seems, two of Man's greatest dreams:
Solar power and zero-gee sex.
We eat algae pie, our vacuum is high,
Our ball bearings are perfectly round.
Our horizon is curved, our warheads are MIRVed,
And a kilogram weighs half a pound. (chorus)
If we run out of space for our burgeoning race
No more Lebensraum left for the Mensch
When we're ready to start, we can take Mars apart,
If we just find a big enough wrench. (chorus)
I'm sick of this place, it's just McDonald's in space,
And living up here is a bore.
Tell the shiggies, "Don't cry," they can kiss me goodbye
'Cause I'm moving next week to L4! (chorus)🎶
--Home on Lagrange (The L5 Song)
© 1978 by William S. Higgins and Barry D. Gehm
❤
Heaven's River from the Bobiverse next episode. :)
A hard sci fi series where different nations of today develop Lagrange points and the solar system is dense with development would be so interesting to read.
🎶 Rumor spreadin' 'round
In that Texas town
About that shack outside La Grange
And you know what I'm talkin' about
Just let me know if you wanna go
To that home out on the range
They got a lot of nice girls
Have mercy
A-haw, haw, haw, haw
A-haw, haw, haw, haw
Well, I hear it's fine
If you got the time
And the ten to get yourself in
A-hmm, hmm
And I hear it's tight
Most every night
But now I might be mistaken
Hmm, hmm, hmm
Have mercy 🎶
Halo music? I approve!
Can 2 bodies of equal or near equal mass exist in each other's L3?
I've been trying to find that zero G spot for most of my adult life. So far no luck