Is Your Shop Ready for High-End Machines? | Machine Shop Talk Ep. 110
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- Everyone who has been in a shop with older equipment has looked with envy at those fancy new machines that can slice, dice, and do everything but make your coffee with full automation. But when it comes to actually buying new machines for your shop, is there such thing as “TOO NICE” or “TOO EXPENSIVE?!”
On this episode of Practical Machinist’s MACHINE SHOP TALK, Ian Sandusky from Lakewood Machine & Tool is back to cover a post from a Practical Machinist forum member who is struggling with the best way to invest in their shop, without making themselves overburdened by payments.
When is it time to upgrade, and what should that upgrade look like? Is it possible to OVER-invest in your machine shop? We’ll be getting into that - and more!
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Honestly, a job shop with a CMM/probe arm can be a superpower. Learning how to use it for reverse engineering, setting up automated probing cycles, and market that level of QC on your parts or farm out QC services to other shops. Give you a solid upgrade right away and supports your growth later into multi axis stuff. You can only cut what you can measure.
I pretty much only do work for Xometry but I completely agree. Getting my CMM opened up about as many jobs as getting 5 axis did for my little 1 man shop.
I think you forgot to about the programming side of 5 axis machine. If your programmer takes a day and a half to program for a repair job, you're not buying the right machine.
That’s a very good point, and you are absolutely correct!
TRUE RABBIT TRUE
CNC is the solution. Now find the problem to solve. If you don’t have the work to put on it don’t buy it. Buying a machine & chasing the work has put a lot of shops out of business. I’ve owned my shop for 42 years. We have always bought equipment for work we have for paying customers
good video ian..thanks for your time
The proximity to customer thing is very real as well. We have a very large structural fabricator that is 4 min away from the shop that we frequently do small (between 5-20pc) runs of fairly large plates. We can currently run 1 at a time in our largest machine. I was just asked to quote a lot of like 300 of these plates. It would take forever to run 1 at a time, but on the other hand its SIMPLE work that pays pretty decent and Id hate to turn it down. I know these guys have a ton of work as well and its not like Id have to worry about competing against any other shop thats more than an hour away. (Most of these parts are 400# a pc so shipping would kill any profitability for these other shops.) But what the heck would I do with a Bridge or Gantry mill if they closed up shop? My normal work is smaller fixturing and custom tools...
3 Vmc's,1 lathe,Edm machine,Flat grinder,universal sharpener,two 4 axis tsudakomas,one 3+2 nikken,Mitutoyo and Asimeto measuring equipment,500 pcs solid carbide mills,110 pcs reamers.....not bad for far😊Everything is payed nothing on credit or lease.Next will be Horizontal vmc
You need to consider lead time on machine delivery
I have 6 Haas machines., 4 Mills & 2 lathes. They fit the work I do and seen in my area for the 19 years I've been in business. I don't have a 5axis. I have a 3+2 VF3ss with a TRT160 on it. 1 or 2 Rfq's have come in for full blown 5 axis work. Many salesmen have knocked on the door with their pitch. Buy my brand and the work will come. Nope only the repo man will come when I can't make the payments.
Hear hear! 🙌🏻 same boat man!
Haas isn't accurate enough for a lot of the 5 axis work out there.
@@joshualegault1095I’ve heard this for sure - though no personal experience!
Interesting question, I tend to turn this a bit around and see how sensitive my company is for different changes before deciding, you know are my income sturdy, and I mean sturdy not steady. If you loose your biggest client , or your 5-10 smallest customers, can you still carry the cost of the new investment. If you loose your two best people, are the “top of the line” features still of value, because we all know it takes some competence to fully utilize advanced features. What volume is the market growth / opportunity you buying the machine(s) for, meaning if you don’t get the client you have in mind, can you expect to land a similar one. Sensitivity analysis is a well known business analysis, but for me I have always done it to mentally be aware of my weak points before investing, because you never know the future.
This is a FANTASTIC viewpoint, and one that just about everyone should take into consideration - thank you for sharing the perspective!
It's called backlash. Loose ballscrews can be rebuilt at a fair price.
Almost every salesman I have met is quick to tell you how their automated 5 axis robotic $750,000 50 pallet pool machine is the right application for my business. The thing is it might not be. the good ones who care enough to understand my business rather than be the slick used car salesman trying to pull a fast one are the ones I develop relationships with and the ones I end up buying from. The work I do unfortunately does not lend itself to a pimped out automated machine that will tie my shoes for me in the morning. Some day it might, but today is not that day. I like to maximize what I have before going down that road. The salesman doesn't care when your 10 year $4500 per month payments kick in. You have to have your best interest at heart, even if that means not making a random salesman "happy". Some of them will say whatever they need to to make a sale.
Nice Video Ian. Very interesting topic. My strategies for machine replacement is not so much about latest and greatest but more about improving my capabilities and reducing setup times. I am a one man shop so the more I can accomplish with newer or more automated machines helps improve my efficiency. I believe if you have work that fits the machines you already have there is no real reason to upgrade until the machine starts giving you problems. Then it’s time to
invest in new or newer equipment.
Thank you very much sir! Absolutely - if what you’re using makes sense for the work you have, there’s no sense in spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on new machinery to do the same stuff, so long as the maintenance is up to date and the work is steady - it’s better sometimes in that case to just expand with more of the same capabilities to increase capacity!
I think considering what options to purchase with a machine is important. Such as getting a hsk spindle then having to purchase all the tooling vs cat40.
This is something that’s good to consider. I kind of missed out on this process when I bought a bigger lathe and got sticker shock with the jaws and tool holding I had to put into it! 😂
My old employers main customer was e one a firetruck building firm,they bought a five axis Haas and expected me to run it,however they wouldn't invest in Mastercam to program efficiently so basically all it was used for was indexing and 3d work,total waste of potential
Wow that’s penny smart dollar dumb for sure - it’s just a glorified 3+2 at that point!
I’m probably way off to most shops we only run the old machines because they are cheap to buy. The reason is that we use these machines in the production of the machines and equipment we build and a .001-.002 +/- deviation between parts is of no problem to most parts which are usually one off anyway
That makes sense though, if you’re not doing super tight stuff - there’s no real reason to use a super high end machine for sure. We save our newer, nicer machines for the precision stuff and throw the looser tolerance stuff in the beaters as well!
I wish my shop was ready for the crappy machines I have let alone the ones I wish I could afford.
Me too man - but it’s better than being a million dollars in debt for more machine than you needed!
@@iansandusky417true, but you could look like a baller for a minute on UA-cam before the repo man comes.
@@marksanders4815😂😂😂
Also more money than brains
I don't like debt
I think I might be allergic as well!
I don't buy machines unless they can also make coffee, that's just stupidity.
Right? That’s the true definition of a multi-tasking machine.
Use the old machine as long as its making money but neu machines and technology pays for it self in no time
Yep, still got my 90’s beasts churning out good parts daily!
I personally find a 5ax machine to require less brain power than designing, manufacturing, and indicating in fixtures to suite a 3axis machine. It's easier and faster to make parts in tolerance on a 5ax, which moves the Invoicing closer to the PO.
That’s a very good point for sure!
My opinion is every machineshop needs a 5 Axis. Even if its a trunnion on a table. Being able to orient parts to different angles can save so much time if a part is more than 3 ops
I’m very much in agreement - that will be my next purchase for sure
@@iansandusky417 if you can swing it purchase a Nikken. They CMM every rotary table. I purchased a brother with one and did not realise they did that and it made dialling in cor 10x easier machine now cuts with in a few tenths flat to flat with no adjustments
There is the sad fact that like CNC vs manual, the time is or has come that you need the value a 5 axis has, It is also my next purchase.
@@iansandusky417 The question is, with all the posts on PM, do you dare buy a Haas UMC? If not what 5 axis have you been eye balling?
@@user-kp6ee6wv1b definitely not my first pick at the moment - I know people who have good success with them but I don’t think it’s for me. I’m a bit up in the air at the moment whether to go German or Korean, I’ve got a lot of homework to do!
Could you machine a bell housing and engine mounts for a 07k engine swap for a 1984 Porsche 944?
Whats your twitter