Vintage Mountain Breeze ioniser / ionizer teardown.
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2013
- This is a disassembly and technical insight into an old Mountain Breeze negative ion generator. These units impart an electrostatic charge into the air like static electricity that causes any airborne pollutants to precipitate out to adjacent surfaces.
This unit was made in Britain, possibly up to 30 years ago, but is still working fine although it had a slight technical issue when I first got it, namely the neon indicator failing. That was quite a common problem with that model, and it's quite odd that they failed in that manner.
Units like this tend to generate a high DC voltage at very low current using a Walton Cockcroft voltage multiplier to step the mains voltage (220 to 240V here in the UK and Europe) to several thousand volts DC which is then applied to sharp needle points. The air at the needle points takes on a negative charge and is repelled from the unit into the room. It imparts it's charge onto pollutants in the room that then precipitate out to surrounding surfaces. The running costs of these units is extremely low. Literally a few pennies a year. - Наука та технологія
Hi Clive, we used to have several ones at my parents house ('70's) Every bedroom had one. In the living room we had a model F-400 which had a fan.
Recently i found one again with rusty needles. Opened the case thanks to your help. Tried to clean them with my dremmel but broke one. After reading your comments on questions here i managed to solder a new (sewing) needle in.
As i recall there was some kind of testing device that you could hold in front of the ioniser and it would lit up... but maybe i am mistaken about that.
Anyway just wanted thank you for the great video's you make !
The ionoscope was a small capacitor with a neon across it on a PCB. You held one end of the PCB in your fingers and the other end near the needles, and the neon would pulse faintly.
And the search to find Clive’s earliest ionizer video continues. 😊
I used to work at Mountain Breeze on the Pimbo Industrial Estate in Skelmersdale in the late 80s.
I used to silk screen print the circuit boards and press them when they were returned following the copper stripping.
I also assembled the boards and cut the resistors and capacitors.
The company was run by Transcendental Meditators.
Great days!
Still one of the best ionisers. I have one on continuously in my bedroom.
zanderzoot So TM really did expand as far as Britain before the end of the 80s, interesting factoid.
Thanks zanderzoot , my aunt started the trend of owning one. The Mountain Breeze my close family owned was used in my shared bedroom, I loved the cute little miracle device.
ps...I'm now an Electronic Engineer
I had one of these Mountain Breeze Ionisers but mine had little brushes instead of needles . It left dark marks where the ioniser was situated. Purchased sometime in the 80’s. I used to enjoy touching the brushes lol
"Mountain Breeze" was a Liverpool firm that was based in Skelmersdale, West Lancashire. I had two and they probably live in a very full loft but they are superb and I am so sad I can neither find them nor buy another. Iwent to Switzerland a few years ago for a wedding and which was in the alps. It smelt of the Mountain breeze ioniser! That was what I was told when I bought it in 1987. They were right. Thank you for your postage
They do turn up on ebay from time to time.
+bigclivedotcom there is actually a little bit more to the story of how why and where they were made. pifco acquired them quite late on.
Every ionizer that I've seen here in 120V mains land uses a potted potential multiplier, probably to reduce losses due to tracking across components and corona as those are some of the main loss mechanisms IIRC.
The 1N/2N series of part numbers uses the first number to denote the number of pins on the device, where the first number is the number of pins minus 1. i.e. diodes are 1N, transistors are 2N and tetrode transistors are 3N.
FYI: Fresh Air by Ecoquest runs 5 KV for the pin(s). And 25-30 KV for Ozone generation mode.
Also, I've been doing research on these for a few weeks. POSITIVE ion generators create much much less ozone for a given current. However, positive ion generators (used in industrial cleaners called "Electrostatic Precipitators") use two plates. That is, they charge positive ions, attach ions to pollution, then attract them to a ground plate. (Sometimes also having a lower high-voltage accelerator plate in the middle to assist.) Whereas, the home ones, use negative ions (basically because of the fresh scent of a thunder storm), and let the "ground" plate be your floor, your walls, and any other surface they land on. So the home ones just spew negative ions into the air and hope they catch things. While the industrial ESPs send air through a tunnel (like a normal air filter).
Also, ionizers DO create harmful amounts of ozone if you set them to too high of a level (Fresh Air by Eqoquest, you set it to a square-feet of your house and NEVER beyond.). Consumer Reports did a study and found TONS of harmful levels of ozone being produced by most of the ones (like featured here) for the products that don't have fans. The fanned models tended to be much more behaved and within FDA/EPA (or whatever) limits for ozone.
www.consumerreports.org/content/Pressroom/Presseng/PDF/eng0505cln.pdf
consumer reports sold out..epafda levels of ozone are too low.
ozone in air=never sick
but at low levels
.005 ppm of ozone is detectable to most humans.
.001-.125 is in the atmosphere.
Jump hear
LA sounds the smog alerts at 1.25 ppm
Jump
3 hour exposure at 12ppm fatal to guinea pig.
50ppm expected to be lethal to human.
www.ozoneservices.com/articles/007.htm
If it's the little potted cubes then it may actually be a thyristor dumping a cap through a step up transformer followed by a diode and cap. Cheaper to make, but not as reliable as a multiplier. Some older American ones use a chunky mains step-up transformer and then a multiplier.
I bought one of these on eBay recently for £15. Working well and I can feel the slight air movement on the back of my hand held close to it. Mine has a red LED for power indicator which still works fine (the top of the case in that area gets very slightly warm after several hours), but is otherwise identical. I haven't opened it yet, no need to.
Magdy Kamal
Very nice to explain the internal detailes thanks
Can you check the voltage with a (home made?) HV probe?
I had one of those...purchased around 1985? I was under the impression that they were manufactured by a small company by the name of...'Mountain Breeze' but I may be wrong. I saw them demonstrated at a Rabbit show believe it or not - they were trying to promote their use to animal breeders - to keep the air clean in fanciers sheds. Mine however was used mostly in the house, but it did make the wall behind it very dirty...the potted plant left an outline on the wall! I don't know where it is now - lost in a house move I fear. :-(
hi Clive, just wondering, if you isolated from "🌍 " ground, could you then have a connected collector several feet away as a place to collect the dust, sort of like electrolysis but in air, or am I misunderstanding the principles. if it would work I might use sweeping brush as the emitter and the dust pan as the collector and I'd never use my hoover again :-))
Hi bigclivedotcom, I was studying your guide on making an ionizer (the version with 30 of 100nF caps is the one I intend to make). What diodes are you using with the mentioned caps? 1N4007s or Schottky ones? And does this somewhat affects the ionizer's efficiency?
At the low mains frequency the standard 1N4007 diodes are the best option.
what hone would you recommend for resharpening the needles?
+test7er They don't have to be be super sharp. I scrape them with a fine file to create lots of sharp ridges.
Would a needle with something like a many-pointed star shaped cross section work better than a conventioanl round shaped cross section needle? What about a steel plated hedgehog?
+test7er You can make a cluster of needles, but with the natural current limiting nature of the circuit the voltage will tend to sit down on the most efficient needles and they will emit most ions. Also check out my video on making a carbon fibre emitter.
Hi mate, like your videos and this device. I'd really like to make this device portable by modifying the circuit from insect racket zapper. Since I'm a newbie in HV electronics, how should I modify the mentioned circuit? From what you've mentioned in the video it consumes a negligible ammount of power, so my old batteries should kick in this application similarly as Joule Thief, therefore cleansing the ambient air instead of polluting it. Thanks in advance and cheers from Croatia!
Question? I was cleaning my ionizer machine and lost 2 needles? Will still work, can you replaced them., are the needles welded?
Tia in advance!
It will still work fine with two needles. You can solder new ones in, but they have to be the thinnest stainless steel pins you can get.
Thanks for your reply, but are these needles to be welded in, or just push into. To me it seemed that you can just pull them them out, or pushed in.
Some modern ionisers have sockets for the needles. But most have them soldered in.
Thanks for replying. You seem to know about these things, thanks again.
I will give it a try to the machine. The impression I had with the machine I have, was that the needles coudl be pushed in, or pulled out.
@@cucuca7281 You appear to have an Australian Elanra ioniser.. the emitters in these are removable / replaceable.. Elanra charge a high price.. I think they are pins of about 0.6mm diameter, about 12mm long (they only just stick out from the face of the needle apertures) - so a set of pins and needles will usually contain a few of suitable diameter.. just cut them to length with pliers.. cleaning them with a matchstick will have them fall out. Elanra’s founder had a sharp eye for profit - his goal was for people to buy new needles and replace them 4-5 times each year.. madness, wholly unnecessary.. much as cleaning the emitter tips is a good bet.
yep, got one 03-88 on the bottom, working since I got it :D
it collects a lot of brown gunk on the wall next to it from my smoking.
I remember when I bought it I got some sort of test strip thingy with it.
it lights up the neon when you get close to it? lost it..
Used to be made in a town called skelmersdale in the north west. I used to get loads of electronic parts from them in the 80s
how many kilovolts is the circuit
It's hard to measure. It also varies with efficiency of the emitters.
Hi Big Clive, have you ever checked the deposited dust with a geiger counter?
No probs. The Scottish have a strong affinity with the Australians anyway.
seems to be hard to find. only one that looks good are ones that look like a transformer with 3 holes out the top .. with a do not touch holes warning . being so small not sure if they would be that simple as something bigger but I've looked around. Keyword though is Vintage. If you don't stick that word in there you probably won't find the better ones. Does remind me of one thats nearly $300 but it relies more on heat as well from Hammacher Brother has one, with has a fan , Ionizer and UV light all included. (and one very thick air filter)
When tvs were hybrid , tube and solid state they used high voltage triplers. That multiplied the voltage from 6,000 vac up to 18,0000 vdc. The picture tube CRT. Was also a big capacitor which stepped up the pulsating DC by filtering it like a electrolytic does which brought the voltage up to 25,000 vdc. This voltage accelerated to electron beam from the cathode to the front of the CRT to strike phosphor . The triplers setup is similar to the diode capacitor configuration of the ion device in this video.
If I wanted to build one of these for North America voltage, what would I need?
+Chris Roller Personally I'd start with a small transformer to boost the voltage up to 240V in the unit. Possibly using a standard 120/240 transformer wired as an autotransformer. If using an isolated transformer the 240V secondary would need to have one end connected to the mains side for the ionisers return path. Then it would just be the same as in this unit. A 22 capacitor (or more) multiplier with 10nF capacitors and 1N4007 diodes and the high voltage and high value resistors on the output for safety.
+bigclivedotcom I need to seek your guidance again on this (sorry if all of my comments are getting annoying). I went out yesterday to get the parts I'd need for this, and my local electronics shop had everything that I would need to build one of these (whee!), except, the smallest 110/220 transformer they had was this 40$ monstrosity rated at 50 watts, which I imagine (given your description of the power consumption of the device) is massively overkill). I did some rummaging around online for something a bit smaller and only found even huger transformers. Any advice on a source for something a bit more realistic?
+Chris Roller A step-up transformer from China? www.ebay.com/itm/321802306749
Or perhaps this might work... www.ebay.com/itm/111839580900
I'm not sure how well it would work to just keep extending the voltage multiplier circuitry to compensate for the lower voltage as an alternative to the transformer.
+bigclivedotcom Oh, they had those little wall warts at the shop. Wasn't confident they'd do the job, but that's easy enough. I'll try that. I'll also experiment with extending the multiplier, as the most cost effective way to get the necessary components leaves me with enough to do a 120 cap multiplier. Thanks for your help/advice!
+Sean Ache I haven't put the components together yet, got distracted by another project. It looks like it should actually work on 110 with 35 caps in multisim, but I'm not too sure if it's handling the multiplier properly.
Is it possible that the reason for the sheet of plastic is because the first versions were housed in metal enclosures? Just a thought.
Aadil Shah You can't really make ionisers out of metal as it would affect the ion flow from the unit and stop them working almost completely if it was grounded.
*doh* That makes sense!
bigclivedotcom u
Do you have any idea of where I can get one of there? They seem really good and much better than the newer ones, Thanks
+Thealarmboy To the best of my knowledge the only place you can get original Mountain Breeze ionisers is on ebay (220-240V units) The only current manufacturer of this traditional style of unit is Astrid I think.
bigclivedotcom Ok, thank you :)
Question... i found and bought an old clearAir ioniser and its a small unit 7 x 3 x 1- 3/4 rated at 2 watts, i plug it in and it hisses and buzzes, and a tiny breeze is emitted from the needles, then after 2 minutes the hiss dies down and it crackles quietly, with little breeze coming off the needles. However if it touch the top of the unit the hiss returns and so does the breeze..... measuring the output when its hissing is 50mA- 1200mA on my multimeter , is this normal?
If you were using a current test to ground and getting that off the needles it would be worrying. It's more likely a voltage reading? The hiss is normal and it does often die down as the surroundings charge up. It's best to have these units at the edge of a table with the needles pointing over the edge.
bigclivedotcom sorry yes my mistake mV and thats with the test probe an inch from the front of the unit 600/1200mV and around 4 inches away reads anywhere from 20-60mV
I took your advice and had it sitting half off the table to keep the table from grounding out the ionic charge. The ground lead on the multimeter is grounded on the radiator 2 meters away from the unit.
Thanks Big Clive. I was about to throw my vintage 80's ioniser [exactly like this one] away thinking it couldn't possibly still work but will now put it in my daughter's room as she suffers from asthma and other dust based allergies.
The test is to put it on a white sheet of paper and then check in a few days. If it's precipitating fine particles out of the air there will be a dusty outline around the ioniser on the paper when you lift the ioniser off it.
How big of a room can it clean? Do I need one per room
I just use on in my bedroom and at the other end of the house.
man you're a awesome (and naughty tedy bear).
Do you got a Bionaire lp 1500 close as you btw? i find one (not buy and not see personally) and looks a bit old (think 1995), do you know something about this one?
where can I buy one of these air ionizers? do you have any for sale clive?
This is the one I had that burnt out after a couple of years. Wish I had known what the fix was!
Often failure of the neon indicator's resistor blowing a track off the PCB. Easy fix if you know what to bridge.
for this ion tool, the space capacity needed is wide, thank you
Dave Jones' EEVBlog has a nice video explaining the Cockcroft-Walton multiplier ua-cam.com/video/ep3D_LC2UzU/v-deo.html
You're right. Ozone being harmful is like carbon dioxide being harmful. In small quantities, CO2 is quite natural, but if the percentage is too high, it's going to "crowd out" your ability to absorb some O2 into your lungs, as well as make it more difficult for CO2 to diffuse out of your lungs. I'm sure ozone's behavior is a different mechanism, but it too is natural because it's produced by thunderstorms all the time, but does not produce lethal amounts.
Ozone is neither a dangerous nor a safe gas. It's all in the proportion; which is unfortunately being ignored nowadays, in our increasingly binary-thinking society.
Landrew0 - Total horse shit. O3 makes free radicals. They kill you.
See a physician.
That's complete bullshit, ozone is poisonous, so it sterilizes water and air, but it is also unstable. You can't breathe it safely, but it does not corrupt your DNA.
Ozone is the best :D, way more safer + ecofriendlier than chlorine gas xD
you are correct. people poop their pants when you mention the word. disgusting
Wanna see this in work.
Doesn't no transformer mean it's not isolated and much more dangerous?
The output is limited to an extremely low current by the final resistors. The direct generation of the high voltage by multiplying the mains is simple, efficient and reliable.
Does the amount or length of the needles affect how they work?
I wonder if Van de Graaff air ionizers exist...
if i built a 1000 foot van i could carry all my belongings
WE HAD THIS VERY ONE!! I used to ping the needles!!!
There are no 'air' molecules as air is a compound of gases. Maybe it latches to the H2O water molecules in the air releasing O2- and H+ or something like that ?
Scottish.
Hi Clive,
Sorry to query on such an old Post but as someone who is in poor health I'm looking for such a beneficial air purity device to place in the room that I spend most of my time (living room). I'm located here in the USA so my question is.... "Is there such a simple and beneficial unit that would work on 110 vac/60 hz that you're aware of"? BTW - I'm still able to do repairs and/or mods. if need be
Thanks for any info !
Roger (W9RHS)👍 ☺
@@rogersmith9808 you only gonna need to power it from 110V:220V step up transformer(220/110 Step down is same)
Maybe adding a fan would have been smart. Duh.
there used to be a model F-400 that had a fan
il existe plus quel dommage pratique de petite taille
Clive, why do you push carcinogens?
Ozone is neither a dangerous nor a safe gas. It's all in the proportion; which is unfortunately being ignored nowadays, in our increasingly binary-thinking society.