LOREBEARDS: Shadows of Change DLC: What Lore Has Changed? w/ Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law
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- Опубліковано 24 лют 2024
- Join Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law as they take a deep dive into the complete Shadows of Change DLC for Warhammer Total War 3 and examine all the new lore it adds. What's changed? What's stayed the same? And what has lurched in an entirely different direction?
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Podcast original stream date 25th February, 2024
#Warhammer #Lorebeards #warhammerfantasy #Lore #TotalWarWarhammer - Розваги
Ok we need a stream on how monsters view the societies of the world. The Gryphon and Eagles talking part was so interesting. I'd love to hear more about what they think lol.
this talk about silver flames really shows why you guys are the best lore podcast in my opinion. not only do you guys know about warhammer but you process information and make and explain such interesting connections that you not only explain what the world is, but what it could be with the many, (possibly unintended) crumbs left behind.
you not only explain the setting but broaden it and make it more interesting for someone getting into it.
Brothers and sisters, let this moment be marked in the books of lore for on this day Lawhammer surpassed the number 5000 forevermore
all that discussion of manticore vs. chaos manticore and giraffes and elephants now has me wondering what a chaos giraffe would look like.
I’ve always wondered if “Ice Magic” was actually Aqshy. Specifically the utter absence of Aqshy - almost a negative form of it.
As if the Ice Witches were adept at draining all Aqshy from an area which creates immense cold in its wake. If the Ancient Widow/Mother Kislev was some sort of entity beneath the land hoarding all the warmth for herself, or else hating it entirely and expelling it from the land.
Perhaps that could tie into Kaela Mensha Khaine having killed her partner, with Khaine often being depicted as burning, enforcing her hatred for the wind of fire.
Just shower thoughts.
5k subs yay!!!
🎉
A rodent with red armor is lurking in the dark...
Hearing your opinions on ostankya is fascinating, i personally like her lore, i like grim fairytales and Slavic stories, and the vibe of a strict mother, who believes in capital punishment as a learning tool
The "Who would lose"-Stream would be excellent for April 1st...
The "purification" of Celestial Lion is interesting because I have a personal speculation on Ind that is kinda related to that.
So since Grand Cathay reveal, I imagine CA and GW would make all Far East Nations to have certain "landmark" that is related to their nation of inspiration, like Great Bastion for Cathay.
In real life India myth, Gangges and Indus (though Gangges is more strongly associated, if I remember correctly) are seen as source of purification. Their water not just cleanse you of filth or dirt, but also sins, corruption, negative thinking, and even cure disease.
For Warhammer, I speculate that Ind will involve at least one Great River, flows from Mountain of Heaven, that can "purified" Chaos mutation.
As India has many animal headed Gods and Goddess, I think this can translate to Ind in Warhammer as beastmen in Ind (like Tigerman, but may also include the Monkey King) are not only purified by this Great River water, but they are also blessed by magical properties that make them seen as Godlike being by people within and without.
When Celestial Lion reveals that Dragon Emperor "purifies" them from chaos, it surprise me because it kinda confirms that chaotic animal can be "purified" (so beastmen should also be purifiable) and that this purification doesn't reverse its mutation (so beastmen should still look like beastmen, even after being "purified").
With the leak of Tigerman is in the work, this make think that maybe my speculation on Ind is close to GW's Ind. Maybe the beastmen in Ind are beastmen that has been "purified" and they still maintain their strength and probably magical ability which make people seen them as God or godlike being.
As next DLC should go further south, to the Monkey King and mountain of Heavens, we might have more information on Ind.
Exciting time!
This is a very interesting theory.
This is a very interesting theory.
39:40 42:20 say-tang
1:20:49 Kishl
2:56:24 I legit feel fear, I legit don't want to look at my window at night
I think in regards of Gundam and Nippon, it is important to remember that medieval China heavily influenced medieval Japan, from its written language (Kanji, which measn Han characters), religion (Buddhism and Neo-Confucianism), government system (Japanese Emperor is called "Tennoh"/"Ruler of Heaven" is adoption of Chinese Emperor's "Tianzi"/"Son of Heaven"), and many more.
So I won't be worry if Cathay and Nippon will share many elements, because I in fact think Nippon should have many elements similar to Cathay, but with their own twist.
And like in real life, just because China and Japan shared the same thing, that doesn't mean they won't be very different from each other.
For example, both China and Japan has martial monk in popular culture, but while China is famous for their Shaolin Monk who fights using bare fist martial arts, in Japan it has Ikko-ikki, an "organized" military order with actual weapon and armor.
Another example I can think of is in Chinese popular culture, they have wuxia as a tale of wandering warrior who helps the weak and fight against the tyrant. Meanwhile in Japan they ronin, but they are generally in popular culture as bandit and honorless counterpart to Samurai who serves their master dutifully.
So yeah, this is a longwinded way of saying that I personally think Nippon should have a lot elements that exist in Cathay, and instead of worrying that Cathay took too much from Nippon, I think the existence of being like Saytang is a sneakpeek from CA (and GW) about what might exist for Nippon.
Cross pollination IS a thing, and if lore writers can make things like The Empire(HRE Germany) feel like they DO connect to Nehekara(Dynastic Egypt) in a decent way, they can made those two flavorful but distinct.
one thing for saytang is that a bow provides a much larger area it can defend at once. with a spear it could attack with those leaps, but even still with a bow it can cover and defend a larger part of a border
Cleansing Chaos taint has been around for a while. At least from when Necoho and Zuvassin were introduced if not before.
Congratulations on the milestone
Thanks!
Woohoo! 5k subs! Grats!
Yay!
Good on Andy for calling out the abundance of editing errors in the book. I'm sure CA needs these books to be made on a shoestring budget, but honestly, they shouldn't make them at all if they have to compromise quality standards this much.
The whole moon thing with the silver flames, kinda makes it feel like it leans towards more of a Pure Moon/Cursed Moon counter play, which I think it kinda cool
"We want to track sales from AoS correctly" - GW possibly
"Ooops" me who bought about 600$ of SoulBlight Gravelords for a VC army in Old World
Awesome as always ❤
Thank you so much 😀
We need an Andy Total War Dark Elves campagin.
Congrats on 5K!
One of the few directions of expansion that remains for Kislev that seemingly remains is to heavily expand on the Orthodoxy since they’re seemingly done with Hags/Spirits and the Ungol/Gospodar split.
Some further context about the Druzhina. In medieval context it means fellowship. They were the retinue/guards/personal warriors of a slavic chieftain or prince. Also in modern Polish drużyna (which is the Polish spelling) means squad.
I for one support the idea that ice magic isn't directly tied into the Winds of Magic, as that is a byproduct of the collapse of the Polar Warp Gates, but instead a form of magic innate to the Warhammer Fantasy world itself. After all, dragons were still magical creatures before the Winds of Magic were introduced to the Warhammer Fantasy world, implying that the planet itself had a unique form of magic before the Old Ones showed up, but the planet was cold and the dragons LIKED it that way. So it stands to reason that part of the reason the Old Ones wanted to move the planet closer to the sun and establish the Polar Warp Gates is because they felt that this natural proliferation of ice magic was counter-productive to their plans to try and isolate the world from the influence of Chaos, but the fact that the gates still had to be placed in the polar regions implies that ice magic was considered too useful to the Great Plan to completely remove from the world.
Food for thought when topics like the Geomantic Web or more esoteric aspects of magic in Warhammer Fantasy get brought up.
You know, the discussion on warhammer fantasy not being the real world (I agree to be clear) got me thinking. What in your guys' opinion is the subtext(s) in warhammer lore? And what role does coding play in it?
I have my readings but I would be curious about what you guys would say.
Edit: also great steam!
When I read the entry about the Celestial Lions the first time I got the impression that these where just normal creatures native to Cathay once that had been tainted by Chaos but then have been cleansed and are more or less like their original self again.
Speaking of Manticores , Griffons and the like - I always had the impression that those where also normal inhabitants of the world as opposed to creatures originating from the Realm of Chaos. And in some cases - like the Manticores - they where corrupted.
53:10 When I saw the Frost Wyrm for the first time it looked like the Ancient Salamander to me (except the head).
1:31:10 Except the vortex spell - that one is never a blessing, you only take away the friendly fire with overcasting.
2:38:00 You might re-read that. It says that they are occasionally Boyars, not that they are occasionally Druzhina
that's spelled. This strongly implies that the Golden Knights are usually Ungols, not Gospodars. It also puts an interesting spin on the culturual homoginization you see (falsely in my opinion - even though the distinction between Ungols and Gospodars is less severe than before they strengthened the differences between city-dwellers and people living outside the cities. If you have a look at actual real world history you'll notice that this is indeed a much more important distinction, especially but not exclusively in Europe).
Here's a quote from the blog post: "This is an honorary rank bestowed to the greatest warrior among the Druzhina (or occasionally in history, Boyars or even the common soldiery)." end quote. This means that traditionally the bodyguard of the Tzar or Tzarina is an Ungol. This also means that there is a lot of potential conflict between the different Kislevite subcultures - I'm sure that many of the Boyars despise this fact. And lastly it also opens a lot of interesting interactions between the Orthodoxy and the Ungol culture.
It should also be mentioned that every faction/army is always represented in a way seen from the outside. You cannot expect that a Cathayan or a Bretonian understands the various different cultures within Kislev.
In regards to the other Hag mothers of older lore - I don't think that the new lore necessarily means they are all gone now. They can easily be brought back in different ways - some may simply be very old hag witches that prolonged their lives by magical means. Others might be spirits that occasionaly interact with the world in this way. Others might be something else entirely, like unique undead entities.
Would a Kislevite really know the difference between a fey wood elf and any other forest spirit though?
I have 3 theory’s for who/what mother O is. She’s either an avatar of the land in human like form(essentially just pure magic), she’s the original human of Kislev and/or a god in disguise, or is the chaos of the land compacted/bound into a singular form/prison, and then said chaos magic/power is used as a defense of the land against chaos(sort of ties into why she would have balewolves as well). Something along one of those is my best guess as to what she is with the little lore we have for her. I could also see her being the first tzarina or ursuns child(something along the lines of grombrindal and/or nakai). An almost godlike entity/savior that appears at time of need. Maybe she’s the mother of the land and her daughters(ie. Hag witches) are the mothers of the first leaders of Kislev. Or maybe mother O is the mother of the first tzar. The hag witches could also be the first ice witches. Lots of cool things they could do if they wanted to explain it
So Cathay has Gundams and Khuresh have Kaiju?
An interesting take is that the Dragon emperor may have forcibly stabilised a manticore variant in a form that benefited him.
I agree that the framing of mother Ostankya came across too vindictive. Withdrawing her protection until the 3 sons voluntarily gave themselves to her would have been sufficient. Harsh and requires the bargain fulfilled, but not pointlessly spiteful.
Having the Horsearcher be allowed to leave without his horse, to learn and spread the lesson of obeying the Mothers wishes is more pragmatic, and it could even be that only his observance of the offering earlier in the story bought him the tiniest bit of leeway to be the messenger.
I had an idea for an advanced southlands faction. Essentially an advanced fantasy version of the Zulu nation. Would be nice to get a fully black army imo. I had an idea for a unit of warriors whom have the legs of cheetahs(human torsos/heads), and are essentially an infantry unit with Calvary speed. Maybe lion riders, a giant two headed elephant monster that walks upright, spear unit that shoots lasers out their spear tips, etc. Lots of cool things they could do.
On the stance of GW differentiating so strictly between Old World and AoS...pretty sure it's just because they don't want people being able to use the same models for both games. They want you to buy them twice.
Yeah something really scummy I noticed is a lot of factions that aren’t in the Old World had a lot old Fantasy models that were still being used in AOS for a long time like Lizardmen.
YEEEEES ITS TIME FOR THE HEADTAKER!!!
2:57:12 for the animation
You know, since Chaos can corrupt normal critters and people, it would make sense that it would work in reverse. Aligning them with not Chaos.
So, my thoughts, and personal head cannon on the new Ostankya lore is that she's more of a spirit, She's the only Hag mother, but she seems to largely be more like a spirit. I think that she's an embodiment of the Ancient Widow/Witch, Maybe not so much like an avatar or something, but it seems like she takes the children and raises them to be the defenders of the land. This leans into her being the only "Hag Mother" because she's the only one who can (or does) raise someone to be a hag. This may be a narrowing, but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be extremely powerful hags that have become something more, they just aren't called hag mothers anymore, because they don't raise hags. If anything the lore that suggests that Hags have tried to kill her in the past, suggests that the process of becoming a hag, or raising someone to be a hag, is probably not a pleasant one, and one that may hold great resentment in others. That being said, I understand that I've inferred a lot with this, but it's interesting, and I think it could be a fun way to proceed.
On the whole Manticore to Celestial Lion, I was wondering if it was something like a creature similar to both existed before, was mutated during the cataclysm, but was purified/cured back by the Dragon Emperor.
Personally I would prefer of ice magic is a unique school or interpretation of light magic, life magic or a combination of both.
Because if we add more and more "elemental" winds of magic, we may get too many overlapps which makes the singular winds not stand out. Even now we have this situation which Ghur and Ghyran sharing a lot of their themes for example. Not to mention how each wind is supposed to have a very broad field of contents and interpretations. Thus I would prefer to explore these differing interpretations before elevating something into a new elemental lore of magic.
Why Hysh and/or Ghyran for ice magic? If we assume Hysh is about shining light, order and maybe stasis as an exrwme case of order, then all these things are found in ice. Which freezes things (Stasis), has complex but orderly structures (ice crystals, snow flakes) and can be very bright (don't look straight into snow without protection on a sunny day). Ghyran on the other side is often assiciated with water of various kinds, due to water being the main requirement of life. And ice is nothing but water frozen.
Maybe some beings like the ancient widow or the many spirits atttact Hysh into Kislev. Or it is the enlighning force of Hysh which gives a lot of these spirits sentience.
In addition this Hysh/Ghyran theme for the ice witches would contrast well with the Ulgu/Ghur theme which could be attributed to the Hag Witches.
I do fine it interesting how the two moons seem to have different influences in the world. The bad moon seems to be much more powerful in the west than the east, while the natural moon has much more influence in the east than the west.
Loved the links drawn with silver flames and the moon as an anti-chaos force. Made me excitedly think of moonfire arrows for the wood elves, but sadly these are anti-forces of order
The Kislev Frost worm is pretty great and their low tier halberd / Axe / Fork infantry are weirdly effective
Woodland Fey = Ice Elves? The Ancient Widow called Elves to protect the Motherland before the Gospodars, before even the Ungols?
WEC'VE DONE IT!🎉🎉🎉 5K! QWEEK COMES TO KILL THE BEARD THINGS YES-YES!
Mother ostanky as a collection of spirits Sounds a bit sus like a certain guy in a golden armor on a golden Throne on terra
Aw I missed this one! Stupid work!
Time to watch the VoD!
How bout them making those creatures attached to the aethyr to somehow get justify them breaking physics, like realistically, a manticore cant fly.
Queek time yes!!!
Yes, yes!
I think one angle for GW being so staunch about the appearance of Tzaangors in AOS vs TOW/WFB is simply them trying to double-dip on mini purchases. Is it gonna work? Probably not, but I have a feeling this is the intent
I legit remember there was a blade master mod for total war too and I cant find it anymore.
It’s part of that mod author’s larger Kislev overhaul mod now. If you’re not a fan of NuKislev, I highly recommend you check it out.
I now need a Cathayan astromancer in Lawhammer, perhaps confronting Luitpold in Middenheim with recontextualized "Tzeentchian"-concepts...
Also, before Total War the Monkey King and Dien Ch'ing (ambassador and Chaos cultist) were the only two named Cathayans I was fully aware of... The links and strife between Tzeench and Cathay always were painted strongly.
Imagine expanding all that juicy cathay lore only to being wiped out offscreen by the end times
Well the reason why the dragon emperor didn't make it to AoS might be because wifey was Tzeench all along...
With the mother story i to liked the setup when she arrived at the battlefield and then asked for the sons.
But i would have preferred that she was more of a messenger of the spirits and that they wanted to boys as payment and that she would have left a warning that the forces whatever they may be demands compensation and if not then THEY would punish the village rather then cackle-crow-poof the witch will take your kids
Holy shit Queek's comin!!!!!
No need to worry, surely Nippon give us the Warhammer version of Godzilla
Beware the ides of Queek
Centigors of Tzeentch don’t make sense to me. I like the lore tidbit they got(the horns shaping an eye), but it still doesent really fit them. They are more suited to being a slannesh unit, if you go off of their established lore. It just seemed an odd choice. If khorne get minatours/ghorgons, Tzeentch should have gotten cygors, slaanesh centigors, and nurgle jaberslythe/razorgors. It makes the most sense to me, but I don’t know if anyone would agree.
I agree with Andy’s take on the short story/new themes/lore for mother O. It feels very inconsistent, rushed, unplanned, and half assed. What makes it worse is the juxtaposition of her in tww3. It’s like two different characters that are simultaneously showcasing 5 different themes, lore ideas, characterizations, etc. The whole Kislev roster within the dlc screams of inconsistency , lore retcons, and contradictions to their own new lore. The fact that CA/GW tried to sell the druzhina as being someone who can lead mother O’s armies, and yet Mother O is directly opposed to the druzhina/literally kills one. GW say the druzhina are under the rule of the tzar/tzarina/modern culture of Kislev, and yet can also lead/support mother O’s monstrous armies? It’s a contradiction. It’s like having wood elves lead drichas armies. It’s that bad and damning to their own new lore. Things in the woods are another just confusing addition. They don’t even really outright explain why she had chaos units, but I guess now they are being retconned to not be chaos units anymore(poor communication/not being clear). Lots of things like that with all the units. Especially when they also explicitly stated that the ungol concept/history with mother O is not relevant/possibly non canon anymore. Insinuating that the possible ungol units(none are confirmed as ungol) can’t even use their ungol name as a reason for following her/leading her armies. So the only possible explanation for them following her is also being slashed by GW. Another thing I found confusing is how it almost seems like she doesn’t like anyone. Like who does she fight for and who supports her? Ungols? “Wild men”? Someone else?. I thought the akshina would be the new sort of representation of a wild/more ungol side of Kislev, but turns out they are Katarina secret police. Odd considering they dress more in accordance to mother O’s theme, and yet are a unit/people that are directly under the authority of the tzarina. The akshina were probably a unit whom originally were something else and then became what they became. So it’s just an amalgamation of poor writing, rushed decisions, the forced desire to change lore(likely for TM reasons), etc. GW should have told CA to wait on this specific character/expansion of the lore, as they clearly were not ready at this time to fully flesh out the characters units, themes, motivations, esthetic, etc. Lots of cool ideas and I’m all for change/not being stuck on old lore, but GW needs to be clear as to what they are doing/what they want. Communication, articulation, writing, etc. needs to be clear.
Im proper English and I hate being called British as well I’m not British I’m English basically when United Kingdom was formed England Scotland wales and Irish they created the United Kingdom or British because it means the same thing it’s on are passports as well British means united kingdom and the island of Britain
They might want to avoid norsca kislev spill over cuz Russian historians for a long time tried to deny the Viking element in their history. This was a response to the Nazi theory that aryan dna was the impetus for Russian state building as it entered into the bloodlines of the nobility. Vikings in Russia is pretty interesting and post-Soviet Russian historians are much more open to it. But maybe games workshop is worried about any controversy ?
can you tell us more abotu silver flame, it isn't a widespread concept...
This is a comment saying that I probably won't Catch Monday's Exciting Installment of Lawhammer, here on this very UA-cam channel, until a little later than usual, because I'm taking my mum out for her 70th birthday
Happy birthday to your mom. 🥳🎂🧓
I think the Ungol Gospodar thing going away is because it seems a little on the nose nowadays to have a culture of subjugated second class citizens, particularly Eastern European ones. Probably just didn’t want to write about racial tensions.
I wonder what could possibly have happened around two years ago (start of the war in Ukraine) that persuaded GW that cultural tensions might not be the theme they want Kislev to keep. It’s not at all like there is a real world parallel of the Gospadars (Russians) trying to eradicate a nearby more rural people who the Ungols literally draw much of their terminology and inspiration from (Ukrainians).
Edit - just watched further and agree - I think you are misunderstanding, it’s not that GW want to send the right message, it’s that they are trying sell a new product ‘Kislev’. That is undermined if a big part of that is very visibly relatable to a real world parallel. They want to push that under the rug and sell their product and ‘Old Kislev’ undermines that.
As a side I actually wish the clear Ukrainian inspiration for the Ungols would be noted more often and not just Step-people’s.
GW’s explanation/reasoning for tzangors not looking like the aos models=dumb. Literally goes against their own lore. “No separate species” they said . Ok that’s fine, tzaangors are not a separate species. They are literally just gors and/or bestigor with unique mutations(a staple aspect of beastmen lore) that are directly associated with the god they worship. By their logic we can’t have minatours or cygor, cause those are actually different species of beastmen. Even regular gors in lore have a multitude of unique mutations, and don’t all have goat heads. Their reason is literally just to keep AOS and fantasy separate, cause they want to prove how much cooler AOS is and they want to make money. Good job GW contradicting your own lore and only caring about money.