Is My Employee Losing Me Money?! | Machine Shop Talk Ep. 109
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 кві 2024
- So you own a small shop, maybe with just one or two employees. The problem you’re running into is that while the work is getting done, it’s getting done far too slowly for your target pricing and workload. When should you be looking at the machinist, and when should you be taking a long hard look in the mirror?
On this episode of Practical Machinist’s MACHINE SHOP TALK, Ian Sandusky from Lakewood Machine & Tool is back to cover this all-too-familiar situation that a poster came to the Practical Machinist forums looking for advice on.
Is it possible to train an employee to be faster? Do machinists ever really change? How would you handle this situation?
Let us know in the comments below!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Practical Machinist is the largest and most engaged #metalworking community across the web. With more than 200,000 registered members and 400,000+ social media followers, Practical Machinist is the easiest way to learn new techniques, get answers quickly, and discuss common challenges with your peers. Visit Practical Machinist today to join the community and start connecting with your peers.
Become a Practical Machinist member (www.practicalmachinist.com/)
Like us on Facebook ( / practicalmachinist )
Follow us on Instagram ( / practicalmachinist )
Follow us on Twitter ( / prac_machinist )
Follow us on TikTok ( / practicalmachinist )
Connect with us on LinkedIn ( / practical-machinist )
Connect with Ian Sandusky on LinkedIn ( / ian-sandusky-3a223227 ) or learn more about Lakewood Machine and Tool at
lakewoodmachine.com/
sales@lakewoodmachine.com
(905) 853-6194
Instagram: / lakewoodmachine
Lakewood Machine (lakewoodmachine.com/)
#machineshop #metalworking #machining - Наука та технологія
I have hired a lot of people being in my 50’ties, having a few small 5-30 people businesses. Hiring number 1, 2,3 my best advice is that you as a owner/ founder need as soon as possible just find the best way to adapt in order to maximize the employees best sides. If number 1 is slow programming, you do it and you find something else he can do to compensate. You must adapt, because you adapt faster than your first employee because you know what’s matter. With Number 2 hire, then I always make a list of what hire 1 hates or is bad at, and then find someone that balances out those weaknesses. Its like building a football team.
Did you hire a Machine Operator, a Machinist, or a Toolmaker? Big differences between the three, also different expectations and pay scales. Operators who have piecework experience will be way faster than a one piece at a time toolmaker or machinist. Done Right is a lot different than Done Right Now.
This is a very important distinction to make, I agree!
Any tool maker or machinist worth their salt is going to look at the print and be able to assess whether it's a right or right now type of job and work accordingly.
Agree@@procyonia3654
Cost, Speed, Quality. Pick 2.
Nailed it!
Some people want it all from everyone and want not to give anyone anything.
"Woe to those who give short measure. Those who demand of other people full measure for themselves, but give less than they should when it is they who weigh or measure for others! Do these people not realize that they will be raised up? [They will be] for a mighty Day. A day when everyone will stand before the Lord of the Worlds." Quran 83:1-6
i prefer; good, cheap, fast...pick 2.
Having an employer that jumps around like a flea on fire is detrimental.
This whole video made you think your poster was my boss. 😅😅😅 All jokes aside. I am an employee that often thinks my boss expects way too much out of me. My current boss expects me to run 100% at production (on a job shops bill), yet program, setup, manage my area, help the assembly crew, and co-engineer the machines we make. I get questioned all the time why I am not keeping up. I think the area of expectation vs workers who don't want to put a fair effort is a huge problem. What I mean I places like where I work wants 1 person to do 4 completely different roles, yet thinks $38k a year is reasonable all because they can't find anyone else. It is hard for 1 person to do multiple roles when parts are manually loaded and fall off the machine between 1 and 5 minutes.
Good morning Ian. Interesting topic. I have had employees like that before. I would always put them on the most demanding and critical jobs because they never missed a beat and always made perfect parts. Time really was not an issue. I billed out every hour they had on those jobs. The easy stuff is and always was the easy stuff. I always put the guys with the least amount of experience on those jobs. Communication is the key in my book. Maybe this new employee is just being cautious and does not want to make mistakes. Some guys and gals are afraid to make mistakes. Like you said people are people, everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Great video
Back when I had staff. Basically what you said. I had one who was slower, but their quality was better, so they were put on the critical stuff. The other was faster, but quality wasnt as good, so on you go to the less critical products.
I'm in total agreement here, if you find a guy that's actually reliable and a pleasure to work with you need to find a way to work around his weaknesses. For the moment just take the guy off of programming and let him knock his setups out of the park. Then as you have time start working with him to get his programming up to your snuff.
Go home at the end of the day and not think about it??? I don't think that it possible when you're a machinist😂. Some of my best improvements came from sitting on the couch eating TV and a solution to an issue pops up in my head
Trust me it's possible, we've got those guys, but I can't wrap my head around that either. Work is my life lol
Fire him as an employee, Hire him as a contractor and pay him per job and instead of per hour. I always wished my boss would do that because I've always been able to get a job done quicker than his quotes but the people that take longer than his quotes get paid more because they have seniority and have been there longer.
Not a boss by any means. I am 2 years into an apprenticeship for a Machinist and I can absolutely relate to being that slower guy who takes his time instead of rushing. Especially when it comes to tight toleranced parts. It is a balancing act and I believe any successful shop has a mixture of people with different skillsets. I may not be the fastest person in the world (mind you im not all that experienced either) but there is a possibility I will catch errors or part deviations others do not. It takes many different skills to make a great team and great company. Great Talk Ian.
Interesting points made! I always look forward to your videos because as a new shop owner myself, it’s extremely helpful as I learn how to switch from being a machinist/programmer to business owner. Completely different mindset! I’d love to see a video come out for newer shops that are growing as to when the right time to grow/hire is, that’s something I have been struggling with a lot as a one man band with lots of work, when is it time to hire/expand capacity. I think this topic would kind of run parallel to this video and would help loads of younger shops in that 2-5 yr mark of business. Thank you for all of hard work put into these videos!
me too, im just starting out with a really good partner. Over my career as an employee, I definitely have seen the big places and small places and trends. Truthfully, i think smaller shops with fewer employees is the way to go. The days of large empires are far and few between, because in North America at least, theres not a lot of machinists in the hiring pool. I'd say, look very carefully at their history and find out what the types of places they worked at were like. It's crazy how wild west our industry is in the sense, if you're a firm hiring an accountant, you can sort of know what to expect besides behavior. In our world, there's so many different types of machinists, like Ian said, strengths and weaknesses
i was definitely the slow guy in my 18-24 ish year old apprentice era. But i was god damn accurate, i got all the hard lathe jobs and they never stress me out. But i was also at $14 an hour. Some of the hardest years of my career but so worth it. It sounds like the poster is paying this guy $25 an hour based on his years of exp, and his shop rate must be pretty low, like the $80 range. usually the equipment is old as shit and as the employee i don't want to push it too hard and break the spindle or something from going 7500 rpms all day on a 98 VF OE. I worked with this hot shot, he was fast but me being half repair guy half machinist, I would cringe seeing the old haas set to 100% rapid like as if it was a machine with brand new screws and nuts, pecking with a big insert drill when we dont have TSP (talking about my actual job not the side hustle). It's really a catch 22 right now, small shop with new equipment and $400,000 in debt, or a small shop with older equipment that owes the owner nothing but expecting a miracle... but thats my take, not trying to sound pessimistic its just the pragmatic reality in a lot of places (28yrs old, 10 years exp, job shops, only old equipment my whole career)
You’re 100% right, no option to be one men show and stay calm. Employees are checking you always, the shop must to grow to market logical balance point. The owner should be less involved in any minor issue. Every 4-6 employees need a supervisor or a”squad commander”, this person has to know what is the organizations target and be supported by the owner with the trust and tools to get there.
Great video, hit most the angles. As a small shop owner workers are hard to find. I pay 34% to the worker bill $100 per shop hour (the rest goes to the bank, insurance,lawyers, accountant, taxes..) I show all the bids and even ask for there opinion. The worker should be the next owner on my shop. Need a programmer/ operator..seeking next owner
Machinists should get an ID card with an MRR rating on it lol Metal Removal Rate like a baseball card
Well all I can say is that maybe there is no systems in place that would help things get done smoother. My current shop is struggling with this rn
> 1st.. Anyone can be trained. > I trained A NASCAR Welder to set up and make parts on A Bridgeport and A Lathe. He then Made A Ring for Him and His Girlfriend out of > Titanium Tubing. *They looked well made.. *But, I have trained many. SO for Me it is easy to See Results..!! > Just Figure Out What The Outcome Is You Want and Do IT...
When someone hires their first or only employee, the expectations will be this employee will work the same as the owner ??????
IF the new employee was that good.
They wouldn't need to work for you, they would have their own shop.
Very typical in the scenario of this video.
An owner complaining about a new employee 🙄
Let the new employee be good at a few things, instead of expecting the new employee to be a copy of yourself.
Whenever, I have worked in a 1 on 1 shop.
It has never worked out.
The expectations of what the owner of the shop wants compared to what they are prepared to pay for, never matches up.
And it's true what is mentioned in this video.
Teaching old dogs new tricks, never seems to work out ??
I had the thoughts of being paid for what I do whenever I worked in a small shop.
IF the owner wants to crack the whip.
The owner better be prepared to put their hand in their pocket and pull out some $$$$
A big problem is shop owners getting bottom of the barrel employees due to not wanting to pay for a skilled machinist.
It's just pushing buttons.
In lots of fields "optimize" is one of those things that is often done prematurely. It's possible that the incoming person was used to shops where "get a program that probably succeeds and start running it" was faster than "tune the program for speed". For one part 30 minutes programming and 30 minutes running is better than an hour programming and 10 minutes running. And if there is any risk of scrapping some parts tuning the tradeoffs change. At 100 parts the up front costs pay out more.
Oh okay I was relieved once I heard 2 employees lol. Tought they was talking about me 😂😂
Good video IAN
Thank you very much!
I have the opposite problem. I'm told by my boss to do my job in the most inefficient way possible. If I don't do it the way I'm told I will get written up. 3 write ups you are fired. I'm in the process of looking for a new job
I do what I want. If I get fired at first break I'll have a new job by lunch. I'm well known in the area and my work is highly regarded.
Nice video Ian!
Thank you very much sir!
sounds like he needs to be doing some retraining and check on all his programs and teach him as he goes. give it some time and see if he can learn to program faster. I bet he can especially if you give him some incentives to get faster explain to him that you have to be as fast as possible to keep the shop profitable so he can keep his job. probably will work out ok. he has allot of good qualities sounds like
As a representative of that "slow guy" with hard work ethic and professional easy-to-get-along-with and teachable person, I'd love to hear your thoughts and perspectives. I've lost a couple jobs because I simply wasn't "paying out" as a manual machinist in both situations. Are there things I could be doing? I see others using methods that I personally wouldn't use, but they seem to be able to pump out parts faster. Maybe I just haven't learned all those "tricks of the trade"? Anyhow I'd love to hear any advice!
Never stop learning, keep an open mind, and question everything. You said you're seeing the top guys using methods you wouldn't use. Stop and think about why those methods are working, because even if you don't use the method itself the reason it's faster can lead you to yet another method that's still faster but also works for you. Also look at your setups and order of operations. Maybe you could do things in a better order or make a tool pull double duty so you have fewer tool changes or fewer work holding changes. Even something as trivial as how you set up your workspace can have a measurable impact on your job times. And once you find ways to get faster and better, start questioning where you can improve on those. It's a never ending cycle of "how can I get better at this?" You may only speed up by a couple seconds here and there, but those turn into minutes as they add up.
I agree with managing your team to get the most production out of them.
But as a small shop you might not have enough work to put him in one place so you might just have to pay him less and telll him to pick it up... if he quits he quits...
Everyone needs to care, you cant be part of a team and just come in all the time and never care....
The sub forum post Ian is talking about is titled "Have you ever met a machinist better than you". I and many others have chimed in with our perspectives. Drop by and leave your thoughts.
Anything related to machining trade doesn't pay what it should, and there is absolutely no incentive or future ant most places. I personally don't work any harder than I want to.
I hear you, but it really sucks that it’s gotten to this point.
I have found that if you excel in the manufacturing trade, the money comes. If you’re not making the top of the pay scale then you either have been in the trade long enough or you aren’t worth the top of the pay scale. ,
@@michaelcole4733 ehh... I'd argue the money doesn't 'come' rather one has to chase for it themselves. Most companies are unwilling to give large raises until the employee is already looking to leave, which by then is already too late. There's a reason why the modern 401k-based smart early career decision is to jump ship every couple years.
@@agg42 I’m speaking from my personal experience and friends that I’ve worked with. I’ve also been on the other side as a manager, I quickly realized when I found talent and always tried to get those guys more money quickly. It’s much cheaper to spend the money on a good machinist than it is to sort through a bunch and train them.
If you're the owner of a shop that has less than 10 employees and you don't know exactly what's going on in the shop, you shouldn't own a business. I see it over and over again.
Machinists that open their own shops tend to be more focused on having the machines and tools they want instead of running a profitable business. Instead of building a business,
they simply build a job for themselves. The economics of a contract machine shop are not all that complicated but, especially in America, there's a lot less profit margin than you think.
Probably at your last job you were hounded about getting more done and you swore to yourself that if you ever had your own shop you would never do that to your employees.
It's not until you get on the other side of the fence that you realize how wrong your assumptions were. Now you're losing money because you hired a highly skilled person and you want
to show him respect by not badgering him all the time. It won't work. Highly skilled machinists with decades of experience tend to strive for the perfect when all you need is good enough.
They'll put extra time into a part to ensure it comes out right at the end. This most often translates into tightening up tolerances so that the stack up of error between ops does not cause
a problem. A hole diameter in the part might have a +/-.010" tolerance but they'll hold it to +.001"/-0" so that it can be used as a locator on a subsequent operation. It doesn't seem like much
of a difference in cycle time but seconds add up to minutes and minutes add up to hours. If you're going to own a shop you need to think of it like driving a bus that constantly pulls to the
right whenever you let go of the steering wheel. You can do this and still be respectful of your employees' talents but you have to have this approach from Day 1. You can't make this change
downstream and not expect some people to be upset about it. Just remember that it's your neck on the line here. The bank won't come take your employee's house if your business fails.
You'll be homeless and your employee will go to work somewhere else.
Love your point about leaning into people's strengths and minimize exposure to their weaknesses!
Sounds like the owner needs to get a seat of the AI programming for his employee
If the old guy can do it faster and the new guy can't do it as fast. It's time to look at your processes and documentation. I've experienced this myself, regardless of how much I know, if there's a little nuanced trick to a setup. Maybe how to do it more efficiently, it should be well documented as to remove that as a variable.
Well if he learned in a time doesnt matter shop, explain when in rome do as the romans do, and you arent at your old place
Show them what they need to do to meet your goals.
If that doesnt work, start finding work that has to be perfect, feed him work thats suited to his talents
Raise your shop rate.
I got called out for taking to long to program, I'm 21, I didn't go back to college for one semester cause I hated it, went to school to program mills that never gets used. A 25 year old dude quit after they refused to give him a raise I think he has like three kids which is wild and I took over on the cnc lathe. I'm starting to get the hang of it now after 6 months of on and off but it was badddd when they first started to give me parts. They just let me run wild cause there is on 1 other dude than me that can program an he uses GIBBS. Lots of learning experiences and UA-cam love this trade. gang gang
I agree with what Ian said but never that straight forward , the guys on the section i run i give them the parts they are confident doing, that makes the parts a quick turn around, i only have 1 skilled guy and one operator now, but next week i will be giving a 10 off to the skilled guy he does not want to do because its an 11"X12" aluminium billet, i can turn the parts in 5 days its a proven program but i know he will slow it down smaller cuts etc not to milk it but because he is not confident because material isn't cheap and its big, i am guessing 8-10 days, Only reason he is doing it, is we have loads of inconel 718 to do 2-5 offs and that material is expensive as well, i will just get on and do it and get through them in 2 weeks he will be nervous doing them and take about 4 weeks , he wont lose money on the parts he is doing but profit wont be as high, but i also know me turning the higher value parts is more profit and will outweigh what he loses . and also just to say, any material i cut once the 1st one is done i am happy to leave it cutting and get on and do other things my guy has a finger on reset and a lot of guys do. in way when work is taken on and priced and delivery dates set who is doing the work is never thought about, its just cycle time. When i quote i don't quote on my times i quote on the guys i work with and with guys i have worked with before.
At least half of the workers in any kind of job I have had were slow, zero pride and zero shame.
Small run tight tolerance work is all I do. I also don't ever want to hire anyone beside my wife
This to me sounds like a quoting problem from the shop owner. Just because they programmed it and saved 23 minutes doesn't me it'll work real world. Are the speeds and feeds accurate,? What type or material? The right tooling available?
I’m literally quoting a problem from the shop owner lmao - check out the thread in the description for yourself!
Will do! I started out sweeping floors in a small cnc shop and worked my way up to now being a multi axis programmer. I've seen alot of the ins and outs, ups and downs in mom and pop shops and big companies. Great video man. @iansandusky417
Was he always slow? Did he slow down over time?
External issues? Problems at home with money, honey, booze, drugs?
Does he spend more time looking at his Iphone than the machine?
Oddly enough, I got called on the carpet while working for one of the biggest defense contractors for getting a job done too fast!
They wanted to know why it took me 5-6hrs to do a job when the process calls for 8hrs?
Was I circumventing the process written by an engineer?
I was working at McDonnell-Douglas in Tulsa and had the same thing happen, only it was the other operators telling me how the cow eats the cabbage. Back then, every job had a ticket, and each step in the process had a time card. You know the old punch cards. So each competency would pull their card out of the packet - and you'd hoard them. Some days, you didn't see a lot of work, so you get the card from the work you did do, and grab some of your stash cards to make up the difference between what was expected (typically 6 hours for an 8 hour shift), and you'd be off the hook.
We didn't do it that way at Convair in San Diego; different time-keeping. You just punched in on a job, and punched out when you stopped working on it, and that was that.
If you think they are too slow youre wrong. Look at your shop : is it clean and tidy place. Do your emplyee loose a lot of time for serching tools ? Are you cheap on endmills and holders ? If you have a plant you want to grow, do you pull the stem to grow faster or you give em what they need to ? We are not slaves, we are human with quality and also default.
You’re not wrong! That was my advice in the second half of the video as well.
@@iansandusky417 I admit that the title of the video triggered me and I commented before listening to the video. I didn't mean to be rude to you! Great channel btw !
The owners story doesn't make sense, if the employee programmed the part with the same cam software and tool library with the speeds and feeds already set there is no way he is going to take a part from 30mins to 7mins. Maybe the employee is slower but this doesn't make sense.
Unless he's programming in a bunch of stops and then turning his rapids way down, no, it doesn't make sense.
Yeah I’m not too sure to be honest - I always just try to take the story at face value because either way, it’s an interesting and common scenario broadly to take a look at anyway!
Yep, buy a robot and make more with less recurring cost.
You can program and machine efficiently but you can't communicate effectively.
I’d agree with that advice - this wasn’t my scenario though, this was a forum member.
@@iansandusky417 I understand it wasn’t your scenario and I wasn’t directing my comment at you. My apologies if it came off that way. I started off as a helper a year ago, moved up to operator/setup pretty quick, and I’ve been apprentice programmer for a few months now in a fast-paced high-volume machine shop making components for rail cars. I was in retail/sales with a degree in music before I got into machining. This video especially hit home with instances I’ve faced along my journey of learning to become a better, more efficient machinist and with how I’ve observed rather odd communication too. I think this video raises a great point about how machine shops in essence all do the same thing but each machine shop has a different pace and culture.
Good employees are found, not trained. Dogs and slaves get trained
Sometimes
The owner THINKS they can do it at a certain speed
Or that it SHOULD only take x y z long
Machining is monkey see monkey do, if you can do it faster, show me and ill do the same and remember for next time
I can hog .350/side of a shaft or a big slug on the vertical all day long
But give me something with a sketchy setup and your simply not going to get the removal rate your expecting
Ever seen a 2000lb part thrown from a lathe?
I have, not mine thank god.
You may find someone is too slow, replace them, only to have someone crash your machine or scrap a part trying to push somethig too hard.
Side note, once he changed that program, all responsability transfers to him, something comes out bad its on the guy that wanted it done his way
Try. Running. Your. Own shop in the UK! We are done here!
Yak yak yak yak more yak