How Did the Romulans Lose to a Supernova?
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2023
- Romulus was destroyed by a the Supernova of its primary sun. This was referred to as Hobus in some stories (Online and Countdown Comics) while Picard confirmed it to be the Sun of the Romulan system. This led to the loss of the Star Empire but how? Why did they not see this coming as an interstellar power with multiple planets and starships at their command? Let's look at the lore we have from the books and shows so far.
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This Video is for critical purposes with commentary. - Ігри
First it was Praxis which crippled the Klingon empire and then a supernova that crippled the Romulans. Both events benefited that federation. In the words of Garak:
“I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences”
Section 31, perhaps?
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."
-- Ian Fleming
@@daveh7720 Would the 3rd be crippling the Borg Transwarp network or The Prophets deleting an entire Dominion armada?
@@gaskamp2crippling the borg network.
@@dswynne I had assumed it was over mining that did away with Praxis but it could very well be Section 31
I think people forget Shinzon and the Remans assassinated the ENTIRE Romulan leadership except those who were working with Shinzon during Nemesis. So I guarantee this played a big factor in the canon as even the competent leaders were more than likely killed and the ones who may have survived were branded traitors for working with Shinzon.
I remember
I prefer the stupid writers theory. It is more consistent.
And yet, governments have succession rules and plans for when the government gets decapitated. Plus, I don't think Shinzon spent months or years tracking down the government officials who weren't in the Senate chamber, (like, I'm guessing their Executive and Judicial departments were still around; likewise, any scientific or military leadership was probably essentially intact). What I'm saying is, there were plenty of people to replace the Senators, and most of the institutional knowledge was still in place.
AFAIK, the Romulan Senate was reconvened before the movie ended, (within a month at most after the assassination), so it was a shock but recovered from. (And there was one Senator who survived the attack, so if SOMEHOW only Senators knew about this problem, tal'Aura was still there.)
Were there competent leaders in the Romulus??? that entire society was built on fear, suspicion, backstabbing, and paranoia.
@@ignaciomoreno9655 It is the only valid theory. Everything else is just retcon and cope. Hell, the subspace off screen "explanation" sounds just like the ridiculous hyperspace "explanation" for how Starkiller Base's superweapon could travel so fast to other star systems. Talentless hacks make up ludicrous garbage as if it was magic because it looks cool to them, actual fans call out their BS, then someone poops out off screen retcons to try to justify the bad writing.
I like the way the the STO explanation works: The weapon that destroyed the star was composed of three elements: trilithium, which, as we know from Generations, induces supernovas. Kemocite, which we know from DS9 is an explosive booster. And protomatter, which we know from STII and STIII, is highly unstable, and can propagate shockwaves at FTL speeds. The genesis device, as an example. Combining all of this, you get a boosted supernova with a FTL shockwave.
Also the Trilithium in Generations was stolen from the Romulans. so we know they were working with it.
@@jasongillespie8933 Good point. And yeah, after that story mission in STO, I started referring to the Romulus system as the largest crime scene in known space.
STO makes more sense than anything in current Star Trek.
Kemocite was also a principle component of the Xindi weapon in Enterprise
This probably makes the the most sense out of all possible explanations, because as other commenters had mentioned, it fits nicely with the post 2009 cannon. The Romulans, in some strange new push to further expand there tech beyond it's already very great limits, blew themselves up in the process. They had already mastered harnessing the power the of a black hole more or less, had significantly advanced cloaking tech, and were experimenting with interphase generator tech they derived from the Klingons (which was known to backfire and be incredibly risky). It figures they started to mess around the internal chemistry of stars and thought they could handle it since they had already mastered artificial singularity tech of mini black holes. They thought they could prevent the formation of a black hole and keep the stars they experimented on stable as they worked. Well like there interphase generator experiments... they weren't exactly correct and the results were catastrophic.
While I have many complaints about Star Trek Online, given what they had to work with, I think they did an excellent job with making the FTL supernova seem less idiotic.
The reason the empire fell is simple:
"All roads lead to Romulus."
The state was heavily centralized. Loosing the capital meant loosing most institutions. Most ability to keep the conquered worlds in check.
Also, for all we know the "secret ingredient" in singularity drives could only be mined on Romulus or Remus. Meaning they might have lost their ability to make and maintain their existing ship models.
And yet, every inhabited planet in their system must have some level of local government / administration. Even in highly centralized countries such as France, there is no way all departments would fall into disarray if Paris would be suddenly gone. Belgium had no functioning government for almost 2 years in 2010/11 and nobody would have noticed had it not been a news topic.
@@KAMiKAZOW The book and comics showed what happened.
The instant the worlds were threatened, all local government bolted on the spot, once they realised it was real.
That caused a power vacuum on all worlds, as the people started bickering with each other. The more the worlds deteriorated, the worse the population got.
Picard was often dealing with what Turkey went through after those earthquakes.
The problem is really that stars live and die on a scale of millions of years, and the fact that Romulus' star would soon go nova should have been easily detectable thousands of years before they even settled the planet. It should have been screened out during the initial selection process if the Romulans were remotely rational. Frankly, your species dying out because you knowingly placed your all-important capital on a doomed planet is natural selection.
The real answer is that J. J. Abrams couldn't be bothered to do a 5-second Google search to check if his big, dumb idea made any sense. He wanted a planet to explode, and he didn't care how it happened, or what the implications for future Trek canon would be.
@KAMiKAZOW The thing is though no-one destroyed Brussels. So even if the government didn't work the overall State bureaucracy was still functioning. In fact most State bureaucracies work reasonably well without politicians issuing orders. At least in the short-term.
I think Romulus and the Empire could be loosely likened to the Balkans.
In Tito's Yugoslavia as was, the Tito regime ruled with an iron fist. When that regime passed, the region only took a few years to descend into chaos.
More fictionally, in the Bond movie Goldeneye Sean Bean planned to use an EMP pulse to wipe all the computers in London.
As so many political, governmental and financial institutions are concentrated there, it would deal a devastating blow to the UK.
By contrast, wiping Washington DC off the map wouldn't be a knock-out blow to the USA. As it has a far more decentralised structure in all spheres.
@@KAMiKAZOW Well, the thing is, Belgium has 6 governments: 1 federal that is notoriously difficult to form a coalition for, and 5 regional: Flemish, Walloon, Brussels, French community and German Community. And then 3 Communal Commissions that can act like a government: French, Flemish and Mutual.
Belgium is one of the least centralized western democratic governments, which in the past because of 'Waffle-iron politics' resulted in hilarious fiasco's like the Métro Léger de Charleroi.
In my best ancient aliens impression:
ICONIANS.
Maybe it was intended as a reference to the ancient eruption of Vesuvius? The Romulans are loosely based on the Romans after all, yet a natural disaster practically wiped one of its great cities, Pompeii, off the map 🤔
My head canon sort of falls in line with the whole "romulan classified experiment" idea - romulans utilize their own sun as a means by which to generate micro singularities to power their fleets warp cores. Continued usage of this means for warp core development eventually affects the star, speeding up its development into a supernova, however as this was used to construct warp cores (singularities) the eventual supernova would blast throughout subspace. The volcano red matter was meant to prevent this (best result) or at least reverent the supernova from a subspace one to a regular explosion.
The ensuing fallout would eventually see the talshiar backed "free state" rise to power as that faction was able to secure dikithium sources within the fractured empire, allowing the free state to construct more "standard" dilithium stabilised warp cores to form a new fleet instead of the continued sausage of now defunct singularity powered warbirds (also would indicate why romulan ships in the 31st century were impacted by "the burn")
I like it. Well done.
Why did the race that uses black holes in every one of their capital ships need to wait for Spock to come save them with a black hole?! Lens Flare! That's why.
I was wondering that through out the entire movie.
Been my question too.
Damn Iconains and their legions of proxy forces, including but not limited to:
>The Heralds and associated constructs
>Elachi
>Solenane
>Dewans
>Blue Gill parasites and victims
>Vaadwaur
>Some Kazon sects hired by the Vaadwaur
>The Tal Shiar who subcontracted Hirogen and Orion mercenaries
>House Torg via Tal Shiar agents
>Species 8742 gaslit into starting a race war in the Alpha Quadrant
>Elements of the Romulan Star Navy
>Alternate timeline with the Hireacrhy taking the Vaadwaur's place as their Delta Quadrant enforcers
>Different alt timeline with the Dominion joining forces with the Iconians to stop the Sphere Builders.
>Said Dominion-Iconian Alliance's Jem'hadar, Hurq, and Felk'ri shock troops
yeah i hope if we do get that "ST Legacy" series, they actually explore the current state of the "Romulan Free State" along with the Supernova and all that lore.
one of the biggest disappointment in Picard was how that plot hook was just dropped with the changes in staff.
The biggest disappointment about the Picard show was the Picard show.
Here's my .02 credits:
1) the Romulans have 'the Artefact', a dormant Borg cube and are doing frantic research on it.
2) The Romulans are aware of the Borg Transwarp Network.
I hypothesize that the Romulans were trying to build a covert, probably cloaked, facility around Hobus that would give them access to the Transwarp Conduit Network. Using the star's energy, as the Borg did with their Nexus facility, to power their experimental facility caused a cascade instability in the star resulting in its untimely descent into a Supernova. The presence of the Transwarp Conduit Network facility allowed the Supernova to funnel into Subspace and propagate at FTL speeds. Following already bored Transwarp Conduits allowed the spread of the destruction to critical points in Romulan space, devastating critical colonies and infrastructure.
I always thought in my mind that the game Bridge Commander was canon. The enemy race in it created a weapon to make stars go super Nova trying to start a war.
The timeframe worked. The idea that even though you uncovered the threat, it somehow led to the weapon being used on the Romulans by someone.
I'll be honest, the idea of something being behind the crippling of galactic powers (Qo'Nos's moon, the Hobus hypernova, the Burn etc) alongside the Milky Way being the only galaxy with pan galactic barriers all bending together into a 60 yr long story arc to finally reveal the real enemy (a sentient trans galactic psychic tribble, please) would wrap things up nicely before I die.
Section 31 up to no good
I'll happily take a pan-galactic psionic Tribble as the culprit. It would be the perfect payoff to the idiocy.
I blame species 10c.
I believe some of it was the iconians or soemthing along those lines, according to STO.
jesus obviously the tirbble thing is a joke, but i sure hope the rest of this comment is too.
My headcanon has always been that Section 31 did it. It ties into the plotline in DS9 about them preparing for the UFP/Romulan cold war in the wake of the Dominion War (as the only two major powers left), and the installation of Koval as a mole on the Continuing Committee. If Section 31 was willing to genocide the Founders with bioweapons, blowing up a star is of no concern to them.
This was always my head canon too. This could easily be the basis for a new series where Star Fleet learns the truth and realizing how off the rails Section 31 has gone decides it time to take them down once and for all. Think a high level spy thriller with rival intelligence agents from Star Fleet Intelligence, Section 31, remnants of the Tal Shiar, and others going at it. It would be perfect for the return of characters like Bashir, Garak, Worf, and others.
@@Wilahelm2 It also helps explain how Picard (a well-respected if maverick Captain/Admiral) got sidelined so hard for trying to help the Romulans. It wasn't part of the plan.
@@TheMarowian Yeah. Having Section 31 behind it solved all the issues. They have access to enough tech that they could come up with a device that could cause star to go nova early and spread through sub-space. Thier mole in the Romulan government was in the perfect position to hamstring any response from the Romulan government. They had enough pull with the Star Fleet brass for their help in winning the Dominion War that no one from the Federation would do anything. Picard and Spock making such a hard push to save the Romulans was a wild card that probably made them speed up thier plans and why the nova going off took everyone by surprise.
There was actually a book on that i belive
@@justin3415 Interesting - do you happen to know what it was?
As a lover of reading, I didn’t even know about these Picard books. They’re in my cart now. Then again, these days I’ve primarily been focusing on Light Novels, manga, and books via my Kindle Unlimited subscription. Thanks for alerting me to the existence of these Picard books.
I actually do hope it was the Iconians. Would be neat to have them in a series.
Yeah I actually liked that plot line better. It was a clever use of Captain Picard's mistake in letting Tasha Yar return in "Yesterday's Enterprise."
Thanks for all your fun videos, Rick. I know this is all about fictional things, but it's a nice escape from the worries of life. You bring storytelling to the nerdy masses. Thanks, dude.
Also in Star Trek Online it was all Sela's fault, her backstabbing during the evacuation of Iconia (due to timey wimey temporal stuff as always) left a grudge that lasted an incredibly long time, and the Romulans would be the first to suffer when the Iconians returned.
Really? Lols. Good job Sela.
In Star Trek: Nemesis, Shinzon assassinated the entire Romulan Council with the Thaleron weapon. It could be that those he assassinated were the more levelheaded and capable members of the Praetorate, and those that replaced them when Shinzon was defeated were less reliable and shady. A weaker praetorate made it possible for the factions wanting to experiment with their sun to proceed with their plans more easily.
Keep in mind, it's entirely possible that both the STO and canon explanations are true. There's no reason why the device mentioned in Dark Veil could not be the same device deployed by Taris in STO. It may be a device reverse-engineered from Iconian technology at Taris's request (or rather, at the Iconians' request via Taris.)
I'd actually like that. I know STO can never be fully canon but any time the two can line up better I'm all for it, and I DO find the whole "ancient precursors returning from banishment" plot to be a lot of fun. It's not the most overused plot in Sci-fi and any time you have to force the good guys into an unconventional solution, it's far more interesting than simply "we banned together and simply beat them."
Well, except for the ending to Mass Effect 3, but eh, every story trope has examples of being executed poorly.
I agree... I like how STO connected all the fun little ribbons of the shows. The Iconian gateways, the Solanae, Elachi, and so on. If they wanted to retire the franchise for good, the Iconians would be an epic way for it to go out.
I still prefer the non-canon Star Trek Online explanation of the supernova being triggered ahead of time by an external device that the Iconians had. Not sure if that was removed from game or not since I haven't played in years. That storyline was more of a whole "you got mad at your home being destroyed by Iconians, but you are the one who went into the past and started the war with the Iconians so it's really karma." Some of the stories are far-fetched in that game but it's not canon so it doesn't matter lol...
The Iconians caused it
STO is the best explanation
I firmly stand behind the Hobus scenario as the true canon.
I always thought they made it too complicated. It should have been much simpler for say a nearby star, Hobbs went supernova and remnants of that moved into the Romulan system and swept through and destroyed Romulus and Remus. That could allow for why there was time for the Federation to act and try to evacuate as many as possible. Whether or not the supernova in question was a natural event, or triggered through artificial means could be still up in the air. The idea of the energy of the supernova moving through subspace seems a bridge too far. Also, another stupid element introduced in ST Picard is why would the Romulans or the Zhat Vash engineer the destruction of the Utopia Plniatia shipyards that were building the evacuation fleets to save as many Romulana as possible to create a movement in the Federation to massively restrict all forms of artificial life. They could have waited longer and millions more would have been saved. Anyway, the entire thing was stupid and seemed like lazy writing. Since the idea of the supernova came out of the movies you could argue JJ Abrams' projects have screwed up Star Trek and Star Wars and left others to pick up the pieces.
This isn't the first time. The explosion that kicks off Star Trek 6 (to the point where every damn explosion on a sci-fi show had to have that double ring effect - as if explosions in space would be rings instead of spheres) and tossed Captain Sulu and the Excelsior around also moved faster than light (in this case, because it was dilithium blowing up). And that was long before JJ got his grubby mitts on Star Trek.
The Supernova somehow moving faster than light so that when Spock arrived to drop a black hole as a gravitational tide-break, the wave front of the nova hadn't only passed that point, it had reached and erased Romulus is a pretty typical Star Trek plot point.
Star Trek, in spite of its love for technobabble, frequently (usually) plays very fast and loose with actual science to set up the morality play that is the point of the story.
Obviously the answer to the question posed by the video is "bad writing." Everything else is putting more thought into it than the writers did.
Ya, honestly even if the third season of Picard was better it was still built on a foundation of two super crappy seasons. The bar was just that low people would accept anything only mildly crappy. Nothing good has come from it or STD.
This is an issue which pervades popular science fiction. The writers look for something that sounds cool, and ignore even the most basic Google-level research. All it would take is such research, perhaps a few lines of dialogue (even a short scene would be nice) and suddenly you can have these sort of events that make much more in-universe sense. Don't get me wrong... I am totally along for the ride in Trek and many other franchises. But as a very avid amateur astronomer... I really do get frustrated with this sort of thing.
I agree. The subspace acceleration thing also falls apart when you realise that the inverse square law is in fact an important thing that means no matter what "speed" it's going at, space is just so damn big that it would spread out to nothing, even moving at warp velocities.
“I suggest you don’t worry about this sort of thing and just enjoy yourself. That goes for you all too!” -Basil Exposition, “Austin Powers and the Spy Who Shagged Me.”
Yes, it would have been nice if they had bothered a bit with plausibility. Trek even had science advisors whos entire work seems to have been ignored.
@@comentedonakeyboard This “science advisor” thing is something I hear a lot and if it’s true then someone got cheated because Star Trek’s conception of science has always been laughable. Frankly I’m sick of the “science fiction” moniker. This isn’t science. It never has been. It’s time to move past this misconception so we can all go back to watching movies again.
@@Shapes_Quality_Control if i remember corectly Andrew Bormanis started as science advisor and then changed to writer, because he was frustrated no one ever utilised his advice.
I've always liked the explanation given in Star trek: Online
Say what you will about the iconian return storyline,
The concept of a Secret Romulan Experiment conducted on a star in Romulan Space (But not the Romulus Star Itself) Certainly explains why noone was prepared for it.
An FTL Explosion would wipe out all local communications in mere moments, and the blast would reach nearby systems Long before the visual indicators were observable.
As for iconian involvement, I personally loved the idea that they dangled a shiny new technology infront of the Tal'Shiar that Would give them an "Advantage" But it was a technology designed to Blow up in the Tal'Shiar's Face
The Mutual Revenge storyline is Equal parts believable and Tragic and i think STO did really well with that story
I think this is sort of the angle they may be going for in the Picard books too, basically this minus the Iconian element.
According to the cannon established in the startrek online game, it's ALL Picard's fault. How? Well, it goes back to the TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" (Season 3; Episode 15) in which a Romulan weapons test created a rift and thrust the Enterprise-D into an alternate reality where the Federation and Klingons are at war. Suddenly the Enterprise-C shows up badly damaged and missing their Chief Tactical Officer, yet in this timeline, Natasha Yar is still alive since she wasn't killed by the Skin of Evil. Guinan tells Picard that "something is wrong" and he is made aware that Yar is supposed to be dead and that it had to do with the Enterprise-C. Yar volunteers to go back with the Enterprise-C since she's supposed to die anyways, yet DOESNT. She ends up captured and ends up the concubine of a Romulin and gives birth to a daughter, Sela. Sela ends up becoming a high-ranking member of the Tal Shiar. In Startrek Online, she accompanies the players character and goes back in time more than 100k years on the planet Iconia and it's revealed that when the planet is attacked, Sela betrays the Iconions, which infuriates their leaders and in an act of vengeance, they destroy the Hobis star, which causes the supernova and ends up destroying Romulus........so....it all goes back to Picard and I was REALLY hoping that they would have had Picard "fix" this with Q in Startrek Picard since the destruction of Romulus and Vulcan are ultimately his fault
Anytime I hear of a star blowing up I'm always reminded of Rodney from Stargate Atlantis accidentally blowing up a solar system
Well, there are 2 parts to the Destruction of The Star was because of the Iconian that didn't went Extinct. If anything even from the Non Canon from Star Trek Online. I found the Story Arc 100 times better then the Story's from Star Treks Picard and Discovery combined. But the Destruction of The Star was an amplified effort from the Iconians.
The supernova is one of the few plot elements i'd honestly just take straight out of trek. They've done nothing interesting with the romulans since it happened and it would potentially stop the second event i'd just snip out of canon, being the synth attack on mars. I can't believe even a secretive sect of the tal shiar would be so braindead stupid as to destroy the only chance most of the romulan population had to escape.
In an RP I run, we used the idea of subspace. We had the Breen being the culprits. We also didn't totally destroy Romulus, which has actually left us with more refugees. That's the main plot of our current adventures as we help resettle those displaced.
I like the romulan government keeping the whole thing a secret, but I also think that Romulus as the capital of the Star Empire was that pivotal to the stability of the empire, like Ancient Rome.
Those starship glory shots are amazing!
I’m sure I’m missing something, but why did the Romulans need the Federation to evacuate Romulus instead of their own fleet of massive warbirds?
I'm sure the Tal Shi'ar and the Romulan Military both thought that letting civilians onto their ships was a security risk. It seems on-theme for Romulans to be so paranoid as to rather let the Empire die than reveal small secrets.
Cuz the writers needed edgelord "you just don't get me, mom" Nero to be bigmad at Spock. And then other trash writers needed more people to take a steaming dump on Picard for things that clearly weren't his fault.
Because the writers didn't think about Romulan agency to do anything on their own, and were maximalists. It would have been interesting to see "we could only evacuate 20% of the population in that time, you could have save millions more!" but no, it had to 100% be on the Federation for... reasons. Don't think about it, they didn't.
@@darwinxavier3516Jesus dude… who fucking hurt you. You sure Nero is the edge lord?
It comes back to why the Supernova ruptured subspace in the first place and why the Romulan government was so tight lipped about it. There are missing pieces here but it resulted in the Empire being caught flat footed during the crisis with no one to turn to but the Federation.
It's a pity that a certain short sighted ship's captain destroyed the Tox Uthat, it would have come in handy. Maybe that's why Picard was so forcefully motivated to get involved.
The Romulans having a part in destabilizing their own sun to the point of supernova makes sense, as in The Undiscovered Country, the Klingons accidentally destroyed their moon Praxis due to over-mining and insufficient safety protocols, resulting in the Khitomer Accords between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire.
"Picard" did not specify it was Romulus' sun. They referred to it as "the Romulan star" that had gone supernova, but that merely specifies that it's a star within the Romulan Star Empire - not necessarily Eisn itself, but possibly another nearby star where experiments were being conducted (as only a suicidal race would use their own star as the laboratory for experimentation).
Yeah, canonically the Romulus system has 2 stars. It is possible (and makes more sense) that Romulus-B could be Hobus.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 That wouldn't make sense either. First of all, a supernova in one system can't threaten an entire quadrant, one-quarter of the galaxy - a *hyper*nova wouldn't be that powerful. Secondly, there'd have been no time to dispatch the Jellyfish to try to stop the shockwave from hitting Romulus if it were in the same system, because it would be a matter of _minutes_ before the planet was destroyed. The Federation also wouldn't have been able to even attempt to evacuate Romulus if they were covering up an incipient supernova in that system. It only makes sense if Hobus is in another system, _and_ the shockwave is being propagated through subspace because of something the Romulans were doing.
@@DeaconBlues117 ; 1.) The term "quadrant" is often used very loosely & hyperbolically in Trek, often not implying the entire literal quadrant, and even than it can still pose a threat if one still operates under the assumption that supernova is traveling at subspace FTL.
2.) We don't actually know when Spock's Jellyfish ship was launched in relation to the supernova detonation. It could have been right after, like you are assuming, or it could have been a short while before by a matter of hours or even days.
3.) I don't see how the Federation would not have been able to detect the activity of the Hobus in the Romulus system vs anything other system also in Romulan space.
I'm not saying Hobus *had* to have been in the Romulan system, I'm saying it *could* be. Also, I was saying it made more sense in regard to it making more sense for Hobus to be Romulus-B as opposed to Hobus being Romulus-A/Eisn.
The little I know about Romulans and Remans is that they really wanted to invent new things even at the cost of lives of their own people... I theorised that they were trying to experiment with either a new power source or fuel and that they failed to contain it and that caused the supernova getting out of control. In recent episode of Strange New Worlds there was mention of subspace rip that propagated all across Federation space to border of Klingon space.
It fits well with the hubris and secrecy the Romulans have become famous for.
The Picard book The Dark Veil goes with that explanation. A Romulan scientist was being coerced into working for the Tal Shiar because he was responsible for "The Accident" which kicked off the buildup to the supernova. Romulans being so secretive that they even keep their own government in the dark about world ending events for the sake of saving face kinda fits.
@@the-wandering-knight9952 I haven't read any of the books... I've so far watched all the movies and almost all the series except the original animated series. I did read physics and chemistry in school so I like comparing real life knowledge with what the writers decided.
I was going to write something like this myself, when I saw your comment. I think that the Romulans, or the Remuns were trying to improve the power source for thier ships (the micro black hole/quantum singularity) in order to gain an advantage over the Federation and Klingon ships; the experiment got out of control and caused their sun to go supernova. Whether it was the Romulan government itself, the Remuns, or the Tal Shiar secret project, I couldn't speculate, but the experimentation with dangerous concepts seems to fit into the Romulan/Remun/Tal Shiar mind set.
Even in a state like the Romulan Star Empire, you couldn't keep something like that under wraps. Sounds to me like they're trying to patch a hole that is too big for them to fix.
I think you could, to an extent. If you "silence" the people who actually can study the state of the star, how much does the common citizen know or think about the star in their home system? Even if some random citizens look at the star/study it in any detail, you could find ways to keep them quiet about it.
I think to your point the ruling classes on Romulus might have a hard time keeping their mouths shut, and you'd wind up with a lot more "accidental" shuttle crashes and disintegrations than normal in a Romulan-type government to clear out the trouble makers...and those surviving would get the point and want to get away from the explosion.
@@Corbomite_Meatballs Even private starship operators? In a high tech, spacefaring civilization such as the Romulan Star Empire, such knowledge would get out.
@@Corbomite_Meatballs sorry the USSR tried and failed
@@thefurrybastard1964 Are they scanning the star to determine its stability, or to make sure they don't fly into it?
@@Revkor In regard to what?
If they ever do a show continuing the 25th century setting, a great episode could be made about romulans seeking revenge against their former leaders for causing the supernova.
Star Trek Online
I find it a bit suspicious that the Takon also fell because of 1 supernova destroying their Homeworld. A vast multi star empire shouldn't be devastated so easily by the loss of 1 star.
When Rome fell, so did the Roman Empire. Those kinds of centralised states can not exist without the central power.
Only Romulus need to be destroyed to topple the empire.
In Star Trek, colony worlds almost always seem to have tiny populations compared to the capitals - often a single settlement. It depicts a setting where interstellar civilisations are highly centralised.
Romulus in particular is probably *especially* centralised because of its nature as a secretive, dictatorial state.
@@bipolarminddroppings actually the Empire didn't fall till what is now Instabul fell.
@@bipolarminddroppings Rome fell in the west in 476 a.d. but survived in the east until 1453. So you are off by almost 1000 years buddy.
@@y_knot_tri Want your mind blown a bit?
The Roman Empire didn't fall (well, not completely), as the Papal state in Rome was an official part of the Roman Empire.
And it was never sacked or ruined in any way, and did not change government in all that time since then.
So *Technically* the Roman Empire still exists.. Just in a ridiculously lessened form.
The same thing happened to the T'Kon, who were even more advanced.
The Romulans seemed to be making good progress towards warming up to the Federation around the time of Nemesis. It's a pity JarJar Abrams had to go pull the rug out from under the whole thing.
That does seem like a very Romulan thing to do.
Or Section 31😆
@5:20 - *Captain Riker
Great vid for people looking for some answers as they come deeper in the fandom!
I think the reason that would make the most sense is that there was some kind of Tal Shiar energy production or weapons testing program gone awry. The Romulans already used highly unstable artificial singularities to power some of their ships, it would make sense that they had some kind of program to draw immense power from a star to power a remote facility, something that involved using subspace fields to beam power to a production facility in the star system at FTL speeds.
I know exactly how it happened... JJ Abrams and his crew of idiots needed to give their bad guy a backstory. And they had no consideration about how "realistic" such an event would be in the Star Trek universe. They probably start off with the phrase "wouldn't it be cool if".
As Abrams himself stated in an interview with Jon Stewart; "I was never a fan of Star Trek growing up," so it makes sense he'd toss out anything that was inconvenient for an action-based film and go for the 'cool factor'
@@andrewmalinowski6673paraphrased from that same interview. Stewart: "I stopped listening after you said you didn't like Star Trek, I did see your mouth continue to move, so I assume what followed was an apology."
Except this stuff was set up in the TNG movies so you guys definitely never seen star trek.
@@lunakingsley.7247 well enlighten us, where was this set up, in Nemesis?
@@lunakingsley.7247 well, don't keep us in suspense, where was it mentioned?
You talking about this topic, makes me think that the supernova was a aftershock of the TNG's All Good Things Subspace fissure Event. With Q's help they managed to close the fissure but what if even that couldn't stop a build up that caused the supernove? or what if the event created a chain reaction of other things in motion?
That makes way more sense cannon wise and it has the advantage of being theoretical technobable so you can wave away any known physics.
@@readhistory2023 I often wondered if other then the "test" of humanity, the true purpose of the Anti-Time rupture was to guide the events of the original timeline in another direction, since Picard was able to not only stop the event but bring back critical information about their future that he told everyone about. The future timeline also showed us an event where the Klingon Empire took over Romulan space, we don't know how that happened but after the Supernova it seems other possible outcomes became available.
I'd say it's a Dominion plot, just like Picard S03, the Dominion infiltrated Romulus, "gave the idea" to the state, giving it hope it would gain more power, the state followed the idea blindly, and fucked up, everything else, happened like your version too.
People are gonna say it's Section 31 but everybody forgets that Dominion agents could be just as lethal.
My headcanon since PIC s1 has been that Hobus is the system where the Admonition was found and that the strange properties the supernova exhibited were the result of the Star system’s unique and artificial nature. Furthermore, due to the system’s status within the Zhat Vash, proper monitoring and study was not allowed by the Romulan Empire as a whole, resulting in the instability being overlooked until it was too late.
Supernovae can sterilize neighboring star systems within a few light years & can cause massive die-offs out to several light years, depending on the size of the star that goes nova. As such, even without handwavium explanations I can see a region around Romulus becoming uninhabitable pretty easily.
Maybe the Romulans were triing to harvest the stars energy, by linking it to subspace. Which woud in theory give the entire empire acces to nearly unlimited wireless energy. The only reason why would they use their own sun is the aspect of romulan centralization, so that they would have complete controll.
I think the supernova is a temporal event, a fraction or person in the distant future starting the temporal war on a larger scale
My opinion is quite simple. The Romulans warp drive is based on a singularity. They did more singularity experiments. Experiment went nuts. It’s within the realm of possibility of and frankly, if the singularity has an uncontained exponential growth, it will cause started go boom or I should say moob as it is the reverse of a boom
but that would be an implosion, not a supernova...
what a lot of singularities could do is mess with time... and, if those time alterations are in resonance, that could technically cause a subspace supernova...
have not thought this through yet, but your comment sort of gave me that Idea...
Subspace Supernova's my new coverband name
Actually, the event of a Supernova destroying Romulus was already mentioned in a TNG episode where an alien kid captured Riker and made him believe he was in a coma induced by a pathogen for a long time, and the Romulans and the Federation were opening talks; based on a predictive simulation where Rmulus Sun already went nova, so maybe that alien kid already knew something was up and the star was destabilizing.
Oh well, you can always say a large Romulan ship with a fully functional black hole / singularity drive crashed into the star and the black hole just worked its way to the core.
Section 31: well, we had Praxis and now we had Romulus Star
Well, we have the best agents in the sector to infitrate and sabotage their secret project
An exploding stellar body creating a subspace shock wave is nothing new. That's how the Federation learned of the destruction of Praxis, while quite a ways away. And _that_ explosion was small enough to not significantly damage the planet next to which it happened. Imagine the same effect scaled up to the size of a star ~10x as massive as our sun (much smaller and its collapse would classify as a regular Nova, not a Supernova) and you _easily_ get a shock wave that can wreck several systems around it.
I’ve always thought it was reasonable that the Supernova took out the entire empire. Its made pretty clear throughout the canon that the Tal Shiar and the empire government didnt see eye-to-eye, and that the Tal Shiar had huge influence over the military (but notably not ALL of it). So you imagine that, with the seat of the government destroyed, the Tal Shiar maybe couldnt usurp it completely, but they could certainly crack it in half, and ultimately accelerate the empires fall by stoking internal conflict and seeking power. And then tou need to consider all the other groups and individuals with their eyes set on power - I mean we saw in Picard just how big of a fleet the Zhat Vash managed to raise - you cant imagine that this tiny sect just _had that sitting around_ before the supernova.
It would be like if Washington DC was destroyed by a tornado or some other natural disaster, and in response half of all army bases couped and took over their state. They succeed in some places, fail in others. The former government might hold on to some, while the infrastructure collapse would effectively kill others. Either way, the thing we knew as the United States of American would cease to exist.
Ultimately the Romulan empire was a hotbed and scheming individuals and widespread secrecy and mistrust. It seems totally reasonable to me that, at the first real sign of instability, the whole thing would implode.
Edit: Not to mention, Romulus had enemies that I’m sure were more than happy to jump them at the first sign of weakness.
I agree. Repressive governments like the Romulan Empire and Cardassian Union always came off to me as far more unstable than they looked. It’s like real life authoritarian states, once something goes wrong there’s a strong chance everything falls apart. And I’m sure the instability caused after Shinzon’s coup and all the bs the Tal Shiar does only hastened the Empire’s collapse after the homeworld was lost.
a supernova can normally only do harm in its vicinity. even the high gamma ray bursts can only travel at light speed. And the Romulans have shields against gamma rays.
A more apt analogy would be the Soviet Union and it was Moscow that got destroyed. But in any case I don't think the state would collapse. It would be Romulan Empire v2.0, not that different than before, but now with added militarism.
So, Beta Canon gives three explanations; Countdown: renegade Remans detonate a star (referred to as the Hobus Supernova) to get revenge for the loss of Shinzon and their defeat, which results in the near-elimination of the entire Eisn System, STO: a Romulan (Taris) seeks to prevent a secret reappearance of the Iconians and covers it up to hide her guilt, and STP novels: accidental explosion caused by an unknown Romulan project
They forgot to pay for their Plot Armor Insurance silly....
The silencing of the Romulan scientists by their government sounds like a parallel to the Kryptonian Council silencing Jor-El in the Salkindverse "Superman" movie. Both planets were destroyed by supernova explosions.
Yet another reason to dislike the JJ Abrams star trek films.
Because the animation takes like 9 hours to play and, unlike them, Sephiroth didn’t get up to go nuke a burrito.
The Federation is weirdly lucky that both of its great rivals are devastated by "industrial accidents"...
i had a idea how the supernova happened.
but it's just a big bang theory
Thanks
The "Achilles Heel" of every scifi Interstellar power. Their home system's Star is a potential bomb. All it takes is to develop a way to set it off.
Iconians!
"Unnatural" Ah, so Palpatine was involved. That checks out.
I think that an semi-omnipotent species from another universe was also involved in the supernova. This species is extremly hungry for new stories and they can create and change events in the ST-universe to whatever they like - it's as easy as writing a book to them.
So in the STO timeline, the subspace part of the supernova was due to the technology given to the Tal Shiar by the Iconians in order to destroy much of the Romulan Star Empire and cripple the nearby Federation. I like that idea.
In canon timeline, it could have been some Romulan superweapon idea to use the same concept as the STO one, to create a weapon that can devastate their enemies should it be needed... only for it to go awry and cause them untold amounts of destruction in return.
"I was off-planet, doing my job while your Federation did nothing, and allowed my people to burn while their planet broke in half!" -- Captain Nero, 2258
A subspace supernova has nothing on a Champagne Supernova imho.
In all seriousness, it's not surprising the Romulans would cause their own demise. Their government was unstable at the best of times. How many times did we see them overthrowing themselves, even letting a human clone take over once.
"How could a powerful people totally ignore a predicted natural disaster despite all the evidence?"
*laughs in melting ice sheets*
which are melting
If City of Heroes has taught me anything, it can all be very easily explained as being a Nemesis plot.
Subspace Supernova - the less successful follow up song from Oasis - its debut was from the EP - I hate my brother; hey me too!
We can guess at a couple of answers based on Star Trek cannon. When Praxis blew up, the shockwave was felt lightyears away, as the USS Excelsior couldn't have been that close to Kronos, as this was before the two powers joined forces. I am guessing the remaining Dilithium in the moon somehow opening a gateway into subspace, powered by the explosion. So either the Romulan's home star had a high natural concentration of Dilithium in it, or someone dumped a lot of into the star. Perhaps an experiment to keep the star from cooling off, as it could have been older than Sol is. The presence of that much Dilithium in the star itself could have created a super-gateway into subspace, sending out a shockwave far enough to reach Federation space.
The second thing I can think of is that Soren had no trouble blowing up stars in "Generations". using trilithium to destabilize the star. While not an actual supernova, the effects on the Romulan home star would have been the same. Though even if the Romulans knew what had happened in Generations, I doubt that they would try to build a weapon and test it on their own sun. Though it could have been used by any of the Romulans enemies, even the Dominion.
Rick, you mentioned that in one of those novels that an observatory on Earth detected the impending supernova. Unless that observatory was using long range subspace sensors of some kind, an optical telescope's view of the Romulan home star would be centuries old, as I assume it is lightyears from earth. Which would have meant the supernova had happened well before the founding of the Federation.
Why would earth even have planet side observatories in the 24th century? I can see out at the edge of the solar system, or even out at the edge of Federation space, but on earth? Even if using some kind of FTL/subspace sensor system, all the space traffic around earth and Sol system would create false readings and a lot of background noise.
me as a captain, to the romulans: SKILL ISSUE!
Easy answer is once a species loses its homeworld they tend to lost most if not all of their power because...plot. I mean the star empire HAD to have a bunch of waring factions pop up due to their capital falling.
I could entirely believe the Romulan Star Empire being very centralised, with all political and economic power flowing to & from Romulus itself. Once that lynchpin fell, everything would start to collapse. In the Countdown comics, Nero killed off a large part of the fleeing Senate & high ranking military officials for allowing this all to occur while his wife (and countless other Romulans) died, which then cemented the collapse as no-one was left with the authority, influence or capability to hold it all together.
I'd have thought that the Romulans would have just moved to another one of their many planets in their Red Star Empire, and just renamed the planet " Neos Romulus " or something ? 🖖🙂 Logical conclusion
@@optimusprinceps3526 sadly I don't think any species in trek ever thinks that far ahead. Hell I'd have the home base of the federation move from each of the founding worlds and each one having a large shipyard on par with what was on Mars
@@Dogbertious What your not considering is the Tal Shiar. The state institutions maybe highly centralized but the intelligence apparatus most certainly is not. How could a spy network spanning light years not have contingency plan for the capital falling? Most likely it would have bases on every planet and leaders ready to immediately assume control once the head of the organization is killed or the central government dissolves. I mean it's the most obvious threat to prepare for regardless of whether it falls for internal or external reasons.
They lost to a supernova because that's what the writers needed to happen for Star Trek's nth attempt at replicating the Khan-style revenge plot villain.
The joy of headcanon is that, rather than trying to come up with plausible excuses for bad writing, you can just ignore all of the bad parts of a franchise (ST V, Nemesis, most of the Kelvin timeline movies, and the trivialization of the Borg) and enjoy the good parts all the better for it.
Subspace shenanigans not involving singing. Got it.
Any chance of getting a video on Baran's mercenary ship or Seven of Nine's Fenris Ranger ship?
So, this is the Romulans' "Don't Look Up".
I'd like to see you beat a Supernove in a fight after it jumps you.
Section 31 is very pleased that you dont spread any baseless conspiracy theories regarding federation involvement.
There would have been a decent reason for the Empire to collapse into warring factions driving waves of refugees without needing a subspace supernova. We merely need to posit a tightly controlled Empire that concentrates all power (and competent leadership) into the central government and keeps the provincial and colonial overseer positions for easily led toadies or fearful quislings who don't question orders (or at least for those excellent at playing those roles). Make Romulus the seat of Imperial power and the place you *need* to be in order to be someone (or keep someone who is someone from arranging your trial for treason or summary execution). Then introduce the assassination of the Senate by Shinzon, and you have a generation of competent leadership deposed and the system disrupted for the first time in centuries, giving all those quislings and toadies a taste of power vacuum. Given that taste, the second Romulus' star goes supernova, everybody and their cousin starts trying to seize the opportunity to carve out their piece of a new Empire, and viola, Chaos!
STO Timeline had Romulus destroyed in the super nova, caused by the Iconians, not to wipe out a rival but as revenge for Taris killing the iconians in the past
Taris didn't do that. Admiral Sela did that.
@@tails0420ify I meant Sela whoops
Wouldnt it make sense to put cities full of people in pattern buffers in transporters? They would be able to backup and save so many people.
I think it was The Q.
Just to see what would happen or to bring Romulans closer to The Fedaration.
Just my thoughts respect and keep up the epic work.
👍😆 Q... he's always up to something just for kix
Tying the supernova to subspace and making it an interstellar threat feels like needless escalation of stakes, just sound and fury.
Romulan meddling turning their own star supernova is a plenty big enough deal.
I always assumed it was the Romulans' fault, screwing about with their own star in some clandestine and highly unadvisable experiment. The simplest explanation and the least fanwanky.
The Romulan Star Empire had a truly massive fleet of star ships, many bigger than Star Fleet standard, I get them keeping it quiet to avoid a panicking populace and leave decanters behind, but why would the Star Empire even need federation assistance they are an old empire with a massive fleet and huge ship building capacity, hell you don't even need that bigger ships, beam up masses of population, store them in transport buffers and beam them back the other end. Like all ill thought out plot points created for singular movies, books or shows it doesn't make sense and no amount of retroactive tweaking can ever get it too.
Amazing how much work people that care actually have to go through to make one stupid idea work later.
I posted this in a sub thread for this comment section but something tells me it bears repeating here. Now to be clear Rick, I’m not trying to disparage what you do. Im a fan and lord knows I love geeking out about finer points of speculative fiction. I just think some people in the comments need a little reality check. So without further ado….
“Buddy you are talking into the wind. The reason that man children latch on to Star Trek so much is not because of the storytelling no matter how much they claim that’s the case. They don’t actually talk about or concern themselves with themes, symbols, metaphysics or any of that stuff.
The reason they liked Star Trek is there was a body of inside knowledge that they could obsess over and it made them feel an extrinsic sense of exclusivity. Never mind that the show was never consistent on its set pieces and did a poor job representing reality in a material sense. It was their nonsense. If new nonsense is suddenly added it’s not just accepted as more nonsense but treated like an invasive species. Well you can’t have that because their whole identity is consumed by this nonsense they already knew! You are challenging their personhood! Worse yet the new nonsense has been a hit with audiences! Now all these posers are coming in to their once exclusive club with all their new nonsense! That was their space they have to share now! And let’s not pretend for a moment that isn’t a major motivation. How often have you heard people deride any new installment in one of these nerd franchises as being some way to appeal to a more general audience like it’s a bad thing?
You know what’s something I’ve noticed? A little bit of an anecdote. There is this guy who works in my kitchen. 60 year old rock musician. Sweet guy. A little spacey but has one helluva knowledge base about music and television. One day we get to talking about old school 60’s TV and eventually we bring up Star Trek. He tells me about how much of a fan he was and how the stories were always so good and how much fun the costumes and settings were. I ask him if he watched any of the other shows. “The one with Patrick Stewart? Naw man I didn’t really get into that one.” I ask him what he thought of the new movies. “Aw dude! Those were awesome! Chris Pine was a good Kirk! The music kicked ass! I liked seeing the gang get to meet each other…” and it went on like that for a while and I thought to myself that it was kind of incredible that this isn’t the first time I’ve had this conversation. I must have had anywhere between 20 to 30 of these conversations over the course of my life and it never fails that older guys who watched the original show and generally more laid back “I’d have a beer with you” type people absolutely loved the old 60’s show, were middling or largely skipped the others, but came back to watching Trek because they liked the Abrams movies. Meanwhile all the Gen X and millennial dorks who obsess about lightsaber physics and other assorted bullshit just piss and moan when talking about the show.
So my question generally to people is who would you rather be? The nerdy kid who is full of cynicism and anger because of inconsistent transporter operation or the old dude with fond memories who can still get a kick out of some escapist space fantasy?”
The idea that the Romulans would test something like this on their own star is absurd beyond belief. Sure, I can imagine a hilariously irresponsible secret project but they'd far more likely use one of the many other stars in their space, preferably one way off in the corner. The story in the Picard books is like doing the Trinity test in Manhattan. It absolutely beggars belief. The STO storyline with the Iconians made vastly more sense.
Something to explore in star trek legacy perhaps
I been wondering about that 🤔😎🖖🏻
I💚Ric
The beneath-the-plot reason is that JJ doesn't understand physics or astrophysics or science in general. But lots of interesting plot reasons can be given because we're just creative that way!