The slip is happening on the diagonal because the chassis and suspension are stiff and the two wheels touching the ground have less load (less articulation). This AWD system is crazy good ( low reaction time, passed all tests), better than most crossovers it seems.
Yeah, we are used to seeing bigger 4wd vehicles on here their suspension articulates more so they don't have this problem. It's not differential issue.
It’s no comparison, the torsen LSDs are mechanically coupled using gears rather than a typical suv which usually has open diffs or occasionally clutch packs with fluid coupling.
I think what often goes unmentioned here by reviewers of the GR Corolla's AWD system is that when you "lock in" a drive mode, it doesn't actually mean you are always getting that exact torque split at all times. This is to say, it's still going to favor FWD, but will give you UP TO 50-50 (when in track mode) in certain situations. Or it will give you UP TO 30-70 splits, say in cornering or icy/loose roads, but when the wheels straighten out and you're driving down the roads, it's primarily an FWD vehicle still. I think Engineering Explained breaks it down in some detail. But I think this slip test illustrates that you aren't getting 50-50 or 30-70 even though you put it in "track mode." You actually got MORE front wheel slip in those two modes than 60-40. You should have gotten less.
the drive ratios from the rear and front axles are different to force some power to the rear at all times. so yeah the more torque you send to the rear the more wheel slip you have to the front and vise versa.
@mikefoehr235 I see trucks stuck all the time. If you have two open diffs you aren't going anywhere in a truck. Oh and I've burried my ram 2500 and frontier many times lol. Everything gets stuck
@@sapperROSS I have driven thru 60 cm of snow ❄️ in my Tacoma to get to work. Has happened a few times. You can get anything stuck if you try hard enough. Getting a 4 wheel drive stuck takes some effort.
Just got my corolla last week! I’ve been driving manual since I was young, working in auto for 10 years I’ve driven an uncountable amount of manual cars, my new gr was the first car I’ve stalled in 5 years on the second day , I couldn’t believe it, im a lazy driver and this not a manual car that can be driven with little care because of its weird clutch point and not by system especially new, wow that being said it’s the best, This is the best car I’ve driven in years, and community response is insane
I've got a GRC with the LSDs, and I'm happy TFL conducted this test. In track driving, I can affirm that I can feel the torsen diffs aggressively push power to the outside wheels. Not as aggressive as the clutch pack eLSD on my old Veloster N, however. 50/50 Track mode is the fastest and easiest to drive, IMO. Followed by 60/40, and lastly 30/70. It still has the weight distribution of a FWD car, so driving it on the limit in 30/70 means that the car isn't getting the power down effectively since the rear is so light compared to the front. I just drive mine in 50/50 all the time now. The GRC looks to be super effective in the snow and inclement conditions. I'll just put on Michelin CrossClimate 2s and never have to worry about road conditions. I'm impressed at how simple and lightweight Toyota made this AWD system. And even more impressed at how effective it really is in the real world.
Love it when people say they know how to do something because they've been doing it a long time. I've known guys that have been driving manual for 30 years and still didn't know what they were doing.
These rollers are tougher than actual near zero friction like say wet ice. You really need a decent amount of torque especially in the 3 wheel test because you have to push the other 3 wheels up and over the roller. Not having the hole between rollers would be closer to real world. This is like 3 tires stuck in potholes made of slick ice, where they are raised. Pretty sure even with open diffs this car would smash winter weather, those are really more track focused imho. I had a manual Avant for 15 Canadian winters, Torsen center diff and open front and rear with just traction control helping out and there was nothing it couldn't go through, sure footed even on packed snow roads. This would be even better.
Also the rear is so light, there just wasn't much friction available in the rear 3 wheel test. Just watch that 1 rear tire slip trying to overcome the holes the other 3 wheels are in.
I think with the way this AWD system creates this torque splits that you won't see a lot of difference on a slip test. You get a rear bias by means of a rear differential ratio that is slightly overgeared compared to the front, which means you need to slip the clutch all the time but it also means you need to be moving fast enough that the small gearing difference in the rear axle can be a factor in creating a torque imbalance. In other words you don't get a rear bias until the rear can "push" the front. From a stop you aren't going to get enough windup for that to happen and even the minimal clamping load on the rear drive module you have more than you need to get off the rollers without winding up the drivetrain.
The opposite wheel test (~10:00) it spins because it's so stiff. If you raised the non roller wheels it would pull right off.. this is the only 'bad side' of a stiff chassis. I met the designer of the R35 GTR and they said that making the car too stiff for the Nurburgring actually made it slower - food for thought ;l)
2:00 I’ve been posting this for years about why lockers are infinitely dynamic the opposite of 50:50 and why open diffs are actually 50:50 since one wheel relies upon the opposite wheel to generate torque.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers I dont think So. Never heard of modern rav4 with torsens. Also here rear final drive ratio is slightly faster than front. In GR multiplate rear drive clutch is a constant slip clutch.
@@fiskusmati Non hybrid Rav4 has the same layout - PTU at front and ITCC clutch-pack in the rear. Front and rear diffs are open, like in basic GR Yaris and GR Corolla. Of course there's no rear overdrive ratio, Rav4 is not designed for oversteer etc. However there is version with torque vectoring on rear axle but that's only on specific versions.
In some of those tests, the weight available to the tires on the ground is what makes this harder. This was much worse case than the normal limited traction conditions that will be faced. Also, based on other info on the GR, the torque split is the limit with the system being FWD biased and sending torque back as needed up to the set limit.
The diagonal skid test actually had wheels off the ground, which is why there was wheels spinning off the ground. When you switched to 3 wheel slip wheels were actually touching something.
Explanation of how this AWD system works: The front differential is the final drive of the transmission. If your transmission is in gear and the clutch is out, the front diff will always spin and has a direct link to the transmission with no slipping in between. The driveshaft to the rear wheels is also directly linked to the front differential and is redirected 90° through the transfer case with again, no point of slippage. The rear differential is where everything happens. At the input shaft, there is an electronically controlled magnetic wet clutch pack that varies its clamping force to allow the rear wheels to spin only up to however fast the front differential is since the rear driveshaft is physically linked to it. The only special difference about this drivetrain that allows a “30F/70R” TORQUE split is that the rear axle is geared to spin 0.7% faster than front axle, even though it’s literally being rotated by the front axle. Fun fact of the day: Among likely many other vehicles, one notable car that’s used this system is the 2005-2007 Mazdaspeed6, although the difference in rear axle speed was only 0.09% faster
The way the AWD works for the Corolla is there is a electronic clutch in the rear diff that controls the torque split from the front to the rear. There is no center diff. This means it is still front biased which you can see in the difference in wheel spin in front to rear split tests. It also means that the rear diff, with the clutch, can be prone to overheating. This will force the car into FWD mode. But overall the AWD is pretty impressive for a car that doesn’t have center diff and is not showing any braking for torque transfer.
I wouldn't be surprised that the drive mode is basically ignored from a stand still, and that the car decides itself how to distribute the torque to get the best possible launch to some degree, and then the selected torque split comes in once you have some speed.
Can we all just stop for a second and pull ourselves back to awe in admiration at Toyota and their engineering department? Toyota literally makes million mile cars as well as cars that are so perfect like this GR Corolla that they can tackle and demolish any surface or task. This is a feat of modern engineering and y’all be crying about his manual driving skills - 😂😂😂 - y’all have no perspective … also, Tommy sexy AF nowadays 😍😍😍
Looking at the video of the diagonal slip test makes it seem like the test is actually disfavourable for lowered cars with stiffer suspensions/sway bars. The thickness of the roller platforms combined with the stiff sway bars seem to be lowering the contact pressure of the opposite corners that are supposed to be on the ground reducing traction. It's like when I jack up a corner on my car that has an aftermmarket sway bar, both sides of the same "axle" lift for a bit because the sway bar is supporting both sides. I bet that if you had a static platform, like a slab of concrete, under the wheels that are not on rollers to keep both ends leveled, it might change the result and make the car roll off sooner in some tests like this GR Corolla. Not as big of a deal on crossovers and SUVs with lots of suspension travel though.
Not everyone who drives stick KNOWS how to drive stick. Case in point, 20 year old me. Found all the gears, but taking off and shifting smelled pretty bad after a bit. Older me can drive much better.
From what I've seen, it's like they said with this AWD system, front wheel bias. That is why the front wheels are always spinning immediately. Only when the system picks up the slip from the front is when it sends the power to the back. That LSD and 30/70 did help it a lot at the end. I am surprised how responsive the AWD is! Additionally, we have to understand the over heating issue with the system which will cause it to go into FWD only.
I believe as soon as the awd system detects a reasonable amount of wheelspeed difference between the front and rear axle, it changes the engagement split between the two for best traction. It doesnt stay in the preset engagement split.
So I spec’d my build out on Toyota’s site. $40k all in ain’t bad. I did a black core, with the performance package with options, which includes the Cold Weather and Tech packages. For accessories I chose only the All Weather floor liner, cargo trays, and GR shift knob & door sill protector styling package. All in, $40,158.00 pulling the trigger on this one.
Always love these videos testing different AWD systems! I’ve been curious how my car (2001 Subaru 2.5RS) would do in a situation like this! Just a mechanical system and have always wondered!
I've driven my 99 RS 2.5 for 11 years, in many many snows and some nasty, muddy flooded camping trails. The thing is an absolute tank. There were quite a few trucks that got stuck on the muddy camping trail (rained all weekend) and had to be pulled out with a tractor due to them sinking in the mud, while the Subaru, being wayyyy lighter, stayed more on top of the mud.
Engineering Explained has a really good explanation on how it works. Whilst Jason does talk about the GR Yaris system, it is the same as in the GR Corolla.
Actually the layout of the system is the same as for haldex, power transfer unit at front and clutch-pack in the rear. When it comes to quattro - there's over twenty different systems, better ones and worse ones.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers there are no front bias haldex system vehicles that come with front and rear torsen diffs. You cant not drive with haldex engaged for any length of time without overheating. As the clutch packs can last alot longer under spirited driving. Real quattros rs model not tt/rs3 haldex. Have a 4to1 torsen center diff , giving you up to 80% front or rear, and will have some sort of lsd in the rear. B5 rs4, B7 rs4, B8 rs5..... as a b8 s4 only does 60%. The golf r and the rs3 haldex system can only ever do 50/50 for short period of time. Toyota wins in front bias awd.
@@freecanadaplease Front and rear torsens are optional here, basic versions of GR Corolla and GR Yaris have open diffs. AWD system of these Toyota models is just like haldex - it's based on a clutch-pack, the difference is that it's electro-magnetic, not electro-hydraulic like haldex. And it can overheat to. When it comes comes to torque splits - that's more complicated, you have to consider static torque split and dynamic torque split. 50/50 is max static unless different diffs ratios are used, but dynamic may vary from 100/0 to ~0/100. "Real quattros" are not only S/RS but almost all (from A4) with engines >500 Nm, all based on torsen CSM. Any by the way - newest RS3 and Golf R do not have haldex any more.
I think what may clarify the 60/40, 50/50, 30/70 is that these numbers are assuming a normal dry road, going straight. How the system works is that you have a FWD car, period, it's FWD, but then it has a PTO to the rear diff which has an advanced multi-plate wet clutch. The rear diff is geared such that as you connect the rear through that clutch the rear wheels begin to overdrive compared to the front, unloading the front tires, and thus taking a bigger torque load. You can kinda see this on the rear wheels stuck test, there's a tiiiiny bit of procession on the rear wheels vs the front. Now once you're in snow or trying to drift, unlike a car with a true center diff like older BMWs or Subaru STIs, Evos, this car once that rear diff is locked, there's only a tiny bit of procession. So you can't crank up the wheel speed and get a big huge slide. Where with an STI, if that center diff is open it's rear biased and it'll overdrive the rear tires significantly.
Last I checked the STI had a helical front, center, and rear diffs which naturally make a torque bias… also has an electromagnetic clutch on the center diff.
Mechanical LSD will always outperform ABS systems traction control. Its instantaneous, no waiting for ABS to compensate. This is the same result as a WRX STI vs a Crosstrek.
Can you guys compare a 2023 raptor with no front torsion with a gen 2 raptor with front torsion on this test? There are a lot of people who would like to see 1) the upgrades to brake modulation in the gen 3 and 2) if those updates truly negate the need for the front LSD
torsen works as an open diff if there is no traction to the wheel (the one on the roller) UNLESS it is pre-loaded... I am almost certain it was the traction control applied very slight brake to the unloaded wheel to help regain traction across the axle, the dynamics doesn't look it has a pre-loaded torsen diff.
It looks like it works like an open diff but the torque split inside the torsen is still unsymmetrical, even when one wheel is on a roller. That makes it very different from 50/50 open diff, less traction control intervention is needed.
Cool in 6 to 8 years the rest of us will see how they work. That’s how long the wait list are at my local dealerships. And let’s not talk about the dealership mark up if you can actually find one.
It’s a car… so the difference we are seeing in the bias I am almost convinced is purely weight based. What’s the weight split? Heavy front end will totally make the test work exaclty like you see it. Perhaps try it in reverse?
@@shattered115 also a ton of underbody protection. However you have to leep in mind, rally wheels and tyres are very expensive so is a good racing suspension from fox.
@@yucolin3876 no its not much like a subaru wrs sti or lancer evolution isnt ready for rallying despite both being homologation cars. It takes much more than a good awd system and light weight to declair a car as a rally car. You need heigher springs, offroad racing dumpers, underbody armor, rally wheels and rally tyres with more sidewall and lots of extra cooling. Add that to the fact that the gr corolla awd system has a weakpoint, (you can check another comment i ve made on this video for more details) and you realise that the gr corolla is not as rally ready as they have led you to believe. Now if someome has the resources, he cant turn it into a rally ready car, which you cant do with many other sports cars.
Some basic explanation on awd systems and how diiffs work so you can better understand the gr corollla awd system and its weaknesses it has, for anyone who might be intrested. Im an engineering student so dont take my word for it, this how i undrestand it. (it may contain spelling or grammar mistakes, english is not my native languge and i hadnt had writing practice in a while.) torsen diifs and all atb diffs like wavetruck torsen quaife diffs dont lock, they cannot lock on their own. That menas they cannot forse both tyres to rotate with the same speed, they are not speed sensitive, they are torque sensitive. Tha means they wiil force torque to they wheel with most traction by trying to "lock", as long as at least one wheel has traction. They al have small lock percentage, depending on the diff. So if one wheel has no traction, they cannot tranfer torque. In order to get unstuck, torque vectoring via braking must occur so that that the spinning wheel gets some resistance(load). And that the drawback of a torsen type. Then whats the difference from an open diff in that case. The difference is that much less braking must occur for the car to move so less brake wear. Plus the times when one wheel has zero trction are not so often. Wavetruck has a pattern where the diff gets preloaded with springs so it has higher lock percentage and it can operate even if one wheel has close to zero traction, on paper at least. The benefit of these diffs is that there are cheaper to buy and maintain and they dont wear oyt as easily. In contrast, a clutch type diff has much higher lock percentage and ots speed sencitive so it reacts to speed difference not traction difference. That diff willmtry to lock the wheels even more and will almost have them rotate with the same speed. However since it reliess o traction between clutch plates, the diffs need regular maintance and they cannot take s much load. There are two types of clutch type diffs, electronically controlled or torque vectoring diffs(with are different from torque vectroring via braking) and mechanically controlled. Both are mechanical diifs, what changes is the way the engage and the ammount of control you have over their operation. e-clutch diffs are more adaptive and they are predictive, meaning the cars traction control locks them before they need to be locked based on the driving situation where as the other are reactive meaning they react after loss of traction has already occur. Different drivers will prefer either one or the other and most times they will reject any different opinions lol, specially purists. Another drawback of the mechanical clutch type diff is that its noisy and obtrusive in everyday driving as you cannot control its locking function. Thst can be very annoying in tight slow speed manuvers like parking where the diff is locking due to great speed difference thus making manuvers difficult(unless you park by drifting your car haha). An e diff wont lock in that situation since its actuated using eletric motors controlled by the cars ecu. A tosen wouldnt lock either since as we said, its traction sensitive and not speed sensitive. A true locking differential can be any of the diffs above(open , torsen, clutch type) but with the ability to fully locked with a use of a lock ring. For example wrangler rubicons used to have a torsen read diff which could be aslo locked so being the best of both worlds. The gr corollas awd system disadvantage though lies on its center diff. While it says it has three different lock percentages, it doesnt actually lock, it does not stay locked. It uses a clutch type center diff like a haldex unit with the difference beign that the driver can manually choose the torque split, but it splits torque and it does not affect wheel speed difference between axles, much like a haldex would do automatically or much like a quattro systme with a trosen center differential would do. Thats important cause if you are to use the gr corolla for ralling or track use, after a few laps, the clutches on the cenetr diff will overheat and the diff will disengadge rendering the car FWD. Thats because the center diff is not meant to hold the selected split all the time(as i said it doesnt lock) but rather to only engage when needed. So in a case where it would need to stay "locked" all the time like in driving on a track or a dirt road for fun, the diff woud overheat unlike a torsen in an audi which is meant to have awd engaged all the time. However, toyotas decision to use torsen diffs instead of clutch type diffs, was very clever as they are more reliable and cheaper to maintain na deasier t live with in day to day driving(which is what toyota owners want) and even if you were to actually go rallying with your gr, zero traction situations would be almost zero and the torsen diff combined with the traction control system, would do just fine. desides, a rally driver is more concerned about smooth torque tranfer that can be achieved with torsen diffs than unlimited slow speed traction like in a rockcrawling situation(or that what i guess anyways). My analysis is not perfect and maybe in complete so if someone has question i will try aswer them. For better visualisation you can visit engineering explained and weber univercity channels vids about diffs.
I've tracked this system in the GR Yaris. there isn't much difference between the modes once the rear diff/clutch pack gets hot (about 5-10 mins of track work on a warm day - longer when it's colder outside). it then goes 100% fwd :(. on the road there is a more noticeable difference, as you're not getting it too hot.
Man I really want one of these. Sucks that at the toyota dealer where I work we're getting one circuit edition but are going to mark it up 12k. Screw all that
You guys should put in a drag strip and make an area with long strips of rollers strategically placed whereby you could do the slip tests on cars with various wheelbases. Or make them in such a way that they can be covered for testing/protection but also facilitate plowing snow and whatnot. Great video though! Interesting to see how that AWD system performed! That car is a total beast!
Thumbs down on the D-4ST fuel delivery system on this engine. Instead of buying just three injectors for the port injection, you also have to buy three additional expensive injectors for the DI system. Avoid all that nonsense with a port injected engine only.
And with all these stalls and screaming tires you see why automatic transmissions are so much better today than CVTs or even a manual. Because of the TORQUE CONVERTER.
people saying this is a good awd system must have low expectations. a system that claims to be this advanced shouldn't have struggled with the last test at all! much less slipping until the other wheel bumps the side of the roller to gain traction...
Not exactly, this is performance system, not traction system. Despite that it's doing very well, we did it with GR Yaris and there's no doubt it can make it with no traction gained from a side of a roller.
The slip is happening on the diagonal because the chassis and suspension are stiff and the two wheels touching the ground have less load (less articulation). This AWD system is crazy good ( low reaction time, passed all tests), better than most crossovers it seems.
Yeah, we are used to seeing bigger 4wd vehicles on here their suspension articulates more so they don't have this problem. It's not differential issue.
@@ajmarecki My Jeep YJ wouldn't have passed the diagonal test without traction diffs.
Also if he upgraded tires sure would make a huge difference
Seems better than their crossover AWD systems
It’s no comparison, the torsen LSDs are mechanically coupled using gears rather than a typical suv which usually has open diffs or occasionally clutch packs with fluid coupling.
most AWD systems on NPC vehicles are a joke.
Cuz oblivion NPCs be duuuumb af
Probably helps that this car has twice the power of their suvs as well.
@@aaromon43npc? Nonplayable character?
These slip tests are amazing. These really push your tests to the top of the heap with regards to other testers/reviews. Many thanks.
They are copied from a guy in Poland who has been doing European cars for years
@@wodgesadand? Many people do the same types of content. People watch certain content creators for the style or their personality.
I think what often goes unmentioned here by reviewers of the GR Corolla's AWD system is that when you "lock in" a drive mode, it doesn't actually mean you are always getting that exact torque split at all times. This is to say, it's still going to favor FWD, but will give you UP TO 50-50 (when in track mode) in certain situations. Or it will give you UP TO 30-70 splits, say in cornering or icy/loose roads, but when the wheels straighten out and you're driving down the roads, it's primarily an FWD vehicle still. I think Engineering Explained breaks it down in some detail. But I think this slip test illustrates that you aren't getting 50-50 or 30-70 even though you put it in "track mode." You actually got MORE front wheel slip in those two modes than 60-40. You should have gotten less.
Exactly. It's an excellent AWD system for sure.
the drive ratios from the rear and front axles are different to force some power to the rear at all times. so yeah the more torque you send to the rear the more wheel slip you have to the front and vise versa.
Interesting, it actually explains alot what happens in this video because it seems like the front wheels get more power than the rears in all mode.
@@louismacvux*Engeneering Explained* and *4x4.tests.on.rollers* did great explanations of this system, all is perfectly clear.
was thinking the same thing. And I think a higher revs its definitely more dramatic of a response in respect to the ''up to''
Can you imagine a truck getting stuck but this small lil car is getting through everything😅
I doubt a truck would lose
@@mikefoehr235 I've seen trucks stuck in snow b4 and small cars like this with AWD gliding right thru it
@@PhillyDee215 Not me. When the snow gets deep, small cars plow the snow and then just don't move.
@mikefoehr235 I see trucks stuck all the time. If you have two open diffs you aren't going anywhere in a truck. Oh and I've burried my ram 2500 and frontier many times lol. Everything gets stuck
@@sapperROSS I have driven thru 60 cm of snow ❄️ in my Tacoma to get to work. Has happened a few times. You can get anything stuck if you try hard enough. Getting a 4 wheel drive stuck takes some effort.
Just got my corolla last week! I’ve been driving manual since I was young, working in auto for 10 years I’ve driven an uncountable amount of manual cars, my new gr was the first car I’ve stalled in 5 years on the second day , I couldn’t believe it, im a lazy driver and this not a manual car that can be driven with little care because of its weird clutch point and not by system especially new, wow that being said it’s the best,
This is the best car I’ve driven in years, and community response is insane
As a Subaru enjoyer I really want one of these. It's the great little AWD hatch we all want.
Tommy, thanks for keeping the stall-outs in the videos. No shame in that, and it encourages newbies to manuals.
I've got a GRC with the LSDs, and I'm happy TFL conducted this test. In track driving, I can affirm that I can feel the torsen diffs aggressively push power to the outside wheels. Not as aggressive as the clutch pack eLSD on my old Veloster N, however. 50/50 Track mode is the fastest and easiest to drive, IMO. Followed by 60/40, and lastly 30/70. It still has the weight distribution of a FWD car, so driving it on the limit in 30/70 means that the car isn't getting the power down effectively since the rear is so light compared to the front. I just drive mine in 50/50 all the time now. The GRC looks to be super effective in the snow and inclement conditions. I'll just put on Michelin CrossClimate 2s and never have to worry about road conditions. I'm impressed at how simple and lightweight Toyota made this AWD system. And even more impressed at how effective it really is in the real world.
Love it when people say they know how to do something because they've been doing it a long time. I've known guys that have been driving manual for 30 years and still didn't know what they were doing.
These rollers are tougher than actual near zero friction like say wet ice. You really need a decent amount of torque especially in the 3 wheel test because you have to push the other 3 wheels up and over the roller. Not having the hole between rollers would be closer to real world. This is like 3 tires stuck in potholes made of slick ice, where they are raised.
Pretty sure even with open diffs this car would smash winter weather, those are really more track focused imho. I had a manual Avant for 15 Canadian winters, Torsen center diff and open front and rear with just traction control helping out and there was nothing it couldn't go through, sure footed even on packed snow roads. This would be even better.
Also the rear is so light, there just wasn't much friction available in the rear 3 wheel test. Just watch that 1 rear tire slip trying to overcome the holes the other 3 wheels are in.
I would love to see a side to side vs a VW R or Focus RS
There’s a video with the Gr Yaris vs the Ford focus RS.
@@Zack_Axelthanks I’ll check it out!
@@christopherbassit2757Yeap, Polish roller guys did that.
I think with the way this AWD system creates this torque splits that you won't see a lot of difference on a slip test. You get a rear bias by means of a rear differential ratio that is slightly overgeared compared to the front, which means you need to slip the clutch all the time but it also means you need to be moving fast enough that the small gearing difference in the rear axle can be a factor in creating a torque imbalance. In other words you don't get a rear bias until the rear can "push" the front. From a stop you aren't going to get enough windup for that to happen and even the minimal clamping load on the rear drive module you have more than you need to get off the rollers without winding up the drivetrain.
Yeah I think your exactly right. It's super cool and great for a track car. But for a daily seems like bad for efficiency and longevity
I was about to comment that but you took all the fame here☕
I thoroughly enjoy the slip testing content 👏 👏 👏
The opposite wheel test (~10:00) it spins because it's so stiff. If you raised the non roller wheels it would pull right off.. this is the only 'bad side' of a stiff chassis. I met the designer of the R35 GTR and they said that making the car too stiff for the Nurburgring actually made it slower - food for thought ;l)
The front wheel always has more traction than the rear because of the engine on the front axle
2:00 I’ve been posting this for years about why lockers are infinitely dynamic the opposite of 50:50 and why open diffs are actually 50:50 since one wheel relies upon the opposite wheel to generate torque.
I would love to have this system on RAV4 instead of what is currently offered.
Actually non-hybrid Rav4 has basically the same system.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers I dont think So. Never heard of modern rav4 with torsens. Also here rear final drive ratio is slightly faster than front. In GR multiplate rear drive clutch is a constant slip clutch.
@@fiskusmati Non hybrid Rav4 has the same layout - PTU at front and ITCC clutch-pack in the rear. Front and rear diffs are open, like in basic GR Yaris and GR Corolla. Of course there's no rear overdrive ratio, Rav4 is not designed for oversteer etc. However there is version with torque vectoring on rear axle but that's only on specific versions.
The awd system in that gr corolla is pretty awesome.
In some of those tests, the weight available to the tires on the ground is what makes this harder. This was much worse case than the normal limited traction conditions that will be faced.
Also, based on other info on the GR, the torque split is the limit with the system being FWD biased and sending torque back as needed up to the set limit.
The diagonal skid test actually had wheels off the ground, which is why there was wheels spinning off the ground. When you switched to 3 wheel slip wheels were actually touching something.
Explanation of how this AWD system works:
The front differential is the final drive of the transmission. If your transmission is in gear and the clutch is out, the front diff will always spin and has a direct link to the transmission with no slipping in between.
The driveshaft to the rear wheels is also directly linked to the front differential and is redirected 90° through the transfer case with again, no point of slippage.
The rear differential is where everything happens. At the input shaft, there is an electronically controlled magnetic wet clutch pack that varies its clamping force to allow the rear wheels to spin only up to however fast the front differential is since the rear driveshaft is physically linked to it.
The only special difference about this drivetrain that allows a “30F/70R” TORQUE split is that the rear axle is geared to spin 0.7% faster than front axle, even though it’s literally being rotated by the front axle.
Fun fact of the day: Among likely many other vehicles, one notable car that’s used this system is the 2005-2007 Mazdaspeed6, although the difference in rear axle speed was only 0.09% faster
The way the AWD works for the Corolla is there is a electronic clutch in the rear diff that controls the torque split from the front to the rear. There is no center diff. This means it is still front biased which you can see in the difference in wheel spin in front to rear split tests. It also means that the rear diff, with the clutch, can be prone to overheating. This will force the car into FWD mode. But overall the AWD is pretty impressive for a car that doesn’t have center diff and is not showing any braking for torque transfer.
At the ranch but you didn't take it off road!? A little disappointing.
Great testing, all you made a new drinking game...drink every time you stall it lol
You can see this is a FWD car first and foremost. This little hatch would be a hoot!
I wouldn't be surprised that the drive mode is basically ignored from a stand still, and that the car decides itself how to distribute the torque to get the best possible launch to some degree, and then the selected torque split comes in once you have some speed.
especially if he has traction control on, kinda just realizes the situation it's in
Can we all just stop for a second and pull ourselves back to awe in admiration at Toyota and their engineering department? Toyota literally makes million mile cars as well as cars that are so perfect like this GR Corolla that they can tackle and demolish any surface or task. This is a feat of modern engineering and y’all be crying about his manual driving skills - 😂😂😂 - y’all have no perspective … also, Tommy sexy AF nowadays 😍😍😍
with only the rear right i think it was a considerable difference. pretty cool
The diagonal test should have all tires raised but with solid planks or rollers for more accurate test conditions.
Just drove a core version of this car, wow what fun!
Great stuff! I drive My GR in all conditions and this is going to be helpful on the first deep snow day.
Looking at the video of the diagonal slip test makes it seem like the test is actually disfavourable for lowered cars with stiffer suspensions/sway bars. The thickness of the roller platforms combined with the stiff sway bars seem to be lowering the contact pressure of the opposite corners that are supposed to be on the ground reducing traction. It's like when I jack up a corner on my car that has an aftermmarket sway bar, both sides of the same "axle" lift for a bit because the sway bar is supporting both sides. I bet that if you had a static platform, like a slab of concrete, under the wheels that are not on rollers to keep both ends leveled, it might change the result and make the car roll off sooner in some tests like this GR Corolla. Not as big of a deal on crossovers and SUVs with lots of suspension travel though.
Not everyone who drives stick KNOWS how to drive stick. Case in point, 20 year old me. Found all the gears, but taking off and shifting smelled pretty bad after a bit. Older me can drive much better.
I plopped down a deposit and look forward to taking delivery!
Here in the PNW, it'll be quite the four-season weapon.
From what I've seen, it's like they said with this AWD system, front wheel bias. That is why the front wheels are always spinning immediately. Only when the system picks up the slip from the front is when it sends the power to the back. That LSD and 30/70 did help it a lot at the end. I am surprised how responsive the AWD is! Additionally, we have to understand the over heating issue with the system which will cause it to go into FWD only.
There's no slip of front needed to activate the system, actually it active almost all the time.
I believe as soon as the awd system detects a reasonable amount of wheelspeed difference between the front and rear axle, it changes the engagement split between the two for best traction. It doesnt stay in the preset engagement split.
So I spec’d my build out on Toyota’s site. $40k all in ain’t bad. I did a black core, with the performance package with options, which includes the Cold Weather and Tech packages. For accessories I chose only the All Weather floor liner, cargo trays, and GR shift knob & door sill protector styling package.
All in, $40,158.00 pulling the trigger on this one.
Very sick build! I have to decide with this similar budget myself between this, Jeep, Rav4 hybrid, 4runner. Its going to be tough!
Let us know if you actually find one for that price.
I would expect below 10mph, these split options are identical. They likely have speed based splits as 5mph is very very different than 50mph.
Always love these videos testing different AWD systems! I’ve been curious how my car (2001 Subaru 2.5RS) would do in a situation like this! Just a mechanical system and have always wondered!
What kind of diffs are there?
I've driven my 99 RS 2.5 for 11 years, in many many snows and some nasty, muddy flooded camping trails. The thing is an absolute tank. There were quite a few trucks that got stuck on the muddy camping trail (rained all weekend) and had to be pulled out with a tractor due to them sinking in the mud, while the Subaru, being wayyyy lighter, stayed more on top of the mud.
Poor clutch lol fun video though! 🎉
Please try a car with a Haldex system
Which one would you like to see?
I think this car has an almost perfect AWD or perfect system
Engineering Explained has a really good explanation on how it works. Whilst Jason does talk about the GR Yaris system, it is the same as in the GR Corolla.
For a front bias system with torsens i think its the best. No quattro but way better the the haldex.
Actually the layout of the system is the same as for haldex, power transfer unit at front and clutch-pack in the rear. When it comes to quattro - there's over twenty different systems, better ones and worse ones.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers there are no front bias haldex system vehicles that come with front and rear torsen diffs. You cant not drive with haldex engaged for any length of time without overheating. As the clutch packs can last alot longer under spirited driving. Real quattros rs model not tt/rs3 haldex. Have a 4to1 torsen center diff , giving you up to 80% front or rear, and will have some sort of lsd in the rear. B5 rs4, B7 rs4, B8 rs5..... as a b8 s4 only does 60%. The golf r and the rs3 haldex system can only ever do 50/50 for short period of time. Toyota wins in front bias awd.
@@freecanadaplease Front and rear torsens are optional here, basic versions of GR Corolla and GR Yaris have open diffs. AWD system of these Toyota models is just like haldex - it's based on a clutch-pack, the difference is that it's electro-magnetic, not electro-hydraulic like haldex. And it can overheat to. When it comes comes to torque splits - that's more complicated, you have to consider static torque split and dynamic torque split. 50/50 is max static unless different diffs ratios are used, but dynamic may vary from 100/0 to ~0/100. "Real quattros" are not only S/RS but almost all (from A4) with engines >500 Nm, all based on torsen CSM. Any by the way - newest RS3 and Golf R do not have haldex any more.
I think what may clarify the 60/40, 50/50, 30/70 is that these numbers are assuming a normal dry road, going straight. How the system works is that you have a FWD car, period, it's FWD, but then it has a PTO to the rear diff which has an advanced multi-plate wet clutch. The rear diff is geared such that as you connect the rear through that clutch the rear wheels begin to overdrive compared to the front, unloading the front tires, and thus taking a bigger torque load. You can kinda see this on the rear wheels stuck test, there's a tiiiiny bit of procession on the rear wheels vs the front. Now once you're in snow or trying to drift, unlike a car with a true center diff like older BMWs or Subaru STIs, Evos, this car once that rear diff is locked, there's only a tiny bit of procession. So you can't crank up the wheel speed and get a big huge slide. Where with an STI, if that center diff is open it's rear biased and it'll overdrive the rear tires significantly.
have you done a wrx?
Have you ever driven in the snow ? The fact that you would ever drive this car in
Snowing nuts good luck
If there’s any way Toyota could lift this a few inches (like a Subaru Crosstrek) and leave the Manual trans -they got my money instantly!
Thank you! This were the tests that I wanted to see!!!
Yay kase awesome job love ya champ . Tommy dude I’m so proud of you You both are spectacular best friends.
Now let's see how the CTR compares.
Last I checked the STI had a helical front, center, and rear diffs which naturally make a torque bias… also has an electromagnetic clutch on the center diff.
GR Corolla doesn't have center diff at all, just electromagnetic coupling which sends power to the rear axle.
And an engine prone to exploding Subaru style
CAN'T WAIT WRC TOYOTA GRC come to CHATTANOOGA, TENNESSEE next year.
Mechanical LSD will always outperform ABS systems traction control. Its instantaneous, no waiting for ABS to compensate. This is the same result as a WRX STI vs a Crosstrek.
Can you guys compare a 2023 raptor with no front torsion with a gen 2 raptor with front torsion on this test? There are a lot of people who would like to see 1) the upgrades to brake modulation in the gen 3 and 2) if those updates truly negate the need for the front LSD
torsen works as an open diff if there is no traction to the wheel (the one on the roller) UNLESS it is pre-loaded... I am almost certain it was the traction control applied very slight brake to the unloaded wheel to help regain traction across the axle, the dynamics doesn't look it has a pre-loaded torsen diff.
It looks like it works like an open diff but the torque split inside the torsen is still unsymmetrical, even when one wheel is on a roller. That makes it very different from 50/50 open diff, less traction control intervention is needed.
I LOVE your slip tests on AWD vehicles.
Cool in 6 to 8 years the rest of us will see how they work. That’s how long the wait list are at my local dealerships. And let’s not talk about the dealership mark up if you can actually find one.
It’s a car… so the difference we are seeing in the bias I am almost convinced is purely weight based. What’s the weight split? Heavy front end will totally make the test work exaclty like you see it. Perhaps try it in reverse?
Someone forgot to install the rear Torsen differential.
What about the tape in the tire
I would love this AWD system in my manual 2020 370Z.
Mmmm, can we assume that the rear torsen is set to have a less locking capability than the front one??!
You guys across the pond really should practice more with the clutch 😂
Thanks for sharing 👌
Built to Rally
i wouldnt say so but its a decent efford
@@loukasantoniou8054 A change in suspension, a small lift, and rally tires and I think they can run it.
@@loukasantoniou8054it is built to rally. It's a transplant from GR Yaris
@@shattered115 also a ton of underbody protection. However you have to leep in mind, rally wheels and tyres are very expensive so is a good racing suspension from fox.
@@yucolin3876 no its not much like a subaru wrs sti or lancer evolution isnt ready for rallying despite both being homologation cars. It takes much more than a good awd system and light weight to declair a car as a rally car. You need heigher springs, offroad racing dumpers, underbody armor, rally wheels and rally tyres with more sidewall and lots of extra cooling. Add that to the fact that the gr corolla awd system has a weakpoint, (you can check another comment i ve made on this video for more details) and you realise that the gr corolla is not as rally ready as they have led you to believe. Now if someome has the resources, he cant turn it into a rally ready car, which you cant do with many other sports cars.
Can’t wait for winter in mine
Test the 2023 Outlander PHEV.
Lol crazy that it spun the tires on the diagonal test!
Love this test! Great work!
AWD is one of the best.
I'm not sure why you'd be surprised that an AWD car with front and rear LSDs would work well. That's the point.
Torsen diffs require brake modulation to be effective. Ask military humvee drivers. GR needs sway bar disconnect 😂
brake modulation or traction control intervation. thats tue for any atb, wavetrack being the best on paper with the heighest locking percentage
Another 4 door taxi with a cvt 12 speed automatic trans with a 1.5 liter engine and 4 turbos, at the modest price of $54,000, making 800 hp.
You guys need to test in lowet terrain due to huge power losses for NA motors vs supercharged/turbo.
Great video
Ok you sold me on one lol. It’s the only newer car I couldn’t keep off of my mind
Did you try the test in reverse because ratios are different maybe?
Good AWD system for sure
It's mostly the esp that boggs the engine down and since it's a manual it stalls. You should have turned the esp off.
Some basic explanation on awd systems and how diiffs work so you can better understand the gr corollla awd system and its weaknesses it has, for anyone who might be intrested. Im an engineering student so dont take my word for it, this how i undrestand it. (it may contain spelling or grammar mistakes, english is not my native languge and i hadnt had writing practice in a while.)
torsen diifs and all atb diffs like wavetruck torsen quaife diffs dont lock, they cannot lock on their own. That menas they cannot forse both tyres to rotate with the same speed, they are not speed sensitive, they are torque sensitive. Tha means they wiil force torque to they wheel with most traction by trying to "lock", as long as at least one wheel has traction. They al have small lock percentage, depending on the diff. So if one wheel has no traction, they cannot tranfer torque. In order to get unstuck, torque vectoring via braking must occur so that that the spinning wheel gets some resistance(load). And that the drawback of a torsen type. Then whats the difference from an open diff in that case. The difference is that much less braking must occur for the car to move so less brake wear. Plus the times when one wheel has zero trction are not so often. Wavetruck has a pattern where the diff gets preloaded with springs so it has higher lock percentage and it can operate even if one wheel has close to zero traction, on paper at least. The benefit of these diffs is that there are cheaper to buy and maintain and they dont wear oyt as easily. In contrast, a clutch type diff has much higher lock percentage and ots speed sencitive so it reacts to speed difference not traction difference. That diff willmtry to lock the wheels even more and will almost have them rotate with the same speed. However since it reliess o traction between clutch plates, the diffs need regular maintance and they cannot take s much load. There are two types of clutch type diffs, electronically controlled or torque vectoring diffs(with are different from torque vectroring via braking) and mechanically controlled. Both are mechanical diifs, what changes is the way the engage and the ammount of control you have over their operation. e-clutch diffs are more adaptive and they are predictive, meaning the cars traction control locks them before they need to be locked based on the driving situation where as the other are reactive meaning they react after loss of traction has already occur. Different drivers will prefer either one or the other and most times they will reject any different opinions lol, specially purists. Another drawback of the mechanical clutch type diff is that its noisy and obtrusive in everyday driving as you cannot control its locking function. Thst can be very annoying in tight slow speed manuvers like parking where the diff is locking due to great speed difference thus making manuvers difficult(unless you park by drifting your car haha). An e diff wont lock in that situation since its actuated using eletric motors controlled by the cars ecu. A tosen wouldnt lock either since as we said, its traction sensitive and not speed sensitive. A true locking differential can be any of the diffs above(open , torsen, clutch type) but with the ability to fully locked with a use of a lock ring. For example wrangler rubicons used to have a torsen read diff which could be aslo locked so being the best of both worlds. The gr corollas awd system disadvantage though lies on its center diff. While it says it has three different lock percentages, it doesnt actually lock, it does not stay locked. It uses a clutch type center diff like a haldex unit with the difference beign that the driver can manually choose the torque split, but it splits torque and it does not affect wheel speed difference between axles, much like a haldex would do automatically or much like a quattro systme with a trosen center differential would do. Thats important cause if you are to use the gr corolla for ralling or track use, after a few laps, the clutches on the cenetr diff will overheat and the diff will disengadge rendering the car FWD. Thats because the center diff is not meant to hold the selected split all the time(as i said it doesnt lock) but rather to only engage when needed. So in a case where it would need to stay "locked" all the time like in driving on a track or a dirt road for fun, the diff woud overheat unlike a torsen in an audi which is meant to have awd engaged all the time. However, toyotas decision to use torsen diffs instead of clutch type diffs, was very clever as they are more reliable and cheaper to maintain na deasier t live with in day to day driving(which is what toyota owners want) and even if you were to actually go rallying with your gr, zero traction situations would be almost zero and the torsen diff combined with the traction control system, would do just fine. desides, a rally driver is more concerned about smooth torque tranfer that can be achieved with torsen diffs than unlimited slow speed traction like in a rockcrawling situation(or that what i guess anyways).
My analysis is not perfect and maybe in complete so if someone has question i will try aswer them. For better visualisation you can visit engineering explained and weber univercity channels vids about diffs.
Why do alot Car reviewers talk like Doug Demuro now a days
Infection
THIS!
What are the the approach angles of those ramps?
The tires are really bad slipping
People don't worry about the stalls it happens to even people who daily manual, no big deal. Gotta keep them alive
I've tracked this system in the GR Yaris. there isn't much difference between the modes once the rear diff/clutch pack gets hot (about 5-10 mins of track work on a warm day - longer when it's colder outside). it then goes 100% fwd :(.
on the road there is a more noticeable difference, as you're not getting it too hot.
99% of people tracking the GR corolla hasn't had that issue
@@Olivia300zx I reminder if it’s not had the issue, or not realised? Or if it depends how hard you drive.
@simonr23 no, hot laps on a track when it's over 100 outside would make it act up if it was going to. It's not a very common issue
Rad! I want one.
Man I really want one of these. Sucks that at the toyota dealer where I work we're getting one circuit edition but are going to mark it up 12k. Screw all that
Sell it & they'll buy it. Good sales presentation...
That car is so beautiful!
Great video man. Thank you for the amount of work put into this. Please, please, please learn how to drive manual.
You guys should put in a drag strip and make an area with long strips of rollers strategically placed whereby you could do the slip tests on cars with various wheelbases. Or make them in such a way that they can be covered for testing/protection but also facilitate plowing snow and whatnot. Great video though! Interesting to see how that AWD system performed! That car is a total beast!
I want to see how the Mk8 Golf R fares
Bravo 👏 Toyota Corolla
Thumbs down on the D-4ST fuel delivery system on this engine. Instead of buying just three injectors for the port injection, you also have to buy three additional expensive injectors for the DI system. Avoid all that nonsense with a port injected engine only.
Could be the tires your using
And with all these stalls and screaming tires you see why automatic transmissions are so much better today than CVTs or even a manual. Because of the TORQUE CONVERTER.
people saying this is a good awd system must have low expectations. a system that claims to be this advanced shouldn't have struggled with the last test at all! much less slipping until the other wheel bumps the side of the roller to gain traction...
Not exactly, this is performance system, not traction system. Despite that it's doing very well, we did it with GR Yaris and there's no doubt it can make it with no traction gained from a side of a roller.
I don't you have to put on your seatbelt cause you're going to keep getting out anyway😅😅😅just a suggestion...
What a great video!!