*HANDBOOK FOR MATCH OFFICIALS:* *10.5 Visibility* 10.5.1 The primary requirement of the current service law is for the server to ensure that the receiver can see the ball throughout the service, and the umpire or assistant umpire must be satisfied that this is the case. The umpire or assistant umpire should look to see that the ball is not hidden from the receiver at any stage by any part of the body, or anything he or she or his or her doubles partner is wearing or carrying, and that the server’s free arm, which includes the free hand, is moved from the space between the ball and the net, as soon as he or she releases the ball. 10.5.2 The ball must be above the level of the playing surface at the start of service. There is, however, no specific requirement for the receiver to be able to see the racket throughout service, and the server may quite legitimately begin service with the racket concealed, for example, behind his or her back. 10.5.3 From their positions in line with the net it may be impractical for the umpire and/or the assistant umpire to judge whether the ball is struck illegally if it is struck close to the end line or beside a player’s body. It is, however, the responsibility of the player to serve so that the correctness of his or her service action can be seen and if he or she serves near the margins of illegality he or she runs the risk of being penalised.
At a tournament I faulted my own team members, just as I did with the opponents, because I was decided as the umpire for certain games. My team knew that I'm strict and hate unfair play, so they accepted it. But the opponts where baffled that I wouldn't accept the bullshit from my own team aswell. We lost the matches in the final result but everyone had a great time complimenting each nice really from all parties. It was the most joyful defeat we ever had and made friends along the way. My team still respects and likes me and the opponents invite me on a regular basis to play with and against them.
From this cam position you cannot see ANYTHING as the spectator so discussing here doesn't make any sense. Why wasn't the Hawkeye system used? There were also several other matches where hard discussions came up. Freitas lost his match when the umpire started to fault his serves. Also there from the cam position it was impossible to judge if the serves were correct or not. But for the umpire it was totally impossible as Freitas is a lefty and the umpire was simply not able to see and judge. Overall it's a shame that the Hawkeye system is not commonly used at big tournaments like in Budapest. To the situation of Truls: even when taking a serve the correct way this doesn't necessarily mean he was able to read the spin correctly. You can try to guess or somehow predict the spin and act accordingly. But it also means that you have lost control to the situation and this is highly distracting. So I would say his complaints were reasonable but in vain. If the umpire does not react the opponent can do whatever he wants to and you are simply f*cked.
Why does the fact that Freitas is a leftie have any relevance? There is are two umpires, one on each side of the table, both are responsible for ensuring the legality of the serve. As rule 10.5.1 says - "the umpire or assistant umpire should look to see that the ball is not concealed from the receiver at any stage...". So whether the server is a "leftie" or a "rightie" has no bearing on the ability of the umpires to determine the legality of the serve.
2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises *at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand* and then falls without touching anything before being struck. The above rule refutes your claim that the ball must only rise 16 cm. Therefore, it must rise 16 cm **after** it leaves the free hand.
Wang is obviously throwing the ball towards his body, which allows him to create a lot more spin. Doesn't matter wether Truls can see the Ball or not, it's illegal anyways. And you can see by Truls Body language, that this is the thing he's complaining about.
You are wrong about it being illegal regarding the ball travelling backwards. Apologies for not giving a full explanation but you can read it in the Handbook for Match Officials.
@@mariusmax3452 I am a qualified umpire and you are wrong. I understand why you say what you say but in this case the ball is not travelling far enough backwards considering the height he is throwing the ball. However the serve is illegal because at one point his head hides the ball.
Your demonstration of the hook serve is also hidden at 5:43. That's not a very good example. Edit: and 5:46, and 5:49, and it's not vertically thrown, and it may not reach the minimum height requirement...🙄
The toss is very much "vertical".... have you seen how the Chinese B team (the youngsters) serve!? Their toss is like 45% from vertical, the ball literally went from the middle of the table and ended at the side of the table at contact but the "umpire" never call out their serve. Well, in this case I will say it's those internal Chinese games issue where the empire never call anything...
The most unprofessional thing in table tennis is: "if both players are fine with it, then...", no, that is the biggest problem, that is what creates the debates ("never had my serve been called illegal before"). TT needs 1. a clear and easy to control service rule (do not forget, the rule is also valid for all the other levels without possible video and sometimes without umpires) and 2. strict control of the rule 100% of the time, right now it´s a joke in both directions, calling it is wrong as it is not consistent and not calling it is wrong as it is unfair to some players. Some say TT is one of the most fair sports in the world but the service rule shows, that it´s just not as many players try to find advantages and cheat or at least bend the rule.
Player opinion and the number of likes does not define right and wrong. Rules are rules. I love how play Wang Chuqin, For me, one of the best players in the world, currently. But, i recognize his serve is illegal. (Serve toss height and impact point blocking)
gauzy point of view is definitely not honest but the main problem is to make a rule that you cannot bend with tricks. ITTF should authorize only few basics serves.
This rule would fix everything: Entire body must remain further back from the table than the ball at all times during the toss except 1) the time of release 2) when the racquet contacts the ball.
How can Gauzy's view be "not honest"? It's an opinion not a statement of fact. Unless you're accusing him of being dishonest about what his opinion is, your statement is meaningless.
Очень сложный и тонкий момент. По моему мнению, почти все игроки в подачах не идеальны. Многие, практикующие высокий подброс перемещаются, подстраиваясь под подброс, и не получают штрафа. Раз судья не штрафует- значит подача легальна.
ua-cam.com/video/OcE8h7O9Ksk/v-deo.html You're wrong here. Because he wasn't sure about the contact point as it was hidden, all he had to do was give the ball more time to move towards his body, to understand by its movement, whether it is topspin or backspin. If he'd seen the serve, he would attack the ball earlier, and would gain advantage instead of giving it to WCQ.
Just put a drill sergeant into the umpire seat with some privates 1stclass in uniform as his support to watch from the back of both players. I want to see the players complain then like little children...
Exactly what comment by Gauzy has enabled you to make such an offensive comment about his character? Has he just expressed an opinion that the serve was not illegal? In which way has he demonstrated a disregard for fair play? If anything, your comment has just shown your character rather than Gauzy's.
Simple rule fix imo. Imagine the plane going through the ball, perpendicular to the floor, parallel to the width of the table... The body must remain behind this plane (opposite side of table) ... at all times during the toss except... 1) start of the toss when the tossing hand/arm is allowed cross the plane. But must immediately be brought back after release. 2) end of toss... racquet contact... racquet hand is allowed cross the plane. All other times body will be clearly behind the ball solving visibility issues. So the body needs to be slightly further from the table than the ball is at all times during the toss... that's the root cause of these visibility issues. This way... Hugo Calderone's serve is clearly illegal since his body crosses the plane of the ball when it goes behind him. A bunch of other serves become illegal. "Ball must be visible" is too hard to enforce... keep entire body behind the ball is easier to enforce.
Open hand service means that the ball needs to be tossed without a significant lifting of the hand. One should be able to see the ball in the air. Here the ball is not even in the air. It is tossed and the bat meets the ball. There is really no toss of the ball. The hand clearly covers the ball as he rotates his wrist and he really lifts his hand too far before he serves. My issue would be that there is no toss of the ball and his service should have been called. It is almost like he lifts his hand and drops the ball!!! Illegal serve all the way!!!
First the facts : At this level of play (world ranking included) EVERY POINT is critical ! Therefore you must imagine the technicalities around this process, especially with the Chinese Super Power. They will go to the end of the tunnel to dig out decisive points! Nothing wrong here BTW, they have masters who can help in all directions of the game. Also it should be said that the talent of these guys is not human ! Quite amazing to watch. As I have said in other discussions groups is that my thought it is that until you have robotic cameras located around the tables who special "eagle eye" monitoring, we should forget about toss height, hiding, whatever it is. The game is about the magic of deception, I agree, the umpires are not capable of understanding if a #5 in the World cannot do it himself !!! Almost as if you are going to guess what a magician is doing in front of you .... hahaha ... even magicians themselves cannot understand the other guy's tricks. So we should leave it to the magic of table tennis. I believe that for the last matches they should use robotic cameras to check for certain aspects of the serve, like height and trickery with the hands for instance. At least for important title matches and only on a couple of tables because this could be expensive. The US already has AI to control camera movement. As for Wang is uses his head like any other Chinese player ... it's so easy to see this so you would have to fault all the others. The problem is not here, the biggest problem is HOW CLOSE to the table is hitting the ball, THIS TAKES precious 100's of seconds away from capturing ball speed and trajectory, which makes Truls be surprised. YES he had the correct angle BUT he was 2x100's of seconds late ! This makes the ball pop 1 or 2 cms higher than usual which will be lethal at that level. That is all.
The service rule includes that a server has the responsibility to make it clear to the umpires that a serve is legal and therefore anything borderline should be a fault.
It's surely illegal if I failed to read it 🙄😁 But if I won the point afterward it's totally legal man! Pretty sure baby Truls would not have complained if he won the point.
For the past week, WCQ has played with Kanak Jha, Hugo, Ma Long, Truls and kristian karlsson. No one complained about Wang's serve. Truls was the only one complaining about the serve lol. Karlsson still beat WCQ and he was serving like that the entire match.
Most of the TT players I know has watched WCQ serves and agreed on that he hides the serv with his body. He also in other matches serves above the table (not behind it as the ITTF rules say). WCQ is also left handed and abuses the angle the right handed player sees it from. I think ITTF umpires are afraid to point oúr the obvious.
*HANDBOOK FOR MATCH OFFICIALS:*
*10.5 Visibility*
10.5.1 The primary requirement of the current service law is for the server to ensure that the receiver can see the ball throughout the service, and the umpire or assistant umpire must be satisfied that this is the case. The umpire or assistant umpire should look to see that the ball is not hidden from the receiver at any stage by any part of the body, or anything he or she or his or her doubles partner is wearing or carrying, and that the server’s free arm, which includes the free hand, is moved from the space between the ball and the net, as soon as he or she releases the ball.
10.5.2 The ball must be above the level of the playing surface at the start of service. There is, however, no specific requirement for the receiver to be able to see the racket throughout service, and the server may quite legitimately begin service with the racket concealed, for example, behind his or her back.
10.5.3 From their positions in line with the net it may be impractical for the umpire and/or the assistant umpire to judge whether the ball is struck illegally if it is struck close to the end line or beside a player’s body. It is, however, the responsibility of the player to serve so that the correctness of his or her service action can be seen and if he or she serves near the margins of illegality he or she runs the risk of being penalised.
At a tournament I faulted my own team members, just as I did with the opponents, because I was decided as the umpire for certain games.
My team knew that I'm strict and hate unfair play, so they accepted it.
But the opponts where baffled that I wouldn't accept the bullshit from my own team aswell.
We lost the matches in the final result but everyone had a great time complimenting each nice really from all parties.
It was the most joyful defeat we ever had and made friends along the way.
My team still respects and likes me and the opponents invite me on a regular basis to play with and against them.
I often argue with my partners for them to serve legaly so that we can start to be more strict while umpiring.
From this cam position you cannot see ANYTHING as the spectator so discussing here doesn't make any sense. Why wasn't the Hawkeye system used? There were also several other matches where hard discussions came up. Freitas lost his match when the umpire started to fault his serves. Also there from the cam position it was impossible to judge if the serves were correct or not. But for the umpire it was totally impossible as Freitas is a lefty and the umpire was simply not able to see and judge. Overall it's a shame that the Hawkeye system is not commonly used at big tournaments like in Budapest.
To the situation of Truls: even when taking a serve the correct way this doesn't necessarily mean he was able to read the spin correctly. You can try to guess or somehow predict the spin and act accordingly. But it also means that you have lost control to the situation and this is highly distracting.
So I would say his complaints were reasonable but in vain. If the umpire does not react the opponent can do whatever he wants to and you are simply f*cked.
Why does the fact that Freitas is a leftie have any relevance? There is are two umpires, one on each side of the table, both are responsible for ensuring the legality of the serve. As rule 10.5.1 says - "the umpire or assistant umpire should look to see that the ball is not concealed from the receiver at any stage...". So whether the server is a "leftie" or a "rightie" has no bearing on the ability of the umpires to determine the legality of the serve.
Of you doubt if its legal or not, its illegal. If the umpire isnt satisfite, its illegal
At every level of tt the service is a big problem, I wish the ITTF could have service rules so there is no doubt
You are 100% right.
2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises *at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand* and then falls without touching anything before being struck.
The above rule refutes your claim that the ball must only rise 16 cm. Therefore, it must rise 16 cm **after** it leaves the free hand.
Wang is obviously throwing the ball towards his body, which allows him to create a lot more spin. Doesn't matter wether Truls can see the Ball or not, it's illegal anyways.
And you can see by Truls Body language, that this is the thing he's complaining about.
You are wrong about it being illegal regarding the ball travelling backwards. Apologies for not giving a full explanation but you can read it in the Handbook for Match Officials.
@@inquistive I am not wrong.
@@mariusmax3452 I am a qualified umpire and you are wrong. I understand why you say what you say but in this case the ball is not travelling far enough backwards considering the height he is throwing the ball.
However the serve is illegal because at one point his head hides the ball.
Near vertical, not near horizontal. But it must be legal the Chinese do it, so all good.@@inquistive
Your demonstration of the hook serve is also hidden at 5:43. That's not a very good example.
Edit: and 5:46, and 5:49, and it's not vertically thrown, and it may not reach the minimum height requirement...🙄
Other reason that Wang chuqin serve is illegal that he generate spin inside table lots of time.
The toss is very much "vertical".... have you seen how the Chinese B team (the youngsters) serve!? Their toss is like 45% from vertical, the ball literally went from the middle of the table and ended at the side of the table at contact but the "umpire" never call out their serve. Well, in this case I will say it's those internal Chinese games issue where the empire never call anything...
that is a problem.i'll blame the rules for it.
Between 11:56 and 11:57 you can see wang hid the contact point
In this angle
The most unprofessional thing in table tennis is: "if both players are fine with it, then...", no, that is the biggest problem, that is what creates the debates ("never had my serve been called illegal before"). TT needs 1. a clear and easy to control service rule (do not forget, the rule is also valid for all the other levels without possible video and sometimes without umpires) and 2. strict control of the rule 100% of the time, right now it´s a joke in both directions, calling it is wrong as it is not consistent and not calling it is wrong as it is unfair to some players. Some say TT is one of the most fair sports in the world but the service rule shows, that it´s just not as many players try to find advantages and cheat or at least bend the rule.
Player opinion and the number of likes does not define right and wrong. Rules are rules. I love how play Wang Chuqin, For me, one of the best players in the world, currently. But, i recognize his serve is illegal. (Serve toss height and impact point blocking)
Illegal services, Wang let the ball falling down and hit it. Where is the raise of 16cm?
gauzy point of view is definitely not honest but the main problem is to make a rule that you cannot bend with tricks. ITTF should authorize only few basics serves.
This rule would fix everything: Entire body must remain further back from the table than the ball at all times during the toss except 1) the time of release 2) when the racquet contacts the ball.
How can Gauzy's view be "not honest"? It's an opinion not a statement of fact. Unless you're accusing him of being dishonest about what his opinion is, your statement is meaningless.
It's about facts, not these assumption or theories
Очень сложный и тонкий момент. По моему мнению, почти все игроки в подачах не идеальны. Многие, практикующие высокий подброс перемещаются, подстраиваясь под подброс, и не получают штрафа. Раз судья не штрафует- значит подача легальна.
ua-cam.com/video/OcE8h7O9Ksk/v-deo.html You're wrong here. Because he wasn't sure about the contact point as it was hidden, all he had to do was give the ball more time to move towards his body, to understand by its movement, whether it is topspin or backspin. If he'd seen the serve, he would attack the ball earlier, and would gain advantage instead of giving it to WCQ.
You make a 20-minute video when in 2 seconds it's set: he doesn't throw the ball vertically.
Just put a drill sergeant into the umpire seat with some privates 1stclass in uniform as his support to watch from the back of both players.
I want to see the players complain then like little children...
put cameras bihind the table and server/receiver, then replay it when there are complaints/protests 🎉
Simon Gauzy just showed his character with his comment.
And that it's not worth much if it's about fairplay
Exactly what comment by Gauzy has enabled you to make such an offensive comment about his character? Has he just expressed an opinion that the serve was not illegal? In which way has he demonstrated a disregard for fair play? If anything, your comment has just shown your character rather than Gauzy's.
Rules of tt
#GoldenTableTennis you are using the old service rule!
Badminton and tennis got eagle eye system for in out,footbal got play back ,table tennis got empire eye?
Simple rule fix imo. Imagine the plane going through the ball, perpendicular to the floor, parallel to the width of the table... The body must remain behind this plane (opposite side of table) ... at all times during the toss except... 1) start of the toss when the tossing hand/arm is allowed cross the plane. But must immediately be brought back after release. 2) end of toss... racquet contact... racquet hand is allowed cross the plane. All other times body will be clearly behind the ball solving visibility issues.
So the body needs to be slightly further from the table than the ball is at all times during the toss... that's the root cause of these visibility issues. This way... Hugo Calderone's serve is clearly illegal since his body crosses the plane of the ball when it goes behind him. A bunch of other serves become illegal.
"Ball must be visible" is too hard to enforce... keep entire body behind the ball is easier to enforce.
Hugo serves illegal 95% of the time.
Очень точно вы сформулировали. Так будет намного яснее с подачами.
Open hand service means that the ball needs to be tossed without a significant lifting of the hand. One should be able to see the ball in the air. Here the ball is not even in the air. It is tossed and the bat meets the ball. There is really no toss of the ball. The hand clearly covers the ball as he rotates his wrist and he really lifts his hand too far before he serves. My issue would be that there is no toss of the ball and his service should have been called. It is almost like he lifts his hand and drops the ball!!! Illegal serve all the way!!!
Serve looks hidden by head and arm, and toss is towards body. Looks illegal.
First the facts : At this level of play (world ranking included) EVERY POINT is critical ! Therefore you must imagine the technicalities around this process, especially with the Chinese Super Power. They will go to the end of the tunnel to dig out decisive points! Nothing wrong here BTW, they have masters who can help in all directions of the game. Also it should be said that the talent of these guys is not human ! Quite amazing to watch.
As I have said in other discussions groups is that my thought it is that until you have robotic cameras located around the tables who special "eagle eye" monitoring, we should forget about toss height, hiding, whatever it is. The game is about the magic of deception, I agree, the umpires are not capable of understanding if a #5 in the World cannot do it himself !!!
Almost as if you are going to guess what a magician is doing in front of you .... hahaha ... even magicians themselves cannot understand the other guy's tricks.
So we should leave it to the magic of table tennis. I believe that for the last matches they should use robotic cameras to check for certain aspects of the serve, like height and trickery with the hands for instance. At least for important title matches and only on a couple of tables because this could be expensive. The US already has AI to control camera movement.
As for Wang is uses his head like any other Chinese player ... it's so easy to see this so you would have to fault all the others. The problem is not here, the biggest problem is HOW CLOSE to the table is hitting the ball, THIS TAKES precious 100's of seconds away from capturing ball speed and trajectory, which makes Truls be surprised. YES he had the correct angle BUT he was 2x100's of seconds late ! This makes the ball pop 1 or 2 cms higher than usual which will be lethal at that level. That is all.
man,that was the best vedio about this problem that i've ever seen,thx
A fair game will be enjoyed by the both players, so, both will win.
In an unfair game both players loose.
The service rule includes that a server has the responsibility to make it clear to the umpires that a serve is legal and therefore anything borderline should be a fault.
It's surely illegal if I failed to read it 🙄😁 But if I won the point afterward it's totally legal man! Pretty sure baby Truls would not have complained if he won the point.
For the past week, WCQ has played with Kanak Jha, Hugo, Ma Long, Truls and kristian karlsson. No one complained about Wang's serve. Truls was the only one complaining about the serve lol. Karlsson still beat WCQ and he was serving like that the entire match.
Most of the TT players I know has watched WCQ serves and agreed on that he hides the serv with his body. He also in other matches serves above the table (not behind it as the ITTF rules say). WCQ is also left handed and abuses the angle the right handed player sees it from. I think ITTF umpires are afraid to point oúr the obvious.