Thank you, Virgil. Like yourself, I am a 'recovering Pentecostal' (20 years in Foursquare, 3 in Vineyard, including a year marked by the dubious "Toronto Blessing"). In my experience, the strongest argument against continuationism is the entire Pentecostal movement itself. In my 23 years in the movement, I can honestly say that I never once heard a genuine prophecy, never saw a miraculous healing (including anyone raised from the dead), and never heard any tongues other than gibberish, despite the fact that every church I attended was filled with people who believed in these things, sought these things, were convinced they operated in these things, and taught that these things were normative for all believers. If any group of people should be operating in the sign gifts, surely the adherents of Foursquare and Vineyard should be near the top of the list. Yet their track record is one of abject failure. And if Pentecostals and charismatics have, in fact, been racking up false prophecies, bogus miracles, and fake tongues for over a century, then that constitutes an unimaginable quantity of careless blasphemy -- a possibility that should not be taken lightly.
@@jenkinsbrigade9862 I believe all organized religions have their weaknesses. Even those who say scripture alone, faith alone, do have wrong Interpretations of the scriptures and create wrong doctrines for their followers. I believe in the personal relationship with the Creator. You can fellowship with them but it is not wise to swear allegiance. The Holy Spirit is the one who will interpret what God is saying to you as you read the bible. That's why 1 John 2:27 says that a born again child of God does not need anyone to teach them because they are anointed. Jesus too, said that no one should be called a teacher because there is only one Teacher and we are all children of God Matthew 23:8. What pastors say should confirm our interpretation and not a clever human mind interpretation.
Proclaiming one's basis of belief in Sola Scriptura and being rooted in Scripture, and then failing to produce a single Scripture that either directly states or infers such a stance, seems to me to indicate that one's belief is built on the foundation of tradition. Not 1 Scripture was produced that teaches the Spirit no longer gives gifts as He sees fit, and that God will absolutely not give certain gifts any more. Because no such Scripture exists. Such gifts have always been given for a limited period of time, or very sparingly, both in old and new testaments. Yes the gifts dwindled, even during the life of the Apostles. But Scripture no where states that God will never again grant such gifts as He deems useful. I say this completely based on Scripture, having never seen or experienced any such gifts today.
Inference: 2 Timothy 3:1 - 4:8. Paul at the end of his life gives final advice to his young protege. Over time the gifts ceased. His charge was to “continue in what you have learned” and to “preach the word.” Thus, in context, it at least infers that the gifts have ceased and definitely that they are not of importance because they are not even mentioned. The burden is then on the continuationist to show why sign gifts are still relevant to ongoing ministry, even if they are still given. Until that burden is met, it is reasonable to operate under sola scriptura.
@@timkeslar3615 But that scripture you're sola'ing says the gifts continue. And your inference from Timothy is used to construct an argument from the absence of data. That puts the burden of proof on no one else. But while we're making inferences, John, in Revelation, makes no mention of sola fide. We know that this doctine, central to salvation, fell by the wayside in the hands of Rome and was not given its due prominance until the Reformation. So did sola fide cease as the means of salvation?
@@timkeslar3615 no, the one claiming that cessationism is "rooted in Scripture" is the one that bears the burden of proof, which should be easily to prove. Yet every argument given to directly support the claim were quotes from men, not a single verse was sighted. I believe the charismatic movement has done unspeakable harm to the Church, brings a reproach on the Name of Christ, grieves the Spirit, and is leading millions to hell. I also believe Jesus could not do many miracles in His own town because of unbelief. Only fools don't test the spirits to see if they're from God. But I also know the enemy delights in getting true Christians to lean on their own understanding and reason their way out of believing what the Bible actually says. Were the gifts mentioned ONLY done by the Apostles? Hardly. Yet that claim intermittently shows up in the cessationists arguments. "Don't eat the fruit AND don't touch it". = NOT God's word.
Modern Cessationists often misrepresent Augustine as an early advocate for their version of the cessation of miraculous gifts. While he expressed skepticism earlier in life, he later changed his view. In City of God (22.8), Augustine states, “Why, you ask, do such miracles not occur now? But they do occur!” He also corrects his earlier stance in Retractions, admitting, “I wrote then that miracles no longer happened, but this was proven false.” Augustine, far from being a strict Cessationist, embraced either the continuation of miraculous gifts or held a moderate view of Cessationism in his later years. The more lengthy quotes below make it untenable to assert that HE believed in the strict form of Cessationism this video falsely presents as being Augustinian. He explicitly retracted his earlier beliefs in his famous work, Retractationes (Latin), where he also developed his most mature writing against a number of heresies and errors. Again, HE believed that such things things continued ongoing to his day. His conclusions, based on firsthand experience, were articulated in his mature writings just a few years before his death. Don't take my word for it, take his: "Why, you ask, do such miracles not occur now? But they do occur! I myself, when I was writing this very book, knew of a blind man who had been restored to sight. At the same time, in the city of Carthage, a certain woman was healed by touching the relics of the most blessed martyr, Stephen. She had previously suffered from a serious illness… For, even now, many miracles are wrought, the same God who did those in former times still working the miracles, whether by Himself or through His servants as He pleases. These miracles were made known to the people of Hippo, and some of them had occurred even in my own presence." - Augustine, The City of God, Book 22, Chapter 8 (AD 426) "Once I realized HOW MANY MIRACLES were happening EVEN IN MY OWN TIME and how wrong I was, I have now corrected myself. I wrote then that miracles no longer happened, but this was proven false. TOO MANY miracles have occurred since, including AT LEAST SEVENTY instances of healing IN CARTHAGE ALONE, where people have been healed of blindness, paralysis, and other ailments. These things happen, and many more in the name of Christ, EVEN NOW." - Augustine, Retractions, Book 1, Chapter 13 (AD 427) [emphasis mine] Moreover, Calvin, while clearly Cessationist, also differs from this new form of Cessationism. He was closer to the position that this video criticizes (if not actually there). It's very easy to withhold certain quotes from Calvins commentaries and Institutes and present only the ones that align with this modern view on the cessation of the gifts, but that would be to present a partial and incomplete portrait of his teaching on Cessationism. Below I have provided just two quotes (I can provide more, particularly from his commentary on 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians) that I believe prove his view was not entirely aligned with G3's: "If we regard the present state of the church, the order that the Lord instituted ought to be inviolate: where prophecy is rare and new revelations are not received, yet those who preside over churches are not to be without the gift of interpretation. [Yet] We do not so reject all prophecy as to count it altogether abolished and gone." - Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV.19.18 (Battles). "For to some he gave, indeed, the gift of apostleship, to some prophecy, to some evangelists, to some pastors and teachers [Eph. 4:11]. Why should we expect all this to be brought back anew, when there is no need of it? But if the Lord sees it to be necessary for his day, he is able to revive them." - Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV.3.4 (Battles). Was Calvin cessationist? Absolutely! Was he the type that G3 advocates for? Not if you read Calvin yourself and stop letting these guys spoon feed you church history. You do know you can engage the original sources yourself like you do Scripture right? Lastly, it's important to note that many prominent Cessationists from the Scottish and Dutch Reformed traditions can be added to this discussion. I can provide ample evidence for this. While you may support the new form of Cessationism, please refrain from revising history to suggest that most figures in church history or the Protestant Reformation held this particular view. Such a treatment is either intellectually dishonest or constitutes poor scholarship, at best. It's enough that liberals revise history, let us not join them brethren.
Besides the four quotes you provided, please give me some more. I’m trying to research this issue and want more counter arguments. Thank you in advance.
WOW WOW and WOW! Terrific teaching with scriptures. I was a cessationist prior to this video and spoke to my current pastor about my concerns that some of the leaders in our church fall into the camp of open but cautious. I was asked if I believe God can do these things. I of course agreed that God can do anything he wants to. End of conversation. This gives me the knowledge to respectfully refute that. We’re never going to find a church with perfect theology but this seemed like low hanging fruit. Obviously not for everyone. Great job sir! I’ve never seen you before but probably will now.
@@JonJaeden not at all. The gospel work they did served its purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled. Thinking that the work of THE OFFICE OF AN APOSTLE is over. There are no apostles around today so no one can do the work of an apostle. Make sense ?
@@CowboyFantastic007 Peter and Paul's particular work certainly ended upon their deaths, but the both said the gifts of the Spirit were given to believers and that it would continue until the end. These were gifts to the churches that the Apostles founded. Nothing in scripture, when these gifts are discussed, suggests their "purpose has been fulfilled."
@@CowboyFantastic007 I have witnessed what purports to be these gifts. I am agnostic, though not hostile, to modern claims. I'm not particularly interested in the modern claims. My focus is on what does the Bible say regarding the gifts and what did it mean in roughly AD54 when Paul's letter arrived in Corinth. Until that is resolved, what standard do we have to judge modern claims? My hermaneutic is "it means what it meant," hence the focus on Scripture as opposed to the twisted narratives of the cessationists or the experiences of the charismatics.
Is Calvin the founder of Christianity of Christ Himself. You keep quoting Calvin and following his life pattern instead of putting Christ ahead... We follow Christ, not a man!
I see the effects of this type of thinking/approach in my southern baptist church...Unfortunately, even from the pulpit. An openness to God speaking to us through dreams was a point in yesterdays sermon on Daniel 4. I just shook my head....A lack of understanding and discernment are a virus in the church today.
That was very well said, we used to have a crazy prophetess at our church she used to give all kinds of crazy prophecies that sounded like she was just trying to quote the Bible Old testament prophets. Then she got up and said that she had a vision of The giant from Gulliver's travels being laid down and tied up by all the little people and that that was like the Christian church in America and that it needed to be freed. Then I really realized wow Miss lady's off her rocker. Somebody once said if someone's prophesying and it doesn't line up with scripture then it's not valid and if it does line up with scripture it's not necessary. I think that's one of the best explanations I've ever heard for explaining to all these people that are on the fence about the charismatic gifts Ceasing why they're totally unnecessary. There is no need for them because of the Bible. It really makes you wonder if these people know God if they think the holy spirit is doing all this stuff
I was open to God being faithful to his word But now Thanks to this guy who doesn’t believe in Gods goodness and scripture I now reject Gods goodness and scripture , Bravo, we’ll done Satan. Good and faithful servant
Amen if only people could learn this fundamental truth that the word of God is complete and sufficient what a different Christian Church we would have, Thank you Virgil.
In the Middle Ages while the church argued and debated endlessly over doctrinal issues, Islam, advanced through wars and trade and took over large swaths of previously Christian communities. Today the American Church is arguing with itself over things Paul specifically said we should not be arguing about while losing the next generation to secular humanism. Shake my head.
Excellent presentation and explanation. For someone to say, "Jesus spoke in a dream" is a way to draw emotionalism to "get" people to "believe." I respond and say, "Dream on!"
2 Peter 1:19 "And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rise in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Those who say things like "thus sayeth the LORD" or 'God told me this", unless what hey say aligns with scripture, are trying to add to God's word. This was actually Eve's first sin. She added a word that God never spoke. While it can be implied that they weren't supposed to touch the tree, it is never recorded that God said "don't touch that particular tree."
As a theologian this is a definitional issue. The meaning of cessation and those who believe in gifts believe the same thing. I believe in gifts but they operate as God wills. But I don’t believe the miracles ceased. So the devil uses semantics to cause division .
The biggest problem with Cessationism is that there is no clear Scriptural teaching on that. Unlike all other Reformed doctrines, this one does not have any scriptural backing. It is an argument from logic and history and tradition, which is very dangerous in my very humble opinion. Nevertheless, gifts must not be used to separate the Church which is what Paul teaches precisely in 1Cor 12-14. It is folly to use gifts to separate believers when God expressly forbids it.
Cessationists usually say only the "sign gifts" have ceased, but say the others have not. I've been asking for a long time and have yet to get a good answer to this question ... If teaching, helps, administration and other non-sign gifts still exist, how do cessationists distinguish the actual gifts from normal human talents. These non-sign gifts have a miraculous origin too. People in the first century had the ability to teach and administer, so unless the gifts of the Spirit are something different and unique, they're kind of redundent and a letdown. So, how do my cessationist brethren know the real thing?
I believe that an intellectualism is at the root of the Cessation argument. What they have not themselves seen or experienced they will not believe. This video’s arguments is not for middle ground, but for a total ceasing of the miraculous gifts whether prophetic or physical. I ask this question…is the need of the Church today as great as it was in Apostolic times? As we draw closer to the End Times do we not need the reassurance both of Scripture and the gifts? Yes, there may well be abuses, for it has always been so even from biblical times. Yes, there is always emotionalism, but life is not merely an intellectual exercise. I personally do not look to the gifts to affirm my faith, I will continue to believe with or without experiencing these precious glories God offers. Nonetheless, I certain do not deny them for to do so is to deny Romans 12, Ephesians, and 1 Corinthians 12. Surely Scripture is sufficient for our spiritual needs, I would never deny it. But the texts do not deny the gifts, nor do they limit them to the Apostles. Would those claiming differently wish to dispose of the narrative of Acts also? I suspect such deny the Baptism of the Spirit because they have not experienced the Holy Spirit precisely as it is described in Acts 2? Finally, we do not seek the gifts to modify our life trials and tribulations, we embrace them that they will encourage faith in those who need their wonderful healing and guidance power. God bless all, Believer and Cessationists alike.
Prophets no longer exists. We have all we need in the Bible. If someone says I God told me or I have a word from the Lord and it is not followed by chapter and verse with proper exposition then mark and avoid.
I am very curious to see the biblical support for cessationism, especially when proper exegesis is applied and when one does not rely on the presuppositions of a theological System to avoid dealing with verses in context. Surely such strong confidence in cessationism should be match by equally strong biblical support (chapters and verses in context). Ironically and as seen in the comments the truth of cessationism is assumed rather than proven. How is that different from the hermeneutical gymnastics performed by those who abuse gifts, twist verses, or go outside the Bible to justify their positions.
@@Kari_hewitt read 1 Cor 13:8 in context and see when these gifts will pass away. Is there any mention of the completion of the NT? Does the NT fits the description of the “perfect” given by Paul? Do we now know fully as we are known by God ? This interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8-9 has been largely abandoned by scholars as untenable in context. This is not even really a debate anymore despite support by previous generations of interpreters (Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Edwards, Warfield, Walvoord, Geisler, MacArthur, Gaffin). The perfect is related to 2nd coming of Christ and the eternal state as saints are in The presence of God. Unfortunately, this was the best passage for the cessationist view. The only option is to consider the witness of church history, theological issues it creates in theological systems, and experience/ abuses. However how compelling we think that these implicit or extra-biblical arguments are, they cannot be used to override the explicit teaching of Scripture about gifts without a mention of their cessation in this age.
@@alainm6070 Even the "Cessationist" movie steered clear of 1 Cor 13's "perfect." And no wonder ... the Greek used for "perfect" here is derived from the Greek word Paul uses for "the end." And Paul equates the "end" with "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
You need _evidence_ to support the use of Corinthians in this context. Despite the "my 'truth' trumps yours" nonsense of the woke epidemic, we live in a world that functions because of logic and reason - in short, truth. Evidence is scant for: o (Biblical) tongues, I.e. unlearned but readily understood foreign languages, in the context of Christian witness; o frequent healings associated with Spirit-empowered individuals; o accurate and significant prophesies, meeting Biblical tests; o even discernment (faithful Christians are often deceived). I could go on, but you get the idea. When you add to this the truly horrific origins of pentecostalism at the beginning of the C20th, and its dreadful leaders, and its vile child the 'prosperity gospel' (now leading the poor into even more poverty all across Africa), it's plain to see what is real and what is counterfeit.
The abuses of gifts are sickening and frustrating so I get the draw of cessationism. However, I don’t like the idea of making declarative statements about how God will reveal Himself to His people. I think cessationism is rooted in Western prosperity and freedom where everyone has access and the freedom to read the Bible. The Bible is not the only source of inspiration. There are people on this planet that don’t have access to Biblical truth. Much of the world lives under oppressive regimes that do not allow the Gospel to be preached or access to Bibles. I believe God can and does reach those people through dreams, visions, healing, etc. To take a cessationism point of view is to diminish the work of the Holy Spirit.
I have attempted to listen to this very eloquent presentation on Cessationalism to which l have great issue. I will only address a few points. 1. What authority sets forth that after the canonization of scripture God no longer moves in the miraculous or gifting manifested at the start of the early church?? 2. Cessationalist in my opinion never fully answer the broader scope of scripture on a given topic but take a selected position then gather a body of scripture, not always contextually, correct to support their given doctrinal view. When in fact we all need to take the whole council of God’s word. 3. They never address what Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18… The Apostle Paul spoke of wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers… l could go on and on. Cessationalist are very astute but don’t operate in any true authority. 4. Jesus said signs and wonders shall follow them that believe. Did believing end with the canonization of scripture or the original apostles? Just sayin!! Finally, l know we have some “nuts and flakes” out there doing and saying stuff in The Name of The Lord that is false and in error. But Eph 4:10-15 speaks of gifts or offices giving to The Church for the “perfecting of the Saints.” Cessationalist will say this is what scripture now does. They are in error on many levels. I would that God would allow Sensationalist to experience real spiritual warfare and wake up. May The Lord give us all His wisdom and discernment.
I agree with your reference to Hebrews 1, although the Nicene Creed states the contrary with regard to the Holy Spirit. What of James 5: 14-15. Calls for the sick to be anointed and the faith of the sick will heal them
Why is it so wrong to believe that the gifts continue? I understand the extreme charismatic movement is evil. But, is it wrong to believe that there may be small, continuing gifts still happening today?
I agree with your reference to Hebrews 1, although the Nicene Creed states the contrary with regard to the Holy Spirit. What of James 5: 14-15. Calls for the sick to be anointed and the faith of the sick will heal them?
Warfield, confronted with ongoing spiritual gifts had to adjust him point by saying miracles after the Apostles died were performed by persons on whom the Apostles had laid hands on. On page 22, Warfield states categorically that there is no biblical record of anyone other than an Apostle who did miracles, but what about Ananias who healed Saul? In what way does the 21st century church not need the power of Holy Spirit? Is your supposition a Western Christian view?
By definition Christianity is a miraculous religion, Christ is still alive in bodily form, that miracle of ressurection being true even now is the foundation of Christian faith.
It is self-evident that extra ordinary gifts, as defined in Scripture, no longer occur. As one example, the gift of healing, scripturally, is immediate, total and unfailing, and was primarily used to confirm new revelation. Today's self-professed healers clearly don't reflect these qualities, especially evident with the visibly impaired, i.e. crippled, maimed and dead. This does not mean that God does not heal directly as he pleases.
Hello, Virgil. For the record, I am a Reformed Baptist. Just a couple days ago, I watched REMNANT RADIO who had a Presbyterian minister, Ryan Denton, who at some point, I’m not sure if he is currently, was associated with DESIRING GOD ministry. Ryan Denton presented arguments, and somewhat compelling, supporting some church fathers and even some Reformers who were continuists. The only one I remember Ryan mentioning was Augustine. You mentioned that Augustine became a Cessationist at a later date in his life, but did not offer any references or quotes. I appreciate the ones by Calvin, but I think it important to include one from Augustine since he was not a Cessationist early on. Thank you.
@@rhondae8222 Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to offer this information. I just wish Virgil would’ve included some quotes from Augustine like he did from Calvin. God bless, sister.
While I am more cessationist than not (ambiuous enough?), we don't measure truth based on the confusion factor or the goal of pragmatic avoidance of unwanted trends or outcomes (e.g. post mil = optimism, so buy it). We apply pragmatism where we are free to, not on key theology, if revealed in scripture. Eph 2 is useful entry point into our theology, but doesn't answer to apostolic gifts ceasing, so not sure other than church fathers we have a way to confirm this stance. Cessationism seems to be a theology point from silence, which I can understand but don't put much stock in it . But of course I am cautious of people claiming miracles for obvious reasons.
What is the biblical support that spiritual gifts are exercised at will? The prophet speaks when he receives a revelation from God. Moses and Aaron performed most of the miracles associated with the ten plagues after receiving direct instructions from God.
I appreciate Bro. Virgil’s commitment to orthodoxy. However, there are some sweeping generalizations about those who aren’t Cessationists. I believe it limits God’s power to believe He no longer uses His people through outward gifts. I don’t agree with the Pentecostal view that you must speak in tongues or have some outward manifestation of a gift to be saved. That’s clearly not Scripture. However, God IS God. He can and does exhibit His power however He chooses. I have seen and experienced it first hand. A couple things documented. Spiritual gifts in operation also do not have to be tied to “emotionalism.” Prophecy or other gifts do not mean new direction or a new theology. It’s not about validating God’s word. It’s God manifesting Himself how He chooses to show Himself to people. Who are we to say His wonders have stopped? I don’t see how that “relays” or dishonors the foundation. CHRIST IS the cornerstone.
This belief held by pastor Virgil Walker and other calvinists and reformed Christians is why the church in many congregations are powerless and faithless because they are doubting the Spirit’s ability to use believers today as He did in the past. Jesus said when He returns will He find faith on the earth. This should make us wonder why Jesus would make such a statement? I believe it is due to people being filled with fear instead of faith, doubt instead of belief in the Power of God. They quote men instead of God’s word to promote such teachings which are not biblically supported. The gifts are of the Holy Spirit not just apostolic gifts as Philip’s daughters were given the gift of prophecy as well as Agabus(Acts21:9-13). There were apostles given to the churches (James, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Andronicus, Junias, and Apollos (1Cor. 4:6,9, 9:6, 15:7; Gal.1:19; Acts 14:4,14; Rom.16:7; 1 Thess.1:1, 2:7)
My major question is this we’re does the Bible say prophecy has changed in the NT………we’re does it explicitly say it is not meant to be perfect in NT…..I see it appears different in corinthians chapter 14 but nowhere does it actually say it has changed. This leaves us with the problem of discernment what is true and what isn’t.
This man is saying that miracles cannot happen as a result of laying on of hands, but I was delivered from same-sex desires after such an experience, so what should I believe?
Thank you G3 Ministries, you guys have really been a help for me.. I totally see the point of cessationism, Sola Scriptura must be upheld. There's definitely no new Revelation we're waiting for and there are no more apostles and prophets (The scripture is quite clear on this) Though I get the point of Cessationism, and even I am not expecting any of those things. but I'll be careful to say what the Bible itself doesn't talk about . That itself is like going against Sola Scriptura. However, I believe that if God wants to work in ways He wants to, it'll be in line with His attributes as HE Himself is an unchanging God. (i.e if someone claims to have possessed a spiritual gift, it must be in line with what the scripture prescribes it to be) What I hold on to is the Scripture alone, nothing more, nothing less. That's doesn't mean I'm a cessationist. I'm a Christian that's all and a Christian should be guided by the scripture alone. No camps! All of these argument are from a good place as there are many false prophets out there in the world today (We're not surprised though, The Bible already spoke about them).
I could care less what a MAN SAYS because the Bible Says Mark 16:17-18 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I consider myself "open but cautious". 😊 I fully believe God can give the same gifts today as he gave to the apostles. However, I do NOT believe there are apostles today. God is bigger than our understanding, and if he wants someone to prophesy, or heal, or speak in another (real) language, He can and will if He so desires. I just have not seen this happen. Most 'prophets' these days are false. Most healings are psychsomatic at best. Tongues, I have yet to hear an actual language. Does that mean God cant do these things today? Are we limiting God based on our human understanding?
Methods have changed , sacrifices and high priests and so on, Christ coming becoming our King and high priest , and one time sacrifice forever, we still have no biblical sign gifts being done or evidence of it, God still heals and leads and convicts, saves and sanctifies, but no one has “ miracle gifts “ in their hands like seen in the scripture
The apostle James disagree with you. He specifically tells lay members to go to the ministers so they could lay hands on them when they are ill, so to claim that nobody has the miracle gifts is an outright denial of scripture. It is also an outright denial of God's government. The fact that cessationists don't see these things or are aware of these things only means their relationship with the true God isn't as good as they want to believe it is.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 so praying for someone means the person “ has the gift of healing ?“ our did God tell us to pray for the person , it is God that heals, we can agree on that can we not !?!?! No one in these days carry it like in the days of the apostles during the founding of the church, we can agree on that can’t we !?!?!
@@KCRookie nope, I believe the apostles were empowered in those times, but in these times we pray according to God’s will , and in Gods providence He answers ❤️
Where does the Bible say the gifts have ceased? I haven’t read that. And why is it just the spiritual gifts? What else has “ceased”? The Bible says salvation is a gift, did that cease too? If not, why? To me, you’ve taken the Bible and made it questionable. I believe the entire Bible is truth, the infallible word of God and I’ve got no questions/doubts. I listen to 6, 7 minutes of this video on “cessation”, I’ve got 10,000 questions and strong doubts. 6:46
Respectfully allow me to share my position. - I agree with Calvin a lot but I am personally not a secessionist. The always reforming mantra should apply here as Calvin is not perfect, no one is, so it’s important to be open to allow scripture and reality to correct us, scripture above all. There is no explicit passage that states without a doubt that gifts have utterly ceased, and whatever is claimed to be is debatable, just like infant baptism. We do not need ongoing revelation or experiences, however God is able to do so if He wishes to, just as He did in scripture, for His glory and for the Churches edification. It is critical to be discerning and to be cautious with anyone claiming to have heard from God, even with your own experiences. A few questions to ask are 1. Does it contradict God’s word? 2. Does it lead us to God or ourselves? 3. Is it self serving? You don’t have to take anyone’s experience as matter of fact, in fact, if you did not experience it, how do you know if it’s true? That would apply even to the past, there were times where people were lead astray by false prophets, that’s where the above check list can help, and in fact, the gift of discernment. We may not be sure about someone’s shared experience, just as we must look for fruit even in those who confess, but we can always rejoice in the pursuit of God and growth in godliness. You can be a continuationist and still lean on the sufficiency of scripture. But if someone is sick, we should not be like faithless servants who don’t believe God will or can heal, who refuse to lay on hands as scripture commands. Whether God would give us the grace to take part in a miracle of His should not be out of the realm of possibilities for a God that is always able. The idea of experiencing God should not have negative connotations. Is God that impersonal that He would dwell within us and around us and yet we would not experience Him at all?? God works through His people, in the exposition of Gods word, in the ministry of evangelism, in the grace given to us to persevere and more. You may not feel Him when you worship, you may not hear a voice, but we can expect the unexpected if we truly forsake all in pursuit of Him. Expect whatever the scripture displays and proclaims as you walk faithfully. Obedience brings reward “Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” John 14:21 ESV I don’t believe this is an essential matter or one that should cause divisions among us. I do exercise caution in this area, so as to not be reliant on experience but rather upon the truth of Gods word. As we can sometimes be mislead by discouragement and doubt to believe if we are not “feeling God”, than we are not right or near to God. This is where scripture suffices for us, and we must always stand upon its truth with regards to assurance. All truth matters but we have to accept we disagree at times, just like we have disagreements on infant baptism among the reformed. Grace and peace
Your quoting Calvin is Calvin quoting God? Or is he saying that by a revelation of the Holy Spirit? Can we change the word of God? So what is the meaning of sola scriptua if our doctrinal foundation is not based on the scripture but based on some words that someone haved said? Don't forget what the Berean did "examining the scriptures every day to see if these things were so. Ac 17:11"
This man has a real talent for explaining things clearly and is a fine presenter. Unfortunately he is totally wrong and very arrogant. There are millions of people who have spoken in tongues and still speak in tongues but he knows better. Scripture does not prove cessationism. But if you don't believe in the gifts then you will never experience what the fullness of the Holy Spirit entails. The excesses that sometimes accompany pentecostal and chrismatics are not a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. John Calvin was wrong on several major issues and was involved in burning of at least one person at the stake.
He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not. I have experienced God's miraculous healing power. God still heals. God still speaks. God still moves. God is still great.
God could have freed them from Eygpt, but He sent a man...Moses. God could erase all of our sins, but He sent a man... the man Christ Jesus. As the psalmist said, " What is man that thou are mindful of him..." God chooses to work through mankind to fulfill His purpose and plan. He has done it from the beginning of time, and He still does it today.
Inasmuch that Scripture commands us to test all things, I believe the proper position is indeed to test every claim against Scripture, not to simply dismiss and claims immediately and automatically based on one's own system. The arguments for Cessationism are in their nature circumstantial rather than explicit, too reliant on tradition and in my eyes, non-conclusive (I could add onto that, paedobaptism, Sunday Sabbaths, ritual fasting, etc.). The things that go on in the Charismatic movement nowadays are so immediately recognizable as false, it's laughable anyone would fall for them (and yet so many do). Strange that things on which the Bible is crystal-clear (God's absolute sovereignty, women preachers, homosexuality, etc.) are somehow rejected by some of the same people who hold to some of the above things.
The proper position is to prove EVERYTHING, not just test every claim against scripture. Paul said that a Christian must prove ALL things, not some things or most things. John reinforced this command by saying Christians must test EVERY spirit that claims to speak on behalf of God.
If cessationist believe God can still operate providentially in the world, then how does that providence not extend to God using human hands for his divine work. Your statements are contradictory.
Open, but cautious Cessationist: pick a side. You're not doing anyone any favors by sitting on the fence. I love you, but you will be thrown off the fence by a strong storm if you do not have your feet firmly planted. Read the Bible and see the truth. (I see that Cessationist is supported by biblical accounts)
Why do we need to give a name tag to everything? If you believe the apostolic gifts still operate today, fine. If you don't then that's fine too. This is such a controversial subject that the two 'camps' will never agree on. Seems like childsplay to me.
It's not fine if someone believes the gifts have ceased, because it's heresy. Cessationism is one of the doctrines Paul would've labeled as being an argument that exalts itself against the knowledge of God in the Corinthian letters. It is an attack on the existence of God and the government of God. The day IS going to come very soon when everyone who preaches against the knowledge of God will be made to see their error. You can count on that.
@@HearGodsWord There's nothing to prove because 1 Cor 12, Rom 12 and several other scriptures shows that the gift is first and foremost for the body and there's no cessation until we are perfected at the end. And by the way, there's no such person as 'Peter Bramble'. I hope you now see the real irony I was trying to point you to in this video.
A direct revelation from God is God speaking ("Thus saith the LORD"). God grants wisdom when we pray (James 1:5) , but that means the Spirit helps us use Scripture to make biblically wise decisions. God has already given us His Word written down and we are not to look for a "new" or "fresh" Word from God. Rather we are to apply biblical wisdom from Scripture. If it's a sin, we are never to do it. But a lot of decisions we have the freedom to choose and we don't have to stress about there being a "right" answer. God, in His Providence, is working everything out. We don't have to worry that a decision we made was wrong (unless it was sinful )or stress that a different decision was "better". If it is not forbidden in Scripture and it is biblically wise, then we are free to do what we would rather do and we can rest that God will use it for our good and work out out in His providence.
Taking a shot here from the hip. Wouldn't a "direct revelation from God" be God "directly" revealing something specific to you, that was not revealed to the church as a whole (therefore, not being found explicitly in the Scriptures?) The other would be the Spirit impressing an already declared truth (in the Scriptures) upon your sanctified reasoning or providentially holding or withholding options. Like I said, "...from the hip." Feedback is welcome. However, it really helped me to pause and write this out!
God answering your prayer could be direct revelation from God. If you are praying for a specific thing and God answers you directly and gives you an explicit answer then take it as that, direct revelation
I find it particularly interesting that you as a group desist from making any formal statment regarding the scandal surrounding one of the main/if not the main preacher/promoter of your ministry, instead, you use the opportunity to put out videos to attack those churches/groups/denominations who believe in the active functioning of the gifts without actually providing clear proof, even though the burden is on you. Your choice to deflect only makes me wonder which group is interested more in making a scandal out of the gifts of the Spirit than in the fruit - the cessationists or the continuaists?
While I am a cessationist, I find your arguments against open but cautious cessationism a bit dramatic. We are to test everything, so godly caution is a virtue. The doctrine of cessationism is in fact a man-made doctrine and as such should be treated as fallible. I was most uncomfortable with your appeals to authority, tradition and orthodoxy. While indicative (and probably correct), they are not infallible and should not be used with overly much authority, which is how you presented them. Only Scripture is infallible - and Scripture is not definitive on this subject, contrary to how you presented it. These types of distinctives often become divisions which cause disunity and useless debates. I thought there was already enough division with the continuationist vs. cessationist debate, but now you've introduced yet another division. I don't think this is godly - these are manmade labels. We need to be clear that this debate is about secondary issues and it should NOT cause division in Christ's Church. I, for one, love my continuationist brothers and sisters, even if they are in error - it is not a fatal error. 1 Peter 4:8.
First you must totally show that the apostolic gift of healing was just done by the Apostles. The Apostles were also just disciples building the church. So if the Disciples spread was Jesus taught we should still have the gift of healing now. It was a Command of His to set People Free. Healing was part of the Freedom. Jesus commanded us to Preach and Heal. Is this a command that we can choose not to obey. Jesus sent out His 12 then He sent 72 all healing and setting people free how many people were taught by the 72 and those that learned from the 72etc.. Then Jesus taught 500 after His Resurrection. How many were taught about preaching and healing from those 500. Oh yea, I forgot about the unknown that Peter and John rebuked because they said this man was not from the people that they normally saw following Jesus. What did that man understand about healing and was succeeding? How many were saved or healed by this unknown man. So where in scripture is the apostles died out. But,if they did the gifts of the church have not. The Church of Now Sound like Peter and John. We think we know better because we know Jesus. I contend we don’t know Jesus the way he wanted us to. I believe there has been a remnant that has been here since the Ascension of Jesus. Thomas Boys (1792-1880) an Anglican Priest and Theologian in 1832 published The Suppressed Evidence, or Proofs of the Miraculous Faith and Experience of the Church of Christ in all ages, from authentic records of the Fathers , Waldenses, Hussites..,
Well… as someone who was in the third world as a missionary I can tell you there are supernatural happenings that sure look like the book of Acts. Now why do t we see it here in America? Because we have the Word. To be Biblical you have to at the very least embrace the attitude of expect the supernatural when the Gospel is new to that specific people (as we see in the NT to authenticate the message) and then once the message of the Gospel is there those signs are no longer needed. That is a biblical concept
@@bibleman7757 Umm…first you statement of “most” acknowledges the reality of. Second, I can promise you 100% (as one who did spend quite a while in a third world country) yes supernatural things happens you can not explain.
@@bibleman7757 So let me get this straight. You are saying I am lying. However the obvious times it did happen it was not a question of IF but how. You can’t even say the Holy Spirit is “leading me”. Let me be clear wide and straight with you. Get off your dead over theological religion and actually make sure you are born of the Spirit. I hope Lawson’s fall ( or now he who shall not be named) taught you one thing it is you can have perfect theology and be dead spiritually. To assess to mental truth alone does not save. The devil believe the gospel. Is the devil saved? He makes mental assent to it I’ll promise you that.
@@JonJaeden preterism is a paradigm shift and I didn't move to it without exhaustive study because it'll get you ignorantly called a heretic. It's the only thing that makes sense of OT prophecy and the recapitulation and additional information given by Jesus (and then restated by the Apostles). The long and short of it is that the gifts would cease when the kingdom came in full at the parousia coming of Christ. If the parousia coming of Christ is not until sometime in the future, then the charismatic gifts MUST continue until then. If His parousia coming was in the past (at the destruction of the old covenant age when the holy city, temple and people were destroyed by the Romans, as prophesied, in 70AD) then that would put the charismatic gifts ending in the past. We know they've ended. There's not a shred of evidence today that they've continued. Just a bunch of people holding out hope for the miraculous and no shortage of people trying to fake miracles and take peoples' money...Jesus' parousia coming was in the 1st century. The OT saints were resurrected from Sheol to Heaven and the tree of life is accessible to gentiles for their healing. His reign has no end.
@@JR-rs5qs I didn't see the response. I was just reviewing some of my own comments and it hit me that I had read your original comment completely backward. I subsequently found your response by clicking Newest First under Sort By at the top of the comments. The default for comments seems to be sorted by Top Comments -- that's where most of us work. But for reasons I have not been able to comprehend, UA-cam sometimes doesn't show a comment on the Top Comments view, but instead shows it only on Newest First. It is a great source of irritation. Yes, if the cessationists are going to proclaim Sola Scriptura, preterism seems to be a requirement. I don't know if you've read David Chilton's "Days of Vengence." David was a friend and we even occasionally visited his church in Camino, California. I secured a gig for him as a columnist on one of the local papers.
@@amyscott5415 good question! Unfortunately the Calvinists are incapable of answering because they were made incapable of making decisions from birth as a result of Adam's sin.
Calvin says many are doomed from the womb to die a certain death for God to be glorified in their distruction (institudes 3.23.6) Augustine was a very confused men. John Calvin praised him 400 times in his writing, and even placed his faith in him. But there is NO confession in rependence or placing his faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Calvinism is a FALSE gospel.
The virgin “there’s no miracles and wonderworkers anymore muh personal interpretation” vs the Chad ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH WITH MIRACLE WORKING SAINTS IN EVERY GENERATION
Apostolic gifts have ceased, because there are no more Apostles. And misrepresent the Biblical explanation of NT gift of prophecy (it's not an office, nor new authoritative content, much like preaching). The gifts given to all believers to edify the church, which were functioning in Corinthians chapter 12 to 14, were not for only Apostles. You make a very logical case, and bring in historical figures, but Scripturally the argument for cessation is anemic. Which is ironic since he is using the sufficiency of Scripture as grounds for argument. None of the texts cited are dealing with the gifts of the Spirit, their usage and oversite, in the church their function laid out most clearly in Corinthians 12-14. Misuse of gifts today as in Corinth is no reason to forbid them. The basis by which he forbids miraculous gifts like New testament prophecy or tongues could also be used forbid preaching, which is not the scripture itself it's something additional and often stirs up people's emotions when they hear sound, biblical preaching. dangerous!
Wrong. Its taking God at his Word as the all sufficient source for life and godliness the Bible says. Apparently you dont believe the scripture. What you guys are really demonstrating is doubt or unbelief seeking signs
@@jasonstrange1490 the unbeliever points to Hypocrites in the church and say "nothing to it" the cessationist points to areas of concern regarding "gifts" outlined and say nothing to it. Frankly the burden of proof is on the cessationist since a clear reading of the scripture NEVER says it stopped. Perhaps you can point to where in the Word God (not Calvin) says it stopped. 😉. Indeed Paul laid out how the church is to conduct it self with these gifts 1 Cor, Ephesians etc.
Why make this video brother? And if you feel it is so needed, please build a stronger biblical case. Clearly, gifts like tongues were not merely for validation, because 1 Cor. 14 shows that they are also for the edification of the church. Quotes from ancient saints have no weight to those who only care what the Bible says. The comments about emotionalism is a strawman, the accusation of compromise is meaningless without a strong biblical foundation, and the warning of distraction doesn't make sense if these gifts were used in the early Church and were not seen as distraction then. I have read Pennington and he does not make a convincing case, and if he did, you should bring out the core arguments that you found compelling. Let's hear them brother. Again, why make this video? Can you redo it and beef it up with some solid arguments from Scripture?
I just want to interject that a message spoken in tongues, apart from the message being transated by the person with the gift of interpretation never edified anyone.
Based on the issue Paul was addressing and context, I don't think he was making an affirming statement when he said that. He was making a corrective statement. But aside from that, can anyone be edified without understanding what he or she said?@JonJaeden
Pathetic 😢.... Augustine also held that God created in an instant, not over a six day period.... Calvinism is a tragic heresy....you labor in vain... Lord Lord are words you're 'destined' to utter unfortunately 😢
What was pathetic? What part(s) Arminians are always so angry. No joy in Jesus. Do you crave sign and wonders? An evil and wicked generarion seeks those things, Jesus said. It lacks assurance and trust in Gods Word = faith. Weak faith seeking signs and validation. You want ongoing revelation? Do you want tongues, why?
You guys are trying to limit God to your understanding of the Bible because you are educated and want to control God's people. God cannot be limited and is current. He continues to use people to manifest his wishes today.
@@jasonstrange1490 who knows those controls? Everyone is interpreting the bible according to limited understanding and tries to manipulate others towards their line of understanding. Hence we have so many denominations.
@G3Ministries...."Steve Lawson, a prominent cessationist, was involved in an affair, yet he’s someone you’ve promoted. It seems like you may not fully grasp how this appears. Each time you address perceived heresies while remaining silent on this particular issue, it gives the impression that you are avoiding it and being hypocritical. Perhaps if you emphasized accountability as much as you do when critiquing speaking in tongues, you wouldn’t be facing this. There are many continuationists who have been faithful to their marriages, yet now we see G3 pastors involved in affairs. It seems cessationism doesn’t necessarily lead to holiness any more than speaking in tongues does, does it?" I would like to see you public review teachers in your own house at the same level you hold the rest of the Christian community to account....
Sir. We have no jurisdiction to G3 ministries lests leave to the context of the his church. We do not have that kind jurisdiction plus anyone who have no sin cast a stone first who do we think we are? Watch out for yourselves and take heed less he does not fall. Each everyone of us are capable to fall. Please i suggest to pick up a stone either way who do you think your entitled to throw stone.
@@ashtabs Actually that's not what I am faulting them for. They responded well to Steve. However, they never have shown the same response to Steve as they have other pastors who were in the same situation. They have often gone online within hours and used a pastors sin as evidence they were a false teaceher but didn't do so with Steve, which either suggest they have been wrong and too harsh with pastors they have publicall y shamed for the same sin, or they downplaying how bad Steve is. How can you endorse Justin Peters attacking Mark Driscol within hours of him publically calling out someone for sin, but allow a man you encouraged to have an afaird for years and yet be harder on Mark than Steve
Well Mark Driscoll is well known and notorious false teacher and predator. Steve Lawson has a different case. You meant to say they have the same case? Its only the local church hs to be deal with discipline not and he was removed from leadership position. But he still my brother in Christ unlike Mark Driscoll who is a savaged and notorious ferecios wolves who are still roaming and stansimh on the pulpit,he got a nerve to preach.
@@HearGodsWord Wow, great push back Please share What is my view of scripture and then explain why you in your gnostic wisdom believe it is of a low view of scripture. Go ahead.
@markshaneh you're the one making the complaint, but offering nothing. My comment highlights the deficiencies in your comment. Maybe come back when you have an argument.
Thank you, Virgil. Like yourself, I am a 'recovering Pentecostal' (20 years in Foursquare, 3 in Vineyard, including a year marked by the dubious "Toronto Blessing"). In my experience, the strongest argument against continuationism is the entire Pentecostal movement itself. In my 23 years in the movement, I can honestly say that I never once heard a genuine prophecy, never saw a miraculous healing (including anyone raised from the dead), and never heard any tongues other than gibberish, despite the fact that every church I attended was filled with people who believed in these things, sought these things, were convinced they operated in these things, and taught that these things were normative for all believers. If any group of people should be operating in the sign gifts, surely the adherents of Foursquare and Vineyard should be near the top of the list. Yet their track record is one of abject failure. And if Pentecostals and charismatics have, in fact, been racking up false prophecies, bogus miracles, and fake tongues for over a century, then that constitutes an unimaginable quantity of careless blasphemy -- a possibility that should not be taken lightly.
@@jenkinsbrigade9862 I believe all organized religions have their weaknesses. Even those who say scripture alone, faith alone, do have wrong Interpretations of the scriptures and create wrong doctrines for their followers. I believe in the personal relationship with the Creator. You can fellowship with them but it is not wise to swear allegiance. The Holy Spirit is the one who will interpret what God is saying to you as you read the bible. That's why 1 John 2:27 says that a born again child of God does not need anyone to teach them because they are anointed. Jesus too, said that no one should be called a teacher because there is only one Teacher and we are all children of God Matthew 23:8. What pastors say should confirm our interpretation and not a clever human mind interpretation.
Thank you for the encouragement to stand fast on scriptural sufficiency - very clear, and very much needed in these days.
It doesnt surprise me that most of the complaints come from people who either don't understand cessationism or wilfully misrepresent it
Proclaiming one's basis of belief in Sola Scriptura and being rooted in Scripture, and then failing to produce a single Scripture that either directly states or infers such a stance, seems to me to indicate that one's belief is built on the foundation of tradition.
Not 1 Scripture was produced that teaches the Spirit no longer gives gifts as He sees fit, and that God will absolutely not give certain gifts any more. Because no such Scripture exists.
Such gifts have always been given for a limited period of time, or very sparingly, both in old and new testaments.
Yes the gifts dwindled, even during the life of the Apostles.
But Scripture no where states that God will never again grant such gifts as He deems useful.
I say this completely based on Scripture, having never seen or experienced any such gifts today.
Inference: 2 Timothy 3:1 - 4:8. Paul at the end of his life gives final advice to his young protege. Over time the gifts ceased. His charge was to “continue in what you have learned” and to “preach the word.” Thus, in context, it at least infers that the gifts have ceased and definitely that they are not of importance because they are not even mentioned. The burden is then on the continuationist to show why sign gifts are still relevant to ongoing ministry, even if they are still given. Until that burden is met, it is reasonable to operate under sola scriptura.
@@timkeslar3615 But that scripture you're sola'ing says the gifts continue. And your inference from Timothy is used to construct an argument from the absence of data. That puts the burden of proof on no one else. But while we're making inferences, John, in Revelation, makes no mention of sola fide. We know that this doctine, central to salvation, fell by the wayside in the hands of Rome and was not given its due prominance until the Reformation. So did sola fide cease as the means of salvation?
@@timkeslar3615 no, the one claiming that cessationism is "rooted in Scripture" is the one that bears the burden of proof, which should be easily to prove. Yet every argument given to directly support the claim were quotes from men, not a single verse was sighted.
I believe the charismatic movement has done unspeakable harm to the Church, brings a reproach on the Name of Christ, grieves the Spirit, and is leading millions to hell.
I also believe Jesus could not do many miracles in His own town because of unbelief.
Only fools don't test the spirits to see if they're from God. But I also know the enemy delights in getting true Christians to lean on their own understanding and reason their way out of believing what the Bible actually says.
Were the gifts mentioned ONLY done by the Apostles? Hardly. Yet that claim intermittently shows up in the cessationists arguments.
"Don't eat the fruit AND don't touch it". = NOT God's word.
@@timkeslar3615 "preach the word" would include what he taught the Corinthians about the proper use, and reason for Spiritual gifts.
@@markSummers361very well put!
TRUTH👑👑👑
Modern Cessationists often misrepresent Augustine as an early advocate for their version of the cessation of miraculous gifts. While he expressed skepticism earlier in life, he later changed his view. In City of God (22.8), Augustine states, “Why, you ask, do such miracles not occur now? But they do occur!” He also corrects his earlier stance in Retractions, admitting, “I wrote then that miracles no longer happened, but this was proven false.” Augustine, far from being a strict Cessationist, embraced either the continuation of miraculous gifts or held a moderate view of Cessationism in his later years. The more lengthy quotes below make it untenable to assert that HE believed in the strict form of Cessationism this video falsely presents as being Augustinian. He explicitly retracted his earlier beliefs in his famous work, Retractationes (Latin), where he also developed his most mature writing against a number of heresies and errors. Again, HE believed that such things things continued ongoing to his day. His conclusions, based on firsthand experience, were articulated in his mature writings just a few years before his death. Don't take my word for it, take his:
"Why, you ask, do such miracles not occur now? But they do occur! I myself, when I was writing this very book, knew of a blind man who had been restored to sight. At the same time, in the city of Carthage, a certain woman was healed by touching the relics of the most blessed martyr, Stephen. She had previously suffered from a serious illness… For, even now, many miracles are wrought, the same God who did those in former times still working the miracles, whether by Himself or through His servants as He pleases. These miracles were made known to the people of Hippo, and some of them had occurred even in my own presence."
- Augustine, The City of God, Book 22, Chapter 8 (AD 426)
"Once I realized HOW MANY MIRACLES were happening EVEN IN MY OWN TIME and how wrong I was, I have now corrected myself. I wrote then that miracles no longer happened, but this was proven false. TOO MANY miracles have occurred since, including AT LEAST SEVENTY instances of healing IN CARTHAGE ALONE, where people have been healed of blindness, paralysis, and other ailments. These things happen, and many more in the name of Christ, EVEN NOW."
- Augustine, Retractions, Book 1, Chapter 13 (AD 427) [emphasis mine]
Moreover, Calvin, while clearly Cessationist, also differs from this new form of Cessationism. He was closer to the position that this video criticizes (if not actually there). It's very easy to withhold certain quotes from Calvins commentaries and Institutes and present only the ones that align with this modern view on the cessation of the gifts, but that would be to present a partial and incomplete portrait of his teaching on Cessationism. Below I have provided just two quotes (I can provide more, particularly from his commentary on 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians) that I believe prove his view was not entirely aligned with G3's:
"If we regard the present state of the church, the order that the Lord instituted ought to be inviolate: where prophecy is rare and new revelations are not received, yet those who preside over churches are not to be without the gift of interpretation. [Yet] We do not so reject all prophecy as to count it altogether abolished and gone." - Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV.19.18 (Battles).
"For to some he gave, indeed, the gift of apostleship, to some prophecy, to some evangelists, to some pastors and teachers [Eph. 4:11]. Why should we expect all this to be brought back anew, when there is no need of it? But if the Lord sees it to be necessary for his day, he is able to revive them." - Institutes of the Christian Religion, IV.3.4 (Battles).
Was Calvin cessationist? Absolutely! Was he the type that G3 advocates for? Not if you read Calvin yourself and stop letting these guys spoon feed you church history. You do know you can engage the original sources yourself like you do Scripture right?
Lastly, it's important to note that many prominent Cessationists from the Scottish and Dutch Reformed traditions can be added to this discussion. I can provide ample evidence for this. While you may support the new form of Cessationism, please refrain from revising history to suggest that most figures in church history or the Protestant Reformation held this particular view. Such a treatment is either intellectually dishonest or constitutes poor scholarship, at best. It's enough that liberals revise history, let us not join them brethren.
Amen!
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Thank you. Especially for the sources
Besides the four quotes you provided, please give me some more. I’m trying to research this issue and want more counter arguments. Thank you in advance.
WOW WOW and WOW! Terrific teaching with scriptures. I was a cessationist prior to this video and spoke to my current pastor about my concerns that some of the leaders in our church fall into the camp of open but cautious. I was asked if I believe God can do these things. I of course agreed that God can do anything he wants to. End of conversation. This gives me the knowledge to respectfully refute that. We’re never going to find a church with perfect theology but this seemed like low hanging fruit. Obviously not for everyone. Great job sir! I’ve never seen you before but probably will now.
Read the bible and let dead men rest The authors of the Bible can speak for itself
All men liars and God be true
What a blessing is this UA-cam channel!! It’s such a blessing 🎉
The apostolic era is looooong done. It’s foolish and unbiblical to think they continue
Are you calling Peter and Paul false prophets?
@@JonJaeden not at all. The gospel work they did served its purpose and that purpose has been fulfilled. Thinking that the work of THE OFFICE OF AN APOSTLE is over. There are no apostles around today so no one can do the work of an apostle. Make sense ?
@@CowboyFantastic007 Peter and Paul's particular work certainly ended upon their deaths, but the both said the gifts of the Spirit were given to believers and that it would continue until the end. These were gifts to the churches that the Apostles founded. Nothing in scripture, when these gifts are discussed, suggests their "purpose has been fulfilled."
@@JonJaeden have you witnessed any of these gifts ?
@@CowboyFantastic007 I have witnessed what purports to be these gifts. I am agnostic, though not hostile, to modern claims. I'm not particularly interested in the modern claims. My focus is on what does the Bible say regarding the gifts and what did it mean in roughly AD54 when Paul's letter arrived in Corinth. Until that is resolved, what standard do we have to judge modern claims? My hermaneutic is "it means what it meant," hence the focus on Scripture as opposed to the twisted narratives of the cessationists or the experiences of the charismatics.
Is Calvin the founder of Christianity of Christ Himself.
You keep quoting Calvin and following his life pattern instead of putting Christ ahead...
We follow Christ, not a man!
Calvin followed Augustine and not Jesus.
Nothing wrong in quoting fellow Christians.
Yes nothing wrong with quoting other Christian believer
Calvin wAs an unrepentant murderous sinner.
Why would you even speak of him let alone identify with him.
@markshaneh when was Calvin tried and convicted of murder?
Unfortunately those who believe that the gifts cease to exist, may not experience them because they are closing their hearts to the power of God.
“Despite this clarity”. Quotes Calvin.
I see the effects of this type of thinking/approach in my southern baptist church...Unfortunately, even from the pulpit. An openness to God speaking to us through dreams was a point in yesterdays sermon on Daniel 4. I just shook my head....A lack of understanding and discernment are a virus in the church today.
Did you speak to the preacher about this?
This video shows the idolatry of the Reformed world.
That was very well said, we used to have a crazy prophetess at our church she used to give all kinds of crazy prophecies that sounded like she was just trying to quote the Bible Old testament prophets. Then she got up and said that she had a vision of The giant from Gulliver's travels being laid down and tied up by all the little people and that that was like the Christian church in America and that it needed to be freed. Then I really realized wow Miss lady's off her rocker. Somebody once said if someone's prophesying and it doesn't line up with scripture then it's not valid and if it does line up with scripture it's not necessary. I think that's one of the best explanations I've ever heard for explaining to all these people that are on the fence about the charismatic gifts Ceasing why they're totally unnecessary. There is no need for them because of the Bible. It really makes you wonder if these people know God if they think the holy spirit is doing all this stuff
Thank you!!! I was guilty of openism, and now am encouraged to stand on sufficiency of Scripture and cessationism. Thanks for the encouragement.
I was open to God being faithful to his word
But now
Thanks to this guy who doesn’t believe in Gods goodness and scripture
I now reject Gods goodness and scripture ,
Bravo, we’ll done Satan.
Good and faithful servant
Thank you for preaching that "the scripture is sufficient "
Amen if only people could learn this fundamental truth that the word of God is complete and sufficient what a different Christian Church we would have, Thank you Virgil.
In the Middle Ages while the church argued and debated endlessly over doctrinal issues, Islam, advanced through wars and trade and took over large swaths of previously Christian communities.
Today the American Church is arguing with itself over things Paul specifically said we should not be arguing about while losing the next generation to secular humanism.
Shake my head.
Then do something apart from just shaking your head.
Excellent presentation and explanation. For someone to say, "Jesus spoke in a dream" is a way to draw emotionalism to "get" people to "believe." I respond and say, "Dream on!"
Cessationism is extremely difficult to prove from Scripture. Hence, many reject it.
They act like John Calvin is God
2 Peter 1:19 "And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rise in your hearts,
20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Those who say things like "thus sayeth the LORD" or 'God told me this", unless what hey say aligns with scripture, are trying to add to God's word. This was actually Eve's first sin. She added a word that God never spoke. While it can be implied that they weren't supposed to touch the tree, it is never recorded that God said "don't touch that particular tree."
Excellent! Couldn’t have been said more clearer….Amen
As a theologian this is a definitional issue. The meaning of cessation and those who believe in gifts believe the same thing. I believe in gifts but they operate as God wills. But I don’t believe the miracles ceased. So the devil uses semantics to cause division .
The biggest problem with Cessationism is that there is no clear Scriptural teaching on that. Unlike all other Reformed doctrines, this one does not have any scriptural backing. It is an argument from logic and history and tradition, which is very dangerous in my very humble opinion.
Nevertheless, gifts must not be used to separate the Church which is what Paul teaches precisely in 1Cor 12-14. It is folly to use gifts to separate believers when God expressly forbids it.
Which gifts have ceased? Ephesians 4:11-12? Romans 12? 1 Cor. 12? 1 Cor. 14? I’m genuinely curious.
Cessationists usually say only the "sign gifts" have ceased, but say the others have not. I've been asking for a long time and have yet to get a good answer to this question ... If teaching, helps, administration and other non-sign gifts still exist, how do cessationists distinguish the actual gifts from normal human talents. These non-sign gifts have a miraculous origin too. People in the first century had the ability to teach and administer, so unless the gifts of the Spirit are something different and unique, they're kind of redundent and a letdown. So, how do my cessationist brethren know the real thing?
@@JonJaeden bingo.
@@JonJaedenexactly- this is one of the best answers I’ve read
I believe that an intellectualism is at the root of the Cessation argument. What they have not themselves seen or experienced they will not believe. This video’s arguments is not for middle ground, but for a total ceasing of the miraculous gifts whether prophetic or physical. I ask this question…is the need of the Church today as great as it was in Apostolic times? As we draw closer to the End Times do we not need the reassurance both of Scripture and the gifts? Yes, there may well be abuses, for it has always been so even from biblical times. Yes, there is always emotionalism, but life is not merely an intellectual exercise. I personally do not look to the gifts to affirm my faith, I will continue to believe with or without experiencing these precious glories God offers. Nonetheless, I certain do not deny them for to do so is to deny Romans 12, Ephesians, and 1 Corinthians 12. Surely Scripture is sufficient for our spiritual needs, I would never deny it. But the texts do not deny the gifts, nor do they limit them to the Apostles. Would those claiming differently wish to dispose of the narrative of Acts also? I suspect such deny the Baptism of the Spirit because they have not experienced the Holy Spirit precisely as it is described in Acts 2? Finally, we do not seek the gifts to modify our life trials and tribulations, we embrace them that they will encourage faith in those who need their wonderful healing and guidance power. God bless all, Believer and Cessationists alike.
Prophets no longer exists. We have all we need in the Bible. If someone says I God told me or I have a word from the Lord and it is not followed by chapter and verse with proper exposition then mark and avoid.
AMEN!! Awesome informative video.. “Sola Scriptura” Praise God!!
Thank you for this rational and logical explanation, I appreciate your dedication to the Truth.
Thanks for this video
Excellent and on point! Thank you Virgil for exposing this rubbish!
Well, when it comes to healing, we all agree that God heals today.
I am very curious to see the biblical support for cessationism, especially when proper exegesis is applied and when one does not rely on the presuppositions of a theological System to avoid dealing with verses in context. Surely such strong confidence in cessationism should be match by equally strong biblical support (chapters and verses in context). Ironically and as seen in the comments the truth of cessationism is assumed rather than proven. How is that different from the hermeneutical gymnastics performed by those who abuse gifts, twist verses, or go outside the Bible to justify their positions.
1 Corinthians 13:8
@@Kari_hewitt read 1 Cor 13:8 in context and see when these gifts will pass away. Is there any mention of the completion of the NT? Does the NT fits the description of the “perfect” given by Paul? Do we now know fully as we are known by God ? This interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8-9 has been largely abandoned by scholars as untenable in context. This is not even really a debate anymore despite support by previous generations of interpreters (Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Edwards, Warfield, Walvoord, Geisler, MacArthur, Gaffin). The perfect is related to 2nd coming of Christ and the eternal state as saints are in The presence of God. Unfortunately, this was the best passage for the cessationist view. The only option is to consider the witness of church history, theological issues it creates in theological systems, and experience/ abuses. However how compelling we think that these implicit or extra-biblical arguments are, they cannot be used to override the explicit teaching of Scripture about gifts without a mention of their cessation in this age.
@@alainm6070 absolutely agree, except that I would also consider completeness to come for me personally when I die and see Jesus face to face!
@@alainm6070 Even the "Cessationist" movie steered clear of 1 Cor 13's "perfect." And no wonder ... the Greek used for "perfect" here is derived from the Greek word Paul uses for "the end." And Paul equates the "end" with "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
You need _evidence_ to support the use of Corinthians in this context. Despite the "my 'truth' trumps yours" nonsense of the woke epidemic, we live in a world that functions because of logic and reason - in short, truth.
Evidence is scant for:
o (Biblical) tongues, I.e. unlearned but readily understood foreign languages, in the context of Christian witness;
o frequent healings associated with Spirit-empowered individuals;
o accurate and significant prophesies, meeting Biblical tests;
o even discernment (faithful Christians are often deceived).
I could go on, but you get the idea.
When you add to this the truly horrific origins of pentecostalism at the beginning of the C20th, and its dreadful leaders, and its vile child the 'prosperity gospel' (now leading the poor into even more poverty all across Africa), it's plain to see what is real and what is counterfeit.
The abuses of gifts are sickening and frustrating so I get the draw of cessationism. However, I don’t like the idea of making declarative statements about how God will reveal Himself to His people. I think cessationism is rooted in Western prosperity and freedom where everyone has access and the freedom to read the Bible. The Bible is not the only source of inspiration. There are people on this planet that don’t have access to Biblical truth. Much of the world lives under oppressive regimes that do not allow the Gospel to be preached or access to Bibles. I believe God can and does reach those people through dreams, visions, healing, etc. To take a cessationism point of view is to diminish the work of the Holy Spirit.
👏👏👏👏👏👏 yessir!
I have attempted to listen to this very eloquent presentation on Cessationalism to which l have great issue.
I will only address a few points. 1. What authority sets forth that after the canonization of scripture God no longer moves in the miraculous or gifting manifested at the start of the early church??
2. Cessationalist in my opinion never fully answer the broader scope of scripture on a given topic but take a selected position then gather a body of scripture, not always contextually, correct to support their given doctrinal view. When in fact we all need to take the whole council of God’s word.
3. They never address what Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18… The Apostle Paul spoke of wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers… l could go on and on. Cessationalist are very astute but don’t operate in any true authority.
4. Jesus said signs and wonders shall follow them that believe. Did believing end with the canonization of scripture or the original apostles? Just sayin!!
Finally, l know we have some “nuts and flakes” out there doing and saying stuff in The Name of The Lord that is false and in error. But Eph 4:10-15 speaks of gifts or offices giving to The Church for the “perfecting of the Saints.” Cessationalist will say this is what scripture now does. They are in error on many levels.
I would that God would allow Sensationalist to experience real spiritual warfare and wake up. May The Lord give us all His wisdom and discernment.
I agree with your reference to Hebrews 1, although the Nicene Creed states the contrary with regard to the Holy Spirit. What of James 5: 14-15. Calls for the sick to be anointed and the faith of the sick will heal them
Why is it so wrong to believe that the gifts continue? I understand the extreme charismatic movement is evil. But, is it wrong to believe that there may be small, continuing gifts still happening today?
I agree with your reference to Hebrews 1, although the Nicene Creed states the contrary with regard to the Holy Spirit. What of James 5: 14-15. Calls for the sick to be anointed and the faith of the sick will heal them?
What scripture specifically supports this timeline of “miraculous” gifts ending when the cannon was “completed?”
Warfield, confronted with ongoing spiritual gifts had to adjust him point by saying miracles after the Apostles died were performed by persons on whom the Apostles had laid hands on. On page 22, Warfield states categorically that there is no biblical record of anyone other than an Apostle who did miracles, but what about Ananias who healed Saul? In what way does the 21st century church not need the power of Holy Spirit? Is your supposition a Western Christian view?
I only have a one word response. YUP!
By definition Christianity is a miraculous religion, Christ is still alive in bodily form, that miracle of ressurection being true even now is the foundation of Christian faith.
It is self-evident that extra ordinary gifts, as defined in Scripture, no longer occur. As one example, the gift of healing, scripturally, is immediate, total and unfailing, and was primarily used to confirm new revelation. Today's self-professed healers clearly don't reflect these qualities, especially evident with the visibly impaired, i.e. crippled, maimed and dead. This does not mean that God does not heal directly as he pleases.
Amen!
Hello, Virgil. For the record, I am a Reformed Baptist. Just a couple days ago, I watched REMNANT RADIO who had a Presbyterian minister, Ryan Denton, who at some point, I’m not sure if he is currently, was associated with DESIRING GOD ministry.
Ryan Denton presented arguments, and somewhat compelling, supporting some church fathers and even some Reformers who were continuists. The only one I remember Ryan mentioning was Augustine. You mentioned that Augustine became a Cessationist at a later date in his life, but did not offer any references or quotes. I appreciate the ones by Calvin, but I think it important to include one from Augustine since he was not a Cessationist early on.
Thank you.
@@rhondae8222
Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to offer this information. I just wish Virgil would’ve included some quotes from Augustine like he did from Calvin. God bless, sister.
While I am more cessationist than not (ambiuous enough?), we don't measure truth based on the confusion factor or the goal of pragmatic avoidance of unwanted trends or outcomes (e.g. post mil = optimism, so buy it). We apply pragmatism where we are free to, not on key theology, if revealed in scripture. Eph 2 is useful entry point into our theology, but doesn't answer to apostolic gifts ceasing, so not sure other than church fathers we have a way to confirm this stance. Cessationism seems to be a theology point from silence, which I can understand but don't put much stock in it . But of course I am cautious of people claiming miracles for obvious reasons.
What is the biblical support that spiritual gifts are exercised at will? The prophet speaks when he receives a revelation from God. Moses and Aaron performed most of the miracles associated with the ten plagues after receiving direct instructions from God.
TRUTH
I appreciate Bro. Virgil’s commitment to orthodoxy. However, there are some sweeping generalizations about those who aren’t Cessationists. I believe it limits God’s power to believe He no longer uses His people through outward gifts. I don’t agree with the Pentecostal view that you must speak in tongues or have some outward manifestation of a gift to be saved. That’s clearly not Scripture. However, God IS God. He can and does exhibit His power however He chooses. I have seen and experienced it first hand. A couple things documented. Spiritual gifts in operation also do not have to be tied to “emotionalism.” Prophecy or other gifts do not mean new direction or a new theology. It’s not about validating God’s word. It’s God manifesting Himself how He chooses to show Himself to people. Who are we to say His wonders have stopped? I don’t see how that “relays” or dishonors the foundation. CHRIST IS the cornerstone.
This belief held by pastor Virgil Walker and other calvinists and reformed Christians is why the church in many congregations are powerless and faithless because they are doubting the Spirit’s ability to use believers today as He did in the past. Jesus said when He returns will He find faith on the earth. This should make us wonder why Jesus would make such a statement? I believe it is due to people being filled with fear instead of faith, doubt instead of belief in the Power of God. They quote men instead of God’s word to promote such teachings which are not biblically supported.
The gifts are of the Holy Spirit not just apostolic gifts as Philip’s daughters were given the gift of prophecy as well as Agabus(Acts21:9-13). There were apostles given to the churches (James, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Andronicus, Junias, and Apollos (1Cor. 4:6,9, 9:6, 15:7; Gal.1:19; Acts 14:4,14; Rom.16:7; 1 Thess.1:1, 2:7)
Calvanists claim that scripture teaches cessation and then, instead of quoting scripture, proceed to quote Calvin 🤦🏻🙄
You didnt watch the video
Its kind of like Arminians disagrering with Calvin when they havent read Calvin.
Is Calvin your idol? Is Calvin your God? @@jasonstrange1490
@@jasonstrange1490 just quote Bible. One verse that says that the gifts are no longer in operation. I’ll wait.
Always!!!!!
@@Pilgrim-r6x prove them wrong instead of just complaining
My major question is this we’re does the Bible say prophecy has changed in the NT………we’re does it explicitly say it is not meant to be perfect in NT…..I see it appears different in corinthians chapter 14 but nowhere does it actually say it has changed. This leaves us with the problem of discernment what is true and what isn’t.
This man is saying that miracles cannot happen as a result of laying on of hands, but I was delivered from same-sex desires after such an experience, so what should I believe?
Thank you G3 Ministries, you guys have really been a help for me..
I totally see the point of cessationism, Sola Scriptura must be upheld.
There's definitely no new Revelation we're waiting for and there are no more apostles and prophets (The scripture is quite clear on this)
Though I get the point of Cessationism, and even I am not expecting any of those things.
but I'll be careful to say what the Bible itself doesn't talk about .
That itself is like going against Sola Scriptura.
However, I believe that if God wants to work in ways He wants to, it'll be in line with His attributes as HE Himself is an unchanging God. (i.e if someone claims to have possessed a spiritual gift, it must be in line with what the scripture prescribes it to be)
What I hold on to is the Scripture alone, nothing more, nothing less.
That's doesn't mean I'm a cessationist. I'm a Christian that's all and a Christian should be guided by the scripture alone.
No camps!
All of these argument are from a good place as there are many false prophets out there in the world today (We're not surprised though, The Bible already spoke about them).
Except for regeneration the supernatural Sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit has ceased?
Good Lord….”open but cautious CESSATIONISM” is dangerous?! Why are so many hell-bent on preaching a gospel of extreme cessationism?
Wow, Amen 🙏🏽
I could care less what a MAN SAYS because the Bible Says
Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I consider myself "open but cautious". 😊
I fully believe God can give the same gifts today as he gave to the apostles. However,
I do NOT believe there are apostles today.
God is bigger than our understanding, and if he wants someone to prophesy, or heal, or speak in another (real) language, He can and will if He so desires.
I just have not seen this happen. Most 'prophets' these days are false. Most healings are psychsomatic at best. Tongues, I have yet to hear an actual language.
Does that mean God cant do these things today? Are we limiting God based on our human understanding?
Sola scripture scripture alone Sola gratia grace alone Sola fide faith in God alone
❤Amen.... Good exegesis
Methods have changed , sacrifices and high priests and so on, Christ coming becoming our King and high priest , and one time sacrifice forever, we still have no biblical sign gifts being done or evidence of it, God still heals and leads and convicts, saves and sanctifies, but no one has “ miracle gifts “ in their hands like seen in the scripture
Do you believe people could heal on command according to their own will?
The apostle James disagree with you. He specifically tells lay members to go to the ministers so they could lay hands on them when they are ill, so to claim that nobody has the miracle gifts is an outright denial of scripture. It is also an outright denial of God's government. The fact that cessationists don't see these things or are aware of these things only means their relationship with the true God isn't as good as they want to believe it is.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 so praying for someone means the person “ has the gift of healing ?“ our did God tell us to pray for the person , it is God that heals, we can agree on that can we not !?!?! No one in these days carry it like in the days of the apostles during the founding of the church, we can agree on that can’t we !?!?!
@@KCRookie nope, I believe the apostles were empowered in those times, but in these times we pray according to God’s will , and in Gods providence He answers ❤️
@@KCRookieThat’s word of faith theology. Unbiblical.
Where does the Bible say the gifts have ceased? I haven’t read that. And why is it just the spiritual gifts? What else has “ceased”? The Bible says salvation is a gift, did that cease too? If not, why? To me, you’ve taken the Bible and made it questionable. I believe the entire Bible is truth, the infallible word of God and I’ve got no questions/doubts. I listen to 6, 7 minutes of this video on “cessation”, I’ve got 10,000 questions and strong doubts. 6:46
Hebrews 2:1-4
This brother is using scripture, it's not about Calvin. Maybe you need to listen again, this man is truly teaching, grace and peace.
Respectfully allow me to share my position.
-
I agree with Calvin a lot but I am personally not a secessionist. The always reforming mantra should apply here as Calvin is not perfect, no one is, so it’s important to be open to allow scripture and reality to correct us, scripture above all. There is no explicit passage that states without a doubt that gifts have utterly ceased, and whatever is claimed to be is debatable, just like infant baptism.
We do not need ongoing revelation or experiences, however God is able to do so if He wishes to, just as He did in scripture, for His glory and for the Churches edification.
It is critical to be discerning and to be cautious with anyone claiming to have heard from God, even with your own experiences. A few questions to ask are
1. Does it contradict God’s word?
2. Does it lead us to God or ourselves?
3. Is it self serving?
You don’t have to take anyone’s experience as matter of fact, in fact, if you did not experience it, how do you know if it’s true? That would apply even to the past, there were times where people were lead astray by false prophets, that’s where the above check list can help, and in fact, the gift of discernment. We may not be sure about someone’s shared experience, just as we must look for fruit even in those who confess, but we can always rejoice in the pursuit of God and growth in godliness.
You can be a continuationist and still lean on the sufficiency of scripture. But if someone is sick, we should not be like faithless servants who don’t believe God will or can heal, who refuse to lay on hands as scripture commands. Whether God would give us the grace to take part in a miracle of His should not be out of the realm of possibilities for a God that is always able.
The idea of experiencing God should not have negative connotations. Is God that impersonal that He would dwell within us and around us and yet we would not experience Him at all?? God works through His people, in the exposition of Gods word, in the ministry of evangelism, in the grace given to us to persevere and more. You may not feel Him when you worship, you may not hear a voice, but we can expect the unexpected if we truly forsake all in pursuit of Him. Expect whatever the scripture displays and proclaims as you walk faithfully. Obedience brings reward
“Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
John 14:21 ESV
I don’t believe this is an essential matter or one that should cause divisions among us. I do exercise caution in this area, so as to not be reliant on experience but rather upon the truth of Gods word. As we can sometimes be mislead by discouragement and doubt to believe if we are not “feeling God”, than we are not right or near to God. This is where scripture suffices for us, and we must always stand upon its truth with regards to assurance.
All truth matters but we have to accept we disagree at times, just like we have disagreements on infant baptism among the reformed.
Grace and peace
Your quoting Calvin is Calvin quoting God? Or is he saying that by a revelation of the Holy Spirit? Can we change the word of God? So what is the meaning of sola scriptua if our doctrinal foundation is not based on the scripture but based on some words that someone haved said? Don't forget what the Berean did "examining the scriptures every day to see if these things were so. Ac 17:11"
This man has a real talent for explaining things clearly and is a fine presenter. Unfortunately he is totally wrong and very arrogant. There are millions of people who have spoken in tongues and still speak in tongues but he knows better. Scripture does not prove cessationism. But if you don't believe in the gifts then you will never experience what the fullness of the Holy Spirit entails. The excesses that sometimes accompany pentecostal and chrismatics are not a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. John Calvin was wrong on several major issues and was involved in burning of at least one person at the stake.
I've never met someone who speaks on tongues who isn't a liar and false teacher.
Amen 🙏
He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He changes not. I have experienced God's miraculous healing power. God still heals. God still speaks. God still moves. God is still great.
The Cessationist position isn't that miracles don't happen. It's that there are no men who hold the power to heal.
@@VirgilWlkr it wasn't men who did the healing in the Scriptures either. It was the Lord working through people.
God could have freed them from Eygpt, but He sent a man...Moses. God could erase all of our sins, but He sent a man... the man Christ Jesus. As the psalmist said, " What is man that thou are mindful of him..." God chooses to work through mankind to fulfill His purpose and plan. He has done it from the beginning of time, and He still does it today.
@@AWhite-c7h
Very true
Roman’s 8:28
God works “ together “
Inasmuch that Scripture commands us to test all things, I believe the proper position is indeed to test every claim against Scripture, not to simply dismiss and claims immediately and automatically based on one's own system. The arguments for Cessationism are in their nature circumstantial rather than explicit, too reliant on tradition and in my eyes, non-conclusive (I could add onto that, paedobaptism, Sunday Sabbaths, ritual fasting, etc.). The things that go on in the Charismatic movement nowadays are so immediately recognizable as false, it's laughable anyone would fall for them (and yet so many do).
Strange that things on which the Bible is crystal-clear (God's absolute sovereignty, women preachers, homosexuality, etc.) are somehow rejected by some of the same people who hold to some of the above things.
The proper position is to prove EVERYTHING, not just test every claim against scripture. Paul said that a Christian must prove ALL things, not some things or most things. John reinforced this command by saying Christians must test EVERY spirit that claims to speak on behalf of God.
If cessationist believe God can still operate providentially in the world, then how does that providence not extend to God using human hands for his divine work. Your statements are contradictory.
Justin Peters approve this message.
Indeed I'm sure he does.
Open, but cautious Cessationist: pick a side. You're not doing anyone any favors by sitting on the fence. I love you, but you will be thrown off the fence by a strong storm if you do not have your feet firmly planted. Read the Bible and see the truth. (I see that Cessationist is supported by biblical accounts)
Vanity ultimately leading to idolatry!
Why do we need to give a name tag to everything?
If you believe the apostolic gifts still operate today, fine. If you don't then that's fine too. This is such a controversial subject that the two 'camps' will never agree on.
Seems like childsplay to me.
It's not fine if someone believes the gifts have ceased, because it's heresy. Cessationism is one of the doctrines Paul would've labeled as being an argument that exalts itself against the knowledge of God in the Corinthian letters. It is an attack on the existence of God and the government of God. The day IS going to come very soon when everyone who preaches against the knowledge of God will be made to see their error. You can count on that.
Because it's helpful. It's not childish.
Didn't provide a single scripture to prove your cessationist stand! Well, unless you believe Calvin's position is equivalent to scripture.
Exactly and if Calvin’s thoughts are equivalent to scripture then in this man’s mind that would make Calvin an apostle/prophet
If he's wrong then prove him wrong. Don't just whine and complain
@@HearGodsWord Sure, he's wrong! How do I know? Because 'Peter Bramble' in 1357 clearly taught that the gifts of the Spirit never stopped.
@@EnumahHenry so you're not proving scripture to prove either. Oh, the irony!
@@HearGodsWord There's nothing to prove because 1 Cor 12, Rom 12 and several other scriptures shows that the gift is first and foremost for the body and there's no cessation until we are perfected at the end.
And by the way, there's no such person as 'Peter Bramble'. I hope you now see the real irony I was trying to point you to in this video.
Could someone please distinguish between “new direct revelation from God” and God answering our prayers for guidance?
A direct revelation from God is God speaking ("Thus saith the LORD"). God grants wisdom when we pray (James 1:5) , but that means the Spirit helps us use Scripture to make biblically wise decisions. God has already given us His Word written down and we are not to look for a "new" or "fresh" Word from God. Rather we are to apply biblical wisdom from Scripture. If it's a sin, we are never to do it. But a lot of decisions we have the freedom to choose and we don't have to stress about there being a "right" answer. God, in His Providence, is working everything out. We don't have to worry that a decision we made was wrong (unless it was sinful )or stress that a different decision was "better". If it is not forbidden in Scripture and it is biblically wise, then we are free to do what we would rather do and we can rest that God will use it for our good and work out out in His providence.
Taking a shot here from the hip. Wouldn't a "direct revelation from God" be God "directly" revealing something specific to you, that was not revealed to the church as a whole (therefore, not being found explicitly in the Scriptures?)
The other would be the Spirit impressing an already declared truth (in the Scriptures) upon your sanctified reasoning or providentially holding or withholding options.
Like I said, "...from the hip." Feedback is welcome. However, it really helped me to pause and write this out!
That's a good question.
God answering your prayer could be direct revelation from God. If you are praying for a specific thing and God answers you directly and gives you an explicit answer then take it as that, direct revelation
"Prominent voices have confirmed the cessation of miraculous gifts" is your faith still Sola scriptura?
Vox prominentis
I find it particularly interesting that you as a group desist from making any formal statment regarding the scandal surrounding one of the main/if not the main preacher/promoter of your ministry, instead, you use the opportunity to put out videos to attack those churches/groups/denominations who believe in the active functioning of the gifts without actually providing clear proof, even though the burden is on you. Your choice to deflect only makes me wonder which group is interested more in making a scandal out of the gifts of the Spirit than in the fruit - the cessationists or the continuaists?
While I am a cessationist, I find your arguments against open but cautious cessationism a bit dramatic. We are to test everything, so godly caution is a virtue. The doctrine of cessationism is in fact a man-made doctrine and as such should be treated as fallible. I was most uncomfortable with your appeals to authority, tradition and orthodoxy. While indicative (and probably correct), they are not infallible and should not be used with overly much authority, which is how you presented them.
Only Scripture is infallible - and Scripture is not definitive on this subject, contrary to how you presented it. These types of distinctives often become divisions which cause disunity and useless debates. I thought there was already enough division with the continuationist vs. cessationist debate, but now you've introduced yet another division. I don't think this is godly - these are manmade labels. We need to be clear that this debate is about secondary issues and it should NOT cause division in Christ's Church. I, for one, love my continuationist brothers and sisters, even if they are in error - it is not a fatal error. 1 Peter 4:8.
Who the hell is Calvin look eh ... bye
Bye. You won't be missed.
What? This is being dramatic and extreme
First you must totally show that the apostolic gift of healing was just done by the Apostles. The Apostles were also just disciples building the church. So if the Disciples spread was Jesus taught we should still have the gift of healing now. It was a Command of His to set People Free. Healing was part of the Freedom. Jesus commanded us to Preach and Heal. Is this a command that we can choose not to obey. Jesus sent out His 12 then He sent 72 all healing and setting people free how many people were taught by the 72 and those that learned from the 72etc.. Then Jesus taught 500 after His Resurrection. How many were taught about preaching and healing from those 500. Oh yea, I forgot about the unknown that Peter and John rebuked because they said this man was not from the people that they normally saw following Jesus. What did that man understand about healing and was succeeding? How many were saved or healed by this unknown man. So where in scripture is the apostles died out. But,if they did the gifts of the church have not. The Church of Now Sound like Peter and John. We think we know better because we know Jesus. I contend we don’t know Jesus the way he wanted us to.
I believe there has been a remnant that has been here since the Ascension of Jesus. Thomas Boys (1792-1880) an Anglican Priest and Theologian in 1832 published The Suppressed Evidence, or Proofs of the Miraculous Faith and Experience of the Church of Christ in all ages, from authentic records of the Fathers , Waldenses, Hussites..,
Well… as someone who was in the third world as a missionary I can tell you there are supernatural happenings that sure look like the book of Acts.
Now why do t we see it here in America?
Because we have the Word.
To be Biblical you have to at the very least embrace the attitude of expect the supernatural when the Gospel is new to that specific people (as we see in the NT to authenticate the message) and then once the message of the Gospel is there those signs are no longer needed.
That is a biblical concept
I disagree bigtime time most of those healing are fake and cannot bee seen
@@bibleman7757
Umm…first you statement of “most” acknowledges the reality of.
Second, I can promise you 100% (as one who did spend quite a while in a third world country) yes supernatural things happens you can not explain.
You really need to stop your lying
@@bibleman7757
So let me get this straight.
You are saying I am lying.
However the obvious times it did happen it was not a question of IF but how.
You can’t even say the Holy Spirit is “leading me”.
Let me be clear wide and straight with you.
Get off your dead over theological religion and actually make sure you are born of the Spirit.
I hope Lawson’s fall ( or now he who shall not be named) taught you one thing it is you can have perfect theology and be dead spiritually. To assess to mental truth alone does not save. The devil believe the gospel. Is the devil saved? He makes mental assent to it I’ll promise you that.
You are a lying fool@@CoffeeCoffeeCoffee86
👍
Bias teachers, affirmed by other biased teachers.
Not going to be able to adequately argue against continuationism unless you're a preterist...sorry :/
Hmmmm ... fill me in. It always seemed to me cessationism fared better with preterist assumptions.
@@JonJaeden preterism is a paradigm shift and I didn't move to it without exhaustive study because it'll get you ignorantly called a heretic. It's the only thing that makes sense of OT prophecy and the recapitulation and additional information given by Jesus (and then restated by the Apostles). The long and short of it is that the gifts would cease when the kingdom came in full at the parousia coming of Christ. If the parousia coming of Christ is not until sometime in the future, then the charismatic gifts MUST continue until then. If His parousia coming was in the past (at the destruction of the old covenant age when the holy city, temple and people were destroyed by the Romans, as prophesied, in 70AD) then that would put the charismatic gifts ending in the past. We know they've ended. There's not a shred of evidence today that they've continued. Just a bunch of people holding out hope for the miraculous and no shortage of people trying to fake miracles and take peoples' money...Jesus' parousia coming was in the 1st century. The OT saints were resurrected from Sheol to Heaven and the tree of life is accessible to gentiles for their healing. His reign has no end.
I think I misread JR-rs5qs' statement. Duh
@JonJaeden i responded to you last night. Did you see that? I can't see my response to you in this thread. UA-cam comments section is so bad.
@@JR-rs5qs I didn't see the response. I was just reviewing some of my own comments and it hit me that I had read your original comment completely backward. I subsequently found your response by clicking Newest First under Sort By at the top of the comments. The default for comments seems to be sorted by Top Comments -- that's where most of us work. But for reasons I have not been able to comprehend, UA-cam sometimes doesn't show a comment on the Top Comments view, but instead shows it only on Newest First. It is a great source of irritation.
Yes, if the cessationists are going to proclaim Sola Scriptura, preterism seems to be a requirement. I don't know if you've read David Chilton's "Days of Vengence." David was a friend and we even occasionally visited his church in Camino, California. I secured a gig for him as a columnist on one of the local papers.
Why do you stand firm on what Calvin said and not firm on what the Bible actually teaches? Seems that Calvin has become your true authority.
It is not of calvin, it is from the word of God, with objective and careful study.
@@amyscott5415 good question! Unfortunately the Calvinists are incapable of answering because they were made incapable of making decisions from birth as a result of Adam's sin.
@@guitaretc.485 Human studies without the Holy Spirit will never understand the bible. It was not written for intellectuals, but for children of God.
Calvin says many are doomed from the womb to die a certain death for God to be glorified in their distruction (institudes 3.23.6)
Augustine was a very confused men. John Calvin praised him 400 times in his writing, and even placed his faith in him. But there is NO confession in rependence or placing his faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Calvinism is a FALSE gospel.
Amy, rather than complaining maybe try to bring an argument
The virgin “there’s no miracles and wonderworkers anymore muh personal interpretation” vs the Chad ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH WITH MIRACLE WORKING SAINTS IN EVERY GENERATION
Apostolic gifts have ceased, because there are no more Apostles. And misrepresent the Biblical explanation of NT gift of prophecy (it's not an office, nor new authoritative content, much like preaching). The gifts given to all believers to edify the church, which were functioning in Corinthians chapter 12 to 14, were not for only Apostles. You make a very logical case, and bring in historical figures, but Scripturally the argument for cessation is anemic. Which is ironic since he is using the sufficiency of Scripture as grounds for argument. None of the texts cited are dealing with the gifts of the Spirit, their usage and oversite, in the church their function laid out most clearly in Corinthians 12-14. Misuse of gifts today as in Corinth is no reason to forbid them. The basis by which he forbids miraculous gifts like New testament prophecy or tongues could also be used forbid preaching, which is not the scripture itself it's something additional and often stirs up people's emotions when they hear sound, biblical preaching. dangerous!
Cessationism in my opinion is mere unbelief masquerading as piety.
It turns the Bible into a once-upon-a-time story ... proto-atheism.
Wrong. Its taking God at his Word as the all sufficient source for life and godliness the Bible says. Apparently you dont believe the scripture. What you guys are really demonstrating is doubt or unbelief seeking signs
@@JonJaedenhow so?
@@jasonstrange1490 the unbeliever points to Hypocrites in the church and say "nothing to it" the cessationist points to areas of concern regarding "gifts" outlined and say nothing to it.
Frankly the burden of proof is on the cessationist since a clear reading of the scripture NEVER says it stopped. Perhaps you can point to where in the Word God (not Calvin) says it stopped. 😉. Indeed Paul laid out how the church is to conduct it self with these gifts 1 Cor, Ephesians etc.
1 corinthians 13 says it stops
It so interesting that you guys will not even put the issue being discussed in the title. I wonder why.
That's as weak as judging a book by its cover.
Why make this video brother? And if you feel it is so needed, please build a stronger biblical case. Clearly, gifts like tongues were not merely for validation, because 1 Cor. 14 shows that they are also for the edification of the church. Quotes from ancient saints have no weight to those who only care what the Bible says. The comments about emotionalism is a strawman, the accusation of compromise is meaningless without a strong biblical foundation, and the warning of distraction doesn't make sense if these gifts were used in the early Church and were not seen as distraction then. I have read Pennington and he does not make a convincing case, and if he did, you should bring out the core arguments that you found compelling. Let's hear them brother. Again, why make this video? Can you redo it and beef it up with some solid arguments from Scripture?
I just want to interject that a message spoken in tongues, apart from the message being transated by the person with the gift of interpretation never edified anyone.
@@TerryYancey-p9v Granted, yet the argument still holds.
How does it still hold?@@asureguidetolove8903
@@TerryYancey-p9v Paul says it edified the speaker.
Based on the issue Paul was addressing and context, I don't think he was making an affirming statement when he said that. He was making a corrective statement. But aside from that, can anyone be edified without understanding what he or she said?@JonJaeden
Pathetic 😢.... Augustine also held that God created in an instant, not over a six day period.... Calvinism is a tragic heresy....you labor in vain... Lord Lord are words you're 'destined' to utter unfortunately 😢
What was pathetic? What part(s)
Arminians are always so angry. No joy in Jesus.
Do you crave sign and wonders? An evil and wicked generarion seeks those things, Jesus said. It lacks assurance and trust in Gods Word = faith. Weak faith seeking signs and validation. You want ongoing revelation? Do you want tongues, why?
You guys are trying to limit God to your understanding of the Bible because you are educated and want to control God's people. God cannot be limited and is current. He continues to use people to manifest his wishes today.
God sets the controls for himself. Arminians want to be entertained by the Holy Spirit, you want that showtime religion. You crave more.
@@jasonstrange1490why accuse?
@@jasonstrange1490 Cessationism is the more. It's made up and substituted for the clear teaching of Scripture.
@@jasonstrange1490 who knows those controls? Everyone is interpreting the bible according to limited understanding and tries to manipulate others towards their line of understanding. Hence we have so many denominations.
@molokomack332 no, they are not limiting God.
Don't worry, I'm not half hearted on this. I utterly reject cessationism and affirm 1 Corinthians 12 .
@G3Ministries...."Steve Lawson, a prominent cessationist, was involved in an affair, yet he’s someone you’ve promoted. It seems like you may not fully grasp how this appears. Each time you address perceived heresies while remaining silent on this particular issue, it gives the impression that you are avoiding it and being hypocritical. Perhaps if you emphasized accountability as much as you do when critiquing speaking in tongues, you wouldn’t be facing this. There are many continuationists who have been faithful to their marriages, yet now we see G3 pastors involved in affairs. It seems cessationism doesn’t necessarily lead to holiness any more than speaking in tongues does, does it?" I would like to see you public review teachers in your own house at the same level you hold the rest of the Christian community to account....
Sir. We have no jurisdiction to G3 ministries lests leave to the context of the his church. We do not have that kind jurisdiction plus anyone who have no sin cast a stone first who do we think we are? Watch out for yourselves and take heed less he does not fall. Each everyone of us are capable to fall. Please i suggest to pick up a stone either way who do you think your entitled to throw stone.
@@ashtabs Actually that's not what I am faulting them for. They responded well to Steve. However, they never have shown the same response to Steve as they have other pastors who were in the same situation. They have often gone online within hours and used a pastors sin as evidence they were a false teaceher but didn't do so with Steve, which either suggest they have been wrong and too harsh with pastors they have publicall y shamed for the same sin, or they downplaying how bad Steve is. How can you endorse Justin Peters attacking Mark Driscol within hours of him publically calling out someone for sin, but allow a man you encouraged to have an afaird for years and yet be harder on Mark than Steve
Well Mark Driscoll is well known and notorious false teacher and predator. Steve Lawson has a different case. You meant to say they have the same case? Its only the local church hs to be deal with discipline not and he was removed from leadership position. But he still my brother in Christ unlike Mark Driscoll who is a savaged and notorious ferecios wolves who are still roaming and stansimh on the pulpit,he got a nerve to preach.
@@ashtabs You don't that Steve Lais is different case. His affair went on for five years, and he confessed because he was threatened to be outed
If thats true, it's not the local church is it?
Apostolic gifts? So only the apostles had spiritual gifts?
You have a very low view of scripture.
It would appear that he has a higher view than you.
@@HearGodsWord
Wow, great push back
Please share
What is my view of scripture and then explain why you in your gnostic wisdom believe it is of a low view of scripture.
Go ahead.
@markshaneh you're the one making the complaint, but offering nothing. My comment highlights the deficiencies in your comment. Maybe come back when you have an argument.
@@HearGodsWord
Pussy
@@HearGodsWord
Please refer to the last and above comment.