You're just salty cause they're the only show that didn't suck up to the leafs even though they're leafs fans. Tim and sid aren't afraid to go on a rant about any team.
Bobs the goat... the rest of this panel should just be taking notes... but buddy in the purple tie is too busy on his cell ordering some skip the dishes...
Nylander = Overpaid by 500k by Dubas Matthews = Overpaid by 500k by Dubas Marleau = 6.3 million 4th liner via Lamoriello. Zaitsev = 4.5 million 3rd pairing D via Lamoriello. Whose mistakes will hurt the Leafs more next year?
Yeah no. Matthews is a MASSIVE overpayment. At 11.6 mill he's the second highest paid player in the league, and he had 70 points for the first time in his career and was invisible (again) for game 7. Leon Draisitl gets 8.5 for the next 6 years and he just had 50 goals and 105 points as a 22 year old. Sorry but Matthews should be at 7.5-8 mill very most and Taveras at 9.
matthews was the best forward for toronto in the playoffs. matthews and tavares could have gone to many teams for more than what they signed for in toronto. you don't know much about hockey, the nhl, economics, or finance in general. stick to playing house league and watching pavel barber videos.
You mean not signing Tavares makes it easier to sign your home grown guys? Gasp! It like I was saying that back on July 1st..oh wait I was. I mean Bob's right, it would be a slower build but you keep the band together. It's easy for me saying it as a fan and not a GM of a team, especially in a market like TO and especially when they haven't won in forever, but it was/is the truth.
Agreed about Tavares. As well as he played, and I know people think he could have got more elsewhere, the Leafs could not, and cannot afford Tavares, Nylander, Mathews, and Marner.
It’s pretty simple really. If you don’t pay the top players then they’ll go somewhere else. I have no problem with the Nylander deal. If he bounces back next year it will be a good contract. It’s not complicated. If you want the talent you have to pay and make it work within the cap.
It's confirmation bias. A lot of the people saying the Nylander deal is terrible are the same people who were saying to trade him for a shut-down defenceman going all the way back to July 1st when the Leafs signed Tavares. And now they still want to trade him for a top 4 d-man, even though they claim he sucks and is way over-payed.
I said all along that the deal that would really handcuff the Leafs would be the Marleau signing. They should never have signed Marleau, and I have great respect for the player and the man. From a business standpoint and a developmental standpoint, signing Marleau for three years and 6 million per year - taking away important ice time from a young player to develop and then not being able to make a deadline deal for another defenceman prior to the playoffs this year sunk the Leafs. They rolled the dice on Marleau, wrongly believing he might get them a cup. It didn't seem like it might be a cap problem at the time. Then they got really lucky signing Tavares. Next year was going to be their year regardless, if Lamoriello had stayed the course. Now, even that scenario is in jeopardy! The Leafs may now be destined to be a good team for quite some time, just not a championship team. Thanks Lou!
You can stop at putting Lou's name in there for being a tough negotiator, he gave Z a 7 year 5 plus mil deal. Was that a good deal? It's worse then Nylander's.
At least for the Leafs, Nylander's cap hit per Spotrac from 2019-20 until 2023-24 is $6.962M and the Salary Cap is going to grow to a degree between now and then for three reasons. - First, the NHL is actually doing a good job year-over-year at generating revenue. Revenue from 2017-18 was up 63.3% from 2007-08 per Statista. - Second, Seattle's NHL team is joining the league in 2021-22 which should increase HRR. - Third, the television deal in the United States is up in 2012-22 with NBC Sports. In the current TV deal, the NHL receives $200M a year from NBC Sports, and that's likely to grow to around $220M-$250M from whatever broadcast partner(s) the National Hockey League works with. Which does affect HRR, and affects the Salary Cap. If Nylander had a cap hit of $6.962M this season instead of $10.2M, that would rank for 30th among all forwards in the NHL in front of Ryan Kesler ($6.875M) and behind Evander Kane and James van Riemsdyk ($7M). The situation with Nylander last season was bad, but it could've been a lot worse, and he may not be as overpaid as people think.
@Pistol Pete The cap could be up $8-15 million by 2021-22, or a difference of 9.6% to 17.24% ($87.5M - $94.5M). That's a lot higher than inflation, bud. And looking at his cap hit + that increase, it's a blow that doesn't hurt as much as most people think.
They didn’t. Chicago didn’t at least. Once they gave Kane and Toews their money they had to get rid of their other star players right away, and they haven’t been as good since. The leafs, and other young teams don’t have the same luxury because young players make so much right away in the new nhl.
He makes excellent points and pretty much sums up what's wrong with how Dubas runs his team. Signing Tavares was one of the most greedy and stupid things somebody could possibly do when their roster was already stacked.
I love Bob and understand and agree for the most part with what he is saying. But, once Dubas signed Tavares, he had to realize that one of the three in Nylander, Mariner of Mathews had to be sacrificed in the form of a trade. Rational: 1) Given the trend with similar young players and their performance, the contracts for all 3 would be high $ and they wouldn't be able to accomodate them and 2) have enough money left over for to strengthen the back end to compete with the likes of Boston and Tampa. While I can't no for certain but I don't get the sense that Dubas pursued the trade market for Nylander as hard as he could of. Dubas also panicked after the Nylander deal and his lousy start. After 21 games in December and January, Nylander had 1 goal, 5 assists, was a -7 and had a total of only 38 shots on goal (1.8 a game) AWEFUL. On Jan 24th the Leafs had an extended All Star break until Feb 1st. During that time Dubas heard the rumblings given Nylander's lack of production and the tailspin the team was in. (losing 7 of their last 11 games) So how did Dubas respond? He was close to signing Mathews cause his agent clearly saw this as the time to strike for the money (cause waiting till summer would put their max dollars effort at risk) A deal in principle was agreed to but not officially signed until Feb 5, 2019. Why did Dubas wait? Because he had to make a deal to bring a proven defenseman into the team to make up for not trading Nylander for defensive strength earlier. So he traded for Jake Muzzin on January 28, 2019. I like Jake and what he brings, but when you think about the timing, performance of the team, performance of Nylander and the growing frustration in the market, do you really think Dubas showed poise? Now we are at risk with Mariner (he will demand top dollar and we may not be able to afford it, he could be offer sheeted and we may not be able to compete, even if we can afford him - we will lose strength and will be limited in others we can keep or how we can pursue assets where we truly need them) Dubas will go down as just another John Ferguson Jr. or Gord Stellick. (young guys with little experience who were given a role beyond their abilities) Sad
Your delusional if you think elite players will take pay cuts because it's the "almighty" Toronto Maple Leafs. It's an unreal franchise but they've done absolutely nothing in a looooooooooong time.
That's got nothing to do with it. There's no magic boogyman. Some players are going to be willing to take a team friendly deal because there's so much sponsorship and they can pay massive bonuses but it's unrealistic to expect that from every player.
@@johnnys7875 I meen, pastrak is probably the most underpaid player in the league. He should be making like 9 million. But yea, everyone talked about the discount tavares took. Lightning were offering him like 14.5
They were playing great before Nylander returned. Had great chemistry and enthusiasm. It wouldn’t have hurt the team if Nylander sat out the year or was traded and Dubas would have gained a hell of a lot of respect. The Marner deal is now a big problem for the team. And even trading Nylander now won’t help much because they would lose face and likely have to eat some of his contract while still paying Kessel and Horton.
I said before they should've traded his rights for some defensive help, instead they payed him $7 million and after that season you can't trade him away because the Carolina's and Coyote's the teams that eat those contracts made or nearly made the playoffs and won't take them
I remember all of the media saying the same thing. How we should trade him to Carolina for Slavin, or LA for Muzzin.... Wait we got Muzzin and still have Nylander? How did that happen?
This Guy Carolina made it clear Dougie Hamilton was available moron. A player that literally checks every box on the leafs wanted list. Good lord some people are dumb. 58.1% Corsica, 6’6” 240 lbs, right handed defence born in Toronto. That’s what we need (and could have had)on our team.
The only problem with the signing of Nylander at the time is that they didn’t turn around and kick his ass out the door for playing hardball.Its just a business right.Thats all I keep hearing from the player when it comes their precious money.Well GM’s have the same luxury for trading a player.
@Carleton Rutherford Not sure being near top 50 in scoring would be 'middle of the pack'. And yes, in terms of cap hit % that's where were at now in the NHL.
This was the Leafs best year to win the cup, and they had close to 4 million in cap space left, and should of went out and got another defenseman. Now in order to resign a combination of Marner, Kapanen, and Johnsson, they are going to have to trade kadri, Nylander, and Marleau, which all of them will be difficult, based on Kadri's attitude, Nylanders lack or production, and Marleaus NTC, and 6.25 million salary.
Laine isn't worth what he will be asking his head isn't in the game enough and has big time slumps every season yeah he can score but 2 months out of the 6 he plays.
@Michael OConnor they spoke about him briefly. I agree with you about his head in the game and how good ge could be if not distracted maybe he'll change but for now meh. Nylander fucked a lot of GM's
@Michael OConnor ... think laine is struggling.. Check out number 3 in that draft.. Was said Laine was reason Pulj went so high. Now I think they both are flopping
@Tearjerker never heard about any of this maybe he did but still don't explain the dips each year. Anyways we could beat this subject to death everyone has ideas about him or defending him I still think he needs to work things out somehow. I don't dislike the guy wish he didn't go 4 months a year not scoring. He has the potential to get 40-50 goals a season.
@Tearjerker yep Ive heard the stories just didnt want to start the debate. Ive heard he buys tvs in every hotel to play the game until early hrs. Kids today in hockey arent all as focused as they were back then even ig they had other things to waste time on its just easier today to loose yourself without even leaving the rooms. Many teams have banned the game already lets see if he bounces back next year
Still some stupid gm will still offer him 9 plus ,they are there own worse enemy look at free agency a complete cluster fuck every summer ,players getting crazy money and term and then they get blamed for the bad contract.
A trade would have settled the issues. Malkin may have been available this summer. Vet with winning background. Leafs are such a copy cat team, 'Chicago did it, so can we'. Carve a new path, '67!
Leafs had one year to make use of the enormous amount of talent they had. What do they do? Blow it the worst way possible with another pathetic 1st round exit to the bruins
I’m really nervous about Dubas, he’s too inexperienced. This is the best roster the leafs have had in forever...The timing for him to make rookie mistakes is not now...
Fabio d dubas brought in Tavares and muzzin. Two pieces that heavily benefitted the team. Nylander took long yes, but the potential for that contract to be a steal is sky high. Pittsburgh was able to win with 2 number 1 centres and Mediocre defense... twice. I blame Babcock more than dubas for his deployment. Hainsey on the top pair? Matthews minutes shortened. Babs is on thin ice. And he should be.
They're all overpaid if you ask me. Tired of hearing these guys say how hard they have it....so much traveling. Most men would love to play hockey for a living. Big bucks...maybe 20 mins work game night. Hang out with the guys...different cities. Waaaaaaa
Nylander would have called an hour before the deadline no matter what the offer. He should have put 6.5 on the table and called it good. No one sits out.
The boys and Bob really think the hard line would be $6.5m? with Lou? The GM that did the Rielly deal? Kadri deal? You guys REALLY think Lou would have gave more money to Nylander LOL Even Kyle said to go that high isn’t fair to Mo and Naz but he had to cave as the media would have been out for blood if Willy sat. ALSO I can tell you if Dubas can’t sign Mitch because he went way to high on Willy then Dubas Failed huge
@@techer123 it doesn't matter what team he did it with it's not like he's been giving out low contract his entire career he is the master of CBA circumventing with high front loaded contracts and find ways out like he did with Ilya, Horton-Clarkson. With the TML he gave Richard Panik 2.8 mil, Matt Martin 2.5 mil, Nikita Zaitsev 4.5 mil, Hainsey for 3 mil, Marleau for 6.25. Hyman 2.25, brown for 2.1, gave Polak 2.2 then 1 obviously over paid the first time. Two years in a row gave a 2nd rounder for a 4th line centre Lou wasn't this penny pincher you're making him out to be man seriously lol
@@techer123 those are literally all over payments lol none of those guys were worth that money. Tavares was one of the leading scorers in the regular season yet people act like he flopped. Panik, Martin and Polak are 1.5 mil MAX yet lou paid them way more and Marleau wasn't worth over 6 at this point in his career. Hyman is overpaid and Conor brown is slightly over paid his role could be done by someone making 700k and Zaitsev is awful and gets paid almost as much as morgana Reilly wtf there's no reason to think lou would have done any different except figure out how to cheat the system and get Marleau off the books. you're just biased about Dubas actually getting a top pair dman and one of the best players in the league in Tavares which fans literally begging for a top line centre and top dman for years now they have both and talented young players yet you guys are acting like the team should be made of 1 mil max AHL players.
Toronto’s lucky to have a gm as smart as dubas. The muzzin trade was awesome and nylander could very well preform closer to his average annual salary next season
I think you mean as naive as Dubas. Almost every player on the leafs is getting paid more than they're worth. Even Matthews is getting paid 3 million more than he should get.
@rzarectot7 they are better at different aspects of the game. Tavares is way better at cycling the puck , faceoffs, tipping shots, one handed stick handling and they're about even for passing
The people who say Marner is a byproduct of Tavares are dumb asf. Marner had 49 points in 49 games from Jan 1 2018--> End of playoffs 2018. This is without Tavares, mostly playing with Kadri.
I'm sure Tavares would agree that his stellar year was a product of his time with Marner. Great set up player but Marner seemed off towards the end of the season. I don't know if it's part of maturing as a player, but Marner showed more game face this year. I always enjoyed his enthusiasm out there and sadly I missed his joyous celebrations this year. He always looked too serious.
actually the stats clearly show that tavares carries all of his wingers, including marner. marner's numbers without tavares take a huge hit. tavares produces with anyone. but sure, stick to the mainstream narrative
Chris marner would still be a ppg without him and all great players get to play with other good players. Marner is not okposo or moulson. If you knew anything and watched the games you’d understand that
chol makai not to mention we’ve signed only one big name free agent. The rest are drafted. Apparently this dude doesn’t even know you buy a cup with veteran free agents from other teams( see Columbus).
Leafs Forever He had no problem shutting down Patrick Kane on the Olympic size ice during the WC. He was a plus 35 with the Marlies in their Calder Cup year. He was a plus 2 vs Washington in the playoffs while playing 20 minutes a game. While he gets in his own way handling the puck. He has decent agility and good gap control which is no small thing in today’s NHL.
He was hired without experience because the suits that run Rodgers group sports needed a compliant employee. They are the problem. Also, fans of the Leafs are jerks. That doesn't help.
@@THIS---GUY they still don't need him they already have so much on the attack and nothing in the back end. You negociate but when he held back I would have do what Yzerman did to Drouin with Tampa a few years back
@Carleton Rutherford bro you're clueless lol Nylander is a playmaker he's doing the feeding not the scoring do you even wwatch him play..? He had some of the nicest saucer passes and play making ability he's not looking to score 30 more like get closer to 50-60 assists.
@Carleton Rutherford Nylander had two 60 Pt seasons and only one slump you're the one exaggerating. Any 60 Pt playmaker in their early 20s is worth 6+ million. Before he signed the contract he had around 120 pts in 160 games that's worth the investment. He should play with Matthews but either way whatever line he plays with he's still learning the entire game and will likely bounce back to another 60+ Pt season next year which is worth every dollar regardless if he stays with the leafs or is moved. I didn't even want to draft Nylander so nice assumptions on my opinion asshat but he has produced with only one slump year after starting late so I have no issue with what he brings to the table as a playmaker.
McKenzie is spot on for sure. It is the agent pushing the pricing. The Leafs have the cash but sadly lack the experience and from that last game... lack the heart.
As an owner I will PAY one or two key top dollar players. A Franchise player earns that right perhaps. But the pie isn’t big enough for 6;people to all have big slices! I’ll cut 6 normal and 2 big slices. So give MATTHEW and MARNER and because ur a Leaf add one more... JT. Cuzz u can afford it and with bonus money. But anyone else isn’t gonna demand much more or anymore. If u do, u let someone else go. That’s the issue. Not everyone can take you to the woodshed. Let me walk regardless, and make smart contracts at smart times. Not one sure has to be a prophet to get the right team down.
bob's example is terrible. the point with nylander is if 7 is the number for both sides then there is absolutely no reason that dubas should have let it drag into december. the problem with the nylander signing is that both sides stood their ground but it was dubas who cracked which opens the door for matthews and marner to do the same thing. as bob alludes to, matthews would not sign if you don't give him the number he ended up with which was made easier because they saw that dubas will cave. it was dubas' poor decision to come out and say he'll get all 3 signed - of course he would, they're not free agents. by saying that publicly, each player camp now has leverage as it'll reflect poorly on dubas if he doesnt get the deal done. in the end he ended up signing them at or above market rates and in matthews' case not with the desired term. what's worse is most of the money is paid in signing bonuses as well. they absolutely took dubas to the woodshed in negotiations because they ended up with everything they wanted and they get paid upfront. kucherov signed quickly and for less because there is no income tax in his state so he's making more or the same amount of money even at a lesser salary.
FMichael1970 everybody in this world cares about themselves first, can you blame them... I bet if you could be the best worker at your job or make the most money you would choose the money choice.
@@tyjackson14 Everyone loves extra $$$, but you'd also like 'competent' co-workers too - right? I work in healthcare, and trust me - it's nice to have people who know what the fuck they're doing...I'm sure the same could be said for an NHL'er - they'd like to have 'competent' teammates, and not a bunch of 3rd/4th liners, and AHL quality Dmen. Problem is for the Leafs - after the kids get their $$$ - won't be much left over.
James honestly I get what you’re saying, the problem is most guys ( not all guys) in the nhl in today’s day don’t care about the success of the team as a whole, the way you care about the success about your hospital (or wherever you work in healthcare). On the bright side, the salary cap continues to increase so years from now these big contracts probably won’t look as bad.
Dplm Mac we trade Willy for a second line forward and picks if Matthews stays healthy he’ll be amazing and then we trade marner and Swede boi jonnson and sign gardener SV for gm 2019-2020
Lou signed kovalchuk to 17 year 100 million + deal so put that comment back in your pocket. Im a devils fan and set us back for years by emptying the cupboard all too often and drafting poorly more often than not in his last 5 years here over relying on past their prime old timers is what lou does
Humble suggestion: trade Melander to a place where he will play center (and thrive), get som defense and a goalie backup. Forward depth looks good enough in Toronto: JT, AM , MM and Kadri should be more than enough to win...
Bob got tripped up on the state tax disadvantage. He painted himself in a corner and had no where to go so they let him off the hook. Just admit it Bob. It's a fucking issue. We know it's an issue. It's high time more analysts just admit it for what it is.
the salary cap in hockey is too low im sorry. It helps small market teams maybe a little bit but it hurts players so much in terms of what kind of money they can make. The leafs make NBA,MLB type money as a franchise and they get to keep too much of it even with revenue sharing. At least raise the cap a substantial amount, the finances of the game are too good for teams to be low balling like this.
Dude, It literally only hurts the Leafs. Cry me a river. Everyone else can play by the rules, just because the club has more money than god doesn't mean you get to be the fucking Yankees. Play the game like every. other. team. does.
I like dubas. But he needs to fire Babcock. Babs is thinks his team is the 04 devils . If he wants to play defensive hockey he needs to do it somewhere else. We are gifted with offense on the leafs and give Matthew's 15 minutes in a game seven and he continues to love zaitsev who's the worst. Omg can him already hes stuck in old time hockey!!!
Leo lanscaper Maybe Babs noticed that the other team out scores Toronto five on five while Matthews is on the ice. Rewatch game seven...he completely stopped skating after Boston’s second goal.
comparing Nylander to Pastrnak is a joke, and everyone knows it, think about it Pastrnak got invited to the skills comp and WON in shooting accuracy. Nylander never got invited and never will.
Everybody knew he was going to mess up the good chemistry that was the Leafs before Nylander came back. Everybody. We would have been happy if he wasn’t signed.
Bob is the only analyst I agree with when he talks about these topics. He isn't bias or stupid
Bob is a legend in the biz
I also like Ferraro. Where ever he is. We lost some cable channels before
i like listening to burke!
@@Mikooth - Burkie goes full blowhard too often. He's best in small doses.
Biased*
You pissed on your credibility with your last statement.
These guys do a good job in terms of not interrupting each other. Compare it to CNN or something and it's night and day.
its called being canadian
That’s because Jeff O’Neil is an idiot and doesn’t have anything intelligent to say!!!!!
Mckenzie shut them up lol
CNN? Gross.
Who in the he double hockey sticks watches CNN
Wish McKenzie could teach Tim & Sid how to bring some content into their segments at SN.
Guess you can't teach quality anyway...
J Z Tim and Sid are ego driving off their own show. They feed off each other
J Z Completely different types of shows and segments. Can’t compare.
Yeah but let’s be real. Tim and Sid is more about comedy now
Tim and Sid have one of the most entertaining sports shows on Canadian television.
You're just salty cause they're the only show that didn't suck up to the leafs even though they're leafs fans. Tim and sid aren't afraid to go on a rant about any team.
Good call Bob McKenzie. Very well explained.
Bobs the goat... the rest of this panel should just be taking notes... but buddy in the purple tie is too busy on his cell ordering some skip the dishes...
Nylander = Overpaid by 500k by Dubas
Matthews = Overpaid by 500k by Dubas
Marleau = 6.3 million 4th liner via Lamoriello.
Zaitsev = 4.5 million 3rd pairing D via Lamoriello.
Whose mistakes will hurt the Leafs more next year?
Don't forget Dubas signing Tavares for $11M solely to win over the fans, guy is a spineless joke of a GM.
Yeah no. Matthews is a MASSIVE overpayment. At 11.6 mill he's the second highest paid player in the league, and he had 70 points for the first time in his career and was invisible (again) for game 7. Leon Draisitl gets 8.5 for the next 6 years and he just had 50 goals and 105 points as a 22 year old. Sorry but Matthews should be at 7.5-8 mill very most and Taveras at 9.
Drew Jenkins I think lamoriello’s mistakes will fuck the leafs over more. At least you could move nylander. Nobody is going to want Marleau or zaitsev
Scott Ryan he was the best leaf this season aside from andersen
matthews was the best forward for toronto in the playoffs. matthews and tavares could have gone to many teams for more than what they signed for in toronto. you don't know much about hockey, the nhl, economics, or finance in general. stick to playing house league and watching pavel barber videos.
lmao the other talk dudes got uncomfortable AF at 2:04 when he said "you guys"
????
Their expressions literally didn't change
Free Agency....A Total Joke...Greed And nothing more...
@@roberttaylo6314 you'd rather the ownership and shareholders get more than the players?
What's this woodshed analogy?
Used to be your dad would take to the woodshed and whip you when you screwed up😱
@@MW-yh9tm I thought it was a rape analogy, and found it inappropriate.
You would find it inappropriate, ya snowflake
Interesting to see this 4 years later
Leafs should’ve gotten a RHD in July.
You mean not signing Tavares makes it easier to sign your home grown guys? Gasp! It like I was saying that back on July 1st..oh wait I was. I mean Bob's right, it would be a slower build but you keep the band together. It's easy for me saying it as a fan and not a GM of a team, especially in a market like TO and especially when they haven't won in forever, but it was/is the truth.
Great title... Literally the first question asked contradicts the title.
With the upcoming negotiations with Marner, I'm sure Daddy Nylander has told Mini Nylander not to buy that condo downtown quite yet.
"I guess we'll see." Absolutely right.
Agreed about Tavares. As well as he played, and I know people think he could have got more elsewhere, the Leafs could not, and cannot afford Tavares, Nylander, Mathews, and Marner.
Actually, it is $7.5 (45m x 6 years). The cap hit is lower starting this year because it was higher in 2018-19.
It’s pretty simple really. If you don’t pay the top players then they’ll go somewhere else. I have no problem with the Nylander deal. If he bounces back next year it will be a good contract. It’s not complicated. If you want the talent you have to pay and make it work within the cap.
It's confirmation bias. A lot of the people saying the Nylander deal is terrible are the same people who were saying to trade him for a shut-down defenceman going all the way back to July 1st when the Leafs signed Tavares. And now they still want to trade him for a top 4 d-man, even though they claim he sucks and is way over-payed.
BOB is the new NORM Cheers
I said all along that the deal that would really handcuff the Leafs would be the Marleau signing. They should never have signed Marleau, and I have great respect for the player and the man. From a business standpoint and a developmental standpoint, signing Marleau for three years and 6 million per year - taking away important ice time from a young player to develop and then not being able to make a deadline deal for another defenceman prior to the playoffs this year sunk the Leafs. They rolled the dice on Marleau, wrongly believing he might get them a cup. It didn't seem like it might be a cap problem at the time. Then they got really lucky signing Tavares. Next year was going to be their year regardless, if Lamoriello had stayed the course. Now, even that scenario is in jeopardy! The Leafs may now be destined to be a good team for quite some time, just not a championship team. Thanks Lou!
Bob is bang on about how the city talks about the Nylander deal.
You can stop at putting Lou's name in there for being a tough negotiator, he gave Z a 7 year 5 plus mil deal. Was that a good deal? It's worse then Nylander's.
John Rumble Zaitsev makes 4.5M.
This IS NOT hindsight,I never wanted Nylander signed for that kind of money because it means losing roster players and he just was not worth it.
Nylander will be a very good player for years to come...think long on these deals...all will be fine...go leafs go
At least for the Leafs, Nylander's cap hit per Spotrac from 2019-20 until 2023-24 is $6.962M and the Salary Cap is going to grow to a degree between now and then for three reasons.
- First, the NHL is actually doing a good job year-over-year at generating revenue. Revenue from 2017-18 was up 63.3% from 2007-08 per Statista.
- Second, Seattle's NHL team is joining the league in 2021-22 which should increase HRR.
- Third, the television deal in the United States is up in 2012-22 with NBC Sports. In the current TV deal, the NHL receives $200M a year from NBC Sports, and that's likely to grow to around $220M-$250M from whatever broadcast partner(s) the National Hockey League works with. Which does affect HRR, and affects the Salary Cap.
If Nylander had a cap hit of $6.962M this season instead of $10.2M, that would rank for 30th among all forwards in the NHL in front of Ryan Kesler ($6.875M) and behind Evander Kane and James van Riemsdyk ($7M). The situation with Nylander last season was bad, but it could've been a lot worse, and he may not be as overpaid as people think.
@Pistol Pete The cap could be up $8-15 million by 2021-22, or a difference of 9.6% to 17.24% ($87.5M - $94.5M). That's a lot higher than inflation, bud. And looking at his cap hit + that increase, it's a blow that doesn't hurt as much as most people think.
How did Chicago do it and pitspurgh?????
Toronto has pretty much did what Lebron did for the NBA, they let the stars dictate their own destiny
They didn’t. Chicago didn’t at least. Once they gave Kane and Toews their money they had to get rid of their other star players right away, and they haven’t been as good since. The leafs, and other young teams don’t have the same luxury because young players make so much right away in the new nhl.
Liam Rasmussen what you talking about? Chicago won 3 cups with amazing starr players and paid them all. Just recently they got rid of others.
Should have TRADED Nylander...now the precedent that Dubas will cave in negotiations. Oh and don't promise any player that they won't be traded.
For a dman
they didn't have to sign Tavares. - it's a tough situation no doubt but don't cry about not being able to sign your draftees.
Tavares is a selfish cherry picker. That is why the Islanders improved big when he left !
I think Dubas had his hand tied in regard to Tavares, who wrapped himself up in Leafs merch and presented himself at MLSE's doorstep.
He makes excellent points and pretty much sums up what's wrong with how Dubas runs his team. Signing Tavares was one of the most greedy and stupid things somebody could possibly do when their roster was already stacked.
I love Bob and understand and agree for the most part with what he is saying. But, once Dubas signed Tavares, he had to realize that one of the three in Nylander, Mariner of Mathews had to be sacrificed in the form of a trade. Rational: 1) Given the trend with similar young players and their performance, the contracts for all 3 would be high $ and they wouldn't be able to accomodate them and 2) have enough money left over for to strengthen the back end to compete with the likes of Boston and Tampa. While I can't no for certain but I don't get the sense that Dubas pursued the trade market for Nylander as hard as he could of. Dubas also panicked after the Nylander deal and his lousy start. After 21 games in December and January, Nylander had 1 goal, 5 assists, was a -7 and had a total of only 38 shots on goal (1.8 a game) AWEFUL. On Jan 24th the Leafs had an extended All Star break until Feb 1st. During that time Dubas heard the rumblings given Nylander's lack of production and the tailspin the team was in. (losing 7 of their last 11 games) So how did Dubas respond? He was close to signing Mathews cause his agent clearly saw this as the time to strike for the money (cause waiting till summer would put their max dollars effort at risk) A deal in principle was agreed to but not officially signed until Feb 5, 2019. Why did Dubas wait? Because he had to make a deal to bring a proven defenseman into the team to make up for not trading Nylander for defensive strength earlier. So he traded for Jake Muzzin on January 28, 2019. I like Jake and what he brings, but when you think about the timing, performance of the team, performance of Nylander and the growing frustration in the market, do you really think Dubas showed poise? Now we are at risk with Mariner (he will demand top dollar and we may not be able to afford it, he could be offer sheeted and we may not be able to compete, even if we can afford him - we will lose strength and will be limited in others we can keep or how we can pursue assets where we truly need them) Dubas will go down as just another John Ferguson Jr. or Gord Stellick. (young guys with little experience who were given a role beyond their abilities) Sad
Cap needs to go up. Too many USA teams dragging us down. Meanwhile Leafs are propping up $$ for them. 💩
I know it's fucking bs
At least we have two things in the near future to look forward to in terms of cap rising. New Seattle franchise & the revenue from gambling
Your delusional if you think elite players will take pay cuts because it's the "almighty" Toronto Maple Leafs. It's an unreal franchise but they've done absolutely nothing in a looooooooooong time.
Yea, because tavares didnt take a home town discount.... marner will be the same. They grew up in Toronto and dreamed of playing for them
That's got nothing to do with it. There's no magic boogyman. Some players are going to be willing to take a team friendly deal because there's so much sponsorship and they can pay massive bonuses but it's unrealistic to expect that from every player.
@@mr.montana2654 Tavares at 11m is a discount? I can have 2 Pastrnak for the same price as 1 Tavares 😂
@@johnnys7875 I meen, pastrak is probably the most underpaid player in the league. He should be making like 9 million. But yea, everyone talked about the discount tavares took. Lightning were offering him like 14.5
Sponsorship dollars are massive playing for the Leafs. That has to be a factor in the decision or the player is an idiot.
Is that seth MacFarlane? 😂
This dudes even more gay tho
Benny B this 2019 can’t call someone gay. I’d delete that might ruin your entire life
@@austonsplatpoo1705 not sorry if facts hurt someone's feelings
Benny B lol I was being a smart ass
@@austonsplatpoo1705 hahahaha shit sorry dude hahaha
They were playing great before Nylander returned. Had great chemistry and enthusiasm. It wouldn’t have hurt the team if Nylander sat out the year or was traded and Dubas would have gained a hell of a lot of respect. The Marner deal is now a big problem for the team. And even trading Nylander now won’t help much because they would lose face and likely have to eat some of his contract while still paying Kessel and Horton.
not sure anyone knows the sport from an insider's perspective like Bob.
I said before they should've traded his rights for some defensive help, instead they payed him $7 million and after that season you can't trade him away because the Carolina's and Coyote's the teams that eat those contracts made or nearly made the playoffs and won't take them
The point you're missing is Nylander isn't worth 2 million
The day that the NHL season started and Nylander wasn't dressed to play for the Leafs, Dubas should've traded him for a defenseman.
He had 122 pts in 160 games the last two seasons prior to this year idiot that's worth every dollar. If he had a 75+ Pt season next year it's worth it
I remember all of the media saying the same thing. How we should trade him to Carolina for Slavin, or LA for Muzzin.... Wait we got Muzzin and still have Nylander? How did that happen?
@@2point5falbosky we traded a first so bet the future for the more present. We could use more defensive dmen in the first round
This Guy Carolina made it clear Dougie Hamilton was available moron. A player that literally checks every box on the leafs wanted list. Good lord some people are dumb. 58.1% Corsica, 6’6” 240 lbs, right handed defence born in Toronto. That’s what we need (and could have had)on our team.
The only problem with the signing of Nylander at the time is that they didn’t turn around and kick his ass out the door for playing hardball.Its just a business right.Thats all I keep hearing from the player when it comes their precious money.Well GM’s have the same luxury for trading a player.
The reality is Nylander is one bounce back season (70+ pts) away from his contract being a steal.
He will bounce back next year, and it will be a steal
@@pahul79 I agree.
@Carleton Rutherford Not sure being near top 50 in scoring would be 'middle of the pack'. And yes, in terms of cap hit % that's where were at now in the NHL.
This was the Leafs best year to win the cup, and they had close to 4 million in cap space left, and should of went out and got another defenseman. Now in order to resign a combination of Marner, Kapanen, and Johnsson, they are going to have to trade kadri, Nylander, and Marleau, which all of them will be difficult, based on Kadri's attitude, Nylanders lack or production, and Marleaus NTC, and 6.25 million salary.
Laine isn't worth what he will be asking his head isn't in the game enough and has big time slumps every season yeah he can score but 2 months out of the 6 he plays.
@Michael OConnor they spoke about him briefly. I agree with you about his head in the game and how good ge could be if not distracted maybe he'll change but for now meh. Nylander fucked a lot of GM's
@Michael OConnor ... think laine is struggling..
Check out number 3 in that draft.. Was said Laine was reason Pulj went so high.
Now I think they both are flopping
@Tearjerker never heard about any of this maybe he did but still don't explain the dips each year. Anyways we could beat this subject to death everyone has ideas about him or defending him I still think he needs to work things out somehow. I don't dislike the guy wish he didn't go 4 months a year not scoring. He has the potential to get 40-50 goals a season.
@Tearjerker yep Ive heard the stories just didnt want to start the debate. Ive heard he buys tvs in every hotel to play the game until early hrs. Kids today in hockey arent all as focused as they were back then even ig they had other things to waste time on its just easier today to loose yourself without even leaving the rooms. Many teams have banned the game already lets see if he bounces back next year
Still some stupid gm will still offer him 9 plus ,they are there own worse enemy look at free agency a complete cluster fuck every summer ,players getting crazy money and term and then they get blamed for the bad contract.
Looking back, Jets were geniuses to not sign Laine and Trouba.
A trade would have settled the issues. Malkin may have been available this summer. Vet with winning background. Leafs are such a copy cat team, 'Chicago did it, so can we'. Carve a new path, '67!
No. The real question is how well does Dubas judge hockey talent? Is Nylander a 7million dollar a year player?
Leafs had one year to make use of the enormous amount of talent they had. What do they do? Blow it the worst way possible with another pathetic 1st round exit to the bruins
I’m really nervous about Dubas, he’s too inexperienced. This is the best roster the leafs have had in forever...The timing for him to make rookie mistakes is not now...
Chirpzie he’s doing a fine job. Give him time. Has to correct some of Lou’s old mistakes like Marleau and zaitzev. Then it’ll be fine
Agreed dubas is a msle pet project dont trust him. They should have kept lamereu
Fabio d dubas brought in Tavares and muzzin. Two pieces that heavily benefitted the team. Nylander took long yes, but the potential for that contract to be a steal is sky high. Pittsburgh was able to win with 2 number 1 centres and Mediocre defense... twice. I blame Babcock more than dubas for his deployment. Hainsey on the top pair? Matthews minutes shortened. Babs is on thin ice. And he should be.
All of the CORE FOUR SUCK IN THE PLAYOFFS EVERY STICKING YEAR. TRADE ALL 4.
Interesting!
They're all overpaid if you ask me.
Tired of hearing these guys say how hard they have it....so much traveling. Most men would love to play hockey for a living. Big bucks...maybe 20 mins work game night. Hang out with the guys...different cities. Waaaaaaa
@@davidburt4545 Ya ok....Dave.
Yeah they make a lot... But it's still nothing compared to the other major sports. And it is the toughest of all of them.
Nylander would have called an hour before the deadline no matter what the offer. He should have put 6.5 on the table and called it good. No one sits out.
The boys and Bob really think the hard line would be $6.5m? with Lou? The GM that did the Rielly deal? Kadri deal? You guys REALLY think Lou would have gave more money to Nylander LOL Even Kyle said to go that high isn’t fair to Mo and Naz but he had to cave as the media would have been out for blood if Willy sat. ALSO I can tell you if Dubas can’t sign Mitch because he went way to high on Willy then Dubas Failed huge
Lou gave out some of the biggest contracts in nhl history wtf
This Guy not here in Toronto and that’s what is being discussed
@@techer123 it doesn't matter what team he did it with it's not like he's been giving out low contract his entire career he is the master of CBA circumventing with high front loaded contracts and find ways out like he did with Ilya, Horton-Clarkson.
With the TML he gave Richard Panik 2.8 mil, Matt Martin 2.5 mil, Nikita Zaitsev 4.5 mil, Hainsey for 3 mil, Marleau for 6.25. Hyman 2.25, brown for 2.1, gave Polak 2.2 then 1 obviously over paid the first time. Two years in a row gave a 2nd rounder for a 4th line centre
Lou wasn't this penny pincher you're making him out to be man seriously lol
This Guy all you posted is fair deals compared to the overpayment Look I don’t care as long as Dubas fixes his mistake
@@techer123 those are literally all over payments lol none of those guys were worth that money. Tavares was one of the leading scorers in the regular season yet people act like he flopped. Panik, Martin and Polak are 1.5 mil MAX yet lou paid them way more and Marleau wasn't worth over 6 at this point in his career. Hyman is overpaid and Conor brown is slightly over paid his role could be done by someone making 700k and Zaitsev is awful and gets paid almost as much as morgana Reilly wtf there's no reason to think lou would have done any different except figure out how to cheat the system and get Marleau off the books.
you're just biased about Dubas actually getting a top pair dman and one of the best players in the league in Tavares which fans literally begging for a top line centre and top dman for years now they have both and talented young players yet you guys are acting like the team should be made of 1 mil max AHL players.
Kucherov resigned in Tampa because their team is good and there is no state tax so he is making big money
Toronto’s lucky to have a gm as smart as dubas. The muzzin trade was awesome and nylander could very well preform closer to his average annual salary next season
I think you mean as naive as Dubas. Almost every player on the leafs is getting paid more than they're worth. Even Matthews is getting paid 3 million more than he should get.
R ,T if the leafs let any of those guys walk you’d be crying about how bad dubas was. Consider his perspective a bit
@@fakename7906 Even then, he doesn't know how to drive a hard bargain and the agents know that.
Mackenzie is so much smarter than o Neil.
The agents like to call Dubas "Santa Claus".
Damn it
I'm so confused. Tavares is better than Matthews but Matthews made more money as an RFA???
Tavares is also 8 years older
@rzarectot7 they are better at different aspects of the game. Tavares is way better at cycling the puck , faceoffs, tipping shots, one handed stick handling and they're about even for passing
Tavares got 13.5 AAV x 7 from San Jose and 12 x 8 from NYI. He took a paycut to sign with TO.
The people who say Marner is a byproduct of Tavares are dumb asf. Marner had 49 points in 49 games from Jan 1 2018--> End of playoffs 2018. This is without Tavares, mostly playing with Kadri.
Kadri is hardly a slouch. Not on the same level of Tavares, but certainly not a fourth liner.
I'm sure Tavares would agree that his stellar year was a product of his time with Marner. Great set up player but Marner seemed off towards the end of the season. I don't know if it's part of maturing as a player, but Marner showed more game face this year. I always enjoyed his enthusiasm out there and sadly I missed his joyous celebrations this year. He always looked too serious.
He played mostly with Bozak and JVR
actually the stats clearly show that tavares carries all of his wingers, including marner. marner's numbers without tavares take a huge hit. tavares produces with anyone. but sure, stick to the mainstream narrative
Chris marner would still be a ppg without him and all great players get to play with other good players. Marner is not okposo or moulson. If you knew anything and watched the games you’d understand that
I love him, but marleau has contract they can spare if needed
Zaits should be moved. Maybe Connor Brown
No move and no one outside of San Jose going for a nostalgia trip is going to want him - unless you retain like half his salary.
Toronto is proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot buy the Stanley cup.
chol makai not to mention we’ve signed only one big name free agent. The rest are drafted. Apparently this dude doesn’t even know you buy a cup with veteran free agents from other teams( see Columbus).
You do realize that nobody can buy a cup --- that's why they brought in the salary cap
Dubas signed Marincin for another year ffs .... there’s how I perceive Dubas ...
Leafs Forever an AHL D who can play NHL minutes
Gordon Graham no - ECHL player at best - who shouldn’t even be considered NHL caliber !
Leafs Forever He had no problem shutting down Patrick Kane on the Olympic size ice during the WC. He was a plus 35 with the Marlies in their Calder Cup year. He was a plus 2 vs Washington in the playoffs while playing 20 minutes a game. While he gets in his own way handling the puck. He has decent agility and good gap control which is no small thing in today’s NHL.
I disagree. Matthew's and Marner are over paid. We can see that now that Tavares is out
He was hired without experience because the suits that run Rodgers group sports needed a compliant employee.
They are the problem.
Also, fans of the Leafs are jerks.
That doesn't help.
Bruins won the series....leafs have tavares, matthews n nylander n Bruins won! Yeah baby!
6.96 actually leafs came up 960 000 willy came down 1.4 million from his ask of 8AVV actually if your going too report do it right TSN
The bottom line is the Leafs are a good team but obviously still missing many pieces to be able to seriously compete for the cup ,
And word is they are kinda soft. Don't know how you fix that with this group.
they should have held out or trade him Nylander is over rated and will cost you new signings.
He had 120 pts in 160 games the two prior years no reason not to invest. He had one bad year
@@THIS---GUY they still don't need him they already have so much on the attack and nothing in the back end. You negociate but when he held back I would have do what Yzerman did to Drouin with Tampa a few years back
@@taxi615 you csnt compare contacts from Ontario to Florida man the income tax is no where close
@Carleton Rutherford bro you're clueless lol Nylander is a playmaker he's doing the feeding not the scoring do you even wwatch him play..? He had some of the nicest saucer passes and play making ability he's not looking to score 30 more like get closer to 50-60 assists.
@Carleton Rutherford Nylander had two 60 Pt seasons and only one slump you're the one exaggerating. Any 60 Pt playmaker in their early 20s is worth 6+ million. Before he signed the contract he had around 120 pts in 160 games that's worth the investment. He should play with Matthews but either way whatever line he plays with he's still learning the entire game and will likely bounce back to another 60+ Pt season next year which is worth every dollar regardless if he stays with the leafs or is moved.
I didn't even want to draft Nylander so nice assumptions on my opinion asshat but he has produced with only one slump year after starting late so I have no issue with what he brings to the table as a playmaker.
No Loyalty, every one wants the mighty buck. Thats where their loyaly lies. ME ME ME, But they cant get past the first round
which players actually sit out, get real bob
Dubas is ruining the leafs lmao way to go dork!
Yeah because lou signing Marleau and zaits were such expert long sighted moves
McKenzie is spot on for sure. It is the agent pushing the pricing. The Leafs have the cash but sadly lack the experience and from that last game... lack the heart.
Nooooooooolaaaaannnnnderrrrrrrrrr 27 pts. Leivo 24 pts. Enough said
they're acting as if lou has never made a bad contract. Except they conveniently forget Martin, Polak, Zaitsev
with nylander, everyone at my work was saying "let him go" all throughout oct, nov, dec........today, nothing has changed
As an owner I will PAY one or two key top dollar players. A Franchise player earns that right perhaps. But the pie isn’t big enough for 6;people to all have big slices! I’ll cut 6 normal and 2 big slices.
So give MATTHEW and MARNER and because ur a Leaf add one more... JT. Cuzz u can afford it and with bonus money.
But anyone else isn’t gonna demand much more or anymore. If u do, u let someone else go.
That’s the issue. Not everyone can take you to the woodshed.
Let me walk regardless, and make smart contracts at smart times. Not one sure has to be a prophet to get the right team down.
lol you're not an owner. you won't pay anyone.
The Leafs got greedy by signing Tavares, and now they'll pay for it...
Salaries are also a d**k measuring contest for these guys.
bob's example is terrible. the point with nylander is if 7 is the number for both sides then there is absolutely no reason that dubas should have let it drag into december. the problem with the nylander signing is that both sides stood their ground but it was dubas who cracked which opens the door for matthews and marner to do the same thing. as bob alludes to, matthews would not sign if you don't give him the number he ended up with which was made easier because they saw that dubas will cave. it was dubas' poor decision to come out and say he'll get all 3 signed - of course he would, they're not free agents. by saying that publicly, each player camp now has leverage as it'll reflect poorly on dubas if he doesnt get the deal done.
in the end he ended up signing them at or above market rates and in matthews' case not with the desired term. what's worse is most of the money is paid in signing bonuses as well. they absolutely took dubas to the woodshed in negotiations because they ended up with everything they wanted and they get paid upfront.
kucherov signed quickly and for less because there is no income tax in his state so he's making more or the same amount of money even at a lesser salary.
Just gotta love these NHL'ers today...Big $$$ immediately after their ELC...Apparently $$$ > The Cup.
FMichael1970 everybody in this world cares about themselves first, can you blame them... I bet if you could be the best worker at your job or make the most money you would choose the money choice.
@@tyjackson14 Everyone loves extra $$$, but you'd also like 'competent' co-workers too - right?
I work in healthcare, and trust me - it's nice to have people who know what the fuck they're doing...I'm sure the same could be said for an NHL'er - they'd like to have 'competent' teammates, and not a bunch of 3rd/4th liners, and AHL quality Dmen.
Problem is for the Leafs - after the kids get their $$$ - won't be much left over.
One day the best player will be eating half the Cap, surrounded by AHLers. 50 teams in the league...good times.
James honestly I get what you’re saying, the problem is most guys ( not all guys) in the nhl in today’s day don’t care about the success of the team as a whole, the way you care about the success about your hospital (or wherever you work in healthcare). On the bright side, the salary cap continues to increase so years from now these big contracts probably won’t look as bad.
FMichael1970 ^^
Yup , he would of been gone , wouldn't have sign at all
I knew the minute we lost Lou and had Kyle come in as the guy we’d be in trouble. I don’t trust Kyle he’s not good enough
lucas Rozmus wtf are u saying kid yes the Nylander contract sucks but he signed him and he can still be traded he’s good much better than u probably
Dplm Mac we trade Willy for a second line forward and picks if Matthews stays healthy he’ll be amazing and then we trade marner and Swede boi jonnson and sign gardener SV for gm 2019-2020
Lou signed kovalchuk to 17 year 100 million + deal so put that comment back in your pocket. Im a devils fan and set us back for years by emptying the cupboard all too often and drafting poorly more often than not in his last 5 years here over relying on past their prime old timers is what lou does
40 million for 4 players after Marner is signed. Not much left.
Bob’s the best
@ryanconor89
none of this shit matters.. they'll make some changes and we have to wait until next april to see if it will change or not.
Humble suggestion: trade Melander to a place where he will play center (and thrive), get som defense and a goalie backup. Forward depth looks good enough in Toronto: JT, AM , MM and Kadri should be more than enough to win...
Bob got tripped up on the state tax disadvantage. He painted himself in a corner and had no where to go so they let him off the hook. Just admit it Bob. It's a fucking issue. We know it's an issue. It's high time more analysts just admit it for what it is.
These guys just talk.
the salary cap in hockey is too low im sorry. It helps small market teams maybe a little bit but it hurts players so much in terms of what kind of money they can make. The leafs make NBA,MLB type money as a franchise and they get to keep too much of it even with revenue sharing. At least raise the cap a substantial amount, the finances of the game are too good for teams to be low balling like this.
Dude, It literally only hurts the Leafs. Cry me a river. Everyone else can play by the rules, just because the club has more money than god doesn't mean you get to be the fucking Yankees. Play the game like every. other. team. does.
Bob gulps peines
App you pylons forget that nowherelander and marney sat out until they got what they wanted in salary! Get the 2 poison ☠️ players out of here
Marner isn’t gonna get as much as people think I bet he gets 9.5
Not a chance is is better than both mathews and tavares
Every Leafs fan after the Tavares signing : wEre WinNing tHe cuP BoYs
*Another 1st round exit* 😅👌
Habs went golfing way before the leafs did, they didn't even make it to the first round.
@@just10NU didnt even make it to the 2nd round with a super stacked team Lool stay salty leafs fan
I like dubas. But he needs to fire Babcock. Babs is thinks his team is the 04 devils . If he wants to play defensive hockey he needs to do it somewhere else. We are gifted with offense on the leafs and give Matthew's 15 minutes in a game seven and he continues to love zaitsev who's the worst. Omg can him already hes stuck in old time hockey!!!
Leo lanscaper Maybe Babs noticed that the other team out scores Toronto five on five while Matthews is on the ice. Rewatch game seven...he completely stopped skating after Boston’s second goal.
comparing Nylander to Pastrnak is a joke, and everyone knows it, think about it Pastrnak got invited to the skills comp and WON in shooting accuracy. Nylander never got invited and never will.
Harry Potter sucks!
Everybody knew he was going to mess up the good chemistry that was the Leafs before Nylander came back. Everybody.
We would have been happy if he wasn’t signed.
Dubas thinks he is in the NBA lol
Yeh what about Marner's contract??? Sucked!
Bye Marner and good riddance.
Stop fucking talking about the leafs. There are 30 other teams in the league talk about them too why don't ya
With Tavares this was to be the leafs year. Everybody in management believed that. Now what?