Hey Ethan, Mike Bellivue from Duelist 54 channel did some videos on bare ball shooting, and he suggested some perod techniques involved very heavy powder charges. He theorised the heavy charge 'floated' the loose ball down the barrel, with the burning gases evenly flowing around the ball's windage as it went up the barrel. His shooting was pretty good too, so might be something in it. Thanks for your video also. Regards, Gus.
Have you considered dropping down to a 0.580" or 0.570" diameter bare ball with the wasp's nest wadding? *Hungry Horse* on the American Longrifles Forum swears by that loose bare ball technique, whereas the *Sapergia brothers* up in British Columbia, Canada on the same forum swear by tightly patched lead balls measuring 0.005" under bore diameter. There's no doubt a lot of experimentation in your future. *Nice trade gun and good shooting for such a new experience.*
Thanks Bruce! I plan on trying all of that. I found that I only had these roundball sizes in my supplies so once I find a mold I’ll be trying smaller balls and patches
Ethan, with all due respect. If you are looking for a load that groups well. Do it from a rest. See what the gun likes. Then go to off hand . Great video like always.
Accuracy testing, offhand? I would think it would be better benched. I have been using bare balls, Criscoed first, swabbing between each shot, with good results. Interesting to see the velocity variation, that will cause lots of issues especially the longer the range. Anyway good to see videos on this subject.
Offhand shooting is a tough prospect, especially when you are dealing with long barrels, iron sights, and stiff triggers. It seems like you are keeping the stock pulled tight against your shoulder, which really helps in steadying the barrel a bit. Thank you for taking us through your experiments with the smoothbore.
It's always a good idea to get used to a firearm. Every one of them fires differently, feels different, and hits the black a little differently. While I see some load building here and some fine tuning I'm really seeing you getting to know your musket. Good on ya! Another great video and another bit of education for the thinking cap! On a doesn't mean anything note, I always opt for the largest ball I can get down the barrel with or without a patch. I feel like it gives me more accuracy even if I cut a patch going loading.
Looks like a fun day. My fusil shoots good with bare ball but for extended shooting sessions I use a thinly patched smaller diameter. Mine likes .595" with a .010 lubed patch. It's a loose fit in the bore, thb starts, but enough to swab the fouling. Accurate enough to cut a few cards on the woods Walk if I can hold still.
Have you ever tried a rifled slug in a musket? The idea has interested me for some time. I have a Browning Auto 5 20 gauge with a smoothbore slug barrel that's an absolute tack driver. This is what sparked my interest.
Watch duelist1954. He shoots a bareless .610 with 110 of 2f and tow wad. That gives him a 3 inch group. He said he found that as a sweet spot in 2 20ga guns. Good to figure it out yourself but use others to get close when you start. Plus it costs you less
Ethan, I am not sure if you have ever heard of Peter Alexander, a Canadian gun builder of excellence. He authored the book The Gunsmith of Grenville County. Sad news is that he passed away in late April of this year. I do not have many contacts in the industry so I am asking if you could pass on this information.
I have a Pedersoli Indian Trade gun, very similar to the gun you have, and I can tell you that mine shoots better and more consistently with a naked ball than a patched roundball. I use 70 grains of Goex FFg and usually cut paper over the top of the ball and it's very accurate out to 30-35 yards.
$500-$600. Very steep price but they really are a significant step up from your common chronograph. A buddy has one and I was shooting a revolver after doing some chronographing of some handloads I scooted up in front of it to take some shots at a different piece of steel. It still picked up my shots from behind me. Obviously not probably as accurate that way and outside of its intended usage but it’s a far cry from a lot of chronographs that don’t work when the clouds aren’t right.
Yep, the clouds, weather, smoke, everything made a traditional chronograph frustrating, and when I make videos that people want to see data , it really stinks to burn my range day for the month and have limited or funky chrono data. To me, it paid for itself already but just working
When I saw "load development" I thought for sure you would up the powder charge a bit. My Brown Bess absolutely is more accurate with a heavy charge, compared to a light charge. I realize you like light charges, but just for experimentation please up that charge to at least 90 grains. Also, if you "chew' (rasp) a ball, it will increase it's diameter, but still go down a fouled barrel as it has some "give". Try your .600" ball chewed and greased over 90 grains of powder. At 25 yards, you should be getting almost one inch groups. At 50 yards three to four inches should be possible, if you bench rest the gun.
Maybe try leather over the powder charge. I do that with shot and seals up the gas rather nicely, might help you with round ball. 5/8 punch works well with mine TVM Tulle
You need enough powder to create the pressure that will "bump up" the ball to fit the bore in order to get best accuracy. Go up 5 or 10 grains at a time until your groups tighten up.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading 90 grains would be more than reasonable. But like the man says, going up 10 grains at a time will work. With a rifle 5 grain increases, with a smooth bore 10 grain increases.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading you have to balance ease of loading as in a ball that's not too tight and one that's not too small to bump up. They shot bare balls over a wad usually cut from an old wool blanket with a wad over the ball to hold it in place. Generally about two calibers under bore size is a good place to start. Say .600 in a 62 caliber bore. This is a soft lead ball that will bump up under pressure. If all you have is harder wheel weight alloy you can use it but it will take a larger powder charge to bump it up. You might try a 610 and see how many shots you can fire before loading gets difficult. It's not a big deal in hunting like it would be in battle. I would start at 90 grains of 2F and go up from there. Shoot off a rest at 25 yards and shoot groups. Watch the group get tighter or larger as you adjust the powder charge.
Ethan, I'm a little confused. For the .60 did you do powder, ball, nest or did you put something between the powder and ball? Also, did you load the .63 the same way?
The bigger ball results make me wonder if so-called "chewed balls" would improve accuracy. That additional .010 certainly slowed the fps more than I anticipated.
Not to promote Duelist1954 anymore (LOL), Mike did a great chewed balls test. He had a bad fall in February and is out commission for a while. The chewed balls vid was popular with his audience who still have an 8th grade mentality, LOL.
I was told to always use a patch and ball when shooting. Never to shoot a bare ball like you did. I assumed it would cause damage of some kind to the barrel. Apparently it won't. So why do it?
Great question, bare ball in a rifle is a no-go, you will fill the rifling with lead. In a smoothbore, bare ball loading is historically documented as a means to load quickly in hunting or in combat. I should have expanded on this further in the video and plan to in the future.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading Thank you for the reply. You said what I was told so I'm not imagining things. I'm going to be purchasing a Kindler this summer. I've asked them if they would mill the wood from cherry trees from the upstate Pa. property. I'm excited about it because it was my parent's place and dad used cherry on the property to build the cabinets in that house. I'm hoping that all goes well with the build because I never built one (figure this is the easiest one). I'll definitely be shooting a patch and ball with it. I do want to build a pistol also and hope Kindler eventually puts a kit together. Have a great day.
Try more powder. My 20 bore lobes a .600 ball in a paper cartridge , with 100 gr FFg or a .610 bare ball on the powder with a wad on the ball [ wool blanket scrap ] Again, 100 gr of FFg Less powder opens up the group in my gun
I enjoy your channel. But I am confused as to why anyone would care what kind of accuracy could be had via bare ball smothbore shooting (??) A smothbore can produce very reasonable groups shooting the proper charge behind a tight patched ball. Perhaps the historical practice was to shoot bare balls (?) but for me, a tight fit in the bore is preferable. But to each his own.
Hey Dave, you hit the nail on the head, bare ball is a documented through history as a quick way to reload while hunting or in combat. I should have touched on that in the video, but wasn't sure if it would be informative. I'm working on compiling research to explain better.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading for some reason the frizzen won’t open all the way when I pull the trigger sometimes with these new flints I have. It gets pretty annoying when it takes 10 trigger pulls for the gun to go off. lol
Shooting an offhand match is not what I mean. To find out where a gun shoots, you have to take the chance of pulling off out of the equation. That's why you shoot off of a bench. You have to fine out where the gun shoots. You can't do that while you're waving the gun around off hand. Wasting ammo and time. If you don't know where the gun shoots your not going to be to accurately off hand.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading I forget the bullet weight but he is useing 90 to 100 grains of powder. A 1873 Springfield with a 500gr. bullet and 70 grains of BP could reach out that far.
How old are you @ jeffmertens9790 ? Ive been shooting for 60 years black powder for 50 years. I've forgotten more than you will ever know about the subject. Seems kinka dumb to make a remark about someone you don't know.
You can't!! shoot offhand and expect accuracy!! You need to take the human aspect out of the equation as much as possible. You need a bench and sand bags!!!!!
Go watch some of Everything Black Powder’s recent videos of his offhand accuracy and then humble your opinion a bit. Maybe knock off the insane exclamation points too. Your entire comment was a wild experience to be honest. A lot going on. Not much of it notable in a good way.
Absolutely sure you haven't followed this channel, and positive you have completely missed the point of the exercise! This dude has forgotten more about muzzleloaders than you know!
Hey Ethan, Mike Bellivue from Duelist 54 channel did some videos on bare ball shooting, and he suggested some perod techniques involved very heavy powder charges. He theorised the heavy charge 'floated' the loose ball down the barrel, with the burning gases evenly flowing around the ball's windage as it went up the barrel. His shooting was pretty good too, so might be something in it. Thanks for your video also. Regards, Gus.
Have you considered dropping down to a 0.580" or 0.570" diameter bare ball with the wasp's nest wadding? *Hungry Horse* on the American Longrifles Forum swears by that loose bare ball technique, whereas the *Sapergia brothers* up in British Columbia, Canada on the same forum swear by tightly patched lead balls measuring 0.005" under bore diameter. There's no doubt a lot of experimentation in your future.
*Nice trade gun and good shooting for such a new experience.*
Thanks Bruce! I plan on trying all of that. I found that I only had these roundball sizes in my supplies so once I find a mold I’ll be trying smaller balls and patches
Ethan, with all due respect. If you are looking for a load that groups well. Do it from a rest. See what the gun likes. Then go to off hand . Great video like always.
Absolutely, this was more of a casual shoot around and test the chronograph
Duelist 1954, Mike B. always shoots offhand too.
Never shot a flintlock before but love muzzleloading, keep up the good videos and good luck on your load.
Hey thanks’
Accuracy testing, offhand? I would think it would be better benched. I have been using bare balls, Criscoed first, swabbing between each shot, with good results.
Interesting to see the velocity variation, that will cause lots of issues especially the longer the range. Anyway good to see videos on this subject.
Offhand shooting is a tough prospect, especially when you are dealing with long barrels, iron sights, and stiff triggers. It seems like you are keeping the stock pulled tight against your shoulder, which really helps in steadying the barrel a bit. Thank you for taking us through your experiments with the smoothbore.
Thanks Richard!!
It's always a good idea to get used to a firearm. Every one of them fires differently, feels different, and hits the black a little differently. While I see some load building here and some fine tuning I'm really seeing you getting to know your musket. Good on ya! Another great video and another bit of education for the thinking cap!
On a doesn't mean anything note, I always opt for the largest ball I can get down the barrel with or without a patch. I feel like it gives me more accuracy even if I cut a patch going loading.
Looks like a fun day. My fusil shoots good with bare ball but for extended shooting sessions I use a thinly patched smaller diameter. Mine likes .595" with a .010 lubed patch. It's a loose fit in the bore, thb starts, but enough to swab the fouling. Accurate enough to cut a few cards on the woods Walk if I can hold still.
Been raining like crazy here in the PNW as well. BTW, Koba thanks for the M1 carbine video, love the M1 carbine!
Have you ever tried a rifled slug in a musket? The idea has interested me for some time. I have a Browning Auto 5 20 gauge with a smoothbore slug barrel that's an absolute tack driver. This is what sparked my interest.
Watch duelist1954. He shoots a bareless .610 with 110 of 2f and tow wad. That gives him a 3 inch group. He said he found that as a sweet spot in 2 20ga guns. Good to figure it out yourself but use others to get close when you start. Plus it costs you less
Hey thanks!!
Ethan, I am not sure if you have ever heard of Peter Alexander, a Canadian gun builder of excellence. He authored the book The Gunsmith of Grenville County.
Sad news is that he passed away in late April of this year. I do not have many contacts in the industry so I am asking if you could pass on this information.
I hadn’t heard this. Thank you for sharing. I’m sorry to hear it
I really do need a trade musket
I have a Pedersoli Indian Trade gun, very similar to the gun you have, and I can tell you that mine shoots better and more consistently with a naked ball than a patched roundball. I use 70 grains of Goex FFg and usually cut paper over the top of the ball and it's very accurate out to 30-35 yards.
Great work! Love that you're using the Garmin chronograph!
It’s the best think I’ve found for traditional muzzleloaders. A no brainer for me and something I will recommend in the future
@@ILoveMuzzleloading What do they cost?
$500-$600. Very steep price but they really are a significant step up from your common chronograph.
A buddy has one and I was shooting a revolver after doing some chronographing of some handloads I scooted up in front of it to take some shots at a different piece of steel. It still picked up my shots from behind me. Obviously not probably as accurate that way and outside of its intended usage but it’s a far cry from a lot of chronographs that don’t work when the clouds aren’t right.
Yep, the clouds, weather, smoke, everything made a traditional chronograph frustrating, and when I make videos that people want to see data , it really stinks to burn my range day for the month and have limited or funky chrono data. To me, it paid for itself already but just working
When I saw "load development" I thought for sure you would up the powder charge a bit. My Brown Bess absolutely is more accurate with a heavy charge, compared to a light charge. I realize you like light charges, but just for experimentation please up that charge to at least 90 grains. Also, if you "chew' (rasp) a ball, it will increase it's diameter, but still go down a fouled barrel as it has some "give". Try your .600" ball chewed and greased over 90 grains of powder. At 25 yards, you should be getting almost one inch groups. At 50 yards three to four inches should be possible, if you bench rest the gun.
Maybe try leather over the powder charge. I do that with shot and seals up the gas rather nicely, might help you with round ball. 5/8 punch works well with mine TVM Tulle
Good idea! I've been reading about folks using leather in the 18th century.
You need enough powder to create the pressure that will "bump up" the ball to fit the bore in order to get best accuracy. Go up 5 or 10 grains at a time until your groups tighten up.
How much would you recommend? I’ll be doing a traditional bench “ladder” day at the range and a bench.
Amen.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading 90 grains would be more than reasonable. But like the man says, going up 10 grains at a time will work. With a rifle 5 grain increases, with a smooth bore 10 grain increases.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading you have to balance ease of loading as in a ball that's not too tight and one that's not too small to bump up.
They shot bare balls over a wad usually cut from an old wool blanket with a wad over the ball to hold it in place.
Generally about two calibers under bore size is a good place to start.
Say .600 in a 62 caliber bore.
This is a soft lead ball that will bump up under pressure.
If all you have is harder wheel weight alloy you can use it but it will take a larger powder charge to bump it up.
You might try a 610 and see how many shots you can fire before loading gets difficult. It's not a big deal in hunting like it would be in battle.
I would start at 90 grains of 2F and go up from there. Shoot off a rest at 25 yards and shoot groups. Watch the group get tighter or larger as you adjust the powder charge.
👍 Good video. Thank you for sharing your day at the range.
I hear Scott’s voice in the background! Cool video.
Number one rule of ml after powder first ball last is always slow down
You love Muzzleloading and I love you!! ❤
Love the swag. Keep on keepin' on!
When I'm not using paper cartridge and a smoothbore this is the only way I load great video as always Ethan
Signed, Other Ethan
Question: Wouldn't a patched ball load be better?
What kind of cleaning rod is that?
In Charles Hansen’s book on the Northwest gun he said that almost all of the guns were 24ga yet everyone has a 20ga. Your thoughts.
Modern tastes don’t always line up with historical records
@@ILoveMuzzleloading Well said and so true
Ethan, I'm a little confused. For the .60 did you do powder, ball, nest or did you put something between the powder and ball? Also, did you load the .63 the same way?
The bigger ball results make me wonder if so-called "chewed balls" would improve accuracy. That additional .010 certainly slowed the fps more than I anticipated.
Was reading accounts of the chewed balls this morning. Very interesting stuff
@@ILoveMuzzleloading Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Only one way to find out.
Not to promote Duelist1954 anymore (LOL), Mike did a great chewed balls test. He had a bad fall in February and is out commission for a while. The chewed balls vid was popular with his audience who still have an 8th grade mentality, LOL.
Where you getting your RBs ?
I was told to always use a patch and ball when shooting. Never to shoot a bare ball like you did. I assumed it would cause damage of some kind to the barrel. Apparently it won't. So why do it?
Great question, bare ball in a rifle is a no-go, you will fill the rifling with lead. In a smoothbore, bare ball loading is historically documented as a means to load quickly in hunting or in combat. I should have expanded on this further in the video and plan to in the future.
Bare ball is a common and historical load in a smooth bore. Sometimes it's the most accurate, sometimes not, depends on the individual gun.
@@ILoveMuzzleloading Thank you for the reply. You said what I was told so I'm not imagining things.
I'm going to be purchasing a Kindler this summer. I've asked them if they would mill the wood from cherry trees from the upstate Pa. property. I'm excited about it because it was my parent's place and dad used cherry on the property to build the cabinets in that house. I'm hoping that all goes well with the build because I never built one (figure this is the easiest one).
I'll definitely be shooting a patch and ball with it. I do want to build a pistol also and hope Kindler eventually puts a kit together.
Have a great day.
@@kneyork9930 How is the ball held in the barrel? Is there a wad in front of it to keep it there?
@@beebob1279 Lots of ways, usually a wad or "anything" over the ball.
What's the latest on the woodsrunner??
Been carving on it, I have 4 hours of carving footage (out of 10 hours of carving) I’m editing now. Update soon . Thanks for your patience
👍
Try more powder. My 20 bore lobes a .600 ball in a paper cartridge , with 100 gr FFg or a .610 bare ball on the powder with a wad on the ball [ wool blanket scrap ] Again, 100 gr of FFg Less powder opens up the group in my gun
Interesting!!
My results exactly. My Brown Bess is most accurate with a heavy load.
Is this the Pedersoli Indian Trade gun?
I enjoy your channel. But I am confused as to why anyone would care what kind of accuracy could be had via bare ball smothbore shooting (??) A smothbore can produce very reasonable groups shooting the proper charge behind a tight patched ball. Perhaps the historical practice was to shoot bare balls (?) but for me, a tight fit in the bore is preferable. But to each his own.
Hey Dave, you hit the nail on the head, bare ball is a documented through history as a quick way to reload while hunting or in combat. I should have touched on that in the video, but wasn't sure if it would be informative. I'm working on compiling research to explain better.
Where do you buy gun flints? Seems like every shot it goes off lol
I have an old bucket of them I don’t know where they are from. Good lock geometry is key
@@ILoveMuzzleloading for some reason the frizzen won’t open all the way when I pull the trigger sometimes with these new flints I have. It gets pretty annoying when it takes 10 trigger pulls for the gun to go off. lol
Sounds like your flints are too long, might try cutting a notch in the rear of them to go around the screw to get them back far enough
@@ILoveMuzzleloading thank you for the answer. I just spent the last hour or so tuning my flints to my lock with a knife as my knaping hammer lol
It just me, or does that gun have a slow lock?
Shooting an offhand match is not what I mean. To find out where a gun shoots, you have to take the chance of pulling off out of the equation. That's why you shoot off of a bench. You have to fine out where the gun shoots. You can't do that while you're waving the gun around off hand. Wasting ammo and time. If you don't know where the gun shoots your not going to be to accurately off hand.
I think you said you shooting in 25-yards. That is not a very good grouping for that range
i know a fellow that is shooting a 45 caliber mussleloader out to 1,200 yards.
Wow!
@@ILoveMuzzleloading I forget the bullet weight but he is useing 90 to 100 grains of powder. A 1873 Springfield with a 500gr. bullet and 70 grains of BP could reach out that far.
Why offhand for accuracy testing…it has no validity…
I’ll be doing a traditional bench “ladder” day at the range and a bench.
How old are you @ jeffmertens9790 ? Ive been shooting for 60 years black powder for 50 years. I've forgotten more than you will ever know about the subject. Seems kinka dumb to make a remark about someone you don't know.
You can't!! shoot offhand and expect accuracy!! You need to take the human aspect out of the equation as much as possible. You need a bench and sand bags!!!!!
Been saying this myself, I'm planning on doing a supported musket test this coming fall or winter.
So that’s what I have been doing wrong all these years in all those matches where they force you to shoot offhand 😂
I’ll be doing a traditional bench “ladder” day at the range and a bench.
Go watch some of Everything Black Powder’s recent videos of his offhand accuracy and then humble your opinion a bit. Maybe knock off the insane exclamation points too. Your entire comment was a wild experience to be honest. A lot going on. Not much of it notable in a good way.
Absolutely sure you haven't followed this channel, and positive you have completely missed the point of the exercise! This dude has forgotten more about muzzleloaders than you know!
Guys, “testing” can’t keep from laughing, from STANDING is not testing the ACCURACY. So this is all silly.